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Gates May Announce Xbox 360 DVR At CES
Via Kotaku, an article at the Seattle Times offers an interesting theory on what might be an important part of Bill Gates' keynote at CES next week. According to Times writer Brier Dudley, upgrades and licensing for the Xbox 360 could be a big new feather in Microsoft's cap: "I've speculated on my blog that Microsoft may be preparing to license the Xbox gaming platform to consumer-electronics companies. In particular, Microsoft could work with Toshiba to develop a digital video recorder with a hard-drive, high-definition HD-DVD drive and Xbox gaming capabilities. They're already allied against Sony and other backers of the Blu-ray DVD format, and Toshiba could help Xbox finally penetrate the Japanese market." Toshiba has repeatedly denied the possibility of a 360 unit with a built-in HD-DVD drive, it should be noted.
If it is true and Microsoft can get good integration with the Zune then it could be a big winner.
Hack I may even get one if they can get it is HD and will work well with Comcast.
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If MS wants to continue their business the way they always have, the xbox and xbox360 may have been part product, and part proof-of-concept to try to sell a sort of gaming-system platform, ala the Windows OS for desktop.
If Toshiba and others decided to make consumer electronics devices that happened to be 'xbox 360' compliant, or whatever the platform specification of the time happens to be, MS may decide to maintain merely the core platform specification, client software stack, and the server infrastructure of xbox live, without producing many units of their hardware implementation of the platform they dictate.
Of course, they run the *high* risk of doing so of defeating the whole point of consoles, that every console is the same hardware with the same features so game developers don't have to worry about the complexity of the user having a varying amount of central processor/graphics horsepower/memory/different optical drives. If HD-DVD got integrated and supported as a platform for games to be published on, that would walk the 360 down the path of the computer in terms of having to read 'requirements' on the box before purchase, and licensing could lead to a mess if they aren't careful on all the various components.
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Between a nice sale and gift card I bought the 360 HD-DVD addon for a song. An HD-DVD player for (practically) free that didn't take up an extra set of Component inputs, how could I loose? Plus I could now watch Heroes season 1 on HD-DVD (I missed all of the first season on TV).
Unfortunately it didn't take me too long to realize that my 360 is just too flippin' loud to enjoy movies. It's one thing if I'm gaming, but if I'm watching an old classic I'd rather not heard the buzzing of those fans. Since I was already jazzed to get Heroes I decided to return the unit and get the cheap Toshiba HD-A2 for a small price instead.
If they want to seriously consider doing this, they need to engineer the unit so it's a lot quieter or perhaps makes sure it doesn't get so loud with age.
Let someone else lose money selling XBox consoles, so MS can make money licensing the hardware and the games, and game publishers can make money selling the games themselves. So, who in the world would get on board to do this? The only way to turn a profit on the console alone would be horrendous quality.
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It won't be built in. The public image of ANOTHER version of the xbox that is more expensive than the ps3 is too damaging to the brand, even if it has new features. They wouldn't release an 360 at the current price point with the DVR built in, WAY too many upset early adopters who would be RROD their xbox on purpose.
The only way MS could do this successfully is by upgrading the HD-DVD player, keeping it at the current price point, but adding DVR functionality to the thing, even if it makes the player a little thicker for the hard drive. An "HD upgrade kit" if you will. Then get rid of the old version of the HDDVD player at fire sale prices. That way, the minority of xbox owners that bought the HDDVD players would be the only consumer base that would feel upset, but keeping the price the same would be understandable since the add-on has been around for a while, and it's sales are definately slumping.
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How will the media companies respond to this? I thought they were already fighting the idea of DVRs, or at least trying to get them to prevent commercial skipping?
Surely the media companies won't want Microsoft to allow this to happen in any form the consumer might actually want? And I'm sure anyone affiliated with Sony won't like the HD-DVD format at all.
Admittedly, if anyone has the clout to try it's Microsoft, but I'm still skeptical this would take off.
Cheers
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Consoles have always had one major advantage over PCs as a gaming platform: consistent hardware. An Xbox is an Xbox is an Xbox. When producing a game for a console, you don't need to test every possible combination of a dozen video cards, a dozen processors, a dozen motherboards, etc. You test it on an Xbox. It works on your Xbox? It works on your customer's Xbox.
I'm worried about the possibility of fragmentation that may occur here, if other companies are allowed to make their own Xboxes. Even if there are a set of standards, there's nothing stopping them from skimping on parts, or even using slightly different architectures which throw the whole thing out of whack.
3DO was an attempt to "license tech to manufacturers". It died, because it meant 3DO machines on shelves that cost a grand, and when introducing a console, it's customary to subsidize it somewhat. Nobody will pay 1000 bucks for a "made by Toshiba" Xbox 360.
But DVRs, offered through (fav cable co), with 360 tech built in, for 5-10 bucks a month, might actually be a winning formula. People are getting them anyways, why not pick the one that plays games/etc too.
Remember, the 360 as an IPTV client has been announced nearly a year ago. A switch to IPTV could be the savior of bandwidth-starved cable operators.
However, the Xbox360's media service competes with services like Comcast's On Demand, so I can't imagine they'd be all that receptive. These days, everybody wants the whole pie.
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Gates could do all kinds of things at the CES... this really ain't any kind of news.
You've been hearing the rumors for most of the second half of 2007 - Microsoft is preparing to exit the console market.
And now the reality is finally here.
After two years Microsoft has failed to find a way to fix the 360 hardware failures with even the latest models still giving the infamous RRoD right out of the box for many people. After six years and now some 7 billion dollars with the 360 essentially selling to just the US market like the first Xbox Microsoft has had enough and are looking for other hardware manufacturers to come in and pick up the pieces and try to salvage what they can of the existing Xbox infrastructure. They will never make back anywhere near the billions they've lost but at least they can bring in licensing fees on their way out of the console market.
It looks like right around middle of 2007 when the shit hit the fan up in Redmond and a bunch of messy meetings took place that decided the fate of the 360:
Microsoft finally bit the bullet and admitted to the RRoD failure problem and announced the 1.1 billion they were going to spend to keep fixing the existing failing consoles.
Peter Moore was fired
The primary Xbox first party developer left Microsoft
Two major Xbox exclusive developers Bioware and Bizarre went off to EA and Activision leaving Microsoft with pretty much just Rare and maybe one or two other minor first party developers
The worldwide sales figures showed that the 360 was selling at virtually identical sales rate across the US, Japan, and Europe making it clear that the 360 was going to be once again an almost entirely US based console
And finally Microsoft has been increasingly focused on moving Xbox technologies and services over to Vista
Microsoft obviously has decided they have had enough in the console market and are looking for someone to come in and pick up the pieces. Console hardware obviously isn't an area Microsoft can compete in. Ideally they would like to have PC developers locked into Vista exclusive titles with Microsoft pocketing console type licensing fees without having to waste billions on hardware.
The windows vista based system with don't work that well and SDV channels don't work as well.
The Panasonic Q. It was a Nintendo Game Cube with DVD player functionality added. But the game-playing guts were exactly the same as a regular Game Cube so it didn't interfere with game development.
There - I said it.
For the love of all that is holy: The XBox 360 does not need more expensive add on features!! Anyone who does not have the XBox 360 today isn't sitting on the fence thinking "If the XBox 360 was a even more expensive with features I didn't intend to use, I'd buy that!"
Microsoft's own marketing positioned the XBox 360 as a video game console. Anything that adds onto the price tag that doesn't help with that is detrimental to their message. It certainly isn't help their product line to cost this much money and then continue to ask for consumers to spend even more! Microsoft should be working as hard as it can to reduce costs in hardware and software while increasing stability instead of trying to add more gee-wiz features only the hardest of hard core will buy. If anyone wonders why Nintendo is going to run laps around Microsoft in this market it is because Microsoft continues to chase expensive niche customers instead of offering a wider variety, easier for everyone to play system.
Why did Microsoft have to start making things that I actually want and use ?
Sheesh, if they can add Divx playback to the XBXO 360, anything is possible.
we already know MS is turning the 360 into an iptv/dvr - i thought that's what this article was about - it'll prob be announced for the next spring update.
this concept is old news that's been around for a while and it's been pretty hush for a while so i'd say that's what's comin up for CES
Yeah, Maybe they should fix their support first. I've spent 8+ hrs and 62 days waiting for them to fix my xbox live purchases after they replaced my console for the red ring of death. During that time I have: Been called a liar. Apologized to for calling me a liar when the e-mails from them proved I wasn't Told to re-purchase all of my content. Told that my content could not be accessed by others on my console. Told that people without Gold access could not access my content. Been told that recording any calls with them was a violation of Federal law. Been told the only recourse I have is to deal with the support rep who called me a liar-that I couldn't talk to a supervisor,OR have a different rep. Had my case closed repeatedly while unfixed. Been hung up on when transferred to a supervisor in the foreign support hell. Been promised that my problem would be resolved within 30 days. Been told later that it was a minimum of 30 days, but absolutely would be fixed within 30 more days. Its now 62 days. No one helps when I call. Best answer is always [it will be another 30 days]. I used to be a XNA developer. I've stopped now until this is fixed.
Just imagine, a cheap device that is "360 compatible". Plays any Xbox 360 game. Has any set of features any number of licensed OEMs would like to put in. HP could make one. Dell could make one. Panasonic could embed them in TVs.
If the licensing outlay is cheap and competitive enough, it would kill Sony.
It seems a bit far-fetched, though.
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This simply isn't happening.
The rumor within MS is that Microsoft would announce another VERSION of the XBOX 360 with PVR capabilities and Cablecard support. It is my understanding that this hinged on getting at least one of the major cable companies (TimeWarner and Comcast) on board. This apparently did not happen. Therefore, there will be no 360 PVR.
so they can destroy that just like they wrecked personal and business computing
That comment is so wrong, it's incredible.
If there is one single company that moved personal and business computing forward, it is Microsoft.
Say what you want about their interface, their ethics, whatever...no company has done more to move businesses and individuals onto computers than Microsoft.
The fact that 90% of the computers in the world run Windows should tell you something about their influence.
No reason to lie.
On the contrary, I would argue that MS has, if anything, slowed the natural progress of computing. It's true that they have expanded, but the market was bound to expand a great deal - the benefits are just too great to ignore for companies and individuals. Microsoft simply took advantage of an open position in the market and leveraged their way into most users' experiences through highly questionable if not illegal business practices. They achieved 90+% market share simply because of these practices. Once they held a grip on the industry, they did nothing but impede the progress of technology, the browser market being the prime example. After IE beat Netscape (again through probably illegal practices), MS sat on the progress of IE for years, effectively creating the spyware/adware problem. What does the fact that IE was only updated when Firefox came along tell you about MS's "moving computing forward"?
I believe 3DO was the first system to be liscenced out to companies. The only reason I dont believe 3D0 survived was just because of its lackluster liabrary. I think if Microsoft went with this model it can achieve greatness. Also lets not forget how Microsoft runs its liscencing, they are seriously king at this kinda stuff.
I dont remember benefitting from anything microsoft did ever. I had a microsoft natural elite keyboard once. It was when the rumour was spread that microsoft cant get anything right but hardware. The thing died after spilling a minor amount of liquid over it. It seemed almost as if some wet sneezing would have been sufficient.
Also while Microsoft has been the leader in market share for quite a long time that hardly ever happened technology wise. There always have been alternatives. Most of the time they were superior.
The monopoly/homogenous position that Microsoft held was necessary for computing to move forward.
The days of wondering which platform to use were gone. No more CP/M vs. Apple arguments. You could buy a Windows computer, and know that the software you purchased would run on it.
This is what allowed shrink-wrapped software to explode into a huge industry. If you remember going into a computer store in the 90's, the Windows software section was enormous. The Mac section was tiny- and there was nothing else. That very 'lack of choice' is exactly what made computing mainstream.
Now that the internet age is upon us, the platform is no longer important. With an internet connection and browser, most people can achieve everything they need on their computer.
But without Microsoft, computing would not have been brought to the masses. And without the masses, there wouldn't be thousands of 18 year old girls showing their titties on webcams.
No reason to lie.
Microsoft has been telling us that they're going to include IPTV and DVR functionality through a software upgrade for more than a year! This isn't news.
I was more surprised that it wasn't part of the fall update (since they claimed it would be available by the end of 07) than a rumor that they might actually announce what's happened to it and why it was delayed (probably because of a lack of service providers).
The technology is built. Microsoft desperately wants to sell more cable providers on microsoft's IPTV servers. How is this even speculation?
Well one this was long coming with the whole TV/Computer convergence. Two I touched upon this in the TV news thread but since most people have cable and a lot of them have fat pipes (as compared to dial-up) between head-end and customer, another part of the puzzle falls into place with a standerized cable-box (console) that's not wimpy in specs.* I don't know about anyone else but I see a lot of possabilities for anyone working on the media end. It's just a question of will media companies see and grasp the potential before it's too late?
*The DVR part is really incidental to this idea.
Sorry to venture off topic,
:)
But your argument sounds like the proverbial "if your only tool is a hammer" mentality of "business" computing. Microsoft is convicted of abusing monopoly power to push out competition. They didn't bring anything to the masses, they crushed their rivals so it seemed like there _was_ no alternative. And they were convicted of it, too.
We should really tell all those Apple Macintosh users that wondering which platform to use is gone the way of CP/M. Or perhaps all the Linux users should consider the battle over and head to the Best Buy to get their Compaq Vista machines ASAP.
So, basically, your argument is hogwash and Microsoft's history (and current position) is nothing about moving computing forward... If anything, as others in this thread have stated, they have retarded innovation to the point of absurdity in some areas of development simply to maintain their 95% marketshare.
The machines we use, the operating systems we use, and the devices we use don't matter... the ability to read others' documents and data is the key.. and Microsoft has been actively trying to stomp that out of existence even with their own formats. (Thank God they didn't have anything to do with the Internet...)
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
Maybe some 360's just have defective fans or something, but mine isn't particularly loud--even when under full game load.
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The machines we use, the operating systems we use, and the devices we use don't matter... the ability to read others' documents and data is the key.
Exactly, I agree 100%. And until recently, cross-platform access to data was very difficult. That is why it was so critical that such a huge majority of users were on the same platform.
Prior to Microsoft's dominance (and largely as a result of it) there were no 'standard' file formats. Everything was tied to a vendor, and the vendors were happy. Did you ever try to put your 5.25 Apple disk into ANY other drive? It didn't work.
It was not until the industry rallied AGAINST Microsoft, that the idea of standards really came into play. Once they knew they weren't going to beat Microsoft head to head, they decided to take a different tack- 'standards'.
My point is that the dominance of a single company had two beneficial results:
Result 1- in the early stages, computers could interact, because they were homogenous.
Result 2- the industry realizes that instead of allowing one company to hold the keys to everything, they need to make interoperable standards allowing computers to interact.
Plumbing fittings, electrical current, railroads, computers...without a ubiquitous standard, we would never have gotten as far as we are now. Those standards come from industry down a twisty road. Microsoft has played a huge part in making this happen in computing.
No reason to lie.
Didn't we just see an article yesterday about what's wrong with the media?
I speculate that $COMPANY will announce $NEW_PRODUCT at CES. I have no proof, no statements by the indicated players, and I just smoked a garbage bag full of weed.
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3DO is a very good example of exactly what I was talking about, shouldn't have been modded offtopic.
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I submit that before interconnectivity of computers (ARPANET/Milnet/internet) there wasn't a substantial need for data exchange. (The big iron did it, the military already had exchanges of data, and the personal computing world was far from the corporate offices at IBM... recall their purchase of DOS from Microsoft for their own PC, which was licensed to the 'clone' makers... for reference. By far they were all late-comers to the game.) And since Microsoft dismissed the internet as a fad (remember Bill Gates' "The Road Ahead" 1.0?), they had zero to do with standardization and interconnectivity that moved us from separate machines to a common-threadwork. They merely moved themselves into indispensable roles in computing. Sort of like a really annoying middleman who tries to get involved with everything, but seemingly never innovates or implements standards correctly, causing havoc between him and the rest of the computing world (Which I submit is very different than "unifying" anything.) They didn't eliminate the connectivity problems between Apple and IBM machines, they didn't bring the various flavors of unix to the common ground we have today. If anything, the Intel corporation had more to do with that standardization than Microsoft ever did. (They just rode the software 'wagon' as far as it would take them before the government let the hammer fall on their illegal practices).
The internet itself moved the world to intercommunicate, first by protocol, then by data exchange. And Microsoft latched on for the ride... fighting kicking and screaming that the "standards" they proposed were falling off the radar because no one wanted locked into their vendor-specific view of the the interconnected world.
So, no, Microsoft still didn't make the world a better place for your data. It still attempts to balkanize the internet with its own subpar standards that violate interconnectivity outside of Windows to disastrous effect. (run Windows or go dark is their goal... thank God it won't happen...)
It's the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man.
The DVD drive is just too loud to watch DVDs on the thing. As long as there is no DVD in the drive, the sound level of the 360 is (barely) tolerable.
One thing that this article is missing is the fact that Microsoft loses money on the hardware (a lot now that they are replacing them all two or three times a piece). Why would HP come out with an HP xbox. If they aren't going to get a share of the games then the unit will need to be a lot more expensive then Microsoft's. Are they going to say Dell sold 20% of the units out there, so they get 20% of the marketshare? This won't work because some units may be inclined to attract more hardcore gamers which means they will lose out, because they are getting more sales for video games, but the company who makes the cheapest xbox possible is now getting more of the profit because they are aiming at a market who may buy one or two games a year. They could track purchases online and divy it out this way, but that would be difficult as well, and not everyone is online.
The only other thing that I could think that would work is MS pays companies to make the devices. And then MS still gets the royalties. There is not much else that would make sense for companies to get involved.
And yet the PS3 now supports DivX playback, standard USB drives, and sports a consumer upgradable SATA drive.
... some of these are proprietary codecs, but they're not all Sony's, and they ARE what people tend to have.
Similar to how people keep saying the divisions that make the XBox 360 and Windows are not the same, the divisions that make the PS3 and those that "provide media content to the world" are not the same.
The PS3 is the most "Open" console that we've seen so far.
- Boot and install other OS (Linux)
- Uses standard WiFi
- Uses standard HDMI output
- Uses standard laptop size SATA drives
- Uses standard Bluetooth technology to communicate with wireless peripherals
- Uses standard DLNA protocols to act as a media extender
- Uses standard USB ports to connect peripherals
- Supports standard USB drives to backup and transfer content (movies, pictures, etc.)
- Supports playback of DivX, WMA, VC-1, MP3, AAC, WAV, ATRAC, PNG, JPG, GIF, BMP among others (obviously including CD, DVD and Blu-Ray). Yeah
About the only they've kept completely closed is the ability to make games, although the new UT3 map editor and games like Little Big Planet certainly shift that a bit also.
From a media perspective the console is about as open as one could hope.
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I really enjoy the CES. I was hoping to fly out to Las Vegas this week to check out new Gaming consoles such as the XBOX 360. DVR
Direct your criticism at the way call centers are run in general, not Microsoft. I have worked in several of them and we always get the occasional customer like you, who has a call history of 40 calls going back to August of last year. The problem is that nobody is held accountable. If an agent in a call center makes a mistake, it becomes the next agent's problem. Customers don't get routed to the same agent every time. Perhaps they should, but being a call center employee is already stressful enough without customers being able to call back and pester you repeatedly.
You get a few weeks of training to learn what you need to know and they let you on the phone even if you don't pass the test. Then your training starts to get corrupted from misconceptions and rumors that spread among the employees. "Wait, was that 24 hours minimum or 24 hours maximum? Eh, I don't have time to ask. I'll tell him 24 hours and to call back if nothing happens. It won't be me answering the phone anyway." Sometimes you process 30 customers before you learn that you processed them the wrong way, and you have no way of tracing them back, and certainly no time for it because you have a minimum number of calls to accept per day, and a maximum number of minutes to spend with each customer.
And don't be sure it's a manager you're speaking to if you asked for one. Sometimes agents are instructed to simply transfer the call to another agent. Be especially wary if you want to speak to a manager, and the agent says something like "Allright, I'll transfer you to someone." The person you'll be speaking to is at best the person responsible for the current shift of workers. Call centers usually operate pretty independently of the rest of the company. Fat chance in hell that you ever get to speak to an engineer.
You try to follow up every customer and spend time with them, but any such impulse quickly gets squashed when the manager calls you in for a meeting and your "stats" are bad. You quickly learn to stop giving a fuck and just get the call over with as quickly as possible. Or, so do most people. I just quit working in call centers. Can't stand'em.