The 5 Coolest Hacks of '07

ancientribe writes "Nothing was sacred to hackers in '07 — not cars, not truckers, and not even the stock exchange. Dark Reading reviews five hacks that went after everyday things we take for granted even more than our PC's — our car navigation system, a trucker's freight, WiFi connections, iPhone, and (gulp) the electronic financial trading systems that record our stock purchases and other online transactions."

Comments

obvious

[User 956]

Page 5: 'Hacking capitalism'

I've heard of that before.

Re:obvious

[rustalot42684]

My favorite hack was when I went to go look and got "Service Unavailable".

Re:obvious

[AuMatar]

Don't you mean this?

Re:obvious

[Anonymous Coward]

I can't believe I took the time to google image search both names and didn't come up with a single chick pic. Fucking Italians.

Re:obvious

[Sigma 7]

A corporation is a large-scale version of a street vendor that has access to a larger quantity of inventory/services. It's as much of a hack as using a more powerful processor for a task, no matter how much Tim "The Tool Man" Taylor believes otherwise.

Hack #6: VBScript vs. Slashdot Effect.

[Anonymous Coward]

> The Five Coolest Hacks of 2007
> Nothing was sacred - not cars, not truckers, not even the stock exchange
>
> Microsoft VBScript runtime error '800a0035'
>
> File not found
>
> E:\LIVE\WEB\WWW.DARKREADING.COM\LIB\../../lib/db.inc, line 166

Re:Hack #6: VBScript vs. Slashdot Effect.

[muftak]

a so called security site, running on windows...

The best hack is.....

[Core-Dump]

The slashdot effect, within seconds the server dies when the story is posted here.

Bluetooth cracking didnt make the list?

[hcmtnbiker]

I'm surprised the bluetooth cracking didn't make this list. There's just something about being able to hijack bluetooth devices, or even say sniff out bluetooth keyboards for remote keylogging that just seems cool to me.

Re:Bluetooth cracking didnt make the list?

[Anonymous Coward]

probably because this is the '07 list, not the '04 list.

Re:Bluetooth cracking didnt make the list?

[el americano]

And yet they included the Wi-Fi hack that was simple over-the-air packet sniffing and cookie stealing, both of which are not new hacks. That was neither imaginative, nor crafty as promised. Pathetic list (on 6 pages, no less). Thank god it was only a top 5.

GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

Car navigation systems have canged our lives for the better.

Driving has gone from a scary oddysey where I pray I don't miss some tiny sign to an easy journey that is boring at worst.

It's amazing how a little windshield mounted device can so change your life.

Re:GPS

[GrEmLiN76X]

Yeah.. about that..

Didn't someone follow their GPS into a river or something recently?

Oh, maybe I'm thinking of the trucker who followed his GPS into a low bridge on a two-lane parkway that's for non-commercial vehicles only. People need to not rely so much on technology. (Especially while operating a motor vehicle which could potentially kill someone or cause damage to things..)

Re:GPS

[peektwice]

Not to mention the fact <citation needed> that most people drive their GPS enabled cars near their homes, and already know their way around. When they do venture out, it's usually to some place they've already been, and know well enough to navigate. GPSs foster insecurity and the inability to think analytically.
Go ahead, mod me down, Troll -1.

Re:GPS

[iocat]

My favorite GPS story was driving cross-country with a friend a few years ago. I was like "we should get Burger King." He was like "there's no Burger King around here. The closest place is a taco bell about 2.1 miles to our east." I was like "let's get Burger King" and he was like "I told you, there's no Burger King around here!" and I was like "Look up" so he did, and realized we were across the street from a Burger King. HAHAHA

GPS is better than a google map, becuase if you mess up there's some ability to recover, but it pales in comparison to actually being able to read a real map, or know your way around someplace. I love maps, and I like my GPS ok, but mostly because I like feeling superior when it's wrong.

Re:GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

I feel sorry for the next generation of drivers.
They won't know how to get from A to B without some sort of satnav system.

Re:GPS

[dave562]

it pales in comparison to actually being able to read a real map, or know your way around someplace.

I agree. Being able to find your way around a place and actually find a place on your own seem to engage a completely different part of the brain than simply following directions on a GPS. The only way I can describe it would be it's like the difference between "solving" a math problem by knowing the answer and working the steps to get it, versus actually having confidence in your knowledge of the steps and being able to apply them to solve the problem.

I think that GPS devices and automated directions tend to seriously supress one of our survival instincts. When you can always refer back to a cheat sheet, you never really develop true skill.

Now before I get a whole of responses from people saying, "I love my GPS but I can still find my way around." Keep in mind that you've only had a GPS for a few years and you spent probably decades doing things the old way. The new generations are the one who are danger of having their innate abilities dumbed down.

Re:GPS

[rmerry72]

GPSs foster insecurity and the inability to think analytically.

Mate you nailed it. I was once asked for directions to the nearest fast food joint, which was a couple of hundred metres down the main road and then right at the lights before the freeway. Easy peasy, right? No, not at all, the conversation followed along the lines of

• "Hang on , what was that street? I've got GPS so it will tell me"
  "It's literally just left then right at the lights"
  "no, wait, my nav doesn't recognise the name. Can you spell it for me?"
  "i think its called - wait - Dude, turn left, drive 200 m, then right at the lights!
  "Did you say Heathcote Rd?"

Then I drove off and left her standing there. Wonder if she found it? shrug!

Re:GPS

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

I don't know I love real maps and Google maps. With Google I have to upload the information into my head. I never print it out, I just create a mental map of how to get there what the place looks like from the air etc. Really good maps are expensive. I have one and use it, but its really only good for learning how to get different places, as in what are the different routes I could take to get from point A to Point B. Google helps me figure out where A and B are to begin with. I have both, use both, and love both. Its really like asking me which child I love more.

GPS is the red headed step child I keep locked in the attic. Everything it tells me is stupid, and it won't shut the heck up.

Re:GPS

[Hal_Porter]

When the machines take over they will probably turn off civillian GPS just to create chaos. That and the Internet, mobile phones and the global financial system.

At least that's what I'll advise them to do. They'll probably need to keep a few human advisers around afterwards. Reward them well too, since they'll be far more food and booze per Adviser than there was per Human before the takeover.

So I do value posts like yours. In twenty years time, when I'm Baltar, this information is probably worth a robot truck packed full of Moet, hookers and blow.

Re:GPS

[rmerry72]

When the machines take over they will probably turn off civillian GPS just to create chaos. That and the Internet, mobile phones and the global financial system.

Actually I can't think of a better way of inciting chaos then leaving them on. How much more distracted and disconnected our society is this last decade thanx so much to these handy Innovations. Now that I think about your point, perhaps it was the machines that introduced them as a way of softening up and dumbing down the population.

In twenty years time I'll be reminding you of this post and I'll be asking for my divy as promised. The hookers better be quality or the Moet is going up your arse.

Re:GPS

[rikkards]

I concur. I found that was happening when I used to wear digital (numbered) watches. After about 10 years of pure digital, I ended up getting a nicer dress watch which had hands, I realized it took me about 5 seconds to remember how to read time. Since then I have only had watches with hands on it. Even though I always have a cell phone which will tell me the time, I find I feel naked without a watch.

Re:GPS

[Zaitor]

I was like, and he was like......

When the did cheerleaders start reading and posting to /.

Oooh, Hi Satan, I see you are getting quite good on those ice-skates. You'll be doing triple Axel-jumps in no time.

Re:GPS

[somersault]

You mean you can't tell the time from the position of the sun in the sky? Pfft.. kids these days relying on their fancy technology...

I kinda want a GPS just for the geek factor, but the fact is that road signs tend to be enough for me in intercity travel, and if I don't know the local area of the place I'm going to then I google(maps) it. Even when travelling around cities I know, I like to take random roads I've never taken before to find shortcuts. After playing computer games like GTA3 (which has a mini-map with an arrow telling you which direction to take, but not a GPS telling you exactly which road to take) and Test Drive Unlimited (which has a GPS feature which highlights the best roads), then I can confirm that I don't bother trying to remember the roads at all when using the GPS..

These devices all have their uses, but either they need to integrate all the knowledge that we personally get from roadsigns, and have it updated immediately (if there are accidents, etc), or people need to keep their wits about them too and make sure that they only use the GPS as a mobility aid rather than their primary source of information. In fact an AI system that drives itself and recognises road signs and road markings would probably be able to do better than some of the numpties that you hear about these days.. we already have self driving cars and good-enough optical recognition technologies, it's just that the potential lawsuits involved if someone gets run over by a robot car could get rather complicated/expensive.

Re:GPS

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I always wondered what all those paper things with the funny shapes and lines and numbers and place names were for. And who the hell is Rand McNally anyway? ...Delorme?? Wasn't that one of the races in Star Control 2??? OMG I just can't live without my gps

Re:GPS

[Sketch]

Even when travelling around cities I know, I like to take random roads I've never taken before to find shortcuts. After playing computer games like GTA3 (which has a mini-map with an arrow telling you which direction to take, but not a GPS telling you exactly which road to take) and Test Drive Unlimited (which has a GPS feature which highlights the best roads), then I can confirm that I don't bother trying to remember the roads at all when using the GPS.. I like to take random roads too, and GPS is great for finding your way back to major streets after you get lost taking random roads. It's also useful if you want to know if a random road goes through, or ends in half a mile, or if you've been driving parallel to the road your destination is on and have gone too far.

I also find I remember roads just fine when I drive on them later without GPS. I think when playing a video game I would probably be more concerned with other parts of the game than navigation.

Re:GPS

[somersault]

Yep irl I'd be travelling a lot slower, more sensibly, and on the 'right' side of the road ;)

Re:GPS

[Tran]

GPS are good at telling where you specifcally are. Maps tell you more easily where in relationship to other things you are once you know where you are.
I do some long distance Motorcycle Rallies, and I have runs in some rallies using maps only, GPS only and both maps and GPS. I like having both.
Plan route with the map( see the relationships), key points/stops in GPS and voila a succesful fun rally.
But yeah GPS only was the worst experience.
In normal car trips to relatives I have mixed results with GPS only. On one hand, using GPS on trips has taken me on some wonderful roads that I would not have tried otherwise. On the other hand it has taken me through traffic snarls and traffic light fests that almost ruin the trip. I suppose newer models that interface with traffic reports and allow better options in routing may make the experience more positive overall.

Re:GPS

[PastaLover]

GPSs foster insecurity and the inability to think analytically. I don't think so. I think some people are just better at navigating at others. And that is a fact. I don't own a GPS but when I have to drive somewhere I'm not familiar with, even with a map and directions I can still get lost. I just suck at navigating. I'm quite good at reading maps btw, which requires mostly analytical skill which I seem to have enough of. But when it comes right down to it I can't seem to map it well onto 3D space. I guess that's a part of reading maps too. So I would have sucked as a hunter/gatherer, it's not the stone age anymore is it?

Now as a counterpoint, my brother sometimes does have GPS which he uses when he doesn't know exactly where the place he's going to is. And when the GPS tells him to turn a left somewhere he'll routinely go "oh no that'll lead me through country roads, I'll just keep going round this way and take a left a couple of miles further". He doesn't seem to have any inability to think analytically.

Of course there will always be people who overrely on their electronic gadgets. It's common especially among somewhat older people who are not as comfortable with them as younger people yet. But to state that GPS is useless or somehow damaging as a whole is ridiculous to me. It's just another tool you need to use wisely, and that can greatly cut down on people asking me how to get to some street in the city. ("So yeah, a left here, then you keep going for 2 intersections where you take a right, then go 2 km's, then take a right... er, no, one way street there. You know what? Ask someone else")

Already slashdotted

[Dryanta]

Anybody have an alternative link?

Re:Already slashdotted

[paulmac84]

Coral Cache:

http://www.darkreading.com.nyud.net/document.asp?doc_id=142127&WT.svl=news1_2

Re:Already slashdotted

[rts008]

Had no trouble reaching the 'print' version here:http://www.darkreading.com/document.asp?doc_id=142127&print=true

I, for one, welcome our new hacking overlords

[Anonymous Coward]

I, for one, welcome our new hacking overlords

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[log1385]

Now all we need is a "Top Ten 'Top Ten Lists' of 2007!"

site slashdotted...

[Orthuberra]

or was it hacked???

Re:site slashdotted...

[ozmanjusri]

or was it hacked???

It's IIS.

Re:site slashdotted...

[Silver Gryphon]

So... hack-and-slashed?

Congratulations...

[Acid-Duck]

You've been slashdotted!

Financial systems? Nothing new there

[mcsqueak]

This isn't quite a real "hack", but more of a "social hack" if you will.

In 1967 Abbie Hoffman and a group of protesters thew fake money onto the floor of the NYSE (it wasn't blocked by glass back then). Trading on the floor *actually stopped* while traders scrambled around trying to collect the money. Kinda ironic that they'd stop to do that, considering how much more they were actually making doing their real trading. Wikipedia has a little bit on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman. I don't really know much about Hoffman, but I found the story very amusing myself.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[Dun Malg]

This isn't quite a real "hack", but more of a "social hack" if you will.

In 1967 Abbie Hoffman and a group of protesters thew fake money onto the floor of the NYSE (it wasn't blocked by glass back then). Trading on the floor *actually stopped* while traders scrambled around trying to collect the money. Kinda ironic that they'd stop to do that, considering how much more they were actually making doing their real trading. Wikipedia has a little bit on it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abbie_Hoffman. I don't really know much about Hoffman, but I found the story very amusing myself.

Eh. I think AH was a really sharp and entertaining dude, but the irony everyone thinks they see there, isn't actually there. Hoffman was making a political statement, that stock trading was just a bunch of money grubbing. Really, those schulbs working the floor trading all those stocks were trading for other people. They weren't all millionaire stock holders. There's no irony behind a $8K/yr floor trader who lives in a fifth floor walk-up studio apartment grabbing at dollar bills in 1967. Five bucks in 1967 was a month of lunches at the hot dog cart outside.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[locokamil]

It sounds terrifying: FIX hacking in financial systems. The problem is that it assumes that this information goes over the public internet. In almost 99 out of a 100 cases, this isn't the case. If a company can afford to directly deal with a stock exchange, it can most certainly afford a private line into the stock exchange, thus doing away with the hullabaloo over session hijacking and malicious interception.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[rfunches]

Specialists (the people who help match buyers and sellers in floor trading) can make seven figures and the average salary of a securities industry worker in NYC is nearly $300k.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[hughk]

A specialist actually has to provide liquidity, which means they are under obligation to always be able to quote a stock (for buy or sell) where they are specializing within a specified time and the quote must remain valid for a set period of time. For this, you take on a whole lot of risk. To a certain extent, the issuers help you out as a liquidity provider

In any case there is a huge spread within the securities industry with the outriders like certain heads of desks making up to $20M in one year but most others in the $150K-200K range, which sounds good but not so much when you look into the hours and the pressure. However bonuses shouldn't be so good this year particularly in light of the credit derivatives meltdown.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[hughk]

I know more than a little about this. Traditionally exchange members have used leased data circuits between them and the exchange. This gives predictable performance, particularly around price delivery and execution time. However leased circuits remain expensive. These days an institution tends to be a member of multiple exchanges. They will continue to use circuits for the markets where they execute at high volume but for other markets they may typically use an Internet connection and FIX. The older exchanges tend to use closed protocols and some at least have session authentication and encryption. Newer exchanges, typically alternate trading facilities such as Chi-X and so on have moved to FIX with its attendant problems. Although fixed links are more predictable, they also require at least doubling up because they can fail. The difference between the fixed link and the Internet is that you only need redundancy as far as your ISPs rather than the entire journey.

The real problem starts when I'm a smaller broker in NY and somebody asks me to buy some NOK (Nokia) shares. These are listed in the US on the NYSE and Europe. Maybe Europe offers a better price at the volume my customer wants so I need to get the order over to XETRA (a Frankfurt based trading system). The way they do it is to contact a broker in Europe and pass the order onto them for execution. Your link with that broker is via the Internet and the FIX protocol. When you only issue a couple of orders a week, you are not going to pay for your own link to XETRA or even to the XETRA member.

Yes, I am aware of the world of pain around the trading links and sensible banks/brokers will carefully build the interconnected systems in a DMZ. Most FIX engines are closed source but there is at least one that is truely open. A good institution will use VPN or STUNNEL to establish their links, but many don't.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[locokamil]

Good point. My background is with larger financial firms, so I may be slightly (read: very) blinkered when it comes to the problems facing smaller companies.

That said, it seems to me though that the problems with FIX can be made to go away by just mandating that all transaction occur over a VPN or SSH. It's better than nothing, costs little or nothing, and will probably get rid of these kinds of alarmist year-end stories.

Re:Financial systems? Nothing new there

[hughk]

I am a consultant. I get to work with very big banks as well as much smaller ones and with brokers. Generally the word "Bank" means strong processes and a general respect for the idea that as they sit on other people's money they should behave accordingly. Brokers don't take deposits so there is less control and an eye on costs. The biggest problem seems to happen in a brokerage that has been acquired by a bank. They have loose controls (the business prefers "flexibility and low infrastructure costs") and now suddenly they have the full end to end process including clearing and settlement. You can then forget the IT solutions until somebody works out the politics (generally Compliance and Risk).

Hacking what now..?

[ricebowl]

"Nothing was sacred to hackers in '07 -- not cars, not truckers..."

Somebody hacked a trucker? Holy hell...I hope never to see that one documented Hackaday.

Re:Hacking what now..?

[jmanforever]

"Somebody hacked a trucker? Holy hell...I hope never to see that one documented"

Well, I don't know if they can be "hacked", but there is a TV show on CMT network dedicated to "tricking them out" in high-fashion style with bling.

http://www.cmt.com/shows/dyn/trick-my-trucker/series.jhtml

Re:Hacking what now..?

[lysse]

Well, if Lizzie Borden could hack her parents...

3. Eighteen-wheelers

[FudRucker]

when i drove an 18 wheeler i hauled a some very expensive loads, once i picked up a load of Macintosh computers from Apple's Sacramento's warehouse and hauled them to Omaha Nebraska, another time i picked up wine (the kind you can drink) in several locations in northern California and hauled them to Little Rock Arkansas, thats just two examples, the Macs were the most expensive, (i bet there were close to half a million dollars worth of freight in Macs) when Apple was loading those Macs they told me to only stop at well lighted truck stops & stay away from roadside rest areas and given me a designated route along with the bill of lading...

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[MichaelSmith]

told me to only stop at well lighted truck stops & stay away from roadside rest areas

You would think that for half a million dollars they would pay someone to follow you and take care of the load.

given me a designated route

Ahh maybe they did.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[lufo]

When my flatmate bought his new iMac, they told him they really didn't know the date the truck would be ready for delivery, because Apple didn't tell even them (the store staff) the exact date the truck was arriving.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[FudRucker]

RE:["You would think that for half a million dollars they would pay someone to follow you and take care of the load."]

i would not doubt it, at the time i was not looking for anyone following, with that kind of value in merchandise i could understand if they did, people have been killed for far less...

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[gyrogeerloose]

Former long-haul Big Truck driver here, too (I still drive one locally on occasion), and I often carried high-value loads. One time I hauled a load of cell phones from Texas to California and Motorola paid to have a pair of former FBI agents in a black Lincoln Towncar tail me the entire way. I was driving as part of a team then so there were no stops except for fuel. I was put off by the idea it at first--what, you don't trust me?--but after a while, it made me feel safe. That long stretch of two-lane between Ft. Worth and Amarillo seems pretty remote at 0200...

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[Bender0x7D1]

$500k seems a little low for an entire load of Apple products.

Even at a single level deep, (no stacking), you could get about 300 iMacs on a trailer. Call it 15 wide and about 20 deep. If it was laptops, this would be higher - call it 20 wide and 25 deep, for 500 total. Call it a mix of both and we get about 400 units. If we call it an average of $1k each, this is already $400k. Since the lowest retail on these products is about $1k, I figure calling the average value $1k is close enough.

Now, if we start stacking systems 2 or 3 high, and throwing in iPods and accessories with a higher cost/volume ratio, you were probably rolling with well over $1 million in Apple products. Now, that's just a guess, but probably a reasonable estimate.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[The One and Only]

Sure, but think about risk management. It may not be the smartest option to have a 1 million dollar truck driving around when you could have 2 500,000 dollar trucks taking different routes in case one gets ambushed by the mafia.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[Anonymous Coward]

> given me a designated route along with the bill of lading...

I've heard about job perks but getting free lads is a bit to much

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[MerlynEmrys67]

Don't forget Apple's 50% margin - so 1M retail worth of Apple hardware is actually worth 1/2M to apple

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

i would not doubt it, at the time i was not looking for anyone following, with that kind of value in merchandise i could understand if they did, people have been killed for far less...

You didn't notice me taking care of that roadgang, didn't hear the chainguns and explosions? Damn you're not easly waken are you? Well, good work never gets noticed if you're a corporate ninja.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[hughk]

Small items that can be readily resold are readily targetable. Of corse, the real value would be to hijack a load of CPU chips, preferably in OEM rather than retail packaging. Certainly a higher value by weight than gold and generally not so well protected. I seem to remember that there were alerts about certain CPU serial numbers before that came from hijacked loads.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[cbart387]

Al Gore would eat you alive if you heard that ... and frankly it looks like he's done it before.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[Insightfill]

another time i picked up wine (the kind you can drink)

Only on Slashdot do you need to to qualify the word "wine" in that manner!

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[TheLink]

Macintosh computers aren't what I call very expensive loads.

If I were a trucker driving a full load of Intel processors from the factory to the airport then I might be a bit nervous ;).

I've heard cases where somehow trucks get hijacked ( allegedly ;) ) even in rather short
journeys from the factory to the airport.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[tlhIngan]

$500k seems a little low for an entire load of Apple products.

Ah, but the OP didn't tell us *when* he drove trucks. For all we know, that could've been 20 years ago. Or maybe even 10.

In the past 3 or 4 years has Apple actually dramatically reduced the size of packaging. A PowerBook would consume the same space as a PS3 box these days. An iMac was a fairly large box - think 2'x2'x2' at the minimum, as we're only going back 10 years. I can feasibly see that it it could potentially consume the entire trailer. Even today, some boxes are plain HUGE. My Mac Pro came in a humongous box.

Also, there's a chance that the trailer wasn't 100% full - companies like to fully use the space, but sometimes a short load is necessary to keep stocks at warehouses up.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[Anonymous Coward]

Considering the size of an 18-wheeler, half a million dollars worth of freight isn't really very much.

(I once had roughly twice that much in DWDM equipment sitting in the back seat of my rental car. Of course, the Macs would be more likely to be stolen.)

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[vinividivici]

I've driven that stretch of highway many-a-time since I live in Amarillo. It's probably the most boring drive anyone could ever experience in Texas.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[gyrogeerloose]

It's probably the most boring drive anyone could ever experience in Texas.

It is pretty dull and a couple of the little towns you go through are downright depressing but, personally, I'd rather drive that route than Interstate 10 between El Paso and Midland.

Re:3. Eighteen-wheelers

[nobuddy]

You poor sod. I was born there, and left as soon as I was able. That was 20 years ago...

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[Anonymous Coward]

10? Here's 20 of them:

http://lifehacker.com/338970/twenty-top-10s-of-2007

Number one is FUD

[mi]

RDS-TMC provides broadcasts on traffic conditions, accidents, and detours for the driver. It's main weakness: It doesn't authenticate where the traffic comes from, the researchers say. That leaves the door wide open for a bad guy to reroute drivers to a detour, or to overwhelm it with a DDOS, killing the navigation system as well as its climate-control system and stereo. [...] There's not much you can do until it's too late and your AC and stereo are out, and you're sitting on a hot and dusty, deserted road nowhere near Starbucks.

Uhm, bullshit. The worst this attack can do is to either

1. shut the electronics down completely — in which case you'll know, something is wrong long before the last Starbucks is out of sight
2. fool your GPS into believing, there is some sort of interference (accident, jam) ahead, which will simply cause the device to pick an alternate (and sub-optimal) route. You will not be lost, you'll just arrive later.

In neither case does Kelly's mother need to be concerned with "how a hacker could redirect her brand-new car navigation system to a deserted dead end street far from her intended destination." For that one needs to be able to pretend to be a group of satellites. This possibility the article does not cover — either due to the (mentioned) lack of imagination (on behalf of the author itself), or because it is not really possible (because Pentagon's designers of the system thought about it first, maybe).

Re:Number one is FUD

[ricebowl]

...because [the] Pentagon's designers of the system thought about it first, maybe...

You must be new here...

Yeah, I saw your user-id...it's just I've been wanting to use that meme myself for so long...Since I was a little boy...

Re:Number one is FUD

[mangu]

shut the electronics down completely in which case you'll know, something is wrong long before the last Starbucks is out of sight

Better have a diesel engine in this case. Nothing electric to be hacked.

Re:Number one is FUD

[gyrogeerloose]

Better have a diesel engine in this case. Nothing electric to be hacked.

Actually, modern diesels are as computer-driven as gasoline engines. Maybe even more so in the case of large trucks--on every 18-wheeler I've driven in the past ten years, there was no physical linkage between the accelerator pedal ("the hammer," in trucker's lingo) and the engine. Instead, there was a digital position sensor and a multi-conductor cable that fed data to the ECU. All the gauges on the instrument panel were computer-controlled as well.

Re:Number one is FUD

[bhtooefr]

A 1980's diesel. Modern diesels have just as much electronics as modern gasoline engines.

Re:Number one is FUD

[hksdot]

So it would be unlikely that you could get the device to route someone to a dead-end, but given enough detours you could conceivably route the driver to a remote throughway. Or, if you figured out that what the GPS map is inaccurate, you might be able to route them to a dead-end, anyway.

Re:Number one is FUD

[Dun Malg]

Better have a diesel engine in this case. Nothing electric to be hacked.
Are you just repeating something someone once told you, or was the last diesel engine you looked at 20 years old? You ever seen the control system for a Volkswagen TDi Diesel? It's non trivial, and very electronic. Modern automotive diesel engines are a lot more complicated than they used to be.

Re:Number one is FUD

[Barny]

More to the point, cause them to detour over and over till they are on a remote, unpopulated road, then hit them with the DoS, once their GPS is dead, they are miles from any recognizable road with no GPS to get them home.

Bonus points for making a cheap cell phone dampener, putting some magnets on it, and tossing it onto the side of their car.

Re:Number one is FUD

[ColdSam]

fool your GPS into believing, there is some sort of interference (accident, jam) ahead, which will simply cause the device to pick an alternate (and sub-optimal) route. You will not be lost, you'll just arrive later. Why is it infeasible to insert a bogus traffic delay designed to divert drivers off a main highway in a remote area so the cars could easily be jacked? If there are 4 guys with guns waiting at a stop sign because you got off the interstate, I'd say that new route is pretty darn sub-optimal.

Re:Number one is FUD

[Like2Byte]

I wrote diagnostic software for SNAP-ON a while back. I was completely amazed on how high-tech the trucks are these days. It seemed every physical switch had some sort of digital representation through the CAN bus.

Fuel flow rate, engine temp, etc,...

Learn More (YMMV): (PDF Warning for bottom one)
http://www.specifications.nl/can/protocol/can_UK_protocol.php
http://www.freescale.com/files/microcontrollers/doc/data_sheet/BCANPSV2.pdf

Re:Number one is FUD

[bhamrin]

Well, I am not sure about the climate control system being shut down. I believe the article is talking about RDS-TMS http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Traffic_Message_Channel which can be sent along with a radio signal and someone could sent bogus info.

Re:Number one is FUD

[GregNorc]

I disagree!

Re:Number one is FUD

[bgat]

Probably more, actually.

Many gasoline engines have only one fuel injector that services the whole engine, while diesels have one or more fuel injectors _per cylinder_. On top of that, diesels are more complex to control for efficiency and cleanliness than gasoline ones (babysitting the turbocharger, etc.), so there's more calculation involved per cylinder stroke as well.

Re:Number one is FUD

[bhtooefr]

Actually, not even GM has had a single fuel injector (throttle body injection) for a few years now in North America.

It's all port injection. Either that, or gasoline direct injection, which is more complex than a diesel, because you've got to do everything the diesel has to do (except babysit the turbo - and many gasoline direct injection engines DO have turbos), AND maintain the mixture even fuel mixture even tighter than the diesel, AND run the ignition system (which the diesel doesn't have.)

Re:Number one is FUD

[gyrogeerloose]

I was completely amazed on how high-tech the trucks are these days. It seemed every physical switch had some sort of digital representation through the CAN bus.

Yeah, the old days of trucks being as primitive as a hammer are long gone (which is maybe more than you can say for us people who drive 'em...).

It's interesting to watch all the instruments run through their self-test routines whenever you boot--I mean, start--the engine. About the only old-fashioned mechanical gauges left are the ones that monitor the air pressure in the brake systems. I'm sure that's for reliability reasons but it wouldn't surprise me at all to find that they have some sort of digital connection that sends info to the main computer as well.

Re:Number one is FUD

[Dare nMc]

Thing that are more difficult for diesels:
1) You don't have a nice easy feedback of a O2 sensor.
2) Gas engine is controlled by air flow into the engine. So basically you just watch the MAF sensor, and RPM, and have a lookup table that tells how much fuel to inject, adjust slightly based on the O2 sensor (if a emission vehicle). Diesel needs to know RPM, and boost, and Throttle position to try and get to where the driver wants to be. You only have to control fuel, but you can only control fuel (and maybe a waste gate of the turbo.)
3) Rev limiter/governor. With gas, you cut the spark. With D-turbo, if you suddenly unload the engine, you got a-lott of air coming in, and you can't stop it. But a diesel can spend much of it's life on the limiter, so you can't just cut the injectors or you could find yourself in a engine destroying oscillation. So you do your best to back off, but you have to have some oscillation detection, and hope load comes back nicely (IE you better have integrated trans controller or log a warranty ending event if a manual.)
4) soot burn. Now they got soot collectors in the exhaust, so they watch exhaust pressure, if it gets high (at high load most likely), then when air-flow is next low, you turn on a heater in the soot collector, when it's hot you over inject, so it won't burn, and get it into the collector so the soot is burned.

It's all port injection. Either that, or gasoline direct injection, which is more complex than a diesel, because you've got to do everything the diesel

actually no US manufacture has gone mas-production with GDI (gas Direct Injection), generally direct port injection is no different interims of computational complexity than Throttle body. IE they do not time the injection pulse's, to valve operation (except SPFI, which most cars drop out of at full power.)

Although I don't know that much more computation is needed for DI vs MPI, except you need to control more outputs. I guess if your main controller had to control the interrupts for these outputs.

all pages on one page. coralized print version

[Virgil Tibbs]

Print version on coral cache. theres no pictures anyway. everything on one page. no ads

http://www.darkreading.com.nyud.net/document.asp?doc_id=142127&print=true

one up.

Re:all pages on one page. coralized print version

[rts008]

Thanks for the info.
I have not explored coral cache yet, but now I will. :) (I have heard of it, but until recently it has not been an issue for me....times change.)

BTW,I was just trying to help in my own modest way.

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[krunchyfrog]

I would like to see a Top 10 list of the 10 servers that burnt into flames the fastest due to slashdot/digg effects.

Your bluetooth is being hijacked right now!

[DigitAl56K]

Dude, your keyboard is being sniffed! I just saw everything you typed posted on the internet!!

Prediction for 2008 hacks...

[YU5333021]

No.1 hack for 2008 will be the new electronic passports as discussed in the previous Slashdot discussion.

No.2 will be the the voting machines, but that only gets a second place because it's a dupe from 4 years ago.

No.3 will be the poor truckers again. We should really revert back from robotic drivers.

and No.4 will be slashdot's grammar and spelling checking engine, although this will be done in a fairly low-tech manner. The ten submission monkeys will be poisoned and their typewriters tinkered with...

The iPhone hack was a little funny IMO...

[DigitAl56K]

I personally have to smirk at the Apple brigade who on one hand spent the year touting everything Apple as more secure, and on the other hand rushed to jailbreak their iPhones by simply viewing a web page embedding a malformed image.

Re:The iPhone hack was a little funny IMO...

[Hal_Porter]

Damn right, given that Safari is a relatively conservative browser in terms of feature. IE 7.0 supports loads of crazy stuff like ActiveX but it's actually doing quite well in terms of vulnerabilities. And it runs in a jail like special low privilege process too now, so exploits are harder to actually exploit.

Mind you, I still use Opera on Windows, since it is conservative feature wise, has fewer unfixed vulnerabilities than IE or FF, and is a less interesting target due to its low market share. Though I don't know if it can run in a "Protected Mode" jail on Vista. It probably should do.

Re:The iPhone hack was a little funny IMO...

[TheThiefMaster]

You know, there's a "protected mode" -like thing in xp too, it goes like this:

Make sure "Secondary Logon" (service) is enabled.
Create a shortcut to whatever app you'd like to jail.
Go to the shortcut's properties, "Advanced..."
Tick on "Run with different credentials"
OK OK
When you run the program through the shortcut, it will prompt you whether to run the program as yourself but with significantly reduced permissions (default) or as another user (useful to run programs as Administrator if you're not).

You can get the same dialog by right-clicking on the program/shortcut and choosing "run as" instead of "open".

It's a bit of a hassle to go through, and I don't know how secure it is.

Re:The iPhone hack was a little funny IMO...

[Anonymous Coward]

hell, you can basically duplicate most of a "chroot + systrace" type environment in windows (nt5+), if you mess about enough with reduced-priviledge user accounts and the policy editor (not that most apps will work properly, mind).

My next project

[Anonymous Coward]

"... built tools for hacking satellite-based navigation systems that use Radio Data System-Traffic Message Channel (RDS-TMC) to receive traffic broadcasts and emergency messages ... The researchers tested their hardware and software tools with a one- to five-kilometer radius of the targeted vehicles, but they say an attacker could target a specific vehicle by adding a directional antenna, for instance ..."

I think I'm going to invest some effort in this, and build a system that allows me to send messages to the NAV display of other vehicles to say things like:

"Pull the fuck out of the fast lane jackass."

or

"Turn your goddamned high beams off you stupid sack of shit."

Re:My next project

[Skrynesaver]

I want one, I want one now!

Re:My next project

[iriki]

i'm dreaming for this for many years now :D

Re:My next project

[holomorph]

I've often considered putting one of those banner led programmable scrolling signs in my back window so I could type messages to other drivers. Or maybe you could use some sort of small projector to project the messge directly into their car...

Seems a bit cheap...

[Chris Pimlott]

Really, those schulbs working the floor trading all those stocks were trading for other people. They weren't all millionaire stock holders. There's no irony behind a $8K/yr floor trader who lives in a fifth floor walk-up studio apartment grabbing at dollar bills in 1967. Five bucks in 1967 was a month of lunches at the hot dog cart outside. Do you have some sources for that? 8K/year? I get that as about $48K/year adjusted for inflation. Of course they're not the millionaire tycoons themselves, but surely the stockholders wouldn't want to trust deals worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and more to people who weren't highly skilled and thus paid commensurately.

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Do you have some sources for that? 8K/year? I get that as about $48K/year adjusted for inflation. Of course they're not the millionaire tycoons themselves, but surely the stockholders wouldn't want to trust deals worth hundreds of thousands of dollars and more to people who weren't highly skilled and thus paid commensurately. Not-really-related-question: Was the economy different enough back then that somebody making $48k/equiv. could, for example, buy a house?

I'm just asking. I'm under the impression that inflation doesn't always coincide with cost of living.

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[catxk]

I'm just asking. I'm under the impression that inflation doesn't always coincide with cost of living.

It does. Otherwise there's something wrong with the inflation measurement method being used.

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[pla]

Was the economy different enough back then that somebody making $48k/equiv. could, for example, buy a house?

I make in that range now, and can afford really quite a nice house in my area, on land measured in "acres" rather than square feet, with a 20% downpayment (so no playing along with the PMI scam!) and basically optimal terms on a 15-year note.

I won't call myself "upper" middle class, but if you'd sneeze at $48k, get the hell out of the cities - Better for your wallet, your health, and your soul.

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[theelectron]

I second you comment. I've known far too many people who left the local area to work somewhere that paid 50% more just for the extra money, but the cost of living in that area was 2 or 3 times more there. These are college graduates that took a cut in their standard of living simply for more money. I mean, these are supposed to be smart people, but what the heck? Is this common outside of America too?

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[Anonymous Coward]

The actual traders on the floor make quite a bit. However, there is a whole slew of clerks and associated people who do all kinds of odd jobs from changing batteries to punching in trades into their firm's computer systems. These guys, around 2000, seemed to make somewhere in the ballpark of 55-75k, and this involves LONG hours, and a lot of abuse. The upside is that one day you will be a trader and have your own clerks to abuse. Its been a few years since I have worked near a floor, and I have a feeling that with the rise of electronic trading, many of these positions have been eliminated (when we introduced handhelds to the floor, ~10 people were wiped out of existence just because we didn't need anyone to keypunch the trades in to our risk system). I was also not privy to any actual numbers, but these guys were all sharing apartments and living pretty modest existences, so thats my best estimate.

The financial industry has grown tremendously, back in the 60's finance really wasn't considered that lucrative- if you were top MBA student, you were far more likely to pursue a management role in a fortune 500.

The cost of living in NYC has increased tremendously since then, mostly due to real estate prices. According to the census* the average rent in NYC as a whole was $78 in 1960! The average rent for a 1BR in Manhattan is now somewhere around $2000. Also mentioned in those statistics is that the median home price was $17000. So yeah, $8k working on the floor went pretty damn far. The median for manhattan is now in the $900k range. I make in the low 6 figures in NYC, and let me tell you, I really can't begin to afford a home in a reasonably commutable distance (under 90 minutes) from NYC.

*http://www.bls.gov/opub/uscs/1960-61.pdf

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[Darinbob]

On the other hand, with the higher income more can be socked away into a retirement plan even with the higher cost of living, and then move to a cheaper area on retirement. (but then all these "rich" retirees moving to the country raises the cost of living for the locals...)

Personally, I like where I am in the Bay Area. Yes, it's expensive, but I have a decent salary. Not enough for a stand alone 3 bedroom house (they're all priced for families with two incomes). But I've got all my friends here (and I'm no good at making new ones), the weather is great, family is close, and I seriously doubt I would be able to do the interesting sort of work I do someplace where $50K/yr is a comfortable salary.

Re:Seems a bit cheap...

[Chris Pimlott]

I second you comment. I've known far too many people who left the local area to work somewhere that paid 50% more just for the extra money, but the cost of living in that area was 2 or 3 times more there. These are college graduates that took a cut in their standard of living simply for more money. I mean, these are supposed to be smart people, but what the heck? Is this common outside of America too? Not saying that a big house and fresh air aren't worth having, but many people also consider convenient access to things like world class music, art, dining, sporting events, shopping, etc. that tends to be located in major cities is a pretty nice perk.

Radar detectors have had "safety alerts" for years

[vinn01]

RDS-TMC, which provides broadcasts (traffic conditions, accidents, etc.) is nothing new. Radar detectors have had "safety alerts" (emergency vehicles, road hazards, and trains) for years. It's the same technololgy. The difference is that the goverment organizations didn't support the feature in radar detectors (used by law breakers) but then supported the feature in navigational systems (used by honest folks).

There was never any authentication of the "safety alerts". I suppose anyone could play some tricks with bogus messages, but I think that the threat is overblown in the article.

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[Jarjarthejedi]

Actually I've seen a few of those already. What we really need is a Top Ten 'Top Ten' "Top Ten lists".

I thought this was a cool hack

[Anonymous Coward]

Spotted in Sydney and posted to youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ECoA8pi9Rmk

A road-side advisory sign.

About the eighteen-wheeler one...

[Viceroy Potatohead]

I don't know if the EPCs would be encrypted, but I seriously doubt it. Anyone know? Because if they're not, I'd hardly consider that a hack. They were broadcasting their information unencrypted. Reading it is no more of a hack, in that situation, than turning on your radio. DIY, homebrew, sure. But not a hack. If the EPCs were encrypted, that's different, but it probably wouldn't make any sense to do so. Making your electronic barcodes secret strikes me as kind of silly.

On a side note, I have compiled a list of the most uncool hacks since 2003. Here is my list:

1. Nickelback.

Re:Mod Down, MyMiniCity

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't understand your plan. Can you explain?

they forgot something....

[devidebyzero]

should list 5 coolest hackers also. now thats a culture.

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[Anonymous Coward]

And the top list on the "Top Ten 'Top Ten Lists' of 2007!" will have a link to itself, recurring infinitely. Either that or the lists will link back and forth. It's like a narcissistic nightmare.

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[darthflo]

What about ten of those, united in a Top Ten 'Top Ten 'Top Ten 'Top Ten lists''' list with laser beams attached to it's head?

Is that you Harold?

[srussia]

Say hi to Kumar for me.

Czech TV hacked

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4L9FuUCa19o

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[Aaron5367]

-1, Disturbing

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[argiedot]

Bah, all this decimal crap is getting to me. I'm waiting for the Top F hacks list.

Hack, schmack

[sm62704]

I used to be a gay hacker. Then they changed the meanings of all the words, now I'm a happey equipment modifier. No, I'm heterosexual but they changed the meaning of "gay" from "happy and carefree" to "homosexual" and changed the meaning of "hacker" from "someone who writes quick-and-dirty but functional code, or modifies equipment" to "an electronic burglar".

I was incredibly disappointed with the article (RTFA? I must be new here), so much so that I made it no farther than page one of the short five page adfest. I thought it was going to be about hacking a wi-fi connection so that it doubled as a firewall or something. We nerds still use "hacker" in the old fashioned sense, just as we geezers still sing "deck the halls" without thinking about sodomy.

Ok, I know language evolves, but unlike the evolution of organisms the evolution of language is usually stupid. Like "gay", which now means "homosexual", half of whom attempt suicide. I never could understand what was so gay about suicide. Now the kids are twisting the word "gay" to mean clumsy, stupid, or dorky.

As to hacking, fine, now a hacker is a burglar. What do we nerds who write quick single-use code, or those of us who take a soldering iron to a transistor radio to turn it into something besides a radio, call ourselves now?

And could someone please point to an real NERD article somwhere that actually has the ten best hacks of 2007, instead of the ten best cracks of 2007?

I'm glad I can afford to be modded down because this really annoys me and I want to know what the rest of the slashdot audience thinks. I wish I'd seen this when it was fresh, nobody will likely seee this comment to mod it down anyway.

-mcgrew

Re:Hack, schmack

[0x0000]

So to speek z9- of the w20th: represent

Re:Hack, schmack

[LeafOnTheWind]

Are you seriously arguing hacker vs. cracker semantics? Give it up, no one cares - the word has changed, as words often do.

Re:Hack, schmack

[sm62704]

Like I said, language evolves, I have given it up. But we still need a replacement for the old "hacker". Suggestions? I coined a new word yesterday (whorem, my prostitute harem) so it's somebody else's turn today.

Re:Hack, schmack

[Anonymous Coward]

I totally agree w/ you. I also long to return to the simpler times, when computer users weren't snobs.
I switched to cattle, sheep & raising healthy food. Cattle are so much nicer than todays little twit computer snobs.

No Wii Hacks?

[camperdave]

I think the Wii whiteboard hack and the Wii head tracking hack are loads cooler than anything on the list. ...Of course there's no "CrackNotHack" tag on the story, so no wonder.

RDS-TMC vs GPS

[camperdave]

Let me give you a "crash course" in how in car navigation systems function. All GPS does is use the relative arrival time of a number of satellite transmissions to compute a latitude and longitude. Once the in car navigation system has the latitude and longitude, it can look up a map on it's internal database (remember those map packages that you have to buy) and display a map. Once the unit knows where you are and where you want to go, it can compute a course. The RDS (radio data system) system is what modern car stereo systems use to display the name of the song that's playing. The RDS-TMC system is merely an extension to RDS for providing traffic info. It is a simple FM broadcast, and does not require a satellite. The Nav system uses the RDS-TMC data to determine which roads are congested, and plot a route around them. This hack works by broadcasting spoofed RDS-TMC data from a low power transmitter.

Re:RDS-TMC vs GPS

[mi]

This hack works by broadcasting spoofed RDS-TMC data from a low power transmitter.

Excellent. Now explain, how the hack can cause the system do drive you to a deserted dead end.

Re:RDS-TMC vs GPS

[camperdave]

That's easy. Pick a road that's closed for repairs, and spoof that it's open.

Re:RDS-TMC vs GPS

[mi]

That's easy. Pick a road that's closed for repairs, and spoof that it's open.

No, you can only spoof a closure, not openness.

Re:RDS-TMC vs GPS

[camperdave]

Touche. I didn't think that one through very well.

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[Whiteox]

Do you know how to get the 6288 backlight remain on for more than 2 secs?
Is there a hack for this?

Cool hacks?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is no such thing as a cool hack. They are all uncool.

Encryption wouldn't help - common mistake

[myvirtualid]

Encryption would not help protect EPC from fraudulent messages. Safeguarding against fraudulent messages is a problem in authenticity (is the message from an authoritative source?) and integrity (am I receiving the message that was sent, without modification?) and not a problem in confidentiality.

Encryption provides confidentiality protection, not integrity or authenticity. (Yes, MACs can be used for integrity protection, but a MAC doesn't encrypt the message, it just uses an encryption algorithm to provide integrity protection.)

Encryption would be counterproductive in EPC because a) the information should be available to all, and b) using encryption would require recipients to be able to decrypt the messages, which would require the decryption key, which would allow them to author fraudulent messages. Unless the decryption key was their private key (no use of symmetric at all) in which case the system would scale to 1, perhaps 2 users (since the sender would have to encrypt all information with the public key of each recipient).

This sort of key management nightmare also rules out the use of MACs for integrity.

The only practical way to provide this sort of integrity and authenticity is to digitally sign all messages.

Oh no, I seem to have opened the box clearly labelled "Practical PKI, Property of Pandora".

Let the flame fest begin....

vi, Linux, GPLv3, CLI, ST:TOS, Picard, social democracy, pro-choice, anti death penalty.

What? Oh, making my religious war choices clear. Shall I just call you a Bush-loving Moore-hating Nazi WMD maker now, and get it all over with?

Oh, yeah, while we're at it, I'm president of RPLCWADNWEFOTB (Rock-and-Punk Loving Canadians who Absolutely Despise Nickelback with Every Fibre of Their Being), so I'm with you on that one....

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[Zephyr14z]

Hey now, this is /., not VH1.

HD Moore is a Nobody

[Nuclear Elephant]

Hmm it's kind of funny they gave all the credit for iPhone hacking to HD Moore; especially in light of the fact that the team that has actually worked on all of the iPhone hacks has never heard of him. In fact, the metasploit addition of the iPhone exploit came long after the rest of us had already successfully cracked into the iPhone. The metasploit bug is but one bug in the iPhone's image library which has since been patched; it's relatively useless today. Maybe they should have done a little more homework. They'd have found that it was through the effort of many others (and not HD Moore) that anything has happened on the iPhone at all.

Forget navigation. Anyone hacked OBD2 yet?

[mopower70]

I just got my first car with OBD2 (yes, it's been a while) and it says right in the manual that it records about 60 seconds of driving information that can be used against me in the case of an accident whether I give permission or not. I want a hack that automatically erases that information in the event of a button push or airbag deployment. That's complete crap if you ask me...

two more

[oliphaunt]

"hang up your cell phone"

"stop picking your nose"

Re:two more

[Anonymous Coward]

"stop picking your nose"

I agree with all the others, but I don't see how this one affects my driving ability. Sometimes, you just gotta clean it out...

Re:Yippie, another slashdigg toplist!

[dotancohen]

nope