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What's Wrong With the TV News

MBCook writes "Technology Review has a fantastic seven page piece titled "You Don't Understand Our Audience" by former Dateline correspondent John Hockenberry. In it he discusses how NBC (and the networks at large) has missed and wasted opportunities brought by the Internet; and how they work to hard to get viewers at the expense of actual news. The story describes various events such as turning down a report on who al-Qaeda is for a reality show about firefighters, having to tie a story about a radical student group into American Dreams, and the failure to cover events like Kurt Cobain suicide (except as an Andy Rooney complaint piece)."

109 of 536 comments (clear)

  1. What's wrong with TV news? by ravenspear · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'll sum it up in one name.

    Paris Nicole Spears

    Seriously, I really don't give a fuck. If I did I would purchase tabloids. How about some substantive reporting on actual world events? Or if you still have time to fill, some factual information on the presidential candidates. Like, maybe some stories on what they actually believe and have a record of voting for, so the public will be more informed and can make better decisions. Not stories analyzing who is ahead by 3% in the latest poll in what states or who has the best chance of winning. That only breeds bandwagoning subject to the control of the media. This is of course exactly what they want though, which is why we will continue to see no stories with real factual content, and simply sound bites.

    The internet is much better as a news vehicle because I can actually find stories with real content which complexly explore the issues. Apparently the news networks think that no one's attention span is greater than 1 minute and 30 seconds, so they mandate that no stories should be covered in depth. Occasionally there are multi-hour specials on certain things, but apart from that, there is rarely regular substantive coverage of important goings on.

    1. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by Alexx+K · · Score: 5, Insightful

      What do you expect? TV is designed for the lowest common denominator. Why? It's simple. Most people don't watch TV to be educated. They watch to be entertained. Having an active mind while staring at the TV screen is an alien concept to many.

      Case in point: The decline in educational content on channels such as Discovery and TLC.

      --
      Don't mind the extra X. Alex
    2. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by peektwice · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Clearly, neither of you are in the target demographic.

      --
      Other than this text, there is no discernible information contained in this sig.
    3. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by Elemenope · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, the Newshour on PBS is still decent. Not, you know, Edward R. Murrow decent, but still. 60 Minutes also occasionally does a good bit.

      And there's always the Daily Show. Except when the f*%#ing writers feel like striking. Someone should let them know that "fairness" and "consideration" are secondary to my fix!

      --
      All the techniques ever used to make men moral have been themselves thoroughly immoral... (Nietzsche)
    4. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by davburns · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not stories analyzing who is ahead by 3% in the latest poll

      And failing to mention that the error margins of the poll are +/- 5%. That always bugs me.

      Apparently the news networks think that no one's attention span is greater than 1 minute and 30 seconds

      The target audience's attention span can never be longer than a commercial break. You might think you can get away from this by watching public broadcasting -- but then, how long are the pledge breaks?

    5. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by astaldaran · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Is the problem with TV News, the news itself or the audience which watches it? After all in Capitalism the, "market will choose" which shows end up coming on the air. Shows which just only spend a minute or two on a subject and seem to repeat every 20 minutes have place; like on CNN Head Line news. Shows about relatively unimportant people and events have a place, say one little light piece in the news (to take the edge off) or in the newspaper, or as someone else mentioned..the tabloids; honestly there is a reason they exist. There is also a place for in depth political analysis (who is doing how well where?); say on a political show. And the kicker there is room on TV for opinion, but not in the news (wait; isn't that all we get?) What we need is choices; choices breed the best news. When we want to catch up on what is going on; turn to the 24 hour headlines news. When we want the broader picture, we turn on the nightly 6 news (which I believe the best most unbiased one is with Brit Hume; though Wolf Blitzer is really good to he just has some reporters who seem to talk a lot). And after I know what is going on and what it all means, I can turn to an in depth analysis from some show and then get an opinion from someone like O'Reilly or Lou Dobbs (yes...his show is opinion not news...) Obviously we will never get opinion completely out of the news; but I think it is important that news agencies make the difference more apparent then it sometimes is now. AS for how we can move forward with real news when most Americans frankly don't care...well i'm not sure. This is a topic which we could discuss in a political science class for weeks.

    6. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by ravenspear · · Score: 5, Funny

      which I believe the best most unbiased one is with Brit Hume

      I had to quote that just so I could isolated it from the rest of your post and make sure I had read it correctly.

    7. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      When people say things like that what they really mean is "most aligned with my own idealogical slant".

    8. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This was highlighted for me last night while my family watched Die Hard 4. I tried to watch it to spend time with them, I could only last 40 minutes because I was bored out of my mind. No plot, nothing to engage the mind. Simply explosion after explosion.

    9. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by localman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Most people don't watch TV to be educated. They watch to be entertained.

      Except it shouldn't only matter what "most" people watch TV for. Some people watch TV to be enriched in some way, at least some of the time. I do. Or rather, did. There should be stations to cater to that, but there is this endless obsession with being #1 so everyone tries to capture the largest market share. Which means they're all competing over the same piece of pie, while there are other smaller pieces that nobody is trying to get at all. Doesn't that seem a little stupid?

      A strong leader of the Discovery channel, with real vision, could have accepted that they weren't going to compete with idiot TV, and that they shouldn't try to. They should compete to bring a more specialized product to market for a smaller, hopefully more educated customer base. Not every restaurant has to be McDonalds.

      Anyone who believes the market solves everything care to explain why this happens in so many arenas?

      Cheers.

    10. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by heinousjay · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because smart people don't watch TV anyway? It doesn't really matter to me what's on, I don't bother with it. I don't care how educational it is. I'm not interested in mass amounts of passive entertainment.

      So why should they go out of their way to court me? I've quite literally removed myself from the market.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    11. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by localman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because smart people don't watch TV anyway?

      I hear what you're saying but that seems a bit circular to me. I don't think there's inherently anything about TV that precludes it from having smart people watch it except for the fact that they don't cater to that audience. Reading books is a form of passive entertainment too, and I don't read the best selling thrillers that dominate the best seller lists, but there are books out there that cater to me, and I buy them.

      I think we could both be brought back into that market if someone put in the effort. Long tail and all that.

      Cheers.

    12. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by jacquesm · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think you are making one very basic assumption that is just dead wrong. People don't like to read, they like to look at pictures.

      It's the downfall of politics and just about everything else, nobody (on average) really cares about stuff they have to go out and expend energy for. Reading is 'work', looking at pictures is 'entertainment', and entertainment seems to be all you can get from the tube. If you want information, the internet fortunately gives you an infinite number of channels so that at least for people that want information there now are avenues other than the local library (which can be closed, on the other side of town or simply too small).

      Before '96 I spent a fortune on books, now I can read all I want. The Internet is TV's antidote. Sure it has the same BS on it that TV had, but it has so much more. More good information on any subject that you care enough about to do a little bit of research.

    13. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by pokerdad · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Is the problem with TV News, the news itself or the audience which watches it?

      Here's the problem with the theory that its the audience's fault. First, take that all potential audience members fall into one of these three groups:

      1. people who would only watch a hard news show
      2. people who would only watch an infotainment news show
      3. people who would watch a news show regardless of whether it is hard news or infotainment

      Then factor in that it is much, much, cheaper to air infotainment over hard news, and you will realize that group one would have to be significantly bigger than 2 and 3 combined for it to make economical sense to air real news.

      You can argue that if a market existed for 1, someone would produce it. But such an argument is ignorant of the current cicumstances in tv. Just like in other media, tv execs are terrified of the risks that are associated with their business, and anytime they can reduce that risk they do. Infotainment has become the safe thing, and so for now, few would risk making their news show anything else.

    14. Re:What's wrong with TV news? by Deag · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is getting ridiculous, smart people do watch television. Mindless entertainment has a place for everyone. This needless elitism reminds me of an onion article - http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28694

  2. In other words, TV News... by Skevin · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...is becoming more and more like Slashdot?

    Misleading Headlines, Irrelevant Stories, Flamebaiting Comments: you heard it here first!

    Solomon Chang

    --
    "Twice half-assed makes an ass whole." --Solomon K. Chang
    1. Re:In other words, TV News... by sethstorm · · Score: 2, Funny

      Misleading Headlines, Irrelevant Stories, Flamebaiting Comments: you heard it here first! Welcome to "The Slash Factor" with Bill O'Reilly.
      --
      Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  3. Who the hell is by pigiron · · Score: 5, Funny

    ...Kurt Cobain?

    1. Re:Who the hell is by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      90's flannel wearing emo (back when that sort of thing was cool)

    2. Re:Who the hell is by MBCook · · Score: 5, Interesting

      For the most part I agree. Kurt Cobain had a decent following and was becoming very popular and influential (from what I understand). It really wasn't covered at all. You can make an argument for that (like you did, and I largely agree that celebrities shouldn't be covered). But ABC did decided to cover him... not through a real piece, or a little 1 hour documentary, but through insulting him as a joke for Andy Roony.

      I get my news from John Steward, Steven Colbert, NPR, and the 'net. The first two are funny and cover a good mix of stuff. NPR does a pretty good job on the whole, with much better coverage of world events and more interesting in depth stories than I'd get from my other sources. The 'net supplements everything with tons of detailed coverage of the things that I care quite a bit about (like technology) that would include topics too esoteric for more mainstream coverage.

      But many evenings I'll watch 15 minutes or so of news while I'm cooking or eating dinner. I watch NBC, ABC, or CBS. Local or national, whichever is on. It never ceases to amaze me just how BAD it is. The reporting on local events doesn't cover much, except to say there was a fire here or a robbery here. The national news tends to cover celebrity junk, or the war (which they cover very poorly, no matter which side you're on). The best thing I've seen in a long time was CBS's recent series on where our tax dollars went, and just how many earmarks and pork there was last year. But this was one little 5 minute segment on the evening news. It wasn't longer. They didn't call for action. Just a quick "congress is wasting your tax dollars, oh well."

      I remember once, a few years ago, Charlie Gibson did some little piece that was probably supposed to be fluff for Good Morning America. And in the middle of the piece he just asked this really insightful hardball question to the person. It made the Daily Show because it was such a perfect "gotcha" moment. And it just makes you wonder... Charlie seems like a nice guy but if he can do that kind of reporting, why is he just doing fluff on the morning show... competing with the likes of Regis and Kelly (who don't pretend to be news).

      Every now and then, I'll hear a fantastic report on NPR. It will tell me more than I ever knew about some event that I'd already heard about earlier from other outlets; and I'll gain a real understanding. It may be just some little human interest type story, but something that's actually interesting about a little town or business and what's going on there. The "Grandma Smith's cat traveled 80 miles to come back home" type stories get, at most, a 5 second mention to fill time in a group of little tidbits.

      And then, once in a long time, one of the reporters on Morning Edition will say something funny. Something I didn't expect, and hilarious. Not some bad joke anyone could have written. Not some forced line. Something that's actually funny. Like a few months ago when there was some story about Moree Eels, and they broke out into a version of "That's Amore" (which got posted in the comments here on /.) that made me just break out laughing. They're willing to take a few risks now and then that no TV network will.

      To say nothing about their other programming. Where is network TV's version of All Things Considered, Science Friday, Talk of the Nation, or any of NPR's other news-type programs.

      At this point, watching the main networks is just kind of depressing, making me pitty how bad they have become. You'll see people like Rather talk about trying to be Cronkite, and you just wonder how little Cronkite or some of those other older authoritative voices would think of how bad things are now.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    3. Re:Who the hell is by GaryPatterson · · Score: 5, Funny

      ...Kurt Cobain?

      He's the guy that sang the line "I don't have a gun," and then showed us he was being ironic.

    4. Re:Who the hell is by heinousjay · · Score: 3, Funny

      Like my daddy said, opinions are like assholes, and so are you.

      --
      Slashdot - where whining about luck is the new way to make the world you want.
    5. Re:Who the hell is by dbIII · · Score: 4, Funny

      Who the hell is Kurt Cobain?

      Nevermind.

  4. The trouble with TV (why print rules) by 427_ci_505 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You can read more in one hour, than a newscaster can speak in one hour intelligibly.

    So news is all soundbites.

    1. Re:The trouble with TV (why print rules) by yo_tuco · · Score: 2, Informative

      "30 f/s x 30 sec x 1000 w/p (words per picture)=???"

      I don't want to pick the fly shit out of the pepper, but...

      That equals 900,000 frame words per picture

      How about: 30 frame/sec x 30 sec x 1000 words/frame?

    2. Re:The trouble with TV (why print rules) by Adult+film+producer · · Score: 2, Funny

      reading about Britney's most recent nipple slip doesn't have the same effect as seeing it with your own eyes. Thats why I turn on the television for in depth news coverage of the latest worldly events.

  5. Big Media a Political Tool by mandelbr0t · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The guys making decisions are few, and they are all political animals. Even the more liberal ones like Jon Stewart use their airtime to make political points. Television has become prescriptive, a way for the rich and powerful to tell us what to think. It's more noticeable in the U.S., I think, because both major parties have converging interests when it comes to issues like Al Qaeda, Iraq, etc. Big network TV in the U.S. is bordering on propaganda. I can recall one attempt by the Canadian Conservative government to play along, banning images of Canadian military caskets from the media. Thankfully there was a public outcry, and the decision was soon reversed. Unlike the Republican government, the Conservatives have a minority government and must make concessions to the Opposition on a regular basis. This is not a problem in the U.S., and I don't expect that we'll see a more empathetic viewpoint on major network television before Bush is out of office.

    --
    "Please describe the scientific nature of the 'whammy'" - Agent Scully
    1. Re:Big Media a Political Tool by edisk1353 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If your complaint is that our TV coverage is opinionated, then I've got news for you: it's always been that way. Newspapers have long held biases. Even now, we speak of "conservative" or "liberal" papers, and in Europe there are even a good number with a communist bent. And if your complaint is that newspapers have followed their profit motive to the expense of their coverage, then research the American journalism in the run-up to the Spanish-American war. Frankly, where it is possible to make money, money will be made. For better or worse, this is how all of capitalism works.

    2. Re:Big Media a Political Tool by no-body · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Right on!

      The world is like a ship in a huge storm

      - the rudder is broken, and the mast just broke also, the ship cannot be steered any more
      - the captain and crew are totally drunk or stoned

      and the news media are there to make the passengers think they are on a holiday cruise

    3. Re:Big Media a Political Tool by DigiShaman · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I don't have a problem with biased media so long as they're honest about whom they are and the audience they represent. Take Rush Limbaugh or Michael Moore for example. Love them or hate them, at least you know where they stand. Unlike CNN, Fox News, or Time Magazine who claim to be unbiased but are not in fact.

      Having an agenda but refusing to acknowledge it has got to be the most aggravating, shameless forms of intellectual dishonesty to grace our public airwaves.

      Drive By Media indeed!

      --
      Life is not for the lazy.
    4. Re:Big Media a Political Tool by ScrewMaster · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bordering on propaganda? I'd say that line got crossed years ago.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    5. Re:Big Media a Political Tool by WindowlessView · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If your complaint is that our TV coverage is opinionated, then I've got news for you: it's always been that way. Newspapers have long held biases.

      The difference is that newspapers are doing it with their presses, not my air waves. We let tv stations make billions every year because they are in part suppose to promote the public good. They used to held to a standard where they would be audited for such things every three years. Now they literally send in a license renewal by postcard once every 8 years and no one ever loses their license.

      --
      Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
  6. Call Jon Stewart by Zeinfeld · · Score: 5, Insightful
    More people under 30 get their news from Jon Stewart than any other source. Worse though is the fact that Stewart's fake news is better than the real news.

    People should call into Stewart to suggest that he come back on the air and does a straight news show until the writers return.

    --
    Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
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    1. Re:Call Jon Stewart by MBCook · · Score: 5, Interesting

      He's coming back, and I can't wait, but I think Stewart's version of straight news would be too depressing.

      What I find so ironic is that this strike knocked my two main sources of news off TV, thus reducing the amount of coverage I've heard about it to what NPR did (which has died down now that the strike has been on for so long). A few weeks ago I realized I didn't even know if the strike was over or not and I had to go look it up.

      --
      Comment forecast: Bits of genius surrounded by a sea of mediocrity.
    2. Re:Call Jon Stewart by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, what's really ironic is that an article summary complaining about the lack of "serious" and "important" news on TV uses the example of a rock star killing himself as "important" news. If the point is that Britney/Paris/Nicole aren't "real" news compared to actual events in Iraq/Afghanistan/RonPaul then why is Kurt Cobain somehow so important to deserve mention in the headline? It seems like the problem is one of music taste, not importance. If the news spent entire segments on rock stars (instead of pop stars) at the expense of Iraq/Afghanistan/RonPaul news I think the author would think that's just as bad.

      Otherwise, interesting article.

    3. Re:Call Jon Stewart by rpillala · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The Daily Show may be a fake news show but much of the damning parts are simply juxtaposed video clips of the same person saying two completely opposite things. That's what keeps me watching, is the memory the show seems to have about public record. So many "journalists" seem happy simply to be talking to their subjects or about their subjects that they don't call them on obvious bullshit. It's a fake news show insofar as it's not purely a news program, but it's also not as though they have actors playing Bush, Cheney, Rice, Craig, etc. in skits.

      The Daily Show is returning on Monday (1/7/08) without its writers.

      --
      When the axe came to the forest, the trees said, "Look out - the handle was once one of us."
    4. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2, Insightful
      No, what's really ironic is that an article summary complaining about the lack of "serious" and "important" news on TV uses the example of a rock star killing himself as "important" news.

      Kurt Cobain was a vastly more important figure in the rock scene than Brintey/Paris/Nichole. Not mentioning his death would be like not mentioning the deat of Pavarotti.

      The point in the article though was not that NBC should have done saturation coverage on Cobain but that it should have been covered as news. It would only be considered news if there was a tie in to some primetime show. Cobain dies in 1994, before Iraq/Afghanistan/Paul were stories of any sort.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
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    5. Re:Call Jon Stewart by donaggie03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "More people under 30 get their news from Jon Stewart than any other source. Worse though is the fact that Stewart's fake news is better than the real news." Maybe it's actually more people under 30 get their news from Jon Stewart than from any other source BECAUSE OF the fact that Stewart's fake news is better than the real news. Jon Stewart probably spends a lot more time discussing important topics than mainstream media. He might do so in a humorous way, but the content is still there.

      --
      Three days from now?? Thats tomorrow!! ~Peter Griffin
    6. Re:Call Jon Stewart by WaltBusterkeys · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cobain dies in 1994, before Iraq/Afghanistan/Paul were stories of any sort

      The first war in Iraq was in 1990-91. Iraq was a story before Cobain died.

      Afghanistan should have been a major story in the early 1990s. The mujhadin took over the capital in 1992 and paved the way for the current government.

      Ron Paul wasn't a story, but Ross Perot was.

      If the complaint is that there isn't enough "hard" news or "real" news then Kurt Cobain is a terrible example. He was important to rock, but Britney is important to pop.

    7. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Lobster+Quadrille · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Last time I watched TV news was almost a year ago, and it was a story about Britney shaving her head. Kurt Cobain ate a shotgun and didn't get anywhere near as much coverage.

      Cobain created a genre and heavily influenced nearly every musician to play a guitar since. Britney danced badly for a few years, then got fat.

      You tell me which is more worthy of a headline.

      --
      "The cup is in turn designed for holding hot or cold liquids, and has an open rim and closed base." --US Patent #5425497
    8. Re:Call Jon Stewart by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I disagree, there's no difference. Quite simply, the deaths of artists don't affect our lives in any meaningful way. Yes, they won't produce any more art, which is a shame (or a blessing, depending on your opinion of the artist). But their old art is still available to you, just as much as it was the day before they died. Anyone who gets worked up over the death of an artist is no better than anyone who gets worked up over the minutae of Britney's (or whoever's) life. It just doesn't matter. It should be something mentioned in passing, and then never mentioned again, because it just isn't real, meaningful news.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    9. Re:Call Jon Stewart by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 5, Interesting
      This is from an interview with David Javerbaum, executive producer of the Daily Show, in an episode of Frontline ("News War", part III: "A New Definition For What's News"):

      I personally, through this job, through working at this job, have come to feel that the news media is even more depressing than the news it attempts and fails miserably to report. I think it's horrible news, broadcast horribly. That's a fairly blanket statement, but I've been doing this for a long time, and seeing, delving into this every day, it's a thoroughly depressing business. To the extent that people look to us as a source of news, that is 100% indicative of other people's failure, and not our success. Because Jon, unlike me, has the cable news on in his office all day. I can't take it. I can't take it. But he's a tougher man than I am... "No fear, just facts"... [referring to a mocked CNN clip] ...if that's their slogan, then they're asking to be punched in the face, when they have nothing on but fear.
      Youtube link

      I don't get my news from the Daily Show; it's just gratifying to hear someone on TV, pretending to report the news like they all do, who isn't lying to my face! Or pointing out when someone is lying! At least when they lie, it's clearly in the context of a joke!

      And I always know, that if anyone on the TV is going to be the first to tell the truth about something, it's going to be the Daily Show. It's always the Daily Show. And that really pisses me off. I don't "watch it for the news". You can't get news from the TV anymore. And you talk to people who only get their news from the TV, like most people still do, and it's like being on another planet! They're completely brainwashed! Try to tell them what's going on, and it feels like you're screaming into the darkness!

      I mean, I read this from the article:

      This was one in a series of lessons I learned about how television news had lost its most basic journalistic instincts in its search for the audience-driven sweet spot, the "emotional center" of the American people. Gone was the mission of using technology to veer out onto the edge of American understanding in order to introduce something fundamentally new into the national debate. The informational edge was perilous, it was unpredictable, and it required the news audience to be willing to learn something it did not already know.
      This isn't even true! I knew before the war, for example, that it was all premised on bullshit, maybe because I had an Internet connection? I forget how I knew; I just remember knowing a long time. I knew for at least a year beforehand. What am I, Nostradamus? I knew for at least a year that these people on TV were staring straight at us, carefully omitting things about Iraq that were true, saying things about it that weren't true, i.e. lying! How can they not know they're lying? I know they're lying! Lots of us knew they were lying! Lewis Black from the Daily Show knew they were lying! "I knew they didn't have weapons of mass destruction. How did I know that? I was just sitting on my fuckin' couch!" And then they wonder and bellyache about young people "getting their news from the Daily Show"!
    10. Re:Call Jon Stewart by RealGrouchy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      As Jon Stewart has pointed out himself, people only get the jokes because they understand the issues surrounding them. That requires being tuned to more than just his show.

      - RG>

      --
      Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
    11. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Mesa+MIke · · Score: 4, Funny

      What? No... Who's familiar with subject matter? Not me.
      I only "get the joke" because the studio audience is laughing.
      So, it MUST be funny. Therefore I laugh.

      I've noticed it's like that with a lot of "comedy" type shows. Has been ever since the days of black and white TV.

    12. Re:Call Jon Stewart by ClosedSource · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Not mentioning his death would be like not mentioning the death of Pavarotti."

      If Pavarotti had only done 3 albums. Like many rock artists who died young, Cobain's death spared him the idignity of becoming a has-been. Had he lived he might very well be on "The Surreal Life" today.

    13. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Architect_sasyr · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One word. Bewbies.

      The best way to look at why things show up on TV is to look at the justification for a current affairs show on a new bra for women.

      These segments are considered prime for any show for two reasons. The first is that women are genuinely interested in a new bra, potential for them is more comfort or whatever it is a woman wants. The second is directed towards men and is, of course, the female breast. About 98% of straight males will watch one of these segments on the off chance that they will see a decent set of flesh mounds or perhaps a missed-editing nipple.

      So why is Paris Hilton to news shows? Because we get to see her fleshy self. Now personally I hate the woman, so this doesn't apply to me, but a lot of people (perhaps people outside of the computer industry?) don't particularly care if she's ugly, or if she's loose enough to fit a pineapple into the sweet spot (thank you South Park!), they just care about the potential for tits.

      Ok so its not a very noble reason, but lets face it, not much about the human race is.

      Note: Statistic is not backed up, an advertising friend of mine told me this sometime ago
      This is my $0.02 AU, ignore at will.

      --
      Me failed English...
      FreeBSD over Linux. If my comments seem odd, this may explain...
    14. Re:Call Jon Stewart by LithiumX · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I disagree. While I couldn't care less about the day-to-day mistakes of a sheltered flamed-out (and immensely successful) pop singer, I think it would be real news if she died, especially if by self-inflicted means. If someone important to culture (high or low) dies, it's always of general interest. Cobain was derided by most as just being one more rock star, and the constant MTV coverage of every hangnail and stubbed toe of his was little better than tabloid material... but his death was actually of some importance. It seems you have to die, preferably in a tragic manner, to achieve lasting fame. That doesn't mean it's a critical news story to be hashed over endlessly, but something on that level would warrant more than a "passing" mention.

      The difference is that, now, network news is little different from MTV. Stephen King put it very well in one of his recent articles (http://cnn.com/2007/SHOWBIZ/12/28/yir.2007/index.html?iref=newssearch/). Instead of a sober statement regarding someone's death, followed by controlled commentary, editorial, and discussion of their impact, it now degenerates into a media circus like something that belongs in a pop magazine - it goes on endlessly, long after any intelligent person ceases to care. Even Anna Nichole Smith, someone who was about as important as Tiny Tim (blessings be upon his Holy Yukelale) and Charro, is STILL a major factor in the news. My only consolation is that the "golden age" of culture is an illusion brought on by the fact that we tend to forget that Murrow, Cronkite, and others were usually sidelined by pure garbage - we just don't remember the garbage for long. And the Golden Age of radio, for all of it's moments, was primarily filled with works of fiction that make modern sitcoms look like Masterpiece Theater. The first half of the 20th century seems to be filled with literary masterpieces, but most of the actual books printed at that time were even worse than what we have today. Conversely, there are many works being printed today that will certainly get more respect from future generations than they can hope for today.

      I have a theory. Most people, meaning the vast majority who have no significant neural defects, only believe they can't handle culture. People are conditioned, not by government but by their peers, to believe that science, history, technology, and literature are beyond them. In school, I constantly saw ghetto kids slowly gain an understanding of computers (under my tutelage), then desperately hid it from their peers (to whom any form of academic achievement by one of their own had racial overtones). Later I saw that most people seem to feel that anything beyond them was simply beyond them, not understanding that no one learns "geek" subjects without effort. Some people have a stronger sense of wonder, a more powerful curiosity, that drives them to learn and grow more than others, but I really don't believe there is much that is beyond the average person, if they only paid enough attention to develop an interest in higher culture. People like to be comfortable. They like to have limits, no matter what they say. Regrettably, most people will accept imaginary limits of their own making rather than risk the crushing reality of the real thing, a choice that cripples them worse than any failed undertaking ever could.

      That's why the media is the way it is. That's why the lowest common denominator is so low. That's why the masses prefer prolefeed to actual information. They have conditioned themselves to do so, and continue to do so until it (whatever "it" happens to be at the time) becomes sufficiently widespread as to be socially acceptable to their self-imposed caste.

      On a final note, I don't care what anyone says about Spears in her post-career phase, I would still tap that ass, no question.

      --
      Do not confuse "Freedom of Choice" with "Free Will".
    15. Re:Call Jon Stewart by daemonenwind · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Well, since you asked, this John Hockenberry seems to have two main complaints:
      1. He doesn't consider mainstream news relevant to his life. (Kurt Cobain, etc)
      2. He doesn't think the mainstream news will report anything that doesn't grab at gut-level emotions.

      Well, he's probably right about both. But his complaints seem to come from the fact that, rather than understanding what the show is and not taking a job there, he tried to make it into something it isn't. The guy should have stayed with NPR if he didn't want to write news copy for the express purpose of selling ads - that's the glory of Welfare Radio. No meaningful bottom line.

      Mostly because anything on the TV, Jon Stewart included, is designed to put you into enough of a trance to mindlessly watch advertising. It feeds the bottom line that keeps everyone employed and the bosses in stock options.

      Jon Stewart isn't any better or worse than Dateline.
      Dateline is a newsy show designed to appeal to emotion, not logic.
      The Daily Show with Jon Stewart is a newsy show designed to appeal to a liberally-oriented laugh track, not logic.

      If you get your news from either source, you have no idea what's going on. The audiences are equivalent.
      The sad part is that so many of you with-whiners don't realize that the same blame you're pointing onto others applies to you as well.

    16. Re:Call Jon Stewart by LithiumX · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The Daily Show (as well as The Colbert Report) are built on the assumption that the audience is at least vaguely familiar with the news. I've found that any time I've gotten too slack in keeping myself updated, the show is funny but just not as funny as usual. When I'm fully aware of the subject matter, the full humor comes out.

      As for the show's memory regarding public statements, that used to be called Journalism. I think the only thing funnier than the show itself is the media reaction to it. The "real" journalists you see participating in the show do so because they like what he is doing, and can see the irony of a show that presents heavy editorial comment framed by humor in order to reach an audience that the major news networks have effectively lost.

      It works. South Park and The Daily Show (after Stuart took it over) were the two main things that made Comedy Central grow and evolve, while it's siblings (the other comedy-based networks that few notice anymore) utterly failed. The History Channel became the Aliens and Biblical Prophecy Channel, The Discovery Channel became the Sharks, Blood, and Disasters Channel, and the Learning Channel, so promising at first, has effectively become the authoritative source of Medical Freaks and Wedding Planning. Meanwhile the Comedy Channel has gone from a dirt-broke cable backwater that mostly featured stand-up comedians in comedy clubs, old sitcoms, and a few forgettable homebrew series... to an utterly foul-mouthed travesty of toilet humor, sex humor, and tragedy humor dominated by high production values, social commentary disguised as comedy, a whole mess of puerile garbage with too many saving graces to be ignored, and some of the most controversial, hilarious, foul, and intelligent programming currently on television.

      Saturday Night Live, at it's height, was usually just very very funny. In Living Color had some serious intelligence that slowly collapsed under it's own ghetto-targeted humor. Mad TV dabbled in commentary, but was mostly just shock humor. Meanwhile, the first decade of the 21st century has seen a network that rallies under the banner of the First Amendment in a way rarely seen. They really are the court jesters of this country (and beyond).

      Incidentally, I have a running bet going with a few people that, very shortly after leaving office, if the show still stands, Bush will finally make an appearance on The Daily Show. He's had every other living president (sometimes more than once), and even the sitting VP's wife, so it's a fair chance.

      --
      Do not confuse "Freedom of Choice" with "Free Will".
    17. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      In this case, the Cobain's death was an opportunity to explore a taboo subject. That is more innocent and valuable than covering the life of pop stars, but covering law and order stories about pop stars has a beneficial effect in establishing trust in justice systems. There is sometimes a functional purpose for the attention, but, unfortunately, sometimes the coverage is too broad and banally compounds idolatry.

    18. Re:Call Jon Stewart by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2

      Stewart is funny, but for the love of God, I wish he'd please move away from heavy politics. I'm in my early 20s, I can understand that people care a lot about politics, especially in college, but the factual substance is shameful on that show. It's fine to watch, just check-out bbc, cnn, or even al-jezera too.

      Much substance is lacking from the Daily Show, but Stewart plays an important role that unfortunately no one else is playing. (Olbermann does a little, but enough already with the Britney crap at the end!) There's a lot of stuff that happens in heavy politics that truly deserves ridicule. That must be ridiculed if we are to avoid making ridiculous collective decisions with disastrous consequences.

      Most U.S. television viewers simply aren't exposed to BBC or Al-Jazeera. I've never seen the BBC offered as part of a basic cable package. (We used to get BBC America at our house, but it was part of Comcast's "premium" package which we dropped.) The same applies to Al-Jazeera. (The fact that it's also widely distrusted in the U.S. simply for being an Arabic news organization doesn't help.)

      As for CNN, availability isn't as much of an issue- if you get Fox News, you usually get CNN too. Basically CNN is a Fox clone carefully marketed toward people who know they distrust Fox. It differs from Fox in its preference for subtle sins of omission rather than overt sins of commission, but they manage to frame the issues in the same way, and the average Fox viewer and the average CNN viewer are probably about as equally ill-informed even if their political alignments may differ.

      There needs to be news sources similar to the Daily Show (besides the Daily Show) that at least present the news in a coherent context so you can quickly realize what is going on. Things happen every day that should make you hit the roof and that will affect you in the future. Most people simply don't have time to watch the hours of raw, undigested news coverage needed to recognize what these things are and to place them in a meaningful context. Especially when such an intense, subtle effort is made to present the facts themselves in a censored, cherry picked, confused, or distracting way. Or to summarize them in ways that make no sense, are irrelevant, or are designed to attract your attention to matters of no importance.

      For example, I'd urge anyone to look at exactly how much oil the United States imports from Iraq. Touchy subject, I know, but this something that Americans should look up for themselves, as the sources are numerous and varied.

      If you're just presented with an avalanche of acontextual information, it can be difficult to see the forest for the trees, especially if you only see the news briefly after work and don't have time to devote to e.g. an analysis of oil imports that may even require statistical analysis, using information gathered from many different sources, some of which present misleading statistics. Say we import X barrels from Iraq. Is that a lot? What percentage of our oil imports is that? Is the percentage relevant? What would the effects be if those imports were disrupted? Would they incur costs that exceed those of the occupation itself? Who benefits? What underlies that number's importance? What if some sources report Y barrels? What accounts for the difference? Is someone averaging in barrels imported before the war, counting the same barrels twice, or including barrels that really came from Kuwait? Why would they do that? The majority of the public can't be figuring all these things out for themselves on all issues all the time, but they shouldn't have to. A public need is not being addressed here. So you see people so desperate they have to watch the Daily Show- which fulfills its legitimate role as a comedy show about current events, but that also makes a pathetic excuse for something that is seriously missing from American journalism.

    19. Re:Call Jon Stewart by slugstone · · Score: 2

      I am sorry Cobain who? Who cares? Just another pop/rock/hollywood star. We have way to many to care about them. Give me an sciences/political figure. I other word someone who changes our lives.

    20. Re:Call Jon Stewart by DreadfulGrape · · Score: 2, Funny

      re: "On a final note, I don't care what anyone says about Spears in her post-career phase, I would still tap that ass, no question."

      Ditto. I bet she's a fuckin' tiger in the sack, especially after a could of good bong rips.

      That was a most excellent analysis, LithiumX. Indeed, I'm giving up my ability to moderate on this thread just to tell you that.

      --
      sig has been sent away for a few small repairs...
    21. Re:Call Jon Stewart by twistedsymphony · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Jon Stewart isn't any better or worse than Dateline. Dateline is a newsy show designed to appeal to emotion, not logic. The Daily Show with Jon Stewart is a newsy show designed to appeal to a liberally-oriented laugh track, not logic.
      The difference is that The Daily Show doesn't hide what they are... Dateline masquerades as a "real" news broadcast dedicated to delivering facts over entertainment when that's not the case... IMO that makes all the difference in the world. I have no problem with entertainment/news shows but they shouldn't be pretending that they're something they're not.
    22. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Zeinfeld · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I am sorry Cobain who? Who cares? Just another pop/rock/hollywood star. We have way to many to care about them. Give me an sciences/political figure. I other word someone who changes our lives.

      Maybe if you had a real news service available you would not be so ignorant about culture. Cobain and Nirvana led grunge rock which pushed the last creaky vestiges of glam rock and such off the stage. Cobain's suicide was the 90s equivalent of Sid Vicious's murder of Nancy Spungin followed by his own suicide.

      The sudden death of Anna Nichole Smith was certainly a news story, but it wasn't breaking news and it was never justification for the saturation coverage it received.

      And yes, there were plenty of other stories being dropped, but if you read the article you would have seen that the lack of a story on Cobain was only one of the examples where coverage was lacking, and a minor one at that. NBC wasn't passing up a story on Kurt Cobain to do indepth coverage of the rise of the Taleban or such. They were passing it up in favor of their usual vaccuous crud.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    23. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Zeinfeld · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I love the Daily Show, but juxtaposing clips of persons saying completely different things isn't news because in the real world, situations change and it's often useful to behave inconsistently (cue Emerson's "a foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds" quote). Further, the Daily Show's juxtapositions are not always valid -- I've seen quite a few old quotes taken out of context, but that's okay because it's not real news.

      The point is that these contradictions are ignored by the mainstream media.

      Fact: Before 9/11 Rudy Giuliani was a supporter of and fundraiser for a terrorist organization.

      This isn't hypothesis or inference. Giuliani attended numerous IRA fundraising events and these were reported in the New York Times at the time. Giuliani attended the events to be reported. I don't think that Giuliani ever seriously supported the methods of the IRA but he was willing to at least pretend that he did in order to court the NYC Irish vote.

      The IRA caused more deaths than Al Qaeda has to date.

      Giuliani even gave Gerry Adams, the leader of Sinn Fein, the political wing of the IRA a 'humanitarian' award. A few months later Gerry and his boys bombed a shopping mall. Rudy never condemned the attack on civilians. Not good for his votes you see. Bin Laden is probably asking himself 'hey where is my Crystal Apple'.

      Giuliani has set himself up as an expert on terrorism. He has attacked Islamic 'charities' that are in fact funraising fronts for organizations such as Hamas and Al Qaeda. Yet nobody seems to have challenged his efforts to raise funds for NORAID, the IRA's US fundraising arm.

      It isn't just a matter of one man's terrorist being another's freedom fighter. It is also a question of what the best way to fight terror actually is. The IRA had several ceasefires before 9/11 but it was when the US funraising line was severed that they were finaly forced to pack it in. When I first came to Boston pretty much every irish themed pub would have a NORAID fundraiser advertised. Every single one of the posters disappeared within days of 9/11.

      Giuliani is currently trying to relaunch his campaign on the back of the assasination of Bhutto, another round of bad anti-terrorist proposals, I blogged on the idiocy of his proposal for cyber-warfare against AQ yesterday. There are two ways to fight terrorism, the way the British responded to the IRA in the 1970s and the way the West Germans responded to Baader-Meinhof. The British used the tactics of torture and internment (sound familiar) which only made the situation worse. The IRA gained supporters worldwide, including US appologists like Giuliani himself. the West German approach of using police powers and absolutely refusing to recognize terrorists as political prisoners did work. That is why the British switched to the west German tactics and why the US should do the same against Al Qaeda. But this whole debate is not one that the US establishment media will ever allow.

      So why won't the establishment media ask Giuliani why he supported the terrorist organization that attempted to murder my family?

      Its because it does not fit their script. According to the script Gore was a liar, Bush was dumb but good company and Giuliani is the fearless crusader against terrorism. No mention of course of the fact that he tried to make his mobbed-up partner DHS secretary and he positioned the emergency control room in the WTC complex so that it was in easy walking distance of city hall for his shag-fests with Judith and the rest of the harem. Those facts don't fit the script. They only get asked by the establishment media at all because Josh Marshall at TPM and the rest of the blogosphere have insisted on it.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    24. Re:Call Jon Stewart by BenjiTheGreat98 · · Score: 3, Funny

      I only laugh at a comment on slashdot if it's already modded "+5 Funny".

      --
      :wq
    25. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Phanatic1a · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the point is that Britney/Paris/Nicole aren't "real" news compared to actual events in Iraq/Afghanistan/RonPaul then why is Kurt Cobain somehow so important to deserve mention in the headline?

      NB: I don't really give a shit about Cobain. This post is intended solely to explain why his suicide is "real" news.

      1. Cobain was the frontman for an extremely influential rock group that, rightly or wrongly, was credited by many with revitalizing a stagnant music industry and birthing a new genre of music. Rightly or wrongly, the band was seen as the flagship for a generation of youth in a way that whoever the trendy socialite-of-the-month isn't.
      2. A suicide is a rather more final, and newsworthy event than Paris or Britney or Nicole or Lohan has done so far. If Paris Hilton or Britney Spears were to kill herself, then I submit that *would* be a newsworthy death, and Cobain's suicide even moreso than that.

    26. Re:Call Jon Stewart by Ced_Ex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Kurt Cobain was more famous in death than in life sadly. It wasn't until he was dead that people finally realized what he had brought to the music world.

      --
      Live forever, or die trying.
    27. Re:Call Jon Stewart by spectro · · Score: 2

      Stewart and Colbert are stand-up comedians, you have to be very good at improv comedy to do that. Colbert has the upper hand thought since he studied improvisational theater

      --
      HTML is obsolete. It's time for a new, simpler and richer markup language.
  7. Has the world gone mad? by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I don't care if Nicole Ritchie had a loose bowel movement today. Or any of that "believe and achieve" bullshit. News is news. If I wanted this brand of news, I would turn on MTV.

    For quite a few years now, the only place I have gone for objective reporting on real American news is the BBC and Reuters. So I suppose the world hasn't gone mad. Only American media has.

    --
    The game.
  8. Kurt Cobain on the TV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    Did you hear Kurt Cobain was on the TV? ...and on the carpet, the walls, the furniture...

  9. Very very simple to answer... by yroJJory · · Score: 4, Informative

    What's wrong with TV news? It receives Nielsen Ratings. That means they are not treated as informational, but rather as entertainment and require audience share (in the eyes of those who watch the "bottom line").

    And I'm not the only one who thinks this. There are papers about this very subject.

    --
    Jory
    1. Re:Very very simple to answer... by YU5333021 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But to play devil's advocate here, what's wrong about Nielsen Ratings? After all, it tells us (to a fair degree of accuracy) what people are willing to watch and what they aren't. Turns out local news that start the program with weather alerts, sports analysis, and a human interest story, are doing a lot better than the ones that will be discussing the most recent UN resolution on global poverty or the likes. Give people what they want, and if it's celebrity death matches that they want, so be it. Internet has more than filled the information niche that was unavailable to us 10 years ago. I have never felt more informed than today.

      The heartbreak comes from the fact that our common citizens are willing to settle for so much less. Have you seen the voting turnout percentages? It fits appropriately with the quality of television media as a source of any relevant information. This country is so big (population and geography wise) that we are largely detached from each other on certain levels. To be trivial for a second, all stats point to this country having a religious majority, yet I don't think I know a single person that has gone to a church since childhood, if ever. At the same time, any brand or product that wants national recognition will have to be equally appealing to my type and to those whom I may not have anything in common with. I can't blame the media for trying to do the same: appeal to as many people without alienating anyone. Thus we have reality TV shows about ex-football players who have to dance with dead celebrities in order to save us from a zombie attack!

      And stay tuned to find out which popular breakfast cereal could probably give you anal leakage, and kill your mother. After the weather report, with Al.

  10. We already know this by Oddster · · Score: 5, Insightful

    We are once again experiencing the century-old practice of Yellow Journalism. In fact, I would say that media's role in how the Spanish-American War was sold to the public is disturbingly parallel to that of the invasion of Iraq, just with Karl Rove at the helm instead of William Randolph Hearst. What we think is this new medium of "infotainment" is simply an update of sensationalism.

    Unfortunately, history and civics education in the US are so atrocious that I would not expect many Americans to remember any of this, making us doomed to repeat mistakes from a hundred years ago.

    1. Re:We already know this by deniable · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Try Rupert Murdoch instead of Karl Rove and you've got a winner.

    2. Re:We already know this by tsotha · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which newspaper does Rove own?

  11. But at least by Smordnys+s'regrepsA · · Score: 5, Funny

    the comments are fair and balanced!

    --
    Just -1, Troll talking to another.
  12. Why cover real news... by ChePibe · · Score: 2, Insightful

    When rehashing a poll, showing a live feed from a local station, or summarizing whatever happens to be in the latest tabloid can make the money?

    Seriously, folks. Think about it.

    There could be dozens of reporters, embedded with U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan right now. Long-term. Providing up-to-date information, first-hand insight, and actually getting to know the areas they are in.

    But, sadly, this would cost actual money (one could make various political arguments on each side of this as to why it is or is not covered, but let's focus on the bottom-line here). So, instead of, you know, covering these things in an in-depth fashion, the media might, every once in a while, drop in a guy for a 24-48 hour stint with the primary purpose of getting a nice quick video snap of something interesting. Whooptey-freakin'-doo. They'll spend the rest of the time sitting in hotels, out-sourcing reporting to heaven only knows who (and sometimes it appears the reporter doesn't even know). So rather than getting the look from someone who could have some expertise in the area, we get something filtered through Lord only knows who that's working as a stringer.

    Then, instead of more reports, or an in-depth report, we get a short report followed by commentary from someone whose whole qualification on this matter - and all others - is the fact that he/she has an opinion on the matter. It's the same on all the networks, every last one of them. Why pay for reporters to go out and do expensive foot work when you can get short snippets from outsourced reports and then fill air time with someone blathering on about them?

    There are a few good reporters on the ground in Iraq - they're called bloggers, and the reader automatically understands and accepts there's a bias to their reports. But for the most part, the mainstream television media has become a sick joke - whether it's CNN, Fox or MSNBC.

  13. Journalism and Journalism Majors by the+Dragonweaver · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I have worked in and around newsrooms from college on and I know, firsthand, where much of the problem lies. Journalism, that is, the finding and reporting of facts, has little to do with a journalism major, which is primarily interested in "the proper form." As the article says, "the emotional center," or, more specifically, an insulated and insular group of people attempting to capture the attention of the audience.

    There was a study done on mid-level news markets about eight or nine years ago, and what they found is that reporters have a lot in common with one another. They tend to rent, not to buy. (This is quite understandable, as "two weeks notice" doesn't happen in news; more often a person finds out of Friday that they don't need to come back on Monday.) They tend to live in the city rather than suburban or rural areas. (Again, understandable given the commute.) They tend to be single rather than married (stability issues again) and use certain services more than others-- transit, fitness centers, and so on. The upshot was that the necessary living patterns for reporters-- again, not big-city reporters, but mid-market types-- meant both that a certain point of view was attracted to the lifestyle, and that the point of views of the people involved would necessarily change.

    And that viewpoint-- we're not talking political here, though it does play a role-- agrees with 2% of the wider US population. Two percent.

    Or in other words, the viewpoints of 98% of the population are foreign to the average reporter. Moreover, the average reporter is your typical person, which by and large means the vast majority of them are, basically, lazy. How many of you just get through your day, doing the basic minimum that your job requires? Well, imagine what that's like as a reporter, when you don't have somebody breathing down your neck to report the facts, but instead have them breathing down your neck to "find the emotional center." That reporter's going to find the emotional center, and is almost certainly going to do so using a mental template (Insert Issue A into Slot B and add Cute Kid/Pet/Quip at end.) You end up with lazy reporting.

    Lazy reporting gets you those stories about farmers that always seem to imply that they must be hicks, or slow, or obsessed with "weird things" because they aren't smart/hip/normal enough to move to the city, like "real people." Or the ones that as what [X racial group] thinks about a subject, as if a vast group of people who share a few alleles must have similar opinions. Or, in the most common template of them all, the good little underdog against the evil corporation/city council/religious group.

    Why do I get my news online? Because a well-done story, linked back to source documents and complete transcripts, is yards and away from "San Francisco tiger mauls two and kills one; blood and guts at eleven" (past teasers and grainy footage and the obligatory Horrified Bystander.) I know what news is, and I don't confuse it with reality-entertainment.

    --
    Actually I am a lab rat in an elaborate plot to take over the world.
    1. Re:Journalism and Journalism Majors by causality · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I have worked in and around newsrooms from college on and I know, firsthand, where much of the problem lies. Journalism, that is, the finding and reporting of facts, has little to do with a journalism major, which is primarily interested in "the proper form."

      Yes, this is known as Newspeak. The real understanding of the problem is when you see just how widespread this is and that it's not just limited to the newsrooms. Look at what has happened throughout the years to words like "conservative" or "liberal" and how many times within one lifetime they change meanings.

      As the article says, "the emotional center," or, more specifically, an insulated and insular group of people attempting to capture the attention of the audience.
      .......

      Well, imagine what that's like as a reporter, when you don't have somebody breathing down your neck to report the facts, but instead have them breathing down your neck to "find the emotional center."

      Odd that the demands made to reporters are to find an emotional appeal, and coincidentally enough that's also the same thing you would look for if your goal was to manipulate people. Hmm, what are the chances of that? And how we love our entertainers! The doctor who cures cancer is going to be a rather anonymous figure one month later, but if someone can sing and dance and act we need to know every last detail of their personal life.

      And that viewpoint-- we're not talking political here, though it does play a role-- agrees with 2% of the wider US population. Two percent.

      For all the talk of diversity, it's amazing how the only form of diversity we don't care about is that of worldviews.

      Lazy reporting gets you those stories about farmers that always seem to imply that they must be hicks, or slow, or obsessed with "weird things" because they aren't smart/hip/normal enough to move to the city, like "real people." Or the ones that as what [X racial group] thinks about a subject, as if a vast group of people who share a few alleles must have similar opinions.

      What these all have in common is that they are about group identity. Lots of lovely "us against them" dynamics can be found here, with a hint of "divide and conquer". To whom would such a thing be useful?

      Or, in the most common template of them all, the good little underdog against the evil corporation/city council/religious group.

      And this one is called "lip service", in this case to the concept of individuality. None of the $underdog vs $large_group conflicts are ever the sort that could truly change or disrupt $social_order aka $business_as_usual. Instead, they're all nice and sanitized and safe and they fit rather neatly within the boundaries of mainstream thought. Any "debate" presented is about which prescribed point of view (typically along a one-dimensional continuum such as left vs. right) more accurately describes the subject and is therefore phony.

      These kinds of patterns are literally everywhere in mass media. They are not at all limited to this one example. You should draw your own conclusions as to what this means. One idea is that modern "democracies" accomplish with propaganda (sometimes called anonymous authority) the same degree of control that despots of old accomplished with the sword (overt authority); with the second method the people knew very well that control was being exerted.
      --
      It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education. - Einstein
  14. Yeah, read this yesterday by Master+of+Transhuman · · Score: 4, Interesting

    A pretty good piece.

    But it's not new. You can go back to Aleister Crowley complaining about the press (and he was a "celebrity" who constantly ended up in the press) being a bunch of hacks with an agenda - and that was back in the late 1800's. Hitler said the same thing except he blamed it all on the Jews.

    Some years back former CIA director William Casey publicly said that ALL the mainstream media was either owned (through fronts) or controlled by the CIA. He wasn't joking when he said it.

    I see nothing on the air to discredit that statement. Quite a few people have pointed out that large numbers of (supposedly) "ex"-CIA analysts are doing the writing and editing for most of the major media - even including some of the (supposedly) left wing "alternative" media. The excuse is that CIA analysts are good at producing concise, condensed recaps of analytical material - which makes them great journalists.

    Except as General Gogol said, "Nobody ever leaves the KGB."

    And once you get beyond the CIA, you've got corporate interests - and beyond, corporate stupidity - and beyond that, personal incompetence and stupidity.

    How "news" could survive that chain of barriers without being completely useless is beyond me.

    Look at today - we've got a bit of "news" coming out of India that supposedly Benazir Bhutto was shot with some kind of laser gun!

    Right. I'll buy that for a dollar. More disinformation to confuse the matter, so that anybody who thinks she was killed by the Pakistani government looks like a "conspiracy nut".

    --
    Richard Steven Hack - This sig is TOO GODDAMN SHORT TO DO ANYTHING USEFUL WITH! MORONS!
    1. Re:Yeah, read this yesterday by ThousandStars · · Score: 2, Informative

      Interestingly enough, Bob Woodward came to speak at Clark University when I was an undergrad, and during the Q & A some idiot got up and blathered a conspiratorial question about the CIA and censorship that was about as stupid as your post. Woodward responded with something to the effect of, "Do you think anyone could stop me from publishing something that's true?" he went on to say?" It was a rhetorical question from someone who actually knows what's he's talking about directed at a fool weaned on Internet conspiracy theories, and it was as effective a silencer of your type as I've ever seen.

    2. Re:Yeah, read this yesterday by Paladin144 · · Score: 2, Informative
      You are so naive. It's cute. But also a little sad.

      The problem is that you were listening to the sellout half of Woodward & Bernstein. His former partner Carl Bernstein wrote an article about the CIA's infiltration of the mainstream media (it's called Operation Mockingbird and it's no conspiracy theory. It's conspiracy fact) and was never heard from in the MSM again.

      So, tell me again how my "type" is silenced again?

  15. Hate to respond to my own post, but... by ChePibe · · Score: 5, Informative

    Might I recommend highly the Newshour with Jim Lehrer to all readers?

    The program features actual experts. That don't yell over each other. Each has time to form a response to questions. It's amazing, astounding, the best TV news available, period.

    1. Re:Hate to respond to my own post, but... by WindowlessView · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Might I recommend highly the Newshour with Jim Lehrer to all readers?

      The Newshour is decent only relative to competition. True, they are willing to devote 15 or 20 minutes to a topic and don't yell over each other. However, they rarely ask tough questions and never force tough answers. Politicians know it is a safe place to spin.

      If you look at the composition of guests on the Newshour your realize they are as bad as anyone else, just better behaved. The "experts" tend to be from the usual corporate funded think tanks. If anything, being in DC, it is worst than most shows in booking the standard power elite stooges. You can count on one hand the number of guests who might actually rock the boat or say something outside the Washington defined limits of the topic.

      --
      Leave the gun, take the cannolis.
  16. They have to sell commercials by Thaelon · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What's wrong with TV news? They have to sell commercial time, so they air only the most sensational stories. Or the spice real news up to be sensational in order to sell commercial time. What's wrong is they claim to be in the business of providing news when they're really in the business of selling commercial time to advertisers. And the need for many viewers to watch these commercials are the reason for the sensational news.

    Slashdot is about as guilty. See repeated stories of "bricking" where no devices were irrecoverably harmed, that is, "bricked".

    --

    Question everything

    1. Re:They have to sell commercials by gooman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I wish I had mod points for you. You got it right, a little glib, but right.

      In the U.S. today ALL NEWS MEDIA (T.V. Radio, Newspapers and Magazines) are nothing more than advertising delivery methods.
      You can argue all you want about bias, agenda, fair, unfair... It's all irrelevant.
      Accurately informing the public is not close to a priority anymore. Selling advertising is.

      The Daily Show with it's "bite the hand that feeds it" attitude is only done to appear edgy and thereby appeal to the demographic. If the ratings weren't there, the advertisers would leave and the show would be gone. Personally, I find it sad that so many here claim it as a major source of their news. Funny and entertaining, maybe, but a major source of information? No.

      --
      "Kittens give Morbo gas!"
    2. Re:They have to sell commercials by blitzkrieg3 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Slashdot is about as guilty. See repeated stories of "bricking" where no devices were irrecoverably harmed, that is, "bricked".
      Slashdot is a small community of like minded people that submits news stories to editors whom are recognized to be worthy of deciding what is relevant. The site is owned by Sourceforge and is mostly controlled by CmdrTaco, who has largely resisted corporatization.

      TV news goes out to millions of viewers every day and is owned by corporate interests such as GE, Viacom, and News Corp. These companies control the integrity of their newsrooms, and control the content that keeps Joe Public informed.

      Sadly, even though the Slashdot editors/submitters have less of a responsibility to the public, they do a better job than most newsrooms. I get more information reading just the summaries in the politics section than I could ever get watching TV news.
    3. Re:They have to sell commercials by catchblue22 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What's wrong with TV news? They have to sell commercial time, so they air only the most sensational stories. Or the spice real news up to be sensational in order to sell commercial time. What's wrong is they claim to be in the business of providing news when they're really in the business of selling commercial time to advertisers. And the need for many viewers to watch these commercials are the reason for the sensational news.

      You seem to be operating under the assumption that our current model for funding TV news by commercials is a commandment written in stone. It is not. If funding TV news by commercials has led to a debasement in the quality of news, then we need to change the funding model. The function of the News Media is to serve the public good by providing the public with an accurate view of reality. Perhaps these media giants should be forced by law, as a condition of their use of the public airwaves to set aside a fixed amount of money to fund the news; that funding should go to a separate and independent organization/department that will gather and report the news. This type of "separation of powers" would almost certainly reduce the kind of corruption I read about in the article.

      --
      This and no other is the root from which a tyrant springs; when first he appears as a protector - Plato (423 to 327 BC)
  17. Show over substance by Opportunist · · Score: 2, Insightful

    JibJab had a pretty good piece about it, What we call the news.

    News, or rather, reports about events that moved the world or had some serious impact for national and international developments, got replaced by patched together stories about some celebrities doing some crap. Now, what kind of "news" is that? What kind of "information" is that? Who the fuck cares whether some blonde bimbo shits into the pool of her ex? But we don't get to hear that some countries in Africa are fighting over their border, which can and does have some impact in our lives, even if it only leads to more expensive coffee.

    Sit down for the next news and watch carefully what you get to hear. How much is about politics, how much about technology, how much about tabloid news (i.e. celebrities and other petty, meaningless, pointless and mindless rubbish)? You'll notice that the last category takes up a sizable portion if not the majority of the "information" you get.

    Then, watch politics closely. How much is national, how much international? And how much of the national news is more than thinly veiled election advertisment?

    How much is actually information, and how much is just something "inciting", something to speak to your heart rather than to your mind?

    That's what's wrong with the news. It's not about information anymore.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
  18. You forgot the dupes ... by oneiros27 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Slashdot has nothing on dupes compared to the headline news ...

    Well, so long as it involved interns and politicians. I can't remember how many times the news seemed preoccupied with Chandra Levy, Monica Lewinsky, or whatever mostly unimportant event that got covered each day with slightly new 'breaking' information. If you want that, you have to go to Digg to see what each 'breaking' website has on the latest Apple rumors.

    At least Slashdot doesn't do the completely useless teasers ... 'Will we get snow tomorrow?' I'm guessing you could've told me in the time you toyed with telling us before every commercial break, making us think it's going to be on right after the commercials, but saving it for the LAST thing. I'm surprised they haven't tried 'Are tornados coming and should you run for your life? Find out next!'. Nope, we can go straight to the article, discover the article summary was completely inaccurate and/or misleading, without having to sit around for 45 minutes.

    It's crap like this why I don't watch the TV news anymore. I do listen to news on the radio, and they do the same thing, but I get traffic reports every 10 minutes, which is important in the Washington, DC area -- I just don't listen to it for 2 hrs straight, or I know I'll hear the same stories repeated.

    --
    Build it, and they will come^Hplain.
  19. There is some hope in Australia by kamatsu · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Here in Australia, we have one network that is government funded and does not fall victim to any form of sensationalism.

    The Australian Broadcasting Commission, ambiguously referred to as the ABC, is entirely funded by the government and therefore has no interest in ratings. The news and current affairs coverage is usually top-notch, although occasionally it demonstrates a slight left-wing bias.

    I switch to Channel Ten, and I see Sandra Sully cutting to some recycled footage while talking about some cloning technology, and concluding the story with "Of course, human cloning is still many years away." Then, they use computer effects to duplicate Sandra Sully, and the two Sandras say in unison.. "or is it?".. followed by 15 minutes of someone rambling on about "Entertainment News", followed by a cut to the loud and annoying weatherman who spends more time advertising charities than talking about the weather, then cut back to Sandra Sully who will engage in some useless banter with the sport guy. And the sports report is just a veiled advertisement for the sports programme they have on later that night, and then they do some "Australian Idol" news, and finish up to pictures of the beach.

    ABC is at least a safe haven of real journalism. I'm not even sure the people working at Channel Ten are even journalists.

  20. Kurt Cobain Suicide importance by Tweekster · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sorry but the failure to cover that story was pretty much right on. It wasnt of any significant importance. I was a fan of his but even can realize the fact that it was pop icon news and nothing more.

    --
    The phrase "more better" is acceptable English. suck it grammar Nazis
    1. Re:Kurt Cobain Suicide importance by BCW2 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Only one of them actually changed anything at all. Lennon changed music, and his murder was news like any other murder. Of the others, one was mostly ignored and the others still takes up 100 times more airtime than it ever should have.

      If it involves a celebrity there is a 99% chance that it's fluff and won't make a lick of difference to my life in any way.

      --
      Professional Politicians are not the solution, they ARE the problem.
  21. Television news? by AJWM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Isn't that about as much an oxymoron as "reality TV"?

    --
    -- Alastair
  22. There Is No Audience by Doc+Ruby · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The total evening network news audience now stands at around 26 million, down about a million from the year before. It has now dropped by about 1 million a year for the last 25 years.

    Ratings, which count the number of television sets in the U.S. tuned to a given program, declined almost 4% between November 2005 and November 2006, falling to 18.2, down from 18.9 in November 2005, according to data from Nielsen Media Research.1 That is about the same pace as in recent years.2

    Meanwhile, share -- the percentage of just those sets in use at a given time that are tuned to a program -- declined more, 8%, to 34 in November 2006, from 37 the same time in 2005. Now, only about a third of the TV sets in use at the dinner hour are tuned to the network news.

    Those stats are from 2006. After another year, that probably means there's only 25M or fewer viewers. Half the number from 1982. But the rates are much faster than they inummerately describe (they watcht too much TV to be good at math). 1M of 25M is a 4% drop in 2006; the 1M drop in 1983 was a 2% drop. And since the US population was about 230M in 1982, but 300M now, we're talking about a drop from about 22% to about 8% of the population tuning in. Which is a drop to almost one third, in case you're wondering.

    That one third still watching TV is probably mostly the same people as a quarter century ago, now glued to sets in their nursing homes, unable to change the channel. And the stats don't even address the number of people who now don't just mainline the nightly news as the gospel truth, but also cross-reference with the Internet, including actually discussing the news on blogs.

    The news has never been a good business for the broadcasters. It was just jammed into their commercial offerings to justify their use of the public airwaves and all kinds of other subsidies they get, and to make the rest of the "messages" (advertisements and the propaganda disguised as "news") more respectable. The rest of their programming makes more money in the ads that's their only real product. So they'll be glad to call it quits once no one is interested in holding them to any kind of "public service" any more.

    As soon as about an hour or so of actual news is clickable YouTube on my bigscreen TV that my friends have all recommended, I'll be happy to let them get away with finally just canceling their shabby efforts.
    --

    --
    make install -not war

  23. Remember who is the customer by argStyopa · · Score: 4, Insightful

    For Pete's sake, people, remember who is the customer in the "TV transaction".

    It's NOT the viewers. It's the ADVERTISERS.

    The advertisers pay the stations to wave their products in front of X number of eyeballs. The television shows (and yes, that includes news shows) are simply the bait to keep X at the highest possible number. The programs are NOTHING MORE THAN BAIT. Since the presence of bait+advertising is zero-sum (ie more bait means less minutes of advertising to viewers), then the ONLY tactical goal of the studio is to make a show that will keep a person watching even when the bait is taken away (commercial breaks).

    Keep that in mind at all times, and you'll find that watching TV, while occasionally entertaining, quickly becomes repulsive.

    --
    -Styopa
  24. John Lennon sucked. by HornWumpus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Not as bad a Paul though.

    He's a one man demonstration of what was wrong with the record industry. Forty years of crap, #1's via payolla (but only one per disk).

    --
    John McAfee 'It was like that time I hired that Bangkok prostitute; to do my taxes, while I fucked my accountant'
  25. Two words! by mabu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    What's wrong with TV news in two words: FAIRNESS DOCTRINE.

    It really is as simple as that. In 1987 news media was crippled. And that was the beginning of the end.

  26. Reporting Is Expensive, Pundits are Cheap by EXTomar · · Score: 4, Informative

    One of the major problems with TV reporting is that the costs of doing real news worthy reporting for a 5 minute on air segment is astronomical compared to just calling up some "expert" to talk about what they think happened. And as it turns out, the pundit probably scores better for most demographics (ie. they look better, sound better).

    We saw this happen (again) with the run up to the Iraq War where it would have taken months of reporters actually doing the research and tracking leads to develop a story that many people would find uncomfortable if not right hostile. The alternative is that they call up some retired military guy and ask him "What do you think is going on?" Almost every news source in the US opted for the cheaper pundits than the expensive reporting and we got exactly what we paid for.

  27. Re:The Answer is... by binford2k · · Score: 2, Funny

    *ONLY* 2hrs of TV a week? Jesus, I think that if I watched that much TV, my brain would fall right out of my asshole.

  28. Then don't watch American News! by Phoenix666 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Watch BBC news coverage of America. They're far worthier of that appellation than any outlet in the United States, and they also mostly don't give a crap which political party or corporation they might offend by reporting the facts. As an additional plus, they are the one media operation that Rupert Murdoch can't buy and subvert.

    It seems many other Americans agree, because the BBC news seems to have grown from being on only one channel (BBC America) morning and night, to four.

    --
    Do what you can, with what you have, where you are.
  29. Re:What's wrong with TV news by some+damn+guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    That's the beauty of Lou Dobbs, he doesn't have to be anything other than the train wreck that he is to get ratings. You watch his show and you get the feeling he thinks he has it because he's some towering intellectual giant (or O'Reilly for that matter). Whatever, they both press people's buttons and that gets ratings. They're like guests on Jerry Springer with million-dollar paychecks and nice suits, but still totally unaware how much the media bigwigs are laughing at them while they rake it in.

    Immigration is a complex issue and I don't pretend to have an easy solution. All I know is that if I was born dirt poor in some rural wasteland in Mexico with a family and no opportunity, I'd be cutting your lawn or washing your dishes right now. The way Lou talks you'd think the first thing he'd do if he woke up a dirt poor illegal in East L.A. tomorrow is turn himself in. Heh, just not buying it. If I thought for one second he would feel the same way if it was a bunch of white Irishmen sneaking across the border I'd take back every bad thing I'd ever said about him.

    Sorry, but "better than O'Reilly" doesn't get you over the bar.

  30. A non American view of the US News by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    As a Brit who has traveled extensively in the USA (visited 48 of 50 states) since 1975 and worked for an American Company for 20+ years I have seen US TV News really dumb down over the years.
    Lets take this example.
    At the time of the first Gulf War, many National Guard Units were being called up. I was on Holiday in New Orleans and the TV News had around 50 minutes (including ad breaks) devoted to the departure of National Guard units to bases where they were replacing the troops who were on their way to the Gulf. Note the coverage was all about the NG units not the regular forces leaving to fight. Lots of weeping relatives and yellow ribbons were shown.
    At the end of the News, there was a 15 second piece about the Resignation of Maggie Thatcher ( British PM). Given the Britain was sending many thousands of soldiers/sailors & airmen to the gulf to fight alongside the US forces, I felt almost insulted by the coverage given.

    The coverage of the Current US Election(Iowa etc) is quite widespread on UK Broadcast Media (TV & Radio). We are aware of the implications that a change in the occupant of the White House can have on Global stability etc. I wonder how many US citizens are equally aware given the predominance of coverage of 'Celebrity' has on US TV. I was in the US a couple of months ago and was amazed at the amount of time given to what I call Celebrity PAP rather then serious news items. This is IMHO dumbing down.

    Personally, I don't give a about the antics/sex/drug/etc habits of so called Celebrities. But I'm at the age where I can be a member of the 'Grumpy Old Men' club (Excellent BBC TV Series).

    1. Re:A non American view of the US News by matty619 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Its probably just that everything sounds more legitimate when spoken with an English accent lol

  31. Six Sigma by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2, Informative
    Oh geez, Six Sigma was involved in this disaster! No wonder the news sucks!

    GE had acquired NBC back in 1986, when it bought RCA. By 2003, GE's managers and strategists were getting around to seeing whether the same tactics that made the production of turbine generators more efficient could improve the production of television news. This had some truly bizarre consequences. To say that this Dateline correspondent with the messy corner office greeted these internal corporate changes with self-destructive skepticism is probably an understatement.
      Six Sigma--the methodology for the improvement of business processes that strives for 3.4 defects or fewer per million opportunities--was a somewhat mysterious symbol of management authority at every GE division. Six Sigma messages popped up on the screens of computers or in e-mail in-boxes every day. Six Sigma was out there, coming, unstoppable, like a comet or rural electrification. It was going to make everything better, and slowly it would claim employees in glazed-eyed conversions. Suddenly in the office down the hall a coworker would no longer laugh at the same old jokes. A grim smile suggested that he was on the lookout for snarky critics of the company. It was better to talk about the weather.
    While Six Sigma's goal-oriented blather and obsession with measuring everything was jarring, it was also weirdly familiar, inasmuch as it was strikingly reminiscent of my college Maoism I class. Mao seemed to be a good model for Jack Welch and his Six Sigma foot soldiers; Six Sigma's "Champions" and "Black Belts" were Mao's "Cadres" and "Squad Leaders."
    I became painfully familiar with Six Sigma working at a large tech company (it's so large, its stock symbol is a single letter). That's a fairly accurate description of what it was like working there.

    I'm surprised to hear that Six Sigma even makes the production of turbine generators more efficient. I actually doubt this. Six Sigma is a management fad, and it's hard to identify exactly what it brings to the table. In fact, although I had to put up with it for so long, I'm still at a loss to describe it. Maybe this excerpt from its Wikipedia page will help:

    Six Sigma is a set of practices originally developed by Motorola to systematically improve processes by eliminating defects.[1] A defect is defined as nonconformity of a product or service to its specifications.
    While the particulars of the methodology were originally formulated by Bill Smith at Motorola in 1986[2], Six Sigma was heavily inspired by six preceding decades of quality improvement methodologies such as quality control, TQM, and Zero Defects. Like its predecessors, Six Sigma asserts the following:
    Continuous efforts to reduce variation in process outputs is key to business success
    Manufacturing and business processes can be measured, analyzed, improved and controlled
    Succeeding at achieving sustained quality improvement requires commitment from the entire organization, particularly from top-level management
    The term "Six Sigma" refers to the ability of highly capable processes to produce output within specification. In particular, processes that operate with six sigma quality produce at defect levels below 3.4 defects per (one) million opportunities (DPMO)[3]. Six Sigma's implicit goal is to improve all processes to that level of quality or better.
    Essentially what happens is that people at managerial levels have no idea what to do, and they reach toward this thing as a canned recipe for how to do their jobs. And it certainly wastes a lot of time, since you have to get training and attend seminars, and it certainly impresses people who confuse activity with progress. It sure as hell generates a lot of Powerpoint slides. It also seems to have a cult-like quality to it. Six Sigma directives come raining down from the highest levels of management and the urgency behind them is palpable- and everyone is freaked because it's all incredibly important but nobody understands what it is.
  32. Reuters? The BBC? Unbiased? by SmallFurryCreature · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Don't you really mean "agree with my world view", because only a total tool would think Reuters in unbiased, last year once again had them caught out several times. Don't also forget that it is thanks to Reuters that the RIAA and the like can just publish their press-releases with whatever they want because Reuters (and other press agencies) have made it their business to simply publish press-releases and NEVER EVER investigate, but still insisting these copied press-releases are "real" news.

    As for the BBC, if you think the BBC is unbiased, you are insane. Don't mistake, "ooh they don't say the same as fox news" with unbiased. True unbiased reporting requires taking NO position. Not left, not right. Not hard line, not bleeding heart.

    Today the weather was cold. BIASED! By whose standards?

    Today the temp reach a low of -4 during the midday. Unbiased?

    No, it is the "low" that does it. Some might consider it a high.

    Today, at 12:00 the temperature at the bilt (dutch met office) reached -4 celcius. That is unbiased.

    Now look at the BBC and Reuters again and read the texts carefully and see just how many times the BBC/Reuters takes a position, trying to convince you.

    I see the claim of unbiased reporting attached to the BBC so often I think most people just don't understand the meaning of the word.

    Unbiased reporting means reporting the facts, not opinions. Note that at no point does the original author of the story we are discussing EVER seem to want to report JUST the facts, he is upset because NBC did not want to report his OPINION!

    As brutal as it may be, the number of iraq casualties is a fact. The number of which qualify as civilian is already an opinion. That people should care about it at all, that is even more of an opinion. Unbiased reporting is extremely rare, stuff like "the coldest day of 2007" is about it. Note that the BBC like almost everyone else now has weather segments that become a part of the SHOW, complete with "LIVE REPORTING".

    --

    MMO Quests are like orgasms:

    You may solo them, I prefer them in a group.

    1. Re:Reuters? The BBC? Unbiased? by thatskinnyguy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I get the feeling that you're European. When it comes to news from within the US (politics, etc.), BBC and Reuters are generally less biased than other outlets like the New York Times, SeeBS (sic), Fox News, NBC, ABC, CNN, and other outlets from the 'States.

      --
      The game.
  33. You hit a pet peeve of mine there by Moraelin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In school, I constantly saw ghetto kids slowly gain an understanding of computers (under my tutelage), then desperately hid it from their peers (to whom any form of academic achievement by one of their own had racial overtones).


    You've hit a pet peeve of mine there, and I don't know if it's even racial.

    The thing is, it's not only ghetto kids. A lot of white adults too seem to have jumped on some sort of a "computers are too complicated, I don't have time for that nerdy crap" bandwagon. Even as more and more jobs require at least elementary computer skills, it's become more and more unfashionable to admit having even those minimal skills.

    And it's not just believing that they can't handle it, and giving up without even trying. A lot do try, see that they can, then try even harder to hide that from their peers. I've seen people who _can_ handle a computer when they're alone, turn into helpless illiterates when there's a witness there.

    We scared off the normal people, if you will. It's become a thing of pride to be as far from nerdy as possible.

    In fact, in some circles it's become fashionable to be stupid. Cue a downward spiral as each member tries to not end up in the upper 50% of their group.

    It's kinda funny. Human culture for _millenia_ respected intelligence. If you look as far back as the ancient Egyptians, a little known fact is that they actually had a phonetic set, but it was seen as a thing of _pride_ to be smart and educated enough to use the hieroglyphs. A relatively common form of flattery was to address a letter "to your scribe", meaning, basically, "I know that you can read it yourself and are your own scribe." The Greeks and Romans took pride in being able to read, write and master such subjects as administration, law, rhetoric and philosophy. (Which back then was _the_ science.) Etc.

    Even the middle ages, weren't that dark a time in that aspect. There still were plenty of people trying to do alchemy, astrology and philosophy, which back the was what science _was_. Sure, it looks like ignorant and pointless compared to the modern scientific method and the later figures of the Renaissance, but nevertheless, those people were trying to figure out how the world works. Or there were advances in technology that we don't even learn about these days. The physics of the great gothic cathedrals and their mess of buttresses, are nothing short of amazing when you consider that they didn't even have a proper notation for that. Sure, it's trivial nowadays to calculate the vectors and see why it works, but that someone came up with that back then, it's amazing.

    And again, noone considered it shameful to be seen in the company of an astrologer or alchemist. It was a thing of pride, in fact, and even kings and bishops made sure to have one around.

    If you look as late as the 19'th century and early 20'th, the explosion of science was partially because people actually took advantage of the increasing opportunities to get an education. We have a whole category of "absent minded scientists", which were really nerdier than most people on Slashdot nowadays, and noone thought it was a social disgrace to be seen with one.

    So where did we go wrong? How did it become fashionable to be the most stupid of one's peers?

    How many potentially brilliant minds are we losing to that fashion? E.g., the ghetto kids you mention, some of them could become great scientists, and one or two might even discover the next great thing. But they don't, because their peers would mock any kind of academic interest or achievement.

    How much is this costing us, as a society? And how long until it bites us all in the arse?
    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:You hit a pet peeve of mine there by cvos · · Score: 2, Interesting
      ancient Egyptians, a little known fact is that they actually had a phonetic set,

      Britney Spears definintely has a phonetic set. Her singing isn't bad either.

      Seriously, to see what people care about compare real news websites to celebrity gossip sites - the latter beats the former by several orders of magnitude, and most gossip sites get more comments than /. articles

      It's quite clear what kind of news people want, and nothing short of censorship will slow the flow of drivel that pretends to be news.

      --
      I'm just here for the sigs
    2. Re:You hit a pet peeve of mine there by BakaHoushi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My theory, and feel free to tear this apart as necessary, is that the explosion of science and change over the course of the 20th century lead to this. Think of it this way. For most of human history, change was a slow, gradual concept. Yes, new theories and inventions were always coming out, but they were events, things to be celebrated. Now, scientific achievements are brought up so often (though never for more than 30 seconds) that they're impossible to keep track of. We went from horse and carriages to combustion engines, airplanes, to tanks and airliners, sports cars, jets, and helicopters, all in less than a century. Heck, we went to the MOON! We went from newspapers and books to radio, television, and then the Internet. With the Internet alone, well, no more modem noises, and you can get all this information on your cell-phone, too (which is another big change).

      The point is, people have been dominated by change. We have information and possibilities right at our fingertips. This is a huge change and, as you may recall, change scares people. People tend to resist it. How many elderly people still do things "their" way when they can do it more efficiently? A lot of human nature tells us to stick to our tried-and-true methods (even if they're no longer true).

      Computers are for geeks! ...Well, they were, anyway. There really weren't too many non-geeks online in the early to mid 1990's. This has changed a lot, with places like MySpace becoming buzzwords for even the most luddite-like politicians. However, the stigma has not changed. Computers are still for geeks, or so they say. And thus these values are passed on in the form of peer pressure. And people try as hard as they can to fit in with their peers. "Heh, computers are sooooooooo for nerds! I don't even know what computer I've got, I just use it to go to MySpace and YouTube!"

      With time, hopefully, these sorts of things will die down. For example, just look at cultural revolutions in our own country. After the death of Martin Luther King Jr. and the signing of the Civil Rights Act, there were plenty of people who were still as adamantly anti-black as could be. Even though they had no proof, they rejected the change from a position of being "the dominant race" to "equality." Since then, things have improved quite a bit. Why? Well, it's been 30-40 years. A lot of the old people who were that racist are dead now, and we have a new generation of kids who have grown up alongside blacks and other races are taking over, and blatant public racism is shunned. (Well, at least towards blacks. We still have a long way to go, though things are still hardly perfect here, but it's a good improvement)

      I suppose to summarize my idea, it would be this: Our scientific and cultural developments have outpaced our ability to adapt to changes as a society, which leads to many rejecting newer concepts out of confusion, fear, and stubbornness.

    3. Re:You hit a pet peeve of mine there by OverlordsShadow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So Very True. I am only two years out of high school and still remember that it was indeed fashionable to be stupid. People would always be putting themselves down and calling themselves stupid. It was funny to fail tests, miss assignments, or generally do poorly in every respect. Some people would be pissed off when they got their final grades but usually they let it slide and so did the teachers, the school board, and many parents. I remember classmates getting $100 per class passed. My parents would harass me for not gettin over a 90% average. I still believe that most of societies problems are starting in the home. Discipline your children, bring them up right and with values, spend time with them, and make productive people out of them. Having said that, 'The Man' can make that really hard to do. We want to attain stuff and lead 'good' lives and be 'well off'. So more and more people sacrifice a family for money and the ones that don't are stuck between working to pay for their families needs, or bringing them up right and generally poor. I have too much to say in one post and the thoughts lead every which way. I welcome other people thoughts and critisisms. (I might only be visited by the grammar nazi's).

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      Legalize Green Today!
    4. Re:You hit a pet peeve of mine there by tbannist · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think the problems you've outlined mostly come from American origins. Certainly the Christian Right has been actively involved in the war of science and education. We see that over and over again. Several other groups have been funding this because, well science eventually uncovers facts they don't like. Big Tobacco funds anti-global warming research. Why? Because it damages science in the eyes of the public and gets them off the hook for selling designed-to-be-addictive cancer tubes.

      The U.S. government is at it's most anti-scientific it's even been. Bush has lackeys censoring and editing public science projects to make sure the results are only the pre-approved results. Of course, now these U.S. groups are helping to organize stupidity in the rest of the world too.

      --
      Fanatically anti-fanatical
  34. That much is clear by Moraelin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Well, that much is clear. And I'm certainly not proposing to stop people from getting what they want.

    The question was, sorta, when did people start wanting to be stupid, and why? When did it become fashionable to have the intellectual and cultural horizon of a midget in a well?

    I'm not even as much asking about the news, as such. That is IMHO effect, rather than cause. As you were saying, people get the news they want to get. And I could even live happily with them getting some brainless entertainment -- news or otherwise -- for a couple of hours a day, if they still used their brains the rest of the time.

    But that's just my problem: when they turn off that TV or log off from those gossip sites, they go on to try to be even _more_ stupid IRL. For some people, when they take a break from their circle of RL friends and turn on the TV, their IQ actually goes up one notch. On those TV news they might even accidentally learn that there's a war in Iraq, or that some weird place called Africa even exists, or some trivia. But then they go to their RL circle of friends and it's time for another round of, "oh, I'm too stupid for computers... and I'm too stupid for geography too, and I'm too stupid to have an opinion about Iraq, and generally, little old me has trouble even figuring out which shoe goes on the left foot in less than 2-3 tries. Each day."

    Even that gossip and trivia they heard about on TV, are promptly discarded unless they're in the commonly-agreed fashionably brainless set, so as not to make their friends feel inadequate.

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:That much is clear by Oliver+Defacszio · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The question was, sorta, when did people start wanting to be stupid, and why?

      I think this is the easiest part of the equation to figure out -- the mainstream acceptance of rap and "thug life" culture. If you listen to ten rap songs (sucker for punishment?), I guarantee that at least 80% of those will allude to gettin' rich (and/or famous, and/or laid) without being educated. It's not *just* that they talk about success without "typical" education, it's that they often specifically target the white-collar world as being a bunch of pocket-protected nerds who can't dance. I don't think that anyone can argue that 50 Cent portrays an image of hilarious stupidity, yet also significant riches and affluence -- those who are either young enough or stupid enough to use him as a role model aren't likely to be staring down the barrel of too many microscopes in that particular pursuit.

      Let's face one fact: a typical education > career progression is about the least exciting path to financial success in the world. It's the case objectively, and severely exaggerated when placed next to being a celebrity, a gangster or an extreeeeeeeme athlete of some kind. Hell, if I could reasonably make the same living getting drunk every night on stage while some attractive young lady in the audience flashed her wares at me and licked her lips, I think... yeah, I probably would leave this cubicle career behind. In about one thousandth of a second.

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      Inventor of the term 'pardon my French'.
  35. Re: WMDs? Everyone thought they had them.... by MillionthMonkey · · Score: 2
    The end result, after almost five years of continuous bashing with a clue stick:

    Not to mention that Iraq itself didn't help its case any at all by not cooperating fully with the UN inspectors. Saddam kept acting like he had something to hide. If he'd have let insepctors in, let them go anywhere they wanted with NO obstruction, and had been fully transparent about things.....he'd still be in power today, killing and torturing his citizens just like he'd been doing before. If he'd show fully clean hands....no invasion would have occured.
    This is what happens when you watch too much TV.
  36. Re: WMDs? Everyone thought they had them.... by Asic+Eng · · Score: 2, Insightful
    MOST countries at that time though Iraq had WMDs of some sort...

    Technically true - most countries thought there was a possibility that Iraq had a few "WMDs" - like a few chemical grenades and no useful delivery system, but they didn't think that these constituted a threat to anybody. Hussein had to accept inspections, the US controlled the air space, his economy was severely restricted. Most countries thought he was not a problem, and most countries were right about that, as we now know.

    Saddam kept acting like he had something to hide.

    Yep, he was a scumbag, as we all realize. He probably wasn't all that bright, either. Having said that, pointing to the non-cooperation of a known scumbag, after you've killed around 100000 people and wrecked an entire country's infrastructure is a rather lousy excuse.

  37. He's right you know by mhollis · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I never had the opportunity to work directly with John as he worked the Dateline side and I was strictly on "news." I worked as an editor for NBC Nightly News and Today for over 8 years. You can see some of my work here. Like John, I was laid off in one of their "downsizing" operations.

    John writes in his article about how there was a lot of interest in finding stories in the emotional heart of America and no interest in stretching the understanding of most Americans and that is true of Dateline as well as the News division. John was a very well-known journalist hired by Dateline to do serious stories. He is right to have felt frustrated. There is zero interest in informing Americans what is truly happening and the best example is the 2000 election.

    NBC breathlessly announced that there was a "Constitutional Crisis" in the election and that unless this whole Florida recount was figured out it would turn into a real crisis. Then NBC sent cameras to get unique angles of election officials scrutinizing punch-card ballots and followed the court cases. Then, rather than inform America about what is written in the US Constitution, NBC and the other networks passively stood by while the US Supreme Court, in a completely extra-Constitutional step decided to hear the case of Bush v Gore and then decided to select who would be the next President of the United States.

    Americans' lack of understanding about their own Constitution was recently exemplified to me by a recently-retired naval Commander who told me that she thought that this Electoral College thing for choosing the President should be changed and that we should get our Congress to change it. I told her that our Constitution did not provide for the popular election of a President and that the States were in charge of that. The States choose how electors shall be chosen and most have a "Winner Takes All" approach but some apportion some electors according to how the popular vote went. I suggested that she ask her Governor and her State representatives to change how they chose their electors.

    NBC never reported that, when the US Supreme Court got involved, it was taking away the right of the State of Florida to apportion its electors. The top court that should have decided in this case was the Florida Supreme Court and, if they didn't decide the case or if a recount would have taken too long, the matter would have been thrown to the US Congress to decide whether or not to accept any electors from Florida, to accept the electors from all states save Florida or to decide the matter themselves.

    There was no crisis and NBC reporting that there was is another example of a story being sensationalized for ratings, which seems to be more important than NBC actually informing the viewers of the facts and what is really going on.

    Furthermore, none of the blogs I read, nor any of the radio or television stations I watched actually informed the public as to the facts of the Constitution. I did read one book well after Bush v Gore was settled stating that what the Supreme Court did was extralegal. I noted that the New York Times did have a story about how Florida's Supreme Court had final say and then they ignored this fact as soon as the case was heard by the Supreme Court of the US.

    So I think it's safe to say that everyone got the real story wrong.

    I'm really happy to see that John has gainful employment. I'm still looking for something full-time

    --
    Gods don't kill people, people with gods kill people.