Intel Resigns from One Laptop Per Child Project

theodp writes "Reportedly angered by the One Laptop Per Child project's demand that it curtail work on its Classmate PC and other cheap laptops, Intel has resigned from the project's board and canceled plans for an Intel-based OLPC laptop. Intel's withdrawal from the project comes less than six months after the chip-making giant earned kudos for agreeing to contribute funding and join the board of OLPC. It's the latest blow to the OLPC, whose CTO quit earlier this week to launch a for-profit company to commercialize her OLPC inventions."

Comments

FPFPFPFP

[xtracto]

Thats what happens when you leave the wonders of "capitalism" do their job. Everybody wants a piece of the $$$$$ and after they see that there is market for something they will try to milk the cow!!

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[Anonymous Coward]

there is no money in this market. they are "competing" with a nonprofit, and will pull out once OLPC is dead. this is a business strategy, and the losers are OLPC and a generation of children.

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[Smidge204]

What confuses me is that the OLPC association is ADAMANT about not offering their product commercially. This makes no sense. Given:

1) Minimum production runs are required to meet the desired price point
2) Meeting minimum production quantities had been difficult
3) There is demand in the private/consumer market for the product

It seems to only make sense to offer the units to the consumer market, which would solve the minimum production run issue AND help subsidize the cost of the units shipped to their intended market. Especially since, by definition, their intended market is the demographic that can't afford them in the first place.

Extending and promote the "get one give one" program, is one way to do this. Another way is to sell them for a slight profit ($300 each instead of $200?) to schools in industrialized countries for the same purpose. Being a non-profit company does not preclude actually making money.
=Smidge=

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[salimma]

Negroponte being a visionary does not mean he has business acumen, unfortunately. He's currently exploring G1G1 programs for other countries, but is refusing to continue it in the States (why that is, who knows)

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[Anonymous Coward]

the losers are OLPC and the winners are a generation of children. There, fixed that for you. Poor countries do not need their governments wasting money on laptops for children who need essential skills provided by more traditional means. The quadrivium, the trivium, and historical content - these things require paper, pencil, books, and a good teacher. And, no, a book is not harder to maintain than a laptop.

Mind you, neither should rich countries' schoolchildren be considering laptops until the sore deficiency in basic skills is fixed, but at least a purchase from their rich parents not going to take money away from food and shelter.

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[pla]

Everybody wants a piece of the $$$$$ and after they see that there is market for something they will try to milk the cow!!

I would normally agree with you... Except that a commercial low-end laptop offering by Intel wouldn't compete with the OLPC. Quite the opposite, in fact! OLPC had Intel pouring money and technology into a project that would effectively give away what Intel hoped to sell.

I consider myself pretty hardcore anti-corporate, and I find it pretty hard to call Intel the bastards on this one. They wanted to sell to a market that OLPC didn't want to touch (and apparently didn't want to let anyone else touch, either).

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[flapdoddle]

Actually, the problem with OLPC is that the project is not capitalist enough.

OLPC is making exactly the same elitist mistakes that torpedoed the NeXT computer - which you could only buy on campus, and only from colleges that would hire a support group to fix the oh-so cool magnesium cased turkey when it broke.

If they really wanted to make OLPC cheap and ubiquitous, it needs to be sold to whoever wants to buy it. Instead, for all practical purposes the only "customers", the ones who shell out the bucks for this, are socialist third world bureaucracies. By just selling it to whoever wants it, the economies of scale will make the $100/unit goal.

Of course, part of the deal of the consortium to precisely avoid selling to everyone so as to not compete with more expensive commercial offerings...

---
Sorry, I've run out of clever bylines. Maybe next week...

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[Anonymous Coward]

While many of the people who ordered themselves an XO seem to be happy with it, I think the first-world adult population at large doesn't want the XO, even if they think they do. Many people receive their XO expecting it to be like a small version of their current computer, but they are disappointed by the fact that it's slower, harder to type on, exposes a non-hierarchical file system, doesn't play YouTube videos smoothly, doesn't play many audio/video formats out-of-the-box, and has many features still being implemented -- in short, because their expectations are unreasonably high. (Kids, on the other hand, love it...)

What these people really want, I think, is a device in approximately the same form factor as the XO and with many of the same features, but slightly larger with slightly higher system specs, a more traditional operating system interface, and commercial support. Something that combines the strengths of the XO with the strengths of the Asus Eee.

What bothers me is that people are treating the departure of Mary Lou Jepsen as a bad thing, when a commercial venture like hers (which is licensing the technology from OLPC and thus feeding money back into it) is precisely the kind of organization that could produce such a device.

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[Anonymous Coward]

I consider myself pretty hardcore anti-corporate, and I find it pretty hard to call Intel the bastards on this one. They wanted to sell to a market that OLPC didn't want to touch (and apparently didn't want to let anyone else touch, either). I call Intel bastards on this one

Except that a commercial low-end laptop offering by Intel wouldn't compete with the OLPC ...and I call bullshit on this

A low-end laptop with Windows would compete with the OLPC - many see learning the current popular tool as more important than a real education. The classmate wouldn't work in as many places as the OLPC, but the OLPC isn't limited to the dirt floor hut schools, so the low-end that the classmate would pick up could impact OLPC.

Why is a non-compete among partners difficult to understand? It is a clear conflict of interests. Maybe Intel wouldn't directly try to sabotage OLPC, but a little foot dragging can go a long way. There is also the question of inside information.

I don't think anyone would argue (please prove me wrong - I'd love to see the argument) that Intel would not have created the classmate if the OLPC didn't exist - this was their competitive answer to the OLPC.

In creating the classmate, Intel is putting SHORT TERM profits before educating the world's poor (which would open up new markets). This is what I have come to expect from corporations, and as an anti-corporate person myself, I believe this is acting bastardly. Not letting go of the classmate is a continuation of the bastardness.

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[Nikker]

Look at their curriculum first off. Who is going to teach these young people what they want / need to know rather than what their government is willing to sponsor. Just to give you a point of reference this paper shows how most students have no curriculum to begin with and are out of school most of the year. There are too many teachers getting infected with AIDS and other diseases even if there is funding. In sub Saharan Africa 30% of teachers get AIDS, exposing children to the virus and of course leaving the children without a teacher to tell them anything.

If they had a way of looking up things that interested them whether it be educational or not it is a light year past what they are getting now. Even if we were to take the $150 per laptop and give them the cash you can note the first paper and look for World Bank restructure, there it tells you even when the countries have money they are instructed by the World Bank what they are allowed to spend on this is quoted "conditions set by the World Bank and IMF within the context of structural adjustment".

The best bet to help these kids is to give them SOMETHING. There are even hits on Google that show the UK is hiring up most of the teachers from 3rd world countries that are any good. These kids have nothing, at least this will give them a chance to augment their lives with some social knowledge and maybe a static copy of Wikipedia. That might give them somewhere to start, something solid, something.

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[Colin Smith]

The best bet to help these kids is to give them SOMETHING. ANYTHING! Doesn't matter if it works or not as long as you feel better about yourself.

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[Nikker]

It's nice that you submitted a suggestion, your contribution is great! So do you feel better about yourself now?

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[mea37]

If you want to debate capitalism vs. whatever system you'd like to replace it with (I notice you didn't offer an alternative), then we probably need to look at the broader effects of each system rather than one case where you don't like what happened.

But anyhow, you're saying that in your view Intel is the bad guy?

I'd say the OLPC is to blame for failing to keep Intel's support. They claim to take steps to not compete commercially against their own backers, yet here they try to control a product segment by fiat -- which has the same net effect as competition from Intel's point of view. "I won't compete with you, as long as you don't offer the products we'd compete on?" Please. Why shouldn't Intel withdraw from that kind of relationship?

If OLPC is really a beneficial project, then Intel's entry into the low-cost laptop market should be no threat to OLPC.

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[rahlquist]

Actually the only reason intel is likely pulling out of this is the lawsuit regarding the keyboard on the laptop they are running before they have to pay up....

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[crush]

I agree. Intel are just seeking to benefit from the original research and development which was initiated as a result of Negroponte's non-profit. This desire of large corporations to leech of the innovation undertaken largely by academia is a developing trend and what makes this instance more disgusting is that the people hit hardest by this are the kids in the developing world that Intel is now refusing to help. A secondary point in this discussion is that people seem to forget that there are and have been shortages of e.g. Flash memory and other commodities and Intel is effectively now committing itself to driving up the price of those parts by repackaging (probably with Mary Lou Jepsen's help) the innovations of the OLPC so that rich geeks can have yet even more toys. There is no way that Intel comes out of this without looking like complete cunts.

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[tgd]

Wait, how exactly are these teachers exposing their students to HIV?

I may be in the minority, and of course I grew up in the US, but I didn't have unprotected sex (or any sex), shoot up with needles or have ritualistic blood letting ceremonies with my teachers in school.

Somehow I doubt things are THAT different in Africa.

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[Lord Apathy]

Doubtful. That lawsuit is bullshit. It brought by a con artist in a country of con artists. Any ruling on it would best be ignored.

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[Lord Apathy]

No he has a damn good point that most fuckers are not willing to listen too. This is a feel good project that does nothing. The money spent on this BS could be put to much better use than buying a craptop that has no support and is for all practially useless. That 150 bucks for this shittop could pay for a clean water supply for an area. Seeds and fertilizer for a village to feed it for 2 years.

For what you pay for one of these ... toys ... could be put to much better uses.

Yeah, in my prevous posts I'm against almost all aid to africa but that doesn't change the fact that this money if its going to africa could be put to much better uses.

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[pla]

and I call bullshit on this

Okay, explain how "sell to poorer 1st-worlders for $200" competes with "free for 3rd-worlders"? You mention that "the OLPC isn't limited to the dirt floor hut schools", but that doesn't really address the issue. So what? Yes, a poor rural US school could use an XO, but you ignore the fact that if they can afford to buy a Classmate, then OLPC shouldn't give them anything.


Why is a non-compete among partners difficult to understand?

Apparently we disagree on whether or not this counts as competition, and we don't have teams of marketroids and lawyers telling us one way or the other.


A low-end laptop with Windows would compete with the OLPC

Ah! Now we see your real objection here... Nothing to do with Intel or OLPC - You just don't want Microsoft involved, even if they give away the Windows licenses.

Zealotry doesn't help our cause (and I say "our" because I mostly agree with you, right up until you lose sight of the goal out of prejudice against MS) - Just use the right tools for the job.

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[sumdumass]

.and I call bullshit on this

A low-end laptop with Windows would compete with the OLPC - many see learning the current popular tool as more important than a real education. The classmate wouldn't work in as many places as the OLPC, but the OLPC isn't limited to the dirt floor hut schools, so the low-end that the classmate would pick up could impact OLPC.

What is the goal of the project? To get computing technology and educational opertunities to poor third world countries in an attempt to bring them out of the third world and give them hope for the future? or to Drive Windows from the market place? IT would seem to me that if both achieved the same goals, the it would be a win. That is if the goal is the former and not the later. But then I would have to question the motivations and representations of the later.

I don't think anyone would argue (please prove me wrong - I'd love to see the argument) that Intel would not have created the classmate if the OLPC didn't exist - this was their competitive answer to the OLPC.

Your right, there is no argument here. But this is typically the outcome of third party or minority politics. You create an awareness that causes another more influential party to take notice and adopt part if not all of your strategy and concerns and carry the torch for you. This might not be fame and fortune but if your goal wasn't fame and fortune, you haven't lost out on much.

In creating the classmate, Intel is putting SHORT TERM profits before educating the world's poor (which would open up new markets). This is what I have come to expect from corporations, and as an anti-corporate person myself, I believe this is acting bastardly. Not letting go of the classmate is a continuation of the bastardness.

I don't think the Classmate is even close to competing with the OLPC offerings. It is more of a "We can do it" product then anything. It shows that they are able to produce low power units too which is good for sales and profit. They don't even have to market the classmate to get the benefit of having one. But even if they did market the Classmate, it is an order of expense above the OLPC. It would be aimed at a different demographic, one that OLPC has already claimed it will ignore. So I guess the bastardness of the situation if we would have to have one is the idea that only poor children on countries the OLPC deems worthy is able to get the cheap and rugged laptops. I would love to have one or two of these just to have something I could take on a job site with me without worrying about breaking a $2000 laptop or getting it stolen from the car. The Classmate or the OLPC would actually be great for me because it equated the price to that of a modern cell phone, is powerful enough to do everything I need for work (documentation, billing recording, port scanning, SSH access and so on).

I think your conflating personal feeling with actualities and are getting confused in the process. But that is something that is expected when you look at things through emotions.

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[Belial6]

I don't see why these moves against OLPC is a surprise to anyone. Just look at the design of the it. It was clearly designed as a way for various companies to trick other people into pay for their R&D by setting up a questionable charity. I still think the original $100 price tag is expensive for what they are claiming to try to accomplish. The $200 price tag is down right retail. Expect to see more stories about people and companies pulling out so that they can use the R&D that was paid for with donations in their regular business.

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[sf_kahuna]

I can't let this go unasked - how/why do you believe that teachers expose their children to aids? Surely you aren't saying that teachers are having unprotected sexual encounters with their children? Or have I, like "Life on Mars", gone back to another time?

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[pclminion]

The losers are the idiots who thought a system like this could actually WORK in the United States. And I hardly see "the children" losing anything. How about we start getting them some clean food, water, and clothing, and I don't know, maybe SCHOOLS, before we start throwing laptops at them?

OLPC is the height of Western arrogance. Just spend a certain amount of money and build a technological device and all the problems of the third world will just dissolve.

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[Belial6]

"Yes, a poor rural US school could use an XO, but you ignore the fact that if they can afford to buy a Classmate, then OLPC shouldn't give them anything."

This seems to be a point that many are confused about. Probably because they keep hearing about kids being 'given free laptops'. The OLPC is not giving laptops to anyone. They are selling laptops. This is because they are selling them to the government, and having the government give away the laptops. By doing this, they get the press of giving laptops away, when in fact they are selling them. So, if the poor rural US or 3rd world school can afford an XO, they likely can afford a Classmate.

"Just use the right tools for the job."

This gets said a lot, and PERHAPS Windows is the right tool for the job, but that is highly debatable. Just because nails will successfully hold a door closed, it doesn't mean that you want to use them instead of a standard door lock. My point is that using a tool that solves the problem today, but creates a lot more work and problems down the line, is not the right tool for the job. That being said, I definitely have not been sold on the Sugar interface that is being used on the OLPC. It seems to be different, just for the sake of being different.

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[LWATCDR]

I was wondering about that myself.
I had thought that we had gotten past you can catch AID from casual contact stage?

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[Anonymous Coward]

Except that a commercial low-end laptop offering by Intel wouldn't compete with the OLPC.

Untrue. In fact, Classmate PC lost a contract (sorry I cannot name details) because Eee PC got it. Isn’t it interesting? Anybody talking about Intel dumping the Classmate PC is really an idiot.

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[vmcto]

Don't you think there just might be an opportunity to take a scarce commodity (teachers as you point out) and through the use of technology and a non-scarce commodity (OLPC laptops) allow a few good teachers to be amplified and broadcast to a wider group?

I mean you pretty much made the case for the OLPC laptops in your post...

Lesson-plans and resource publication and access and even interaction through email are possible even through a "hub and spoke" WAN implementation with meet-up places for the kids where they have network access.

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[The Great Pretender]

I've been wondering lately about the distribution criteria for the OLPC project and you bring up an interesting point to question. If there is no existing curriculum for these kids do they have the basic education that will allow them to read what they look up, or spell it for that matter to do a search? If they can read or write is there enough content on the internet in their native language or do they now need to learn a second language like English, French, German etc. With no teachers, how do they do they learn this second language? Perhaps the argument is that teachers in their native countries can set up this local network and teach the kids. I've heard nothing about the effort required to establish this type of infrastructure, and how are the kids going to be held accountable for attending leasons remotely? As a father I find it hard to believe that kids from a developing country aren't much different to mine when it comes to attention span, especially when the novelty of the little green box wears thin.

Call me an idealist or a cynic, but personally I believe that this $150 per laptop would be best spent on help develop some educational infrastructure. While, we may see $150 as nothing, it's quite a lot in these countries and as many OLPC kits that are intended to be developed add up to a hefty chunk of change. Then start moving forward on the "teaching to fish" approach.

IMHO, the responsibility of the more developed nations is not to force our lifestyle on the developing nations by building a personal interest system (in fact they're screwed if we do), but in helping nurture their societal development in absence of their own government. I look at it more as a need to be the kind uncle/aunt who helps out when the parents can't cope. Allow the parents to get back on their feet and then reunite the family.

Now you've got me all socialist and giving I need to stop and get back to my capitalistic job

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[hedwards]

RTFA, the article made no mention of intel trying to drive OLPC out of business, but instead what could very well be sour grapes by Negroponte because his project was being beaten on price by someone else. As long as intel isn't dumping the laptops at a loss, this is good news for people who are of limited means. It means that the power of capitalism is lowering the cost of the lowend laptops. Keep in mind that even in the US, there's a segment of the population that has a difficult time coming up with the money for a decent no frills computer to use, squelching the competition which could change that is just an immature act by an individual with alterior motives.

In the long run, the competition works far better than creating a new monopoly, which is then trusted to spur innovation and lower prices, just because of good will. Intel was well within its rights to leave, when the OLPC project demanded more than just an exit from the classmate project, but also for them to stop working with other manufacturers that are working to develop low cost laptops.

I know that it's popular here to laud OLPCs, but seriously, they were a huge mistake from inception, and now that they are trying to actively eliminate the competition which would allow for a sustainable low cost laptop which might be affordable on its own, well that's just immature and vindictive.

The argument that manufacturers would abandon the market after losing a large amount of money putting the OLPC out of business runs counter to any reasonable business strategy. More likely what would happen is that consumers would get used to having low cost, lightweight laptops that don't suck, and start refusing to pay more than three or four hundred for one.

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[colonslash]

A low-end laptop with Windows would compete with the OLPC

Ah! Now we see your real objection here... Nothing to do with Intel or OLPC - You just don't want Microsoft involved, even if they give away the Windows licenses... Just use the right tools for the job.

My point was that people wouldn't bother to evaluate a new tool when there is an old, popular standby, so they wouldn't necessarily be using the best tool, just the more generally accepted one.

That being said, the OLPC was designed from scratch to be an education tool. This is the specific purpose of the OLPC. If the classmate were using Linux distribution X, then I would still argue that the OLPC should be given consideration in an education setting.

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[sentientbrendan]

I don't see how you can say that corporations are leeching off of OLPC, when it was the companies like Intel that were *paying* for it in the first place. Furthermore it was engineers from large companies that were doing the work. What made OLPC happen was an *industry alliance*.

Furthermore, I don't see how Intel developing low priced laptops hurts the developing world, when these low priced laptops will likely to be *sold* in the developing world.

In any case, a non profit is not a long term solution to the problem. Having a company back cheap laptops in third world is the best possible result. Making the third world entirely dependent on something as ephemeral as generosity is a good recipe for screwing them in the long run.

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[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, in my prevous posts I'm against almost all aid to africa but that doesn't change the fact that this money if its going to africa could be put to much better uses. Okay, but what money is going to Africa here? The governments themselves are paying for their own laptops, the laptops aren't being given out on aid.

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[puto]

Different world view, cannot blame you for it, just you were fortunate to grow up in the US.

I grew up in the US, but have a Colombian father and was privileged enough to live there as an adult for 5 years, so see how the other side lives.

Priveleged in the sense I got to live and work for pesos, no credit cards, cold showers in the Andes, etc. It changed my life.

Sex between adults and teens is very common and excepted in other countries. I know in Colombia when I was a 30 year old college professor, i could have dated 16 year old girls without too much trouble, parents would encourage it. They saw stability in an older, employed person, rather than a young rake, so to speak.

If you ever read missionary works about Africa, particularly Paul Theroux, you will realize most missionary and peace corp people do get it on with the local people.

And I am not only talking about the visiting teachers, but the native ones as well. It is a cultural thing, and they are are very different culturally than we are.

I would reccomend to anyone that things that thinks are "not THAT different" in Africa(or other countries) to truly vistit them for more than a vacation.

Africa is poverty stricken and a wild and wooly country. If the teacher is the guy with a few coins in his pocket to pay you for sex, to in turn feed your family, then you fuck the teacher.

Culturally, it could be an honor to bang the wise man.

And of course since AIDS is rampany in Africa, I think the numbers are valid.

And if you count no shoes, living in huts, abject poverty, and disease as not different than what we have here, you need to take a leave of abscence and see the rest of the world, not Amsterdam.

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[crush]

MIT and its associated personnel are heavily subsidized (as they should be) by our taxes. Our taxes which go to supporting the creation and sharing of knowledge for the common good. The problem is that corporations like Intel get to cherry pick the succesful research and sell it back to us at inflated prices without contributing a fair amount of money towards the support of those educational and research insitutions: we pay for THEIR R&D. In the case of the OLPC project Intel's position is an even clearer and more exaggerated version of the above problem.

Furthermore, I don't see how Intel developing low priced laptops hurts the developing world

Do you think we live in a post-scarcity economy where NAND Flash grows on trees? Do you understand that demand creates a shortage which raises prices. Are you aware that there are such production shortfalls in these components that increased usage in the wealthy nations will exacerbate the shortage. Fucking the developing nations NOW by an opportunistic attempt to exploit technologies developed explicitly to assist those nations is just greed pure and simple. Intel are cunts and you are a particularly stupid cunt.

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[xtracto]

If you want to debate capitalism vs. whatever system you'd like to replace it with (I notice you didn't offer an alternative), then we probably need to look at the broader effects of each system rather than one case where you don't like what happened.

Hehehe, I never said capitalism was bad or had to be replaced, I just stated that such was the effect of capitalism.

But anyhow, you're saying that in your view Intel is the bad guy?

Not in this issue at least. As a lot of people have said, the people at the OLPC project do not want to commercialize the product in first world country. I am sorry but the product (the small computer with all the nice bells and whistles) does NOT cost $400 and although there are some good souls who would pay 2x the price to help a poor child, captialism just does not work like that.


If OLPC is really a beneficial project, then Intel's entry into the low-cost laptop market should be no threat to OLPC.

Of course not! they are two completely different "markets" (if you want to call the poor Africans or Americans [from the south of the American Continent that is]) a market... which suerly do not pay a lot.

They could have sold them for a small profit margin and use those profits to help the poor kids but they decided not to do it. That is where Intel comes into play. They might just want to profit in the market as the Eee has been doing since it was released.

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[Locutus]

good points but please do remember that it is not like there's an airplane delivering these by dropping a large wooden box with a parachute out of the cargo bay. The country's government is involved with the purchase and distribution. Who's to say they will not give any kind of funding to some aspect of training and oversight? And even if they are just preloaded with a few dozen books and dropped by parachute, wouldn't that be better than those without them at all?

To use stepping stones, one must first have the stones to step on. I'm hopeful something very good will come of this project and don't see the harm considering how much governments neglect those who'll be targeted with this program regardless.

I surely don't see a valid reason to say it is a waste of money and should not be attempted. Why not let it play out and live or die one its own merits?

LoB

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[Locutus]

I'm sure glad there is someone here with the clairvoyance to see that all money and donations around the world should be spent on food and water. For a second there, I was thinking that the whole world was made up of many differing socio-economic situations. I forgot that the worlds people are either well off or starving. Thanks for clearing that up.

LoB

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[The Great Pretender]

Good points back at you. I see so much press over the OLPC and everyone loves to talk just about the hardware, so much so that the entire program infrastructure gets buried. Even if you look to the website, there's a bunch of mission statements, pictures of people who support it, but very little 'guts' as to the details of implementation. Now being in a business leadership position myself I understand the need for a strategy statement to get everyone marching in the same direction, but the equipment is being reported as being distributed and I'm still at a loss for exactly how they're implementing the program, the metrics they'll use to define success of the program and what do they expect to be the hurdles, with an idea of how they'll be circumnavigated or overcome. The way that I read the 'news-bites' it seems to be leading me to believe that they are, metaphorically, dropping them in crates out of a cargo plane.

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[AmaranthineNight]

I'm getting really tired of reading this shit, and I'd just like to mention that this isn't really targetted at the "third world" where people are living in huts and trying to scrape out enough water to survive, but in developing nations, like many in South America, where the basic infrastructure is there, but the cost of technology and books are too expensive for students to get a decent education. You build a cheap laptop that the governments can distribute to children, and distribute the curriculum materials to them through it, and you've got yourself a good tool for education that will put these nations on the fast-track to catching up with the rest of the first-world. Add in a low power consumption, so that the laptop can work on battery power while the student is waiting to go back to school, and doesn't need to be plugged in to charge, and you have a way for the students to continue learning outside of the classroom without putting their parents in the poor-house by using exhorbitant amounts of electricity that they may or may not have.

Michael.

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[Anonymous Coward]

take a scarce commodity (teachers as you point out) and through the use of technology and a non-scarce commodity (OLPC laptops) allow a few good teachers to be amplified and broadcast to a wider group? One "broadcasts" quite well using low-maintenance low-cost paper. But a teacher is there to guide, to place into context, to answer questions, to take interest in student development, and (indirectly) to protect. A laptop - especially one which is non-networked - cannot provide these features.

For any progress, we must start with the assumption that the machine can be kept Internet-connected and well maintained - i.e. that Africa is full of districts well-equipped enough to have an IT expert but no-one who can teach basic skills. Step two is for project adherents to quote successful examples of e-classrooms for kids, even in the first world.

through a "hub and spoke" WAN implementation I swear, even as someone fortunate to live in the well-connected UK, if someone started informing my mind that I should implement "lesson plans, resource publication and even interaction... through a hub and spoke WAN implementation" I'd tell them to GTFO and let me get on with my job.

Anyway, except for the e-mail, this is far from "one laptop per child", more "one laptop per school district" receiving data from some central authority to print out and carry to local schools. Considering publications, same as above applies - it'd be a strange area that's impossible to deliver books to but easy to maintain net access to. And books can be used and re-used - I went to an expensive private school but we still ended up using 20+ year old books for basic mathematics, science, etc., returned by previous students at the end of each year. Please look at me and tell me an OLPC is going to last 20 years.

As for instant telecommunication, yeah, cybercafes would be cool in Africa. But then, so would ham radios. And I'll let you figure out which requires more expenditure, maintenance and infrastructure; the answer is found in first world disaster areas too.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Anonymous Coward]

Africa's not a country, dude.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[vmcto]

I want to see the patent on this "wireless paper" you have developed that is able to travel hundreds or thousands of kilometers with little effort.

And be updated from a central point without having to send out more paper and keep track of the pieces of paper.

Next, you're going to day I've been mailing letters with the US postal service for all these years, while there been a more efficient method...

FPFPFPFP indeed.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Lord Apathy]

Wrong! It does't need to be spent on food and water. It needs to be spent on seeds and clean water supplies. Sending food only compounds the problem. The people need to be taught how to feed themselves, not there is a hand out for every problem. And that is what this is. A fat ass hand out.

You must give these people a laptop hand out, teach them how to build thier own laptops. Teach them that after you teach them not to shit in their own water supply. That AIDS isn't spread by evil spirits and raping a little girl doesn't get rid of that evil spirit. Teach them to relay on themselves instead of everyone else.

There are people in africa, ones with brains, that are saying just that.

Of course also for just walling up the whole god damn place and letting them ether work thier own problems out. That or letting them starve and kill each other. But, fuck, what do I know?

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Evanisincontrol]

The AIDS virus originally came from primates. Do you think it was transmitted to humans through sexual intercourse? AIDS can be transmitted in ways other than sex.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[pclminion]

Developing world, third world, who cares. Why should we subsidize the incompetence of governments? Giving food, water, and medicine is humanitarian. Giving laptops is moronic.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[umbra_dweller]

Care to share? AIDS can be passed through non-sexual means, but it's all about blood sharing. The only theories of primate-human transmission I have heard are people eating bushmeat or someone being bitten by a primate. I seriously doubt the kids eating teachers or teachers biting students are common enough evens to cause alarm.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to see the patent on this "wireless paper" you have developed that is able to travel hundreds or thousands of kilometers with little effort. Stop building straw men. It might be easier for you, rich westerner, to conceive transmission of data by a complex network of wires and RF. In fact, for hundreds of years before this, information travelled "hundreds or thousands of kilometres" by ship or cart, then adding train or truck. The bandwidth of a truck is perfectly adequate, and Africa is full of 'em. Africa does not have a ubiquitous power, networking or IT maintenance infrastructure.

And be updated from a central point without having to send out more paper and keep track of the pieces of paper. *facepalm* High school mathematics, science, language, music, etc. do not change sufficiently often for this to be relevant for resource distribution. If you mean low bandwidth updates - timetabling, notices, etc., consider receiving broadcasts with a Baylis radio. It's not going to kill anyone to have to dictate for half an hour every week.

As to "keep track of the pieces of paper".. the '60s called, they want their vision of a highly efficient paperless office back.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Poltras]

Glad to see some 4-digits common sense around. Thanks. I'm totally with both of you there.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Locutus]

do you even have a clue that there are people who actually have a food supply and clean water already but have a poor education system currently in place? Not everyone is shitting in their own water supply. And of some how, one of those get a OLPC device, they probably float so they can just open it up, shit on it, and keep the shit out of the water as you seem is so important to every man, woman, and child in the world. :-/

As far as THOSE people you seem to be fixated on goes, yes, getting them the skills to exist with atleast the basic human needs/essentials is better than hand outs.

LoB

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Locutus]

I've not seen the complete implementation plan/life cycle for the project but IIRC, they were planning on handing out the laptops to the kids and teachers along with some basic instructions and let they learn the devices and figure out how to integrate them into the curriculum. But, one of the latest deliveries seemed to suggest that there is a support crew going with the initial shipments and that there was some special teacher training occurring.

I too would love to see a complete front to back plan for the project but it could very well be that like many OSS project, things grow from experience and everyone learns and grows from what others are doing. I don't know for sure how it's planned out but some of the people behind the project are not out of touch with reality and have the intelligence to make choices when improvements are needed.

It does appear they are smart enough to not be parachuting this into middle of the Sho in the Kalahari desert along with a bottle of Coca Cola. But hey, they might actually be ready for it by now. ;-)

LoB

Re:FPFPFPFP

[mrchaotica]

No, giving food, water, and medicine is moronic. Why? Because it doesn't fucking work! We've been giving them that kind of shit for decades now; if it was doing any good they wouldn't still be impoverished hellholes. Yet they are still impoverished hellholes, so obviously the current type of "aid" isn't working. Q-E-fucking-D, bitch!

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Lord Apathy]

More importantly why don't you ask me if I give a damn? I don't. Personally I think we should just wall up the whole damn place and let them kill each other. There maybe a few of them that are like that but for the most part everything south of the Sahara is a lost cause. The only thing that people seem to value is the gold and the diamonds there. Since I don't hold ether of those of any special value I see nothing in africa worth saving.

Then there is the animals, which I feel really bad for. Yes, for the most part I value the animal life in africa more than I do the people.

How is this for a plan? We wall the whole fucking place up for a 100 years. Nothing comes in or out. Then we let nature take its course. In a hundred years when they have killed each other, starved, or died off because of aids or some other preventable illness, we reintroduce the animals. Then we declare the whole god damn continent an animal preserve.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Metasquares]

There really is no problem with Intel selling a competing product. No one is forcing the kids to buy a Classmate. If they can compete with a free OLPC and still sell their laptops, those laptops are probably superior in some way.

Expecting Intel to simply withdraw their laptops to avoid competing with OLPC is like something out of "Atlas Shrugged" (and I'm not even an objectivist). If OLPC is really as good as it's cracked up to be, they have no reason to block competition. Moreover, Intel was helping them. If they want to make demands of Intel that Intel isn't ready to meet in exchange for these benefits, Intel can simply pack up and leave and has every moral right to do so.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[rtb61]

Yes there is a market, first and second world children who as yet do not have a school notebook on their desk, by far the majority, a market of hundreds of millions. So, yes, greed is the answer.

They simply do not care about the limitations of the third world market, nor are the interested in any restrictions that the third world would put on supplying units for the first and second world.

Combined with typical first and second world lobbying and politicking and they will be able to sell the units to every school child at grossly inflated profit margins, and be able to sell them again and again (they will definitely not be as stable or as durable) plus a full range of proprietary extras. Greed upon greed all for the sake of even more greed.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Anonymous Coward]

If you ever read missionary works about Africa, particularly Paul Theroux, you will realize most missionary and peace corp people do get it on with the local people.

Reading Paul Theroux's biography, I see nothing about his being a missionary, though he was thrown out of the Peace Corps: http://www.paultheroux.com/biography/index.php .

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Nikker]

This article that was anchored above in my post explains how 1 teacher dies every day of AIDS. It doesn't have to be sex that gets someone infected. With rates as high as that, the chances would be an elevated chance of transmission also cuts don't heal well and depending on the social norm people may continue to interact with the children even if they are not feeling "well".

Re:FPFPFPFP

[Anonymous Coward]

The laptop delivery may follow the same path as the delivery of 'humanitarian help' during perestroika in Russia. The first-world nations collected an enormous amount of packaged food, meds and clothing. Russia's Ministry of Education and Ministry of Health Care were tasked with distribution. One of the key conditions was that none of those items were supposed to be sold, only given out, to that purpose all packaging was clearly labeled as such.

The end result was that some of it was delivered to the proper recipients, maybe even as much as 60-70%, but the rest was distributed for profit by various unscrupulous local/mid-level bureaucrats in cahoots with retail shops. Eligible as a student, I did receive a box of foodstuffs from student affairs office, and at the same time products labeled 'humanitarian help' were openly sold in private stores.

However, the Western monitoring body deemed it a success, largely because the top Russian bureaucrats were able to produce convincing stat reports distribution procedures and results. As long as the OLPC is presented with a satisfying totals sheet that doesn't scream fraud, they will also pat themselves on the back, even though the situation on the ground may be completely different. Such is the world of government bureaucracy.

Re:FPFPFPFP

[reiisi]

At least, read the descriptions of the books.

My father told me why he didn't want me joining the peace corps. (He worked in direct association with peace corps workers for a couple of years.) From what he said, I'd say there were, at any rate, far too many peace corps workers who couldn't control their libidos.

That name is awesome

[ExE122]

Bender agreed, noting that the OLPC hasn't locked itself into any one partner's technology. "We're looking as broadly as possible, these solutions don't exist just within one company or one architecture," he said.

He then concluded the interview by downing a beer, lighting a cigar, and exclaiming, "Bite my shiny metal ass!"

Re:That name is awesome

[skulgnome]

I am Bender. Please insert girder. (also, your signature has a typo in it.)

Re:That name is awesome

[wezeldog]

I am Bender. Please insert liquor.

Re:That name is awesome

[LagosPortugal.info]

Such a shame I had great hopes for all the possible opensource software that might emerge from the 3rd world countrys.

Re:That name is awesome

[elrous0]

Yeah, well screw you OLPC! I'm gonna go build my own laptop, with Blackjack and hookers!

Re:That name is awesome

['nother poster]

On second thought forget the blackjack...

Re:That name is awesome

[Lord Apathy]

Why don't you just skip the blackjack?

For profit corporation

[Arthur B.]

So now the CTO will be selling his inventions to people who decide to buy them with their own money, instead of selling them to captive taxpayers in poor countries. I call this a moral improvement.

(burn karma, burn)

Re:For profit corporation

[Anonymous Coward]

Trusting the article summary? Oh, for shame.

1. The CTO is a she.
2. Her commercial enterprise is licensing her technology back from the OLPC.

So when you buy her fancy new device using this display technology, the patent licensing fees are helping education programs elsewhere. I don't know if you'd consider this a moral improvement or not, but it sounds like a good deal for the OLPC.

Re:For profit corporation

[timeOday]

Your argument only holds weight in dictatorships where taxpayers are "captive."

I'm curious about the legal arrangement that allows her to resign from the OLPC project with ownership if these technologies? Was it a volunteer position or something? Using a nonprofit as an unwitting venture capitalist to do R&D on for-profit technologies is uncool, and I have to wonder if it's even legal. (What's to stop all corporations from spawning nonprofit subsidiaries to do their R&D?)

Re:For profit corporation

[tompaulco]

Happens all the time in academia. Nonprofit dollars go toward professors research, which they later turn around and start a business capitalizing on the results of said research.

Re:For profit corporation

[timeOday]

There are always policies governing such things so it's not a free-for-all. They normally include statements such as: "Patents developed by university personnel using university time, material or facilities are the property of the university subject to conditions specified by university policies."

True, in the past there have been many examples of companies spinning off from universities and leaving them with nothing. My sense is that universities are getting wise to this - or just more greedy, depending on which side you take.

Re:For profit corporation

[joe_totale]

*her* inventions...

Re:For profit corporation

[cafucu]

So now the CTO will be selling his inventions to people who decide to buy them with their own money, instead of selling them to captive taxpayers in poor countries. I call this a moral improvement.

(burn karma, burn) I think you mean her inventions.

In other news

[LiquidCoooled]

In other news the one child who was due to receive his laptop has mysteriously vanished leaving the project in even more deep trouble.

Sources say the one child was expected to be waiting outside the gates of his school at the end of the day but did not turn up.
Speculation around the town says it was because he got into trouble and was given detention.

Re:In other news

[Anonymous Coward]

I applaud you, sir!! You were brave enough to post that lame joke using your /. UID, rather than posting A/C.

Marketing data in place ...

[foobsr]

... now that everyone has his data stored away the project is obsolete anyway.

For an insightful view of the project from India I may refer to 'OLPC -- Rest in Peace', already written July 2006. 'Formula for Milking the Digital Divide' might also be interesting.

Disclaimer.

CC.

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[DuncanE]

Those numbers from India are really eye opening.

For the kind of dollars India has to spend to see a reasonable percentage of the OLPC they could do many different things. Assuming the OLPC really does cost the equivalent of 30% per capita income in India that means if they just buy 3 million of them thats the same as 1 million teachers salaries.

These numbers blow my mind.

Not to mention that India is now probably the largest growing IT country in the world.

The OLPC was meant to be "teach a man to fish and he will feed for a lifetime" , but instead it seems to be more "give a man a cheap JetSki and he will eventually learn to fish".

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I am getting a kick out of these comments as I play with my G1G1 Laptop at work!!!

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[timeOday]

Yeah, I mean, what are the chances a backwards nation like India could ever be sophisticated enough to use computers? What are they going to do, compete with programmers in Silicon Valley over the Internet? Ha! They'll never recoup a $100 investment that way!

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that Atanu Dey at www.deeshaa.org makes a lot of sense about the OLPC being a bit of a boondoggle.

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[Idarubicin]

Assuming the OLPC really does cost the equivalent of 30% per capita income in India that means if they just buy 3 million of them thats the same as 1 million teachers salaries.

Well, no--it doesn't mean that at all. Per capita income is the total income of the country divided by the total population. That population includes children, the elderly, the infirm, the stay-at-home parents, the unemployed. In the 2001 census, India recorded a population of 1029 million (a shade more than a billion). Of those, 402 million were employed at some point during the course of the year, while only 313 million were employed for at least six months of the year. I don't have data on the number of Indians who were employed full-time for the entire year. In other words, the OLPC cost is not more than about 10% of the average full-time salary, and may be appreciably less.

Then, of course, the assumption is made that a teacher's salary is going to be roughly equal to the average full-time salary. I have no idea if that assumption is valid. How does a teacher's salary compare to that of the average agricultural worker or ditch digger? How about to salary of a guy who sits in a cube in Delhi and answers tech support calls from the States or the fellow who rings up purchases in the local grocery store? Do teachers earn a premium salary for their level of education and responsibility as they do in the United States? It's entirely possible that the cost of an OLPC runs to only two or three percent of the average Indian teacher's salary. (In that case, the relative costs would be comparable to a starting U.S. teacher at $30,000 per year and a $1000 Dell laptop.)

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[JacksBrokenCode]

You're missing the point. It's not that $100m spent on OLPC won't eventually yield returns, but that $100m spent on teachers & better learning environments will yield better returns. The real problem isn't that kids in developing countries are getting great pen & paper education but lack digital tools, it's that they're not getting enough education period.

The above linked post addresses the problem that there are 100 million children needing education in India. India could spend $400 million and still only have enough laptops for 2 kids out of 100. Even if they share, the percentage of kids using these tools will be extremely low. That same amount of money could be spent on teachers, books, classrooms, sanitation needs, etc. and provide a boost for a much greater percentage of the student population.

So here's the quandary: Is it better to provide giant educational leaps & opportunities to a miniscule portion of the population, or to offer moderate educational benefits to as many children as possible? This is further complicated by the class structures in the countries. It's likely that the higher-status kids will wind up with the XOs at the expense of the lower-status kids. The Haves continue to have, and the Have-Nots continue to go without. Nothing changes despite how noble the project seems on the surface.

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[Locutus]

oh come on now, why not compare the price/cost to how many grains of rice can be purchased? Maybe the cost of a nice 10 page book? Or a nice coloring book?

One of the big problems with marketing is that people are mostly ignorant of any kind of vision of what could be. We are mostly only aware of what we have now and what is immediately around us and only what we are currently experienced with. Trying to sell an idea is one of the toughest jobs to have no matter how much of a history you might have of being correct.

I wonder how many read that and put together how silly the comparison was? That the life expectancy of the OLPC device was not one year as the comparison is with an annual salary. And is it common to compare school/learning material purchase price with teacher salaries? WTF is that if it is not ment to be FUD?

If they showed research which said something like the life of a book in these locations(a,b,c) were 5 years and the costs for such books were averaged to be X and Y number of books were purchased. Then compare that with the expected life of the OLPC device and cost. Even if it was just being used as a book reader without all the other features such as socialization, communication, drawing/music/etc, and just general computer experience. But they compared the initial cost of the OLPC device with how many teachers salaries that COULD buy in one year.

Sorry, didn't sell me on anything but poor reporting and more likely a means of spreading FUD regarding the device.

LoB

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[rtechie]

He's a little cynical. India's problems with providing basic services to all citizens are not due to a lack of money, but due to political and ethnic conflict within India. It's the same reason all Americans don't have access to free college education, even though we have the money. It's a bit much to ask for foreign NGOs to be sensitive to those conflicts when providing aid, let alone the expectation that they are supposed to somehow resolve those problems. The hysteria that formula producers are somehow responsible for mass starvation is hilarious. It is not the fault of formula manufacturers that they try to provide cheap formula to the developing world and then developing world governments fuck it all up.

If Mr. Dey wants foreign governments to resolve their internal political problems then he and his fellow Indians shouldn't have kicked out the British and remained a colony. Independence comes with responsibility.

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[Antique Geekmeister]

The money on laptops is leverage money: it reduces the costs of books, printing documents, planning, and communicating with the students and their families. And you had better believe those laptops will be *family* resources for information access for the whole family, with information those families could otherwise find incredibly difficult to obtain about local weather, crop prices, available markets, jobs, and even literature. And it does it in a modular way, one that does require infrastructure but far less than a new set of books.

Re:Marketing data in place ...

[JacksBrokenCode]

I know they'll be shared resources, but I still don't see the major benefit vs better general education. Kids can't read e-books while dad is checking the weather or market prices for his crop. Sadly, dad's information isn't going to be of much use to him. What good is it to know that your crop has a higher value in a village 3 miles away if he has no practical means of transport to that market? What good is it to know that a storm front is moving in if he has no practical ability to harvest his crop a day or 2 early and no physically-protected location to store that harvest? What good are better returns 1 week from now if his family needs to eat *today*?

For instance, let's say the village farmer can get $1/bushel more for his crop if he takes it to the neighboring village. He can't just run over there with 1 bushel because it's several kilometers and that would take a lot of time for very little return. So he has to build up a minimum amount that is worth transporting for the extra return. Now the situation gets more complex because the farmer doesn't have the proper facilities to harvest or store his crop to build an inventory. He has to leave more product growing in the field in the hopes that, at some point, he can capitalize on market differences. Unfortunately, he's sinking costs (seed, water, energy) into growing a larger crop while harvesting less product (not to mention the risk of a weather front destroying the crop and putting him in a situation from which he cannot recover because after his bigger up-front expenses he has no seed money for next year). Ideal long-term: that may pay off for him but it's not guaranteed. Realistic short-term: he's a very poor farmer and his family needs to eat. So he's forced to harvest the crop like he traditionally did and when the markets shift and he could make a little extra from the neighboring market finally arrives he no longer has a surplus to harvest/transport.

Same thing goes for weather reports. Our farmer sees a big stormfront moving in that may decimate his crop. Unfortunately he's a poor small farmer whose normal business model is to harvest and transport directly to market, so he has no facility in which to store his crop. What the hell is he supposed to do with this information? Now he knows a few days earlier that his crop will be ruined but he still has no means with which to avert this disaster.

Free-flow of information is only useful if there is a way to do something with that information. If transportation infrastructures were better, small villages could trade more product more easily. That inter-village trading will result in better information exchange which will in turn (eventually) reult in better returns on crops, livestock, etc. Once that starts to happen, then these villages would have use for OLPC and it could be world-altering because they'd have the information but also the means to capitalize on that information. Unfortunately, right now it's more just a circle jerk for academics, geeks, & hardware manufacturers.

My company does a lot of work with farmers in developing nations. We've seen time and again that simply giving them information doesn't help much because their situation and/or mindset is fundamentally flawed. When they need money *today* it's impossible to convince them that if they delay harvest for another 7 days their crop will be worth orders of magnitude more. We've even tried to assume the investment risk and pay them up-front for a future harvest but they take the money and inevitably we didn't get the product we paid for. Giving people information and expecting them to process it and react the way we do is simply naive. Cultures have to walk before they can run. Mindsets need to change which will only happen when infrastructures get better. Explaining the theory of exporting your crop to a neighboring village is pointless if it's difficult to transport. If the means to transport exists, the theory of exporting a crop will become reality without needing to be taught.

Really a blow?

[Potor]

Although it does represent a loss of funds and perhaps some technological support, it also weakens the Wintel aspect of the machine and stresses the philosophical and philanthropic goals of OLPC. And I assume that Negroponte can function perfectly well with AMD, who will now presumably have a lock on this market and the goodwill it generates.

Re:Really a blow?

[ByOhTek]

Win tel?

OLPC has always been a Linux offering I thought. There is no Windows about it it, and that's what MS has been whining about.

Re:Really a blow?

[ExE122]

I agree that they're not completely done for, but I think the real "blow" is the bad press and the loss of a very well known and important investor. Not only does this highlight yet another failure on OLPC's part, but a lot of the work that Intel has put in to the project will go away with Intel. It's more than just a loss of funds. The backlash for recovering all that work is going to come at cost as well.

And I assume that Negroponte can function perfectly well with AMD

I dunno, he didn't seem to handle Intel too diplomatically. What if AMD tries to enter the low-cost laptop market as well? Is he going to start making demands again?

Re:Really a blow?

[Pecisk]

I think saying that Intel has put some work into project would be overestemate, because they joined only last autumn. OLPC has been in development much much longer and I highly doubt that it will somehow impact technical stuff. It can impact financial side, but I hope some more honest player can roll in.

It's all about learning

[Marcion]

OLPC is not a laptop project, it is an educational project, the software and the content and more important than the hardware. Intel seemingly could not get over its short term desire to sell its own processors and kill AMD. Silly because if the OLPC takes off then there will be a bigger market for everyone's processors,

Re:It's all about learning

[faloi]

Intel's job is to sell their processor. If the software and content are truly more important and compelling than the hardware, the OLPC people shouldn't have a problem with Intel working on other similar projects at the same time. Intel is still selling to Apple and HP, and making their own boxes (albeit often rebranded). It sounds more like the OLPC folks believe their way is the only right way, and if you're not solely for them you must be against them.

Re:It's all about learning

[Anonymous Coward]

Which is what makes the whole exercise funny. All the American companies are viewing the whole thing from a capitalist POV, and are thus completely missing the mark. It's not about selling a product and making money. That's purely a means to an end. It's about putting technology in people's hands to let them learn from it.

Re:It's all about learning

[goldspider]

I still can't shake the feeling that this entire OLPC project is an enormous waste of money, intended more to assuage misplaced Western guilt than to bring about any fundamental change in impoverished areas.

Poverty isn't caused by a lack of computers, and I doubt cheap computers are going to solve the problem. There are far greater political factors perpetuating poverty that need to be addressed first. Until then, the tangible value of this kind of charity is dubious.

Re:It's all about learning

[poot_rootbeer]

OLPC is not a laptop project, it is an educational project

If Nicholas Negroponte and the rest of the OLPC team didn't want people to think of their project as a laptop project, perhaps naming it "One LAPTOP Per Child" was a poor choice.

the software and the content [are] more important than the hardware

I think it's too early to say which is more important. Sugar looks to me to be the most innovative and intuitive UI to be introduced in a long long time, but I can't tell whether it will ever find popularity outside of computer neophytes. It could be next Xerox PARC User Interface, or it could be the next Microsoft Bob.

The hardware innovations, on the other hand, have much greater immediate potential. The XO-1's approach to power management ought to be standard on all portable computers, and I think within 5 years it will be. And while the dual-mode screen may be little more than a novelty now at 6x4", if the production can be scaled up to 12x8", it could be revolutionary.

Ultimately, we'll have to wait and see to find out which is more important.

Re:It's all about learning

[CTho9305]

The problem is that Intel is "competing" by dumping their product below cost. I think the fear is that they will take over the market because of that, and when the OLPC project subsequently dies, drop out of that market because it's low margin... leaving kids with no options. It's not like they have a reputation for playing fair.

Re:It's all about learning

[Marcion]

>Poverty isn't caused by a lack of computers

But it is caused by lack of information and lack of education.

The OLPC comes loaded with electronic 50 books in the native language, it would cost $1000 to print that many books, even more to ship them to the kids. The OLPC also gives access to the web, which allows an amazing amount of information (and an amazing amount of crap too, but that doesn't stop the information).

Re:It's all about learning

[Lord Apathy]

Someone mod this fucker up because if any one just summed up OLPC he just did.

Re:It's all about learning

[Marcion]

The hardware innovations, on the other hand, have much greater immediate potential

To whom? You are thinking of the potential for the western laptop market. To the child in the developing world, the 50 preloaded books and the educational software are far more important.

Re:It's all about learning

[bberens]

Well, the GP was suggesting that the OLPC project isn't about computers, it's about education. While you could easily argue that poverty isn't caused by a lack of computers, you'd have more difficulty arguing that poverty isn't caused (at least in part) by a lack of education. Now you could argue there's better ways to educate than the OLPC, but that's different than what you're trying to suggest.

Re:It's all about learning

[goldspider]

And when the local warlord rounds up all these laptops to sell them for arms money, what good will all that valuable information do?

Education is indeed on the path out of poverty. Unfortunately in many areas targeted for the OLPC, other hurdles must be overcome before education (and realizing the potential of the OLPC) is possible.

Re:It's all about learning

[adah]

OLPC is not a laptop project, it is an educational project

If it really is, why should it be worried by Classmate PC, which provides another educational PC solution? Maybe it is for its future revenue, but Intel really cares about education, and has its own view about this area.—Intel even trains teachers, but sadly its view is different from OLPC’s.—OLPC’request, if it is true, proves that it is a laptop project.

Re:It's all about learning

[HiThere]

Intel didn't even show up until AFTER the product had been designed. At that point, adding Intel components would have required a redesign.

Looks like slime to me.

Re:It's all about learning

[afabbro]

So are you saying I shouldn't be donating expresso machines to homeless shelters?

Re:It's all about learning

[Plekto]

That's absolutely true. And, books can be bought and scanned/typed in/whatever and distributed 10 or 20 at a time.

My son goes to a school where they custom design his curriculum. They have four people on staff who make the monthly work for every student(2-3 inch thick binder every month). There are no textbooks - it's all based upon the student and their capacity to learn.

I've seen this sort of thing in practice and it works - as well as saves enormous amount of money. Just OLPC makes it electronic for places where they obviously don't have copiers. The new semester starts? Load in new books and curriculum and go.

As for the OLPC project itself, they can make various forms of UNIX run on PDAs currently(The Zaurus was a good recent example), so they'll find a way to get around Intel and AMD I'm sure. You don't need dual cores and the ability to play Halflife 2 on these things.

Re:It's all about learning

[Anonymous Coward]

>Poverty isn't caused by a lack of computers

But it is caused by lack of information and lack of education.

No, poverty has 2 major causes.

1) Not industrious (lazy)
2) Immorality

Eliminate these from a people and they can't help but have prosperity.

Understand that immorality especially includes their form of government. When anyone steals money from a productive individual who earns it, you're going to hurt your economy. When legal plunder (or regular plunder for that matter) run rampant, it's more difficult to prosper in the degree you are plundered.

And that is why the 3rd world remains the 3rd world. The best thing the "1st world" can do for them is be a good example. No "foreign aid" (too many strings attached) or other such trinkets. Presently, the 1st world is a terrible example.

OLPC is a tool, nothing more, nothing less. It does not contribute to the cause (unless done under the banner of "foreign aid") nor the solution. It can, however, be a tool to help those who are industrious and live in a region sufficiently free from plunder. IMHO, catering to governments is a mistake. You want to cater to parents, who are the real overseers of the education of children. Let them make the investment instead of just tossing the boxes over the wall in hopes of doing something good.

Re:It's all about learning

[solar video]

"comes loaded with electronic 50 books in the native language" I would ask...WHICH native language. The first proposal of this type occured at the December 2003 WSIS in Geneva by David Laughing Horse Robinson, a Kawaiisu Native American from California where there were several hundred languages before Spain made an appearance in the Americas. This language density still exists in the target areas OLPC and Intel are marketing to. The proposal by Laughing Horse addressed the "language" issue by recommending that Dragon Naturally Speaking, or some similar voice recognition software, be incorporated to accomodate not only the depth of dialects worldwide but also the prevalence of dyslexia and dysgraphia in Indigenous populations. His presentation in 2003 addressed the ECOSOC topic of expanding e-education into areas devoid of phone service, cable/satellite tv and internet: He proposed solar powered tablet PCs in a village setting, interfaced with a wifi enabled telekiosk for education delivery. In addition to Dragon Naturally Speaking, the PC's would include a digital ink pen paint program like Wacom Graphire and something like MathType to bridge the aforementioned learning disabilities as well as the other common one, color blindness. With the addition of similar software to support the education agenda, more governments will be inclined to invest and participate. Who will step in now to add to the hard work accomplished by Intel and OLPC?

Re:It's all about learning

[Marcion]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Enter.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newline

Re:It's all about learning

[moosesocks]

it would cost $1000 to print that many books

50 books can be used by 50 students at once. If you're really in a crunch, it's not totally unreasonable to ask 2 students to share 1 book, or put them all in a library on a "short-loan" basis.

Likewise, if you're doing a big print run, I feel that you should be able to produce a textbook for *FAR* less than $20 if you're willing to sacrifice color, print on recycled paper, etc. Reduce those costs even further if you want to do the printing on site, and provide some jobs in the process.

I've been a skeptic of the OLPC from the start, and from everything I've seen, the numbers just don't add up.

Re:It's all about learning

[Marcion]

50 laptops with 50 books on each can be used by 50 students at once. Then the teacher can dish out more.

I think pedagogically, one computer per child *is* the only ratio worth thinking about. I'm surprised more western schools don't do this.

> the numbers just don't add up.

One tomahawk missile = $750,000
Low-end Hawk Jet favoured by the military of developing countries - £23 million
Laptop for a child - $100 to $200

Re:It's all about learning

[moosesocks]

The breakdown of military vs. educational spending is irrelevant to this discussion.

If the governments of developing nations wanted to increase educational spending by $100 per child, they could probably also achieve fantastic results, especially considering how many teachers one could train and hire with that money.

1:1 Laptop initiatives *have* been tried in the US, and have generally been found to have little educational value. That's why you don't see it done that often over here. Nothing can come close to the power of having a good teacher physically in the same room.

(And although I'm generally a pacifist, many of these countries do have a very legitimate need to have a good military for defensive purposes.)

OLPC not a success

[Shivetya]

In November, after the promised high-volume sales to governments failed to materialize, the organization began a $399 "Give 1, Get 1" promotion, in which people could buy XO machines and subsidize gifts to educational programs. O.L.P.C. said it distributed about 50,000 computers in the United States during the promotion.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/04/technology/04laptop.html?ref=business

I don't see a problem with Intel moving on, they were trying to push their technology but weren't ready (too much power consumption with their proposal). I do see a problem with the OLPC process apparently not working out and little being done to expose this. If more people knew about it perhaps some would step up and buy the machines.

Maybe not a bad thing

[jav1231]

Hey I use Intel processors but their behavior has been largely disappointing. Joining OLPC no looks like an attempt to avoid bad press. Now that they're leaving one has to wonder if they just weren't getting their way. The whole mess with the Classmate just makes them look like...well...Microsoft.

It's a blow?

[Pecisk]

Honestly, it is much better for OLPC that Intel is open about their intends than just allowing them to party and doing nothing, while acting against OLPC.

Just my two cents,
Peter.

Re:It's a blow?

[autophile]

It's not that Intel was open with their intentions, and so kudos to Intel. OLPC didn't trust Intel. OLPC told Intel that they could join up IF AND ONLY IF Intel dropped their competing product, thus removing Intel's temptation to screw OLPC over. If Intel's intentions were truly evil, they had just been exposed. Intel refused to give up their own effort, thus signaling to OLPC that it would have gotten intentionally or unintentionally poor support. OLPC did the smart thing here, not Intel.

--Rob

No profit in poor people?

[boristdog]

I was sure there was tons of money to be made from the poorest of the poor!

Are you telling me this isn't true?

Re:No profit in poor people?

[Marcion]

It is true.

Do rich people drink coke and eat cheap hamburgers?

Re:No profit in poor people?

[Anonymous Coward]

Not outside of church...

Re:No profit in poor people?

[Billly Gates]

Many international marketers are focusing on third world countries. I would think logically that this would be a bad idea profit wise but many third world countries have a middle class or an upper class that would be similiar to our lower middle class. Coke and McDonalds have made quite a bit of money in these countries though the top third is the only part that can afford them now.

THe governments are the main customers and I think opening up internet to the world is the same as improving infastructure which is why they can't develop.

Re:No profit in poor people?

[boristdog]

As far as I know, yes.

It isn't all Cristal and Foie Gras here at the top.

markets, ideas and idealism

[xzvf]

While I don't think at any level that the XO project is a failure or doomed because of the recent news, it is allowing its idealism to overwhelm its idea. OLPC inadvertently created or tapped a market for small inexpensive laptops that had a lot of pent up demand in developed nations. Because their focus is on education, charity and the government of poor countries (the only people with money there), they didn't realize their product is valuable. This might be the time to step back from the visible hardware side and push the real innovation of the XO project. A lightweight, but extremely functional educational OS, and make sure that gets ported to as many platforms as possible.

Re:markets, ideas and idealism

[moosesocks]

OLPC inadvertently created or tapped a market for small inexpensive laptops that had a lot of pent up demand in developed nations.

Is there actually any evidence to back up this claim?

her inventions

[dominux]

yes, she will. She helped develop new innovations and bring the project from drawing board to production. Her job is done. Now someone else will manage the continuing development of the product as it moves from technology transfer to mass production.

Just Appalling

[filbranden]

Well, the article is Intel's version of the break. I think that if Negroponte really required Intel to drop the Classmate, it would have been too naive from him. It's almost as if he wanted to pick a fight with Intel and then tell the world that it's Intel's fault and that Intel doesn't want to play ball.

I think OLPC is a great idea, a great project and great technology, but this one didn't look that good for them (at least from the article, which is Intel's point of view, maybe the whole story is a little different, we'll know).

OLPC should try and use the best possible technology to produce the best laptop for the least possible cost. Considering that Intel has been doing lots of advances in cheap mobile power-saving chips, excluding Intel is not a good idea for the OLPC project. With the size of Intel, they are not losing that much by losing the OLPC project comparing to how much OLPC will be losing without Intel's support.

I agree that Intel was not being that clean with OLPC by having their competition project the Classmate, but even then, Negroponte should have been more diplomatic on this issue (again, the article is Intel's version, maybe it didn't happen just like that).

Re:Just Appalling

[coliva]

I find OLPC's behavior pretty abhorrent here. They are trying to act like a monopoly and dictate terms to kill competition instead of competing to provide the best computer for helping to educate children in the third world. So much for good intentions...

Re:Just Appalling

[elrous0]

Negroponte is an egotistical prick and this whole thing was just a way for him to celebrate himself. I've been saying this since I first saw that 60 Minutes interview, and every time I say it I get attacked with some "No, Negroponte just wants to help the kids. Intel are the real bad guys for daring to challenge this noble hero" crap. But I knew time would show him for what he really was.

Re:Just Appalling

[Lord Apathy]

Yeah, you'll get attacked. I get labeled a troll everytime I suggest that this money for this thing could put to better uses. Such as seeds and clean water supplies. Teaching the africans how to use modern farming equipment and basic sanitary behavior.

There are to many dumb asses mod points out there.

Re:Just Appalling

[elrous0]

Way too many people think that technology is the answer to everything. But technology can't change fundamental attitudes or make life any easier for people who lack even have the basic necessities of life.

What's Intel's value to OLPC?

[gvc]

Why is Intel's departure a blow? Why is a non-competition agreement such an unreasonable thing to expect of a partner? I daresay OLPC's take (which has not yet been stated in the media) is that Intel was helping themselves to inside information and offering little in return.

It would have been nice if Intel and OLPC could have come up with an arrangement to differentiate themselves in the developing world market, but it didn't work out. So they go it alone. The computers are quite different, the OLPC being designed from the ground up for its purpose, the Classmate and friends being crippled conventional laptops.

And whether or not Intel and friends manage to kill OLPC, they wouldn't have had a dog in the race at all if not for OLPC.

Re:What's Intel's value to OLPC?

[Penguinisto]

Let me sum it up this way:

'No fast-food cooks are allowed to volunteer for the soup kitchen, so either you quit your day job or get out.'

That's basically what OLPC is saying to Intel.

McDonalds isn't "competition" to the soup kitchen any more than the Asus Eee is competition to the XO Laptop. And yet Negroponte demands that Intel drop making chipsets for anything that may "compete" with the XO? Even if you just restricted it to the Classmate, Negroponte has repeatedly said that he would not, for instance, sell XO laptops to poorer school districts in the First World (where the more expensive-but-still-cheap Classmate would be damned useful), so where's the competition in that case?

IMHO, the whole thing is an asinine demand to make of any contributing company, and reeks of egotism on Negroponte's part.

/P

Re:What's Intel's value to OLPC?

[gvc]

McDonalds isn't "competition" to the soup kitchen any more than the Asus Eee is competition to the XO Laptop.

You'd be wrong. Intel-insides are actively bidding against OLPC in developing markets. Whether or not the bids are worthy, they are backed by the normal corporate dirty tricks -- including FUD and dumping to name two -- and aimed to kill.

Collectors items

[mrjb]

They are rapidly becoming collectors items. On Ebay they're already selling for over $400. For ONE unit, that is.
Great business model.

1. Buy two laptops for $200
2. Give one to charity
3. Sell the other one for $400
4. Profit!

Re:Collectors items

[DirtyHerring]

Two laptops from the G1G1 program cost 399,-$ + shipping (about 24,- $) ... 4. Loss

Re:Collectors items

[shirai]

Interesting, except that it's one laptop for $200 and two laptops for $400.

You can still profit but its more like:

1. Buy two laptops for $400
2. Give one to charity
3. Sell one for $400
4. Break even on cash
5. Get a $200 charity tax receipt

Your net up is a tax receipt which has value which varies depending on how much you pay in taxes.

Re:Collectors items

[AvitarX]

Interesting idea.

Especially because you get the $200.00 tax deduction not to far off from now.

I wish I had known.

Re:Collectors items

[SCHecklerX]

Remember the Apex DVD player that you could bypass macrovision and region codes with? That's exactly what I did. Managed to buy two, sold one for over 2x what I paid for it. Profit, plus I got to keep one :)

Re:Collectors items

[InvalidError]

If they eBay for $400, an even better business model would be:
1) Buy a bunch of $200 OLPC laptops
2) eBay them all for ~$400
3) more profits

OLPC should simply make its laptops available to the general public for $250-300 and use the extra profit margin to subsidize its give-away/discounted laptops in the target charity markets. This would reduce the number of machines bought/received on charity and resold on eBay for profit while also reducing profit margins on that scheme.

OLPC is doing a disservice to itself and its cause by being so inflexible in how it allows people to throw money at it... it is basically G1G1 or STFU.

Re:Collectors items

[Anonymous Coward]

Technically the profit you make on the sale needs to be declared as $200 of income too.

Re:Collectors items

[ericspinder]

Your net up is a tax receipt which has value which varies depending on how much you pay in taxes.

Good thinking over all, but it's your marginal tax rate not how much you pay. So if you are a middle or upper class working stiff who actually produces the goods and services which drive our economy (marginal tax rates of > 25%), you actually for once stand to make out 'better' than someone with an income driven by capital gains (flat tax of 15%). Of course, an accountant with a sharp pencil might tell you to claim the profit as income.

Re:Collectors items

[Anonymous Coward]

Your net up is a tax receipt which has value which varies depending on how much you pay in taxes.

Not quite. You forgot:

6. Pay tax on $200 capital gains on step 3.

There is a term for failure to report the capital gains (many eBayers don't report). That term is "tax evasion". The various national taxing authorities are starting to catch on, and crack down.

In other words, your scenario is a wash. To profit, the sale price in step 3 has to be more than $400. Your profit in that case would be the difference between the sale price and $400, minus the capital gains tax.

Subject, of course, to AMT.

In other words, reselling your OLPC is not only sleazy, it's not a particularly good way to make money.

Re:Collectors items

[Anonymous Coward]

If one is to be honest, one also needs to report the $200 profit from selling the laptop. In that case, there is probably no profit or may even end up paying more tax depending on where and how one pays tax.

Re:Collectors items

[Anonymous Coward]

You wouldn't steal from the taxman by not reporting your short term capital gains would you?

http://www.thesimpledollar.com/2007/07/19/personal-finance-101-capital-gains-tax/

$200 profit (@ current tax bracket) - $200 charity writeoff (@ current tax bracket) = $0

yes, Wintel

[Potor]

without intel, ms has less of a chance of sneaking onto the machine. and that's why i said weaken(ed), not removed.

Re:yes, Wintel

[ByOhTek]

It could sneak on just as easy with an x86 based AMD.

it'd have to move completely off the x86 platform to really reduce the possibility of Windows use (and even then, I think CE works on some non-x86 setups).

Anyway, who cares, if someone wants to pay extra and put windows on it, it's their business. It's not my job (or yours, or anyones) to dictate what OS can be used on someones computer.

Re:yes, Wintel

[Potor]

It could sneak on just as easy with an x86 based AMD.

OLPC has an x86 based spec, so sure it could, but that's not my point.

Anyway, who cares, if someone wants to pay extra and put windows on it, it's their business. It's not my job (or yours, or anyones) to dictate what OS can be used on someones computer.

But this is closer to my point. If both MS and Intel were on board, you can bet that soon someone would be deciding what OS some developing-world government is putting on its OLPCs. And if this is a charity project, perhaps we do have a job in making sure, or at least in being concerned, that government procurement offices don't fall for MS's rhetoric.

Re:yes, Wintel

[somersault]

It's not my job (or yours, or anyones) to dictate what OS can be used on someones computer. I'm a Bootcamp codemonkey you insensitive clod! >:(

Re:yes, Wintel

[ByOhTek]

Bootcamp lets you boot other OSes than MacOS on a Mac, without actually forcing you to use them, right?

That's fits pretty nicely what I was saying - nobody should be force to use an OS they don't want to use (and provding options reduces the chances of the person being forced.)

Re:yes, Wintel

[somersault]

Yep it makes the process easier, though I'm sure there exist Apple engineers' whose purpose is to stop Mac OS working on non Apple hardware, which is another way of 'forcing' people to use a certain OS (in this case any x86 OS other than Mac OS).

Re:yes, Wintel

[ByOhTek]

That strikes me more of a method of forcing people to buy Mac hardware if they want MacOS, and causing hardware-lock.

Makes sense, from the perspective of them being a hardware company.

Bootcamp makes me chuckle when I hear of it though, I actually know a place that bought a bunch of Mac Minis for a computer lab, because for some arcane reason, they needed vista, and the minis were the cheapest way to get it running decently without getting completely unstable hardware, or hardware that would fail in a year.

Re:yes, Wintel

[DSW-128]

It's not my job (or yours, or anyones) to dictate what OS can be used on someones computer.

I'm Bill Gates, and it is my job to do just that!

Re:yes, Wintel

[Locutus]

remember, the ClassMate PC is a Microsoft/Intel project originally designed to combat the OLPC device. IIRC, it is part of the Microsoft Unlimited Potential program which sprung from another Linux based low cost laptop program in Thailand. There, HP was involved with a very low cost laptop having Linux and a bunch of OSS pre-loaded. That was so successful, Dell had to help with the order fulfillment but by then, it caught Microsoft's eye and they got involved. Microsoft offered a crippled version of Windows and MS Office for $3/device and probably subsidized that cost with Microsoft funded training. Well, Linux was pulled from the program and the laptops got Windows and Microsoft software.

People just don't realize that Microsoft and Intel are not really out there to help people. Their primary goal is to make profits and they are not willing to let a charity or non-profit threaten any profit. Even if it is potential future profits. They will do as they are doing and they will try and stop it. Sad but true even when the OLPC project decided on Linux and the OSS foundation for technical and educational merits. Sugar could have probably fit over Windows Explorer but Windows requires more hardware and Microsoft just does not like OSS anyways.

You've gotta love how Microsoft has a "new" OS out but all the mention on these lower cost devices is with Windows XP. They can't even put their new OS on these new hardware platforms. Heck, they can't even put their old one( XP ) on many of them yet here we see these devices getting the latest Linux and OSS fit on most all these devices. Makes you wonder what design principals Microsoft was adhering to when they work on building their next OS. It's not like putting an OS on these small devices is a new concept... anyways, the clowns of Microsoft and Intel have nothing but the destruction of projects like OLPC in mind and for self serving reasons. Nothing but, IMO.

LoB

Re:yes, Wintel

[Anonymous Coward]

but... the XO comes pre-loaded with linux, not windows. Your argument is irrelevant.

Re:OLPC not a success

[Pecisk]

There was some Slashdot article which informed that "G1G1" was colosal success. They finished it just because they don't have infrastructure and resources for this, but nevertheless, in aprox. 2 months they sold enormous count of boxes.

Could be this continued? Definitely. They just need resources to manage that.

OLPC final version was just released and I bet lot of countries look at first adopters to decide later. So calling OLPC not a success is too soon, I think.

For me, they already succeeded to prove that such program has a market. How it will end, depends not only on OLPC team, but more or less insight in governments around the world.

What's the OLPC afraid of?

[16K Ram Pack]

It's yet another cranky decision by the people at the OLPC. Intel to not work on other competing projects? Are they kidding? No company is going to agree that and bet on a single project at this early stage in the development of such projects.

Competition is good. The more different players in this market, the better. Because more innovation will deliver lower costs, and products closest to what people want. If the people at the OLPC care most about getting computing power to the people in developing countries, they'd welcome that,not try and stop it.

The OLPC people just don't get the real world. They closed their "buy one give one" despite that giving free laptops to the sort of people that they claim to be serving.

Re:What's the OLPC afraid of?

[R2.0]

I think they are afraid of the following scenario:

1) OLPC board discusses sales prospects in new countries.
2) Intel rep to OLPC calls home.
3) Intel parachutes into the prospects, hijacking the groundwork done bu the OLPC team to sell the Classmate instead.
4) Profit.

Farfetched? I don't think so.

Re:Question:

[wwmedia]

what does this have anything to do with microsoft?

something bad occurs => blame microsoft?

bleh why am i feeding the troll :(

Faulty math

[edwardpickman]

Sell one for $400, that's called breaking even since you paid $400 and only recieved one machine. Also I'm assuming you paid shipping for the one unit so you lost money at $400. I guess you could try buying a 100 machines and make it up in volume but that never seems to work for some strange reason.

Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[Marcion]

What confuses me is that the OLPC association is ADAMANT about not offering their product commercially.

Several of the world's most important tech companies, and lots of talented people, work for free at cost on the OLPC. They do this because OLPC is not competing with their own business operations.

If the OLPC becomes a commercial operation, then they risk cannabalising these firm's own operations, therefore OLPC have to tread very carefully.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[GuyfromTrinidad]

Can't they come up with a business model that achieve both ends. I like the idea of selling them at a slightly higher price to industralized nations (my son asked for one when the buy one give one promotion started and it is only because I am outside of the US that I did not access it). Many non-profits bring down their costs by offering commercial services. I know of one non-profit that maintains a parking lot and makes a tidy sum from it as well as offer medical services to companies to be able to provide it to persons who can't afford it. With all the reports we have heard about OLPC in Africa,good and bad, it would be sad if this project crumbles.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[mrsteveman1]

If they would quit with the free love charity work and just agree to sell them to the market that wants them, those people (or others with similar abilities) could be EMPLOYED by the project.

The entire OLPC model is causing problems at this point, EeePC just completely stole the market from them with a better device, quicker.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[PatrickThomson]

Can't risk scaring off a big tech backer like, say, intel, now, can we?

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[sumdumass]

Can't they come up with a business model that achieve both ends

Sure they can. However, it seems that for some reasons they don't' want to. It is strange that they are afraid of Intel wanting to compete with itself in a different market area. Maybe the problem isn't so much capitalism but Idealistic visions.

I like the idea of selling them at a slightly higher price to industralized nations (my son asked for one when the buy one give one promotion started and it is only because I am outside of the US that I did not access it). Many non-profits bring down their costs by offering commercial services. I know of one non-profit that maintains a parking lot and makes a tidy sum from it as well as offer medical services to companies to be able to provide it to persons who can't afford it. With all the reports we have heard about OLPC in Africa,good and bad, it would be sad if this project crumbles.

They don't even need to sell the entire thing. Something as simple as selling developed components or licensing tech that could in effect pay for the distribution of the laptops to the target audience would be both beneficial and attract the type of participation that could make it a reality.

I wouldn't mind getting some of the tech in the OLPC project into other products. Something like a pull string on a cell phone that could get you another 10 or 20 minutes of talk time because you know you never realize your battery is about to die until you receive that important call. Maybe something else like the low power display adapted to a visor or eye glass unit and a cell phone or pager sized device that is a computer that hooks to your belt and runs on minimal power requirements. There really is an unlimited amount of stuff that can be had with this stuff without directly competing with the project.

But even on the project's perspective, if the goal is to get cheap or free computing power to third world countries, then why would it be bad if a large company started giving it away too? I mean if Intel developed their own OLPC product and started using their massive corporate profits to give them away or sell them for $200, wouldn't it still achieve the goal? Or is there some ulterior motive behind the project? I understand Intel pulling out, however I don't see it as a major blow. And I see the CTO leaving as a positive more then anything for the project.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[Anonymous Coward]

Several of the world's most important tech companies, and lots of talented people, work for free at cost on the OLPC. They do this because OLPC is not competing with their own business operations.

Then what the heck is up with the demand that intel NOT develop the ClassmatePC? If OLPC is not competing with their business operations, then they should not care what other products intel is developing.

One Laptop Per Child is starting to look more like "OUR Laptop Per Child".

Or alternately:
One Laptop to rule them all
One Laptop to find them
One Laptop to bring them all
and in the darkness bind them

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[SanityInAnarchy]

One point which has been made is that the Classmate is direct competition. To rip off someone else's example:

1. OLPC discovers a particular area might be in the market.
2. Intel rep hears about this at the board meeting.
3. Intel rep phones home.
4. Intel parachutes in with free ClassmatePCs.

Essentially, Intel gets to rip off all of OLPC's market research, for lack of a better term.

That's ignoring, of course, the more tinfoil-hattish version: Classmate is Intel and Microsoft's response to OLPC, out of fear that an entire generation of children might grow up without them. Therefore, it's really got nothing to do with the children, and the design shows -- the XO is vastly superior for what it's designed to be.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[rbanffy]

"They don't even need to sell the entire thing. Something as simple as selling developed components or licensing tech that could in effect pay for the distribution of the laptops to the target audience would be both beneficial and attract the type of participation that could make it a reality."

That's what going to happen with the screen http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/01/1324240. AMD sells the processor, Marvell sells all the wireless components and there are literally dozens of manual chargers for phones. All components of the OLPC are readily available if you want to build, say, a thousand of them and many are available in stores.

You complain nobody is making a cheap $200 notebook. There is the EeePC from ASUS, which does not employ XO's cool display, but has a better keyboard. If sales are strong, they have proved a market exists for cheap ultraportable notebooks.

Have some patience. Someone is bound to pursue that market.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[Locutus]

don't forget to mention how publicly Bill Gates dismisses the OLPC device and how Intel was out targeting OLPC customers with bogus marketing materials in ClassMatePC vs OLPC type comparisons.

Wasn't it Peru which purchased 10's of thousands of ClassMatePC's instead of OLPC laptops? And that's not all, when they were ordered with Linux, Microsoft came in and 'negotiated' a way to fund the replacing of Linux with Microsoft Windows.

And people wonder why OLPC insisted Intel drop the ClassMatePC if they wanted to remain on the OLPC Board and involved in the project.

LoB

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[sumdumass]

That's what going to happen with the screen http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/01/01/1324240. AMD sells the processor, Marvell sells all the wireless components and there are literally dozens of manual chargers for phones. All components of the OLPC are readily available if you want to build, say, a thousand of them and many are available in stores.

Well, it was my understanding that some of the stuff was created specifically for the project. stuff like the mainboards and so on. It is nice to know that most of the components can be had even if all of them can be. As for a manual charger for a phone, I'm wanting something built in that I don't have to hunt for and connect. Something that I can say hold on for a second, pull a string, twist a crank, or shake the phone and only take a few seconds to do and then be able to talk an additional 10 or 20 minutes and do it again if I have to. I don't know how many times I have received calls from Friends serving in Iraq or a call back from a tech support call just to find my phone is about dead and beeping in my ear. Now, the calls from Iraq might not be common place for most people but I am sure that there are lots of times not letting the call drop would be preferable.

You complain nobody is making a cheap $200 notebook. There is the EeePC from ASUS, which does not employ XO's cool display, but has a better keyboard. If sales are strong, they have proved a market exists for cheap ultraportable notebooks.

Have some patience. Someone is bound to pursue that market.

Well, complain isn't really how I would describe it, desire, wish and hope may be more appropriate. But your right, if the market is there, the products will come. I seem to be having problems finding the EeePC for under $400 though. If you know of a location with them for about $200, it would great if you told me of it.

I think the market is there. There are a lot of people who need something like a laptop but don't "need" the ability to play games, watch movies, and so on. If this can be done for around $200 then I can see them moving pretty well. I just need something with a keyboard big enough to use, decent storage and a half way decent display that can be used and not be financially set back when someone breaks it or it gets stolen when I leave it in the car to do something non work related. But what is really impressive about the XO (OLPC) is the ruggedness. I'm not always the friendliest with electronics. If there is a way for it to easily break, I can find the easiest way to break it. I have dropped them, tripped over the charger cables and pulled them off the desks, right now I have two dells that the female part of the charger inputs are loose on the main board (the plastics broke as well) that won't charge unless you hold the power cord in a certain way. I had them looked at and attempted to solder them but it isn't any better.

I know I am not along in this. I'm confident others would find them useful took.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[Wavicle]

OLPC discovers a particular area might be in the market.

Nonsense. OLPC wasn't started for business reasons, it was started for philanthropic reasons.

Intel rep hears about this at the board meeting.

Nonsense. Negroponte started shouting his idea to the four winds before there was solid analysis to support the notion that a $100 laptop could be produced.

Intel rep phones home.

Nonsense. Many companies have been waiting for the strategic time when the cost of components matches the purchasing power of poorer countries. That is now only barely possible.

Intel parachutes in with free ClassmatePCs.

Nonsense. It takes a couple years to bring a PC product like that to market. You have no good data to indicate Intel hasn't been toying with ultra-low cost portables for a while.

Essentially, Intel gets to rip off all of OLPC's market research, for lack of a better term.

Also an inaccurate term. OLPC did lousy market research which is why they are having trouble. Not because of competitive threats from Intel and Asus.

Classmate is Intel and Microsoft's response to OLPC, out of fear that an entire generation of children might grow up without them.

I realize it is all the rage on Slashdot to re-iterate the groupthink that Classmate was begat of a conspiracy between Intel and Microsoft, but it is not. Classmate is an Intel product. The version of Classmate that can run Windows is more expensive because it must have more flash and more RAM.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[spage]

The entire OLPC model is causing problems at this point, EeePC just completely stole the market from them with a better device, quicker.

Your comment makes no sense at all. OLPC is an education project. How many large deals with education ministries has EeePC landed? Different computers for different markets.

It is obvious that the "One Laptop Per Child in developing countries" market is slow and tough going, but OLPC adding a consumer focus would be an enormous distraction. And the moderate success of Give One Get One shows that there ISN'T a huge USA consumer market for the XO.

The XO machine works, the hardware and software developers continue to do an excellent job, some education roll-outs are happening, the free content and activities created for the project are just getting started and will be GREAT for education. Give the project time!

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[rbanffy]

"Well, it was my understanding that some of the stuff was created specifically for the project"

Yes. Lots of stuff was developed for the XO, but there is nothing precluding those components from hitting the shelves. The biggest hurdle probably is that few of them have Windows drivers ;-)

"I seem to be having problems finding the EeePC for under $400"

I think there was a version of the EeePC for $299, with 4 GB of storage instead of 8. The SSD is, certainly, a major factor on unit price and 5 GB seems to be a requirement for it to run Windows XP.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[sumdumass]

Yes. Lots of stuff was developed for the XO, but there is nothing precluding those components from hitting the shelves. The biggest hurdle probably is that few of them have Windows drivers ;-)

No, I mean that they have the fab right to and run so many parts as they need them. If everything is available, then hell yea.

I think there was a version of the EeePC for $299, with 4 GB of storage instead of 8. The SSD is, certainly, a major factor on unit price and 5 GB seems to be a requirement for it to run Windows XP.

XP isn't a factor for me. But it might be a factor in the availability which is why I cannot find them for sale. That is something that makes the OLPC so attractive. But I guess the EeePC comes with a word processor and stuff. I'm not sure of the quality or how easy it is to change out though. Maybe I will keep looking at the EeePC stuff.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[rbanffy]

"XP isn't a factor for me. But it might be a factor in the availability which is why I cannot find them for sale. That is something that makes the OLPC so attractive."

I used to joke they should build it around a fast multi-core ARM11 with integrated caches and FPU/GPU and make it utterly Windows-proof so there is no risk Microsoft will ever ruin the fun.

In fact, this was a re-hash of half-jokes I made in the beginning of the "Computador para Todos" ("Computers for Everyone", an incentive program Brazilian government engaged in, to make inexpensive computers available that, at one point, generated some interesting hardware prototypes. Now it is a tax-exemption program that works very well.

That were, of course, absolutely Windows-proof.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[SanityInAnarchy]

Apparently, Peru did go OLPC, at least in part. There were some very heartwarming stories about remote Peruvian villages, in which kids have had the laptops for six months now.

Am I missing something, though? Did they do some tiny pilot OLPC project, and then switch to ClassmatePC?

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[SanityInAnarchy]

Nonsense. OLPC wasn't started for business reasons, it was started for philanthropic reasons.

"in the market" was a figure of speech. The question is one of viability of a particular area, even assuming you can get this thing wholly funded from elsewhere. (And they are giving away ClassmatePCs.)

Nonsense. Negroponte started shouting his idea to the four winds before there was solid analysis to support the notion that a $100 laptop could be produced.

I am talking about a specific geographic area being viable. You know, "Hey, this town here seems to have a lot of bright young kids, and their parents are all for it, we've got teachers on board to train to use computers..."

Nonsense. Many companies have been waiting for the strategic time when the cost of components matches the purchasing power of poorer countries. That is now only barely possible.

Irrelevant in light of those two points: That Classmate may be given away, and that I'm talking about a specific geographic area (or country, etc).

Nonsense. It takes a couple years to bring a PC product like that to market.

Again, missing the point. Missing it by this much means I must not have been clear; I'll have to go read my original post.

They have it available already, don't they? And if they don't, who's to say that scenario won't work once both products are viable?

I realize it is all the rage on Slashdot to re-iterate the groupthink that Classmate was begat of a conspiracy between Intel and Microsoft, but it is not. Classmate is an Intel product. The version of Classmate that can run Windows is more expensive because it must have more flash and more RAM.

I knew about the more money/flash/RAM angle, but let me check...

No, you're right. Can't find a link to Microsoft, other than various other completely unverified stories, like Microsoft offering to "upgrade" some country to the Windows version of the Classmate. But I'm not sure I could find the comment that suggested that, even, so I was completely wrong on that.

Re:Commercial sale risks alliance falling apart

[Locutus]

It was/is Nigeria which all the ruckus was about with regards to Microsoft funding the removal of OSS from the ClassmatePC's they ordered with Linux. Peru is where they are deploying and as you mentioned, there was a nice story recently about it:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-laptop_webdec22,1,6878223.story?ctrack=2&cset=true

LoB

its better this way,

[rtgarden]

Intel never ever *got it*. The idea is to reach genius...not potential consumers. They have had very thinly disguised self-aggrandizing motivations from the start. It is significant to note that OLPC moved clear of Intel and started movement on commercial production in the same week. This project may have a slower set up on the exponential curve towards saturation than predicted...however if the XO takes off as a reader and travel rig then they may still be in production long enough to actually reach a lot of kids. There is a practicality for extending the mesh network on water towers and cell phone towers so that even without electricity many children will be able to study and share and learn using this vast resource. The question is not "what can we give them" it is "what will they teach us?"

OLPC will stand or fall on the XO laptop itself

[dpbsmith]

I don't see how any of this makes much difference.

I have an XO laptop, and it seems pretty clear at this point that the existing XO can do, technologically, what it's supposed to do. The hardware tradeoffs were very clever, very well thought out, and they seem to be manufacturing it successfully in quantity. I'm assuming that some teething pains and glitches, which are no worse that typical commercial products at first release, can be dealt with.

I'm not the intended audience for the software. I don't particularly like the Sugar UI, and can't judge how much is just because I just don't "get it" and how much is because I've been brainwashed by two decades of the Mac and Windows. It seems to me that the software has rather a lot of rough edges. But it doesn't matter. It's perfectly clear that the thing works, and is more than capable of being used in classrooms. The browser works, the Alto/Star/1984-Mac write and paint programs work, the PDF viewer works, the wireless access works.

The collaboration and social-networking stuff seems to sorta-kinda work. I have some reservations, but it's there, and there's nothing comparable built into Windows or standard Linux today.

It doesn't matter whether Intel throws a hissy-fit and stomps out or not. Nor does it matter that their hardware designer left: she completed her work and it was good work.

If their education premises are correct, this device is good enough to fulfill them.

And the XOs not comparable to anything anyone can do in the way of building a cheap Windows laptop. The XO has carved out a very distinct, very new, very innovative niche in product space. Nobody is going to be able to make the equivalent of an XO just by taking a standard Wintel laptop and paring down the OS and replacing the disk drive with 1, no, 2, no, 4, no 8 GB of flash, and adding a Windows version of TamTamJam.

If an Intel and/or a Microsoft truly signs on to the OLPC's education premises and puts in an equivalent amount of work producing something as good, as cheap, and as good a fit to the same product space, they might be able to trample OLPC but OLPC's goals could still be achieved. However, the likelihood of Intel and Microsoft doing this is about the same as the likelihood of GM producing a two-wheeled, pedal-powered Hummer that costs $139 and is suitable for a ten-year-old kid.

Re:OLPC will stand or fall on the XO laptop itself

[samkass]

There are a lot of comparisons between the XO and the old Apple eMate from the 90's. Even some blow-by-blow comparison reviews. I'm a little skeptical that if Apple, given its existing educational relationships and market, couldn't pull it off that the XO can. And while the eMate costed $800, it was also marketed at first-world schools. Compared to annual salary, the $200 XO is vastly more expensive to a third-world buyer than an eMate was to an American.

Re:OLPC will stand or fall on the XO laptop itself

[glop]

The way I see it the OLPC is a huge success. Not because they have achieved all their goals but because they have already changed the world. They have set a benchmark, shown the way which resulted in:
  - Asus doing the EEE PC (299$ for the cheapest one. Sucks more juice, the screen is not as good in sunlight etc. But still, it owes its existence to the OLPC)
  - Microsoft is busy porting XP to the OLPC and trying to improve their offer for developing countries and education
  - many people have OLPCs
  - more people are convinced that simple and cheap machines, simple applications can be very useful

Personally, I got an EEE PC because it was extensible and the trade-offs seemed more adequate for me (heck, I am using the Xandros distribution that came with it, I can fire up bash, install Emacs etc.).

I am really grateful to the OLPC project, because they inspired a new wave of smaller, simpler machines that will be very useful for education. Myself, I plan to use my EEE to learn a thing or two on my daily train ride.

Re:OLPC will stand or fall on the XO laptop itself

[ProfessorDoom]

I participated in the give-one-get-one program and got one of these for my kids (6 and 8). I literally pulled it out of the box, put in the batteries, showed them where to plug in the power cord, and have not touched it since. Two days after getting it, my six year old had written multiple stories and was browsing the web easily enough that I'll need to think about watching where they go browsing. She'd also figured out how to use the microphone and the camera software and was using them somewhat ... creatively (you need to think like a 6-year old...).

Based on this, I'd say the interface is pretty good. They're still getting used to the transactions for pulling up the stories they've written, but other than that it's been very smooth.

Re:OLPC will stand or fall on the XO laptop itself

[Anonymous Coward]

We are not in the 90s any more. The world that we live in today isn't the same so it's not a fair comparison.

The eMate was also a far less capable machine (even compared to standard low end PCs of the time). It was more like a Newton, only physically larger.

Re:OLPC will stand or fall on the XO laptop itself

[samkass]

It's debatable how much "less capable" the eMate was compared to low-end PCs of its day. Most low-end PCs then, and even now, don't ship with built-in pens and touch-screens to use with handwriting recognition. It's true the eMate had a slower processor, less RAM, and a smaller grayscale display. On the other hand, it had about two work*days* of battery life, the screen could be read in sunlight, and the OS was more efficient with the RAM.

So yes, the specs were less, but that's not how I measure "capable". And I think the XO folks are making the same point. The XO is more useful (ie. "capable") than many laptops of significantly more robust specifications.

I think dismissing the similarities so quickly is to ignore a valuable historical lesson. Even if you disagree that it portends likely failure, if you want to succeed you should probably try to learn from the comparison.

Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[John Sokol]

Arm has made some incredible strides towards standardization and multi vendors. There as so many cheap reference boards these days.

Most arm chips are made with Cell phones in mind as well, some support MMX and Jazelle Java extensions.
Many have Micron CMOS camera chip interfaces and built in LCD drivers, and a mess of GPIO and MMC etc.

Linux and Uboot are a sweet combination on them also.

Look at PXA270 and PXA300 from Marvell & Blackfin (uC Linux)
Also ARM is licensing there chip design for 8 Cents a copy, so you can easily make a ASIC based on arm.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

Also another option is that there is already $5 computers in China and India. There not laptops and you need to connect them into a TV but still they have Keyboard, Mice, Game joysticks and 100's of pirated games on them. Even ones that can web surf. these are from a Chinese company called Gold Leopard King, but they are impossible to track down and contact, but the markets there are flooded with them.

http://ultimateconsoledatabase.com/famiclones/gold_leopard_king.htm
The whole computer is just passive switches, and there is only one Chip in the entire PC, it's in the cartridge. Amazing thing, Perfect copies of Mario Brothers, Pac-man, Donkey Kong, Defender, Galaga, Dig Dug. I always get one for the kids when were in India, and just give it away when we leave, it's PAL video out, so we can't use it back in the USA.

Re:Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[bangthegong]

Those are some serious-looking guns packaged with the NES-style Gold Leopard King consoles!

Re:Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[LuxuryYacht]

The problem with the PXA versions of the ARM based SOC's has been proprietary and/or binary only libraries. Linux runs on the core cpu but you run into a wall when you need to get multimedia codecs or 2d/3d graphics support working at any usable rate.

RMI Mips based (formerly AMD/Alechemy) SOC's http://www.razamicroelectronics.com/products_alchemy/ are more open when it comes to multimedia and Linux support.

3DLabs has some multicore ARM mutimedia 2D/3D SOC's http://www.3dlabs.com/content/mediaProcessor.asp . But they don't open the tools and libraries to develop codecs.

Freescale also has their i.MX line of ARM media SOC's http://www.freescale.com/webapp/sps/site/taxonomy.jsp?nodeId=0162468rH311432973ZrDR

Debian/Linux and UBoot support is available for the cores for many ARM SOC's but the problem has always been open source with the multimedia and graphics acceleration portions of the designs.

Re:Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[Anonymous Coward]

it's PAL video out, so we can't use it back in the USA. Looking at NTSC support in Europe, I'd assume that almost any TV larger than 19" sold in the US in at least the last 5 years should accept PAL signals. For flat panel TVs, even if they have only 480 lines of physical resolution, I'd bet that almost 100% support PAL.

Re:Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[John Sokol]

  For OLPC I do they really need something to play HD video and compete with the latest Dell/Toshiba laptops,
    I don't think so, these are for third world counties where something like a speak and spell would be high tech.
    Personally they shouldn't be using LCD's anyhow the backlight are power hungry. I think Electronic Paper like E-Ink, and Kodak/Kent have developed and is now using in Jeff Bozos new E-book thing, Kindle ( I just keep thinking of Fahrenheit 451 on that one)
http://www.kentdisplays.com/

  The PXA uses MMX (like on Pentium's), I don't see what is proprietary for that, so what I can't use their proprietary libs, who cares.
  I have been using PXA and Blackfin for video for a while now, and never even heard about proprietary libs/extensions, but again the first think I did was ignore any software tools from them and went straight to GAS and GCC.
  Anyhow where I work Marvell has been more then happy to dump any documentation we want about these chips. They don't have any tech support for problems, so we are in RTFM mode when we get stuck. Fortunately things have been very smooth, even good JTAG tools.

  I think ARM has far better ecosystem for tools, code and support then MIPS. I mean I have watched code I built for one embedded device run on several PDA and even an IPhone without recompile, blew my mind.

Re:Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[LuxuryYacht]

I helped with early development on the OLPC. OLPC really wanted the safe feeling of x86.

I've worked on several low cost computing platforms for the third world. If your applications can live without a FPU and 3D graphics then the PXA's may be a good fit. The i.MX SOC's always come in priced lower than the PXA's and have a FPU. Support is just as poor.

An ARM + FPU + 2D/3D graphics + mpeg2,4 accel. + SATA + USB-2 for under $10 in high volume will rule the third world.

Re:Screw Intel. They need to be ARM Based.

[John Sokol]

I would really like to be able to talk directly with the OLPC People, I haven't made any attempts as of yet.

I have alway been very good at squeezing out the most from minimal hardware.

The PXA has a what they call "Wireless MMX" this is an FPU !! The similar MMX that is supported by the x86 processors!

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/04/12/intel_ships_bulverde/

We are paying around $15 per chip for the PXA270's right now and I know the price could easily come down, but the PXA3xx is the newer lower cost chips with increased speed and more I/O.

Anyhow I don't see anyone complaining about the processing power and graphics on the iPhone and that plays all kinds of cool graphics tricks.

Why does OLPC care so much about MPEG4?

Last time I worked with a bunch of MIT Media Lab Weenies was on a project called charmed. they pushed me out and made something that looked like an old army canteen based on PC104.
http://creativetech.inn.leedsmet.ac.uk/staff/rb/Wearable.html

It never went anywhere. At the same time I was working on a 3rd gen of my wearable based on a new super chip that I was working on with Chuck Moore. http://www.intellasys.net/products/index.php this was based on http://www.colorforth.com/ X25 chip, sorry he pull that page down. http://www.ultratechnology.com/ml0.htm see X25

We did get a prototype wearable done from this.

In the mean time I also made the mistake of teaching some Chinese how to build the goggles, be never the the funding to keep them exclusive to my project. http://www.dnull.com/goggle/p.html BTW: I get them Whole Sale cheaper, and that site is not the manufacturer but a reseller.

My whole system BOM was $35 in quantity, technically what I had would do the job of the OLPC except for power consumption and it's wearable screens not laptop style, but maybe better if your herding goats. After all who cares about getting middle class kids cheaper PC's let mom buy them a new Laptop for $750.

Also SATA, no way, use SD Flash now. USB sure the kids in Africa and India will have all the latest USB gadgets as soon as Fry's open up a store there, NOT.

The Gold Leopard King PC is literally one chip, probably some 8 bit core, most likely downloaded from opencores.org with Pirated game roms and Sells for $5 (350 rupees). There probably using the same fabs for digital watches and calculators. I'd love to know how to find them.

We could put one or more 500 Mhz arms in one chip, 64Meg DRAM with 2 gigs of SD and a Kent Display and some simple wireless, Even a camera and get the whole BOM down to $20 to $30 in 100K volumes with about $10M in development. It would of course run stock Linux. The display wouldn't be fast for clear video, but slow video and good audio would be great. Or for a little more add a tiny 1x1 inch LCD for the video.

Again, why are they trying to build these things like High end Gaming machines. The point is to make something closer to the French Minitel http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Minitel, basically get them on the web, and E-mail and access to the worlds Knowledge and educational software. Not to be able to play WarCraft, surf porn and watch YouTube! Or worse yet create a larger army of 409 scammers.

Buy trying to play this venture using more traditional technology and , AMD, Intel, M$ etc, they just invited grinches to attack. Intel would have to kill this just to ensure there middle class parents

Intel did this to me

[neuromancer2701]

At my old job, we develop industrial test equipment(actually a cooling solution for current equipment) for AMD and Intel. Well as a startup we got in trouble because my bosses were asses. So Intel funded us a bunch of money and encourage us to sell the company to one of their buddies in the test equipment business. We shopped the startup around to various companies but then all of a sudden Intel and this other company(both were "observers" on our board) resigned one day. The following weeks we were "forced" into spliting the company up and the other company got the half of our company that Intel had wanted.

I would bet that the CEO is going to work for Intel to develop a cheap laptop for them. The pattern just looks to familiar.

Salvation Army is no longer acceptable to me

[dpbsmith]

I gave to the Salvation Army for thirty years.

It emerged in 2001 that they discriminate against gays in their hiring practices. (Actually it had emerged well before that but I hadn't been paying attention).

The Salvation Army is no longer acceptable to me and I no longer contribute to them.

Re:Salvation Army is no longer acceptable to me

[Lord Apathy]

I've been reading over this post and it excapes me. What the Fuck does this have to do with OLPC? Please explain. I really want to know.

Re:OLPC == Scam

[denzacar]

Salvation Army is working on a cheap laptop for children too?

Someone please explain to me...

[Churla]

I don't see how on this site where the mantra for all things seems to be "competition is good" that Intel should be bashed for not giving in to demands that it not develop products which could be considered alternatives.

It isn't like Intel is going to throw down the humanitarian angle of OLPC anyways, and I thought one of the selling points to companies participating in the project was that advances there could be incorporated into retail devices as well?

If I'm wrong on this please correct me.

Re:Someone please explain to me...

[Improv]

Competition with your partners, when investment in productiuon and similar are involved, is a bit different from competition in general...

Abso-fuckin-lutely

[denzacar]

And all those parts that laptops are made of are grown on trees that spontaneously sprout around OLPC HQs.
And then, they just fall on the ground when they are ripe, and are rolled around by winds and rain until they form complete laptops.
During that time, software for the laptop grows from the spores in the ground.

And then, once complete, laptops grow wings and fly directly to the child in need using the same guidance technology that Santa has been using for countless eons.

And that is why there is no money involved in the production of the OLPC.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[SeePage87]

Exactly. It should also be noted that not-for-profit refers only to the entity; it's goal isn't to make wealth that is distributed to its shareholders. Salaries are still paid to NFPs' employees including the principals who founded the institutions. Sometimes these salaries are very high.

However, this isn't a failure of capitalism. Capitalism allowed the OLPC to be created at all levels, and it was OLPC wanting Intel to cease it's production of more cheap laptops that caused Intel (who had previously done a great deal of good for the project) to step out. OLPC wanted to be the only game in town. Having more cheap laptops for children in the world is a good thing, regardless of who makes them. If the XO is a better laptop, then people will get those. If OLPC can't meet the demand because their product is too good, better to have a Classmate than nothing. So if you want to demonize someone for keeping cheap laptops out of childrens' hands, then demonize OLPC for biting the hand that feeds it.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[ShatteredArm]

I would've done the same thing, too. If I were distributing free donated pies, there wouldn't be much sense in me telling one of my donors I don't want them to sell cheap pies.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Anonymous Coward]

"However, this isn't a failure of capitalism."

What *would* be a failure of capitalism? I keep hearing this from ultra-pro-capitalists, it seems like capitalism is completely tautological and immune from rational analysis. This is what I dislike about discussions of capitalism on slashdot their are a lot of pro-market / pro-libertarians who wouldn't know was a *failure* of capitalism is due to religious faith in dogmatic ideals divorced from how a system actually exists and effects people, you cannot unwed the idea from the person or the people and culture in which it exists and their behaviour which is a result of valuing certain values above others even if it is completely irrational.

Einstein said it best on the interconnection of all things; "A human being is part of the whole called by us universe, a part limited in time and space. We experience ourselves, our thoughts and feelings as something separate from the rest. A kind of optical delusion of consciousness. This delusion is a kind of prison for us, restricting us to our personal desires and to affection for a few persons nearest to us. Our task must be to free ourselves from the prison by widening our circle of compassion to embrace all living creatures and the whole of nature in its beauty... The true value of a human being is determined primarily by the measure and the sense in which they have obtained liberation from the self. We shall require a substantially new manner of thinking if humanity is to survive. (Albert Einstein, 1954)"

So I want to know what exactly would qualify as a failure of capitalist idealogy? If nothing, then speaking of "true capitalism" is like speaking of the toothfairy: It doesn't really exist.

When people speak about systems they speak and criticize *how they really work and effect people* not some ideal theorized version that lives in fairy fairy land.

The idea that most people are under is that somehow capitalist ideas are somehow divorced from the world it isn't we can go to relativity to prove the nonsense of such 'seperation'.

"When forced to summarize the general theory of relativity in one sentence: Time and space and gravitation have no separate existence from matter.

Physical objects are not in space, but these objects are spatially extended. In this way the concept 'empty space' loses its meaning. Since the theory of general relatively implies the representation of physical reality by a continuous field, the concept of particles or material points cannot play a fundamental part, and can only appear as a limited region in space where the field strength / energy density are particularly high. (Albert Einstein, 1950)"

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[SeePage87]

The reason Capitalism doesn't fail normally is because consumers don't allow it to. If they don't like something they can immediately retaliate by not purchasing it.

That being said, we do see Capitalism fail frequently in this country because it is too closely tied to government. Capitalism fails when, to get a competitive edge, it is cheaper to buy a politician than make a better product. For example, our sugar prices are 5x the world price because of quotas paid for by the U.S. sugar industry and our corn prices are low because we've already paid most of their subsidized cost in taxes. As a result everything in America is made with corn syrup instead of sugar, even though it tastes worse and is one of the largest causes of obesity in this county because of the way our bodies metabolize it. That being said, this isn't Capitalism's failure so much as the separation of Capitalism and a free market. Similarly, Altruism is great, but if you separate from it the ability to distinguish between which actions help others and which actions hurt others then things can also get ugly. The difference is a free market is able to be set by policy where as it's part of being human to make frequent misjudgments about what others want.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[GnarlyDoug]

Once Capitalism is married to government like you describe, it is no longer Capitalism but is instead Fascism. That is the problem with Capitalism. Since it is effective at concentrating capital in the hands of people best able to use it to improve the economy, eventually you have enough power in the hands of a few that they can begin corrupting the system for their own ends. Enough of this and they have destroyed the system that allowed them to become successful and instead you have a system not based on a free market and free trade among free men, but instead that modern version of Feudalism that is Fascism.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Anonymous Coward]

"Intel... who had previously done a great deal of good for the project"

All Intel had visibly done for the project from the date of their joining to the end of October was to kick in the membership fee. That's it. Nothing on the engineering front, nothing on the software front, nothing on the display front (just like Google; nothing material). Maybe that changed dramatically during November and December, but I highly doubt it.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Oligonicella]

Uh, no.

fascism, n.
1. (sometimes cap.) a governmental system led by a dictator having complete power, forcibly suppressing opposition and criticism, regimenting all industry, commerce, etc., and emphasizing an aggressive nationalism and often racism.
2. (sometimes cap.) the philosophy, principles, or methods of fascism.
3. (cap.) a fascist movement, esp. the one established by Mussolini in Italy 1922-43.


That does not exist here, regardless of how much you wave your little hands and stamp your little feet.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[ahabswhale]

Exactly. It should also be noted that not-for-profit refers only to the entity; it's goal isn't to make wealth that is distributed to its shareholders. Salaries are still paid to NFPs' employees including the principals who founded the institutions. Sometimes these salaries are very high.

However, this isn't a failure of capitalism. Capitalism allowed the OLPC to be created at all levels, and it was OLPC wanting Intel to cease it's production of more cheap laptops that caused Intel (who had previously done a great deal of good for the project) to step out. OLPC wanted to be the only game in town. Having more cheap laptops for children in the world is a good thing, regardless of who makes them. If the XO is a better laptop, then people will get those. If OLPC can't meet the demand because their product is too good, better to have a Classmate than nothing. So if you want to demonize someone for keeping cheap laptops out of childrens' hands, then demonize OLPC for biting the hand that feeds it.

For starters, Negroponte makes ZERO DOLLARS from his OLPC organization. The organization's CFO makes ZERO DOLLARS. So your first point is completely irrelevant to the discussion at hand. As for Intel doing a "great deal of good" for the project...PLEASE explain how. They supposedly gave them some money but it's not clear how much. Meanwhile, they were still building and promoting the Classmate the whole time. The primary reason for the alliance was just so they would stop sniping at each other in the press. So before you go mouthing off about how OLPC is the one keeping laptops out of the hands of children, keep in mind all of what I said so far and then keep in mind that these kids were getting ZERO laptops prior to Negroponte's efforts and that Intel and others had no interest in this shit whatsoever prior to the OLPC project (at which point Intel realised there was a metric fuck-ton of profit to be made of the destitude children of the third world). You got one thing right...there's no failure of capitalism here. It's working as well as it always does.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Wavicle]

Meanwhile, they were still building and promoting the Classmate the whole time.

Is there ANYTHING wrong with that? Classmate is a more powerful and more expensive system than XO. It is a better fit for older kids and it simply has more computing potential. There simply isn't going to be one, and only one, machine for every child not in a wealthy developed country.

So before you go mouthing off about how OLPC is the one keeping laptops out of the hands of children, keep in mind all of what I said so far and then keep in mind that these kids were getting ZERO laptops prior to Negroponte's efforts and that Intel and others had no interest in this shit whatsoever prior to the OLPC project (at which point Intel realised there was a metric fuck-ton of profit to be made of the destitude children of the third world).

First, that is a load of shit. What makes Negroponte different is that he was vocal about it. Everybody had interest, but there was no practical way to deliver the product. Remember, they were mouthing off about a $100 laptop. That didn't materialize. The laptop is $200 with a high rate of failure.

Second, you make it sound like if Negroponte had started this 10 years earlier, third world kids would have had machines 10 years earlier. The most important factors of this whole "laptops for kids" thing are the price of components and the purchasing power of the countries involved. So while you think, unfounded, that nobody took notice of the market until Negroponte, the truth is somewhat more economical: all these companies were doing studies on these emerging markets and realized the price point at which one could profitably sell a system at, and what these places could pay, had not yet reached parity. We are at the early cusp of when the price at which a laptop can be made reaches the price at what can be afforded.

There was much saber rattling about a $100 laptop to which the "big guys" scoffed at. Why? Because they knew that the component price alone would exceed that cost. The price will EVENTUALLY get to that point, at which point you're going to say "see you were wrong!" As anyone who bought an IBM PC 5150 for $8000 can tell you, cost goes down over time.

You got one thing right...there's no failure of capitalism here. It's working as well as it always does.

Yes. Intel used its free market right to leave an idiotic organization that is more obsessed with being the only solution than with getting systems into the hands of the world's poor. Seriously, why would OLPC care if Intel was working with ASUS?

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[ahabswhale]

Meanwhile, they were still building and promoting the Classmate the whole time.

Is there ANYTHING wrong with that? Classmate is a more powerful and more expensive system than XO. It is a better fit for older kids and it simply has more computing potential. There simply isn't going to be one, and only one, machine for every child not in a wealthy developed country.

So before you go mouthing off about how OLPC is the one keeping laptops out of the hands of children, keep in mind all of what I said so far and then keep in mind that these kids were getting ZERO laptops prior to Negroponte's efforts and that Intel and others had no interest in this shit whatsoever prior to the OLPC project (at which point Intel realised there was a metric fuck-ton of profit to be made of the destitude children of the third world).

First, that is a load of shit. What makes Negroponte different is that he was vocal about it. Everybody had interest, but there was no practical way to deliver the product. Remember, they were mouthing off about a $100 laptop. That didn't materialize. The laptop is $200 with a high rate of failure.

Second, you make it sound like if Negroponte had started this 10 years earlier, third world kids would have had machines 10 years earlier. The most important factors of this whole "laptops for kids" thing are the price of components and the purchasing power of the countries involved. So while you think, unfounded, that nobody took notice of the market until Negroponte, the truth is somewhat more economical: all these companies were doing studies on these emerging markets and realized the price point at which one could profitably sell a system at, and what these places could pay, had not yet reached parity. We are at the early cusp of when the price at which a laptop can be made reaches the price at what can be afforded.

There was much saber rattling about a $100 laptop to which the "big guys" scoffed at. Why? Because they knew that the component price alone would exceed that cost. The price will EVENTUALLY get to that point, at which point you're going to say "see you were wrong!" As anyone who bought an IBM PC 5150 for $8000 can tell you, cost goes down over time.

You got one thing right...there's no failure of capitalism here. It's working as well as it always does.

Yes. Intel used its free market right to leave an idiotic organization that is more obsessed with being the only solution than with getting systems into the hands of the world's poor. Seriously, why would OLPC care if Intel was working with ASUS? You must be kidding. Classmate is more expensive and more powerful which is what older kids need...are you fucking kidding me? These kids have never seen a fucking computer and now you're telling me they need one more powerful than the OLPC. Uh, ok maybe that's the way things work in bizzaro world. As for everybody having interest...they had interest but did NOTHING until he started this. You can come up with whatever excuse you want but the fact is that he got the ball rolling. Intel didn't care until they realised they had a marketshare issue to contend with. So please spare me the cost of parts bullshit. The cost was a HUGE factor for the OLPC because the OLPC has tech that these other laptops don't (like viewability in daylight). Nice try though. As for an idiotic organization more obsessed with being the only solution...that's not true. Negroponte is pissed because he started something that nobody else had done and then the big corps suddenly realised the profit issues at stake and decided to piss on his cornflakes. This guy put his whole life into this so I'd say he has a right to be pretty fucking pissed off. It's about money for them but not for him. Intel and Msft don't give a flying fuck about kids who can't read and use computers -- he does.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[mrchaotica]

Is there ANYTHING wrong with that?

Yes! Intel wants to displace sales of the XO with that of the ClassmatePC, and the Classmate PC doesn't have any of the benefits of the XO.

It is a better fit for older kids and it simply has more computing potential.

But it's still an inferior solution. Here's why:

1. The Classmate PC doesn't run Sugar, the XO's UI. Instead, it runs Windows. Sugar was designed from the ground up to be used by children; Windows wasn't. Sugar has collaborative learning tools (e.g. multi-user whiteboarding, IM preconfigured to connect students to each other (as opposed to the Internet in general), automatic mesh networking), Windows doesn't.
2. The XO has Squeak and LOGO, the two best pieces of educational software ever created. The Classmate PC has MS Office instead, a piece of software that's fucking useless for kids.
3. The XO has a daylight-readable screen. This means it's not only good for the stereotypical kids living in mud huts with no school building, but also that it's good for comparatively well-off students on field trips (e.g. "go outside and study particular plants" or something). The Classmate PC is only useful inside.
4. The XO has much better battery life than the Classmate PC
5. The Classmate PC has a TPM. What the fuck would students need that for?! No good can possibly come of it.
6. And last, but certainly not least, the XO is based on a Free Software system, explicitly designed to be modifiable by the students themselves (e.g. in Squeak, every UI widget has a context-menu item that literally says "open me in the class browser" which allows the user to modify the Smalltalk code for the widget and see the effects in real time as the code is re-processed by the interpreter). In contrast, the Classmate PC is closed-source, locked-down with "teacher and parent controls," and serves only to indoctrinate the students to the Microsoft hegemony.

In other words, the XO is capable of teaching students to learn independently, while the Classmate PC is only good for teaching them to run 419 scams and make inane, useless PowerPoint presentations!

P.S.: Having a marginally faster processor doesn't cause the Classmate PC to have more "computing potential!" When I was in elementary school, I used computers such as Apple IIs and 68k Macs. By high school, everything had switched to Windows-based PCs. But you know what? The stuff from elementary school was better, because it had better software (and I'm not talking about the OS). In elementary school, I learned arithmetic with Number Munchers, geometry and imperative programming with LOGO, made GUI applications with Hypercard, etc. In high school, the only computer-related class available was a glorified typing class, using MS Word. Aside from pretty fonts, everything in that class could have been accomplished by a fucking IBM Selectric! Oh yeah, and we "progressed" from Hypercard stacks to (linear) PowerPoint slideshows. And that's the sort of utter fucking bullshit that Intel is trying to "accomplish" with the Classmate PC!

I would have killed (figuratively) to have had access to Squeak when I was little. And Intel wants to take that away?! The Intel execs should be shot (literally)!

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[yariv]

OLPC isn't about cheap laptops, it's about open laptops. A child can learn a lot more from an XO then classmate, simply because in XO you can see what's going on. What you get is children who learn to think as engineers (from software, but the point is the way you think, you can apply it to anything), which is probably the best way to build an economy.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[SeePage87]

You're completely right on all counts (though I'd argue the cheap part is also important). I think OLPC is wonderful and the XO is crazy awesome. I just don't think Intel's actions could be called Capitalism failing, or unjustified (on most levels).

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Wavicle]

So please spare me the cost of parts bullshit

Tell you what. I'll spare you the cost of parts bullshit if you answer one question:

Where is the $100 laptop?

Put up or shut up.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Wavicle]

The Classmate PC doesn't run Sugar, the XO's UI. Instead, it runs Windows.

Hey don't let the facts get in the way of your religion. My apologies if that makes 3/4 of your comment an uninformed rant.

The rest of your comment is similar nonsense. Either untrue, unfounded speculation, personal bias or nostalgic mis-remembering.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel sucks, really showing an evil side in this. As someone who spends millions a year on Intel gear, I promise not to buy anymore.

And the PR person who is trying to support Intel as a good thing for capitalism is an idiot. Intel and Microsoft are ripping off the OLPC and the childern that they are trying to help. Both of these companies have the money and power to solve this problem, and have had years to help. Both only want to block the OLPC not because there is money to be made from these children, but because the reach of the OLPC will eventually take marketshare from Intel and Microsoft. So this is not about the best laptop for childern, this is about the best way to protect Intel and Microsoft's coffers.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[HornWumpus]

The GP is confused about the difference between the government taking over business (like in fascism) and business taking over government (Corporatism).

He's likely in denial as his favorite political philosophy involves government taking over business (just guessing he's red or watermelon). He's been told National Socialism wasn't 'real socialism' so often he believes it.

Par for the course on /. watch the Parent post get modded down.

BTW Pure capitalism 'fails' around economic externalities and monopolies (purists would claim monopolies only exist for long when government props them up).

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[ahabswhale]

There is no $100 laptop. He made the laptop as cheap as he could with the features it HAD to have. What that has to do with this argument is beyond me.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Wavicle]

When he started this he said "$100 laptop" when "they" knew the components would cost $400. That is why "they" derided him. Not because they weren't looking at emerging markets, but because "they" knew the emerging market couldn't afford over $400 per laptop.

As time went, the cost, primarily the cost of flash, started coming down until the component cost was around $200. *Then* they could produce a laptop for the emerging market. It was a matter of market timing and would have happened with or without some egotistical loudmouth who wants the poor kids to use his product exclusively. If he poured his whole life (a laughable assertion) into this, I'm sorry.

You give OLPC all the credit because "he" started talking about it when it was impossible. When it finally became possible (after many delays), you attempt to give him all the credit. Well, sorry, the only truly interesting piece of technology on OLPC is the screen. And the inventor of that just left them.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[mrchaotica]

The Classmate PC can run Linux, in exactly the same way every PC can run Linux. In reality, however, almost every organization actually buying the thing is going to run Windows on it!

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[ahabswhale]

So now I'm to believe that giant corporations like Intel lagged behind the likes of Negroponte and his all-volunteer staff because, they, of all people, couldn't produce the laptops at low enough price? Hmm, well, the Classmate is STILL more expensive and still lacking in some of the capabilities of the OLPC. Please, you live in a fantasy world if you think a corp with Intel's resources couldn't beat a nut like Negroponte to market by a large margin. Also, your argument about it was just a matter of time before someone produced something like the OLPC and therefore Negroponte meant nothing is pretty lame considering you could say this about any endeavor or activity. It's all just a matter of time, right? So is fucking anti-gravity. The truth is that someone has to be the one to make it happen once. It's much easier for the followers to ride the coattails of the first guy. Finally, you seem to derride him for the delays in releasing the product...as if that NEVER happens with every other fucking tech company product in the world. I don't know what your malfunction is, but you have an extreme bias against Negroponte/OLPC for some reason. Do you work for Intel? I have no steak in this fight. I don't even really give a shit about giving laptops to kids who will always remain the fucked over people of the world even if they learn how to browse porn and use OpenOffice. There's reasons for that but it goes way beyond the bounds of this discussion.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Wavicle]

So now I'm to believe that giant corporations like Intel lagged behind the likes of Negroponte and his all-volunteer staff because, they, of all people, couldn't produce the laptops at low enough price?

You shouldn't believe that because it isn't what happened.

Also, your argument about it was just a matter of time before someone produced something like the OLPC and therefore Negroponte meant nothing is pretty lame considering you could say this about any endeavor or activity. It's all just a matter of time, right?

Except that there is some very real evidence to support the assertion that in the span of time between when OLPC was announced and when it was released two things happened: component prices dropped and the cost of the OLPC went up. To prop your argument up, you need to produce some evidence that a $200 laptop could have been produced when the $100 laptop was announced.

The truth is that someone has to be the one to make it happen once. It's much easier for the followers to ride the coattails of the first guy.

Utter tripe. Not to mention he didn't "make it happen" before others were starting their own production.

Finally, you seem to derride him for the delays in releasing the product...as if that NEVER happens with every other fucking tech company product in the world.

No, I deride him for announcing it when it could not be done. He knew, based on historical trends, that prices were falling to the point where the third world could soon afford laptops. He did, however, miscalculate the second derivative of the curve and didn't realize that prices do resist falling very very low. Which is why there is no $100 laptop.

I don't know what your malfunction is, but you have an extreme bias against Negroponte/OLPC for some reason.

For the same reason I have an extreme bias against Bill Gates/Microsoft. I don't like monopolies no matter how good their intention. The third world could only benefit if there were three players in the ultra-low cost laptop sector. So yeah, I have an issue when someone goes around whining "nobody but me in this market because I started talking to the press about it first." Also, I don't have a standing bias against any corporation just because they are large. Negroponte shouts that Intel was selling a hundred thousand Classmates below cost (he has no good evidence for this) but never mentions that Intel is one of the world's most philanthropic corporations and has been giving away hundreds of millions of dollars for education over the last many years.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Wavicle]

In reality, however, almost every organization actually buying the thing is going to run Windows on it!

Windows has 90+% worldwide market share for desktop operating system and 55% for servers.

Imagine you're the minister of education for a poor country. You want to bring some of the first world's wealth to your shores via education in technology. From a purely practical standpoint, which would you choose?

I'm sympathetic to the Linux cause. My first install was Slackware on kernel 0.99pl14. Up until 8 months ago I made my living writing device drivers and test software specifically for Linux. Any machine in my home which doesn't need to run Windows doesn't. And I'm not real happy with the way Microsoft works its pricing such that it costs $100 for an OEM license of Windows here but only $3 over there for Windows+Office.

But step back into the minister of education role. For a price increase of 1.5% your students can be learning on the same software that powers 100x as many systems as Linux. Which would you choose?

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[ahabswhale]

The GOAL was a $100 laptop. The fact he couldn't produce a viable product for that doesn't marginalize what he's trying to accomplish in any way. "Utter tripe. Not to mention he didn't "make it happen" before others were starting their own production." Prove it. I never heard ANYTHING from anyone about this. You're full of shit. "The third world could only benefit if there were three players in the ultra-low cost laptop sector." BS. This isn't a capatalism game with free market economics at play. This is about a guy who was attempting to produce a cheap laptop for CHARITY that had the potential to be distrubted to a large number of poor kids because of its price. In any event, what is most likely to happen at this point is that the OLPC will go the way of the dinosaur within the next two years and Intel will be the only provider of this category of laptops. So you're going to get your monopoly anyway. Finally, you haven't provided any evidence of any of the things you said, so I won't either. I still think you're an Intel employee.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Anonymous Coward]

I would hope that the Minister of Education isn't looking at "are my children compatible with western world" because almost nothing else in his country is. I would hope that the Minister of Education is thinking "will my children learn substantially more and be able to think and tinker in ways that are impossible with other solutions"

Quick little story. My 12 year old daughter called me at work this week to ask how to kill a copy of Firefox 3 Beta 2 running on my Fedora 8 box.
su, ps -ef | grep fox , kill the first/second column numbers ,,,, wait .... up arrow ( yes !ps would have worked too ) see if there were still some running,,,, kill -9 ....

versus. Ctrl-Alt-Del, taskmgr, find fire, end process.

Certainly the second one is faster. The first one she learned something. Ditto w/OLPC vs MS-Win

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Lproven]

This is bang on. Somebody mod that comment up!

However, while everyone's going on about Intel and its Classmate, they seem to be missing one rather important point. The Classmate design is going great guns; it's selling as fast as it can be made. Not under that name, though. Under an even sillier name: "EEE".

The Asus EEE PC is a Classmate, make a bit less robust, with a CPU with some secondary cache swapped in - but underclocked by a third - to make it a bit less of a performance dog. And EEEs are selling like the proverbial hot cakes.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[Antique Geekmeister]

The Classmate also doesn't have a Linux BIOS, which provides a lot of flexibility and a far, far, faster and battery saving boot and shutdown time.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[An Onerous Coward]

Do you also criticize game developers for starting their development cycle by targeting machines they expect to be common in three years, when they expect to release? Or should they do the honest thing and only talk about how their game would run on the machines of today?

Negroponte's targets weren't unreasonable. He couldn't have forseen the plummeting dollar. He probably should have figured that a lot of the handshake deals he'd made with foreign leaders would fall through, reducing sales volume and driving up the price per unit. But it was reasonable to assume that, given those predicted volumes, the OLPC would have actually reduced the costs of its own hardware.

Moore's law should have made the $100 laptop a reality by 1993. I base this on the fact that, in 1985, my parents bought a 286 laptop for $2000. Five price-halvings at 1.5 years each, and there you go. But the market never asked for $100 laptops. The people demanding laptops at that time wanted ever more powerful machines in the $2000-$4000 range, so improvements in miniaturization led to advances in capability, not affordability. If chip makers were committed to building the chips in that 1985 laptop using today's tech, the relevant parts might cost a buck. These days there is more computing power in a Tickle-Me Elmo.

Cost of "a computer" has fallen much more slowly than the cost of any given model should predict, because manufacturers stopped producing older parts in large quantities, and relegated those parts to older fabs. So I think it's crap to say that Negroponte was just taking advantage of underlying trends. Some form of the OLPC has been conceivable for a very long time now. Somebody just had to make the huge demand for functional, low-cost hardware apparent (that "someone" being the world of cell phone and other portable devices, not Negroponte).

It's also notable that one of the jumps in the expected cost of the XO came with the addition of a couple of new features (including the integrated camera). Without those features, the stripped down version would probably cost around $150.

It's hard for me to understand the people who claim that Negroponte should be happy at the success of the Classmate. The goal was never to get "a laptop" into the hands of each child. The OLPC was designed from the ground up not as a "cheap laptop." The Classmate was, which I consider to be its biggest failing. Apparently Intel's concept was to build the cheapest possible machine that could run Windows and Office.

XO, by comparison, was designed from the ground up to be rugged, low power, useful even without access to the wider Internet, collaborative, human-chargeable, and child friendly. Yet it's got all the power of a full-fledged Linux distro under the hood, and it comes with everything a kid would need to write applications that run on it. As a cheap laptop, I'm sure that the two are running neck in neck. As an educational tool, the XO blows the Classmate away, even at the $200 price point (which is still far cheaper than the Classmate).

When Intel tries to take sales away from OLPC, I think they're doing a disservice to kids. While I don't consider them 'evil' in any sense, Intel has a very different -- and I believe, inferior -- vision of education in developing countries.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[mrchaotica]

But step back into the minister of education role. For a price increase of 1.5% your students can be learning on the same software that powers 100x as many systems as Linux. Which would you choose?

So you're agreeing with me, that they'd pick Windows? Then, uh, what was your point?

To recap, I was explaining that the Classmate PC was inferior to the XO for several reasons, but mostly because it didn't have the XO's special (coincidentally Linux-based) software. You appeared to attempt to refute that by noting that the Classmate PC is capable of running Linux, but now just agreed with me that it would be extremely unlikely to be actually doing so in the wild. So are you conceding my point, or what?

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[mrchaotica]

Psst... `killall firefox-bin`.

Re:Abso-fuckin-lutely

[GnarlyDoug]

Some nice innuendo and name-calling from you guys. You had some good points to make much as I hate to admit it, and I had some good responses to some of them and would have had to agree with some others. However I'm not going to bother posting these responses because polite discourse is beyond your ken. That you attack me for being par for the course on ./ is rather funny, given your own atrocious attitudes.

Re:OLPC not a success

[mi]

2 months they sold enormous count of boxes.

According to GP-posting, they sold only 50000 boxes. Even if the profit-margin was a whopping $100 on each, that's only $5mln — or barely enough to pay decent salaries/bonuses to top 10 executives for one year. The more likely margin was, of course, in single-digits (10 times less), and the people involved were in it for much more longer than one year...

Could be this continued? Definitely. They just need resources to manage that. [emphasis mine -mi]

Right. A famous excuse for every failing idea.

How it will end, depends not only on OLPC team, but more or less insight in governments around the world.

Excellent. Tax the citizens, milk the donors — a Socialist's dream.

Boo Hoo

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel couldn't dominate the OLPC project, so they took their ball and went home. Boo Hoo. Guess what? Intel isn't necessary. Chow.

Ultimately, I think it's better for everybody (except the would-be monopolists) if there are competing low-cost implementations. This is good news.

Capitalism

[WED Fan]

What confuses me is that the OLPC association is ADAMANT about not offering their product commercially. This makes no sense.

The great thing about capitalism is that it allows us to run commercial for-profit businesses that provide capital that can in turn be used for non-profit purposes. By selling OLPC commercially and for profit, money could be raised to send them to communities that need them. However, I think the test for "need" should include that food, housing, health, and infrastructure needs are met (again, with money from other capitalist sources).

Think of the children!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Or, y'know, don't...

Re:OLPC == Scam

[Anonymous Coward]

Your are dishonest. The Salvation Army "discriminates" against "gays" in the same way that the Red Cross and the NHS in the UK discriminates. Salvation Army employees are often asked to be the first to give blood during disasters and emergencies. Unfortunately, because of AIDS HIV, homosexuals are disqualified from giving blood because of their "lifestyle choices".

A homosexual would be a poor fit for the needs of the Salvation Army, for very practical reasons. But then again so would a blind bus driver for your urban transit system, for practical reasons. In any case, the Salvation Army gives aid and comfort to all who are need, and it doesn't matter what color you are, or if you are "gay" or straight. If you are a "gay" person in need, by all means ask the Salvation Army for assistance. They most certainly would help you, no questions asked.

Intel usually pretty smart

[Gothmolly]

Is this confirmation that the whole OLPC thing is a bad idea?

Egos and Elitism = Fail

[grapeape]

The problem I see with the OLPC initiative is that they are restricting themselves into near certain failure. The Asus Eee has shown that there is a decent market for a product like OLPC offers, mass production would just bring the costs down. Competition in the form of Classmate and other similar products would benefit the goals of OLPC as technology could have funneled down to it. The B2G1 program was a good start but even that was limited by country and time making it a near pointless effort. What could have perpetually funded the program ended up being a token at best and an eBay scam at worst.

OLPC already started on a shaky support base, many felt that other issues such as the educational systems themselves had more importance than providing laptops. It sounds to me like the people running OLPC are more concerned with their positions within the program than the actual implementation of the program itself. If their real goal is improving education and opportunity to developing nations why should it matter if there were more players involved?

Re:Egos and Elitism = Fail

[aim2future]

If their real goal is improving education and opportunity to developing nations why should it matter if there were more players involved?

To have more than one player inolved is certainly not the problem, but having a player that can come in conflict with their own commercial intersts I can't see as secure and beneficial for the project. Even though Intel may have the best intentions there may arise internal conflicts. And, there are certainly other actors being intersted in wiping out the OLPC project, like Microsoft, as the Classmate even runs XP. I think it would be very bad for the future if the OLPC would be based upon a proprietary operative system. There are also very important features in the OLPC like the Mesh routing (something I considered an essential feature in this type of computers in a school paper I wrote 1987) that could get lost if proprietary interests would get too much influence.

If I were in control of the OLPC project I would have stated the same requirements and therefore I consider that the OLPC board did the right thing. When mixing commercial interests with idealistic goals one have to be very careful.

MOD PARENT UP, informative

[dpbsmith]

Interesting... I've owned Macs since 1984 but haven't paid much attention to what they were doing in educational space. Except to admire the charcoal -grey Bell and Howell Apple ]['s my son used in elementary school, of course...

OLPC can't be a success

[mi]

I do see a problem with the OLPC process apparently not working out

It could not be working out for the same reasons, these guys failed — they are/were trying to work against a fundamental law of nature.

Steorn tried to violate the laws of Thermodynamics. OLPC is trying to compete for talent with the vibrant economy, that offers enormous rewards to hardworking smart people...

Yes, a project can capture such people's time and attention by appealing to their charitable side. And they will work for non-monetary rewards such as fame and/or pleasure derived from doing a (seemingly, at least) good deed.

But such interest can not be sustained for very long. The novelty wears off, and the internal conflicts cool people's enthusiasm and make them ask questions like: "Do I need this shit?"

The group of wild-eyed and bushy-tailed enthusiasts begins loosing members — including (possibly — beginning with) the brightest ones... And "cadres decide everything" — even more so today, than when the quote was uttered.

Nor is the stated goal of OLPC entirely convincing. Surely, the connectivity and the instant access to the vast amount of information are very appealing and should be very helpful. But wanting to learn, and knowing how to learn are even more important for a child (and an adult) than the actual knowledge of anything in particular. Plenty of kids, who already have computers, use them to exchange pictures/music, and chat with friends — not to learn anything...

At the same time plenty of people, who grew up without a computer (much less Internet), are happy and active users of them now.

If you wish to help the poor, take care of yourself first — and gain the life experience to understand, what kind of help helps, and what kind spoils. Warren Buffet, Bill Gates, and Muhammad Yunus can be your examples...

Such a shame

[LagosPortugal.info]

Such a shame I had great hopes for all the possible open source software that might emerge from the 3rd world countrys. Personally I think this is a huge blow to the community, all the endless possibilities that could have come from young people using this hardware in the 3rd world just makes me feel sad ..... Hopefully the project will continue.

Having used one...

[Anonymous Coward]

...it sucks. Verily.

After all the hype and delay I was expecting something much better.

The keyboard is unusable. Maybe it works for kid-fingers, but don't expect any third-worlders to be cranking out code on these.

No development tools. Obviously, as there isn't disk space for such things. Again, no third-worlder will be coding on these.

Speed. Bad. No nukes will be designed with these babies.

Wireless. Hopeless. It doesn't support a simple WPA connection out-of-the-box. Maybe there's something to the mesh idea, but without a flock of them, it's difficult to experiment.

Boot time. Horrible. I've no idea how they made it so slow. I was expecting the custom BIOS to speed things up more than this.

Screen. OK. It's kind of interesting the way it can shift from color to monochrome.

Design. Toy-like. Yes, it's meant for children, but this pre-school look is dorky.

Sorry to be so negative, but a cheap cell phone could compete with this as far as functionality goes.

Re:Having used one...

[Anonymous Coward]

You aren't the target market so it sucks for you. Get over yourself lamer.

No, it's all about Negroponte's ego

[elrous0]

He made it pretty clear in that 60 Minutes interview that it's not about putting a laptop in the hands of every child, it's about *Nicholas Negroponte* putting *Nicholas Negroponte's* laptop in the hands of every child. It's his wedding and no one else is supposed to wear a prettier dress.

It's not about helping kids, it's about Nicholas Negroponte patting himself on the back and making himself out as a hero.

Re:No, it's all about Negroponte's ego

[Locutus]

WTF? Do think for one minute Microsoft and Intel care about educating the poor around the world? For crying out loud, these clowns only stuck their dirty hands into this once they saw that it could threaten their profits. Both Microsoft and Intel publicly attacked the OLPC project before, during and after they came up with their own project to kill this one off. And be sure, if OLPC were to close shop today, Microsoft and Intel's project would be closed down if there were no competition for it.

These two companies are purely reactionary to any efforts to bring in expensive hardware and software to the market and there is plenty of proof of this already out there.

And sure, Nicholas Negroponte should feel good about attempting to do some good. WTF is wrong with that? Didn't you read the story of his years of visiting a poor village and attempting to find ways to help them help themselves? Where's Microsfts history of this? Where is Intel's history of this? All we see from these clowns is constant attacks on projects which just so happen to be better fit to leverage Linux and OSS as opposed to Microsoft Windows and their proprietary software.

So get real, this is about a guy attempting to use a technology based tool to improve some peoples lives or the lives if their kids. It is also a story of how these efforts are being countered by financial bohemoths because they could be a threat to their future profits. And when I say countered, I mean they are spending millions to fight this project and using every trick in the book.

It will surely end up being evaluated for how corporate greed tangles with those intended to help people via non-profit organizations or other means. IMO.

And if Bill Gates, Microsoft and Intel think the OLPC project is so stupid an idea, why don't they just let it go and watch it fail instead of putting together a device which doesn't even match 1/2 of the design goals of the XO. Why does Microsoft have to go out and subsidize the replacement of Linux and OSS on 10's of thousands of ClassmatePC's sold to Nigeria such that Windows and Microsoft software was to be installed AFTER the purchase of the laptops containing Linux and OSS? Why does Microsoft have to react to a Thaiwanese program which hand Linux and OSS on very cheap HP Laptops and subsidize crippled Windows and Microsoft software on those devices? It is about their greed and desire to oppose any any project which is not based on their products and has nothing to do with helping anybody but their own world class livestyles. Give me a break.

LoB

LoB

I have one of these...

[hajo]

Was one of the first to get one. Comments:
It is low powered; booting up takes a while; loading rpograms takes a while. Once up and running it's fine.
I don't like the window manager; The frame that pops up is annoying. I would do a skinny drop down of running apps when hitting the top-left corner, a list of available apps at top right corner etc... or something like that
I HATE the journal as a file manager. This is the first 'activity' that needs to be replaced.
The programming games are fun. My kids LOVE the logo like activity the best.
Some of the software doesn't play well together.
The documentation that comes with it is dramatically subpar. You really need to go to their faq to make any use of the machine. One of the issues with that is that some of the faq info (particularly abvout commecting to a network is not available to you before you are online...)
(At least include a pdf with the latest version of the wiki and faq on it.)
The battery life is very good. (This is before an expected update of the system software; particularly power saving features) early 2008)
It is rugged; wifi reception is better than my Macbbok pro. Too bad you can't connect a cantenna easily that way one of these could bridge a few miles and the rest of the laptops could mesh network with it.
I bought the laptop to do some good and mess around with it.
I'll probably use this laptop on my boat (Will compare it to my toughbook; It's definitely a lot lighter!)
Over all I think it's a success.

Hajo

Re:I have one of these...

[dpbsmith]

I agree with all of your judgments, and am relieved to see I'm not alone.

The UI is not awful, and is good enough, and it was probably correct to think it through from scratch instead of trying to riff on the Alto/Star/Lisa/Mac/Windows. But it still tastes to me like other not-so-good UIs, in which the designer and people that can be coaxed into the same mindspace can be convinced that it's better than it is.

I read the human interface guidelines and I'm not convinced. I've often talked to people who have believed their UI was easy to use because "you always do thus-and-such to achieve this-and-that, and the frammises are always on the left edge, and you ferthboinder toward the top to glorp persistent quibinicks..."

One of the things that was fascinating about the Mac in 1984, which I approached with virtually no previous experience, was that you could intuit it and use it without ever formulating or deducing the consistent left-brained rules by which it operated. For about three days I used it effectively without understanding it at all. I wanted to achieve something, I took a wild guess as to what might work, and it usually did.

I don't feel that way about Sugar, although maybe my brain has just ossified.

If the Journal functioned the way it's supposed to, I don't understand why it, rather than the "home view," isn't the center of the user experience, and the thing you boot into. Seems to me that you'd more often be returning to an old activity than starting a new one.

I "get" the idea of a linear, chronological arrangement of activities rather than a hierarchical tree of documents, but I don't understand how you navigate that arrangement unless you are punctilious about giving each saved activity a good name, and clever at naming them in such a way that you can search for them by typing search strings (which I think only search the name of the journal entry, not the content of the saved activity).

Re:I have one of these...

[arb phd slp]

The Journal activity may be flawed from the start. The research that I've read suggests that preadolescent children don't conceptualize the world chronologically, at least not accurately enough that it should be the main organization structure for filing work. Although the Journal metaphor may be useful in that their most recent work is what they are most likely to want to go back to at any given moment.

Seriously? Details...

[dpbsmith]

I'm glad to hear this. I don't want to press you on this, but just how literally true is it that you didn't give them any instruction? Are you sure you didn't give them a hint or a tip from time to time... or go online into the OLPC site to their user's guide in order to figure out the Journal, Neighborhood, Home keys did and stuff like that?

I interpret what you said to mean that they were able to guess or discover the meaning of the icons for the browser, word processor and start using them without help.

I also interpret this to mean that they have not mastered the Journal, which is one of the UI elements I find troublesome. I don't object in principle to organizing things by activity and time and linearly, rather than in the now-traditional filesystem hierarchy, but apparently in order to get back to the stuff you've worked on you need to a) remember to give it a good name and b) type a good search string in the Journal.

which is it, free or at-cost?

[SuperBanana]

Several of the world's most important tech companies, and lots of talented people, work for free at cost on the OLPC.

Huh? It's either one or the other- free, or at cost. "At cost" isn't "free". Which is it?

Re:which is it, free or at-cost?

[Marcion]

Sorry it is bad typing, should have been "free or at cost".

Re:OLPC not a success

[Pecisk]

According to news, 150 000 would be more correct number.

But nice try buddy to paint everyone who wants to solve world problems without involving big fat corporations a Socialist. As Linus said, that if Socialist means to do good things to people, then yeah, we are Socialists.

Attention Modders! Mod Parent Up!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent up!

Just saw one today - disappointed

[peter303]

It screams "toy" all over, like PC Jr.
The functionality is similar to iPod Touch at 2/3rds the price. If Apple puts this in a larger screen, say an iTablet Touch- that could be a competitor.

Re:Just saw one today - disappointed

[Anonymous Coward]

Posting as an AC becuase I'm an IBM employee.

In all fairness the PC Jr. didn't scream "toy". It just screamed and then died.

Re:Just saw one today - disappointed

[repetty]

Think this through....

You propose giving poor African, South American, and Asian kids big beautiful glass and polished stainless steel laptops and then send them walking home from school -- maybe a three to five mile walk?

They'd get fucking killed. They'd get mugged and every one of those things would be stolen.

It's for kids. Little kids. It should look like it for no other reason than to just keeping these kids safer.

--Richard

Re:Just saw one today - disappointed

[moosesocks]

You propose giving poor African, South American, and Asian kids big beautiful glass and polished stainless steel laptops and then send them walking home from school -- maybe a three to five mile walk?

They'd get fucking killed. They'd get mugged and every one of those things would be stolen.

Crime is a problem in developing nations, but what exactly makes you think that they're teeming with thugs from top to bottom?

On the other hand, if the OLPC does everything that its proponents claim it will, it'd be just as valuable to a thief as a shiny stainless steel laptop.

What the GP was hinting at is that there's a distinct difference between a "toy" and a "tool". Something tells me that the OLPC is the former, rather than the latter.

I like the overall trend though...

[ghostis]

I like the trend of OLPC, EEE PC, Nokia 810, and the Linux BIOS motherboards. Linux w/ OSS application stacks like Firefox/Google, OpenOffice, firewall suites (e.g. WRT54GL) etc., have advanced to the point where hardware manufacturers can ship fully functional hardware without having to buy, or worse, making the consumer buy, an OS and application stack. Making lesser hardware functional has always been a strong point of Linux (I can still use my Thinkpad 600x due to Xubuntu), so while Microsoft swells its software so that Windows based UMPCs cost almost a grand new, I see an entirely new, rapidly emerging, market of cheap, lightweight, Linux powered, highly functional devices - if only because it's much cheaper for hardware manufacturers, if they reduce their software costs. Nokia, Asus, OLPC, and Linksys are early players in this market, but I suspect, more hardware producers will follow.

-Adam

Exposing students?

[Dr. Cody]

School's closed because of AIDS

Re:Exposing students?

[Ced_Ex]

YIPPEE!!! It's an AIDS day... time off to go sledding!

Re:OLPC not a success

[sumdumass]

You do understand the difference in doing good things and taxing people or somehow demanding a payment from them and then doing what you think is a good thing right?

There is a problem with counties spending the citizens money for what you perceive as a good thing verses you spending your own money on what you perceive as a good thing. The Linus quote was addressing how he cares little about the names being thrown out. Not that he endorses socialism. I'm not aware of any time Linus took tax payer money as a condition of giving Linux away.

Please don't confuse the subject or act like you don't know the difference. You doing something with your own money is noble. You forcing a nation to do the same thing by collecting taxes under the presumption of pain of imprisonment is somewhat a bad thing. Not always but outside of Fire, Safe drinking water and effective security, you know, basic governmental infrastructure, it is generally not good.

We have to focus on the roots of the problem.

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

Here is their reasoning:

Kids in Africa Doesn't have computers or electricity => Give them crappy computers that has their own generator.

I have a better idea: Make the IMF and the World Bank forgive the illegal debt they are claiming from this countries (Since most of those debts were contracted by dictatorships), Make the USA stop creating "wars" to try to jeopardize the political stability of those countries to be able to get advantage of their natural resources and cheap work, stop secretly funding terrorist organizations, and stop attacking every government that tries to do something for their people (For example, Stop the media operations against Chavez[Venezuela], against Evo Morales [Bolivia], Against Kirchner [Argentina], Stop helping Colombia's President to create more tension with the FARC, Stop the embargo con Cuba, etc, etc.). Just stay INSIDE your frontiers, you are not the world's police. Wait 20 Years.
We will see all this countries raise, and develop solid economies. They have the natural resources, they have the people, and they are not afraid of working hard like North Americans or Europeans. Stop messing with them for 20 years, and you will see a United South America developing an economy BIGGER than the EU.

There is no need for free laptops, all this countries need is the chance to grow up, to be free, and they will develop the resource required to have their own computers. A House, Public Health, Electricity, Water, and an Independent Government are much bigger priorities than stupid laptops.

Yea, right!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Like OLPC or anybody else could *make* Intel do anything it didn't want to do. How about there is little profit in the biz, would that do it?

OLPC blows

[jgarra23]

This is not a troll. Hate having to preface things with that because mods here are so reactionary (but that's a different topic now!)...

There are some huge issues with the OLPC project. I'd say about 90% of the issues are misrepresented by people's agendas in this thread (read:anti-capitalists, AMD fanbois, Intel fanbois, etc...).

The problems are that:
-the organization is poorly run
-the officers are greedy
-the commercials to get you to donate suck
-the laptops are *NOT* being used as intended (well duh, come on!)
-the product looks like a toy
-false ideals are being used to further various agendas
-Microsoft wants a piece of the pie of course

The people who turned something which could be a good idea, could be altruistic, could make some changes in the world have actually created an unhealthy political baby which is being used by all sorts of uncouth individuals at all points and I'm not surprised Intel resigned. I won't donate to the United Way for the same reasons. The charity sucks and I'm better off giving cash to bums who would rather buy beer and cocaine than clothing and food.

Wake me up when the bullshit reasons stop.

Re:OLPC blows

[Anonymous Coward]

I would like to remind everyone who is complaining about the xo-1 looking like a toy that the target user of the computer is *drumroll* young kids. It is supposed to look like a toy. It is meant to be played with.

Re:OLPC blows

[Anonymous Coward]

Yep. The whole project is misguided. Wait? Did I actually say that? Am I actually saying that this project is stealing from the poor it is supposedly helping and it only benefits the people behind it? (Not monetarily you assholes, but in name. Renown is worth more than money. Who would not want to be viewed as a saviour without actually having to save anyone? I would love to. I really would.

OLPC sucks. It is not "good" (ethically it is most likely "bad"--it is not neutral as it is creating garbage and waste; and it is using resources that are better allocated elsewhere.) It does not help anyone. It is a bunch of stupid arrogant westerners deciding that what the children of the world need is their own shitty "laptop."

Then they will be able to learn all sorts of shit and the "third world" will melt away and we will all be living in Futurama (the show or the exhibit; it does not really matter.)

Of course the people doing this take the moral high ground and use their positions as self-appointed moral superiors to tell those of us who see how stupid this is that we are wrong and we are standing in the way of progress.

Funnel the money of poor governments to underpowered toys that can show porn and the people will become educated and poverty will be a thing of the past.

Anyone who disagrees must be wrong. They are asshole capitalists looking to make a quick buck (though I guess it is not surprising that this shit is being sold to governments and not individuals; governments buy into shit. Taking advantage of people for one's own benefit. Capitalism at its finest. Oh, wait, no. OLPC is not taking advantage, no sir.) They are against "leveling the playing field" because they are racist or nationalist or something else.

I too wish people could just sit back for a second and look at what this is: it is the arrogant west telling the rest of the world how to achieve progress--that is how to be western. It has happened before. Pushing infant formula on poor nations for their benefit. Same type of shit. "We" know better than "them." "They"--the "other"--can only live in "our" way.

I love how people use their arrogance as rationale for deciding what people halfway 'round the world should do. I think it is really interesting. Humans are so arrogant. Even when dealing with other humans. Everyone always knows how everyone else should be living their lives.

Fuck it. We will do what we can do. We do not want to be forced to see actual problems and think of actual solutions so we send a toy to placate ourselves and amuse those in a shitty situation. It makes us feel better without actually doing anything. And is not making us feel better the real goal here?

Re:OLPC blows

[jgarra23]

Who modded parent down? Mod up! That is spot-on!

No non-disclosure agreements?

[penguin_dance]

Were they that stupid that they didn't make the CTO and anyone else involved sign some sort of non-disclosure agreement to keep them from taking their research with them?

IANAL, but this is business 101--even with a non-profit, you don't want techonolgy created under your company to be and sold to someone else and possibly patented by others. This alone could cause you to lose the use of your product.

a blow to OLPC?

[Locutus]

This is the same Intel that was going around the world spread FUD about the OLPC project and targetting OLPC customers. Their marketing was more smoke and mirrors than based on reality and the whole ClassmatePC project was started as competition to OLPC. Wow, that's a company we should all just love when they do an about-face and join the OLPC board.

IMO, the only blow to OLPC is that they'll start with the FUD again since I don't think OLPC really needs Intel's chips.

And the CTO leaving to start her own commercial business around the OLPC LCD tech is not a blow either. She helped them get to where they are today and that is in production baby. The OLPC project is not going to follow the Microsoft Windows business model of replacement every 2 or so years and probably has a good 5 years life in the current design. Why do they need her position/experience any more when keeping startup costs low is the goal now. Especially since Intel and Microsoft have both helped delay orders and therefore income. OLPC needs to be lean and mean IMO.

Anybody reading this as bad news is just helping spread FUD about the project. IMO.

LoB

Having not used one...

[SanityInAnarchy]

I have to ask:

The keyboard is unusable. Maybe it works for kid-fingers, but don't expect any third-worlders to be cranking out code on these.

You're assuming kid-fingers won't be cranking out code.

No development tools.

Except for a magic key which shows you the source of the current app, lets you modify it right there...

Speed. Bad. No nukes will be designed with these babies.

Define "bad". I'll bet nukes were designed on far less powerful machines. And what were you doing with it that needed speed?

Wireless. Hopeless. It doesn't support a simple WPA connection out-of-the-box. Maybe there's something to the mesh idea, but without a flock of them, it's difficult to experiment.

Well, you answered your own point there. It's not like there's going to be tons of WPA-secured wifi networks in Uganda for these kids to hook up to.

Boot time. Horrible.

I'll take your word for that.

Screen. OK. It's kind of interesting the way it can shift from color to monochrome.

And that monochrome has 3x the resolution. And that it's viewable in bright sunlight. Neither of those seemed impressive for you?

Design. Toy-like. Yes, it's meant for children, but this pre-school look is dorky.

So what?

Yes, design is what they'll be complaining about when they get the first computer that their village has ever seen.

Sorry to be so negative, but a cheap cell phone could compete with this as far as functionality goes.

A cheap cell phone would have a smaller screen, smaller keyboard, not necessarily have a cell tower to connect to, absolutely not have mesh networking, nor the magic "source view" button or the social networking stuff... And of course, when the cell battery dies, they'll just plug it in, right? (Hint: XO has hand cranks designed for it.)

Now, a cheap cell phone could be designed to be like this... but there's still the problem of it being too small, and if you make it bigger, guess what? You've got the XO.

So far, your one point that I can't really argue with is boot time, and really, why does that matter?

Sounds to me like you had high expectations for a laptop for yourself. I was actually amazed at how much more usable it is to the actual kids it's aimed at than I was expecting.

Re:Having not used one...

[Anonymous Coward]

>You're assuming kid-fingers won't be cranking out code.

Nope. They won't. Children don't produce much code. Once their mind is more developed to handle the abstract thought needed for programming, their hands will have long outgrown the keyboard.

>Except for a magic key which shows you the source of the current
>app, lets you modify it right there...

Right....magic key....give me one of those so I can crank out a new kernel more easily.

>Define "bad". I'll bet nukes were designed on far less powerful
>machines. And what were you doing with it that needed speed?

You'd bet wrong.

I'd bet they wished they had speed on their first-stage gentoo build. By the time it would finish, they would have outgrown the keyboard.

>Well, you answered your own point there. It's not like there's going to be
>tons of WPA-secured wifi networks in Uganda for these kids to hook up to.

After all, who needs the security, anyway? Big brother won't care at all.

>And that monochrome has 3x the resolution. And that it's viewable
>in bright sunlight. Neither of those seemed impressive for you?

No. Not really. Maybe back in the 20th century it would.

>>Design. Toy-like. Yes, it's meant for children, but
>>this pre-school look is dorky.
>
>So what?

So...it's dorky. It won't be taken seriously.

>Yes, design is what they'll be complaining about when they
>get the first computer that their village has ever seen.

Puh-leaze, Cracker. Are you really that bigoted to think these people have never seen a computer before? Many of these children are scavenging broken first-world electronics for the chips and wiring. They're not the strangers to tech you think they are.

>A cheap cell phone would have a smaller screen, smaller keyboard, not necessarily
>have a cell tower to connect to, absolutely not have mesh networking, nor the magic
>"source view" button or the social networking stuff... And of course, when the cell
>battery dies, they'll just plug it in, right? (Hint: XO has hand cranks designed for it.)

Mmmm...kay. You do realize that erecting a basic radio tower is pretty trivial, don't you? And patching it through to a first-world network wouldn't be difficult. And talking to people directly is one of the best forms of communication? It seems it would be a heck of a lot more useful than this toy.

Hint...there are all kinds of solar packs out their to charge a cell battery and other small electronic devices. There is no hand crank for the XO. That idea got dropped a long time ago for technical reasons. Sounds like you're not too up on your OLPC information.

>Now, a cheap cell phone could be designed to be like this... but
>there's still the problem of it being too small, and if you make
>it bigger, guess what? You've got the XO.

Guess what? If you shrink an XO, you get something with a fraction of the communication capabilities of cell phone! Lame.

>So far, your one point that I can't really argue with
>is boot time, and really, why does that matter?

It matters. A lot more than you might think.

>Sounds to me like you had high expectations for a laptop for yourself.

No. I had high expectations of what Negroponte was promising. Instead I found a toy that could have been designed by Leap Frog or Fischer-Price in a fraction of the time.

>I was actually amazed at how much more usable it is to the actual
>kids it's aimed at than I was expecting.

Sounds like you're expecting some really dull kids to use this thing.

Re:Having not used one...

[SanityInAnarchy]

Nope. They won't. Children don't produce much code. Once their mind is more developed to handle the abstract thought needed for programming, their hands will have long outgrown the keyboard.

Based on my experience with kids, you'd be surprised. (Although that may be true with the way the current American education system is.)

Right....magic key....give me one of those so I can crank out a new kernel more easily.

Would you prefer I call it a "special key", or a "function key" or something?

It is a "show the source" button. Every app on the machine comes with source code, so why wouldn't this work?

You'd bet wrong.

The Trinity Test was in 1945. They had more powerful computers than the OLPC in 1945??

I'd bet they wished they had speed on their first-stage gentoo build. By the time it would finish, they would have outgrown the keyboard.

Now I know you're trolling. A large part of the value of the XO is in its software, but of all the possible distros to replace it with, I think Gentoo is the worst choice.

After all, who needs the security, anyway? Big brother won't care at all.

You are missing the point: NO WIFI. Do you get it now?

There is not some Linksys router sitting in the middle of the fucking desert just waiting for an Afghan kid to walk by with a laptop.

No. Not really. Maybe back in the 20th century it would.

Considering it didn't exist then, and still isn't common now (even in your cell phone), you're being unreasonably cynical.

So...it's dorky. It won't be taken seriously.

It will, and it is.

Puh-leaze, Cracker. Are you really that bigoted to think these people have never seen a computer before?

Actually, I've been to Peru. Many of them have, and many of them have not. The most expensive piece of equipment I saw in the Lareys valley was a boom box.

But fine, let's be pedantic: First computer anyone in that village has ever owned, or had exclusive access to for more than an hour or so at a time.

Mmmm...kay. You do realize that erecting a basic radio tower is pretty trivial, don't you? And patching it through to a first-world network wouldn't be difficult.

So, where does the basic radio tower come from? Where does it get its power? How does it patch in to a first-world network, if there is one anywhere close by?

And talking to people directly is one of the best forms of communication? It seems it would be a heck of a lot more useful than this toy.

Let's see... I'll just tell the class to phone Wikipedia, and... Oh, what's that? Wikipedia is a website, full of text? Who'd have guessed?

And between a "powerful" phone with a tiny screen, glare issues, and a dead battery, and this "toy", I wonder which will be more useful for reading (and editing) webpages? Nevermind that it does pictures and video (not sure about voice).

There is no hand crank for the XO.

Yes there is, it's just not actually part of the laptop anymore.

Guess what? If you shrink an XO, you get something with a fraction of the communication capabilities of cell phone!

Partly because if you shrink it, you miss the point.

It matters. A lot more than you might think.

Let's see... Do I take your word on that? Or a Peruvian kid's?

Instead I found a toy that could have been designed by Leap Frog or Fischer-Price in a fraction of the time.

-1 Flamebait. When have they ever built a computer?

Re:Having not used one...

[Anonymous Coward]

>Based on my experience with kids, you'd be surprised. (Although
>that may be true with the way the current American education system is.)

I've been working in the educational area for quite some time. The brain's development is not unique to Americans, so put down your straw man.

>It is a "show the source" button. Every app on the machine
>comes with source code, so why wouldn't this work?

It wouldn't work because the source alone isn't enough.

>The Trinity Test was in 1945. They had more powerful
>computers than the OLPC in 1945??

You'd be suprised.

>A large part of the value of the XO is in its software, but of all the
>possible distros to replace it with, I think Gentoo is the worst choice.

It's Fedora. The rest are simply applications. So...try to set this thing up with a fresh Fedora. Or even Edbuntu. You'd see the problem pretty quickly.

>But fine, let's be pedantic: First computer anyone in that village has
>ever owned, or had exclusive access to for more than an hour or so at a time.

Quite a stretch there from saying they had never seen a computer before, but, whatever...

>You are missing the point: NO WIFI. Do you get it now?

Apparently you don't get it. It is "WIFI". They're using standard wireless frequencies and protocols. There's nothing magical about it. Anyone can listen in.

>So, where does the basic radio tower come from? Where does it get its power?
>How does it patch in to a first-world network, if there is one anywhere close by?

You continue to show little grasp of technology. I suggest you look into amatuer radio sometime...not to say amatuer radio gear is the solution, but it will give you a clue.

>Let's see... I'll just tell the class to phone Wikipedia, and... Oh, what's that?
>Wikipedia is a website, full of text? Who'd have guessed?

I can access Wikipeida with an old cell phone. What's your point?

Secondly, Wikipedia is the worst thing to use to educate. It probably wouldn't be in their language, and what little there is, they won't be able to easily correct if it's wrong or incomplete. Remember the tiny keyboards? No connection to the outside world in the first place? Your argument shows a failure to think at so many levels.

>Considering it didn't exist then, and still isn't common now (even in your cell phone),
>you're being unreasonably cynical.

And you're being unreasonably dense. The OLPC doesn't have new technology. This kind of screen is the first I've seen in a mass-produced device, true, but it's not magical. There just never has been a commercial need to put something like it on the market before.

>Yes there is, it's just not actually part of the laptop anymore.

Hint: Hand cranked generators have been around for YEARS!

>Partly because if you shrink it, you miss the point.

Here's the point: As far as size is concerned, there relationship between size and usefulness is not linear. Either things need to be small (hand sized), or reasonably sized (laptop sized). The area in between is not useful, and has failed multiple times in the market. If the XO had a reasonable keyboard, it might be more useful, but it doesn't. They should have done away with the excessive "hand rest" areas at the bottom of the keyboard, and extended so that decently sized keys could have been used. It's just bad design and compromise, based on traditional laptop thinking.

>Let's see... Do I take your word on that? Or a Peruvian kid's?

If it's a toy, take the kids. If it's the wonder platform you think it is, take mine.

-(-1) Flamebait = Insightful.
>When have they ever built a computer?

My kids, nieces, and nephews were using technology on part to this in the '90s. I don't remember the exact names, but Pixter was a pretty cool device (just lacked a keyboard...it was all touch driven). Leapfrog had a multitude of designs.

Re:Having not used one...

[Anonymous Coward]

>>The Trinity Test was in 1945. They had more powerful
>>computers than the OLPC in 1945??

>You'd be suprised.

lol. Even the calculations for the later deuterium/tritium devices were done on ENIAC.
I've had more powerful pocket calculators.

Re:Having not used one...

[SanityInAnarchy]

It wouldn't work because the source alone isn't enough.

To teach? Maybe not, but it's a start.

It's Fedora. The rest are simply applications. So...try to set this thing up with a fresh Fedora. Or even Edbuntu. You'd see the problem pretty quickly.

I don't see it... given that these "simply applications" are a large part of the point.

Apparently you don't get it. It is "WIFI". They're using standard wireless frequencies and protocols. There's nothing magical about it. Anyone can listen in.

Yeah, their neighbor, the sheep herder, is going to have a laptop with AirPwn on it.

I'm not really sure how you can do ad-hoc wireless networking (this "mesh" concept) and expect it to be secure.

You continue to show little grasp of technology. I suggest you look into amatuer radio sometime...not to say amatuer radio gear is the solution, but it will give you a clue.

Dismissive and not helpful. I am not saying the technology doesn't exist, but I do think the XO is an easier solution, and probably cheaper.

But hey, if you think you can do it better, go do it. Maybe Intel would be interested.

I can access Wikipeida with an old cell phone. What's your point?

How big is the screen on that cell phone? What's the resolution?

How about the interface?

Unless we're talking about iPhones (which are quite a bit more expensive than the XO), what's your point?

Secondly, Wikipedia is the worst thing to use to educate. It probably wouldn't be in their language

Close enough. No, it wouldn't be it Quetchua, but Spanish is the language of education in Peru.

Regardless, Wikipedia was just an example. Suppose they do want to learn English -- there are resources online, and tons of text to practice on.

And you're being unreasonably dense. The OLPC doesn't have new technology. This kind of screen is the first I've seen in a mass-produced device, true, but it's not magical.

Strawman. I didn't say it's magical. I do believe it's much better than a cell phone.

Hint: Hand cranked generators have been around for YEARS!

So?

Here's the point: As far as size is concerned, there relationship between size and usefulness is not linear. Either things need to be small (hand sized), or reasonably sized (laptop sized).

For kids, this is apparently the right size.

The area in between is not useful, and has failed multiple times in the market.

For adults. Your point?

If it's a toy, take the kids. If it's the wonder platform you think it is, take mine.

You talk to them, then.

At the very least, it is inspirational.

The XO isn't being taken seriously, which is why people are dropping out of the program like flies. It was an interesting experiment, but it failed.

It failed to produce what you apparently expected. It's not a laptop for grownups, it doesn't do things that would be considered essential if we were talking about, say, high school in middle-class America. But that doesn't make it a toy or a failure.

You see, it succeeded in its actual goals. (In fact, that story was on Slashdot recently. Try reading that TFA, too.)

OLPC Won't Miss Intel's Half-hearted Effort

[narramissic]

In an interview, OLPC President Walter Bender said that Intel's resignation will have 'no impact' since they didn't contribute much and made only a 'seemingly half-hearted effort' to build a version of the XO based on one of its microprocessors since joining the group in July.

Sounds more like One Newton Per Child

[jpellino]

Boss leaving... components leaving... customers leaving... where have I heard this before?

The good news is that now that the concept it proven, the second wave will likely be viable.

Actually many of the people here are among the best. I hope they're their own second wave.

Re:OLPC == Scam

[SanityInAnarchy]

because of AIDS HIV, homosexuals are disqualified from giving blood because of their "lifestyle choices".

Wow. Go learn something about AIDS.

Or, if you're too lazy, I'll spell it out for you: A blind bus driver is actually blind. A gay person may be slightly more likely to get AIDS, but not all gay people have it. And there are other "lifestyle choices" that are actual choices, and actually contribute a good deal more -- like drug use involving dirty needles, or swinging without adequate protection... (Yes, there are monogamous gays. Shocked?)

Re:OLPC not a success

[yoder]

"Excellent. Tax the citizens, milk the donors -- a Socialist's dream."

Right. Turn this into liberal bashing. What a revolutionary idea.

My first computer certainly changed my life

[Art Popp]

>I still can't shake the feeling that this entire OLPC project is an enormous waste of money, intended more to assuage misplaced Western guilt than to bring about any fundamental change in impoverished areas.

While Western folk who may be experiencing guilt may contribute to this project (perhaps quite handily). There is an iso-standard heap of people who are not guilt driven, and are contributing.

This computer will be the Apple IIe, and the C64, AND the Amiga 500 for two entire continents of people. If you are too young to remember that era, good for you, young is great. But I was there, "poking" machine language instructions into high-memory in BASIC so I could run very tight programs hundreds of times faster than the BASIC interpreter allowed. The OLPC computer is vastly more powerful and friendlier than my Vic20 and C64 were. Kids with a tiny fraction of my obsession with electronics will make their OLPCs do 10 times as many cool things.

This isn't about a cheap-teacher's assistants in foreign schools, this is about kindling a passion for technology in people who currently have little access to it. The Vic20 made a fundamental change in my life. I'm participating because I'd like to make that fundamental change in someone else's.

>And when the local warlord rounds up all these laptops to sell them for arms money, what good will all that valuable information do?

Between the small keyboard, the small screen and the lack of support for any non-Linux O/S. I think a warlord is going to be very disappointed what he can accomplish with these computers.

>Education is indeed on the path out of poverty. Unfortunately in many areas targeted for the OLPC, other hurdles must be overcome before education (and realizing the potential of the OLPC) is possible.

Country's are like Ogre's. They have layers. Even in very troubled countries there will be a layer of kids who get enough to eat, and have enough clean water, but currently go through the whole school year only seeing computers on a television, at a place where they have electric power.

These laptops are for kids in that layer. They will not feed the hungry at the layer beneath, nor overthrow the unjust government over-layer whose poor decisions stifle the nation's progress. These are noble tasks and I greatly admire the people who attack these problems.

I have chosen the problem I am suited to help with. I will donate some laptops to kids in that middle layer and I will find a way to make them more fun/useful/educational.

I don't know if this effort will succeed, but then my parent's were quite certain my Vic20 programming was a waste of time, and that worked out quite well.

"Success is not final, failure is not fatal: it is the courage to continue that counts."
--Winston Churchill

Re:My first computer certainly changed my life

[goldspider]

Between the small keyboard, the small screen and the lack of support for any non-Linux O/S. I think a warlord is going to be very disappointed what he can accomplish with these computers.

I agree with most of your post. However the taking of information out of people's hands, by itself, is an effective means of maintaining poverty and oppression. The final disposition of the OLPCs is irrelevant at that point.

Re:My first computer certainly changed my life

[Anonymous Coward]

Fair enough. A warlord has the power to take these things away. But as they are of little monetary or utilitarian value, the standard motives/excuses won't apply. Since the standard methods of isolating your population from the world (firewalls, mail searches, bullets) will still apply, a warlord with any cunning would simply isolate the OLPC's from the rest of the internet and have one of his/her henchmen make sure the laptops were Dogma packed, and Blasphemy-free.

I concede the point however that there are places where the middle layer is too thin, where the top layer hates any change they didn't themselves create. (This is not an Intel reference :) ), where everything not compulsory is forbidden. In these places OLPC's will confiscated for any number of reasons and be destroyed or sold...

While there is not much I can do to help those people from this side of the planet, I do hope that in the long term the countries wherein we do assist the middle layer kids, will prosper and by doing so make the people in the totalitarian governments discontent with their status quo.

For now we'll help the ones we can.

Re:My first computer certainly changed my life

[Anonymous Coward]

well then, couldn't they wipe it clean and put say, The Bible on it so make sure the people feel comfortable in their place of poverty and oppression?

Re:OLPC not a success

[Anonymous Coward]

According to GP-posting, they sold only 50000 boxes.

No. According to the GP posting they only sold 50000 boxes IN THE UNITED STATES.

Re:OLPC not a success

[mi]

According to news, 150 000 would be more correct number.

And the accurate profit margin was? 19 cents?

Re:OLPC not a success

[Anonymous Coward]

no, it was one laptop.

Re:OLPC not a success

[oneeyedman]

I got a pretty good education funded by the taxpayers of several states. I drive on pretty good roads that are paid for by taxes and which promote commerce, hence wealth. My grandmother received a pretty good pension from Social Security and tax-funded health care until she died at a ripe old age. The Internet is a pretty good communication system that was created using taxes. And the security function you think so highly of has been a corporate-profit-drive botch (for this country, at least) in every military or covert operation since Korea, except maybe for the cooperative Balkan effort in the nineties. Now why don't you dream up some more examples to support your flimsy viewpoint? Or did you just copy it off of a Libertarian Web site?

Re:OLPC not a success

[Risen888]

You doing something with your own money is noble. You forcing a nation to do the same thing by collecting taxes under the presumption of pain of imprisonment is somewhat a bad thing. Not always but outside of Fire, Safe drinking water and effective security, you know, basic governmental infrastructure, it is generally not good.

So, ensuring that the next generation of kids that comes up might actually have a stabbing chance at bringing their country out of the third world and into the twenty-first (hell, the twentieth) century isn't one of those things that it might be good to collect tax revenue for? I'd say it goes hand in hand with "effective security," you know, ensuring that there will still be a country there in ten years.

Wonderful Worldview.

[Anonymous Coward]

My wife and I are trying to establish an astronomical observatory for school and community groups to use. It is to be completely free of charge. We're not even asking for donations. It's all paid for by us. We have two children of our own and are on a single income. We took out a huge loan to pay for this project.

Yet many people keep asking me how we're "going to make any money". When I explain that we won't be making any money, that it was never the intention, they look at me as if they don't understand, or that I didn't understand the question, or I'm simply an idiot.

Not too far from here is a commercial astro tourism venture. The owner also happens to be a property developer. When he heard about my project, he contacted all the local schools and the national school board and tried to sell his service to them.

He also tells people that my wife and I are trying to put him out of business and his (grossly underpaid) staff out of work. He claims that I'm "obviously" not telling the truth about my project, because, well, it's free of charge and we all know that nobody does anything for nothing.

How about once - just once - we really do "Think Of The Children©®TM" instead of the mighty dollar?

Just as you've attacked Negroponte?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or is me telling you you're a self-centred egotistical cocksucker is NOT an attack?

Re:Just as you've attacked Negroponte?

[elrous0]

cocksucker

I was young and needed the money.

Re:Just as you've attacked Negroponte?

[Lord Apathy]

Or you could just get called a cocksucker by some jackass who is to afraid to log in.

Sir, you handled that with style and grace. I salute you. or something like that.

Re:OLPC not a success

[sumdumass]

Well, first, who is to say that moving from a third world status is a priority? they have had plenty of opportunity to do so in the past and have failed to do so. This is typically because the political or religious or some other ideological environments don't allow it to happen more then anything. If you don't understand this concept, look at the inner city areas where it isn't cool to be smart. where if you succeed, you are a sellout, an uncle tom, or a house nigger. Giving kids laptops aren't going to solve any of that.

Next, the problem is as you mentioned "A chance", You cannot ensure that the money isn't just a waist because of other factors being the problems. You thinking it might be a good idea doesn't make it one. You thinking the outcome of those actions will create a certain environment doesn't mean it will. You thinking that it is the only way or the best way doesn't make it true. You thinking I need to agree with you under pain and penalty of imprisonment is a bad idea. Surely if it is such a great idea and the case has so much merit then people would be more then happy to fund it from private donations. Including the people who would be paying the taxes.

You see, that is the problem with socialism, if it is such a good idea, then why do you need to force people into it? Why do you need government to make people participate? It would seem that it would just be something already happening with a framework of freedom if it is such a great idea. What happens is that you think it is a good idea and other don't for what ever reason. And the reasons for or against might be just as valid. But when you use the government to force people to participate, you are in effect ignoring all the reasons except your own however flawed it might or might not be.

And no, giving kids laptops isn't securing the future of the country. It is giving kids laptops. if the environment is there that allows them to make something of it, then it won't happen. No amount of laptops will ensure the country is still there in the future. It can only make the future a better place but again, that is dependent on other variables that aren't likely to be present.

Re:OLPC == Scam

[denzacar]

Salvation Army is working on a cheap laptop for children too? Translation for humorless idiots with mod-points:

Parent poster is not only trolling, as it was marked at the time of my posting, he/she is also going waaay off-topic.
Topic is about One Laptop Per Child and Intel's (non)involvement in the project. NOT about which charity each of us likes the best.
I find the parent post funny in its pointlessness.
Look - I am going to comment on it in a humorous way pointing out its fallacy.

Re:OLPC not a success

[sumdumass]

I can see that your purposely confusing the subject. First, I was responding to a chap who was taking a Linus quote out of context. But seeing how context is a popular missing thing, lets look at the situation in the context you put forth.

First, the government controls the education that taxes pays for for the most part. They sought out to create an education system and developed it from the ground up on a local level and then mandates are pushed in from a federal level which is where your funding from taxes from other states come in. It actually does little for the quality of education you receive but I will let you have your misguided realities and not address this directly. Second, there were roads before Taxes funded them. They were either dirt paths or toll roads held by private people. The idea of taxing people to pay for roads came about later in our history after we found it necessary to get fire equipment and police services to quickly to different parts of towns. Again, something that the government controlled and sought after when there was a need. Of course some things change around a little with Interstate highways and so on, but it is the same concept.

Next, the inter web, when it was turned over to private individuals and companies, lost the majority of the tax funding. It is supported primarily by peering and the necessity for entities who were doing business with the government to continue doing busyness with entities after the government lost interest in it. In case you don't know what peering is, it is a series of private networks interconnected with the common advantage of letting other people's traffic pass along your network in exchange for them letting yours pass. This is why Net Neutrality is so important. Of course some things have changed when small companies started needing wholesale access and they started charging for bandwidth outside the peering connections.

Now, this OLPC project, is a private venture attempting to convince the governments that they need their services and products. This is very similar to the And the security function you think so highly of has been a corporate-profit-drive botch (for this country, at least) in every military or covert operation since Korea, except maybe for the cooperative Balkan effort in the nineties. comment you made. Besides the fact that I said nothing about for profit or corporate driven anything, you assume that because I think the idea of forcing people to participate in something is bad, that I am the opposite of you.

Well, the fact is, if the governments of these third world countries decided this was needed and went looking for it, I would support it as a tax payer transaction. But this isn't the case at all. You have a situation the more actively reflect the corporate whoring you mentioned where a company has a product and it attempting to convince governments to pay for it with Tax dollars by promising a future that might never happen. We won't get into the ideas that socialism usually turns into privacy invasions and eventually loss of freedoms because this type of socialism we are seeing is the worse kind. It is the kind where some entity attempts to sell and profit from the social aspect and hopes of a country without addressing any of the real problems present. Most third world countries are third world for a number of reasons outside their kids having access to laptops. This is usually social economic reasons as well as political environmental reasons. None of which will be addressed by giving kids laptops.

Now why don't you dream up some more examples to support your flimsy viewpoint? Or did you just copy it off of a Libertarian Web site?

Now why don't you actually look at what was said, what was replied to, and the situations at hand. I would also suggest you not throwing too many stones as it appear you on the top level of a glass house. The next time you decide to reply to me, spend 5 minute thinking about the situation, spend another 10 minutes looking up more information and then another 5 minutes thinking about what your missing. Then maybe you won't look like such an imbecile when replying. This stuff isn't rocket science but it does require you to open your eyes and look around a bit.

Intel think it's competing.

[Tungbo]

If you accept what you said,
"Your right, there is no argument here. But this is typically the outcome of third party or minority politics. You create an awareness that causes another more influential party to take notice and adopt part if not all of your strategy and concerns and carry the torch for you."

Then you should conclude that Intel felt that OLPC would compete with them. That it could erode their goal to lock in new computer users to their proprietary technology and software.

Furthermore the outcome is NOT the same even if we assume the same educational experience can be delivered. Since Classmate is twice as expensive, the amount of education delivered would be half as much compared to OLPC. That's not even counting the ruggedized advantages built into the OLPC.

In addition, locking in new users to a proprietary solution means that more of the student's future income would be diverted to these vendors.
An even worse scenario involve the company getting a population to invest in hardware and systems, only to pull support later on when profit margin becomes too low. Then those people would lost their investment.
Not my preferred way to spend a 3rd world countries' scarce hard currency.

I actually have no beef with Intel resigning from OLPC. Since they are engaging in behavior which appears to involve a Conlict of Interest, it's good that they resigned from the nonprofit entity. But let's call a spade a spade. Intel is in it for the profit, not education. And sometimes, a nonprofit solution can be more efficient than a for-profit one.

Re:Intel think it's competing.

[sumdumass]

I think you did a pretty good job at separating the two markets each would be going after when you described the advantages of the OLPC. Twice as expensive, not as rugged does not equal the a third world country where education is missing. It equals a first world country where education is lacking for certain groups, IE the poor inner city kids, something the OLPC is planning on ignoring.

I'm sorry but I just don't see the evil in that even if it is for a profit. Of course i'm still under the assumption that OLPC and Intel would be serving similar but different markets. The intel market would be more along the lines of a market with wealthier people then the OLPC's target audience.

Getting rich != helping poor

[Tungbo]

Bill Gates and Warren Buffet are exremely poor exmaples for your purposes. By a combination of personal abilites and good fortune, they have amassed wealth that no individual can realistically spend with their entire lifetime. Yet they do not claim to have the experience on how to best aid the poor. Rather they set up foundations staffed with people experiened in development, health, or whatever area they wish to direct their resources. The experience of getting rich helps mainly with getting more rich.

Yunus is a worthy role model indeed. He saw a need and fulfilled it. But we need many different approaches to dealing with a wide variety of
problems.

Finally, it is a false choice to only develop one self or only help the poor. Why not do both? That's the kind of path OLPC is taking.

Re:Getting rich != helping poor

[mi]

Yet they do not claim to have the experience on how to best aid the poor. Rather they set up foundations staffed with people experienced in development, health, or whatever area they wish to direct their resources.

And all of these employees of theirs are working there for a living. They may be doing, what they like (I do to), but it is run as a business. Also, very importantly, they spend their own money on it — not the taxpayers'...

Yunus is a worthy role model indeed. He saw a need and fulfilled it.

That's strange dichotomy with Melinda and Bill Gates Foundation — they see needs and try to fulfill them too... Buffet simply gave (billions of) his own money to them, BTW.

Finally, it is a false choice to only develop one self or only help the poor. Why not do both?

Because you can not be good at both. At best you'll be mediocre. At worst (and likely), you'll be damaging to both — growing bitter and personally poor without substantially helping anyone else...

That's the kind of path OLPC is taking.

The path OLPC would take, given a slightest opportunity, would be to get financing through taxes. If Yunus, Gates, and other credible private donors aren't backing the project, neither should you.

Link to Intel 2005 "emerging markets" plan

[rbrander]

The strategy:
http://www.nten.org/sites/nten/files/Sustainable%20Computing_0.pdf

Seminar about it:
http://www.nten.org/events/webinar/2006/04/21/sustainable-computing-for-developing-countries

Summary: Intel's "Emerging Market Platform Group" details several computers they've developed that are targeted at the poor in various ways: small laptops, cybercafe machines, school machines, etc.

The document dates to 2005. Intel did not discover this market because of the OLPC project, they have been pursuing it for years. Education is just one of the markets they are pursuing in the developing world. OLPC is obviously in the way of the education area marketing strategy, and so they tried undercutting them, then joining them, and now they're back to undercutting again.

The ethical concern here is not competition per se - its that private companies can "market" in ways that a non-profit project cannot: ways that involve special forms of "persuasion" for the purchasing bureaucrats of developing nation's educational institutions. It's not about the poor buying either product directly, it's about their public servants picking one product over another based on, ah, marketing techniques, rather than measurable cost/benefit ratios.

$239/$188 = 27% higher. If the Classmate lasts 27% longer than the OLPC in field conditions, or delivers 27% more educational value in some way, well and good. But I haven't seen that independent study. I suspect, neither have the department heads that have picked it. Indeed, I kind of suspect they've seen a highly-biased, very slick presentation, while lunching on chicken cordon bleu.

Re:Link to Intel 2005 "emerging markets" plan

[Arimus]

I don't think Intel's decision is purely down to their product being better but down the arrogance of the OLPC board telling Intel to stop working on any other comparable product.

Intel = VERY big fish

OLPC = small fry

When you're one of the big fish and the little fry turn round and say anything that begins with 'we demand' then it doesn't take a Marvin to figure out the response from the big fish (If you are lucky the response does not being with an F and end in one but is more politely worded ;) )

It's not capitalistic evil, it's common sense

[earlymon]

Here's the money quote:

The OLPC board "had asked Intel to end its support for non-OLPC platforms including the Classmate PC and other systems," Intel spokesman Chuck Mulloy said. "They wanted us to focus our support exclusively on the OLPC system." From: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20080104/tc_nm/intel_olpc_dc_3;_ylt=AtBYsbjlRJzoSOVgm83gsB0E1vAI

I believe the Intel spokesguy - otherwise what was said is actionable and Intel isn't that stoopid.

Read it carefully and then imagine how you'd respond if one of your business partners asked you to limit support of other products you make or are involved in.

Common sense dictates you'd act the same as Intel - pull out.

nope, no charitable tax receipt

[spage]

G1G1 donors (like me) also got 1 year of free T-Mobile Hotspot access, which is about $360 value, so the value received for your $400 is more than the $400, so no charitable deduction.

Re:over-rated un-critical drivel

[verySmartApe]

...and it was OLPC wanting Intel to cease it's production of more cheap laptops that caused Intel (who had previously done a great deal of good for the project) to step out 1. You are swallowing wholesale Intel's side of the story, which incidentally was released late at night before a weekend-- most certainly so that OLPC would not have time to respond promptly. You own a lot of stock or something?

2. What good has Intel done for OLPC? They were part of the project for less than 6 months (compared to many years for google et al.). They were working on an Intel version of the XO, but that is presumably scrapped. So what has OLPC gotten from Intel but bad press? Now that I think of it, maybe that was Intel's true reason for joining in the first place...

Re:OLPC a success

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, the figure now is 175,000, no thanks to Intel. It could sell in other
areas, different markets. It has been deliberately undercutting a nonprofit to
try to make it not a success. Yet it doesn't offer what the OLPC
offers to children. The Classmate is just a stripped down Windows traditional
laptop. The OLPC is an educational experience. It's shameful what Intel is doing.

Not true

[Anonymous Coward]

Intel didn't quit. It was pushed, for violating its agreement with OLPC and not
fulfilling its side of the bargain. Then it tells its story its way instead of
putting out a joint statement with OLPC.

It has been deliberately undermining the OLPC project, and it was caught, and now
it's out and outed.

nothing in or out?

[reiisi]

including the gold and diamonds?

You are are, pardon me for saying so, excreting in your own economic water.

The solution to Africa's problems are sort of complex, but they include more westerners who can go over there and keep their hands out of everybody else's pants. Economically and physically.

Re:nothing in or out?

[Lord Apathy]

The solution to Africa's problems are sort of complex, but they include more westerners who can go over there and keep their hands out of everybody else's pants. Economically and physically.

No, they are not. The most simple solution is to leave africa alone and let it tend to its own problems. They will ether get their shit straight or they will die.

Simple.

reports on pilot programs are in their wiki

[reiisi]

(not wikipedia, the olpc wiki)

Go read.

kids were getting ZERO laptops prior to Negroponte

[HornWumpus]

You believe that in the entire third world not one poor kid got one laptop yet? (Excepting the tests of OLPC.)

I'm sure that's just not true. Granted the laptop is likely a old POS (like the OLPC, only old) and the kids are likely older before they manage to get one.

LOL, sure, socialism will work great, this time.

[HornWumpus]

How about we just stop loaning the third world any more money (or at least those parts that default on loans or nationalize foreign owned industries).

I'd be OK with forgiving debt if it also involved no more cash being forthcoming for Chavez's natty threads and private jet.

But of course that will never happen.

"The Economist" on OLPC

[westlake]

"The Economist" doesn't pull its punches:

OLPC's problems, which can be distilled into four main areas, risk turning a wonderful idea into a plastic paperweight.

In their zeal to rewrite the rules of computing for first-time users, OLPC shipped machines with a cumbersome operating system. For example, adding Flash to do something like watch a YouTube video requires users to go into a terminal line-code and type a long internet address to download the software: it seems impossible to cut-and-paste the address. ... OLPC tried to reinvent the wheel and came up with an oval.

Second, the go-to-market execution...was imperfect. There was a lack of documentation, support and methods to integrate the PCs into school curricula, teacher training, and the like. OLPC seemed to think that just by handing out laptops, everything would sort itself out...The consumer is not the nine-year-old user with infinite time on her hands, but a government bureaucrat who has to evaluate the machines relative to other options.

That leads to the third problem. Since the project launched in 2005, commercial rivals have emerged: Intel's "Classmate" at around $250; Acer's laptop at $350...There are many more...All computer buyers will have to compare the XP to a lot of other products in the market--something that never seemed to have struck OLPC's staffers as a possibility, but should have.

This leads to the final problem that has done the most to disappoint OLPC's fans: the hubris, arrogance and occasional self-righteousness of OLPC workers. They treated all criticism as enemy fire to be deflected and quashed rather than considered and possibly taken on board. Overcoming this will be essential if the project is to succeed past its first release. Technology products improve based on user feedback. The OLPC staff will need to learn to listen to the candid criticism of outsiders for the second-generation of the laptop--or they do not deserve to build one.

Ultimately the OLPC initiative will be remembered less for what it produced than the products it spawned. The initiative is like running the four-minute mile: no one could do it, until someone actually did it. Then many people did. ... Mr Negroponte's vision for a $100 laptop was not the right computer, only the right price. Like many pioneers, he laid a path for others to follow.

One clunky laptop per child.

Classmate suited for what?

[reiisi]

Putting Puppy Linux on, maybe?

pouring what money and tech in?

[reiisi]

Negroponte says the whole problem was that iNTEL was _not_ pouring much of anything in.

They paid the membership fee.

your mind is easily blown?

[reiisi]

Give a child a jet-powered fishing pole?

Comparing an XO with a jetski demonstrates that you prefer arguing with a strawman to actually doing any research on the subject of the debate.

160,000

[reiisi]

and a little, according to Negroponte.

That's not $100 profit per unit sold, that's the cost of a second to donate somewhere and just barely enough margin to cover delivery of both. Maybe.

He himself said there wasn't going to be enough to demonstrate that the program could be self-sustaining through the G1G1 program.

mod points?

[reiisi]

I mean, all the pro-iNTEL and anti-OLPC blather getting modded up and all the factual posts getting modded down (along with some pro-OLPC blather, as well, I supposed). So why isn't the parent AC modded up as well?

Is it so obviously a troll to mouth something about the qvadrivivm, et. al. being only available via the traditional teaching methods and tools?

And is it so obvious that a book^H^H^H^H^H^H a thousand books may not be easier to maintain than a few XOs and a server?

Re:OLPC not a success

[wrecked]

According to an interview with Negroponte, "162,000 XOs had been sold in the U.S. for $399 in the last two months - generating $35 million" (Negroponte on Intel's $100 laptop pullout).

Also according to the interview, Intel acted in a complete conflict-of-interest to their duties as a board member. An Intel representative went to Peru, where OLPC had already secured a contract, and disparaged the XO to the vice-minister in charge. Peru went with the sale anyway, and shared Intel's comments ("The XO doesn't work, and you have no idea the mistake you've made. You'll get yourselves into big trouble," etc.) with Negroponte. Even though Paul Otellini, Intel's representative on the OLPC board was contrite about this, not everyone at Intel is on the same page regarding the XO.

Re:OLPC not a success

[mi]

According to an interview with Negroponte, "162,000 XOs had been sold in the U.S. for $399 in the last two months - generating $35 million"

That's a "bit" more, than OLPC's target price of $100 per unit, is not it?..

Re:kids were getting ZERO laptops prior to Negropo

[ahabswhale]

If they got one, it wouldn't do any good because they have no electricity.

You are the lord of Apathy

[anandsr]

I pity you. You have so much hate. I guess nobody ever loved you.

Re:You are the lord of Apathy

[Lord Apathy]

Don't pity me, pity yourself. You people just don't understand what the fuck is going on. We can't save africa. The africans have to do that themselves but they are not willing. You know why they are not willing? Because everytime there is a problem the West rushs in with food and supplies.

Do you know that in some african cultures there is no concept of the future? There are no words in their language for tomorrow. They live for the now. You give them well and tubing for irrigation. Let them grow food for one season, enough to feed them all. Come back a year later you will find they have sold off the pump and irrigation equipment. Why? Because they didn't need it anymore. You ask them why they didn't think to use it this season, by the way they are starving because they didn't save any food or seeds, and they will look at you like you are stupid.

Feed these people so they can breed and then there are more mouths to feed. So the game continues. We've been trying to change the conditions over there for 60 years and they just keep getting worse. Compare the africa today to the africa of the 1960s? When where the africans better off?

When is enough, enough? When they have breded beyond our ability feed them and ourselves? People like you are part of the problem. We have created a whole continent that is dependent on the good will of others. If that cycle doesn't stop.

Oh fuck it.

Re:You are the lord of Apathy

[Antique Geekmeister]

Go ahead, name a single African culture that has "no concept of the future".

stopping Windows

[r00t]

Proper CPU choice can avoid the infection. You'll want:

* huge virtually indexed virtually tagged caches with contexts

* big-endian

* 64-bit, with very slow 16-bit operations and very fast 64-bit operations

* unaligned memory accesses silently corrupt the destination (ignore low bits and/or use stale data on the bus)

* the MMU's dirty and accessed bits should be zSeries-style: physical rather than virtual, and accessed only via special instructions

* have DMA not be cache-coherent

* have an IOMMU. Give the PCI DMA a very limited window into memory, perhaps 64 MB, so that the IOMMU must be used.

State of Government education in India and XO

[anandsr]

The articles on this site are wrong on so many levels.

So it is true that the XO (the OLPC laptop) costs around 4 times the monthly salary of a teacher in rural areas. But how much that matters when the aim is not to just teach them to read and write but to impart them a good education.

I don't know how many people from India would like to teach their children in Government schools. I know I will not. The question is why won't anybody want to teach their children in government schools.

The answer is that the schools impart pathetic education. They literally kill any talent that the children may have. They are the reason why we have an education divide in India. Children from poor families have no hope for ever getting out of the cycle. The relatively richer people have much better education.

I will give you a different scale to ponder. India has a population of 1 billion. There will be at least 100 million children that need to be educated. Assuming that you want to give good education to these children, comparable to what the rich get. The good schools have a teacher to student ratio of 1:20 at lower levels and 1:30 at higher levels. That will mean that you need 4 million teachers. You will also need to provide good salaries to them to attract teachers that have the same level of education and capabilities as the good schools. You will have to pay a minimum of of 10000Rs in the cities and 5000Rs in the rural areas, not the pathetic 2000Rs that is given to them.

The other question is how will you get 4 million decent teachers when there are so many more paying jobs in the country, for well educated people.

XO is not an attempt to provide education to children with no money. It is an attempt to provide a simple way for the poor but interested children to have a decent education. You cannot do it through teachers. You will never find enough. The internet is a very good teacher. It can help the interested children to learn more than their teachers know.

The XO is not for the famished children. Those children do need security, water, etc more. But they are not the only ones.

It is for children from lower middle class background that cannot afford a good education and must rely on what the teachers at
government schools provide. The XO can augment the education that they get in schools. The fact is that their current teachers haven't had any decent education. They don't know enough. They are not good teachers. You can read how teachers are torturing their students. These news items are now coming almost daily. All these are not from good expensive schools but government schools.

The XO can allow the children to read themselves. To know what their teachers don't know, and would not even be interested in knowing. It can provide access to the Wikipedia, to online books, even if they cannot afford the books. XO also has enough features to bring out their creativity.

You must think that these children should only learn enough to become clerks or even lower. But why shouldn't they have a better education, that brings out their creativity.

I have not studied in government school either, but my brother had the misfortune of attending such a school for a couple of years. That is a reason why I think that for the poor people the XO is the only way out.

Another problem is that the Indian government is not even interested in education. Its not an issue that wins votes. I don't expect them to ever get XO in India.

BTW I will be buying one for my son, when it is available in India. It is a wonderful machine. I hope that other people in my community buy them too. They are great for children to communicate and be creative. My son is just 4 years but loves computers a lot. I am afraid of giving a normal laptop to him. He may break it, and they are too expensive. The XO is virtually indestructible and can be used by children.

ARM is painfully slow

[r00t]

The FPU is terrible.

Maybe a PowerPC G4 would be tolerable.

There is a lot to be said for x86. It isn't pretty, but it has good code density and people have put a lot of effort into making good CPUs for it.

Re:LOL, sure, socialism will work great, this time

[GNUALMAFUERTE]

You mean REnationalize. That is, make National again, a company that was national, but was sold very cheap to a foreigner after he paid a big bribery to the government.

And you don't loan money to Chavez, you buy Oil from Venezuela.

Where do you think the money you loan the 3rd world comes from? Do you think the USA really has that value?
Let me explain:

The USA creates unstable political situations all over the world. That results in an unstable economy. So people everywhere goes and put their money in dollars. In banks in the USA. Then, the IMF loans that money back, and charges an interest.

Come on, stop believing CNN.

LACK of money is the root of all evil!

[Anonymous Coward]

Citizens of a country with enough material and labor need not suffer from poverty.

The last thing people in power want is producers who understand markets.

Black market?

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder how long it'll take for OLPC's to appear on the black market in Africa. One hour? Two? Make no mistake about it: the "poor children" won't see these machines, except in a few, well publicized cases. The majority of OLPC's will disappear (read: stolen) and sold to make more money for the corrupt powers-that-be. Such is Africa. And if you think different, then maybe you should go and live there for 40 years, like I did. OLPC will NOT work in Africa. The west should build a wall around Africa and forget about it. It's simply not worth the trouble.

Negroponte Responds...

[VValdo]

...here.

According to him, this was all about intel constantly disparaging XO despite agreements not to do so.

W

Re:OLPC not a success

[VValdo]

Actually, it's better than that...

What is the final tally of Give One Get One? 162,000, for $35 million.

W

balance?

[verySmartApe]

The linked article only gives Intel's side of the story, which was released late Thursday night before OLPC had a chance to respond. Here is a more balanced article: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/05/technology/05laptop.html

Re:OLPC not a success

[bstoneaz]

Negroponte is a piece of work. Here is a quote from him about the split: "They cannot compete with OLPC and be a partner. I think they violated their fiduciary responsibility as a board member constantly." This is plain stupid. To him this is not about getting a laptop into every child's hands, it is about getting *his* laptop promoted.

Re:OLPC not a success

[wrecked]

$399 is the "Give 1 Get 1" price ie. the price of two XOs, one donated, one sent to the purchaser. The fact that the unit price of an XO reached $199 has been endlessly discussed since last spring.

Re:OLPC not a success

[mi]

$399 is the "Give 1 Get 1" price ie. the price of two XOs, one donated, one sent to the purchaser. The fact that the unit price of an XO reached $199 has been endlessly discussed since last spring.

Ok, let's go back to the figures:

162,000 XOs had been sold in the U.S. for $399 in the last two months - generating $35 million

$35M/162K comes out at $216 per pair... Alright. Now, when Negroponte says "generating", does he mean "profit" or "revenue"?

Re:G1G1 Happy Camper

[Douglas Goodall]

I recently involved myself with the G1G1 program. I am very impressed with the entire situation. While everything hasn't settled down yet, my first experience with the XO has been very positive. As a software engineer with 40 years of experience, I am way over-exposed to certain hardware and software here in the USA. I know some people will hate this, but IMHO Linux is a lot like Windows. From a look and feel standpoint, I find it similar to common user access specifications. The OLPC XO on the other hand is new. I had a learning experience similar to what a child would have. I took the machine out of the box, and spent time learning about it. In every respect it is NOT like Windows. I found that entirely refreshing. Even though I am a switcher and use Macintosh computers these days, the contrast between what I am used to and the XO is awe inspiring. I don't play games on computers and while I use them for web and email, as well as programming, I find it hard to have "FUN" with them. The XO is different. I began to "PLAY" with it and started learning straight away. Those who say it should have Windows and Office have spent too much time sucking on Microsoft's teat. I expect to have a great deal of fun with mine. Now I admit the keys are small, but they are useable. I am getting used to the Sugar user interface and it is intuitive. When I do programming on the box, I shell in from my Mac. The machine has quite a way to go, but it is a worthy enterprise. I will enjoy writing software to run on the machine, and not all software activity has to be for money. The XO brought out my inner child, and if I knew local children that had these, I would enjoy relating to them, and learning from them. If you haven't played with one, it is hard for you to understand how cool they are. I am happy that there is a child somewhere that has one because I donated to the program. It made me feel good. There is nothing wrong with that. I encourage people to learn more about the project before judging the machine or the people involved. There is something very special about the project that I can feel in my heart.

Re:LOL, sure, socialism will work great, this time

[HornWumpus]

Chavez will be back for loans shortly. (After wrecking his petroleum industry, already well on its way, production is way down, new wells aren't being drilled as nobody with a drilling rig will trust the Venezuelans with it.) It will be fun to watch them ask to rejoin the IMF/WB once history has repeated itself.

Socialists are like teenagers, they always piss away any amount of money they get plus 50%.

I say let Chavez get his loans from the Chinese. They will financially sodomize Venezuela like never before (using hot sauce for lube).

Finally, turd worlders have money? Who'd have thunk it. The third world is a mess due to local government mismanagement. It is not our problem. Chavez/Mugabe are just the latest in a long series of local thieves.

Look to Asia to see the smart way to bring an economy up to speed. (S. Korea, Japan, Thailand, India etc) None perfect, but they have come far further then any nation in South America or Africa. Even there the exceptions (South Africa and Chile) show that progress is possible in those region.