OLPC, Microsoft Working Toward Dual-Boot XO Laptops

Ian Lamont writes "The OLPC Project and Microsoft are developing a dual-boot system to put both Linux and Windows on the laptops, according to an interview with Nicholas Negroponte. The article is thin on details, as the OLPC/Microsoft talks are apparently at an early stage. Could this be the end of the OS wars in Nigeria and other developing countries?" While Microsoft has been working on an OLPC-capable version of Windows for some time now, the interesting thing here is the dual-booting provision, rather than forcing users into an either-or choice.

Comments

XO is the look on my face

[Anonymous Coward]

when Bill Gates rams my butthole!!

Re:XO is the look on my face

[professional_troll]

Really? You shouldn't be able to feel anything, after all do you know how the name Micro-soft came from right?

Re:XO is the look on my face

[jordg]

-- Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before

Get your hand off my ass!

Delusional

[eldavojohn]

It's a brand new development for the XO laptops, as the low-cost notebooks are known, and came about because of Microsoft's friendlier attitude toward open-source software. Dear Dan Nystedt of ComputerWorld, the English language lacks the proper words that I need to express how wrong you are. I only wish I knew German so I could scream the rest of this post at you.

What caused you to write that sentence, I will never know. Was Stevie B. holding a firearm to your head when you wrote this article? Or simply placing a sack with a large green $ on your desk?

Seriously, this is an all out attack on open source software. They are vying for the young minds of every single child in developing countries. What is so special about this that GRUB or LILO cannot be used for the dual booting? Is Microsoft developing the code to dual boot? I would be shocked if they were.

If you claim Microsoft just wants to make sure the kids get the best operating system for learning, why weren't they handing out free copies of Windows and Office to 3rd world children/schools before the OLPC project started? Because they'd rather give away their product than let a competitor fall into the hearts and minds of these children. Linux has always been free to everybody. Think about it.

Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before, Negroponte said. "And that really helps, because it's become a little bit less religious than it was a few years ago and that's really good. In the end, I think, the more people that have software and hardware out there, the better." Has the whole world gone mad? I'm all for getting the children any operating system they want, in fact I'm glad they will have that choice. But to say that Microsoft has embraced the open-source community is ... strange at best. They may have created their own pseudo-open source community within their company but little more.

Those 419 patent violation accusations ... that's "embracing" someone?

It may have become a little less religious recently but only so far as the ends justify Microsoft's means. They are interested in profit, nothing more. I would love to applaud them for coming around and realizing that open source software is a viable solution for making money--and even improving a product! But I cannot say that today. They only actively threaten it in underhanded ways.

Re:Delusional

[sm62704]

I think I can decrypt that for you:

Microsoft has embraced the open-source community over the past few years in a very different way than before

My daughter's cats have embraced mice over the past few years in a very different way than before. Previously they would lay the dead mouse by my dining room chair, now they just eat the mouse.

Don't forget Microsoft's mantra: Embrace, extend, extinguish. Much like my daughter's cats; mantra about mice.

Re:Delusional

[Anonymous Coward]

Much like my daughter's cats; mantra about mice. That's a nice analogy. Now I'm going to go home and swallow some heart worm eggs and sit outside Steve Ballmer's office. Does anybody have any butter?

At least my death will not be in vain ...

Re:Delusional

[jav1231]

There's a lot of unknowns here. Will this be a stripped / unlicensed version or what?
He says, "We are working with them very closely to make a dual-boot system so that, like on an Apple, you can boot either one up."
But Apple doesn't provide Windows for you.
It would appear that Negroponte is in need of further funding. That would explain the Intel involvement. Their departure has been noted. Now Microsoft is on board, no doubt bringing cash. Personally, I think this is a mistake. There are millions of PC's with Windows already on them. M$ has had 2 decades to do this. They are far less concerned about getting Windows into the hands of the needy and more concerned with making sure no one runs any other OS but Windows. Get that crack into a new generation so we can ensure our business model. Good business you say? Maybe. But OLPC was supposed to be about charity, not business.

Re:Delusional

[Locutus]

for a good example of this, there was the Thailand laptop deal. In that, HP was providing Thailand with inexpensive laptops with Linux and OSS on it and the government was providing them cheaply to the public. This was such a hit that HP could not keep up with the orders and so Dell was brought in. Microsoft caught wind of this and contacted the Thai government. Soon after, Linux and OSS was replace with a crippled version of Windows and MS Office at what was claimed to $3/laptop. There was likely also provided some millions in donated training by Microsoft or something like that to help fund this shift.

So yup, Microsoft's involvement is only reactionary because the project leveraged the cost savings and efficiencies of Linux and OSS. From what I've heard, even the Bill/Melinda Gates Foundation computer donations come with restrictions on usage of Linux and OSS. So they still want Linux and OSS destroyed and helping kids is only PR. IMO.

LoB

Re:Delusional

[ozmanjusri]

Will this be a stripped / unlicensed version or what?

Yep, interesting. Sugar is a lot more than just an OS.

Microsoft wouldn't want to be seen as the loser in a competition like this, so how will Microsoft provide all the additional functionality? Bundle Works?

They'll also need to address the malware aspect, and do so in the very limited space available on the XO. If they manage to do that, they'll also have to be careful to cripple it so it won't run on ordinary PCs. A stripped down, low cost, lightweight OS that would install on standard X86 hardware and run existing PE apps would eat Vista for breakfast.

Re:Delusional

[fatwilbur]

Ahh, the world of slashdot is full of brilliant academics so I would hope you can understand this point: Microsoft is a Business. An what does this mean? Their obligations are to shareholders, not what you or I think is best. In that regard, they MUST do everything they can to ensure their flagship product, Windows, maintains domination of the marketplace.

I think if you were intelligent at all, you would do the exact same things as current MS management if you were in their shoes. You may think it's underhanded, but it's in Microsoft's best interests so that is all that matters.

It would be interesting to know how many people on here that bitch about MS actual hold mutual funds with significant positions in Microsoft. I bet it would be a lot larger than you think...

Re:Delusional

[callmetheraven]

If you've read the specs on the XO machines, you know that they're about as powerful as a mainstream desktop machine in about 1998.

Can you imagine how well M$'s uber-bloat OS's will run on these little boxen? If you asked me, let M$ put Windows on the XO, so that all the little children of the world can see that it's such a resource hog it converts your neato XO into a thrashing paperweight.

Re:Delusional

[jackhidary]

I am lucky enough to have one of the new XO laptops from olpc. this device is nothing short of revolutionary. more thoughtful design went into this object than the boeing 777. it is not just about the hardware. this software -with its many opportunities for kids to program and experiment - will lead to even further innovation. intel is acting like a lumbering elephant in its heavy-footed approach on this. sad but predictable. as for msft and the dual boot concept - i guarantee that kids will try windows once and reject it as slow, ponderous and inflexible. when you see the software on the linux boot you will not want to go back.

So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[Kazoo the Clown]

Microsoft may figure that if the OLPC can boot to either OS that users may end up preferring Windows over Linux. And for most users they may very well be correct. In addition, they will be able to more easily show off areas where Windows excels in comparison with Linux.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[SCHecklerX]

But the entire point of the OLPC is education. A computer that shows you its code, so you can learn and create with it. This is entirely the opposite of EVERYTHING M$ does. Programming aside, just being able to customize how you use the damned thing is difficult in Microsoft's world. They. don't. get. it.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[edwardpickman]

Don't worry Negroponte is no fool he's insisting they dual boot to a full copy of Vista.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[ChatHuant]

But the entire point of the OLPC is education. A computer that shows you its code, so you can learn and create with it.

That's a very Slashdotesque point of view and a good example of missing the forest because of one tree. You need to see the source only if you want the kid to become a programmer or maybe a sysadmin. The third world countries targeted by the OLPC have much higher and more urgent priorities. They need educated people in many other areas, not only programming. They need better, more knowledgeable farmers, workers, manufacturers, engineers, teachers, physicians, accountants, even managers and lawyers. Very, very few of the kids playing and learning now in those countries need bash or python. They do need however to learn how not to dig the outhouse near the well, how to avoid malaria, how to get more wheat out of their crops, how to start a business, how to sell their product in an increasingly globalized world. They need to learn how to access expertise already existing elsewhere, and they need to be able to do so easily. I'd argue that they even need to learn Windows, and thus get access to a whole variety of jobs where they use computers (non-programming positions, of course).

The source code is irrelevant for all those scenarios, which I believe are the core ones for the OLPC project.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[aweraw]

I'd argue that they even need to learn Windows

Do they _really_ need to learn Windows, or just basic computing concepts? I'd wager that the later is far more useful than learning a specific OS.

When you say the source code is irrelevent in all those "urgent priorities", I say that windows is also - The only requirement is that it displays graphics and text on the screen, so there's absolutly no reason I can see why they couldn't learn all those things with a non-Windows OS.

Re:So how could MS lose with this scenario?

[ChatHuant]

Do they _really_ need to learn Windows, or just basic computing concepts?

I'm not sure what you mean, but the discussion started with the "show source" requirement, so I'll assume you don't include everyday computer usage as a computer concept, even basic.

Here, on Slashdot, we tend to exaggerate the importance of computer knowledge. Basic computing concepts (such as the capability to read/write a program or a script) are needed for engineers, system administrators, certainly for programmers, and a few others. But there are *many* more jobs where familiarity with Windows and Office is useful or even essential, while knowledge of computing theory and programming (even at a basic level) is not. Familiarity with Excel may for example make the difference between being hired for a secretarial position or not. So yes, pragmatically speaking, learning how to *use* (not program) Windows could be more useful for a poor 3rd world kid than getting source code access.

The only requirement is that it displays graphics and text on the screen, so there's absolutly no reason I can see why they couldn't learn all those things with a non-Windows OS

Agreed - but that's a different issue. My argument was not OS related; I was saying that the usefulness of the OLPC is not given by the capability to see the source code.

Dual OS on laptop/pesktop

[anandpur]

Where is MS's "trade secret" agreement with Dell etc. that prohibits them from give option for other OS while selling MS Windows. They can sell different Ubuntu and Vista laptops/desktop but you can not choose between either OS on same laptop/desktop.

MS need dual boot on OLPC!

Of course MS embraces OSS

[EmbeddedJanitor]

Something like how a python does (snake, not the language).

There is nothing really new in this from the OLPC side, Negreponte has always wanted MS onboard. Any change of heart has been from the MS side. MS was rubbishing OLPC only a few months back.

XO is already dual-boot

[Minstrel Boy]

Even without the developer key to unlock OpenFirmware, the XO design supports booting an alternate OS by holding down a button during startup. I have Debian installed on mine.

KeS

Re:XO is already dual-boot

[Minstrel Boy]

Actually I don't use it very much. It has ended up being much simpler (four yum packages) to just install xfce on the XO Fedora build, and run it in place of Sugar as the window environment. I don't have a profound preference for debian vs Fedora, so it's easier to just leverage the XO kernel/userspace development. It's nice to know I *can* run an alternate OS if needed, but I don't find myself needing to do it as much as I anticipated.

KeS

Re:XO is already dual-boot

[Minstrel Boy]

(shrug)

What can I tell you? It's a documented part of the OpenFirmware in both the shipped and current upgrade version. I was able to install Debian by following a rather trivial set of directions on a XO without developer access. Note that some people are of the mistaken impression that dev access is required, but that is not the case: dev access is only needed to alter OpenFirmware settings or access the OF command prompt to specify arbitrary boot files. You can Google OLPC Debian and come up with the wiki page describing that install.

KeS

Dual-boot beta.

[fahrbot-bot]

Currently, the dual-boot beta system is an OLPC with a Dell XPS duct-taped to the back of it. To Boot Windows, you turn the thing over... A Microsoft spokes-droid stated that the beta solution only raises the cost "slightly", but won't give an exact figure.

Speed Considerations?

[jea6]

My boss got an XO through the B1G1 program and I found that it ran slowly. Can a stripped down version of XP perform reasonably on a platform that isn't designed for it?

Please don't do this.

[lazyforker]

I only hope this is total BS. The last thing this project needs is "help" from M$FT. The XO is a fine product and well-suited to its purpose: a platform to introduce people to technology, programming, etc. Nothing but the imagination, ingenuity and creativity of a child is needed. The only reason Microsoft are interested is that they want to poison the minds of the XO owners. Asshats.

First Intel attempted, and now Microsoft is trying to torpedo this project because they realize it's a threat to their future markets. Imagine a whole generation of Linux-schooled programmers writing the next killer apps, or buying last year's hardware to run Linux desktops (or servers!) - now imagine how Wintel feel about that.

Re:Please don't do this.

[Locutus]

If Microsoft can delay this project for a year or two, they'll have done a great job at killing it. No extension to the G1G1 is going to provide enough cash to keep the project going without some large contracts.

Combine that with how Intel and Microsoft are paying original OLPC customers to go Classmate PC with Windows and you've got another project with its air supply being cut off. This project is far cheaper to kill off then say Netscape was. It's a non-profit so there's not much cash for it to to begin with. Unless someone like Google or AMD decide they'd better step in and provide the marketing money keep it going.

Anyways, I don't see putting Windows on the XO as anything but a ploy to destroy it. That is how they address ever other threat so this one should be no different. Well, unless they buy out Negroponte and Linux and OSS is totally removed from all XO devices delivered. THAT option is the only one Bill and Microsoft would accept and still allow the project to continue. IMO.

LoB

Why, again, is Windows desirable for this market?

[OgGreeb]

I'm not sure I get it. Regardless of whatever discount Microsoft will provide, Windows costs more than Linux, needs more hardware resources to run properly, requires more and deeper technical support, is highly susceptible to malware and, for the intended audience (children aged 8-16 in technology-under served poor communities) either overkill or harder to work with in general. It's not just the OS, either. Many of the third-party programming and application tools that come bundled with the Sugar/Linux environment cost more with the Windows OS. The only semi-cogent argument I've heard supporting Windows being deployed in this environment is that the children will somehow be disadvantaged when they grow up and take on jobs that will use Windows. Meanwhile there is every indication that the primary office tasks expected of any information worker (word processing, spreadsheet, Internet browsing and communications) will be migrating to Web-based appliances in the near future, almost certainly by the time the kids are ready to move into those jobs, and further diminishing any value of using Windows as the OS.

To my mind, Windows seems like an expensive and unneeded distraction for these children.

OLPC-capable version of Windows

[xgr3gx]

OLPC-capable version of Windows = Windows 2000

Eww

[starfishsystems]

The OLPC project, as originally conceived, had huge collaborative potential. Put an open platform into the hands of many, many people. Let them figure out what direction they want to take it.

Close that platform, and suddenly it makes no sense at all. It's no longer an extensible means of cultural and technological expression but just another consumer product, good for nothing more than keeping the Third World in its place, right at the bottom.

Thanks, Microsoft, for staying in character.

Re:Eww

[jiushao]

Yes, we should do everything we can to let people take their own direction. Except give them the option of running Microsoft software. Because we certainly can't have people going around making choices we don't like now can we?

Re:Eww

[starfishsystems]

A choice to drink the Kool-Aid is not much of a choice. Especially if the drinker isn't in the position to understand that it's been poisoned.

Re:Why, again, is Windows desirable for this marke

[paxgaea]

"The only semi-cogent argument I've heard supporting Windows being deployed in this environment is that the children will somehow be disadvantaged when they grow up and take on jobs that will use Windows."

As far as I am concerned, you touched on THE key point as to why Microsoft thinks it is a good idea (in fact, they should view it as near essential to their survival in these areas of the world) to work with the OLPC. If you have a generation of children who grow up knowing open source operating systems and software inside and out, there is no need for Microsoft, at home, in their offices, anywhere. These countries will not touch Microsoft products within a generation, because it will not be 'the coin of the realm', since the entire technical portion of their economy will only know open source....unless of course if Microsoft gets a foothold, and the OLPC is a good place to start.

Pretty damn good business decision, very forward-thinking (in a 'there is profit to be made here' sorta way), if you ask me. How many companies do you know that think 2 decades into the future. Most operate with short term gain in mind.

I personally think it is a bad thing overall, but who am I to deny the 'children' their right to choice? (don't do it kids! it's a scam!)

I wonder what

[aegl]

the "SHOW SOURCE" key on the OLPC will do when Windows is running?

OLPC Principles compromised???????

[haroldag]

Excuse me, but I am confused. From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olpc

OLPC espouses five core principles:

1. Child ownership
2. Low ages. The hardware and software are designed for elementary school children aged 6-12.
3. Saturation
4. Connection
5. Free and open source

How is this free and open source? Are these principles that flexible?

I guess MSFT isn't behind intel

[blitzkrieg3]

I guess that rules out this theory.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[Locutus]

There is nothing preventing an XO laptop from running a very trimmed down version of Windows (XP, CE, whatever) and supplying applications that can have their source code available.

Sure there is, it's called Microsoft's desire to stop open source software. In Microsoft's eye( Sauron ) there can be no existing with OSS. Any statements of cooperation and the like are misdirection since publicly stating the goal of ending any love between corporations/businesses and OSS would harm their existing position in the market. IMO.

LoB

Windows kills the OLPC

[gillbates]

The problem with installing Windows on the OLPC is that it destroys the original purpose of the device: to educate children about how computers work. With Windows:

• They won't be able to see the source code, to figure out how it works.
• Or, if they are allowed to see the source code, they will be never be able to work in the OS/Office Suite/whatever market.
• They won't learn computer science, or even proper programming practices. They'll come to believe that writing bug-free code is impossible, and that every computer crashes from time to time. They'll learn that viruses are a normal part of owning a computer.

If Windows goes on the OLPC, the project has failed. It's that simple.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[sracer]

Why not? Most of those posting anti-MS comments seem to think that if any version of Windows makes it to the XO, then MS will completely control the whole shebang. For some reason I don't think that would happen with OLPC. And as much as many applaud the selection of Linux as the underlying OS, I think that GEOS would've been better. I'm trying to get DOS booted on my XO to see how Geoworks Ensemble (or New Deal Office) would run. Performance-wise, it should run MORE swiftly than WinXP does on the latest and greatest hardware.

And so the stupidity spreads.

[delire]

It's reasonably likely the OLPC will become a Windows-only machine in short time.

It will start with older children assuming Windows looks more 'serious' and grown up, like the computers people in images and movies they see online use. Governments will be taught to prefer Windows on the basis of it being more 'competitive' because Windows is "more like" what people in wealthier economies use.

The result of this is that more kids will learn to be bored by computers and computing, believing that they are opaque appliances with western graphic metaphors (what's a 'desktop' to someone that's never sat at a desk?) that seem to get slow over time. Just a small segment of the truly curious seeking alternative operating systems. Governments that bought the machines will wonder what went wrong when they see little or no innovation in the IT sector yet a massive outsourcing industry to faltering IT giants like the U.S.

Negroponte has always wanted to work with Microsoft on his terms. Windows will certainly enjoy a long and prosperous life.

Negroponte, you're being an idiot.

Why can;t the rest of us have the version?

[xs650]

The version that's up and running of Windows on the XO is very fast, it's very, very successful. We're working very hard to do both," said Nicholas Negroponte, chairman of OLPC.
Why can't the rest of us have Windows that works like that?

Simple.

[Narcocide]

... and later, should a service pack "accidentally" sabotage the boot process for the open source operating systems on the machine leaving clueless young users assuming that its a "Linux problem" and turning to the "more reliable" Windows for basic communication... no I don't see any way they could profit from this at all.

Re:Not all code needs to be made visible

[webmaster404]

Why not? Most of those posting anti-MS comments seem to think that if any version of Windows makes it to the XO, then MS will completely control the whole shebang.

But isn't that what MS has done with computers until 2 or so years ago? Until 2 years ago or so, it was nearly impossible to go to a major manufacturer such as Dell and the like and get a computer with a non-MS OS on it. Whats to say that the OLPC won't turn out this way? With Intel leaving, OLPC needs cash, MS has a lot of cash, if MS for the next model of computers by the OLPC decide to pay OLPC say 50 million if they ship with Windows CE on them rather then Linux, how are they to complain? It always starts out small with MS, then before any non-geek knows it, MS controls it. If OLPC turns to MS, you can bet that freedom will get restricted.

Re: Dual Boot Tricks

[TaoPhoenix]

Could MS sneak a trick in whereupon when it loads Windows it sabotages something that the Linux boot needs, so when someone runs them back to back, the Linux install tanks?

In the seven seconds of space when a nasty salesman is spreading FUD about the Linux half, even a Linux expert might not find the poison pill in time for the emotional hysterics to win the day.

Maybe this would be a use for stray batches of Vista code.

And they turned Apple down ...

[Udo Schmitz]

Anyone else remembers how they turned down Steve Jobs' offer of a free Mac OS X?

"Apple offered free licenses of Mac OS X for MIT's proposed $100 laptop initiative, however, the proposal offered by Apple's CEO Steve Jobs was declined because the program was looking for open-source software [...]"

Uhuh, yeah, right ...