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Super Soaker Inventor Hopes to Double Solar Efficiency
mattnyc99 writes "With top geeks saying photovoltaic cells are still four years away from costing as much as the grid, and the first U.S. thermal power plant just getting into production, there's plenty of solar hype without any practical solution that's efficient enough. Until Lonnie Johnson came along. The man who invented the Super Soaker water gun turns out to be a nuclear engineer who's developed a solid-state heat engine that converts the sun's heat to electricity at 60-percent efficiency—double the rate of the next most successful solar process. And his innovation, called the Johnson Thermoelectric Energy Conversion (JTEC) system, is getting funding from the National Science Foundation, so this is no toy. From the article: 'If it proves feasible, drastically reducing the cost of solar power would only be a start. JTEC could potentially harvest waste heat from internal combustion engines and combustion turbines, perhaps even the human body. And no moving parts means no friction and fewer mechanical failures.'"
Energy efficient photovoltaic cells is fun and all, but clearly he's better qualified to invent nuclear powered Super Soakers.
And I think I speak for all of the geek fraternity when I say we'd prefer them over some poxy solar panels.
http://twitter.com/onion2k
The upside is that- like the Super Soaker- these panels will be far more efficient than their weedy predecessors.
The downside is that- like the Super Soaker- they'll only be available in eye-searingly garish combinations of purple, red and fluorescent green and yellow.
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It may be "oxidized" as in the opposite to "reduced". See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redox
(I haven't RTFA to figure out for sure, but if they're talking "hydrogen" on one side of a reaction and "proton/electron" on the other, it seems plausible on first blush.)
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On the other hand, there aren't many solar processes that really qualify as "efficient" so he doesn't have to work all that hard to double them.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
I can guarantee that the water wasted from super soakers is nowhere near the amount wasted by poorly aimed sprinklers watering cement.
I want to know more about the principle on which these work, but if they work and can me made inexpensively, they will be found absolutely everywhere where there is waste heat. Couldn't the go under photovoltaic cells - since they convert heat and not light, they could just use the temperature differential between the hot black cells and the surroundings?
Most energy loss in an ICE is from Air Compression and valvetrain loss?
I would think that most of it would be because combustion is a woefully inefficient way of raising air pressure. Air compression should not be causing too much loss because that energy can be largely recovered on the power stroke. (except for ring blow-by (minimal) and compression-related-heat soaking into the cyl. wall) Valvetrain loss should only be due to cam friction (which is reduced by oil), as the energy required to compress the valve springs should be mostly returned when the valves are released.
SirWired
By that logic geothermal power plants wouldn't exist.
Literalism isn't a form of humor, it's you being irritating.
The article doesn't say the device is good for 60%, it states IF they are able to design it to work with with high-temperature ceramics, and IF it is able to reach 600C, then CARNOT efficiency is 60%, of which this device will obtain some fraction.
I didn't see any details on how this is any better than century-old heat engine ideas, unless the solid state design allows dirt cheap mass production, in which case he might be onto something...
I hope that it was an under-educated writer talking about harvesting waste human-body heat, and not the NSF or the inventor.
Harvesting waste heat from a 98-degree human operating in even a 30 degree environment is only 13% efficient, at maximum. I just don't see it being real useful to try and harvest waste heat from an ICE or turbine. If a power-plant turbine had useful exhaust steam, they would already be using it to turn another turbine I expect.
The fact it has no moving parts is nice, but how high could the efficiency possibly go?
SirWired
Normally I would agree with you here and while IANAP (Physicist) I think you are not interpreting what he is saying properly.
He's not saying he found a more efficient solar cell (a doubling of that would be high on the BS scale). He is stating that he has created a new evolution of the Stirling Engine http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine.
From what I've read he looks to be on the up and up but again IANAP. Obviously since he has yet to have a production model we need to take it with a grain of salt but it looks very promising. *Crosses fingers*
We have four boxes with which to defend our freedom: the soap box, the ballot box, the jury box, and the cartridge box.
As I understand it, there's only a violation if that someone claims they can use ALL of the heat to do work (thermal efficiency of 1). If some heat is still being dispersed into a cooler temperature environment, it's still perfectly doable. After all, are you going to tell me you can't use waste heat from the ICE to heat up some water?
I'm not an expert in the subject (I'm an electrical engineer, so I've only gotten very basic freshman-level introductions to the laws of thermodynamics), but I think there's a well-known upper bound to how efficient recovery of heat to do work can be. Some googling led to wikipedia which tells me that upper bound is the efficiency of the Carnot Cycle. Apparently it's not quite possible to reach it, but you're not violating thermodynamics if you're below it.
Warning: Opinions known to be heavily biased.
IOW, you still need a constant heat source. TFA mentions that they're working on a 200 degree C version, and managed to get their prototype going w/ 60% efficiency if the temp is at 600 degrees C... TFA also mentions that current solar furnaces can jack out around 800 degree C heat when you have a shitload of parabolic mirrors pointing at your boiler.
Overall, you're still taking in heat (read: energy) from an external source, so there's (from the looks of it) no cheating going on here.
Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
well your bs detector was good to be at high alert.
Currently he has a working prototype that operates at 200 degrees centigrade. the theory implies that at 600 degrees it would achieve 60% efficiencies, existing solar (parabolic mirror based solar electric plants) operate at 800 degrees. since he has a system that works at 200 centigrade, it is not a massive power plant sized unit, that would need to be stable and still work in the 600-800 degree range. if his invention only works at 200 degrees centigrade, then it will never replace convention solar power models. but there are still many potential uses for a 200 degree centigrade model, such as using 'waste heat' from existing power plants to create 'more electricity' with less fuel.
so yeah, i wouldn't hold my breath on this 'still working' at 600 degrees when the guy who invented it hasn't gotten to those temperatures yet.
https://www.gnu.org/philosophy/free-sw.html
Because I am a liberal who is concerned about social justice, I get excited by technologies that could be used to increase energy consumption by folks who are lower on the socio-economic ladder. Increased use of energy consumption for things like refrigeration, home heating, and personal car transportation is something I don't think should be reserved for the upper classes. Inventions that lower the cost of personal energy consumption are worthy of attention and disproportionate investment from fair minded progressives.
Way to mis-quote. According to TFA, that's the first solar thermal MANUFACTURING plant... As in, they make the equipment. There are several U.S. solar thermal power plants, dating back to the 70s.
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Well, evidently you're not American or you'd understand where I'm coming from, and in any event you've succeeded in demonstrating the validity of my comment.
Wherever you're from, I hope it's raining.
The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
In particular, with nuclear power plants AND geo-thermal. Our power plants dump loads of energy to the environment. This may possibly help with using more of that energy.
Perhaps more important would be geo-thermal. It does not say what the temp differences need to be, but if it can work on ~ 100 degree difference, then this is the answer for the large number of dried up oil wells that have loads of heat down there. The big problem for USA is that we have a large number of wells where the max temp is ~170F. We could hook up a solar heater to carry it up in temp, but if this works, then it will enable these old wells to be re-used and new ones to be drilled.
I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
An interesting anagram of "BANACH TARSKI" is "BANACH TARSKI BANACH TARSKI"
That's a nice theory, but it doesn't actually work in practice.
There is a limit to how much water is naturally evaporated from the ocean each year (far, far less than we're dumping into it) and rained down onto solid ground. There is a limit to how quickly water absorbed by the soil will leech down into the aquifers it was drawn from (it takes centuries) and that's where most of our water supplies comes from.
And as for location, there's no place on earth where the rainfall would possibly exceed the needs of a densely packed urban population, without conservation. The troubles Atlanta is having are just a start. Being located in the desert merely brings the problem to the forefront more quickly.
Look at the farm-packed interior of the US, and you'll find ridiculous quantities of water being used, all drawn from a gigantic aquifer, which is now being dramatically drawn down, with no sign of replenishment. You're welcome to go tell them they're just imagining it, when they run out of water supplies.
I'd gamble that, over the next decade, cities all across the US will have to begin copying the water conservation measures that have long been in-use in the southwest. And if they don't, the cost of water is going to go through the roof, as the expense for finding new supplies, and building new recycling facilities, goes through the roof.
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It uses a temperature differential to produce energy but in this case the differential is created by solar energy heating one end rather than burying one end in the earth and the energy seems to be converted directly into electricity rather than steam to turn a turbine to create electricity. Clever, if it works.
TFA Talks about pressurized hydrogen gas being diffused across a membrane(s) but it does not mention where the hydrogen gas is coming from. Now, I am NOT a physicist, but unless he has found a new and low cost way to obtain free hydrogen H2 gas then I doubt that his engine will be a substantial improvement over existing technologies since hydrogen gas is generally very energy intensive to separate from water or other reactions. Another problem is that hydrogen gas, particularly hydrogen gas under pressure, is extremely corrosive. It tends to want to diffuse through or undermine the integrity of any material that you attempt to contain it with. This is the reason why hydrogen gas, even though it is the most efficient known working fluid for Stirling Engines is typically not used (Helium or Nitrogen is generally used instead or even just plain air). The difficulty and expense of separating and then containing the hydrogen gas within the engine is just not worth the trouble for the modest gain in efficiency over alternative working gases in Stirling engines. Perhaps someone with more background in physics can explain how the engine in TFA is different and solves these problems?
No, I was merely pointing out that "oxidized" doesn't have to mean "oxygen" or "that crud you think of on old metal", that in fact there is a technical meaning to the term the average software engineer who took one freshman level science course a decade ago -- which may not have even been chemistry -- might not connect with. Ionization and oxidation/reduction are in fact closely related terms, which the wikipedia link was meant to illustrate. If you compare the two entries ("Redox" and "Ionization"), I think you'll see the connection. Describing the process as oxidation and the effect as ionization is not a priori incorrect.
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As I read it, the hydrogen is cycled between the hot and cold sides of the cell. You don't need any more than the initial charge, just like the refrigerant in an air conditioner.
What actually happens is the hydrogen is ionized, meaning the protons which make up the nucleus of hydrogen are separated from the electrons. The protons pass through a proton-permeable membrane and flow to the cold side through a tube. The electrons are collected by anodes and forced to travel through an electrical load to the other side in order to recombine with the protons.
I'm honestly not sure of the specific details beyond that. I suspect hydrogen is used because it consists of only a proton and an electron. No pesky neutrons getting in the way and sapping energy with their mass without contributing a charge. I have no idea how they deal with hydrogen embrittlement or anything like that, because I suspect it would be a worse problem dealing with ionized hydrogen, but it may be a surmountable one.
Based on how little information there is on the webpage, I'm guessing this project isn't very far along. At face value it sounds technically feasible, but I'll wait until they start reporting actual performance data to get excited about it.
This device runs on the same principle as a Stirling engine and it shares the same theoretical efficiency: (Hot temp) / (Hot + Cold temp), all in Kelvins.
According to TFA, their first prototype is limited to 200*c because of material concerns. If they were to draw ice-cold water from the deep ocean as the cold side, it could theoretically acheive 473 / (473 + 273) or 63% efficiency. They talk about future materials allowing a hot side of 600*c, which despite being nearly twice the absolute temperature would only raise theoretical efficiency to 76%. Some sort of exotic oxide ceramic that could run at 1500 or 2000K would only add another 10% or so.
What fraction of that efficiency this or other engines acheive depends on the design. I believe the most efficient toy stirling engines can reach 90-96% of Carnot efficiency.
I live in Melbourne, the 2nd largest city in Australia. Australia has incredibly low population density, yet where the number one issue on everyone - including the everyday mums and dads - is water.
For the last 3-4+ years we've been on water restrictions such as:
- Can only water garden between 6 and 8am, only on 2 days a week (depending on street number). Must use a trigger nozzled hose. Cannot water grass. With the exception of One in every FOUR sporting grounds.
- Cars cannot be washed at home, only at a commercial venue where they recycle water. Bucket can be used to remove spot corrosion.
- Cannot fill new or existing pools or spas. Topping up can be done with a bucket or watering can only.
So you see, when you say you cannot 'waste' water, I wonder what in the world we're doing all this for, because clearly your knowledge is greater than our own.Yes, the total water amount on this planet may be constant - but only 0.3% of this is accessible fresh water (not counting glaciers, ice caps and ground water). And this isn't where we want it.
Hmm... maybe you're right. Maybe I should leave Australia, and move to some other place, just because our climate patterns have been changing over the last 10 years (gee, I wonder how that happened) such that we now have no water...
Generally the waste heat from ice I use cools the water. Im interested in this use of ice to heat it up though ;)
srry, just had to do it
Tm
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This is why turbochargers are often used on high performance engines - it extracts extra energy from the exhaust flow and thereby raises the thermodynamic efficiency of the whole package. Typical exhaust gas temperatures (at the exhaust manifold) are on the order of 1500 degrees F, which is hot enough to do lots of work.
Less is more.
The larger the temperature difference, the more efficient a theoretically 'perfect' plant can be. This is also true for real world plants, though engineering limits often restrict how high of a temperature they can sustain and use.
Different technologies are differently capable at different temperature ranges - If this process is cheap enough and can get good results from a 'mere' 100 degree or so temperature difference, it can indeed increase the efficiency of many heat plants.
I don't read AC A human right
The Kalina cycle engine uses an ammonia+water mixture as its working fluid for that reason. Also, the reference in that article claims the mixture boils at a range of temperatures instead of at a specific point, but does not say why.
I'm not talking about the US. Have you ever traveled to a country with a low standard of living?
Your math is slightly off. Carnot's theorem gives the max efficiency as (Th - Tc) / (Th), or (200 / 473) = 42%. That is, the fraction of the energy you can remove is exactly equal to the fraction of the temperature you can remove. Plugging in 873 for Th (aka 600C) and 300K Tc (a very good radiator), I get 65%, which is on par with TFA's 60% number.
The interesting question is how close to theoretical they can get...
Issued 1 year ago, this patent describes this system in great detail. I am doubtful it can work. The electric current out of the hot end of the device is less than or equal to the current in to the cold end (since the H circulates and each passage thru either side consumes or generates one electron). To create more electric power out than goes in, the proton exchange membrane would have to create significantly higher voltages at high temperature than at low temperature. But I believe the membrane voltage is pretty much limited to the ionization potential of H, and that is not going to change significantly over temperature). Lonnie Johnson sort of weasel-words around this in column 4 lines 30-50 of the patent body. This glossing over of detail is, to me, the most damning evidence (I am a PhD physicist with 89 issued US patents).
May his efforts be more wholesome than the supersoaker oozinator. Cuz that's just wrong.
Kwisatz Haderach
Sell the spice to CHOAM
This Mahdi took Shaddam's Throne
It's a popular concept in some circles: Use affordable high-tech devices to let folks in the developing world have a better life.
An example are cell phones. They've brought connectivity to folks in even isolated villages who could not dream of getting a land line.
Or the "life straw," a simple, cheap, but high-tech gadget that filters the filth and germs from streams. It's literally a straw.
Or a simple solar-charged LED light. Hang it outside your hut in the day, bring it in at night so the kids can study or mom can make extra money doing piecework.
A sturdy, self-contained solar electrical generator could act as an adjunct for a decentralized high-tech low-budget infrastructure. You'd use it to charge cell phones, XO Laptops (and their adult equivalent), and so on.
If he is getting NSF funding then his stuff has survived an NSF peer review panel or more. I work at NSF and I can tell you that scientists that sit on NSF panels (BTW they don't work for NSF but are asked to come) don't have a habit of rubber stamping stuff they think is BS. The Ego's involved don't allow it. If it is truly worth funding then some serious people have looked at his proposal and the science behind it.
You beat me to it. The Seattle Tacoma metro area has some 3 million people in it, and most of them are served with rain run off from several river systems. Most of our power is hydro as well, also fed by rain. The same is true for Portland Or, which has close to 1M people in the metro area. Vancouver BC would be another example.
I was taught to respect my elders. The trouble is, it's getting harder and harder to find some.
It says it is more efficient than Stirling engines, but I wonder if it is more efficient than a full blown solar steam plant.
However, I suppose it doesn't have to be if it can be used in confined areas.
The Stirling engine was the first thing I thought of when I read the description. The Stirling engine is very inefficient in practice and lacks any real world power, but considering when it was first invented it was a brilliant idea. It's about time someone went back to look at old ideas that were discarded to see if modern day technology can make the unfeasible feasible.
This is probably better classified as a Solid State Stirling Engine (err, electrical generator).
Cool stuff either way.
If a power-plant turbine had useful exhaust steam, they would already be using it to turn another turbine I expect.
They are, with what's called a "bottoming cycle" that uses the steam that exits the low pressure turbine to heat a mixture of ammonia and water that boils below the boiling point of water alone, thus raising the working pressure enough to turn an additional turbine. This bottoming cycle is also known as the Kalina cycle, and is in use at combined cycle gas turbine plants (where the hot exhaust from a gas turbine is used to make steam to run another turbine).
> well your bs detector was good to be at high alert.
:)
[snip]
> so yeah, i wouldn't hold my breath on this 'still working' at 600 degrees when the guy who
> invented it hasn't gotten to those temperatures yet.
How negative can you get?
This is not "fusion in a jam jar"; unlike that debacle, this guy's homepage explains the process in terms of well-understood theory. I haven't done any engineering thermodynamics since university, but it sounds believeable. No pretty cycle diagrams to help me, though; experts may say different.
Peer review pending, Mr Johnson seems to have discovered a phenomenon that harnesses known laws of physics in a new way, i.e. this is new *science*. Thermodynamic theory says that the the potential efficiency can only increase with temperature, so expanding the operating envelope (e.g. raising/lowering the temperature limits) is probably a "simple" matter of development, new materials, etc; i.e. technology, and time.
The potential to reclaim waste heat has enormous implications; but even where JTECs can't compete on efficiency, other factors such as low-zero maintenance and reduced costs could make this a desirable technology. For example, elimination of steam turbines would make even classic power generation cheaper, while simultaneously increasing the safety of nuclear power specifically. Nuclear fusion immediately becomes more viable, too.
Another beauty of this system is that it's viral - its introduction can be staggered, maximising the efficiency and useful life of existing capital investment. No need to replace your local power station, just stick a JTEC on the waste heat output line...and refit those ugly cooling towers for alternative duty, e.g. a warehouse (or simply sell off the real estate!).
JTECs could revolutionise space exploration, too; the extremely sharp differential between heat/cold outside our atmosphere is an environment that's ideal for any kind of heat pump. Increase the amount of power available to a space mission and you increase its capability proportionally. Moonbase Alpha, anyone?
Make no mistake; the possibilities of this are HUGE, much bigger than implied in TFA.
C