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Origin of the iPhone

rambilly brings us a story from Wired about the origin and development of the iPhone. From the article: "Steve Jobs had tasked about 200 of Apple's top engineers with creating the iPhone. Yet here, in Apple's boardroom, it was clear that the prototype was still a disaster. It wasn't just buggy, it flat-out didn't work. The phone dropped calls constantly, the battery stopped charging before it was full, data and applications routinely became corrupted and unusable. The list of problems seemed endless. At the end of the demo, Jobs fixed the dozen or so people in the room with a level stare and said, 'We don't have a product yet.' The effect was even more terrifying than one of Jobs' trademark tantrums. When the Apple chief screamed at his staff, it was scary but familiar. This time, his relative calm was unnerving. 'It was one of the few times at Apple when I got a chill,' says someone who was in the meeting."

230 comments

  1. Dupetastic! by appleguru · · Score: 4, Informative

    While, granted, this article has a much more fitting title than the last, this is a bloody dupe from yesterday!

    1. Re:Dupetastic! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not even close to a dupe - the former article you linked to talks about the effect the iPhone had on the cell phone industry when it was released. This one talks about the trials and tribulations of the iPhone in development. The only thing that is a dupe is that it involves the iPhone.

    2. Re:Dupetastic! by appleguru · · Score: 5, Funny

      Check again... they're two entirely different summaries of the exact same Wired article.

    3. Re:Dupetastic! by RuBLed · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes... and the GP is wrong because nobody here RTFA. I'm so going to submit this link and put a story on how lemurs eat eagles during the jurrasic period...

    4. Re:Dupetastic! by JustOK · · Score: 3, Funny

      does it explain why the lemurs didn't wait until the lunch period to eat the eagles? Plus, I don't really think they did eat the eagles because didn't they just have a new album?

      --
      rewriting history since 2109
    5. Re:Dupetastic! by lemur3 · · Score: 1

      I AM OFFENDED. I love eagles more than the next lemur. Please. Do not put us in such a bad light.

    6. Re:Dupetastic! by Guppy · · Score: 1

      I'm afraid the answer varies depending on if they were African or European Eagles -- in particular, due to their relative airspeeds when carrying coconuts as decoys (lunches, not albums, of course). A sensible precaution on their part, considering their predator's excellent eyesight and ability to gain flying for 0 mana and -1/-0 until end of turn.

  2. Spine Tingling by AlphaDrake · · Score: 2, Funny

    The other time he got a chill?

    The second Windows was successfully put on a mac. 0_0

  3. Compulsory... by jmpeax · · Score: 5, Funny

    Tantrum? Real men throw chairs!

    1. Re:Compulsory... by nawcom · · Score: 1

      bah!! looks like i got here too late to make the Balmer reference. oh well. Good job :)

    2. Re:Compulsory... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I guess he was waiting for them to finish the iChair.

    3. Re:Compulsory... by Wiseman1024 · · Score: 1

      What a great idea! The Apple iChair. Sit different. A chair for classy metrosexual fanboys to use their obscenely overpriced iMacs and listen to their defective by design and obscenely overpriced iPods while on it. Even farts smell stylish if thrown on the iChair.

      Only $1000.

      --
      I was about to say 13256278887989457651018865901401704640, but it appears this number is private property.
  4. gulp by Smartcowboy · · Score: 2, Funny

    This article reads like one from Reader's Digest.

  5. dupe by jonpublic · · Score: 1, Redundant

    hey its a dupe

    1. Re:dupe by jonpublic · · Score: 3, Insightful

      its hilarious slashdot has a script to tag when a reply is a duplicate, but no script to stop duplicate stories on the front page.

    2. Re:dupe by McGiraf · · Score: 5, Funny

      it's really funny, Slashdot has a script to tag reply duplicates, but not duplicates articles on the front page.

    3. Re:dupe by McGiraf · · Score: 1

      See? you get it now? ;)

    4. Re:dupe by zymurgyboy · · Score: 1

      BS. If any site should have the wherewithall to right scripts to detect near duplicates, it should be Slashdot. It's not a new concept. These days, it de riguer in electronic discovery data processing and probably a bunch of other fields.

      --
      If you never make mistakes, it's probably because you're not doing anything.
    5. Re:dupe by BattleApple · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      The links aren't exactly the same, this one has a query string containing "currentPage=all" - the other one doesn't. A script wouldn't really be able to tell if there were multiple articles on the same page and the query string was there to automatically scroll down to the relevant article or something like that.

  6. Mobile Development by wombatmobile · · Score: 3, Insightful

    TFA describes how Jobs and co. designed a great device, and makes the point that traditional mobile phone handset businesses has been stifled and denied the opportunity to innovate by network operators.

    It is nice that Apple is innovating, and computing on telephone platforms is advancing.

    But progress may still be limited by network operators for the time being because to deploy software or services, providers have to go through the network operators.

    And to consume services, consumers must first access the networks through the network operators.

    Round 1 to Apple with the iphone. Round 2 is software and services.

    Can innovation in software and services flourish despite network operators trying to gatekeep and tax all revenue opportunities whether they understand them or not?
    1. Re:Mobile Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Is it me or does parent post look randomly generated?

    2. Re:Mobile Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Informative

      > It is nice that Apple is innovating,

      They are not. Everything the iphone does has been available in Europe for the better part of a decade.

    3. Re:Mobile Development by Johnno74 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      But progress may still be limited by network operators for the time being because to deploy software or services, providers have to go through the network operators.


      I don't believe this is a risk, at least everywhere except the US. I have a sybian phone, I can install whatever I like on it, without going through the teleco's network. Plenty of applications use web access on the phone just like apps on a regular PC - things like web browsers, chat apps, SSH, youtube, google maps, etc etc. I've even seen a web server for my phone. I've seen VoIP clients for my phone.

      The teleco is just an ISP. We stil have network neutrality, and thats not likely to change. Yes, my teleco has their own lame walled garden of websites that you can browse for free, and download wallpapers and ringtones for an outrageous price - but there is nothing stopping customers (except stupidity) from going to a regular website and downloading the ringtones, wallpapers, 3rd party apps and whatever.
    4. Re:Mobile Development by Joe+Tie. · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That excuse always got me as well. While I have my beefs with windows mobile, it's been around for ages and is far more open than the iphone. Not only can I write for it in pretty much any language I want, I can even use most of the same toolkits I'd use for desktop development. Heck, I can use most of the toolkits and libraries that I use for desktop development on linux. And yet somehow satellites haven't been falling from the sky as a result.

      --
      Everything will be taken away from you.
    5. Re:Mobile Development by ardin,mcallister · · Score: 1

      Fail. you can just use hidemyass.com to see all the pictures.
      Parent is a troll.

      --
      "Some men just want to watch the world burn..."
    6. Re:Mobile Development by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      Except for the multi-touch display. I don't think it is worth that amount only for such a display technology... So, definitely no iPhone for me. There are better phones at lower price-point.

    7. Re:Mobile Development by Johnno74 · · Score: 1

      Yeah I was tempted to get a pocketpc because the development environment (.net CF) is so damn good, and I'm a .net dude in my day job.

      But in the end I got a nokia 6110 navigator. The phenomenal ease of use of the nokia phones, plus a pretty good GPS kept me in the nokia camp.

      I could in theory write S60 apps, but thats all C++ which I'm not very familiar with, and I've heard its a bitch of a development environment, compared to VS.

    8. Re:Mobile Development by cthellis · · Score: 1, Troll

      Excepting, of course, the robust OS, the user interface, the clean entire package, the quick and seamless merging of multimedia and communications services, the stability, the partnership with cell providers rather than slavery to...

    9. Re:Mobile Development by Moonpie+Madness · · Score: 3, Interesting

      My Sony Ericsson seems to have a pretty decent OS, user interface, clean package, and seamless multimedia. It's not partnered with cell providers in any meaningful way... but why the hell would I want that?

      And my phone came free with my cell phone plan. It holds 8 gbs. Right now, two movies and thousands of songs and hundreds of pictures. It can transfer content very easily to virtually any device that accepts bluetooth, IR, takes a memory stick, or has a USB port. I can put any software on it I like very easily, and Sony provides free programs on the internet. I don't have to download any of it over my cell connection.

      Now, emailing on this little pad is kinda crappy, but it is also crappy on the iphone. I can get internet on my Ericsson, and it transfers to my laptop. I can leave the phone in my pocket and have a decent connection wherever I go.

      In short, the points you mention are just whispy little nice things you could say about nearly anything electronic these days. None of it explains why the iphone is so trendy. The iphone is a great device solely because of its touch-screen innovations, and it's nice and large screen. That's it (but that can be a lot if you like that stuff). The interface is fine. But that's a minimal standard. The interfaces on most devices in that price range is fine. That lack of tactile sucks, but it's just matter of prioritizing. IF you send a lot of emails, you should get something else. If you like gorgeous and new tech and watching your photos, etc, wherever you go, the iphone is cool. I personally think the Sony is better at music and OS, but that's just taste.

    10. Re:Mobile Development by deitrahs · · Score: 2, Funny
      I have a sybian phone,

      that's one hell of a vibrate setting you've got there...

    11. Re:Mobile Development by msdschris · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A real sybian phone?
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sybian
      How exciting.

    12. Re:Mobile Development by h4ck7h3p14n37 · · Score: 1

      TFA describes how Jobs and co. designed a great device, and makes the point that traditional mobile phone handset businesses has been stifled and denied the opportunity to innovate by network operators.

      Is anyone else reminded of the bad old days on the traditional telephone network where you had to lease your phone from Ma Bell? Third party devices were not allowed on the network which meant that Ma Bell had no incentive to either improve their phones or lower the cost.

      from, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carterphone_decision

      The 1968 Federal Communications Commission allowed the Carterfone and other devices to be connected directly to the AT&T network, as long as they did not cause damage to the system. This ruling (13 F.C.C.2d 420) created the possibility of selling devices that could connect to the phone system and opened up the market to numerous products, including answering machines, fax machines, cordless phones, computer modems and the early, dialup Internet.

      It sounds to me like the wireless carriers are simply repeating those mistakes.

    13. Re:Mobile Development by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      that's not the point. the point is, thisbitch.info is a spamming game (and a better one than myshittycity), and I won. in fact, my current score is 215.

    14. Re:Mobile Development by been42 · · Score: 1
      I don't believe this is a risk, at least everywhere except the US. I have a sybian phone, I can install whatever I like on it...

      Please...never, ever answer your Sybian phone if we're both in the same room...

  7. Well I can understand... by AndGodSed · · Score: 1

    ...that they panicked. They obviously spent tons of cash on the development of this product, and not only that - their image would have taken a nasty knock, and apple is all about image anyway. (Not that they make bad products, Image is one of their products features.)

    1. Re:Well I can understand... by philpalm · · Score: 1

      That they didn't panic because some of those problems were small bugs. When they came to introducing the internet over a phone they had to compromise out flash files which to me means they chickened out offering a crippled internet usage and a weak or less than functional internet browsing. They did offer a superb camera with more Megapixels which camera phone users have grown accustomed to having...

  8. Origin of the iPhone? by rampant+mac · · Score: 2, Informative

    You should see the origin of the original article posted yesterday. ./

    --
    I like big butts and I cannot lie.
    1. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by freedom_india · · Score: 0

      When will the dumb slashdot editors realize that the same crowd which reads slashdot also reads wired.com , reddit.com , digg.com as part of their daily dose of fun?
      They have wasted a perfectly good space by publishing yesterday's story.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    2. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by Plunky · · Score: 1

      perhaps taco could make a poll about that, but certainly I don't read any of those other sites..

    3. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      Some of us actually have jobs to do. That means I don't have time to read every story on all the sites you mention. I like the fact that slashdot shows me the pick of the bunch from various sites chosen by some real human beings (well, geeks anyway)

      Sounds like you are pretty dumb yourself by assuming on slashdot everyone reads the same sites as you.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
    4. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by Pollardito · · Score: 1

      you should submit an article about "The Origin of the Slashdot Article about the Origin of the IPhone", and then submit it again the next day with slightly different wording

    5. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by freedom_india · · Score: 1

      Very funny.
      Either you are too lazy to visit wired.com, digg.com every day or you are a network administrator managing 5000+ PCs at a time, singularly.
      Give those fingers an excercise by typing in URLs. Dont glide your mouse alone.

      --
      "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
    6. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Some of us actually have jobs to do. If your job is to look stupid on Slashdot, then congrats, you're fucking great at it.

      That means I don't have time to read every story on all the sites you mention. Ever heard of RSS? It saves you a lot of reading dumbass.

      I like the fact that slashdot shows me the pick of the bunch from various sites chosen by some real human beings (well, geeks anyway) You like being spoonfed like the retarded child that you are. Slashdot is a discussion site, "the pick of the bunch" is mostly crap.

      Sounds like you are pretty dumb yourself by assuming on slashdot everyone reads the same sites as you. Sounds like you are pretty dumb yourself for assuming that everyone reads Slashdot only and no other sites.
    7. Re: Origin of the iPhone? by Ash+Vince · · Score: 1

      I consider slashdot, wired and digg to be non-work related sites so I only visit them in my lunch brakes. When I get home I might have a quick glance at slashdot but I don't like spending all my free time on techy stuff as well as when I am at work.

      When I am on company time I fairly disiplined about doing work or looking up matters directly relevant to the task at hand. General browsing for news while valuable in the long term, can also just be a distraction in the short term when you have interests as varied as my own.

      --
      I dont read /. to RTFA, I read /. to offend people in ignorance.
  9. He shoulda... by Corpuscavernosa · · Score: 1

    ... gone Ballmer on their asses, dancing and jumping around to get them fired up. They would have had the motivation and fire to get the product out months earlier.

    --
    We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
    1. Re:He shoulda... by Pearson · · Score: 1

      Nah, he should have just brought in Chuck Norris!

      --
      I...I'm attacking the darkness!
    2. Re:He shoulda... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Nah, the old saying is:

      One day they felt an earthquake in Redmond, WA, so people found the quake's epicenter was one bench by the city center park. They found Chuck Norris there, crying in fear, and each one of his tears was making the Earth tremble, falling on the ground.
      They asked Chuck why he was crying, and Chuck replied in panic:"That Balmer guy, throwing chairs at me. He scared the sh*t out of me!"

    3. Re:He shoulda... by Xiph1980 · · Score: 1

      They may ship their products months earlier, but it's still finished at the same time...

      --
      Manuals are your last resort only
  10. Boom by 4D6963 · · Score: 4, Funny

    FTFA : This 4.8-ounce sliver of glass and aluminum is an explosive device that has forever changed the mobile-phone business

    What an appropriate metaphor to refer to the success of a product that is powered by a lithium-ion battery.

    --
    You just got troll'd!
    1. Re:Boom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Breaking News, the Transport Security Administration bans iPhones in carry on luggage due to new intelligence on possible threat

  11. Error about Leopard delay by jasonbrennan · · Score: 1

    The article says something like "they had already announced Leopard was to be delayed".... Nope, the announced the Leopard delay AFTER the iPhone had been unveiled. Remember, iPhone stealing the OS engineers was to blame!

  12. Ultimate Question by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So, the ultimate question is then:

    For which one do you need to have more bad karma: to reborn as a chair in Redmond, Washington, or as a door in Cupertino, California?

  13. Bullshit! by Quiet_Desperation · · Score: 5, Funny

    It fell out of the sky, accompanied by a host of angels. Everyone knows that.

    Then, hovering in the air, surrounded by a wreath of misty light and cherubim, it received it's first call from God who delivered the three prophecies of Cupertina.

    The first was a vision of Hell, which looked like an AT&T service agreement and 900 page bill.

    The second was how to save (switch) souls from the clutches of Vista and delivered by the Virgin Mary herself in the guise of Ellen Feiss.

    The third is held under tight guard by high ranking members of the Huckabee presidential campaign, and is to be revealed on the first New Moon after the current Pope dies.

    So let it be written. So let it be dumb.

    1. Re:Bullshit! by SpectreBlofeld · · Score: 1

      May the Lord God see fit to bless me with mod points the next time I read something so funny. Amen.

    2. Re:Bullshit! by Corporate+Troll · · Score: 1

      It fell out of the sky, accompanied by a host of angels
      You are absolutely right!
    3. Re:Bullshit! by justleavealonemmmkay · · Score: 1

      DENNIS: Listen -- strange midgets flying in clouds
      distributing speculations is no basis for a system of communication. Supreme
      mobile experience derives from a mandate from the geeks, not from some farcical
      celestial ceremony.

    4. Re:Bullshit! by FudRucker · · Score: 1
      --
      Politics is Treachery, Religion is Brainwashing
    5. Re:Bullshit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Be Quiet!

    6. Re:Bullshit! by __aaqvdr516 · · Score: 1

      And I wonder how many people are going to know where this came from :P

    7. Re:Bullshit! by justleavealonemmmkay · · Score: 1

      You can't expect to wield supreme market domination just 'cause some ethereous gnomes threw a statement at you.

    8. Re:Bullshit! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I order you to be quiet!

    9. Re:Bullshit! by __aailob1448 · · Score: 1

      You sir, are way too familiar with internet cliches. I fear for your soul.

  14. I hate bosses like that by syousef · · Score: 5, Insightful

    The effect was even more terrifying than one of Jobs' trademark tantrums. When the Apple chief screamed at his staff, it was scary but familiar. This time, his relative calm was unnerving. 'It was one of the few times at Apple when I got a chill,' says someone who was in the meeting."

    The only reason to fear your boss is that your boss can effectively end your livelihood or career. Lauding power over people like that, throwing tantrums, and scaring your employees by staring them down or through false calm just makes me very happy I've never worked for such people. I've had some excellent bosses who've produced some excellent results and none of them have ruled by fear. There's one I remember who got accolades on retiring this year and all anyone could ever say about him was that he was calm and an absolute gentleman under pressure. In contrast when I read about Jobs and Gates I just think "goes to show money won't buy manners".

    As for the iPhone can't say I understand what the fuss about this product is. Last time I participated in a discussion about it someone was rabbiting on about hacks to do video, as if video were an advanced feature for a modern phone. Please!

    --
    These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    1. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Lauding power over people like that, throwing tantrums, and scaring your employees by staring them down or through false calm just makes me very happy I've never worked for such people.

      This was about the first thing that struck me when I read the article - it really doesn't sound like a good working environment to me.

      Also, I suspect working under that kind of pressure is going to significantly increase the number of silly mistakes being made - not great for the stability of the product.

      As for the iPhone can't say I understand what the fuss about this product is. Last time I participated in a discussion about it someone was rabbiting on about hacks to do video, as if video were an advanced feature for a modern phone. Please!

      I have still to work out what the iPhone's target market is. It isn't a smartphone - it's lacking in too many features that smartphone users expect from their phones (such as being able to run third party software, using the phone to connect their notebook to the internet, etc), yet it is priced up there with the smartphones (more expensive than many too, and most of the smartphones can do 3G).

      Sure, the iPhone's UI is supposed to be excellent, but what's the good in a nice UI if the phone is lacking the the features the target market needs?

    2. Re:I hate bosses like that by eshefer · · Score: 2, Informative

      "but what's the good in a nice UI if the phone is lacking the the features the target market needs?"

      first, it's NOT targeting the smart-phone market, it's targeting the consumer market. BIG DIFFERENCE.

      not that it matters now anyway. last I heard it had a 30% of the smartphones sold in the US in the last few months, and has out sold ALL win-mobile based phones combined in that time frame. aparantly it's not doing too bad.

      it is an open ended device in that it's easly upgradable by apple, at the moment. What's going to happen when the API is released (this february)? let me give you a clue: it will be the the mobile platform with the most developers. by far. from the get go - all indy mac devs will be on that API as soon as it is released. Others will follow.

    3. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      first, it's NOT targeting the smart-phone market, it's targeting the consumer market. BIG DIFFERENCE.

      I'm sorry, I can't believe that you can consider an iPhone to be targetting what you call the "consumer" market (as if smart-phones weren't aimed at consumers too). Let's see: It is pretty bulky and is really expensive - kind of like a smartphone. Certainly not the same market as "consumer" phones such as the Razr, etc.

      not that it matters now anyway. last I heard it had a 30% of the smartphones sold in the US in the last few months, and has out sold ALL win-mobile based phones combined in that time frame. aparantly it's not doing too bad.

      But you just said it wasn't targetting the smartphone market, so why are you comparing iPhone sales with smartphone sales? It would seem to be more sensible to compare iPhone sales with "consumer" phone sales (I'm pretty sure you'll find that "consumer" phones massively outsell smartphones too).

      it is an open ended device in that it's easly upgradable by apple, at the moment. What's going to happen when the API is released (this february)?

      If you buy something based on what a company says they will do in the future you are crazy - businesses make huge U-turns all the time, and I've lost count of the number of devices I've got where the manufacturer has said "oh, and it's upgradable so bugs will get fixed over the life of the product", only to find out that the life of the product is about a year and they made 1 firmware release (which didn't address most of the serious bugs) before end-of-lifeing it.

      let me give you a clue: it will be the the mobile platform with the most developers. by far. from the get go - all indy mac devs will be on that API as soon as it is released. Others will follow.

      I won't hold my breath - Symbian, PalmOS, etc. may be crap platforms, but they do have a hell of a lot of developers. And they have embraced third party developers from the start rather than giving them the finger and then deciding later on that maybe they should allow third party development after all.

      I'm afraid I won't be buying an iPhone - it's far too expensive, massively lacks most of the features I need from a phone and Apple have repeatedly shown that they are more interested in locking devices down and trying to control the whole market rather than allowing their customers to fully utilise what they have spent their money on. Just because they have decided that they need to produce an open API *now* doesn't negate their actions in the past and doesn't promise a great future.

    4. Re:I hate bosses like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Unfortunately, people get praised - sometimes with subtlety, other times in screaming bold print - for not being able to restrain themselves and behave in an adult, professional manner. This is highly unfortunate. Steve Jobs is a grown man and the CEO (and co-founder, but he got fired from his own company - huh, how do you suppose something like that happens?) of one of the world's fastest-growing, most popular companies and he's routinely praised for throwing fits like a small child.

      I think this should stop. It is not evidence of genius; it is evidence of a total lack of self-discipline or fear of any consequences.

    5. Re:I hate bosses like that by LKM · · Score: 2, Informative

      It should be pointed out that the people who actually know Jobs tend to disagree with this public notion of him as a mercurial asshat.

      As for your comment on the iPhone, you don't understand what the fuss is precisely because you think that more features make a better phone. Please!

    6. Re:I hate bosses like that by pimpimpim · · Score: 1
      Wait, wait, the iPhone is a phone with the computing power close to my current PC (an old VIA, I can bet the iPhone has a better GPU than my on-board one). Almost its full size is one big screen. Doesn't all this imply that it should be able to run videos easily?

      If I would want a phone with less features, I would bloody not spend 900 euros on it, and for that price end up getting locked in to one provider. Actually I do find phones with less features better, and in europe there are a lot of pre-paid phones without even a camera available starting about 10-30 euros. I got mine at 12. I can call with it and clearly understand and speak with the people at the other end.

      I also want a small portable computer, which is why I ordered an EEE that, *GASP*, actually allows you to install software on it if there are computing things you want to do with it that weren't on there by default.

      I have used (but never my own) Apple PCs already since the first one-box Macintoshes. On several occasions I was almost convinced I should get an apple product for myself. But everytime Apple itself manages to put me off by limiting the end-users' choice to do with their interesting machines what the end users wants. For example, if I want an MP3 player, I want to be able to mount it like a flash drive and copy music to and from it. This works for my simple SD-card based MP3 player, I got a SD card with USB outlet, and on every OS that supports USB disks I can change my music. The newest model iPod will not give you this possibility, though, I know someone who doesn't own either an apple or a windows pc and has been trying the last week (by reading forums etc.) to get his iPod actually accept his music. Despite the excellent user interface on the device itself (which surpasses any music player user interface I know), I will never buy an iPod for myself or friends, just because they are heavily crippled for their main task.

      --
      molmod.com - computing tips from a molecular modeling
    7. Re:I hate bosses like that by coolGuyZak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'm sorry, I can't believe that you can consider an iPhone to be targetting what you call the "consumer" market (as if smart-phones weren't aimed at consumers too). Let's see: It is pretty bulky and is really expensive - kind of like a smartphone. Certainly not the same market as "consumer" phones such as the Razr, etc

      Smart-phones are marketed to the consumer market, but they're designed for a technical or professional market. The iPhone, on the other hand, is both marketed and designed as a high-end consumer device. Note, this doesn't prevent an owner or developer from treating it like a smartphone.

      As an aside concerning the bulk, it's not a big deal in my experience. The iPhone is comfortable enough to hold up to your head for short periods of time. After 10 minutes or so, you should either be finished your call or put on the headphones (for hands-free use).

      But you just said it wasn't targetting the smartphone market, so why are you comparing...

      So wait,... You argue in the first paragraph that smartphones are, in fact, consumer devices, but bemoan his argument concerning smartphone market. Maybe you guys should agree to agree here. ;)

    8. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "It is pretty bulky and is really expensive - kind of like a smartphone. Certainly not the same market as "consumer" phones such as the Razr, etc."

      -In what way is it bulky? Nice try. And it's not "really" expensive. It's more expensive than the Razr and all of the other shitty user interface laden, give away phones out there, yes. But it's far from the most expensive phone so let's not be too disingenuous.

      "But you just said it wasn't targetting the smartphone market, so why are you comparing iPhone sales with smartphone sales?"

      -I'd say it's in a class by itself. It doesn't have every feature yet, but I would say it qualifies as a smartphone. Yet, it's not designed for the geek crowd who want to SSH into their computer (who the F does something like that anyway?). It's a very consumer oriented phone at the same time.

      "If you buy something based on what a company says they will do in the future you are crazy "

      -I'd say you already lost this argument. Apple has already updated the phone several times and added new functionality, and another update is coming in Jan. They're already delivering on their promise of updating the functionality via software updates. Face it champ, you got this one wrong.

      "And they have embraced third party developers from the start rather than giving them the finger and then deciding later on that maybe they should allow third party development after all."

      -I think you're pathetically ignorant if you think that is really what happened here. It's a brand new platform that pulled developer assets from their computer OS upgrade to finish the iPhone. Apple knows full well the advantage of an SDK and I don't doubt they had one planned all along. I firmly believe that they were more concerned about getting the product released and selling and THEN they can work on immediate bug fixes and release an SDK, which I might add is only an issue to a VERY SMALL sliver of the buying public.

      "it's far too expensive, massively lacks most of the features I need from a phone and Apple have repeatedly shown that they are more interested in locking devices down and trying to control the whole market"

      -Again, not too expensive. It's not designed to be a throwaway cheap phone like the crappy ones you favor. If you want an $800 video camera that can also make phone calls and has a crappy user interface then go buy an N95, or buy a Blackberry and enjoy their crappy interface. . . And where do you get the idea that Apple locks devices down to control the whole market? That's definitely a jaded slant. I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple follows a different product strategy. Rather than just selling their software to run poorly on every crappy piece of hardware (ala Microsoft) they try to create a well integrated experience that works great and is easy to use. They have succeeded in the Mac, the iPod, and the iPhone.

      Face it, you just don't like Apple and the press the iPhone has received irks you. You've got a case of sour graphes, and that's fine, but your arguments don't hold water.

    9. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Note, this doesn't prevent an owner or developer from treating it like a smartphone.

      Sure it does - it is missing many of the features that makes a smartphone a smartphone (no, having to apply un supported 3rd party hacks, or having to wait while Apple decides to allow access to *some* of the features does not count).

      As an aside concerning the bulk, it's not a big deal in my experience. The iPhone is comfortable enough to hold up to your head for short periods of time.

      Notice I said "bulk" not "weight" - the iphone is much much bigger to carry around than any other "consumer" phone. It's size is on-par with smartphones, not "consumer" phones.

      After 10 minutes or so, you should either be finished your call or put on the headphones (for hands-free use).

      You seriously expect people to carry headphones around with them _as well_ as the bulky phone?

      So wait,... You argue in the first paragraph that smartphones are, in fact, consumer devices, but bemoan his argument concerning smartphone market. Maybe you guys should agree to agree here. ;)

      No, I said the use of the word "consumer" was a bad one. There are two markets - the smartphone market and the non-smartphone market. Both markets have consumers - the original poster used the word "consumer" to describe only the latter. And yes, I have used the same word (but quoted) to describe this market because I didn't really want to get bogged down in a language-war.

      My complaint here is that the poster stated the the iPhone wasn't targetting the smartphone market and then stated it must be doing well because it has outsold Windows smartphones. Making comparisons between two markets like this is completely meaningless - it's like me declaring that a car manufacturer must be doing well because they've sold more cars than Airbus have sold planes this year. If you're going to make comparisons about how well something is doing you need to compare with other products _in the same market_.

    10. Re:I hate bosses like that by Mr.+Underbridge · · Score: 1

      I have still to work out what the iPhone's target market is.

      People who like shiny gadgets. It's not going after the "Look at me, I work 100 hours a week and I'm so busy I need to screw with my blackberry while I drive!" crowd. It's targeted more at the hipster crowd, who wear their devices as emblems of cool rather than power.

      I don't really need a blackberry or iPhone, because I don't have a ton of downtime where I need entertainment. I'm usually either home (where I have my laptop), work (where I have my desktop), or out doing something (where I don't need to play on the internet). Additionally, I'm murder on phones and would probably kill the iphone in 5 days. My current phone weighs half a pound and is waterproof, shockproof, and dustproof. That's all I need.

      The only appeal I could see for the iPhone is if I took the train to work or something.

    11. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      -In what way is it bulky? Nice try. And it's not "really" expensive. It's more expensive than the Razr and all of the other shitty user interface laden, give away phones out there, yes. But it's far from the most expensive phone so let's not be too disingenuous.

      Please point at any other non-smartphone which is as pricey and bulky as the iPhone.

      -I'd say it's in a class by itself. It doesn't have every feature yet, but I would say it qualifies as a smartphone.

      What makes it qualify as a smartphone? It won't let you run 3rd party applications - as far as I'm concerned that pretty much defines the main feature of a smartphone. Ok, so it does calendaring, web browsing and video playing, but so do most other non-smartphones too.

      A smartphone is a device that provides computer-like capabilities, basically allowing the user to do whatever they want with the device (to the extent that the hardware is capable) rather than a normal phone which has extremely rigid software capabilities defined by the manufacturer.

      Yet, it's not designed for the geek crowd who want to SSH into their computer (who the F does something like that anyway?)

      Pretty much anyone who needs to administer systems when not at home but doesn't want to carry a notebook computer with them all the time (i.e. sysadmins who are on call). For the record, I have done it on numerous occasions and it has been a life saver - it's meant I could take 10 minutes to fix a problem and then get back to what I was doing rather than spend several hours in order to get to a computer.

      I'd say you already lost this argument. Apple has already updated the phone several times and added new functionality, and another update is coming in Jan. They're already delivering on their promise of updating the functionality via software updates. Face it champ, you got this one wrong.

      You'll note I never said Apple _won't_ do this - I said anyone relying on a vendor to provide new features on a device once they have bought it is nuts because you have absolutely no guarantees they are going to add the feature you need.

      which I might add is only an issue to a VERY SMALL sliver of the buying public.

      *everyone* I know who has invested in a smartphone or a PDA runs third party software on it. If you claim that only a very small proportion of the iPhone's target market care about this functionality then you are simply reinforcing my belief that the iPhone is not a smartphone.

      If you want an $800 video camera that can also make phone calls and has a crappy user interface then go buy an N95

      The N95 is free with an 18 month contract from O2 which costs £30/month. You can buy it SIM-free for about £300.

      By comparison, an iPhone will set you back £269 on an 18 month O2 contract costing you £35/month and you can't buy it SIM-free.

      And where do you get the idea that Apple locks devices down to control the whole market? That's definitely a jaded slant. I think it would be more accurate to say that Apple follows a different product strategy. Rather than just selling their software to run poorly on every crappy piece of hardware (ala Microsoft) they try to create a well integrated experience that works great and is easy to use. They have succeeded in the Mac, the iPod, and the iPhone

      Who mentioned anything about Microsoft or trying to run software on other devices? Apple initially designed the iPhone to prevent third party software from being run on it - i.e. they only wanted their (and their partners') software to work with it. They wanted control of the hardware, the OS *and* the application software - the whole software stack. Similarly, they have done everything they can to prevent you having a free choice of service provider, even to the extent of breaking the law (in the UK customers have a legal right to have their phones unlocked, but Apple have ignored this law since the regulator has no teeth).

      Face it, you j

    12. Re:I hate bosses like that by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Doesn't all this imply that it should be able to run videos easily?
      Where's the implication that it doesn't run videos easily? Show me a phone that has better integration with the videos sitting on my desktop and a more elegant and simple way of getting them to my phone, and I might buy into your assertation that the iPhone somehow has difficulty playing videos.
    13. Re:I hate bosses like that by rho · · Score: 1

      This was about the first thing that struck me when I read the article - it really doesn't sound like a good working environment to me.

      Eh. Some people thrive in it. I notice you didn't invent the iPhone.

      When you're a company that more or less defines "inventive", ordinary management is not what you want. Recall Apple from the '90s--hordes of identical spec-bumped boxes with the (very) occasional bright spot like the Newton. But they had "professional" management!

      --
      Potato chips are a by-yourself food.
    14. Re:I hate bosses like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      I'm posting this AC for obvious reasons.

      It is interesting that you say the above -- I worked in Cupertino for many years during Jobs' first reign; interacted with him many times.

      I also think he gets a bad rap. Every time I talked with him he was pretty calm and very focused, and would call "BS" on anything that was, but he was pretty reasonable with things that weren't BS. He would always know (technically) what was going on with projects, which was great.

      Keep in mind that the CEO / leader of an organization gets press every time they do something bad, but the 99% of times they are behaved like a normal human being nothing happens.

      I am sure that some of the yelling stories are true, and I heard stories of Steve pretty harshly chewing out some of the other engineers. From the article again, though, the only anecdote sounds like Steve was calm and everybody else was yelling / crazy. I'm sure he is a bit more brash and arrogant now, but he was nothing excessive; to tell you the truth the company I work for now has a boss that is much more arrogant and volatile. Thankfully I don't have to interact with him much.

      Apple was just like any other smallish corporation when I was there -- *mostly* nice people, a few crazy people, led by a driven leader.

    15. Re:I hate bosses like that by coolGuyZak · · Score: 1

      Lest we forget, a primary use case for the iPhone is as an MP3 player. It can be generally assumed that users carry their headphones with them. I'll respond to your other points later... I'm on the road, and the browser sucks for long replies. ;)

    16. Re:I hate bosses like that by AgentSmith · · Score: 1

      I too hate bosses like that. Although, the pressure and passion of both Gates and Jobs is also legendary.
      They are at the forefront of worldwide, high profile companies. In order to be there for so long you might
      need to have a bug up your ass or (as polite circles call it) "the fire in the belly".

    17. Re:I hate bosses like that by DeadChobi · · Score: 1

      The iPhone's target market is college and high school students who are willing to pay for something that makes them look super-hip.

      --
      SRSLY.
    18. Re:I hate bosses like that by kisrael · · Score: 1

      The iPhone's target market is college and high school students who are willing to pay for something that makes them look super-hip.

      And not condescending Slashdot posters.
      --
      SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
    19. Re:I hate bosses like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My only problem with Apple is their repeated efforts to lock customers into products and services.

      You'd probably whine if somebody locked you inside the Playboy Mansion.

    20. Re:I hate bosses like that by firewood · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've worked for bosses like that. Their track record has been such that the fear isn't over one's career, since one can often get another job that will pay just as well, but that one will not live up to those bosses standards of creating products that sometimes achieve great and sustained market acceptance, as well as being a business success. The employee stock from companies with the nice bosses hasn't done nearly as well over the long haul in my small statistical sampling. YMMV.

    21. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "Please point at any other non-smartphone which is as pricey and bulky as the iPhone."

      -I can fit it in my pocket just fine. It's thinner than my Razr, which I hate I might add because the UI SUCKS. Pricey? I'll happily pay that price for a phone that is easy to use. I could give this phone to my wife or my daughter and they would be able to use all the functionality instantly. If you want a Ford then buy a cheap Ford. If you want a Mercedes then you need to pay for it.

      "What makes it qualify as a smartphone? It won't let you run 3rd party applications - as far as I'm concerned that pretty much defines the main feature of a smartphone. Ok, so it does calendaring, web browsing and video playing, but so do most other non-smartphones too."

      -Okay, that's YOUR definition of a smart phone. It was instantly called a smartphone by journalists on the day of the unveiling in Jan '07 because it allows you to surf the web (the real web), calendaring, email, music, video, pictures, etc. and contrary to your belief most non-smartphones DON'T do that. They do a poor attempt at one or two things, but they don't roll it up into one big easy to use product that is essentially a computer in your hand. The fact that you didn't have an SDK from day 1 doesn't mean it's not a smartphone. If the SDK was released today would it suddenly qualify as a smartphone? You just don't like the device or Apple so you're trying to tear them down.

      "You'll note I never said Apple _won't_ do this"

      -I'll note that you found a slippery way out of being wrong, but you were replying to the other person when they mentioned new features on the iPhone via software updates so it's a natural assumption that you WERE referring to Apple in your reply.

      "Apple initially designed the iPhone to prevent third party software from being run on it "

      -It's a brand new phone, with a brand new OS, with no widespread consumer testing behind it. Anyone who would immediately allow 3rd party apps to be installed would be asking for trouble. If Apple really was trying to lock everyone out then why are the about to let everyone in via the SDK? Why is there an SDK for desktop OS X? Your argument doesn't hold water. They know very well the value of 3rd party apps and an SDK. They just were busy developing the most revolutionary UI on the planet for a mobile phone that they didn't have time or resources to have an SDK ready from day 1 for the less than 1% of people who want to SSH into another machine.

      "My only problem with Apple is their repeated efforts to lock customers into products and services."

      -What specific efforts are you referring to here? I have a Mac and an iPhone and an iPod and I'm not locked into anything. Duh!

      "I don't have to result to these sorts of petty insults to make my points."

      -You haven't made a point yet so we'll never know, now will we?

      "3G support."

      -Please see Jobs reasons for no initial 3G support which have been published for well over 6 months. BATTERY LIFE!

      "People are buying the iPhone because it has been hyped up and is considered "cool" "

      -It is hyped up and it is "cool" I guess, especially in comparison to other crappy phones. But don't waste my time with the "cool" argument. People are buying it because it is the mix of features they want and the UI is head and shoulders above anything else. The "cool" argument is just sticking your head in the sand.

    22. Re:I hate bosses like that by syousef · · Score: 1

      You really should change your name to AppleFanboy. I bet if Apple came out with iTurd you'd defend it too. Apple's so lucky to have sheep like you to sell overpriced crap to.

      It should be pointed out that the people who actually know Jobs tend to disagree with this public notion of him as a mercurial asshat.

      It should be noted that throwing a tantrum is bad manners, and this is independent of whether it's an asshat or a saint doing it.

      As for your comment on the iPhone, you don't understand what the fuss is precisely because you think that more features make a better phone. Please!

      What I don't understand is why a product with such a blaring omission is getting so much attention. This isn't some weird extra feature you wouldn't expect on a camera enabled phone. It appears to be a software limitation. Only a fool or someone with too much time on their hands would buy such a piece of garbage and then hack their way around the restriction. If this were some basic phone, that just made calls, well fair enough. It's not though. It's expensive and there's no excuse for this feature being missing given that almost every other phone has it.

      The fucking thing is a fad. It'll go down in history with hula hoops and yoyos, except that it won't make a comeback once the stinking piece of shit dies.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    23. Re:I hate bosses like that by eshefer · · Score: 1

      Ah. we seem to differ on what a "market" is.

      smart-phones isn't a "market" per se. it's a type of cellular device. that device is marketed to certain types of people and institutions that constitute the markets it is targeting. Most smartphones are marketed to enterprise customers (IE - the people who end up using them don't actually pay for the devices) or to technical users (power-users/early adopters/geeks markets).
      what I meant by consumer markets is that the person, who's usually a layman - non-technical user, goes to the shop/online store and buys the thing will end up using it. very different markets.

      you, for some odd reason, confuse the class of devices known as "smartphones" (phones that have email, browsers and other apps that go beyond the typical cellphone spec, on a platform that has an SDK) with their markets.

      "But you just said it wasn't targeting the smartphone market, so why are you comparing iPhone sales with smartphone sales?"

      I'm not. you did. my point was that the iphone isn't marketed to the same market most smartphones are marketed to - and the sales figures show that this is not a bad strategic move.

      - "let me give you a clue: it will be the the mobile platform with the most developers. by far. from the get go - all indy mac devs will be on that API as soon as it is released. Others will follow."
      - "I won't hold my breath - Symbian, PalmOS, etc. may be crap platforms, but they do have a hell of a lot of developers."

      so what. in the end what matters to most developers is the size of the target market (in this case ipod touch and iphone owners) - the iphone is out for less then 6 months and THAT is why that 30% statistic I mentioned earlier matters.

      "I'm afraid I won't be buying an iPhone - it's far too expensive, massively lacks most of the features I need from a phone..."

      sure. thats you prerogative

        "...and Apple have repeatedly shown that they are more interested in locking devices down and trying to control the whole market rather than allowing their customers to fully utilise what they have spent their money on. Just because they have decided that they need to produce an open API *now* doesn't negate their actions in the past and doesn't promise a great future."

      we'll need to wait and see what apples policy regarding iphone (and ipod touch) developer SDK agreements look like. apple is not a open source company (niether are palm, symbian and winmo, btw). We'll need to wait and see. It's true that up to this point the iphone was locked (officially) so was the ipod. but apple has made other platforms that have had vibrant 3rd party comunities (I heard there's this macos thing, you may have heard of it too).

      we'll just have to wait and see if the dev-landscape for iphone-touch looks like the ipod or more like the mac.. in february we will know (and we might actually know already next week)

    24. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      it allows you to surf the web (the real web), calendaring, email, music, video, pictures, etc. and contrary to your belief most non-smartphones DON'T do that.

      Maybe they don't in the US (since the US appears to be in the stone-age when it comes to telephony), but in Europe they do and have for quite a while.

      You just don't like the device or Apple so you're trying to tear them down.

      No, that's not the case at all. As previously stated, I only have 1 problem with Apple. Their computer kit is pricey but pretty reasonable (I personally wouldn't buy it, but I would recommend it to some people). I have no problem with the iPhone itself, other than the fact that it is massively overpriced for the feature set and is locked to a single provider. If they drop the price down to the same levels as other non-smartphones and unlocked it it would be pretty good.

      I'll note that you found a slippery way out of being wrong, but you were replying to the other person when they mentioned new features on the iPhone via software updates so it's a natural assumption that you WERE referring to Apple in your reply.

      I quite clearly did not mention Apple at all. Sure, Apple was included in the term "company" but it wasn't explicit. If you trust _any_ company to do something they haven't been contracted to do then you are nuts, and yes, this includes Apple. I haven't said they *won't* do it, I just said you have no guarantee that they will do it. If you are incapable of reading a comment without adding your own spin to push your argument then that's your business - I was quite clear with my wording.

      It's a brand new phone, with a brand new OS, with no widespread consumer testing behind it.

      You're saying that Apple released a product without doing significant consumer testing on it? That seems like complete crazyness - *every* device manufacturer does extensive consumer testing before release.

      Anyone who would immediately allow 3rd party apps to be installed would be asking for trouble.

      Funny, Palm (or US Robotics as it was then), Symbian (Psion) and Microsoft have all allowed 3rd party apps from from the release of their platforms. Were they asking for trouble? On the contrary - they realised that third party developers would be they key to their success.

      If Apple really was trying to lock everyone out then why are the about to let everyone in via the SDK?

      Because they realised that locking people out wasn't going to work - interested parties will continue to hack them to unlock the functionality Apple tried to restrict. The unsuccessful efforts to prevent this were creating bad press for Apple so they have been pushed into either continuing to fight a battle they can't win against the developers, or give in and provide an official SDK.

      Why is there an SDK for desktop OS X?

      We're not talking about the desktop platforms here - please keep on topic rather than pushing the discussion into an irrelevant direction.

      for the less than 1% of people who want to SSH into another machine.

      I'm not talking about the people who want to SSH into a machine - I'm talking about the normal smartphone users who make use of all sorts of third party apps on a daily basis. These are things like games, instant messenger clients, ebooks, various specialist applications, not to mention replacements for the built in applications with different functionality. As I mentioned, *everyone* I know with a smartphone uses third party applications, and most of them aren't the sorts of people to be sshing into machines.

      What specific efforts are you referring to here? I have a Mac and an iPhone and an iPod and I'm not locked into anything.

      So you're happilly using your iPhone on a service provider of your choice (i.e. not AT&T if you're in the states), using third party applications on your iPhone, updating the music library on your iPod without needing iTunes, etc?

      Please see J

    25. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      in the end what matters to most developers is the size of the target market (in this case ipod touch and iphone owners) - the iphone is out for less then 6 months and THAT is why that 30% statistic I mentioned earlier matters.

      That only applies to commercial developers - non-commercial developers don't care how big the market is - they are writing stuff that _they_ want.

    26. Re:I hate bosses like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Sure it does - it is missing many of the features that makes a smartphone a smartphone (no, having to apply un supported 3rd party hacks, or having to wait while Apple decides to allow access to *some* of the features does not count).
      Whatever. Tell that the to the thousands of people that do treat it as a smart phone and install those apps.
    27. Re:I hate bosses like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Completely new AC here.

      Strictly speaking, we are talking about the desktop platform's SDK. Class dumps of the software on iPhone and iPod Touch show that they both have the majority of the Cocoa, Core Animation, and several other frameworks that are all used in the desktop version of OS X. A few things have changed (especially the UI classes), but it's almost all there.

    28. Re:I hate bosses like that by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I have no problem with the iPhone itself, other than the fact that it is massively overpriced for the feature set and is locked to a single provider.

      The main reason it's locked to a single provider (I only know the story in the US) is that Apple is signed into an exclusivity contract with AT&T. I'm sure that's not ideal, from Apple's point of view. In a way, I'd imagine Apple would love it to be available on other networks - that's more devices sold and being used, and more potential Apple customers. That said, if that was the case I'd imagine they'd want to work out revenue sharing contracts with the other phone companies too.

      You're saying that Apple released a product without doing significant consumer testing on it? That seems like complete crazyness - *every* device manufacturer does extensive consumer testing before release.

      If the article these comments relate to has any truth to it, then only about 30 people saw the completed iPhone before its release.

      Because they realised that locking people out wasn't going to work - interested parties will continue to hack them to unlock the functionality Apple tried to restrict. The unsuccessful efforts to prevent this were creating bad press for Apple so they have been pushed into either continuing to fight a battle they can't win against the developers, or give in and provide an official SDK.

      I think you're entirely wrong here. I can't see a reason that Apple would *want* to keep people out. Apple actively supports its 3rd party developers on OS X (great developer docs and tools - constantly improving, apple design awards, WWDC, etc), and they're vital to its success. They produce some really, really top quality software. And I'm sure apple would love to see what they can do with the device (in fact, I expect they're pretty amazed with what people have already achieved) - take for example Lucas Newman (formally of Delicious Monster, an indie mac software company). He wrote a very impressive 'Lights Out' game for the iPhone, not long after it was first jailbroken. And Apple have snapped him up and employed him. I don't think that's really the actions of a company who'll do anything to stop and discourage people from writing apps.

      Your comments on this just reflect your negativity for apple, and so you seem to have concocted a negative idea of why there has been no SDK up till now. I think more than likely, they a) were so busy with just getting the device ready for launch, etc, and then with the launch of Leopard (I think this is more than likely) and b) possibly might have had to do some wrangling with AT&T. There's also a third thought on why they might've left it until February to release a proper SDK - rumours abound of a Mac tablet device that's approaching being ready to launch - some even say that something like this might debut at MacWorld next week (we'll have to wait and see). One line of reasoning is that this device will use the same variant of OS X as runs on the iPhone/iPod Touch. This could well be a reason for delaying an SDK - as it may also be the SDK for this new device, and releasing it sooner would reveal the device's existence. Who knows?

      I'm not talking about the people who want to SSH into a machine - I'm talking about the normal smartphone users who make use of all sorts of third party apps on a daily basis. These are things like games, instant messenger clients, ebooks, various specialist applications, not to mention replacements for the built in applications with different functionality. As I mentioned, *everyone* I know with a smartphone uses third party applications, and most of them aren't the sorts of people to be sshing into machines.

      I know you'll say something like 'I don't want to have to modify my device' but to tide people over until the official SDK, we have web-based applications (some of which are fantastic, and you wouldn't know weren't native), and we have jailbreaking which so far has appeared to be very simple and safe.

    29. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "I quite clearly did not mention Apple at all."

      -No, you were just replying to a specific post about Apple so you were obviously referring to Apple in your post.

      "You're saying that Apple released a product without doing significant consumer testing on it?"

      -Yes, that's what I'm saying. No company does "widespread consumer testing". Duh. They do testing in a small way, but no company releases their product to 100,000+ consumers to test it. And if you'd RTFA you'd see that Apple's development process on the iPhone was probably more secret than most. Hence, they give it a little while to work through the inevitable minor bugs and then when you've stabilized the platform you worry about allowing 3rd party apps to become installed.

      "Funny, Palm (or US Robotics as it was then), Symbian (Psion) and Microsoft have all allowed 3rd party apps from from the release of their platforms. Were they asking for trouble? "

      -Funny, all the phone UIs you just mentioned SUCK. So yes, they obviously were asking for trouble because they didn't get the UI right FIRST. You just made my point for me. Thanks.

      "Because they realised that locking people out wasn't going to work"

      -No, YOU said they lock people out so they have all the control and make all the money. So, they obviously don't care what people want and they'd still be locking people out. Face it, the SDK was planned all the time. Apple knows software and operating system development and they know 3rd party apps are crucial. They just didn't want to delay the iPhone for 8 more months for an SDK that was not immediately crucial to its success. And guess what, it turns out they were right. Folks are camping out to get the things, even without the SDK that you think is so crucial. Turns out reality has proved your fantasy logic wrong again.

      "We're not talking about the desktop platforms here"

      -Yes, we're talking about your mistaken assumption that Apple locks people in to their devices and Apple makes desktops, ipods, and phones. So looking at all those products that you said Apple locks me into I asked you where the lock was? If AT&T is the only lock you can think of then congratulations, you've made the exception prove the rule.

      "So you're happilly using your iPhone on a service provider of your choice (i.e. not AT&T if you're in the states), using third party applications on your iPhone, updating the music library on your iPod without needing iTunes, etc?"

      The AT&T exclusive deal was necessary not to lock people in, but to get a carrier to work with Apple who would allow Apple to implement all the great ideas it has. Visual voicemail? Downloading music from iTunes, syncing from the computer, allowing photos to be synced to the computer rather than charging them to send them over the network, etc. Maybe these are not limitations in other markets, but in the US the carriers had so much control and no vision that Apple had to ink a deal like this to start to open the door to a better experience. And look what has happened. Verizon, the king of lock down carriers is now opening their networks, along with other carriers. Apple has once again made the experience better, but they had to sign a 5 year deal to get the leverage they wanted.

      As for the 3rd party apps, big deal they're coming and your argument dies a quick death. Updating the music without iTunes? You can on iPods and as for either iPhones or iPods, why would you want to? It's easier to do it via iTunes. Face it, they built a better mousetrap, a great end to end experience. Updating without iTunes would be a step backward. If you want to update your phone by dragging individual tunes over to the phone connected as a USB device then have at it! Welcome back to the dark ages.

      "Funny how other phones manage it just fine."

      -3G chipsets affect battery life. Period. The lower talk time on the phones you refer to isn't acceptable on an iPhone because you end up using it so much more. Web browsing

    30. Re:I hate bosses like that by garote · · Score: 1

      Just adding my two cents here, because this flame war amuses me.

      -- it allows you to surf the web (the real web), calendaring, email, music, video, pictures, etc. and contrary to your belief most non-smartphones DON'T do that.

      - Maybe they don't in the US (since the US appears to be in the stone-age when it comes to telephony), but in Europe they do and have for quite a while.

      While this pretzel arguing is impressive, it's going to be moot in about three weeks, when an SDK for the phone emerges. The iPhone will then be considered a smartphone, period. Then you can shut up.

      - No, that's not the case at all. As previously stated, I only have 1 problem with Apple. Their computer kit is pricey but pretty reasonable (I personally wouldn't buy it, but I would recommend it to some people). I have no problem with the iPhone itself, other than the fact that it is massively overpriced for the feature set and is locked to a single provider. If they drop the price down to the same levels as other non-smartphones and unlocked it it would be pretty good.

      "Massively overpriced" is a "fact", you say? It sold like hotcakes and then Apple cut the price by A THIRD. Then it sold like ... more hotcakes. As for vendor lock-in, RTFA. This is apparently the price some people are willing to pay for a product that is different. If it bothers YOU, well then, jailbreak it. You don't want to jailbreak it? Then whatever.

      - I quite clearly did not mention Apple at all. Sure, Apple was included in the term "company" but it wasn't explicit. If you trust _any_ company to do something they haven't been contracted to do then you are nuts, and yes, this includes Apple. I haven't said they *won't* do it, I just said you have no guarantee that they will do it. If you are incapable of reading a comment without adding your own spin to push your argument then that's your business - I was quite clear with my wording.

      ... Said the cut-rate attorney.

      -- It's a brand new phone, with a brand new OS, with no widespread consumer testing behind it.

      - You're saying that Apple released a product without doing significant consumer testing on it? That seems like complete crazyness - *every* device manufacturer does extensive consumer testing before release.

      It's considered bad form to follow mock incredulity with an obvious falsehood.

      -- Anyone who would immediately allow 3rd party apps to be installed would be asking for trouble.

      - Funny, Palm (or US Robotics as it was then), Symbian (Psion) and Microsoft have all allowed 3rd party apps from from the release of their platforms. Were they asking for trouble? On the contrary - they realised that third party developers would be they key to their success.

      I disagree with both sides of thread, but would like to point out that Apple is a newcomer to the celphone industry. It's sensible that their development teams would want to take this process a bit slow. And again, three weeks and we see an SDK. This hair-splitting becomes moot.

      -- If Apple really was trying to lock everyone out then why are the about to let everyone in via the SDK?

      -Because they realised that locking people out wasn't going to work - interested parties will continue to hack them to unlock the functionality Apple tried to restrict. The unsuccessful efforts to prevent this were creating bad press for Apple so they have been pushed into either continuing to fight a battle they can't win against the developers, or give in and provide an official SDK.

      Actually, the functionality that Apple wants to restrict is still quite firmly un-hacked. To access the hardware directly, software authors need what essentially amounts to a private key. No one has been able to reverse-engineer the hardware piecewise and extract this key. Why? Go read a book on the subject. One reason is, if you're clever enough to have access to the specialize

    31. Re:I hate bosses like that by eshefer · · Score: 1

      "That only applies to commercial developers - non-commercial developers don't care how big the market is - they are writing stuff that _they_ want."

      so what.

    32. Re:I hate bosses like that by syousef · · Score: 1

      The employee stock from companies with the nice bosses hasn't done nearly as well over the long haul in my small statistical sampling. YMMV.

      Here's to selective sampling, and the fact that you're not my boss. Thank fuck for that.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    33. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      The main reason it's locked to a single provider (I only know the story in the US) is that Apple is signed into an exclusivity contract with AT&T. I'm sure that's not ideal, from Apple's point of view.

      They didn't have to sign an exclusivity deal - other cellphones do just fine without being tied to just one operator. Apple _chose_ to do it, probably because they could convince AT&T to pay them more that way (Apple make some serious amount of money from the kickbacks AT&T give them each time an iphone owner pays their monthly subscription).

      If the article these comments relate to has any truth to it, then only about 30 people saw the completed iPhone before its release.

      Does anyone consider this a good thing?! I certainly don't consider "oh, and we did no serious testing" to be a great selling point.

      I can't see a reason that Apple would *want* to keep people out.

      Licensing. If they can charge developers for each 3rd party utility sold then that makes them cash (look at the games console markets - kickbacks to the console manufacturer for every game sold). Also, it's possible that AT&T wanted to have some say on what applications people could use (for example, no VoIP).

      I know you'll say something like 'I don't want to have to modify my device' but to tide people over until the official SDK, we have web-based applications (some of which are fantastic, and you wouldn't know weren't native), and we have jailbreaking which so far has appeared to be very simple and safe.

      But customers shouldn't _have_ to hack their device in order to run 3rd party software - no smartphones require such things to run third party software (and remember, the hacks have dubious consequences with respect to your warranty and future upgrades).

      Again, I know this argument won't quiet you, but on the point of iPod+iTunes, I wouldn't *want* to use my iPod with anything but iTunes

      Just because _you_ don't want to do so doesn't mean that it should be made hard. Some of us don't even own a platform that could run iTunes (I have no use for either Windows or OS X). And yeah, people have reverse engineered the protocol and have produced third party utilities, but would it really have killed Apple to allow you to just dump tracks onto it as a USB mass storage device, or at least document the protocols?

    34. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Yes, that's what I'm saying. No company does "widespread consumer testing". Duh. They do testing in a small way, but no company releases their product to 100,000+ consumers to test it.

      Why do you need that many customers to do testing? A few thousand would do fine. And before you continue with your "no one does this scale of testing" I point you at the public beta programs run by many hardware and software vendors. For example, Microsoft's beta programs _do_ consist of many tens of thousands of testers.

      If Apple didn't bother to test their product properly then that is a serious flaw in their development procedures and needs to be addressed.

      Funny, all the phone UIs you just mentioned SUCK. So yes, they obviously were asking for trouble because they didn't get the UI right FIRST. You just made my point for me. Thanks.

      So your saying that Apple are far more competent than these companies (better UI) and yet they aren't competent enough to provide a platform they have faith in enough to allow third party developers loose on from the start? The UI has no bearing on the ability to run third party apps.

      No, YOU said they lock people out so they have all the control and make all the money. So, they obviously don't care what people want and they'd still be locking people out

      What's the point in putting lock on things if the locks don't work - all it was doing was generating bad press for Apple. Apple's initial plan to control the entire software stack failed, so they were left having to try and recover as gracefully as possible.

      Folks are camping out to get the things, even without the SDK that you think is so crucial.

      Ah yes, people who camp out for days to get their hands on a device that they would be able to just walk into a store and pick up without queuing a few days later - prime examples of people who have thought through their actions rationally.

      So looking at all those products that you said Apple locks me into I asked you where the lock was? If AT&T is the only lock you can think of then congratulations, you've made the exception prove the rule.

      It wasn't the only example I could think of - I cited several examples.

      The AT&T exclusive deal was necessary not to lock people in, but to get a carrier to work with Apple who would allow Apple to implement all the great ideas it has.

      You don't need an exclusivity deal for this - if they are really great features and the iPhone is a popular platform the telcos would implement the network-side support off their own backs because they could charge more for it.

      Downloading music from iTunes, syncing from the computer, allowing photos to be synced to the computer rather than charging them to send them over the network, etc.

      I'm unclear on how making data transfers over 802.11 requires any support from AT&T. Phones have been able to transfer files and synchronise with computers over 802.11 and bluetooth for years (without an exclusive contract with the telco). Nothing new here.

      Updating the music without iTunes? You can on iPods and as for either iPhones or iPods, why would you want to? It's easier to do it via iTunes.

      1. Because some people think iTunes sucks and want a choice of different applications to do the job
      2. Because last time I checked there wasn't a version of iTunes that ran under Linux
      3. Not every computer has iTunes installed - installing it is effort if you just want to access your device from someone else's machine as a 1-off thing.

      And yes, there are some third party applications that do this stuff, but only because their developers reverse engineered the protocols involved. Apple could have documented the protocols or used standard ones.

      Also 3G coverage is not ubiquitous in the US so a 3G only phone would end up hampering the iPhone's sales.

      The iPhone is not a US-only phone. If Apple only consider the US market when producing their produc

    35. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      "Massively overpriced" is a "fact", you say? It sold like hotcakes

      Just because people buy into the hype instead of looking to see what the competition is doing doesn't negate the fact that it is far more expensive than competing phones with superior feature sets.

      It's considered bad form to follow mock incredulity with an obvious falsehood.

      Where's the obvious falsehood? Can't see one - mustn't be that obvious.

      but would like to point out that Apple is a newcomer to the celphone industry.

      As were all the cited example companies at some point in the past.

      You're just making an unsubstantiated claim that Apple NEVER INTENDED to publish an SDK, because that idea is in step with how you imagine Apple to work.

      You're just making an unsubstantiated claim that Apple INTENDED to publish an SDK, because that idea is in step with how you imagine Apple to work.

      This is the company that runs the most profitable, established online music service

      Why do you seem to think that commercial success implies that they must be treating their customers well? Look at Microsoft - they are pretty successful and are the king of vendor-lockin and screwing their customers over.

      What exactly are you arguing here?

      The examples you have given of my arguments are in fact arguments I never made. It seems you are trying to put words into my mouth in an effort to support your cause.

      I see what you did there. You said SSH was common and that you use it all the time and that it saved you bacon, now you're saying you're not talking about SSH.

      You appear to be misinterpreting what I said (probably intentionally). The original poster made the implication that no one uses SSH from their phone. This is completely false - lots of people do so. However, the implication was made that using SSH is the *only* point of a smartphone, which is quite clearly a bogus argument. There are many thousands of third party applications for smartphones - SSH is just one of them.

      And wow, EVERYONE you know with a smartphone uses third party applications! Good then. Bound to be plenty of developers for the iPhone.

      Why will there be plenty of developers? People who use third party software on their phones are not inherently developers (in fact, very few of them are, and even fewer are developers for smartphone platforms). In any case, the aforementioned people don't own an iPhone since it is useless to them if they can't run their third party apps.

      Never mind that the charger and charging cable are only a little bit bigger than the phone itself.

      And a massive amount of use when you're no where near a power socket.

      Are you seriously saying that you'd rather have a 3G phone with a 4-hour battery life and a spare battery in your pocket, than a non-3G phone with an 8 hour battery life?

      No, I'm saying I would rather have a 3G phone with a reasonable battery life and the ability to change batteries if I need to. Frankly an 8 hour battery life for a non-3G phone is abysmal - my 4 year old smartphone's battery lasts about a week... oh, and it can play music and videos, surf the web, do calendaring and sync with my computer and work as a bluetooth/GPRS tether for my laptop...

    36. Re:I hate bosses like that by LKM · · Score: 1

      It should be noted that throwing a tantrum is bad manners, and this is independent of whether it's an asshat or a saint doing it. So you've worked under Jobs and seen him "throwing a tantrum"? That's certainly intersting.

      Only a fool Wait, you're actually trolling me. Please ignore my answer to your other post, as I will yours from now on. I suggest you get a job or a girlfriend or something to occupy your time. Thanks, and have a nice life.
    37. Re:I hate bosses like that by Serious+Callers+Only · · Score: 1

      Sure, the iPhone's UI is supposed to be excellent, but what's the good in a nice UI if the phone is lacking the the features the target market needs?


      Let me turn that around for you to the non-geek (i.e. majority) perspective -

      Sure, phone x has loads of features, but what's the good in lots of features if the UI is so shoddy you can't use them?
    38. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "A few thousand would do fine"

      -No, not on an ultra secret project where even the hardware and software engineers didn't know the big picture. Apple goes through great pains to hide what they're doing and then they hand it out to a few thousand? Not too smart.

      "Microsoft's beta programs _do_ consist of many tens of thousands of testers"

      -Is this the same Microsoft that releases a product that has over 150,000 viruses for it? Not the best example of how to conduct business is it? Oh, and in case you forgot, ultra secret project! Tens of thousands of testers=no secret.

      "If Apple didn't bother to test their product properly then that is a serious flaw in their development procedures and needs to be addressed."

      -Again, ultra secret project, so the testing was done in the lab. Why don't you go back and read the article and get back to me.

      "You don't need an exclusivity deal for this - if they are really great features and the iPhone is a popular platform the telcos would implement the network-side support off their own backs because they could charge more for it."

      -If you're right or wrong here you still prove my point. If they don't implement the changes for ONE phone (not likely considering their record on this) then the features are useless. If they do make the changes and then charge more for it then they over-price it. Either way the great features are not used because they're not implemented or overpriced by short sighted carriers. The reality is they would have not made any changes to their business practices to accomodate the iPhone. The carriers in the US routinely crippled the features on phones and still do so you're wrong on this one. And yes, I know there are other markets besides the US, but you mentioned AT&T so that's what I'm addressing.

      "I'm unclear on how making data transfers over 802.11 requires any support from AT&T."

      -I'm unclear on why you're mentioning 802.11 since I said nothing about that in my post. Seems like you're arguing with yourself on this one.

      1. Because some people think iTunes sucks and want a choice of different applications to do the job
      - Then use another one or blame someone else because they haven't developed something else. Don't blame Apple for someone else not developing anything. The reason nothing has been developed is there is little to no market for it. The slice of the market that thumb their nose at iTunes is so slim to make the market not worth it.
      2. Because last time I checked there wasn't a version of iTunes that ran under Linux
      -Because I use Macs in my business I understand how this can be a frustration. If an application is not made for your OS it's frustrating, but again, the Linux desktop market is dwarfed even by Apple so the it just isn't worth the effort. Not to mention which flavor of the ton of Linux versions do you concentrate on? There are bound to be incompatabilities between versions of Linux so that's another reason to avoid that market.
      3. Not every computer has iTunes installed - installing it is effort if you just want to access your device from someone else's machine as a 1-off thing."
      -Installing it is not effort. Talk about making stuff up here. Click a button, it downloads. Click a button, it installs. Why do you need to access your device from someone else's computer?

      "The iPhone is not a US-only phone. If Apple only consider the US market when producing their products they are nuts."

      -They're nuts of they don't make a phone that works in the broadest number of markets possible. 3G would have been the incorrect choice right now. To hamper the iPhones appeal in the US by releasing a phone that didn't have coverage in many markets would have been nuts.

      "I have worked in the telephony networking and applications sector for a good few years"

      -Again, what are your qualifications in phone development? Because I still don't see your experience in creating a phone project from the ground up and deciding on what

    39. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      No, not on an ultra secret project where even the hardware and software engineers didn't know the big picture. Apple goes through great pains to hide what they're doing and then they hand it out to a few thousand? Not too smart.

      So the customers must suffer purchasing an untested product because of Apple's marketing strategy? That sounds like a pretty bad situation.

      Is this the same Microsoft that releases a product that has over 150,000 viruses for it? Not the best example of how to conduct business is it?

      Yep, the very same Microsoft - if that's what happens when you actually bother to do product testing I dread to think what happens when you don't.

      Again, ultra secret project, so the testing was done in the lab. Why don't you go back and read the article and get back to me.

      I already read the article thanks, and I don't consider a marketing strategy to be a good reason for giving customers a potentially sucky experience by doing no serious testing.

      I'm unclear on why you're mentioning 802.11 since I said nothing about that in my post. Seems like you're arguing with yourself on this one.

      You mentioned syncing data without going over the carrier's network. I presume you must mean 802.11 or Bluetooth unless Apple have found a way to transfer data by magic.

      Not to mention which flavor of the ton of Linux versions do you concentrate on? There are bound to be incompatabilities between versions of Linux so that's another reason to avoid that market.

      So allow the use of a standard protocol instead of forcing people to reverse engineer a proprietary one.

      Installing it is not effort. Talk about making stuff up here. Click a button, it downloads. Click a button, it installs.

      Installing it is not effort so long as the sysadmin hasn't locked your machine down (e.g. you're at work), or your friend (if you're using a friend's machine) will let you. Frankly, I don't let my friends install random software on my machines.

      Why do you need to access your device from someone else's computer?

      To copy music or videos onto it when you're not at home?

      They're nuts of they don't make a phone that works in the broadest number of markets possible. 3G would have been the incorrect choice right now. To hamper the iPhones appeal in the US by releasing a phone that didn't have coverage in many markets would have been nuts.

      Here you're talking complete crap - using 3G wouldn't have reduced the coverage since 3G phones are quite happy talking GSM when there's no 3G available. Instead, by not implementing 3G they have hampered the iPhones appeal in pretty much every country outside the US.

    40. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "So the customers must suffer purchasing an untested product because of Apple's marketing strategy? That sounds like a pretty bad situation."

      -Yet the customers didn't suffer and the strategy was successful. That sounds like Apple knew better than you once again.

      "Yep, the very same Microsoft - if that's what happens when you actually bother to do product testing I dread to think what happens when you don't."

      -Well they didn't do that testing on the iPhone and customers have had glowing reviews on the iPhone, the highest satisfaction rating of any phone. Compare that to Vista's reviews and ratings. It shows how a company focused on quality like Apple can do things that other companies can't and that narrow minded European telco janitors like yourself can't envision.

      "I don't consider a marketing strategy to be a good reason for giving customers a potentially sucky experience by doing no serious testing."

      -Good thing you don't make multimillion dollar decisions then because it worked for Apple. And they did do "serious testing" ( as opposed to non-serious testing?), but they didn't do a public beta because it was SECRET. Obviously you should read the article again, this time with your eyes open.

      "You mentioned syncing data without going over the carrier's network. I presume you must mean 802.11 or Bluetooth unless Apple have found a way to transfer data by magic."

      -Yes, iTunes and a dock. That's not magic, although it works so well for consumers they probably think it is magic in comparison to poorly thought out ways of syncing by 3rd party apps.

      "So allow the use of a standard protocol instead of forcing people to reverse engineer a proprietary one."

      -They do have standard protocols to talk to iPods/iPhones. Tons of 3rd party accessory makers utilize them all the time. Apple hasn't "forced" anyone to reverse engineer anything.

      "Installing it is not effort so long as the sysadmin hasn't locked your machine down (e.g. you're at work), or your friend (if you're using a friend's machine) will let you. Frankly, I don't let my friends install random software on my machines."

      -And Apple is to blame for this in what way? . . . . Since you hate it when you're locked out so much maybe you should be blaming other people for locking you out of their machine rather than erroneously blaming Apple for you friends' (and yours by your own admission) policy of lock out. Funny that you embrace locking people out of things when it's you or your friends making the decision. You sure do seem to find ways to blame Apple for what other people do, don't you? Other people are "forced" by Apple to reverse engineer protocols. And now Apple is somehow to blame for the fact that someone else's machine (and yours too) are locked down. Yes friend, that's right, it's ALL Apple's fault. Can you tell me what else we should blame them for that they've had no involvement in? Maybe China would be free if Apple allowed you to copy your videos to your friends computer? Your lack of logic in your arguments reinforces my opinion that you just hate Apple and are basing your arguments on that instead of reality.

      "To copy music or videos onto it when you're not at home?"

      -So let me get this straight. You have your dream 3G phone with all the cutting edge features and you want to offload your videos to a friends computer? Either your phone isn't quite so enjoyable to watch a video on or you're sharing files. If it's the former then you should blame your phone's manufacturer and not Apple. If it's the latter then you shouldn't blame Apple when they don't help you steal content. And if you just want to use the music/videos on your friends system you can use a 3rd party accessory to play it. I don't see why you blame Apple for the fact that you can't copy content on to your friends machine. It makes as much sense as blaming Ford for not allowing you to install a Ford part on a BMW car.

      And as for the 3G thing. The power consumption is still pro

    41. Re:I hate bosses like that by kv9 · · Score: 1

      [wall of text snipped] why don't you tell us how you really feel?
    42. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      Boy you sure did get a beat down by Garote!! Hahahahaha!

    43. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Yet the customers didn't suffer and the strategy was successful. That sounds like Apple knew better than you once again.

      Certainly not my interpretation of events - the customers had to suffer not being able to run any third party software (without unofficial hacks that may void their warranty).

      that narrow minded European telco janitors like yourself

      I beg your pardon? Have you so few valid points that you feel you need to resort to name calling?

      Yes, iTunes and a dock.

      So once again, I ask how this requires support from the service provider (if you remember, this made up part of your argument as to why Apple needed an exclusivity deal with AT&T). I also feel I should point out that every phone and PDA I've owned for the past 7 years has handled syncing just fine (over a dock or bluetooth) - this is nothing new.

      They do have standard protocols to talk to iPods/iPhones. Tons of 3rd party accessory makers utilize them all the time. Apple hasn't "forced" anyone to reverse engineer anything.

      Feel free to point me at the freely available official specs for these protocols.

      And Apple is to blame for this in what way?

      Because they chose to implement the iPod so that it couldn't have music/videos loaded onto it through a standard well supported protocol, such as USB Mass Storage.

      Funny that you embrace locking people out of things when it's you or your friends making the decision.

      If it happens to be *my* PC I have every right to lock other people out of it. On the other hand, If I own an MP3 player then why should the manufacturer lock me out of my own property?

      Either your phone isn't quite so enjoyable to watch a video

      Well, given the choice between watching a video on the phone's screen and watching it on a 24" monitor I know which I would choose.

      you're sharing files

      What's wrong with that?

      you shouldn't blame Apple when they don't help you steal content.

      By "steal" you presumably mean "infringe copyrights on" - copyright infringement is not stealing, they are completely different laws.

      Also, why are you assuming I don't have a legal right to copy the content? Maybe I own the copyright, or the content is distributed under a Free licence such as a Creative Commons licence.

      I don't see why you blame Apple for the fact that you can't copy content on to your friends machine. It makes as much sense as blaming Ford for not allowing you to install a Ford part on a BMW car.

      So are you now saying that an iPhone and iPod are parts of a bigger product, rather than products in their own right? That's certainly not how they are marketed.

    44. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "Certainly not my interpretation of events - the customers had to suffer not being able to run any third party software"

      -As we've seen in your past posts your interpretation of events rarely resembles reality. And nobody "suffered". Talk about grandstanding. The launch was successful and the iPhone enjoys the HIGHEST customer satisfaction ratings of any phone. That doesn't sound like suffering to me.

      "I beg your pardon? Have you so few valid points that you feel you need to resort to name calling?"

      -Well you've demonstrated your ignorance on every post, or you're just a blatant liar, so I figure your experience at a telco that you mentioned earlier had to be in the janitorial department since you obviously have very little understanding of the issues we've talked about.

      "I ask how this requires support from the service provider "

      -Because service providers in the US habitually disabled functionality like this on handsets. They tried to force sending photos, music, etc. over the network to charge more. Handset makers who didn't disable the features the carriers didn't like would find that their handset was not allowed or supported on a carriers network. To break that cycle Apple had to make an exclusive deal with a carrier. You obviously don't understand the US market and it's history and challenges.

      "Feel free to point me at the freely available official specs for these protocols."

      -I don't know if they're free, but 3rd party accessory makers seem to have all the knowledge on how to talk with the iPhone and/or iPod. Is that magic or are the protocols available? While we're at it, feel free to point me to someone that Apple "forced" to reverse engineer protocols, or someone who was forced to "suffer". You seem to make grand unsubstantiated claims of suffering and bondage at the hands of Apple yet I've never heard of any of this from anyone.

      "Because they chose to implement the iPod so that it couldn't have music/videos loaded onto it through a standard well supported protocol, such as USB Mass Storage."

      -And this is a preferable way to load content over iTunes? It's a tedious, manual way to do it. They're designing a consumer product to appeal to a lot of people, not just nerds who use SSH and who want to share files with their friends. They also operate an online store for music and must have reasonable safeguards put in place to prevent filesharing or content providers won't cut deals with them.

      "If it happens to be *my* PC I have every right to lock other people out of it."

      -If it happens to be their product then they have the right to make the decisions on the best ways to implement features. When you build a phone then you can make those decisions. Your hypocrisy knows no bounds. You stamp your foot when you don't have complete unfettered access to every feature and yet you wouldn't allow that access on YOUR computer.

      "Well, given the choice between watching a video on the phone's screen and watching it on a 24" monitor I know which I would choose."

      -Then watch it on the monitor, no one's stopping you. I have music/movies on my computer in iTunes. I can watch them on my monitor, in my living room via AppleTV, on my iPod, and on my iPhone. Look at all the choices. And it's all EASY. So no one is stopping you from watching it.

      "By "steal" you presumably mean "infringe copyrights on" - copyright infringement is not stealing, they are completely different laws. Also, why are you assuming I don't have a legal right to copy the content? Maybe I own the copyright, or the content is distributed under a Free licence such as a Creative Commons licence."

      -Ahh, the lawyer splitting hairs. Copyright infringement IS stealing. You can wrap it any way you want, but you know it is stealing because you're not paying for the content. And I'm sure you don't have the rights because you just tried to split legal hairs about copyright infringement vs. stealing and your use of the word "maybe" and your cheesy

    45. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "Just because people buy into the hype instead of looking to see what the competition is doing doesn't negate the fact that it is far more expensive than competing phones with superior feature sets."

      -People aren't paying for hype. They're paying for a well thought out, easy to use phone that gives most people the features they want. It's not hype that the iPhone has the highest customer satisfaction numbers.

      "You're just making an unsubstantiated claim that Apple INTENDED to publish an SDK, because that idea is in step with how you imagine Apple to work."

      -Well, I'd say his claim has more credibility than yours because Apple has a desktop OS with an SDK and they obviously understand the importance of 3rd party apps. Despite your false claims they haven't locked people out of their desktop OS have they. But you say they lock everyone one. I'd say it's more likely they didn't want to delay the iPhone rollout simply because the SDK was not ready yet.

      "Why do you seem to think that commercial success implies that they must be treating their customers well?"

      -Why do you continue to ignore customer satisfaction numbers with iPhone and Apple in general, that lead the industry. Obviously those number DO mean they are treating their customers well or they wouldn't be so high or leading everyone else. Game, set and match!

      "The original poster made the implication that no one uses SSH from their phone. "

      -I am the original poster and (surprise, you're lying again!) I did NOT imply that "no one uses SSH from their phone". I asked "who the F uses SSH from a phone." That's hardly making the implication you stated. Please stop lying.

      "Why will there be plenty of developers? People who use third party software on their phones are not inherently developers "

      -Wow, I can't believe you don't understand what he's saying. He's saying that if what you say is true, that EVERYONE you know uses 3rd party apps, then the demand will obviously be there and app developers will flock to the platform. Simple logic. I'm not sure if you really didn't understand this or if you're intentionally twisting the argument because you don't have a leg to stand on again.

      "and even fewer are developers for smartphone platforms"

      -Well well, you just admitted the iPhone was a smartphone. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

      "And a massive amount of use when you're no where near a power socket."

      -You're nowhere near a power socket. . . right . . .don't tell me, you're in the middle of the Sahara. No, wait, you're on safari in Africa. No, no, I've got it, you're climbing Everest and you need to SSH into work? Nowhere near a power socket. . . Please stop lying.

      "my 4 year old smartphone's battery lasts about a week"

      -My non-smartphone won't last that long without doing any of that functionality so I doubt your 4 year old smartphone lasted that long. Please stop lying.

    46. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Well you've demonstrated your ignorance on every post, or you're just a blatant liar

      It's pretty arrogant to assume someone is ignorant or a liar just because they have different views than yourself.

      so I figure your experience at a telco that you mentioned earlier had to be in the janitorial department since you obviously have very little understanding of the issues we've talked about.

      At the aforementioned companies I was a network software developer for a number of years. Also, they aren't telcos - maybe you should get some understanding of what you are talking about before you start accusing people of being liars.

      You obviously don't understand the US market and it's history and challenges.

      Sounds like the US market needs better regulation to me, rather than exclusive deals to further restrict customers.

      I don't know if they're free

      Exactly my point.

      While we're at it, feel free to point me to someone that Apple "forced" to reverse engineer protocols, or someone who was forced to "suffer"

      I know a number of people who either choose not to use iTunes because they dislike the interface, or cannot use iTunes because they use Linux. Were it not for people reverse engineering the proprietary protocols then these people would be unable to use an iPod.

      And this is a preferable way to load content over iTunes?

      I didn't say that did I? Once again you are putting words into my mouth in an effort to support your flawed arguments. It is an *alternative* method, which would be very useful in situations where iTunes is not available.

      It's a tedious, manual way to do it.

      No it isn't - you can do automated file management over the USB Mass Storage protocol, my MP3 player manages it just fine.

      They're designing a consumer product to appeal to a lot of people, not just nerds who use SSH and who want to share files with their friends.

      And allowing people to use a standard protocol as well as iTunes would reduce this appeal because...?

      They also operate an online store for music and must have reasonable safeguards put in place to prevent filesharing or content providers won't cut deals with them

      And here we have it - you're saying that Apple are intentionally restricting the functionality of their product so that they can sell a different product?

      You stamp your foot when you don't have complete unfettered access to every feature and yet you wouldn't allow that access on YOUR computer.

      I object to manufacturers restricting what I can do with *my* property. My computer happens to be my property so I can do with it what the hell I want.

      Copyright infringement IS stealing. You can wrap it any way you want, but you know it is stealing because you're not paying for the content.

      No, sorry, you're completely wrong - copyright infringement is wrong but it isn't stealing. The act of stealing denies property from the legitimate owner and is a criminal offense. Copyright infringement does no such thing - it _potentially_ denies them licence fees (which the infringer may or may not have paid anyway, even if they chose not to infringe) but it does not deny them their property. Copyright infringement is a civil offense.

      And I'm sure you don't have the rights because you just tried to split legal hairs about copyright infringement vs. stealing and your use of the word "maybe" and your cheesy attempt to pull the Creative Commons license rabbit out of the hat. No, if you had the rights you wouldn't be splitting hairs or making fictional arguments. You're stealing and you're mad at Apple because they haven't made that easy for you.

      I am neither stealing, nor infringing copyrights - the only content I share happens to be content which has a Free licence and content that I created. For other content, I purchase it on CD, DVD, etc. and don't share it.

      What the heck are you talking about? I never sa

    47. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Well, I'd say his claim has more credibility than yours because Apple has a desktop OS with an SDK and they obviously understand the importance of 3rd party apps.

      And they have a phone without an SDK and have publicly said that they aren't happy about people hacking it to allow third party applications.

      Despite your false claims they haven't locked people out of their desktop OS have they.

      When did I say they did?

      I am the original poster and (surprise, you're lying again!) I did NOT imply that "no one uses SSH from their phone". I asked "who the F uses SSH from a phone." That's hardly making the implication you stated. Please stop lying.

      How else would you interpret that?

      Well well, you just admitted the iPhone was a smartphone.

      No, I don't believe I did.

      HAHAHAHAHAHA!

      Are you 13 years old or something?

      You're nowhere near a power socket. . . right . . .don't tell me, you're in the middle of the Sahara. No, wait, you're on safari in Africa. No, no, I've got it, you're climbing Everest and you need to SSH into work? Nowhere near a power socket. . . Please stop lying.

      It's pretty common for me to be out of contact with a power socket for a week or so - there aren't too many sockets around when you're wildcamping at the top of a mountain or otherwise away from civilisation. And there you go talking about SSH again - the battery in your phone enables you do use it for *anything* not just SSH. You're not going to be making many voice calls without a working battery.

      My non-smartphone won't last that long without doing any of that functionality so I doubt your 4 year old smartphone lasted that long. Please stop lying.

      I'm not lying. If you choose to buy a phone with a crap battery life then that's up to you. Sony quote a standby time of 480 hours for the P900, and whilst I will agree that this is a massive overestimate, I do get well in excess of 100 hours out of it in normal use.

    48. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "It's pretty arrogant to assume someone is ignorant or a liar just because they have different views than yourself."

      -It's not that you disagree. I'm fine with that. It's that you've been making stuff up to back your arguements. That leads me to believe you're either ignorant or a liar.\

      "Sounds like the US market needs better regulation to me, rather than exclusive deals to further restrict customers."

      -Then you agree Apple is not to blame for the current state of the US market and they may have had to make an exclusive deal with a carrier to implement the changes they needed as well as having their handset allowed on the carriers network. Thanks. That's the whole point I've been trying to make regarding Apple's deal with AT&T. It has never been about lockout.

      "I know a number of people who either choose not to use iTunes because they dislike the interface, or cannot use iTunes because they use Linux. Were it not for people reverse engineering the proprietary protocols then these people would be unable to use an iPod."

      -Another admission, thank you. Apple did not "force" anyone. You just stated those people "choose".

      "I didn't say that did I? Once again you are putting words into my mouth in an effort to support your flawed arguments."

      -I didn't put those words in your mouth. (Please stop lying) I asked a question. Note the question mark at the end of my question. That denotes a question.

      "No it isn't - you can do automated file management over the USB Mass Storage protocol,"

      -Yes, it's is. It's a pain because I have no playlists. Just shuffling files over via USB does not give you the same experience, and most people do NOT want to manage their sync this way. They like iTunes because it's EASY. If you don't then don't use it. But the ease of iTunes use is what has made it so popular for people to buy content, sync content to their iPods/iPhones, manage playlists, etc. 99% of the people do NOT want, not would they be able to figure out "automated file management". Your views do not represent the mass of consumers that Apple develops for and that is why they do not have a specific solution that caters only to you.

      "My computer happens to be my property so I can do with it what the hell I want."

      -Right, and Apple has not stopped you from doing anything with your property. You've got YOUR computer locked down (even though you think it's wrong for others to implement some basic security to prevent hassles). Apple has not affected what you can do with your computer. But they have implemented certain features in certain ways on the products they create because it makes it easier for most people to use them. That is THEIR right. You don't like it then don't buy something from Apple. When you make a phone then you can decide on features.

      "The act of stealing denies property from the legitimate owner and is a criminal offense. Copyright infringement does no such thing - it _potentially_ denies them licence fees (which the infringer may or may not have paid anyway, even if they chose not to infringe) but it does not deny them their property."

      -Right, you've denied them the licensing fee which is money which is their property under the law. Thanks for making my point.

      "I am neither stealing, nor infringing copyrights - the only content I share happens to be content which has a Free licence and content that I created."

      -I don't believe you. And even if that were true, why is it Apple's job to create a way for you to share your content? If it's your content they YOU figure out how to share it. Don't blame Apple.

      "So what was your analogy of using a Ford part in a BMW car all about? It appeared you were comparing the iPod to a car part."

      -You complain that Apple doesn't interface the way you want it to with another system, but why is Apple's responsibility to do that for you. They've created an interface for Windows and Macs called iTunes. That is what they created and support. You

    49. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "And they have a phone without an SDK and have publicly said that they aren't happy about people hacking it to allow third party applications."

      -The SDK is coming in Feb. so your argument is moot in less one month. Will you suddenly stop whining about the SDK and admit the iPhone is a smartphone then? I doubt it. You just don't like Apple. And as for hacking it, I don't recall seeing anywhere that they said they aren't happy about people hacking it, they just have said they won't support the phone if someone hacks it, and that is not surprising. If someone hacks it they can mess it up and Apple should not support it then.

      "Despite your false claims .. . .When did I say they did?"

      You said they lock people out. I'm citing plenty of examples that refute your statement. The desktop OS and the available SDK is one example. Your claims of Apple lockout are what I was addressing and you know it. Please stop trying to change the argument when you know what I meant.

      "How else would you interpret that?"

      Asking "who the F uses SSH on their phone" does NOT imply that NO ONE uses it. It doesn't. It's a question. Note the question mark when I originally asked it? Do you understand punctuation?

      "No, I don't believe I did."

      -yes, you did.

      "when you're wildcamping at the top of a mountain"

      -I backpack a lot and I don't use my phone when I'm out there. It kind of defeats the purpose of going there in the first place. I turn my phone off completely when I'm out because I'm usually so far away from civilization that there isn't even cell coverage. When I am back in range of cell coverage then I turn my phone back on. No sockets, no battery problems. Issue solved.

      "Sony quote a standby time of 480 hours for the P900, and whilst I will agree that this is a massive overestimate, I do get well in excess of 100 hours out of it in normal use."

      And yet you never stated standby time did you. You compared 8 hours of iPhone battery (NOT the standby time numbers I might add) with standby time in another phone?. I know you don't get 100 hours of USE from that phone, you get 100 hours of standby but not USE, so your whole comparison seems to be apples to oranges and not valid. If you want to compare standby time then compare that. if you want to compare usage then compare that. But you're obviously twisting the comparison to make the iPhone look bad. That is consistent with the rest of your misrepresentations and that is why I call you a liar.

    50. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      It's not that you disagree. I'm fine with that. It's that you've been making stuff up to back your arguements. That leads me to believe you're either ignorant or a liar.

      I've been doing no such thing.

      Then you agree Apple is not to blame for the current state of the US market and they may have had to make an exclusive deal with a carrier to implement the changes they needed as well as having their handset allowed on the carriers network. Thanks. That's the whole point I've been trying to make regarding Apple's deal with AT&T. It has never been about lockout.

      If they were only doing it in the US market I might agree with you. However, they are also doing it in the European market where it is illegal. (I.e. they are ignoring their legal obligations because they have determined their commercial gains will be more than any losses due to legal action).

      Another admission, thank you. Apple did not "force" anyone. You just stated those people "choose".

      People who do not use Windows or OS X certainly do not "choose" not to use iTunes - they are unable to do so.

      Yes, it's is. It's a pain because I have no playlists.

      Playlists can (and are on other devices) be implemented quite well by text files which can be manipulated by both the player itself and whatever management software you choose to use on the PC side.

      most people do NOT want to manage their sync this way.

      Which is why I didn't suggest removing iTunes support - just providing access through a standardised protocol *as well*.

      99% of the people do NOT want, not would they be able to figure out "automated file management".

      I'm pretty sure that over 1% of people would use it were it available. I'm not saying they need to provide the complete iTunes featureset, I'm saying it's something that would be really useful for those times when you don't have access to iTunes.

      even though you think it's wrong for others to implement some basic security to prevent hassles

      When did I say that?

      Right, you've denied them the licensing fee which is money which is their property under the law. Thanks for making my point.

      No, it isn't their property until it has been given to them. And it is entirely possible that the infringer would just plain not have purchased the content if they hadn't infringed the copyright.

      I don't believe you.

      That is your right, but it doesn't make what I said any less true.

      You complain that Apple doesn't interface the way you want it to with another system, but why is Apple's responsibility to do that for you.

      It isn't Apple's responsibility to make it interface with another system. However, it should be their responsibility to publish the protocols required to do so, so as to allow interoperability.

      Tell that to the TONS of 3rd party accessory makers who are using these protocols to interface with the iPod/iPhone

      Who have either had to reverse engineer the protocol, or (more likely) have had to pay Apple a licence for the specs (no doubt under NDA).

    51. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "I've been doing no such thing."

      -You have and you know it. You've been saying things like Apple locks people in. Not true. You said people are "forced" by Apple to do something. Not true. You say people "suffered" because of no 3rd party apps. Not true. You've been making stuff up left and right and you know it.

      "However, they are also doing it in the European market where it is illegal."

      -Then it sounds like Europe needs to enforce it's laws. Write to them instead.

      "People who do not use Windows or OS X certainly do not "choose" not to use iTunes - they are unable to do so."

      -So Apple has to make a version of iTunes (which you complain you don't like) for every also-ran OS? That doesn't make economic sense for them to do.

      "I'm pretty sure that over 1% of people would use it were it available."

      -Then why don't you develop something for that huge market?

      "No, it isn't their property until it has been given to them. And it is entirely possible that the infringer would just plain not have purchased the content if they hadn't infringed the copyright."

      -You're not giving them money that's due to them. That's stealing. Wrap it up any way you want but you've taken something that belongs to them. And your other argument is ridiculous! That's like saying it's entirely possible the jewel thief wouldn't have paid for the jewels if he wouldn't have stolen the jewels first. It's stealing.

      "it should be their responsibility to publish the protocols required to do so, so as to allow interoperability."

      -Use the same protocols 3rd party accessory makers use which Apple provides them. Not so tough.

      "Who have either had to reverse engineer the protocol, or (more likely) have had to pay Apple a licence for the specs (no doubt under NDA)."

      -I realize that someone like yourself who splits hairs to justify stealing has a tough time understanding this, but that's called commerce. You don't get everything for free. And since the specs are available then you just made my point that you could use them if you want.

    52. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1
      And as for hacking it, I don't recall seeing anywhere that they said they aren't happy about people hacking it

      Well, they put out a warning that an update would brick hacked phones, and then when they released the update it did. So even if they didn't engineer the update to do this they certainly knew about the problem and did nothing. (You, of course will claim that Apple have no obligation to support hacked devices, and you'd be right. However, it is rather suspicious that they announced there would be a problem but did nothing to resolve it, preferring to let their customers brick their phones.)

      Other than that, they have openly indicated that they are opposed to people hacking the phones. From a BBC article in September:

      At the launch of the iPhone in the UK, Apple boss Steve Jobs admitted that the firm was engaged in a "game of cat and mouse" with the hackers.


      You said they lock people out. I'm citing plenty of examples that refute your statement. The desktop OS and the available SDK is one example. Your claims of Apple lockout are what I was addressing and you know it. Please stop trying to change the argument when you know what I meant.

      Not once have I said that Apple lock people out of their desktop OS.

      Note the question mark when I originally asked it? Do you understand punctuation?

      Yes, and I answered the question. Never the less, the tone of the question quite clearly indicated that you thought the very idea laughable.

      yes, you did.

      Maybe you'd like to cite examples.

      I backpack a lot and I don't use my phone when I'm out there. It kind of defeats the purpose of going there in the first place.

      There are many times when I want to use my phone for something while I am away from civilisation. For example, if I am on a sailing trip I use it to find out current weather conditions and get forecasts - this is quite important when working out where to sail and what sort of kit to use.

      And yet you never stated standby time did you. You compared 8 hours of iPhone battery (NOT the standby time numbers I might add) with standby time in another phone?. I know you don't get 100 hours of USE from that phone, you get 100 hours of standby but not USE, so your whole comparison seems to be apples to oranges and not valid.

      On a "heavy usage day" I get over 18 hours from my phone (with its 4 year old battery), which includes a good solid 6 hours or so using it as a bluetooth/GSM teather for my notebook.

      That is consistent with the rest of your misrepresentations and that is why I call you a liar.

      I haven't misrepresented anything - you quoted a battery life without stating under what conditions you were using it, and I quoted the life I get out of my phone complete with information about the conditions I was talking about.
    53. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      You've been making stuff up left and right and you know it.

      Having and expressing a personal opinion does not constitute "making stuff up".

      Then it sounds like Europe needs to enforce it's laws. Write to them instead.

      My point is that your "Apple needs exclusive contracts" argument doesn't really hold water when they go about using them in places where they quite blatantly don't need them. I certainly don't consider Apple to be an especially ethical organisation when it chooses to break the law because the commercial gain outweighs the possible legal action.

      So Apple has to make a version of iTunes (which you complain you don't like) for every also-ran OS?

      No, as I have been saying from the start, they need to either allow the use of standard protocols or freely publish their proprietary protocols. Personally I would prefer them to allow the use of a standardised protocol such as USB Mass Storage since that would allow the device to be accessed without installing any further software.

      You're not giving them money that's due to them. That's stealing.

      No, it isn't. Stealing is taking from their possession something that someone owns. They do not own the money until it has been given to them, thus if they are never given the money no theft has occurred. This is quite a clear legal construct I'm afraid - just because certain organisations choose to promote the idea that copyright infringement is stealing doesn't make it true.

      Wrap it up any way you want but you've taken something that belongs to them.

      No you haven't - if you copy a CD the owner of the CD still has it, you haven't taken it. You have infringed the copyright of the content, you have not stolen the CD.

      That's like saying it's entirely possible the jewel thief wouldn't have paid for the jewels if he wouldn't have stolen the jewels first.

      If you steal some jewels you are guilty of stealing the jewels - you are not guilty of stealing the money you would have paid if you had bought them. Thus if you copy some copyrighted material you cannot be guilty of stealing some money and you can't be guilty of stealing the content itself since the owner still has the content. A copyright infringer is no more stealing content than someone taking a photo of your car is stealing your car.

      Use the same protocols 3rd party accessory makers use which Apple provides them. Not so tough.

      Please point me at the official website where I can download the protocol specs.

    54. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "they put out a warning that an update would brick hacked phones"

      -No no no, they put out a warning that an update MAY brick hacked phones. Not the same as it will. They were just letting folks know that if you hacked your phone you run the risk of it being bricked by future iPhone updates and that Apple is not responsible.

      "Not once have I said that Apple lock people out of their desktop OS."

      -Okay, maybe you can clarify. If that you claim people are locked into Apple services/products or locked out or what. Because your complaint has been Apple and the perception that they lock you in or out or up or down or something. The whole point I'm making is that the lack of an SDK from day 1 does not mean they never intended to lock people out of 3rd party apps. Apple knows the value of the SDK and 3rd party apps and they just didn't want to delay the iPhone release because an SDK was not ready from day one. Unfortunately they tried a delay tactic that was a bit insulting the developers (the Web 2.0 apps) and that didn't go down well. But I don't doubt for a second an SDK was always planned because they have too much experience with an OS and 3rd party apps to not understand the benefits.

      "the tone of the question quite clearly indicated that you thought the very idea laughable."

      -Not so much laughable as laughable that such a small user segment had to be represented on day 1. What percentage of users will utilize stuff like this. Less than 1%? So although it may be nice to do it certainly is not reason enough to delay a launch simply because an SDK is not ready from day 1.

      "I get over 18 hours from my phone "

      -I find it hard to believe you can get 18 hours of USE out of a phone battery. Your phone battery must be the size of a car battery?

    55. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "Having and expressing a personal opinion does not constitute "making stuff up"."

      -Saying that Apple "forces" people to do something or that people "suffer" at the hands of Apple is a bit beyond personal opinion. Your hyperbole makes Chicken Little look conservative in comparison.

      "My point is that your "Apple needs exclusive contracts" argument doesn't really hold water when they go about using them in places where they quite blatantly don't need them."

      -I know why Apple chose to deal with the devil in the US. As to other markets I don't know if it's purely financial or if it involves network changes (visual voicemail), pricing plans (unlimited data), etc. I know that carriers don't just make changes like that unless it benefits them (being the exclusive carrier of the most anticipated phone) and that's probably why the exclusive contracts.

      "No, as I have been saying from the start, they need to either allow the use of standard protocols or freely publish their proprietary protocols."

      -As I said before, proprietary protocols are not necessarily bad and they don't have to "freely" do anything. I don't understand your insistence that it be free. The protocols are available since accessory makers use them all the time, but there's no law, moral or statutory, that saws they have to give it away.

      "No, it isn't. Stealing is taking from their possession something that someone owns. They do not own the money until it has been given to them, thus if they are never given the money no theft has occurred. This is quite a clear legal construct I'm afraid - just because certain organisations choose to promote the idea that copyright infringement is stealing doesn't make it true."

      -If the money for your paycheck was stolen from your employer before it had been given to you then you'd darn well change your tune. You can quote a legal construct left and right, but you'd feel (and rightly so) that your paycheck had been stolen from you even though you never received it. I'm not a fan of the MPAA/RIAA either, they suck and I hope they wither and die, but their shitty licensing schemes aside, not paying for a copyrighted work is still stealing. I don't care how the law might separate them, my example above is a perfect illustration of how anyone would feel if their paycheck was stolen before it was given to them.

      "A copyright infringer is no more stealing content than someone taking a photo of your car is stealing your car."

      -Not really the same is it? I see where you try to go with this, but it just isn't valid. Just because they original person doesn't lose the original item doesn't mean you're not morally stealing by copying. You know you are morally obligated to pay for that item because the people who own it (yes, the shitty media cartels) have not given you permission to take it for free. Because of that it is stealing. I don't care about the law on this, it is stealing because you haven't paid for something that you should have. Or, conversely, you have something your shouldnt' have. You can't rationalize your way out of that reality.

      "Please point me at the official website where I can download the protocol specs."

      -I suggest going to the Apple Developer network or contact Apple. You know they're available just as much as I do. Just because I can't supply you with a particular page URL doesn't mean that they aren't available and that tons of 3rd parties aren't using them already. If they're not free well then they're not free, but price should not be confused with availability.

    56. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      What percentage of users will utilize stuff like this. Less than 1%?

      From personal experience I can tell you that the number of people who run 3rd party apps on phones is _significantly_ higher than 1% (and yes, this includes, but is not limited to, SSH).

      I find it hard to believe you can get 18 hours of USE out of a phone battery. Your phone battery must be the size of a car battery?

      No, it is one of these

    57. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      pricing plans (unlimited data)

      Networks don't tend to do "unlimited data", but having a bandwidth limit that is high enough that people won't realistically hit it through GPRS and EDGE use is pretty standard here.

      I know that carriers don't just make changes like that unless it benefits them (being the exclusive carrier of the most anticipated phone) and that's probably why the exclusive contracts.

      Supporting the advanced features of "the most anticipated phone" (and thus attracting the owners of said phone to your network) seems like motivation to me.

      As I said before, proprietary protocols are not necessarily bad

      I don't think I've said that. I've said that inventing your own protocols (if an existing protocol doesn't do what you need) isn't necessarily bad. I do believe that protocol specifications should be openly available to allow interoperability though. Restricting interoperability can only ever be bad for the consumers.

      If the money for your paycheck was stolen from your employer before it had been given to you then you'd darn well change your tune.

      No I wouldn't - if it hadn't already been given to me then it was stolen from the employer, not from me. It would still be the employer's responsibility to pay me as per my contract with them.

      not paying for a copyrighted work is still stealing. I don't care how the law might separate them

      Copyright infringement and stealing are quite clearly handled by separate laws. You may not care about how the law works but were it not for the law there would be no such thing as copyright infringement since copyright itself is a legal construct.

      Not really the same is it?

      Why not? If I hadn't taken the photo of your car I might have purchased one from you. Doesn't sound a lot different to copyright infringement to me from the "it's stealing" perspective.

      You know you are morally obligated to pay for that item because the people who own it (yes, the shitty media cartels) have not given you permission to take it for free. Because of that it is stealing.

      You are indeed obligated to pay for a copy of the content, but not doing so does not constitute stealing. The law is quite clear, copyright infringement and theft are not the same offenses and have very different penalties.

      I don't care about the law on this, it is

      What else is there to define what we are and are not allowed to do, other than the law? As I already mentioned above, were it not for the law there would be no copyright and no requirement to pay for a copy of anything. The meaning of the terms "theft" and "stealing" are defined by the law and the law states that copyright infringement isn't stealing.

      Or, conversely, you have something your shouldnt' have.

      Having something you shouldn't have does not constitute stealing. Stealing is clearly defined as taking someone's property without consent so that they are deprived of it. No matter how you spin it, if you have infringed a copyright you have not deprived someone of *their* property - the licence fee was never owned by them so cannot be deemed as having been stolen.

    58. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      dictionary.com: steal
      1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
      2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.

      you'll notice it never said someone has to be deprived of it.

      You Lose!

    59. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      dictionary.com: steal

      The OED and Webster's both disagree with you.

      OED: 1 take (something) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it. 2 give or take surreptitiously or without permission.

      Websters: 1: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice

      If you infringe a copyright you have not _taken_ anything - you have made a copy. Additionally, the legal definition is rather more clear cut: "the wrongful or willful taking of money or property belonging to someone else with intent to deprive the owner of its use or benefit either temporarily or permanently."

    60. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      You've taken a copy. You're wrong and you know it. Just give it up already. The definitions you supplied both support my argument. And as for the legal definition, we're not giving a law school dissertation here. This was a common sense argument that you've stolen something without permission. You stole a copy without permission. It's stealing. Trying to argue you way out of this one makes you look like more of a fool.

    61. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      You've taken a copy.

      No, you have made a copy. You can't have taken it since the owner is still in possession of theirs.

      You're wrong and you know it.

      The dictionary definitions and the legal definitions all disagree with you.

      This was a common sense argument that you've stolen something without permission.

      No, you have made a copy of a copyrighted work without permission. The law is quite clear on this - it is called "copyright infringement", not "theft" or "stealing", since the owner still has possession and use of their copy of the work.

      Trying to argue you way out of this one makes you look like more of a fool.

      I would think that the person disagreeing with the legal definition of the illegal act they are talking about is the one looking like a fool.

    62. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "No, you have made a copy. You can't have taken it since the owner is still in possession of theirs."

      -Wrong. If I have a piece of paper and you copy it and take the copy with you then you've (ready this carefully) TAKEN A COPY!!! Not one of those definitions that you or I supplied said anything about the owner not being in possession of their copy and you know it.

      "The dictionary definitions and the legal definitions all disagree with you."

      -The dictionary definitions that both you and I supplied supported my argument. Stealing is taking something without permission. And again this was never a legal argument, it was a common sense definition of stealing.

      "No, you have made a copy of a copyrighted work without permission. "

      -Right, and then you TOOK that copy without permission from the owners. The copy didn't walk out the door itself did it? No, you TOOK it out the door! Ta da!!! . . . STEALING.

      "I would think that the person disagreeing with the legal definition of the illegal act they are talking about is the one looking like a fool."

      -Well, you're also the person who would think that taking a copy of something without permission is not taking something, so your opinion means little to me. You're backed into a corner on this and despite all 3 dictionary defintions you're still trying not to lose. Rather than wasting time on a losing argument you'd be better served re-working your web page. It looks like your 8 year old nephew put it up. If this is the extent of your coding expertise then I'm not surprised that you can't read and understand a simple definition from a dictionary.

      You've lost, plain and simple. You know you've lost this one and it must really burn you. HAHAHAHAHAHA!

    63. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      Wrong. If I have a piece of paper and you copy it and take the copy with you then you've (ready this carefully) TAKEN A COPY!!!

      No, you have made a copy. It seems that you are misusing the verb "to take".

      Stealing is taking something without permission.

      Correct. However, no taking is involved when infringing copyrights so my point still stands.

      And again this was never a legal argument, it was a common sense definition of stealing.

      The definition of a crime is given by the law which makes it a crime. Were it not for the law it would not be a crime. Thus the only sensible definition to use when discussing laws is the legal definition.

      Right, and then you TOOK that copy without permission from the owners. The copy didn't walk out the door itself did it? No, you TOOK it out the door! Ta da!!! . . . STEALING.

      No, the owners of the thing I copied (for example, the original CD) may well have given permission even though they are not the copyright holder. In any case, the location of the copy is irrelevant.

      Well, you're also the person who would think that taking a copy of something without permission is not taking something, so your opinion means little to me.

      I see, so you're basically declaring yourself to be right because the definitions used by the rest of the world mean little to you? Feel free to stay locked up in a little room where the only world view that matters is your own.

      You're backed into a corner on this and despite all 3 dictionary defintions you're still trying not to lose.

      The dictionary definition you cited isn't exactly from a well recognised dictionary. Both the OED and Websters provide definitions that support my interpretation, as do the legal definitions.

      Rather than wasting time on a losing argument you'd be better served re-working your web page. It looks like your 8 year old nephew put it up. If this is the extent of your coding expertise then I'm not surprised that you can't read and understand a simple definition from a dictionary.

      You've lost, plain and simple. You know you've lost this one and it must really burn you. HAHAHAHAHAHA!


      I suggest you work on your debating skills. During this discussion you have continually spent almost as much time making baseless libelous accusations and childish personal attacks against me as you have presenting your case. When debating, attempting to defame your opposition does not cast you in the best light since it shows that you believe your case to not be strong enough to stand on it's own merits and feel you must try to discredit your opposition in order to distract from the weakness of your case.

      The above is a perfect example of such distraction tactics - the discussion has nothing to do with web pages so the only reason you feel the need to even mention the subject must be to distract attention from the discussion in hand?

    64. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "It seems that you are misusing the verb "to take"."

      -In what way am I misusing the verb "take"? You make a copy of someone's copyrighted media file and you TAKE the copy with you. You have TAKEN the copy. You don't have permission to TAKE the copy. Irregardless of whether the other person still has their copy you have TAKEN a copy without permission. That is stealing. I'm not talking law statutes here, so don't waste time with that argument in an attempt to save yourself. I'm talking common sense. Quit trying to fool yourself. Quit trying to avoid the reality of the situation. STEALING=Take something (in this case a copy) without permission.

      "The definition of a crime is given by the law which makes it a crime. Were it not for the law it would not be a crime. "

      -Since when did I ever say I was defining a crime? If I'm on another planet where no laws apply and I take something (even a copy of something) without permission then it is stealing and there's no way to avoid that reality. Your attempt to narrowly define this to save face is ridiculous.

      "No, the owners of the thing I copied (for example, the original CD) may well have given permission even though they are not the copyright holder."

      -No, the owner in this case is the copyright holder. The consumer does not own the media file, they have only purchased the right to view/listen to it.

      "I see, so you're basically declaring yourself to be right because the definitions used by the rest of the world mean little to you?"

      -Here are the 3 definitions:
      OED: 1 take (something) without permission or legal right and without intending to return it. 2 give or take surreptitiously or without permission.
      -----You took something (a copy of a media file) without permission. SO YOU STOLE IT!

      Websters: 1: to take the property of another wrongfully and especially as a habitual or regular practice
      -----You took the property of another (the copy of the media file) wrongfully. SO YOU STOLE IT!

      dictionary.com: steal
      1. to take (the property of another or others) without permission or right, esp. secretly or by force: A pickpocket stole his watch.
      -----You took the property of another (the copy of the media file) without permission. SO YOU STOLE IT!
      2. to appropriate (ideas, credit, words, etc.) without right or acknowledgment.
      -----You appropriated (the copy of the media file) without right or acknnowledgement. SO YOU STOLE IT!

      All 3 definitions of the word "steal" agrees with what I've been saying all along. All 3 definitions quoted agree that stealing is taking something without permission. NONE of the definitions say anything about depriving someone of something. You've made that up to try and salvage your erroneous argument.

      "The dictionary definition you cited isn't exactly from a well recognised dictionary. Both the OED and Websters provide definitions that support my interpretation, as do the legal definitions."

      -Not from a well recognized dictionary? That's a nice try to dicredit the definition I supplied, but fortunately the ones you supplied are all the same as mine. See above where ALL 3 definitions support my argument and NONE of them support yours. And again, this isn't a law school discussion, it's a common sense definition of stealing.

      "I suggest you work on your debating skills. During this discussion you have continually spent almost as much time making baseless libelous accusations"

      -Libelous? Is this another of your quasi-law discussion? Since it's libelous I challenging you to sue me. Go ahead Professor, sue me for libel. . . . I

      'm so sorry, it's just that I feel like I'm having this debate with the idiot stepchild of Forrest Gump and it's naturally frustrating to try and point out the obvious to someone. It's even more frustrating when the Child Gump tries to respond, ends up supporting my own argument with the definitions he supplied, and then says the definition supports him instead. How exactly should I debate that

    65. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      In what way am I misusing the verb "take"? You make a copy of someone's copyrighted media file and you TAKE the copy with you. You have TAKEN the copy. You don't have permission to TAKE the copy.

      The physical location of the copy is irrelevant - the law makes no reference to it. Also, you don't need permission to take _your_ copy of something somewhere. The issue at hand is that you didn't have permission to make your copy in the first place.

      I'm not talking law statutes here, so don't waste time with that argument in an attempt to save yourself. I'm talking common sense.

      So what are you talking about? You seem to be talking about theft (a legal construct) and copyright (also a legal construct). Given that everything you are discussing happens to be a legal construct, claiming that the legal definitions don't apply seems to be somewhat silly.

      If I'm on another planet where no laws apply and I take something (even a copy of something) without permission then it is stealing and there's no way to avoid that reality.

      Why? The term "stealing" refers to a legal concept. If there were different legal concepts then the concept of "stealing" may not exist.

      Your attempt to narrowly define this to save face is ridiculous.

      What purpose does your overly broad definition serve? They are different crimes with different punishments. If anything, grouping them together just serves to devalue the idea of theft since depriving the owner of their property is far worse for the owner than infringing their copyright.

      No, the owner in this case is the copyright holder. The consumer does not own the media file, they have only purchased the right to view/listen to it.

      The law disagrees with you. If you go into a shop and buy a CD then you are the legal owner the CD and the contents. What you do not own is the copyright, and this prevents you from creating copies of your property. The only way around this is to require the customer to buy a _licence_ rather than the CD itself, but this is not what currently happens. When I go into the music store and hand over some cash, I am not presented with a licence to sign, I am presented with a CD which is now my legal property.

      Libelous? Is this another of your quasi-law discussion?

      During this discussion you have, on several occasions, accused me of theft and copyright infringement. Unless you can present evidence for these accusations they constitute libel. You have also repeatedly called me a liar.

    66. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "the law makes no reference to it."

      -Are you dense? I'm not talking about law. The dictionary says to TAKE. Idiot.

      "You seem to be talking about theft (a legal construct) and copyright (also a legal construct). "

      -No, it is YOU who have talked about those, not me. I said STEALING. Idiot.

      "The term "stealing" refers to a legal concept."

      -No, it's a MORAL concept. Idiot

      "What purpose does your overly broad definition serve?"

      -I've repeatedly said it's a common sense definition of stealing. Idiot.

      "The law disagrees with you. If you go into a shop and buy a CD then you are the legal owner the CD and the contents."

      -No, you buy the CD, but you DO NOT OWN THE SONG TO DISTRIBUTE AS YOU WISH. You have a license to use it, but you do not own it. Idiot.

      "During this discussion you have, on several occasions, accused me of theft and copyright infringement. Unless you can present evidence for these accusations they constitute libel. You have also repeatedly called me a liar."

      -I never talked about copyright infringement (please quote where I accuse you of copyright infringement), nor have I accused you of theft (please quote where I call you a thief). I do think you're a liar. If you think you've got a case for libel then then sue me. Idiot.

    67. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1
      "You seem to be talking about theft (a legal construct) and copyright (also a legal construct). "

      -No, it is YOU who have talked about those, not me. I said STEALING. Idiot.


      Theft and stealing are both the same legal construct. Also, if you are not talking about copyright then there is no problem at all, since copyright is the only thing that makes it wrong to copy a work.

      -No, it's a MORAL concept. Idiot

      Morals define right and wrong - not specific concepts such as stealing. Also, how are morals defined? I'm pretty sure your morals don't match mine.

      -I've repeatedly said it's a common sense definition of stealing. Idiot.

      You have failed to answer the question I asked.

      No, you buy the CD, but you DO NOT OWN THE SONG TO DISTRIBUTE AS YOU WISH.

      Correct - you do not have the right to distribute it. You do, however, own the song (yes, this is the legal position).

      You have a license to use it, but you do not own it. Idiot.

      I'm afraid you are wrong here as well. Unless you were presented with a licence to sign at the time of purchase, you have been sold the CD and contents (but not the copyright thereof), not a licence to use it in a specific way. Again, this is the legal position.

      I never talked about copyright infringement (please quote where I accuse you of copyright infringement), nor have I accused you of theft (please quote where I call you a thief).



      In the above examples you were quite clearly talking about copyright infringement despite your incorrect use of the word "stealing". However, whether you were accusing me of being a theif of a copyright infringer, the statement was libelous and defamatory.
    68. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "Theft and stealing are both the same legal construct."

      -If I was talking about legal constructs, but I'm not. STEALING is a MORAL construct. The laws you want to delve into are based on the moral construct. If it weren't for the moral construct then we'd feel no need to create the law, now would we? But the point remains, I'm not talking law, I'm talking common sense morals. Stealing is taking something without permission from the owner.

      "Morals define right and wrong - not specific concepts such as stealing. "

      -Thou Shalt Not STEAL. It's a moral concept.

      "I'm pretty sure your morals don't match mine."

      -I'm not sure you have any so we'll never know.

      "You have failed to answer the question I asked."

      -What question is that?

      "You do, however, own the song (yes, this is the legal position)."

      -You don't own the song. You have purchased the right to listen to it. If you owned it then you'd have the right to sell the song to whoever or give it away for free. You don't have that right because you don't own it.

      "I'm afraid you are wrong here as well. Unless you were presented with a licence to sign at the time of purchase, you have been sold the CD and contents (but not the copyright thereof), not a licence to use it in a specific way. Again, this is the legal position."

      -You may own the physical media, but you don't own the song. No, it's not a legal position. You made it up.

      "In the above examples you were quite clearly talking about copyright infringement despite your incorrect use of the word "stealing". However, whether you were accusing me of being a theif of a copyright infringer, the statement was libelous and defamatory."

      -If you're taking something that you don't own and without permission from the owner then you are stealing. If I didn't say "you are infringing copyrights" then you can't say that is what I meant. Jeez, you put the words in my mouth and then accuse me based on the statement you just made up? And I'm still waiting for the libel suit? When again will that be filed?

    69. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      If it weren't for the moral construct then we'd feel no need to create the law, now would we?

      I'm sure I can point to quite a few laws which I would consider to be nothing to do with morals at all.

      -Thou Shalt Not STEAL. It's a moral concept.

      The teachings of your specific religion are of little importance to many people. I'm also pretty sure that there was no concept of copyright at the time that was originally written.

      -I'm not sure you have any so we'll never know.

      Of course I have some - just because someone's morals don't completely match with your own doesn't mean they are amoral.

      -What question is that?

      What purpose does your overly broad definition serve?

      You don't own the song. You have purchased the right to listen to it. If you owned it then you'd have the right to sell the song to whoever or give it away for free. You don't have that right because you don't own it.

      I strongly suggest you check the law. The law quite clearly states that if you go into a shop, hand over some money and receive an object in return for the cash then you own that object. What you do not own is the copyright (i.e. the right to create a copy of the object beyond that allowed by fair dealing laws).

      -You may own the physical media, but you don't own the song. No, it's not a legal position. You made it up.

      No, I'm afraid I didn't make it up - information which extend beyond your knowledge is not necessarily "made up".

      If I didn't say "you are infringing copyrights" then you can't say that is what I meant.

      Sure I can - it was quite clearly implied by the context of the statement. (And yes, defamation laws cover both express and implied untruths).

    70. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "I'm sure I can point to quite a few laws which I would consider to be nothing to do with morals at all."

      -Such as.

      "The teachings of your specific religion are of little importance to many people."

      -Who said they were? That doesn't change the fact that the concept of stealing is a moral concept and predates the law.

      "What purpose does your overly broad definition serve?"

      -It is the common sense definition of stealing as demonstrated by all 3 dictionary references supplied by both you and me. Not one of those references refers to the law. I don't need the law to understand the concept of stealing therefore it is not necessary to bring the law into the discussion.

      The law quite clearly states that if you go into a shop, hand over some money and receive an object in return for the cash then you own that object."

      -In this case you own the disk, but you DO NOT OWN THE SONG. If you own the song then start selling it to other people, publish it on your cheesy web site and publicize it so people can download it or buy it. See what happens. If you owned it then you could do that. But you don't own it.

      No, I'm afraid I didn't make it up - information which extend beyond your knowledge is not necessarily "made up".

      -True, but in this case it is made up because it's obviously not true.

      "Sure I can - it was quite clearly implied by the context of the statement. (And yes, defamation laws cover both express and implied untruths)."

      -No, I can only be accountable for what I said. Not what YOU implied that I said. Again, what is the case number of the libel suit you'll be bringing against me?

    71. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      -Such as.

      As an easy starting point, how about the laws that allow anyone in the UK to be held without charge on suspicion of terrorism and the laws that allow the US to commit acts of torture. Also the laws that allow British citizens to be extradited to the US despite breaking no British laws and there being no evidence presented against them by the US authorities.

      Who said they were?

      You were the one who made the quote - presumably you thought it was of importance.

      That doesn't change the fact that the concept of stealing is a moral concept and predates the law.

      But there is no dispute about that. The dispute is as to whether copyright infringement constitutes stealing. The law says it doesn't, and the concept of copyright does not predate the law.

      I don't need the law to understand the concept of stealing therefore it is not necessary to bring the law into the discussion.

      It seems that you do need the law to understand the concept of stealing, since the law disagrees with you as to what stealing is.

      In this case you own the disk, but you DO NOT OWN THE SONG. If you own the song then start selling it to other people, publish it on your cheesy web site and publicize it so people can download it or buy it. See what happens. If you owned it then you could do that. But you don't own it.

      That isn't the legal position on the matter. Legally you own the disc and the song but not the copyright. Legally you can start selling it to other people so long as you are selling your authorised copy rather than a copy which you personally have made. If it were the case that you only own a licence to use the material then you would legally be allowed to acquire a copy to replace a damaged CD since your licence would still be valid. This, however, is illegal, as per copyright law.

      -True, but in this case it is made up because it's obviously not true.

      Except it is true.

      No, I can only be accountable for what I said.

      Again, the law disagrees with you. Defamation laws cover both express and implied statements. The context of your statements clearly made an implication.

    72. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "As an easy starting point, how about the laws that allow anyone in the UK to be held without charge on suspicion of terrorism and the laws that allow the US to commit acts of torture. Also the laws that allow British citizens to be extradited to the US despite breaking no British laws and there being no evidence presented against them by the US authorities."

      -Yes of course. And these laws (whether you agree with them or not) aren't influenced by the moral idea of not allowing people to harm others, or commit murder? Moral base concept influences the creating of laws.

      "You were the one who made the quote "

      -I quoted something from the Bible which was an example of a moral concept that addressed stealing that was not a law. I did NOT say that my religion mattered to anyone else. But YOUR response tried to imply that I said that. Why do you persist in making stuff up? I think you're claims of libel have to be based on the fact that I made a false statement, but this clearly demonstrates you lie because I never said my religion mattered to anyone else.

      "But there is no dispute about that. The dispute is as to whether copyright infringement constitutes stealing. The law says it doesn't, and the concept of copyright does not predate the law."

      Then why have you spent the last 3 days disputing it? As I've said several times I've never been talking about the law. When you disputed that copyright infringement was not stealing you were disputing an argument that I never made. It's called a straw man argument. I simply said stealing is taking something you don't own without permission. Then you started your ridiculous diatribe about the law. You want to debate law then do it yourself. I was, and always have been, talking about stealing. Again, you're attempting to narrow the argument to an area I'm not talking about in attempt to save face.

      "Legally you own the disc and the song"

      -Just the disk not the song. If you owned the song you could do whatever you want with it.

      "Again, the law disagrees with you. Defamation laws cover both express and implied statements. The context of your statements clearly made an implication."

      -As for clearly making an implication, no, it did not. If you choose to misrepresent what I say then I can't be held responsible for YOUR misrepresentation. You've consistently misrepresented what I've said in attempts to use a straw man argument. That's called lying. That's why I can truthfully call you a liar. If you think you've got a case then sue me for libel.

    73. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1
      And these laws (whether you agree with them or not) aren't influenced by the moral idea of not allowing people to harm others

      And yet the laws themselves allow people (the authorities) to harm others. However, you make one of my other points for me - not everyone's morals are the same.

      How about the DMCA and EUCD, which make it illegal for someone to bypass the region coding on Bluray discs and certain ink cartridges. Are you telling me it's immoral to import movies and inks from other countries?

      Then why have you spent the last 3 days disputing it?

      I haven't - I have spent the last 3 days disputing the your idea that copyright infringement is stealing.

      When you disputed that copyright infringement was not stealing you were disputing an argument that I never made. It's called a straw man argument. I simply said stealing is taking something you don't own without permission.

      "Copyright infringement IS stealing."

      Looks like you did make that statement after all.

      -Just the disk not the song. If you owned the song you could do whatever you want with it.

      I'm sorry, the law disagrees with you. You own the song but the law places a restriction on what you are allowed to do with it because you don't own the copyright.

      Please bear in mind that many physical every day objects are also copyrighted or patented - even though you are the owner you are not allowed to reproduce them without a licence. A CD is no different.

      As for clearly making an implication, no, it did not.

      How qould you interpret this?

      Copyright infringement IS stealing. You can wrap it any way you want, but you know it is stealing because you're not paying for the content. ... No, if you had the rights you wouldn't be splitting hairs or making fictional arguments. You're stealing and you're mad at Apple because they haven't made that easy for you.

      (Emphasis mine)

      You have made the declaration that copyright infringement is stealing, and then have accused me of stealing. By your own definition, you appear to have accused me of either copyright infringement or stealing (or both).
    74. Re:I hate bosses like that by intheshelter · · Score: 1

      "I haven't - I have spent the last 3 days disputing the your idea that copyright infringement is stealing."

      -I never said copyright infringment is stealing from a legal perspective. It's stealing from a moral perspective. How the law wraps that moral concept doesn't interest me. That's an argument YOU made and argued. I said taking something that you don't own without permission is stealing. Argue against yourself about copyright infringement since you're the one who brought it up.

      "Looks like you did make that statement after all."

      -If you take something that doesn't belong to you without permission it is stealing. Please consult a dictionary.

      "I'm sorry, the law disagrees with you. You own the song but the law places a restriction on what you are allowed to do with it because you don't own the copyright."

      -You don't own the song or you could do whatever you want with it.

      "You have made the declaration that copyright infringement is stealing, and then have accused me of stealing. By your own definition, you appear to have accused me of either copyright infringement or stealing (or both)."

      -It is stealing. If you infringed on a copyright then you stole something.

    75. Re:I hate bosses like that by FireFury03 · · Score: 1

      I never said copyright infringment is stealing from a legal perspective. It's stealing from a moral perspective.

      It certainly isn't the same as stealing from _my_ moral perspective. As far as I'm concerned, stealing is far worse an act than copyright infringement since when you steal you are preventing someone from using their property. For example, if you steal a car you are preventing someone from using it, and that is inconvenient at the very least. On the other hand if you infringe a copyright it simply means that the copyright owner won't get some money that they _may_ have got if you didn't infringe - i.e. you haven't prevented them from using something they owned.

      -If you take something that doesn't belong to you without permission it is stealing. Please consult a dictionary.

      Look, you said "Copyright infringement IS stealing.". I then disputed that and after some time you said "When you disputed that copyright infringement was not stealing you were disputing an argument that I never made". Clearly you _did_ make the argument, as referenced by the above comment. How about staying consistent rather than denying you ever made an argument which you clearly did make.

      -You don't own the song or you could do whatever you want with it.

      I'm sorry, the law disagrees with you. You own the song but the law places a restriction on what you are allowed to do with it because you don't own the copyright.

      Please bear in mind that many physical every day objects are also copyrighted or patented - even though you are the owner you are not allowed to reproduce them without a licence. A CD is no different.

      -It is stealing. If you infringed on a copyright then you stole something.

      So you are now admitting that you accused me of copyright infringement?

  15. 06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by drago177 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Graphs showing iphone is indeed 'blowing up' competition

    http://blogs.computerworld.com/canalys_figures_in_iphone_clear_winner_in_north_america/

    "
            * Palm is dead everywhere but in the North America, where it is falling sharply.
            * Symbian is huge everywhere besides North America, but obviously has the most to lose with the iPhone being released around the world next year. Don't expect Symbian to post these numbers on their website as they have in the past.
            * Microsoft's mobile strategy is failing miserably. They don't crack 10% anywhere but in North America where they are behind RIM and iPhone and dropping.
            * Blackberry, while strong in North America, has a much smaller global market share.
            * Linux is big in China and Japan but insignificant elsewhere.
            * The iPhone has grabbed 27% of the North American smartphone market. This is obviously on the sharp upturn.
            * Apple is poised to be the number one US Smartphone vendor next year if trends keep up."

    1. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by SpectreBlofeld · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Which is all fine and good, but the iPhone is NOT A SMARTPHONE. At ALL.

      It has NONE of the hallmarks of a traditional smartphone.

      "Most devices considered smartphones today use an identifiable operating system, often with the ability to add applications (e.g. for enhanced data processing, connectivity or entertainment) - in contrast to regular phones which only support sandboxed applications[citation needed]. These smartphone applications may be developed by the manufacturer of the device, by the network operator or by any other third-party software developer[citation needed]."

        Yes, I left the 'citation needed' remarks, in respect of Wikipedia's information model.

        The iPhone is a really fancy phone, perhaps a decent pocket-sized multimedia device, but smartphone/PDA it ain't - without hacking it, of course, until Apple decides to 'update' it for you.

        Therefore it's futile to compare it to Blackberry/Windows Mobile/Palm devices.

    2. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So it runs an OS, has more sophisticated features than you might expect in a typical phone, and 3rd party applications are available. Which part of your definition of SmartPhone does it not meet?

    3. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by CaptainZapp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      * Symbian is huge everywhere besides North America, but obviously has the most to lose with the iPhone being released around the world next year. Don't expect Symbian to post these numbers on their website as they have in the past.

      The reception of the IPhone in the European key markets (UK, Germany, France) has been lukewarm at best. I'm not saying that Apple may not be a threat to Symbian in Europe in the future, but for the time being they're far from it.

      * Apple is poised to be the number one US Smartphone vendor next year if trends keep up.

      I'd wager that this is due to a fact of the abyssimal state of the US handset market. It isn't helped by the carriers who bolt down and cripple the handsets to borderline useless.

      Apple will have a much more difficult time in Europe (let alone Japan) with the iPhone for a variety of reasons.

      --
      ich bin der musikant

      mit taschenrechner in der hand

      kraftwerk

    4. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      All phones run an OS, it doesn't have more sophisticated features than most phones (the webbrowser is more advanced, sure, but the majority of other tools are actually inferior to what you'd find in a typical Motorola or Nokia. Even dialing a fucking phone number is less advanced - the majority of phones have voice dialing today, but not the iPhone), and it doesn't run third party applications unless either hacked or designed to be simple enough to run in a web browser (and with no local storage) - even most Motorolas and Nokias at least have Java.

      It is not in any sense of the term a "smartphone". It's actually a "simplephone", a phone designed to appeal to people because of its simplicity of use.

    5. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by jsebrech · · Score: 1

      So it runs an OS, has more sophisticated features than you might expect in a typical phone, and 3rd party applications are available. Which part of your definition of SmartPhone does it not meet?

      Every phone runs an OS, so that by itself does not make a device a smartphone.

      It has some sophisticated features, but it's lacking some basic features, like 3g, mms, non-purchased ringtones, java mobile, video recording, ... All in all it's "sophisticatedness" is a mixed bag.

      And finally, 3rd party applications are NOT available. The only way to get 3rd party apps onto the iphone is if they are web apps or if you hack your phone (and if you look at the 3rd party web apps, they're a joke in comparison to the 3rd party apps for symbian or windows mobile).

      I've always qualified smartphones as two features: internet aware, and open to 3rd party software. The iphone fails on the second requirement.

    6. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by NatasRevol · · Score: 1

      "I've always qualified smartphones as two features: internet aware, and open to 3rd party software. The iphone fails on the second requirement."

      So this month it's not, and next month it is??

      Do web apps count as 3rd party software? Before you answer that, look at flytunes. And realize it's a webapp.

      http://www.flytunes.fm/

      --
      There are two types of people in the world: Those who crave closure
    7. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      I can buy that, although it does have the identifiable OS (your cheap phones don't advertise that they run TRON or some other OS, but the iPhone is sold as running OS X.)

      However, that means that the instant the SDK comes out, every iPhone goes from being a regular phone to a smartphone as soon as it's updated. ;)

    8. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by drago177 · · Score: 1

      Apparently this post angered a lot of people, with all the troll mods, implying I intentionally rattled off iphone fanboy stuff to piss people off. Maybe thats what I get for not being clear (btw, drinking and /.'ing dont mix well). But truth is, I'm opposite of fanboy. I bought an old HTC with windows mobile just before iphone came out because the cost ratio. I didn't think iphone was worth triple the price. I just read the parent and was curious about the current market share, found a website that showed it (clearly and accurately I thought), so I posted it to ./ for all to be informed.

      I also think that trends will flatten out. MS will always have a slight edge in the corporate niche b/c they make it hard to impossible to sync your non-MS phone with Outlook, and competition like Android will make all the players innovate more (I have my fingers crossed that Google apps keep delving into corporate so that we can use their calendar instead of Outlook). I saw other posts that say the iphone reception in Europe was luke warm, I'd appreciate links or a graph to satisfy curiosity.

      Allright, thats my defense, hope I dont piss more ppl off when they disagree, or see spelling errors, or notice I wrote the year wrong (dam, how drunk was I?).

    9. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by Fahrenheit+450 · · Score: 1

      Not that it matters much in the smartphone-or-not argument, but the iPhone does support non-purchased ringtones (with iTunes 7.5 and iPhone 1.1.2).

      Take a sound file less than 40 seconds in length, encode as an m4a file, rename the extension to m4r, add to iTunes and sync the phone. Poof, Custom ringtone.

      --
      -30-
    10. Re:06-12-17 status of mobile os market share by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Whilst I really like most of Apple's current product line it does look to me like their designers are very much focused on the US market. The rest of the world seems to be, currently, an after thought to Apples's designers.

      I'm put off AppleTV due to it's lack of SCART which is obviously not important for the US market but is a big deal in Europe. It's the same with the UMTS on the iPhone. It's not important for the US, so it was OK to leave it out there even though it's a big in Europe.

      Whether these things effect sales or not will be interesting to see. I mean, I love my Mac even though (maybe because) it feels like an American product they just happen to sell in the UK rather than being fully localised E.g. US is at the top of every option list. (It would be funny to see Nokia prioritise Finland at the top of every option list on one of their phones).

  16. It really is the CEO by heroine · · Score: 1, Insightful

    The article makes it sound like it really is the CEO who drives everything and everything else is automatic. It's pretty accurate to how Silicon Valley works. The CEO drives it and everything else is mostly automatic.

    Consider that Jobless made a few hundred million dollars and adoration from legions of fans while the engineers probably got a few tens of thous in bonuses and increased rent on their dumpy Sunnyvale apartments.

    1. Re:It really is the CEO by arcite · · Score: 4, Insightful

      But its true. Consider...if the iphone had tanked, there is a good chance that not only Jobs would be out of a Job but that Apple could be out of luck as well. The CEO can take all the glory but they also take all the blame.

    2. Re:It really is the CEO by Kelbear · · Score: 1


      Blame sounds like a bad thing until you realize it comes with a multi-million dollar severance package.

    3. Re:It really is the CEO by boyfaceddog · · Score: 1

      Yes, you are so right. Many times I have heard stories of CEOs being exiled from the businesses they ran, thrown out into the cold, cruel world with only twenty or thirty million dollars in cash and stock options, and wept.

      WAH!

      --
      Here will be an old abusing of God's patience and the king's English.
  17. News? by MikeRR · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Is this news?

    Some boss has a tantrum in the past when a product is behind schedule.

    Might have been news if it was reported AT THE TIME, before the iphone was released,
    but now?

    Nope..

    1. Re:News? by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      It provides an interesting insight to how Apple does things differently behind closed doors. It also might provide some insight to why their products are so damned good. Profitability and devices that work really well shouldn't be mutually exclusive, like they tend to be in 95% of the tech market.

  18. From what I read in the summary... by AndGodSed · · Score: 1

    they were at least a little freaked. I get the idea that there were some hearts in their throats, or at least they realized they needed to do some damage control.

    I wasn't there though, so I am speculating on second hand info, and could be wrong...

  19. Purple, the ipod phone by perko · · Score: 1
    from tfa:

    Internally, the project was known as P2, short for Purple 2 (the abandoned iPod phone was called Purple 1).
    That's the first I've heard of a prior effort at an iPhone. No real help from Google, as all results link to the Wired article. Any clues?
    1. Re:Purple, the ipod phone by mgabrys_sf · · Score: 1

      I'm pretty sure that P1 was the Rockr which was a failed attempt no matter how you slice it. Even the presentation featured SJ nearly clenching teeth on how sucky the product was at the Expo.

    2. Re:Purple, the ipod phone by perko · · Score: 1

      Geez, I'd hate to work on a project that was even nominally the successor to the ROKR.

  20. repeating lies by nguy · · Score: 3, Informative

    and makes the point that traditional mobile phone handset businesses has been stifled and denied the opportunity to innovate by network operators.

    In fact, several major US carriers (AT&T, Cingular, T-Mobile, probably others) have had GSM systems for years. They work with third party GSM phones, including the fully programmable Palm, Windows Mobile, and Nokia devices. Furthermore, you can get unlimited data for fairly reasonable monthly fees in the US.

    The notion that Apple is doing anything to rescue us from carries is laughable. Apple's iPhone is a big step backwards: it's carrier locked, it's tied to Apple's desktop application (the only way to get updates), and it's non-programmable (at least for now).

    The iPhone is a giant step backwards for smartphones and innovation.

    If you want an innovative phone that doesn't try to shackle you, get a Symbian, Palm, or Windows Mobile phone.

    1. Re:repeating lies by falcon5768 · · Score: 2, Informative
      I dont know where you have been hiding, but both Palm and Windows smartphones are JUST as bad. They might not be carrier exclusives (and the reason behind Apples exclusive deal with AT&T has been repeated time and again to be more about service than any want to lock in) but both are ALSO tied to their own exclusive programs with 3rd party solutions buggy at best, and both at first where also non-programmable (yes they where and anyone who says otherwise is a liar), and only opened up a year or two later.

      And this doesnt address the fact that all three are buggy as hell STILL. Mobile 5 was so bad people backgraded their phones to 4.

      It has not even been a year for Apples product and they have already promised to open up their programing before the year mark. So your argument is basically null and void.

      --

      "Slashdot, where telling the truth is overrated but lying is insightful."

    2. Re:repeating lies by Lumpy · · Score: 1

      Furthermore, you can get unlimited data for fairly reasonable monthly fees in the US.

      Reasonable? are you on drugs? Who in their right mind can call the Slow ISDN speeds we get at $49.99 a month reasonable? That kind of data rate is reasonable at $19.95 a month.

      Also unlimited? huh? NONE of them give you unlimited, I have hit the data cap several times as wel as almost everyone else I know. and no I'm not running bittorrents or downloading video... I'm doing standard business use with a small amount of recreational (180X120 webcam feed to a server for rebroadcast twice a year for 1 day each)

      If you know of a company giving reasonable rates for unlimited use please tell us, AS AT&T, Tmobile, and Verizon are not doing that.

      --
      Do not look at laser with remaining good eye.
    3. Re:repeating lies by bhtooefr · · Score: 1

      Sprint?

      1xRTT phones get it at $7.50/mo, EVDO phones get it at $15/mo.

    4. Re:repeating lies by His+Shadow · · Score: 1
      The iPhone is a giant step backwards for smartphones and innovation.
      If you want an innovative phone that doesn't try to shackle you, get a Symbian, Palm, or Windows Mobile phone.


      Now THAT'S a shill, by George! Although I hope to Zeus it's sarcasm.

      --

      Fiat Homos et Pereat Theos

    5. Re:repeating lies by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      The iPhone is a giant step backwards for smartphones and innovation.
      Why was this modded "informative" instead of "funny"?

      BTW, did you even read the article? The one that talks in length about how the iPhone will pretty much break the existing stranglehold the carriers hold over phones? That alone is the most innovative "feature" any cell phone has come up with thus far. I'm just curious to what downsides are so bad that they cancel out the real innovations such as the slick touch screen and the visual-voice mail.

    6. Re:repeating lies by puto · · Score: 1

      I pay 20 bucks for my 3g data plan, and my phone regular does a megabit plus to my laptop. No ISDN speeds here.

      --
      The Revolution Will Not Be Televised
    7. Re:repeating lies by nguy · · Score: 1

      Reasonable? are you on drugs? Who in their right mind can call the Slow ISDN speeds we get at $49.99 a month reasonable? That kind of data rate is reasonable at $19.95 a month.

      US wireless data rates are maybe 30-50% higher than what they should be, but that's not the issue here. Here, we're comparing iPhone to other smartphones and smartphone plans. For about the same amount of money that buys you EDGE speed access with an iPhone (with its limited set of applications), you can get unrestricted, unlimited 3G access with another phone and even use it as a laptop modem. That's what's relevant to this discussion.

      Yes, if you want to replace your DSL line with 3G and run web servers over it, you are SOL. But that's not what those plans are there for, even in countries where they are priced better.

    8. Re:repeating lies by nguy · · Score: 1

      The one that talks in length about how the iPhone will pretty much break the existing stranglehold the carriers hold over phones

      Yes. The article is bullshit. GSM carriers already don't have a stranglehold over phones. They choose to sell lousy phones, but you can use whatever phone you like. The Nokia N95, for example, seems to be quite popular and works like a charm even though no carrier sells it.

      The iPhone is a step backwards because it is actually carrier locked, isn't programmable, and doesn't even let you change your SIM card.

      I'm just curious to what downsides are so bad that they cancel out the real innovations such as the slick touch screen and the visual-voice mail.

      There are plenty of touch screen phones, and visual voice mail isn't an innovation either. And nice and intuitive as the iPhone UI is, it's actually not that great for serious users.

      The iPhone is actually a well-designed fashion phone with a good UI. And it's true that US carriers are obnoxious, moderately overpriced, and sell dumbed-down phones. But to claim that the iPhone is doing anything to change that is ridiculous. The iPhone is more proprietary and more locked down than almost any other AT&T phone.

    9. Re:repeating lies by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      I agree with the notion that the article is a bit hypocritical, pointing out that the iPhone is breaking the mold, even though the iPhone only works on AT&T (thus continuing to follow the mold). But the REASON it is only on AT&T is because the other carriers didn't want to risk working with Apple. Now they are all second guessing themselves.

    10. Re:repeating lies by nguy · · Score: 1

      But the REASON it is only on AT&T is because the other carriers didn't want to risk working with Apple. Now they are all second guessing themselves.

      No, that's not the reason. The iPhone is a GSM phone; Apple didn't have to tie it to a carrier at all, they could have sold it unlocked. Furthermore, multiple carriers wanted to have the iPhone in several markets, but Apple only gave it to one carrier. The reason the iPhone is on one carrier only and carrier-locked is because Apple wanted it that way.

    11. Re:repeating lies by stewbacca · · Score: 1
      Perhaps I am mistaken, but there are certain feature sets unique to the iPhone that required a carrier to change their services to work with the iPhone(I believe the visual-voice mail is the example being thrown around). This is the heart of the issue. Apple got a carrier to bend to Apple's needs, instead of the carrier forcing Apple to drop feature sets that wouldn't work on existing networks.

      I am willing to bet that at the end of the exclusive arrangement with AT&T, all the major providers will be lining up to provide for the iPhone and Apple will take any and all that get in line. In the meantime, Apple not only has provided a pretty darned good phone, they have tweaked the industry a bit (like the article states) and managed to create a pretty decent money making scheme in the process. Can you really blame them?

    12. Re:repeating lies by nguy · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I am mistaken, but there are certain feature sets unique to the iPhone that required a carrier to change their services to work with the iPhone(I believe the visual-voice mail is the example being thrown around). This is the heart of the issue.

      I don't see the issue. Several carriers were willing to do this, but Apple restricted the iPhone to a single carrier. Visual voice mail is not necessary for the phone to function correctly, so it would have been fine to offer the phone as an unlocked phone, in addition to working with any carrier who wanted to offer visual voice mail.

      Furthermore, visual voice mail is not unique to the iPhone, and the iPhone wasn't even the first to offer it. I have a 3G phone and just get visual voice mail through a web-based service; no need for the carrier to do anything. Furthermore, even Apple-style visual voice mail doesn't need to be provided through the carrier, it can be provided through a third party. If the iPhone requires anything special to be done for visual voice mail, it's yet another way in which the iPhone is taking us backwards.

      In the meantime, Apple not only has provided a pretty darned good phone, they have tweaked the industry a bit (like the article states) and managed to create a pretty decent money making scheme in the process. Can you really blame them?

      I blame them for claiming that they are "forcing open" the wireless industry when, in fact, they are re-establishing bad habits like carrier-locked phones, non-standard SIM cards, proprietary protocols, and programming restrictions.

    13. Re:repeating lies by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Several carriers were willing to do this, but Apple restricted the iPhone to a single carrier.
      From everything I've read (sorry, no time for references, but not hard to find) Sprint, NexTel et. al. all rejected Apple's pitch, because they didn't want to take on the risk of a new player to the market. Most articles actually focus on this, and how those companies that rejected Apple are now second-guessing that decision, given the rapid success of the device.

      I agree that Apple isn't doing anything to change the fact we still can't use any phone we want on any network, but that's not the claim of the article. Apple got ONE carrier to bow down to the technical needs of Apple's phone. I'm not smart enough to understand the technology, but your claim that visual voice mail isn't new, nor does it require special network stuff just doesn't jive with the last six months of media coverage.

  21. If only other phone makers cared so much by gilesjuk · · Score: 1

    I can't imagine anyone at Sony Ericsson getting so worked up about a smartphone. Their P990i and new products exhibit poor design and are full of bugs. Design by commitee comes to mind. Their solution to customers having problems with their current phone is to tell them to buy the next one where the bugs are fixed.

    1. Re:If only other phone makers cared so much by Macrat · · Score: 1

      I have to agree. I was a happy owner of the P800 and the P910. The P990 is a complete disappointment. Non-intuitive interfaces and overly complex for go real benefit.

  22. Probably not the only error by LKM · · Score: 1

    Frankly, 90% of the vaguely-sourced article strikes me complete and utter made-up bullcrap. It contains all the typical probably baseless preconceptions about Jobs and Apple that these articles and books usually contain. I doubt anyone actually closely involved with the project contributed anything to the article.

  23. Suppose Sony-made batteries explode iPhones by freedom_india · · Score: 1

    Why? Is it powered by a Sony manufactured battery?
    If sony does make batteries for iPhone, and if those batteries explode iPhones, then legally Apple's lawyers have hit the jackpot with a huge lawsuit claiming:
    1. Sony competes with Apple on mobile phones.
    2. Sony makes batteries for Apple phones.
    3. Sony-made batteries explode when used in Apple phones.

    Even IF it is all smoke and no fire, am sure Sony lawyers would be very hard-pressed to force the judge to not see a conspiracy.
    Plus suddenly a sony intern deletes a few innocent emails AFTER the trial starts....

    Add to the mix: some a$$ of a rich wallstreet user dies from an exploding iPhone.
    Am sure Sony executives would find it very, very difficult to beat those manslaughter charges...

    I LOVE IT When corporates clash!

    --
    "Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
  24. /. or Ars Technica? by Harold+Halloway · · Score: 1

    Increasingly I load up /. and wonder if I accidentally loaded the Ars Technica bookmark instead. If I want Jacqui Chenq-esque fluff articles, picking over every tedious detail of Apple and it's soap-opera-like existence with breathless wonderment then I'll go to Ars. But I don't want that. Please don't let /. become another victim of the Apple Fanboi virus.

  25. So? by LKM · · Score: 1

    Which is all fine and good, but the iPhone is NOT A SMARTPHONE. At ALL.

    Does it matter? What do people use their smart phones for? Personally, I mainly used my Palms and P**s for their calendars. The iPhone does that. It also has a working browser and an acceptable mailer, so it actually does more for me than the smartphones I've owned. And in february, there'll be an SDK, too.

    Is the iPhone a smart phone? Depends ony our definition. Will it replace people's current smart phones? Hell yeah.

  26. iPhone is just another word for vendor lock-in by davide+marney · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Jobs and his crew have given us a beautiful device but an ugly product. It is completely locked into its two vendors, and is not a good value.

    I hate vendor lock-in. I hate being told how I can use something I bought. It's mine. I paid for it. I've earned the right to control it.

    If a vendor wants my business, he needs to EARN it.

    --
    "We receive as friendly that which agrees with, we resist with dislike that which opposes us" - Faraday
    1. Re:iPhone is just another word for vendor lock-in by OglinTatas · · Score: 1

      Totally. I can say with no fear of hyperbole that I have just about turned blue holding my breath waiting for Openmoko to release a consumer product. I am no developer, so the Neo 1973 (and the Trolltech greenphone before that) doesn't quite cut it for me. I nearly peed my pants when I saw news articles announcing the Freerunner. example

      I still don't see it marketed anywhere though.

    2. Re:iPhone is just another word for vendor lock-in by repetty · · Score: 1

      > Jobs and his crew have given us a beautiful device but an ugly product.
      > It is completely locked into its two vendors, and is not a good value.

      Two opinions, of course, and certainly you are absolutely entitled to them both, but you come off appearing merely contrarian.

      I do agree with you about hating vendor lock-in but I'm not going to get religious about it. Vendor lock-in doesn't automatically make a product a bad value any more than being a Republican makes a person automatically wrong (it just seems that way).

      Also, and maybe most tellingly, A LOT of people have laid down good money and disagree with your cost-free pontificating.

      --Richard

    3. Re:iPhone is just another word for vendor lock-in by A+Jew · · Score: 1

      being a Republican makes a person automatically wrong (it just seems that way).

      you just couldn't resist spewing hateful liberal BS, could you? as they say (translation from Hebrew): a guardian for wisdom is silence. but apparently you are too "smart" for that. aside from that you are trolling and flaming, which I understand is bad manners.
  27. THAT's Why Apple Rocks! by curmudgeon99 · · Score: 0

    See? That's why Apple is killing the competition. At the top, you have this lefthanded leader Steve Jobs who is motivating his peopel to make the best. You think those cool Apple products come out of thin air? No! They're cultivated, goaded and forced into existence. I bet Bill Gates never motivated his people like this.

    1. Re:THAT's Why Apple Rocks! by kellyb9 · · Score: 1

      Yeah Bill Gates has never come out with a successful product... not once.... ever.

    2. Re:THAT's Why Apple Rocks! by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      Bill Gates has never come out with a GOOD product... not once.... ever, except Mac version of Excel and Word, circa 1993, then again about 1997.
      There, fixed that for you.
  28. Finally! They think about the terrists... by freaker_TuC · · Score: 1

    Finally, they sell something for those terrists, you know, they have shopping sprees too! ;)
    specs: will only explode in a radius of 20 miles; special edition will explode in a radius of 30 miles!

    --
    --- I am known for the ones who want to find me on the net. Is that a privacy risk or a privilege? One might wonder..
  29. Another Friday... by pandrijeczko · · Score: 2, Funny
    ...another chance for Apple users to perform virtual fellatio on Steve Jobs.

    Move along. Nothing to see here. Unless you're in the elitist minority.

    --
    Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
  30. Jobs isn't a boss by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    He's a cult leader. He rules by sheer force of personality not by any great people skills.

  31. The article is good, it just fails to mention by Britz · · Score: 3, Informative

    one tiny little bit.

    THE COMPETITION

    When the article talks about all the things they needed to work out how the phone connects to networks and how the brain gets microwaved (or not) it fails to mention, that this is only news to Apple, not all the other mobile phone manufacturers of the world. Especially when the article talks about the phone being light years ahead it completely resolves into pure Apple fanboy talk.

    Those are just three examples of phones that you could compare to the Iphone:
    http://www.lge.com/products/model/detail/ke850.jhtml
    http://www.htc.com/product/03-product_htctouch.htm
    http://uk.samsungmobile.com/mobile/SGH-F700

    I have one just like the last Samsung model. Mine also has WLan and, like the Samsung, it has a full sized keyboard. Nokia is not even on that list. All of the phone makers have a wide variaty of phones to fit every customers preferred style. Candy bar being the best liked. Many have important features that the Iphone is lacking. Like UMTS support to get decent speed for surfing whe web. Opera build a decent web browser complete with a proxy that "refits" webpages so they look good on a small screen years ago. It is written in Java and works on many phones.

    The mobile phone market has enough players that the competition actually works (not like the OS market for PCs). Of those three phones up the all of them use a different OS for example. The HTC model even uses Microsoft Mobile, an OS that sucks less and less with each version, because they face a steep competition by Symbian. And Google just joined.

    There are just two things that were new with the IPhone. First was the touchscreen that you can operate on with more than one finger. A feature that is pretty cool and was therefore swiftly copied by everyone else.

    The second thing is the Apple marketing. The only thing right now that makes Apple stand out. That and their tie in with Itunes. Itunes has such a large market share, it almost became a monopoly. And now they try to extend that power to other products and markets. Sounds familiar? Another reason why the IPod-ITunes connection works so good.

    And that brings us to the last little thing which the article good completely right. Back in 2002 (I would say even earlier, but the article says that was when Jobs woke up to that fact) it became clear that phones will aquire more and more memory and computing power, just like the regular PC. Some people prefer to have funtions seperate on different devices. They like their music player, phone and PDA, or just one of them. Other people like to have everything in one device. And Jobs/Apple wanted to sell Ipods to those people as well. So the Ipod needed to become a phone and a PDA.

    And it did. Ipod touch is a PDA and the Iphone is a smartphone.

    1. Re:The article is good, it just fails to mention by sonofabeach · · Score: 1

      No question about it, the iPhone and iPod Touch interface are what set them apart from the competition.

      However, I don't think the iPod Touch is a very good PDA at all, actually. I bought one hoping it would replace my three year old Palm Tungsten E2 which I use for basic PDA functions such as calendaring and contact management. The iPod Touch is missing so many small features that make it annoying enough to keep my Palm updated.

      The calendar interface is terrible and I still haven't gotten used to it. There are no categories for different calendars - why not provide the same support that iCal does and allow different calendars with different colors? The display is also pretty lousy - I don't want to flick through my events, I want to be able to see them day-by-day or week-by-week.

      There's also no search function. What happened to something like spotlight? Why does Palm do this so much better? You can sort the Address Book but can't search it? If you don't remember someone's last name you can forget finding them - and good luck searching for a contact by company if you have it sorted by last name.

      No cut and paste is a bummer, too. When typing it also doesn't allow you to scroll up and down - if you ever fill up a text box like in an email in Safari, you have no way of getting back to the beginning of it.

      I'm hoping there will be some exciting 3rd Party apps in the near future, but for the time-being I'm still keeping my Palm updated to view multiple calendars. For playing media, however, the iPod is fantastic of course! I just don't understand why the crippled the PDA aspects of it.

      --
      Lose 20 pounds, instantly! Just send £20 to... - Bizarro
    2. Re:The article is good, it just fails to mention by gatekeep · · Score: 1

      I have one just like the last Samsung model. Mine also has WLan and, like the Samsung, it has a full sized keyboard.

      A full-sized keyboard? Really? Doesn't that make it hard to put in your pocket?

    3. Re:The article is good, it just fails to mention by multimed · · Score: 1

      And how many of those models existed before the iPhone? Whether you like Apple & their products or not, the fact of the matter is the world is a better place with them in it. You can argue about whether they are truly innovative or just put things together & popularize it, but the buzz they generate and the money they make drives the competition to step up their game.

      --
      Vote Quimby.
  32. Just for laughs by present_arms · · Score: 1

    "Steve Jobs had tasked about 200 of Apple's top engineers with creating the iPhone. Yet here, in Apple's boardroom, it was clear that the prototype was still a disaster. It wasn't just buggy, it flat-out didn't work. The phone dropped calls constantly, the battery stopped charging before it was full, data and applications routinely became corrupted and unusable. The list of problems seemed endless" Then they un-installed windows ce

    --
    http://chimpbox.us
  33. NSFW by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    dude, if that sybian link goes where i think it goes, you should have tagged it NSFW, the slightly less sexually frustrated among us might not know what they are clicking towards.

  34. *Your* MP3 player is crippled. by LKM · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Wait, wait, the iPhone is a phone with the computing power close to my current PC (an old VIA, I can bet the iPhone has a better GPU than my on-board one). Almost its full size is one big screen. Doesn't all this imply that it should be able to run videos easily?

    Yes. And?

    If I would want a phone with less features, I would bloody not spend 900 euros on it

    That's you. I moved from a new P990i to an iPhone. It has a lot less features, but I actually use the features it has, and I'm a lot happier with it.

    For example, if I want an MP3 player, I want to be able to mount it like a flash drive and copy music to and from it.

    Why?

    Okay, I get copying from. That's useful. Fortunately, the iPod actually does allow for this. All your music is stored in an invisible directory which can easily be accessed.

    I just don't get the "copy to" thing, though. I hate those dumb players which force you to use the OS to put music on them when I actually use software to manage my MP3s, and then take a few minutes after I turn them on to read all the ID3 tags into a database, or even worse, just display the music in the hierarchy it is on the device. Not to mention that it leads to all kinds of cumbersome idiocies if I add new music to my library and then want to add only the new music to my player. Also, I use smart playlists extensively. For example, my music collection does not fix on my iPhone, so I use a smart playlists which puts a bunch of random new songs on the iPhone each time I connect it to the Mac, as well as the most recent episode of my favourite podcasts, and new episodes of TV shows I like. Why in the world would I ever trade this to an MP3 player which makes me do all of that by hand?

    I really have no clue why anyone could possibly think that less features could possibly be better, especially after all the other things you've said.

    You want crippled? Your crappy MP3 player which forces you to put music on it using the Windows Explorer, that's crippled.

    I'm afraid I don't get the point of the rest of your rambling about subnotebooks and Apple.

    1. Re:*Your* MP3 player is crippled. by syousef · · Score: 1

      You want crippled? Your crappy MP3 player which forces you to put music on it using the Windows Explorer, that's crippled.

      Only a complete fool would argue that a crypticly named set of directories and files that you have to use software to fix beats a mountable drive with well named MP3s.

      By the way I own an iPod and while it does most things well crippling the ability to copy back off the thing (done in software with a minor iTunes update) was awful. It makes syncing playlists harder. Oh and my click wheel never quite worked right. I'd have had to go without my iPod for a couple of months to get it fixed thanks to a no returns policy so I live with it but as far as I'm concerned Apple are awful and treat their customers like shite.

      Oh and do me a favour. Stop getting your buddy to mod you insightful. It's tragic.

      I've got an iTurd for sale just for you. Just $999. Special one day offer.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    2. Re:*Your* MP3 player is crippled. by LKM · · Score: 1

      Only a complete fool would argue that a crypticly named set of directories and files that you have to use software to fix beats a mountable drive with well named MP3s.

      I congratulate you on insulting me. Now I look forward to actually hearing an argument explaining to me why the hell a cheap cop-out like just mounting an MP3 player as a file sysstem is actually a good thing, and why I'm a fool for preferring the MP3 player which provides more features such as syncing and automation. I think I've explained to you why I prefer my solution: I just plug in my iPod and iPhone to get all the data on them updated individually, automatically - new songs, ratings (which sync both ways), podcats, TV shows, and so on. Please explain to me how preferring the easier, better solution makes me a complete fool.

      Oh and do me a favour. Stop getting your buddy to mod you insightful. It's tragic.

      Well, that's actually an interesting idea you got there. The fact that you think so highly of your absurd idea that you assume everyone modding my answer to your post up must somehow be a buddy of mine makes you a pretty damn sad fuck. This might be news to you, but not everyone thinks managing an MP3 player by hand like it's 1995 is actually a good idea.

      Oh, and do me a favour. Stop modding me overrated with your sock puppet accounts (because I don't actually think you have a buddy).

      And a nice weekend to you, sir.

    3. Re:*Your* MP3 player is crippled. by argiedot · · Score: 1

      See, I'm not an expert on UI design, but frankly I like the whole copying file operation to be consistent - copying from one hard drive to another, from the hard drive to a usb drive, from the computer to a phone via bluetooth, from one computer on a network to another,... All these things are done from one interface and I find it hard to imagine a system where I would need to use different programs to do each one of these things.

  35. non iphone users bashing iphones again by 5n3ak3rp1mp · · Score: 1

    Fully 50% of the people I've demoed it for, have ordered one. So, if you don't want to want one, don't touch one, don't get a demo of one, and you'll be blissfully ignorant. Me, I always have to take the red pill...

    1. Re:non iphone users bashing iphones again by syousef · · Score: 1

      Fully 50% of the people I've demoed it for, have ordered one. So, if you don't want to want one, don't touch one, don't get a demo of one, and you'll be blissfully ignorant.

      Good salesmen can sell snake oil. Part of the process is selecting the right sheep^H^H^H^H^Hpeople. Doesn't make it a good product.

      What's the bet you don't mention it's flaws.

      Me, I always have to take the red pill...

      Now that I believe.

      If a phone isn't feature complete or is intentionally crippled I have no interest in paying large sums of money for it. I can't stand Apple's marketting, sales and support practices so I'll happily stay away. The one time I've succumb in the last few years was to buy my wife and I iPods. Big mistake. Staying away from Apple means no pills needed.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
  36. Non-programmable? by Dr.+Manhattan · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Palm and Windows smartphones...both at first where also non-programmable (yes they where and anyone who says otherwise is a liar)

    What, exactly, do you mean my 'non-programmable'? Developing Palm applications is quirky but not particularly hard, and I'm not aware of any Palm phone ever that wouldn't let you load third-party apps. The vast majority of the apps I use each day on my Treo 650 are third-party.

    Do you mean the phone functions themselves aren't programmable? Maybe that was true at the introduction of the early Treos, I didn't have one. Even those would take third-party apps for other functions, though. Nowadays there are multiple applications that add phone and SMS and other functions, and the API is available. I have a hard time believing that the Windows side is much different.

    --
    PHEM - party like it's 1997-2003!
  37. Wait a month. by 5n3ak3rp1mp · · Score: 1

    While I cannot argue your point today... Wait one month. That's all I can say. ;) (SDK will make the iphone cool all over again)

  38. bullshit by nguy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    hey might not be carrier exclusives [...] but both are ALSO tied to their own exclusive programs

    You're bullshitting. Palm, Symbian, and Windows Mobile have been available unlocked and have not been tied to any carrier for years.

    and both at first where also non-programmable (yes they where and anyone who says otherwise is a liar), and only opened up a year or two later.

    Again, totally wrong. All three of those systems developed out of programmable PDA platforms. Even if they had been non-programmable a decade ago, it's 2008, and the standard is that smartphones are user-programmable today, both via native APIs and via Java. Apple's iPhone is neither, and it's carrier locked, and it is tied to Apple's desktop.

    It has not even been a year for Apples product and they have already promised to open up their programing before the year mark.

    Apple has been vague on the specifics; just because Jobs calls it "programmable" doesn't mean it is. iPods are "programmable" as well, that doesn't mean that ISVs can create software and offer it for download. Furthermore, iPhones remain locked and tied to Apple's desktop.

    So your argument is basically null and void.

    You are an Apple apologist, and you don't even know your facts.

  39. Iphone by AlphaMaelstrom · · Score: 2, Interesting

    "The phone dropped calls constantly, the battery stopped charging before it was full, data and applications routinely became corrupted and unusable. The list of problems seemed endless." I got an iphone 2 months ago. Every single word in that sentence still applies. Battery has charging issues they say is a firmware problem,, but it hasn't been fixed yet after several firmware updates, it drops calls constantly (even at full signal strength), and I routinely have to reset the phone to make crashed applications work again. As to problems, howsabout the iphone plan includes MMS, but the phone doesn't support them at all, or the inability to check relatively simple information like your call history while you're in a call?

  40. Security Trainwreck by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I guess now we know why the iPhone is a security nightmare... because it was slapped together in a few months to satisfy a pointy-haired boss.

  41. "Dupe", my arse!! by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

    its hilarious slashdot has a script to tag when a reply is a duplicate, but no script to stop duplicate stories on the front page. I love the way that, despite the endless posts about dupes on Slashdot, virtually no-one questions the (IMHO incorrect) assumption that most of them are based upon.

    Namely, that the dupes are not intentional.

    Of course they are- Slashdot is a commercial site. I'm guessing that the income from advertising page views far outweighs that from subscriptions.

    If you get a good story that is generates a lot of discussion- and hence views- it's still eventually going to get pushed off the front page by newer stories. The most plausible way to get more life from it is to repost it and (implicitly) play along with the "whoops.... the editors duped it again!" consensus. It makes them look implausibly incompetent (IIRC Zonk once posted the same story twice himself), but they can probably live with that. Plus, it provides a focus for endless flawed discussions about why the editors keep "missing" these dupes.

    I don't hate Slashdot for this, because (like the majority of us) I don't subscribe and never have. They have to make money somehow, and they'd probably get more stick for openly reposting and recycling stories. But for people to discuss this assuming that the editors really *are* that incompetent- yet somehow remain in employment, and that Slashdot- somehow- hasn't solved the problem of dupes after 10 years is just silly.

    Where's Occam's razor when you need it, folks?
    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
    1. Re:"Dupe", my arse!! by kv9 · · Score: 1

      Where's Occam's razor when you need it, folks? right next to your tinfoil hat?
    2. Re:"Dupe", my arse!! by Dogtanian · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Where's Occam's razor when you need it, folks? right next to your tinfoil hat? Well, if you think that my straightforward and obvious explanation of the reposts as basic commercial pragmatism (and not conspiratorial evil) is implausible, then so be it.

      Obviously, it's more reasonable to believe that the editors remain in their jobs despite being so mentally incompetent that their keyboards should have short-circuited through filling up with drool, and that Slashdot keeps itself afloat financially through the generosity of the Magical Website Fairies...
      --
      "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  42. Re:The ultimate origin by Dogtanian · · Score: 1

    Steve asked a bunch of niggers what sort of phone they'd like, and did the opposite. Oh, I guess they asked for a reasonably-priced phone then.
    --
    "Slashdot - News and Chat Sites Deviant". (Click "homepage" link above for details).
  43. Apple vs. Motorola, Nokia, Palm, Windows Mob, etc. by nilbog · · Score: 1

    This is the difference between Apple and the other cell phone manufacturers and software makers. If this barely-working device had been produced at a board meeting at Palm, they would have patted themselves on the back and shipped it. If the Microsoft Windows mobile team had showed such a horrendous device - same story, it would have been on everyone's phone within a year. The bottom line for most companies is "is it good enough to make people buy."

    This is the difference between a good, revolutionary CEO and an average one when it comes to running a technology company. All a CEO has to do to become good is say "no" to the first several iterations of whatever it is they're working on. Steve says no and demands greatness. It's not that greatness is impossible, people just need to be pushed to achieve it.

    --
    or else!
  44. simple idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Its as simple, as ... .. a social network of stories.

    Slashcode (ergh), i mean, the system the beloved editors use to "submit" their stories, shall check if there another story, with a link to the same article exits previously...

    well..... when you want to give EXTRA publicity to some news... that system would be a pain in the ass.

    at times i think such looking for perfection (as no duped stories), kills the point.

  45. good article by scolbert · · Score: 0

    This is a good article. Looking forward to developing iPhone apps with next week announced SDK. This is going to be cool.

  46. History Repeating by meehawl · · Score: 1

    The one that talks in length about how the iPhone will pretty much break the existing stranglehold the carriers hold over phones? That alone is the most innovative "feature" any cell phone has come up with thus far.

    You're just repeating the article's assertions, which are unfounded. Apple has shipped GSM phone with the ultimate lock in: non-easy-user-accessible SIM card. And Google's Visual Voicemail works fine on lots of phones, so it's obviously not that big a deal. And the Samsung touchscreens with the haptic feedback - they are the touchy hotness, not Apple's dead glass screen that can;t be operated without eyeballing it.

    --

    Da Blog
    1. Re:History Repeating by stewbacca · · Score: 1

      You're just repeating the article's assertions, which are unfounded.
      Pardon me for reading the article then commenting on its assertions. Isn't that the whole point of this discussion forum?

      Non-easy-user-accessible SIM card? It's right on top. I guess needing a paper-clip makes it non-easy?

      At least you are the first person to list some alternatives to visual voice mail and the Apple touch screen. I've not seen either of these examples, but I'll go check them out. I doubt they'll be impressive, otherwise I'm sure they would be widespread knowledge by now.

  47. Visual Voicemail by meehawl · · Score: 1

    there are certain feature sets unique to the iPhone that required a carrier to change their services to work with the iPhone(I believe the visual-voice mail is the example being thrown around)

    Others have responded to you, and I did above, but I will repeat again. Given a fast 3G service, visual voicemail is trivial to implement. Google/GrandCentral and others have been doing it before last year browser and then, even better, using just SMS. No carrier backhaul massive reingineering required. That's what network neutrality gets you. The real deal with 3G now is doing video VOIP - so far Microsoft is ahead of the others with Portrait.

    --

    Da Blog
    1. Re:Visual Voicemail by stewbacca · · Score: 1
      While I see your point, the bottom line is this all sounds fine and dandy, but Apple is the only one who seems to actually bring it to market. Perhaps there are a few very small players that have offered it since before the iPhone, or have better features, but the Apple product is the one that is changing things up. This seems to be the M.O. of all slashdot forums. Apple takes something already being used by some insignificant player and makes it mainstream, then thousands of slashdotters come in and talk about how they "knew the band before they were famous". Maybe Apple is just really good at adopting new technologies and bringing them to mass market? (mouse, cd-rom, usb, iPod, etc.)

      So with GSM based visual voice mail I guess you go into a browser interface to fetch your mail? Network neutrality is fine for this, but (again, back to the article), Apple designed Visual Voice Mail as a stand alone feature and then got a carrier to change their network capabilities to match the function of the phone. The otherway around (Apple making their mail work with GSM) just panders to the carriers (again, the whole point of the article).

  48. I Find Your Lack Of Faith Disturbing by meehawl · · Score: 1

    I doubt they'll be impressive, otherwise I'm sure they would be widespread knowledge by now.

    Your lack of faith in the power of the RDF is disturbing.

    --

    Da Blog
  49. You're *not* "copying files" to an MP3 player by LKM · · Score: 1

    See, I'm not an expert on UI design, but frankly I like the whole copying file operation to be consistent - copying from one hard drive to another, from the hard drive to a usb drive, from the computer to a phone via bluetooth, from one computer on a network to another,...

    But that's the whole thing: you're not "copying files" to an MP3 player.

    Well, okay, if you want to move your presentation on your MP3 player so you can copy it to the laptop in the conference room, sure. That's copying a file. And you can do that with an iPod just like with any other external memory device.

    But your MP3 songs aren't ordinary files. They're songs. They have metadata, they're part of playlists, they have relational data such as CD cover images and songtexts. Almost nobody uses Windows explorer to manage songs, so why force people to use Windows explorer to put songs on an MP3 player? It makes no sense. You listen to your songs in an MP3 player application. You manage your songs in this application. You probably also subcribe to a bunch of podcasts, which are also in your MP3 player application. And if you have iTunes, you probably have some movies and TV shows in there, too. So ther's an application which knows everything about your songs. Yet you want to throw all of that away and copy your songs by hand?

    I have an iPhone and an iPod nano. I use the iPod when I go jogging and the iPhone for everything else. I synchronize podcasts to both devices. I put movies and TV shows on my iPhone, and I put music on my iPod. My iPod is connected to my Mac whenever I don't use it, and my iPhone is connected to the Mac once a day. I always have a random selection of songs on my iPod, selected from well-rated but "not listened to for some time" songs. I automatically have the latest TV shows on my iPhone. When I start listening to a Podcast on my iPhone and then listen to the same podcast on my iPod, the device starts exactly where I stopped listening on the iPhone. It all just works automatically; other than plugging the devices into the Mac, I do nothing at all. If I rip new music, it's automatically included in my playlist. If a new TV show comes out, it's automatically put on my iPhone. If a new podcast is published, it's automatically put on both of my devices. I don't have to think. I don't have to copy. I don't have to manage. I don't even see that as "copying."

    There is no reason at all why people should be forced to look at this as "copying" when it has nothign to do with what we normally call "copying" other than being the same "technical" action. I honestly don't understand why people want MP3 players which have to be managed manually, in the Windows explorer. I have yet to hear one actual argument which explains to me why this is a good thing, and what I gain from throwing away all the functions I have for manual copying.

    1. Re:You're *not* "copying files" to an MP3 player by maciejkt · · Score: 1

      > I have yet to hear one actual argument which explains to me why this is a good thing, and what I gain from throwing away all the functions I have for manual copying.

      Well, it raises your geek-factor by an order of magnitude!

    2. Re:You're *not* "copying files" to an MP3 player by argiedot · · Score: 1

      Ah, interesting, I don't do all that so it doesn't strike me. I usually set different playlists on my phone and on my laptop anyway.

      You've got a point about all of that though, I agree. And that bit about it continuing the podcast at the same place is one damn good feature. It's all a nice integrated world, and it sounds good. However, the songs I have are just that: songs. With id3 tags. And I don't see a need for me to have any more than that. So, I'll stick with copying, but I'll concede that yes, having a database does help.

    3. Re:You're *not* "copying files" to an MP3 player by LKM · · Score: 1

      And that bit about it continuing the podcast at the same place is one damn good feature.

      Yeah, I love that, too. There's a bunch of things which syncs both ways. I can rate songs on my iPod and iPhone, and iTunes will copy the new ratings back to the library. I can create playlists on the devices, and they will be moved to iTunes the next time I connect the two.

      Even if you don't use all that, using iTunes has an advantage: it saves space on the device. iTunes stores (as far as I can tell) only one copy of each album art image on the iPod, even if several MP3 files use the same image. And since album art looks really nice on the iPods and the iPhone, I don't want to remove the images from the songs, so it's quite a bit of space that I can use for actual content :-)

      But yeah, if you don't intend to use all these features, you don't miss out on much by managing by hand, in Explorer.

  50. true by LKM · · Score: 1

    I have to give you that :-)

  51. iPhone article by scolbert · · Score: 0

    A must read, pretty interesting, though typical inside Apple story. The iPhone was the easiest product to develop but Steve Jobs willed it into existance.