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Lenovo Delivers SuSE Linux-Based ThinkPads

Posted by kdawson on from the another-nail dept.

angryfirelord notes a DesktopLinux article on Lenovo's promise to deliver ThinkPads with pre-installed Novell SuSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 in the week of January 14. Quoting: "Lenovo will release pre-installed SLED 10 on its Intel Centrino processor-powered ThinkPad T61 and R61 14-inch-wide notebooks. In February, Lenovo's pre-integrated Novell Linux offering will expand to include some Penryn-based ThinkPads. The starting price for this system will be $949, $20 less than the same laptop with Vista Home Premium."

149 comments

  1. Perhaps... by ThePromenader · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    One day we won't need Negroponte's OLOC plan? This looks like the next level up, anyhow.

    --

    No, no sig. Really.

    ThePromenader
    1. Re:Perhaps... by ThePromenader · · Score: 1

      WTF??? Sorry, wrong thread!

      Happy to see the Linux desktop gaining ground, anyhow.

      --

      No, no sig. Really.

      ThePromenader
  2. MS tax by tsa · · Score: 3, Interesting

    The starting price for this system will be $949, $20 less than the same laptop with Vista Home Premium.

    But since the OS is Suse, you still pay a Microsoft tax, am I right? I wonder when we will finally be able to buy laptops without any OS at all on them.

    --

    -- Cheers!

    1. Re:MS tax by Moonpie+Madness · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I guess IBM might have more expenses getting Suse on these things than Vista (per laptop, since these don't scale like Windows).

      If that's not the case, then this $20 savings isn't acceptable to me. If you're using Linux, you need to know how to install Linux. So like you say, let's see some unformatted hard drives or a totally free OS.

    2. Re:MS tax by the_womble · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If you're using Linux, you need to know how to install Linux.

      Why? There is absolutely no reason why users need to know how to install any desktop OS.


      I have installed Linux for several people who manage updates and configuration fine but who would be likely to to run into problems if they installed from scratch themselves.


      Servers are different, of course, and so are many corporate desktops that need a standardised installation. However, this is a laptop that is being sold to people who want a pre-installed OS.

    3. Re:MS tax by SerpentMage · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Everybody complains about the MS Tax because of the prices they see at the retail level. Folks see how much the OS costs in the store. But at the OEM level the OS costs are not that bad. Maybe this 20 USD is a bit low, but I can't see it more than 50 USD difference.

      That's why I personally don't see Linux happening on the desktop. If two comparable laptops have a price differential of max 50 USD I think most people would say, "Oh hey why not Windows after all most stuff is compatible with Windows." Linux does not actually stand a chance.

      After all, OSX, which is even more expensive than Windows and Linux is making inroads by many. The moral of the story is that on the desktop I don't think price of operating system is the major decision maker. People want things to work out of the box without any hassles

      On the server side there is a huge price differential and that's also why I think Linux did make inroads on the server side.

      --

      "You can't make a race horse of a pig"
      "No," said Samuel, "but you can make very fast pig"
    4. Re:MS tax by sewalg · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why do people using Linux need to know how to install it? Clearly, many people buy a laptop with Windows but have absolutely no idea how to install it or, for that matter, how it works. In fact, its this type of person who is IBM's biggest market. Surely, IBM's goal is to reduce any barrier to the uptake of these machines in that market. I'd say that's why they've chosen to support a particular brand of Linux rather than offer a cleanskin computer.

      Also, on the subject of cost, have you any idea how much it will cost IBM to train and establish a support mechanism for these machines? I'd say a $20 saving is a pleasant surprise more than anything. Even price parity between Linux and Windows machines would be difficult to achieve early on, given the heavy discounting of MS products for OEMs, and the huge outlay IBM must have made to establish enough of a support network to bring these laptops to market!

      --
      fortune >> sig.txt && cp sig.txt /.
    5. Re:MS tax by Syonax · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The OEM price of windows is much more than 50 dollars.

      I managed to buy a thinkpad T60 in the Netherlands a few weeks ago with a preemptive windows (XP) refund. The dealer removed the OS and gave me a discount for the OEM price, which was 129.71 euros, about 190 dollars.

      I would have been happy for Lenovo to give that money to a random linux distribution, but now I can decide myself which one gets it.

    6. Re:MS tax by VagaStorm · · Score: 1

      No more so than they need to know how to install windows. Installing suse has become at least as easy and intuitive as installing windows, and a noob user will not need to go about figuring out what spyware/malware/antivirus/firewall protection they want in addition.

      --
      www.aleo.no
    7. Re:MS tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      http://www.zepto.se/

      (No, I'm not affil.. afilli... affill.. I'm not making any money from mentioning them)

    8. Re:MS tax by houghi · · Score: 1

      But since the OS is Suse, you still pay a Microsoft tax, am I right?


      No, you won't.
      --
      Don't fight for your country, if your country does not fight for you.
    9. Re:MS tax by tsa · · Score: 1, Interesting

      My use of 'MS tax' may be a bit wrong. By 'MS tax' I meant you pay MS a price for not being prosecuted for patent violations in the Linux OS. Novell made this deal with MS, remember? Sorry for being unclear.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    10. Re:MS tax by Soft+Cosmic+Rusk · · Score: 1

      No, Windows might not be that expensive - but even then, I would much rather buy a PC with Linux or no OS at all than buy one with Windows, even if I had to pay 100-200$ more! It's the priciple...

    11. Re:MS tax by ozmanjusri · · Score: 4, Insightful
      But since the OS is Suse, you still pay a Microsoft tax, am I right?

      The value of the royalties Novell will pay to MS from OEM installs is likely to be vanishingly small. The main benefit Microsoft got from the deal was the FUD, and that mostly backfired on them.

      I have a HP laptop with SLED10 pre-installed, it even has a little green Suse logo where the XP one normally goes. It's one of the better Linux experiences around, especially for corporates and newcomers to Linux. And let's face it, even if you wipe SLED10 and install your own favorite, all the hardware will be supported and manufacturers will see there's demand for Linux compatibles.

      I wouldn't worry about tacitly supporting Microsoft via Novell either. Now that innovators like Asus and Nokia have shown the way, I suspect the day of the big generic desktop Linux is over, and manufacturers will shrink-fit versions of Linux onto their own hardware.

      --
      "I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
    12. Re:MS tax by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      According to a recent slashdot traarticle, Microsoft paid $355M to Novel in 2007, so I don't see how that translates into a Microsoft tax. For me, it translates into a linux distro that's on the take from Microsoft... no way in hell would I ever install it. First thing I'd do with the Lenovo laptop si wipe the drive. Then again, living here in NC where IBM use to design these laptops, and knowing quite a few out of work IBM-ers, there's no way in hell I'd buy a Lenovo laptop.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    13. Re:MS tax by 1u3hr · · Score: 2, Interesting
      have you any idea how much it will cost IBM to train and establish a support mechanism for these machines?

      Do you know that it will cost more than training support for Windows?

      One thing I do know is that the DRM in Windows makes support a big pain. You can't easily roll out a custom boot disc, for instance, to solve problems. In fact, I sometimes use Linux boot discs to fix Windows myself.

      Also, Thinkpads are made by "Lenovo", not "IBM" these days. Though IBM probably still provides many services.

    14. Re:MS tax by Low5 · · Score: 2, Informative

      This probably won't help anyone outside the UK, but http://www.novatech.co.uk/ sell systems (including laptops) without any OS at all, and these seem to go for about 50GBP (100USD) less than with the cheapest MS OS (currently XP).

      --
      -- "If the truth can be told so as to be understood, it will be believed."
    15. Re:MS tax by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Not Windows, Vista. The support costs of Vista are so high, and it remains so fragile in customer environments, that SuSE may well be a fiscal benefit for Lenovo to provide instead, irrelevant of the greater retail cost of Vista.

      This is certainly the case right now for Windows XP and Vista, as numerous laptop and desktop retailers have learned to their dismay.

    16. Re:MS tax by joostje · · Score: 1

      I managed to buy a thinkpad T60 in the Netherlands a few weeks ago with a preemptive windows (XP) refund. The dealer removed the OS and gave me a discount for the OEM price, which was 129.71 euros, about 190 dollars.
      As my current laptop is falling appart, and I live in the Netherlands, I would like to know where you managed to get that refund (mijn email: joostje apestaartje komputilo.org).
    17. Re:MS tax by johny42 · · Score: 1

      Could you be a little more specific? From what I've heard, IBM (Lenovo ThinkPad) laptops are one of the most reliable around.

    18. Re:MS tax by smilindog2000 · · Score: 1

      I'm sure the ThinkPads are good machines. They certainly were when IBM made them. Now that IBM has sold their entire desktop and laptop lines to Lenovo (a China based company), Lenovo down-sizes the NC operation more each year, moving jobs to China where labor is cheaper. It's basically a Chinese operation now. I guess that's not really much different from Dell or HP, who also build their machines in China, but Lenovo moved all the other jobs as well.

      --
      Beer is proof that God loves us, and wants us to be happy.
    19. Re:MS tax by angryfirelord · · Score: 1

      But since the OS is Suse, you still pay a Microsoft tax, am I right? Unless there's something I missed in Microsoft's patent deal, the only money Microsoft gets is by buying SuSE coupons from Novell. Then, they distribute the coupons to its "customers" and collect the revenue. Unless Lenovo bought these coupons from Microsoft, I don't think M$ is getting any cash.

      Even if it still has a Microsoft tax, I think choosing SUSE over another distro such as Ubuntu is a better idea. I don't have anything against Ubuntu at all, but SUSE has a nice control center (YaST) and a polished desktop that would certainly appeal to new users.
    20. Re:MS tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      But that would be worse for the Linux community. The # of distros of Linux out there is both a strength and a weakness. The fact that there is no 'Linux x.x' standard install target for application developers like there is for Windows or OSX means that you have to custom-tailor packages for each distro's management system. And *increasing* the number of distros out there isn't going to remedy that.

      I've had *a lot* of problems with package management systems. One of the most frustrating things is when people say "Install this using this 3rd party repository" only to discover that the repository only supports x86 and/or x86_64 binaries and possibly doesn't even have the source files for me to build my own. This becomes increasingly relevent as devices running linux will have things like ARM processors in them instead of Intel/AMD x86 procs.

    21. Re:MS tax by tacocat · · Score: 1

      My experience with SLED has not been so favorable. SuSE works well as long as you do only what it expects you to do. If you deviate too far from their expectations in software installed and configuration options used, you might be OK.

      But I seriously doubt that you can wipe the system, install something else Linux, and expect it to work as well. SuSE, with Novell, with Microsoft, gives you an avenue into highly proprietary closed binary software that is otherwise not utilized by most Linux distributions.

      I am thrilled that they are doing this, it's a good sign. But the way to make this really cool, is to have Lenovo drive their hardware to work with existing Linux software code. This is more akin to Apple and it's OS and less like Microsoft and their hardware. Lenovo has the control of their software such that they can pre-publish all the specifics of their hardware and make the effort to get the Linux community all of the information necessary to make sure that the software/hardware combination works 100% of the time.

    22. Re:MS tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Am I the only one to find it ironic, humorous, and appropriate that Vista Home Premium is charged only 20$ more than a free OS? In truth, that's probably what Vista is worth to most of us, if not a whole lot less.

    23. Re:MS tax by BlackCreek · · Score: 1

      I managed to buy a thinkpad T60 in the Netherlands a few weeks ago with a preemptive windows (XP) refund. The dealer removed the OS and gave me a discount for the OEM price, which was 129.71 euros, about 190 dollars.

      I also live in the NL, and would love to know how you pulled this out. When I bought my laptop I fought tooth and nail not to pay WinXP tax but failed.

      Please consider writing something on the LXER newsgroups, or even on this thread so that other people can get more info about this.

      Cheers,

    24. Re:MS tax by Krunch · · Score: 1

      Could you please detail the process you went through to get the refund (and maybe give dealer's name)?

      --
      No GNU has been Hurd during the making of this comment.
    25. Re:MS tax by Syonax · · Score: 4, Informative

      I had contact with both the dealer, http://bluelink.nl/, and IBM/Lenovo themselves. I wanted to make sure I would get the refund before I bought anything. The way it was arranged in the end was probably the simplest solution. The windows flavour involved was XP.

      IBM/Lenovo were actually very easy to convince. I called them because I had heard of the plans discussed in this article. They even offered to talk to unhelpful dealers for me. Bluelink needed a little more convincing, but I just kept politely and clearly invalidating any arguments they came up with against giving me a refund. This article by Serge Wroclawski http://www.linux.com/articles/59381 was very useful. The counters to all the arguments they came up with are there. I remained friendly and polite the whole time, but the people at Bluelink probably still thought I was some kind of crazy zealot making a fuss.

      After my initial phone call to Bluelink asking for a written offer, all communication with them went via email. That way I had more time to think about what I said and compose a convincing message (I can be a bit clumsy on the phone), and there was a written record as well. I also took IBM/Lenovo up on the offer to talk to Bluelink for me. I have no idea what the IBM/Lenovo guy said to Bluelink to make it work, though, because I never saw that communication.

      There must be other manufacturers and vendors where this could work as well. My previous laptop was an ASUS, which I bought without any OS on it about 5 years ago. Back then manufacturers were a lot less helpful. I remember talking to several manufacturers before buying the ASUS and being completely stonewalled. Because of my good experience with ASUS, I contacted them this time around too, and they seemed quite willing to help. But I didn't manage to get the store where I bought my previous laptop to cave quickly enough, so I didn't pursue it when I could get an acceptable configuration from http://zepto.com/, where you can buy empty notebooks. I still preferred the specs of the thinkpad. I had almost given up on it when I got an offer with a preemptive windows refund from Bluelink.

      Hope this helps!

      Syonax

    26. Re:MS tax by Moonpie+Madness · · Score: 1

      Is it really that hard to install Linux? Jesus, man, you stick a live cd in there and click a couple of things. It's pretty damn important to understand formating drives, etc, and whatever basic stuff goes along with installing an OS.

      Linux, particularly Ubuntu, is somewhat easy to use, but you will come into problems. Almost always you will need to figure something out, be it how to fix your resolution or how to get a driver, or whatever. It's not hard, but it's at the level where you probably should be capable of installing the freaking OS in teh first place.

      Unless you think it's totally ok that your friends are defendant on you. You realize that, aside from these laptops, most Linux users don't get the kind of support Windows users have access to. They can't always find a friend to help, they can't go to Best Buy (no loss there, but...) and generally their vendor, ISP, etc, will not help them out.

      They need to learn how to freaking install an OS. Just as everyone who drives needs to at least understand how to change oil, rotate and chance tires, etc, just so they don't get totally screwed because they are too dependant on others.

      I have NO IDEA why my post is construed as flamebait. I prefer Ubuntu, and I'm not trying to denounce its use. It takes all of ten minutes to explain most of this shit to somebody. All I'm saying is, next time you give your friend Linux, walk through the installation so they understand. Because, if their like me, they're going to want to try using sevearl live cds of different linux flavors, and probably will even install another (or a newer version of the same one) eventually.

      Granted, this is a laptop that will be supported. It's still kinda a waste of money in my opinion, when you can get Vista for merely $20 dollar more, and just partition a separate drive for Ubuntu (this is precisely how my thinkpad looks, except I downgraded to XP). Vista may suck, but it's worth $20 to keep the ability to run some Windows stuff.

    27. Re:MS tax by Moonpie+Madness · · Score: 1

      I honestly think you're plain wrong, but I have no evidence.

      Let's assume you're right, for sake of argument.

      Isn't it worth $20 to keep Vista? You can partition off 80% of your hard drive for Ubuntu, which is better for most people than Suse. And you can use Windows for those occasions that you need to (even if it's very rare, it's worth $20.

      Most customers out there are going to realize this, and keep Vista while acquiring their own free distro.

      Am I accusing IBM of ripping people off? No. The real reason it's only $20 off is because IBM has to spend a lot more per Suse machine to implement and support, because it's at such a lower scale. this is why I argue that Linux users whould have basic knowledge of how to install their own OS, and support their own computer. Frankly, I think everyone whould have such basic knowledge. We are tolerating too much ignorance, and it causes enormous opportunities for crappy support Geek Squads and Trojan distributors.

      I'm asking folks to know how to install Linux, which I think can be pretty easy to learn. Is that really flamebait? It is just something someone disagrees with, or is it flamebait? I'm recently back to /. after years away, so maybe I just don't understand the culture here, but I think the moderating is kinda bizarre. Clue me in please.

    28. Re:MS tax by Fri13 · · Score: 1

      Because OS is GNU/Linux, there is since no MS Tax but because distribution is SUSE, there might be somekind connection to Microsoft. But hey! Who cares, that laptop is available to customers by default running a GNU/Linux and not Windows XP or Windows Vista Operating system.

    29. Re:MS tax by Chysn · · Score: 1

      > If that's not the case, then this $20 savings isn't acceptable to me.

      Even though SuSE itself is free, Lenovo does have some costs associated with the offering that they'll need to recover. For one thing, I'm sure they've done quite a bit of work porting their excellent ThinkVantage utility software to Linux.

      My ThinkPad is about a year old with Windows XP. I installed Ubuntu and Grub in a separate partition, but nothing happens in Ubuntu when I press the blue button. I'd love to have those utilities available when running under Ubuntu. Maybe that will be an option now.

      In any case, this is good news and something to get excited about when I buy my next ThinkPad.

      --
      --I'm so big, my sig has its own sig.
      -- See?
    30. Re:MS tax by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Why? There is absolutely no reason why users need to know how to install any desktop OS.

      Why is something as basic as a desktop OS something that one needs to "know how to install"? Why do we still have a concept of "installation" as something that's nontrivial?

      Your statement sounds as bizarre to me as "There is absolutely no reason why users need to know how to connect to the internet". It was a reasonable concern, when connecting to the internet required a bunch of obscure knowledge. Today, though, I can walk into any coffee shop in the country (except Starbucks, I guess, because they charge for it), select "Turn AirPort On", and I'm done.

      Installation should be as easy as insert DVD, turn on computer, click "Install $(os_name) on blank hard disk", wait 10 minutes.
    31. Re:MS tax by donaldm · · Score: 1

      In Australia the OEM costs for MS Vista Home (32 bit)or MS XP (32 bit) is approx US$100. For Vista Ultimate (32 bit) the price is over US$200 and this price is for a Custom built machine. Of course if you purchase a pre-built machine the Microsoft OEM costs are built into the total price of the machine and the person doing the buying has no idea what the original OEM price is. This is what is commonly called the "Microsoft Tax".

      All you get with an MS Windows OEM install is a pre-built version of a MS Windows distribution and from what I have seen you need to create a "Recovery CD/DVD" which you can only do once, so loose this and hello your friendly pirate or you can pay full price (normally over two times the OEM price) for the genuine install kit. If the user has any smarts they should create a image or ghost backup of their base OS and use this if required because if you have the right image tools the image creation (base install not user data) should take approx 30 minutes as does the recovery time.

      The problem is that most people have no idea that they can image their disk much less create a Recovery CD/DVD until something goes wrong. To be fair most people would not know how to do this even if they had a Linux machine although you would normally find that a Linux user has more technical expertise and is more likely to create a valid recovery mechanism than a Microsoft centric user.

      --
      There ain't no such thing as proprietary standards only proprietary formats. Standards are by definition open.
    32. Re:MS tax by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      Almost always you will need to figure something out, be it how to fix your resolution or how to get a driver, or whatever.

      The only questions you really have to answer, in most cases, is what username and password you want and which language you are using. Other than that it is totally automatic. It recognized all of my hardware and installed it all automatically without a single additional question. In fact, when I plugged in my printer, it popped up a message that it was installed and ready to use. No installation required - just plug it in and turn it on.
    33. Re:MS tax by whereareweheadedto · · Score: 1

      It would be nice, if everything worked the way you and your parent poster have written. I'd like you both to make short, 15 minute presentation, that would allow people with no technical background to understand Linux installation. When you do that, sit back and watch Linux desktop share rise, rise, rise... Recently, a friend and co-worker changed his desktop OS from XP to Ubuntu. He had issues and I had to help him resolve them more than once. So, what were they? Nothing more than setting up email (Lotus Notes), connecting network printers, accessing network shares. I'm talking about technically aware person. I admit, Ubuntu makes it easy to install and set up basic functionality, but it's unfortunately not even close to Microsofts' systems. Yet.

    34. Re:MS tax by dave87656 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'd like you both to make short, 15 minute presentation, that would allow people with no technical background to understand Linux installation.
      Actually, I work remotely. So, I had a non-technical guy setup two new machines. He had never installed Linux before. He works in the accounting office and didn't even know what the term Operating System meant. I gave him instructions up front as follows: what to name the machine and to use a fixed IP address which I gave him.

      He installed Ubuntu without further questions to me and without any problems.

      I hate to break it to you, but it really is that easy. It's easier to setup a Ubuntu box than it is to install a printer, for example, under Windows. The vendor's drivers are probably better for Windows, which makes sense, but Ubuntu installs working drivers out of the box.

      So, what were they? Nothing more than setting up email (Lotus Notes), connecting network printers, accessing network shares.
      As far as setting up Lotus notes, that's an application issue has nothing to do, per se, with Ubuntu. Connecting network printers is easier under Ubuntu. You click on "New Printer", select "Internet Printer (IPP)" and put in the address.

      On that topic, our non-technical guy setup our four network printers on these newly installed Ubuntu boxes without my help. He informed me afterwards. Only one printer didn't work correctly because he didn't have the correct address for it. Yep, it is that easy.

      But you assume that novices can do all these things under Windows. My mother cannot setup an email program under Windows. She has no idea what a pop server or smtp server is. That has nothing to do with Linux or Windows.

      As far as setting up network shares. I fail to see what is so difficult or more difficult under Linux compared to Windows. It is different, true, but certainly not more difficult.
    35. Re:MS tax by paulatz · · Score: 0

      But since the OS is Suse, you still pay a Microsoft tax, am I right? I wonder when we will finally be able to buy laptops without any OS at all on them.

      Ignorance is the mother off all FUDs (while Ballmer is the father)

      --
      this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
    36. Re:MS tax by paulatz · · Score: 1

      Of course, if you plan to use the laptop as web server+php, a corporate firewall/proxy and a file server with automated tape backup then it may be better to wipe SLED and install you favourite distro instead.

      --
      this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
    37. Re:MS tax by tsa · · Score: 1

      That was really helpful, and a valuable addition to the discussion. Thank you.

      --

      -- Cheers!

    38. Re:MS tax by etwills · · Score: 1

      I wouldn't worry about tacitly supporting Microsoft via Novell either. Now that innovators like Asus and Nokia have shown the way, I suspect the day of the big generic desktop Linux is over, and manufacturers will shrink-fit versions of Linux onto their own hardware.

      It will be interesting to see how the story of the Eee pans out, since it runs Xandros and they too have a "Novell style" deal. There's some concern here too.

      (Personally, I like the fact it has some promise to be more WMA-compatible than my current, buggy, mp3 player - and if it's not, there might be I can do something about it)

    39. Re:MS tax by rJah · · Score: 1

      I wonder when we will finally be able to buy laptops without any OS at all on them. I bought a HP Compaq with freeDos installed. Had to DL all windows drivers, the good news is the comp is SUSE 10.3 certified so I had no driver issues (thank god).
    40. Re:MS tax by JohnBailey · · Score: 1

      Why is something as basic as a desktop OS something that one needs to "know how to install"? Why do we still have a concept of "installation" as something that's nontrivial?

      Your statement sounds as bizarre to me as "There is absolutely no reason why users need to know how to connect to the internet". It was a reasonable concern, when connecting to the internet required a bunch of obscure knowledge. Today, though, I can walk into any coffee shop in the country (except Starbucks, I guess, because they charge for it), select "Turn AirPort On", and I'm done.

      Installation should be as easy as insert DVD, turn on computer, click "Install $(os_name) on blank hard disk", wait 10 minutes. It should be that simple. But the hardware and software industries have been going their own ways for far too long.

      In reality. No OS "just works" otherwise there would be no help forums. And you Apple fanboys can stop looking smug.. I read about the problems some people had with Leopard, so even OSX isn't completely free of issues.
      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    41. Re:MS tax by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      But since the OS is Suse, you still pay a Microsoft tax, am I right?
      Not exactly, in the MS Novell deal MS actually paid novell.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    42. Re:MS tax by petermgreen · · Score: 1

      There are a couple of issues with easy installation, none of them insurmountable but most of them tricky.

      the first is partitioning, you could of course make an installer that just wiped everything out and enforced it's preffered structure by default but many many people would complain if you did.

      the second and more significant one is the huge huge range of PC hardware out there. This makes it practically impossible for an OS vendor to test on every possible configuration of hardware and the OS vendor can only ship drivers for hardware they know about and have either written drivers for themselves or got suitable licenses in place to allow them to redistribute the manufacturers driver.

      --
      note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
    43. Re:MS tax by the_womble · · Score: 1

      Is it really that hard to install Linux? Jesus, man, you stick a live cd in there and click a couple of things. It's pretty damn important to understand formating drives, etc, and whatever basic stuff goes along with installing an OS.
      What proportion of users do you think understand that? There is no way the average person will ever learn. It would be nice if they did, but they will not. They will take any pre-installed OS over any that they have to install themselves.

      Incidentally they have all worked out how to do most of the admin tasks they need to. One is stuck on getting her laptops wif-fi working - but that defeated me as well. I am putting her in touch with someone better.

      Unless you think it's totally ok that your friends are defendant on you. You realize that, aside from these laptops, most Linux users don't get the kind of support Windows users have access to. They can't always find a friend to help, they can't go to Best Buy (no loss there, but...) and generally their vendor, ISP, etc, will not help them out.
      I have thought of that. The people I have installed Linux for so far live with a reasonable distance of a "Linux Center" set up by people from my local Linux User Group. They have to go slightly further than for Windows support, but they will get better quality support.

      They need to learn how to freaking install an OS. Just as everyone who drives needs to at least understand how to change oil, rotate and chance tires, etc, just so they don't get totally screwed because they are too dependant on others.
      People are more frightened of computers than of cars.
    44. Re:MS tax by tacocat · · Score: 1

      I can't very well use my laptop for development unless I have that localhost server+php and mail server.

      Specifically, if you try to configure postfix to be spam resistant, SuSE won't support it in the configuration meta files. And if you are a fan of Postgresql over MySQL you are also in a pickle. Of course, if you were doing any kind of development work, these configuration options would be pretty important. It gets even worse if you have to extend into the world of modules for your favoriate language

      If you plan to use the laptop as a email reader and news gatherer then you might consider getting an iPhone instead. Not only is it cheaper, but it's smaller, less expensive to purchase, and chicks dig it. Studies have shown that having an iPhone over a laptop makes you ten times more likely to get nookie.

    45. Re:MS tax by paulatz · · Score: 1

      I use my laptop, with opensuse, to develop first-principles solid state software. I am Italian, so I my favourite language is Italian, and I had never had a problem with internalization. And

      BTW I am not so stupid to spend the hideous quantity of money they want for an iPhone, my 40 Nokia already has a calendar. So I can spend the difference for drugs and holidays.

      --
      this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
  3. MS & Novell, sitin in a tree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Now remember kids. This is the Novell we're suppose to hate.

    1. Re:MS & Novell, sitin in a tree. by 0x000000 · · Score: 1

      Awwww, and here I was thinking about getting an Thinkpad. :-(

      Is there no other laptop besides the eee PC that is only sold with Linux on it?

      --
      cat /dev/null > .signature
    2. Re:MS & Novell, sitin in a tree. by Prod_Deity · · Score: 1

      Dell offers pretty decent laptops with Unbuntu preinstalled. I personally haven't picked one up yet, bit I might in the very near future.

    3. Re:MS & Novell, sitin in a tree. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Lenovo had an informal poll of their users about which Linux distribution they would like to see Lenovo implement.

      Votes were about 23,000 for Ubuntu and about 800 for SuSe.

      So, in an effort to listen to their customers, and make a success of Linux on Lenovo laptops, Lenovo have decided to offer ... WTF???

    4. Re:MS & Novell, sitin in a tree. by turgid · · Score: 1

      Lenovo have decided to offer ...

      ...the distro that Microsoft backs.

      --
      Stick Men
    5. Re:MS & Novell, sitin in a tree. by orkysoft · · Score: 1

      This whole thing is wildly inaccurate. Rounding errors, ballot stuffers, dynamic IPs, firewalls. If you're using these numbers to do anything important, you're insane.
      --

      I suffer from attention surplus disorder.
  4. Too late by elzurawka · · Score: 1

    So i bought a new Thinkpad T61 at the end of December. I guess its too late to change now. Maybe i can get them to drop the windows tax and send me a copy of Suse?
    Any one thing this is possible?

    --
    -EL
  5. MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Strange, that, how when Microsoft officially blesses a Linux distribution by investing in it and making all sorts of ridiculous patent/IP claims, a major PC manufacturer brings out a line of laptops with MS Linux. You can bet that Microsoft is making exactly the same amount of money on each Linux "sale" as each Windows sale, or maybe more.

    --
    Stick Men
    1. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by LingNoi · · Score: 1

      That doesn't really make sense, even if Microsoft were making money on a Linux sale it's going to hurt them in the long term.

    2. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 1

      Have you ever bought machines from Dell? Microsoft had them all sewn up too.

      --
      Stick Men
    3. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by Shohat · · Score: 1

      Don't count other people's money. What do you care how much they make off Linux

      --
      My Starcraft 2 Blog
    4. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I care about Microsoft trying to subvert Linux. I couldn't care less about the money per se, but I worry about the lies and FUD they're putting before the PHBs of this world. And the implied legal threats.

      --
      Stick Men
    5. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by whatevah · · Score: 0

      Nevertheless, somehow I find it strange that MS is going to benefit from that. Everyone says what a great
      experience is SLED, especially for the enterprise users. In the (not so)long run it benefits Linux as a whole.
      I say Kudos to Novell and SuSE.

    6. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by toppavak · · Score: 4, Informative

      I think your tin foil cap was on a little too tight today. There are a lot of practical reasons Lenovo would have chosen Suse for the thinkpads. Even before the MS deal, SLED was one of the distros IBM used to put through a compatibility certification program for thinkpads. SLED also comes with a lot of software explicitly for thinkpad-specific hardware. I know the fingerprint reader drivers and GUI were there the last time I tried OpenSuse, and I may be mistaken but I believe the HDAPS drivers were also pre-installed. I've tried installing these manually in Ubuntu and its a bitch. Suse distros in general have had superior thinkpad-specific hardware support.

    7. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 1

      Bait-and-switch, softening their anti-Free Software image, making claims regarding "giving permission" for SuSE/Novell customers to use the Microsoft intellectual property allegedly infringed by Linux, the implications for Linux in general, selling more Microsoft software to SuSE Linux shops.

      Mark my words, I was right about itanium and I'll be right about this too. The deal is fishy.

      --
      Stick Men
    8. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That has to be the stupidest comment i've read on slashdot in a long time. I guess you feel the same about Dell and Ubuntu. And it gets modded interesting, WTF?

    9. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 1

      Microsoft has traditionally always made sure that companies selling computers either only offer Windows or offer other operating systems that are substantially more expensive than Windows.

      For example, I used to buy servers and workstations from Dell for developing an operating systems which shall remain nameless. They wouldn't sell me machines without an OS "for piracy reasons" despite the fact we (at the time) were running our own OS and Linux. The price quotes with Linux instead of Windows were significantly more expensive. The Dell salesdroid said that "Linux is more expensive than Windows." I pointed out that this was just their agreement with Microsoft and that MS was not at liberty to make such conditions. He would have none of it, but gave me an enormous discount on Windows, which we never used.

      Microsoft had already been found guilty of running an illegal monopoly and the associated extortion in the USA.

      Look at what happened to Dell's recent attempt to sell Linux machines.

      I am very surprised that Lenovo is doing this. There must be something else going on behind the scenes.

      I can assure you that Microsoft is behind it. They are up to something.

      --
      Stick Men
    10. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by mooreti1 · · Score: 1

      You have got to be kidding? Did anyone, anyone at all, read the bloody agreement between MicroShaft and Novell? Anyone? No? Gee, what a friggin' surprise.

      The deal was regarding compatibility issues. It was a good thing in that it insured MS having to work with the OSS community to enable software to be at least somewhat compatible between platforms. It has, in some respects, worked. Also, it's important to remember that it was an agreement made due to a court case (http://www.groklaw.net/staticpages/index.php?page=20061218045851480) that MS and Novell were involved in and strictly came about because of patent squabbles.

      But who cares about the facts, right? It's just so much damn easier to assume that Novell sold their souls to the devil than to turn on the lights and read the small script. Geez..

      --
      Oh, for the days when sig's didn't have to be cute...hey, wait a sec.
    11. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thinkpad T61 has an option for webcam,
      this webcam does not have a linux driver,

      chip is 0c45:xxxx microdia with SN9C201 controller

      So you see its not really compatable

    12. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      One big old agenda for Linux over here

    13. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by paulatz · · Score: 1

      Maybe you should fill a tank truck with fertilizer and blow up MS headquarters in Seattle, or maybe you are taking it too much on yourself, mr. Ballmer will definitely not steal your girlfriend!

      --
      this post contain no useful information, no need to mod it down
    14. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 1

      Mr Ballmer is doing a grand enough job of destroying Microsoft in the long term. It's the next 5 years that could be difficult for the rest of us. Some of us have to work for PHBs to earn a living, and yes, I have taken my ball and gone home so to speak when the PHB gets too stupid.

      --
      Stick Men
    15. Re:MS-Blessed Linux by turgid · · Score: 1

      Add me to your list of nut-jobs and bookmark this thread. Come back to it in 6 months, a year and then 2 years.

      Then we'll see what the deal really was about.

      --
      Stick Men
  6. Good news by hubert.lepicki · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's good hardware, I was considering buying one (ThinkPad) but I couldn't get one off-the-shelf without Vista (in Poland). So I bought Acer laptop that came without Windows, it even had some crappy Linux pre installed (which I had to replace with some decent distribution). I guess that voice of consumers saying "We don't want Vista" is being finally heard at Lenovo's HQ. And Linux is nice alternative, _especially_ for business.

  7. Re:It's about $600 pricier than expected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    No point buying a machine which is vista capable and slap Linux on it instead.


    Yes there is, in fact there are two huge bonuses:

    1. Linux absolutely flies on a Vista-capable machine. Smokin.

    2. You don't have to run Vista on your nice machine.
  8. Overview of Laptops without "Microsoft-Tax" by wehe · · Score: 5, Informative

    Besides Lenovo there are some other manufacturers offering Linux without "Micorosoft-Tax" or even Linux pre-installed. Here is a (not yet complete) list of currently available laptops and notebooks without "Microsoft-Tax" at TuxMobil. If you need the features of a laptop which comes with Microsoft OS still, here are some tips and tricks to get a refund for the operating system from Redmond. And just in case you want to buy a laptop with a custom Linux installation, here is a survey of resellers.

    1. Re:Overview of Laptops without "Microsoft-Tax" by ceeam · · Score: 1

      Eees are missing.

  9. Dumping by mangu · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Folks see how much the OS costs in the store. But at the OEM level the OS costs are not that bad

    Then the real question is why do the OEMs get all that discount? Is that legal?


    OK, I could pay the cost of distribution and all that, but in the end that would be something like 20% of the total. Boxed software doesn't even come with printed manuals these days, and selling through internet stores reduces the overall retail expenses.

    1. Re:Dumping by oggiejnr · · Score: 3, Informative

      The reasons appear to be that in addition to the volumes that the large OEMs buy (which generate a discount in any industry), an OEM assumes all the support for any products they sell. If you buy a boxed copy then Microsoft is responsible for supplying support, if you get an OEM copy then the system builder is responsible.

    2. Re:Dumping by vux984 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      'OEM' is cheaper because:

      1) OEM is responsible for distribution and support. You buy a retail box, and you can call Microsoft for help. You buy a Dell... you call dell. (And if you bought sn OEM at newegg... call newegg for support.) Not that OEM support is worth anything, but its still a phone call MS doesn't have to try to answer.

      2) With OEM editions MS tries hard to bind the OS to the physical unit to effectively strip you of your right to resell or transfer the software. They 'require' that you put the sticker on the case, and the language in the EULA is more restrictive, etc. In any case its often more a PITA to exercise your rights with OEM Windows. When you pay retail, they don't get in your way nearly as much over stuff like this. No stickers. No fuss.

      3) Its been rumored, and im not sure if ever confirmed, that windows activation is less forgiving of OEM versions than retail. (in that OEM versions will require you to call microsoft for a manual activation in circumstances that the retail go through on automatic. (e.g. after a few transfers or hardware changes.) This being predicated on the logic that an OEM version doesn't get transferred, so it doesn't need as much leniency. If this is true, its not a big deal, but again, makes retail a little neater to deal with.

      ----

      I typically buy my Windows at Retail, in the upgrade edition, as its about as cheap as the OEM, without any of the OEM hassles. (And I have enough copies to qualify for upgrades.) And the upgrade edition typically just required the previous media. Not a big deal considering it knocked half the price off.

      For vista... what a Pain. The upgrade requires you actually install the previous edition then upgrade. (Makes sense from a certain point of view, given that iso's are trivial to obtain.) But its beyond stupid in practice. If my HD dies, I shouldn't have to install XP, before installing Vista.

      What happens in 2020... I buy a new PC and decide to transfer Windows 9 on it...and put Ubuntu Zippy Zebra on the old one, and I've been upgrading windows all along so now I have to install windows 8 on it first for the v9 installer to run... but to do that I have to install windows 7, and to do that I have to install windows Vista, and to that I have to install XP? Good luck installing XP on a new PC in 2020... will there even be XP drivers for the ultra-hddvd-bluray-3.0 drive I'll be installing with on the BIOS-free EFI-2-superZ.22/q based motherboard using an intel octo 4 hyper III-2 cpu?

      With Vista, at least there is a workaround, but its clearly an oversight on microsofts part. And I don't think it'll be their next time round.

      They ought to go the OSX route, lower the price of full retail... (almost NOBODY buys that anyway on windows), and get rid of the 'upgrade editions'.

    3. Re:Dumping by Peet42 · · Score: 1

      its clearly an oversight on microsofts part.


      No, it's clearly a deliberate part of their policy to make any activity that negatively affects the "bottom line" a complete PITA. Their shareholders are counting on you to replace your copy of Windows every two years and always pay full price for it.
    4. Re:Dumping by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      If I promise not to call Microsoft, can I get a discount too? Actually, I'd like a refund for all the tech support that I've done for family / friends / coworkers trying to get their computers working (or at least cleaned out).

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    5. Re:Dumping by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      he means that the workaround is an oversight

    6. Re:Dumping by vux984 · · Score: 1

      I was referring to the workaround that lets you install un upgrade edition of Vista, without installing XP first. That was clearly an oversight.

  10. Re:It's about $600 pricier than expected by JohnBailey · · Score: 1

    Yes there is, in fact there are two huge bonuses:

    1. Linux absolutely flies on a Vista-capable machine. Smokin.

    2. You don't have to run Vista on your nice machine. You forgot..

    3 Guaranteed Linux compatible hardware.

    So you are free to wipe Suse out and put your favorite Linux distro on it without having to worry about reduced functionality due to unsupported hardware.
    --
    It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
  11. I hope they do better than Dell ... by Godji · · Score: 4, Interesting

    ... and actually put Linux on some of their really good business-class machines, as opposed to their cheaper "entry-level" "home" flaky laptops. Write this down, Lenovo and Dell: I don't want Linux because it's cheap; I want it because it's better and free. Now give me that great laptop that a Windows user can already buy, put Linux on that instead, and you have my 1500 euros.

    That, or I'm getting an Eee.

    1. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by teslar · · Score: 1

      What exactly stops you from buying whatever laptop you want and installing Linux yourself? Given that you want a powerful laptop, wouldn't that be more consistent with your wishes than buying an Eee?

    2. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by BuR4N · · Score: 1

      I just hope they would put it on the X61(s) , that must be the ultimate laptop.

      --
      http://www.intellipool.se/ - Intellipool Network Monitor
    3. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by TeknoHog · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What exactly stops you from buying whatever laptop you want and installing Linux yourself? Given that you want a powerful laptop, wouldn't that be more consistent with your wishes than buying an Eee?

      It's important to signal that there is a market for Linux machines, when you think about device drivers for example. First of all, when you buy a Linux machine, you know that the devices will work with Linux, even if you install another distro. More importantly, this sends a message to the hardware makers that mostly write Windows-only drivers.

      --
      Escher was the first MC and Giger invented the HR department.
    4. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by mgblst · · Score: 1

      I thought the same, but they are huge, monstrous machines, nothing like the sleep T43, t42s.

    5. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by Seto89 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'll tell you what - hardware support.

      I recently bought ThinkPad R61, and although most of the hardware worked out of the box, I still after quite a few hours didn't get the wifi to work.
      Also, the fingerprint reader is a true nightmare - even after finding free Linux driver I find out that it's a bit different model and thus returns "USB device not found" every time I want to use it.
      That and oh, also the graphics driver doesn't seem to work so you have to force it to install a different driver that says it's incompatible with this model.

      These problems wouldn't be as big if at lenovo.com at product support they offered more than 2 Linux patches...

      --
      There are two kinds of people - those who are radioactive and those who have already decayed..
    6. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by linj · · Score: 2, Informative

      and actually put Linux on some of their really good business-class machines, as opposed to their cheaper "entry-level" "home" flaky laptops.


      The ThinkPad, de facto, is term used by Lenovo to demarcate their business-class machines. "Home" laptops are sold purely under the Lenovo brand.

      Hope that helps; cheers.
    7. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by drolli · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > What exactly stops you from buying whatever laptop you want and installing Linux yourself?

      Support. I know linux, i work with linux, i can install it myself, but however, since i am working as a pysicist it is not my job to do so. I want to buy a computer and problems should be solved by calling the support.

    8. Re:I hope they do better than Dell ... by MojoStan · · Score: 1

      I hope they do better than Dell ...
      [snip]
      ... and actually put Linux on some of their really good business-class machines, as opposed to their cheaper "entry-level" "home" flaky laptops. I'm not sure if you count Dell's Precision workstations as "business-class," but they do offer Red Hat Enterprise Linux pre-installed on several workstations (desktop and mobile). Note that the ThinkPads use an "enterprise-grade" Linux OS (like Dell's Precisions) while Dell's cheaper Linux laptops use the free-as-in-beer Ubuntu OS with less included support.

      The Precisions ain't cheap, but the cheaper ones can be considered "high end" business-class machines. For example:

      --
      TO START
      PRESS ANY KEY

      Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...

  12. Branding is extremely important by LingNoi · · Score: 4, Insightful

    and what would have happened if Dell went all out putting Linux on the front page, only selling Linux machines no MS Windows and it was a failure? There's another ten years of "Linux Sucks" right there.

    No. Dell did the right thing by slowly growing their Linux desktop market and now everyone is copying them.

    Branding matters a lot.

    It's the reason Microsoft runs it's Get the facts campaign against Linux. Having Linux associated with big brands that people have heard of increases your chance of people picking your product. It doesn't matter that Linux runs on the top 8 super computers of the world because people will make judgements based of how familiar they are with a product.

    This is why Ubuntu is more popular then other distributions, because Mark S. has associated Ubuntu with larger brands. More people know about Ubuntu and are more likely to pick it compared to another distributions. A lot of people here on /. grumble about "Why Noobuntu, why not try X". Well now you know, if distribution X had better branding it would probably be more popular then Ubuntu.

    Another branding example..

    Have you noticed recently how "Windows Server" adverts keep popping up on websites such as top500.org, sourceforge, etc? Places that decision makers might see them, but also developers. Sourceforge in particular seems to have tons of Microsoft adverts that it is starting to put me off visiting that website at all.

    1. Re:Branding is extremely important by turing_m · · Score: 5, Insightful

      "This is why Ubuntu is more popular then other distributions, because Mark S. has associated Ubuntu with larger brands."

      As someone who actually uses Ubuntu and has in the past used (trying some extensively, some still in use) such Linuxen as PCLinuxOS, puppy, DSL, SUSE, CentOS, Mepis, and probably a few others I forget, I think I'm qualified to say that the difference is not just in the branding. I've also developed nothing in Ubuntu nor hold any financial interest in its success. I have used it solely for about 6 months and the last time I booted my XP HDD for any reason was at least 4 months ago. And I really didn't want to like it because of the ugly default shit brown theme, the name and icon seemed like something more appropriate to a Michael Jackson music video than an operating system, and just because it was too popular already. But in the end I succumbed.

      Ubuntu succeeds because it is amazingly polished and stable compared to other linux distributions, with a focus on the newbie and a shockingly vast array of software in the repositories that Just Works. No one uses an OS to use an OS, they use an OS for their favorite applications.

      If you want help, you are more likely to find success through googling ubuntuforums.org or posting there yourself. This is because the forums are moderated in a specifically newbie friendly fashion where RTFM is banned.

      http://ubuntuforums.org/index.php?page=policy

      And now network effect is reinforcing the utility of Ubuntu. Basically anything FOSS gets a concerted effort to put it in the repos if it is any good, or a howto gets written for it. And any hardware has someone using Ubuntu having a hack at it to get it to go first.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
    2. Re:Branding is extremely important by Cato · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Branding has little to do with Ubuntu's success - it is generally polished, and easy to set up on most systems. The solid Debian based, attention to usability, huge array of software in the repositories, and the very newbie-friendly forums are key too. Also, the sheer volume of people using Ubuntu now means that the forums have solutions for most common problems already written up, and the response time to questions on forums is generally very good.

    3. Re:Branding is extremely important by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I agree, but only in part. Mandrake back in their day offered much of the same. An easy OS, that would allow "cool" features like taking Windows fonts from another Windows partition, a decked-out control panel with many more GUI front-ends than the other guys, and a nice friendly active community with specific information and doing specific tasks.

      I switched to Debian to get past the dependency-hell issues that urpmi never totally fixed. I then switched to knoppix and kanotix for a while instead of Mepis like many others. Finally, I ended up at Ubuntu because packages and installing software is KING in my world. At this point, I care little for default themes and other superficial stuff. If I want to install something, even a small game with a small following, lets say, I want to be able to easily install it without issue.

      Many people have made similar progressions over the years. Ubuntu will be my distro of choice until something better comes out. I see nothing extremely superior about Ubuntu per se. Other distros have been "on top", have had some features which rivaled Windows of the day in terms of ease of use, etc. (remember when Caldera was said to be the easiest OS to install ever on any platform? It's not as if NOW we finally have a desktop linux that 'works'. What makes linux 'work' is hardware support - that has improved, but this has almost nothing to do with particular distros.

      And yeah, that brown theme is uglay like the neck wobble on Janet Reno. I don't ever see it myself except in screenshots as I'm a KDE and XFCE fiend, depending on which crate I'm using and like I said, superficial stuff doesn't bother and is very easy to fix/change.

    4. Re:Branding is extremely important by turing_m · · Score: 1

      "I see nothing extremely superior about Ubuntu per se. Other distros have been "on top", have had some features which rivaled Windows of the day in terms of ease of use, etc."

      I probably exaggerated saying that it was extremely polished _compared_ to other linux distros. There is not a lot of difference in usability between say, that and PCLinuxOS for example. But there was enough to notice. That last 10% of polish does take a lot more than 10% of the total work.

      As you say, the difference is in the repos. Ubuntu has finally solved the "one click install" thing in a way that is not just as good as, but superior to the way XP does things. With XP, the process (for a lot of people) involves looking for something free first (freeware or pirated), praying that it is not infected with malware, then clicking setup.exe. With ubuntu the research process is very similar but there are no issues about malware and you know that if it's in the repos, it's free.

      I think that due to network effect, other linux distros will have an increasingly tough time dislodging existing ubuntu users. It's also at the point where I feel very little frustration with things on a day to day level. This makes it tough to change - it means migrating all my data, applications and modifications to those applications. I'm essentially where I used to be with XP minus the frustration at all the malware issues.

      "What makes linux 'work' is hardware support - that has improved, but this has almost nothing to do with particular distros."

      True. I suppose another factor in the adoption of linux in general is that a person can comfortably run it with a fairly low end P4 - some 5 years old. By this time, that hardware is well and truly supported but the original XP installation is usually well and truly hosed with malware. That was a lot less true back in the Mandrake days. So I think Ubuntu has come along at the right time.

      It also helps that openoffice is now usable, which has little to do with Ubuntu.

      --
      If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
  13. 20 bucks? by rastoboy29 · · Score: 0, Troll

    Does that mean MS only charges $20 per license to OEM's?

    I'd say that was a fair price for Windows.

    --
    expandfairuse.org
    1. Re:20 bucks? by JohnConnor · · Score: 3, Informative

      > Does that mean MS only charges $20 per license to OEM's?

      No that's not what it means because SLED 10 is not cost free. In fact it is more expensive than Windows because it carries a yearly subscription price tag of $50. Add it up over the 5 or 6 years that Windows Vista will last and I don't think that you will find that SLED is cheaper. Of course it includes more than the OS, as do all Linux distros, and it guarantees that the machine is well supported by Linux, so well worth the initial cost. SLED is a really good enterprise desktop, and it makes sense to keep it for business. For personal use I would replace SLED by openSuse and get the same hardware compatibility and a more modern OS with extra features.

    2. Re:20 bucks? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      Sorry, but Microsoft would have to pay me to take Windows.

    3. Re:20 bucks? by Hucko · · Score: 1

      In fact it is more expensive than Windows because it carries a yearly subscription price tag of $50. Add it up over the 5 or 6 years that Windows Vista will last and I don't think that you will find that SLED is cheaper.
      Except, that with SLED you will have a new version with security exploits patched. I believe SUSE's version turnaround is about 3 years? That is only $150.
      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
  14. Re:It's about $600 pricier than expected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You fucking douchebag. Do you know what the specs on this machine are?

  15. Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by mcalwell · · Score: 1

    Given Ubuntu's good track record on Thinkpads, and IBM's commercial product support for Ubuntu, it's an odd choice.

    1. Re:Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by Superken7 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Well, i think this has nothing to do with IBM, since they sold all their PC business to Lenovo.

    2. Re:Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by mcalwell · · Score: 1

      Whilst that is true, they maintain a strong role in Lenovo, and Thinkpads still go under the IBM brand.

    3. Re:Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by Grampaw+Willie · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      who is "Ubuntu"? chief of a cannibal tribe? tee hee

    4. Re:Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well, given SUSE's good track record on Thinkpads and IBM's commercial product support for SUSE it's a logical choice.

    5. Re:Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by Hucko · · Score: 1

      the name approximates more closely with the Eloi.

      --
      Semi-automatic amateur armchair Australian philosopher; conjecture ready at any moment...
    6. Re:Odd, given IBM's support for Ubuntu by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thinkpads still go under the IBM brand.
      I don't think so. I've got a Thinkpad here and haven't noticed a single IBM logo on it or on any brochures/manuals.
  16. Re:It's about $600 pricier than expected by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

    You fucking anonymous coward. The same machine is capable of running Windows Vista Premium aka Media Center. That should tell you enough about the specs.

    Linux hardly needs even 25% of the specs that Vista takes to boot up.

  17. What people ignore by kaiwai · · Score: 1

    What people ignore is this; the issue isn't so much the idea of Linux pre-installed (which is important) but the OEM's actually offering choice to the customer; that the OEM ensures that when they assemble their machines they don't design the machine in such a way that it virtually makes it a 'Windows only machine'. That is the issue.

    Yes, offer Linux pre-installed, but at the same time, offer me the ability to say, "no, I don't want an operating system at all, I just want the laptop, and I'll obtain an operating system of choice through my own means" - in my case, something like OpenSolaris or a *BSD of some flavour.

    Respect the consumers right to choose :)

  18. Linux? Cool. but let's add real security by Grampaw+Willie · · Score: 1

    "computer security" is the laughing stock of the world

    I am hoping that as some of these new systems come out, based on Linux, or perhaps Solaris x.86 that the makers will delete the concept of remote updates to software

    yep, I said delete that bad idea

    download is OK, but after the download customer needs a chance to review what the material is, check signatures, etc and decide whether he wants to update his machine or not

    NO SIGNATURE? NO EXECUTE.

    It's time to get serious about security before something bad happens. And I think maybe IBM might be just the outfit that could do it. Let's resurrect RACF and set it up for Linux ( maybe Solaris! )

    I really like that Solaris x.86 -- which is real unix instead of a substitute.

    C'mon IBM, Let's Rock!

  19. small ThinkPads please! by wikinerd · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    14-inch-wide notebooks

    Good for aeroplanes I suppose, but still not small enough.

    Small is good. For me, I prefer carrying 3.5-5" PDAs and 9-12" subnotebooks. And even 12" is already too big. What I realy want is a robust ThinkPad with modern technology at or below 12".

    What can you do on a small screen? Well, lots of things. What you lose in screen size you gain it three times in productivity thanks to flexibility in using your machine anywhere you want. I use my PDA (HTC Universal) and my 8.9" Flybook while walking, for example. This means that I am productive at times that other people aren't, which increases my earning power. Many showstopping software bugs were fixed and important emails have been written while I was walking down the street. It also helps me stay fit (and also increase my knowledge, I even read books while walking).

    What can you do with a laptop that you can use only on a desk? Not much. And while you use it your spine suffers unless you have a very good ergonomic office. Now imagine being able to work while hiking in nature or while standing in line at the bank. You have no desk in these situations (except by luck, for example I have found a nice place where I go hiking and it has some rocks at the right configuration that they behave just like a desk! but this is rare), and yet with a subnotebook you can work just as well. The associated time savings add up over time and you can soon find that your typical day has not 24 but 32 or 48 hours in it.

    Doing this with 15.4" laptops isn't easy (I have tried it, with a ThinkPad!). What mobile nomad technology professionals and other very busy persons need is a small subnotebook, smaller than 12" (a perfect size I think is between 7" and 9"), equipped with the right pointing device controls and other features to allow use while walking or standing (Flybook for example has a nice trackpoint at the correct location and a cord to secure your subnotebook to your arm in case it is about to fall down). PDAs are good for short emails, viewing documents, quickly testing something in Python or quickly SSHing to your server, but they aren't good for serious work (this may change with HTC Shift, however). So what we really need is subnotebooks at the right size to keep them with our hands in front of us while walking. And they should be GNU/Linux-compatible (who wants to work with Windows? Debian lenny with some tweaking is great for me) and have USB ports so that we can connect 3G Internet modems (or incorporated GSM/HSDPA modules like Flybook, but I have found USB ports a bit easier for setting them up in GNU/Linux). That's what technomads want.

    The current subnotebook offerings by other manufacturers are not really very robust, and many have various problems with GNU/Linux. A robust GNU/Linux-compatible ThinkPad at small dimensions would be great. How could Lenovo ignore this important market?

    1. Re:small ThinkPads please! by wikinerd · · Score: 1

      note: X60/X61 is good but actually it is a smaller one which is greatly needed, and the problem with X60/X61 is that its trackpoint is located at the centre of the keyboard rather than at the top right or top left position which is the position that the pointing device needs to be for effective use while walking (that's how Flybook has it).

    2. Re:small ThinkPads please! by rantingkitten · · Score: 1

      Now imagine being able to work while hiking in nature ... what we really need is subnotebooks at the right size to keep them with our hands in front of us while walking ... I have found a nice place where I go hiking and it has some rocks at the right configuration that they behave just like a desk ...

      Has it occured to you that there might be more to life than just working and worrying about your "earning power"?

      --
      mirrorshades radio -- darkwave, industrial, futurepop, ebm.
  20. Can you elaborate on this? by argent · · Score: 1

    What exploits have automated updates, initiated by the software being updated, enabled?

    1. Re:Can you elaborate on this? by Grampaw+Willie · · Score: 1

      unless you are living under a rock or in an Old West Saloon you know that hackers have been taking advantage of various "exploits" to "inject" their "malware" into victims' computers

      and that every month MS sends out new patches -- but the problem goes on, and on and on and on

      to the point where any credibility for MS is equal to ZILCH.

      some kind of intervention is required to fix this,-- 3d party product maybe IBM can make a RACF for the promiscuous Ms. Windows -- or as an industry we might shift to Linux or maybe x.86 Solaris

      something is going to change: we cannot conduct business over the net when there are RATS invading our systems at will

    2. Re:Can you elaborate on this? by argent · · Score: 1

      You didn't answer my question.

      You answered a different question, that's superficially similar, but not one that supports the argument that automated updates themselves are a security problem. Automatic updates cause a lot of problems, yes, and I would rather Microsoft backed away from them... but unless you know of a specific attack vector that they enable then focussing on them is ignoring the underlying problems and stopping them won't fix the underlying problems.

      The biggest systematic design flaws in Windows are, in no particular order:

      (1) The lack of the ability to control the interfaces that services are directly bound to, because services can not be run from a UNIX style superserver (like inetd, xinetd, tcpwrapper, or tcpserver) and so they can not be systematically re-bound to ONLY the interface that they need to use, nor is there (as a result) a tradition that services NOT run from a superserver also have the ability to control bindings. The result of this is that a firewall, which provides a second layer of protection (defense in depth) on UNIX systems, is the only layer between an untrusted network and a service.

      (2) Wrapping a non-IP network protocol under TCP/UDP in a way that multiple services are exposed at the same TCP/UDP port via different addresses (named pipes) in the wrapped protocol. This means that opening up any of these services in a layer 3 packet filter opens up all of them.

      (3) Integrating the Internet and the desktop in a way that puts the security model under the HTML control rather than under the application, so the HTML control has to use ad-hoc security zones updated as (inevitably) holes are found in the zone model to decide on the rights that objects will be granted.

      (4) The use of an insecure API to pass a set of parameters to applications, whereby programmers have to guess how other applications (outside their control, and often written after the fact) will parse quotes to securely pass parameters to applications.

      (5) The use of a single set of application bindings for helper applications, whether the binding is used by an application displaying internal content generated directly by components that already have local execute rights (and are therefor trusted) or by an application displaying untrusted content.

      (6) The lack of a formal system call API. Instead of having a small set of fixed system calls that can in principle be verified not to expose internal OS APIs, the equivalent of system calls are made via arbitrary call gates.

      Of these flaws, only #s 5 and 6 have equivalents in any other currently used desktop OS, and the exposure from #5 is significantly lower outside Windows.

      Fixing these problems should be given far greater priority than automatic updates.

  21. Two questions... by Qubit · · Score: 2, Insightful

    1. Where's the link to a current press release from Lenovo or from Novell/SuSE? The article doesn't share any links, and when I looked on both companies' sites all I could find were old press releases.

    2. Why SuSE? Did Lenovo somehow broker an unbeatable deal on support contracts, or... ?

    While googling for more news on the current development, I found an old Lenovo blog entry from September of 2007 asking "What Linux distribution would you most like to see supported on a ThinkPad?". Now I'm sure that every kind of online poll has some amount of ballot-stuffing, but out of the 64572 responses, 37% chose Ubuntu, 17% chose Mandrivia, and (much farther down the list) a mere 5% chose SuSE, SLED, or OpenSuSE. SLED got only 312 votes, giving it less than 0.5% of the votes.

    As unscientific as the poll was, the author of the blog admitted in the lead-up to the poll that he figured that he needed to try out Ubuntu and that he was pretty sure what linux distribution was going to be chosen. So with all this user interest in Ubuntu, why did Lenovo go the Novell/SuSE route?

    Oh well -- as long as the Thinkpad hardware is fully supported by some modern Linux distro, I figure that Ubuntu should have no problems supporting it.

    --

    coding is life /* the rest is */
    1. Re:Two questions... by binaryspiral · · Score: 1

      Lenovo and IBM were working with Novell for a long time in bringing this to market. The belief here is that some of the laptops in a corporate environment would be running SuSE which could still be a part of the corporate windows domain. I couldn't locate a press release either, so I wonder how much truth is in this story.

      I also think Lenovo is smart about keeping Ubuntu off their corporate laptops for now, they look at Ubuntu as being a consumer Linux distribution where SuSE is geared for the corporate environment. Just because some poll was stuffed by the ubuntu mob, I don't think either is better than the other. It's just like anything else in this world - right tool for the right job.

  22. Re:It's about $600 pricier than expected by Antique+Geekmeister · · Score: 1

    This is not necessarily true. Laptop drivers for their power control and especially pointing devices are often painful to integrate into both Windows and Linux operating systems. By pre-bundling the OS, we know that Lenovo has worked out those issues in advance and included whatever modified drivers or software components are necessary. I've run into these issues with high-end RAID controllers in the server world, and lots of us who've provided Linux systemns for our workplaces have run into it with NVidia or older video chipsets in the graphics world.

  23. They do both by Per+Abrahamsen · · Score: 1

    There really aren't any cheap laptops sold under the Thinkpad brand, but the R series is their "everyday" brand, while the T series is their "performance". The R61 and T61 models are probably their two top sellers.

    I prefer the X series (their 12" models), but it is not as common as the óther two. It is also both slower and more expensive.

  24. Re:SuSe is an excellent distro by maxwell+demon · · Score: 1

    I can't imagine how the quality of SUSE could in any way depend on the amount of melanin in your skin.

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  25. Re:It's about $600 pricier than expected by maxwell+demon · · Score: 0, Troll

    It's SUSE ("Nuremberg Windows") we are talking about here. A 10.2 default install managed to make my dual core Athlon 64 barely usable (one core was 100% busy running zmd, the other one was 100% busy running beagle, of course both at nice 0).

    --
    The Tao of math: The numbers you can count are not the real numbers.
  26. good fit by Heem · · Score: 1

    FWIW, they've been using this combination of software and hardware inside Novell for years.

    --
    Don't Tread on Me
  27. Where's the IPS(Flexview) screens, first of all? by sethstorm · · Score: 0

    It's fine that they've loaded that on there, but I doubt that any of those models are equipped with Flexview(the highest quality display that can be had for now). There may be attempts to imitate it, but there's nothing that they have so far that comes close.

    It's one of the things that made a Thinkpad (for having it available). It doesn't matter much on what software is shipped, but the hardware faces you every day.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
  28. Who cares? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We have different standards in hardware. Personally, I think all Thinkpads have been crap since Lenovo took over.

    Bundling SuSE with it is just another reason to avoid this junk. I can get a better laptop for far less. With better Linux support.

  29. Attention T61 buyers!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Lenovo made a recent change to the T61 model Thinkpads that is probably not known to the mass public. Lenovo changed the skeleton frame of the T61's to a ceramic compressed mold. Unfortunately there is a defect in the mold. The ceramic frame for the display is warped in such a way that a bulge is produced on the exterior casing of the display half. It's more cosmetic than anything, but on the latest T61 that my department purchased, it was more pronounced than the 3 other T61's we've purchased ofver the last 6 months.

    This change in frame design was told to me by a Lenovo tech who I'd called in to fix the issue, which there is really no fix for... Like I said, it's more cosmetic than anything, but when you can turn the laptop on its top, and spin it freely cause of the bulge, you know something isn't quite right.

    On another note, Lenovo has made some hardware quality changes to their T61's, that anyone with a T series laptop older than a year would recognize right off. The display latching mechanism is considerably more flimsy and you feel you'll break it if you open it to many times or close it to fast.

    We have 10 Thinkpads in my department and we love the hardware. If things like construction design and workmanship start to degrade, it'll make us think twice about using them. We put those laptops through use and abuse and once the quality design starts to degrade, we'll look elsewhere for the same spec's.

  30. Re:SuSe is an excellent distro by BlackPignouf · · Score: 1

    Too bad there's no "-5 Asshole" moderation!

  31. Re:Where's the IPS(Flexview) screens, first of all by Mad+Merlin · · Score: 1

    Last I checked, they were phasing out the Flexview screens at about the same rate as their 4:3 screens. Supposedly their suppliers don't produce either anymore, so we're stuck with trashy widescreen monitors everywhere. I haven't been following it that closely though, as I've got a T60 with a 1400x1050 Flexview screen already.

    --
    Game! - Where the stick is mightier than the sword!
  32. Re:SuSe is an excellent distro by mooreti1 · · Score: 1

    Aww, look, the Anonymous Coward has an idiot opinion to share! Wait, speak slowly, moron, so that we can understand you.

    --
    Oh, for the days when sig's didn't have to be cute...hey, wait a sec.
  33. Lenovo T61p by Nonillion · · Score: 1

    I have the Lenovo T61p with the WUXGA (1920x1200) screen and I'm running openSuSE 10.3 (64_bit version). There were some initial problems with the video (blank video after install) but it has been working fine. Mine has the NVIDIA 570M video card and the Atheros wireless chipset. Once I got the NVIDIA driver and Atheros WiFi drivers installed everything "just worked". The only other thing not working at the moment is the phone modem. I have since then stripped the 'Windows XP' sticker off and completely wiped the hard drive of the previous OS. It's refreshing to see another OS option except Windows XP or Windows Vista as the list of shipped OS's.

    Lenovo T61p
    2GB RAM
    100GB 7200 RPM HD
    Intel 2.2GHz Core 2 Duo
    15.4" WUXGA (1920x1200)
    openSuSE 10.3 x86_64

    --
    "I bow to no man" - Riddick
  34. No GCC. AARrrggh!! by saisuman · · Score: 1

    In SuSE, gcc is not installed by default, and is not even on their online repository. What good is a laptop that doesn't have gcc?

  35. Re:Linux? Cool. but let's add real security by pedestrian+crossing · · Score: 1

    NO SIGNATURE? NO EXECUTE.

    Hmmm, like this perhaps? Debian has implemented integrity-checking of updates for quite some time now...

    --
    A house divided against itself cannot stand.
  36. Props to Suse by timtimtim2000 · · Score: 0

    Good for Suse. It's nice to see Suse getting some love. I've been running openSuse 10.3 on an older IBM T40 Thinkpad and my mythtv box for a few months. Both machines ran so well that all my roommates have installed it on their machines. I've really enjoyed the distro. I must say that YaST package management has gotten a lot better since when I ran openSuse 9.2 back in the day.

    Hopefully, this will increase exposure to Suse and make the OS I like even better.

  37. Why only 20 bucks less!? by AndGodSed · · Score: 1

    Just wondering. Vista is expensive, and now a linux distro on my laptop saves me 20 bucks? Obviously ignoring the other advantages here...

    --

    Seven Days with Ubuntu Unity

  38. Yep, I know. That's why I still have a T42p. by sethstorm · · Score: 1

    Before this gets modbombed as well(Apparently someone decided to doubly modbomb me with all their points across a few articles)...

    Right now, the highest IPS equipped model you can get that is still common is the 2623DDU.

    The only good thing Lenovo has done is remove the exclusivity to their Reserve Edition, the rest is iffy at best.

    --
    Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.