Slashdot Mirror
Leaked Government Doc Reveals UK ID "Coercion" Plans
BoingBoing is relating a hair-raising tale from the UK anti-ID-register group 'NO2ID' that claims to have a leaked government document [PDF] detailing how the UK government plans to "coerce" citizens into a national ID register. "UK campaigners NO2ID this morning enlisted the help of bloggers across the world to spread a leaked government document describing how the British government intends to go about "coercing" its citizens onto a National Identity Register. The 'ID card' is revealed as little more than a cover to create a official dossier and trackable ID for every UK resident - creating what NO2ID calls 'the database state'."
Big Brother was British, wasn't he?
In shades of 1984 , the report came from a new UK government agency called the Ministry of Privacy.
Perfect opportunity to set up a few convenient aliases--with all the work that they'll be getting, the folks registering will likely not pay quite as much attention as they ought to new registrants. Voila, government-approved IDs, guaranteed to pass any test for fakes.
Of course, getting past the initial screening may not be trivial--but investigation into that avenue may be worthwhile.
In Xanadu did Kubla Khan
A stately pleasure dome decree
Boingboing is already down... they haven't got to the PDF yet so if that goes down I shall redistribute it. See you all it Gitmo.
If we can put a man on the moon, why can't we shoot people for Apollo-related non-sequiturs?
...I have a leaked Slashdot document revealing the Slashdot just got bought by Amazon.com... it's going to become the online tech news marketplace. It's real, man. CowboyNeal signed it himself. You can't read it, though... I... uh... it's... [CONNECTION TERMINATED]
I'm waiting for a "-1 somepeoplejustshouldn'tgetmodprivileges" meta-moderation.
Boingboing appears to be down; I get "connection reset." Here's the NO2ID group's homepage. Relevant searches on Google/Google News will probably turn up more information of interest than Boing Boing's shoot-from-the-hip sensationalism, anyway.
Please help metamoderate.
Well I'm already trackable as an individual through my social security number. How is this any worse than that?
There's a noticeable lack of authorship details. It notes that various government departments have "contributed to" the options analysis, but I read that as simply saying that people from those departments have been interviewed in the course of performing this analysis.
Does anybody know who actually produced this report? I'd hardly call the government a bunch of liars for opinions expressed in a report produced by outside contractors, but without any reason to believe otherwise, that's what this sounds like to me.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
Since these ID's will be "official" for just about anything ...
Find someone involved in issuing them who has a gambling / drug / sex / whatever problem who can be bought / blackmailed.
The whole system breaks down when it depends upon the honesty of people.
One of the problems when we have ID cards is that some people are going to break solidarity with the rest of us by getting one and it will be arranged that they get benefits from it. I wonder if we could have a campaign where we ask people for ID and refuse to serve or help them if they show national ID cards. It would have to start with a gentle campaign where they are just given some information and told not to show their ID card again, but after that it could be quite effective. Can this be done without alienating people? It would definitely be worth it. Something to change the equation so that the kind of people who refuse to think beyond their next fish supper can see a benefit from refusing ID.
I'd LOVE to have a 'database society' - as long as I was in control of all my own information. It could be certified for accuracy by a trusted outside party, and I'd have to authorize every query and could control the scope of information allowed to be seen. Any unauthorized query would be a punishable offense, any duplicate uncertified. An unworkable pipe dream of sci-fi proportions, no doubt.
Be warned that the same effort is underway in the US through a push for the RealID legislations with the same sinister goals in mind.
Liberty.
The database will be written in MSAccess and kept on someones hard drive until it crashes.
Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
It looks like requiring this ID in order to get a passport is one of the options they are considering to "encourage" people to get this ID. At least, that's what I'm getting from a combination of the article and the image above it. What are the other options that are being considered, who is throwing these options up for consideration and how much weight is being given to them? I think a public outcry against these options are a pretty good way to send a message to the UK government.
Why is "coercion" in quotes? Coercion is the business of government. Government is, after all, the organization holding a monopoly on the special right to employ coercion as a business model. Coercion is what defines government.
Put it this way: If the people actually volunteered to hand over their money and follow the aribtrary rules set forth by a central committee, then government would be entirely redundant. The reason why government exists is precisely because the people would not voluntarily hand over their money and follow that arbitrary set of rules.
Again, coercion is the fundamental tool which all governments MUST hold -- otherwise it ain't government.
the book of revelations comes to mind and something about accepting the mark of the beast. could that be as simple as a db entry? you know that religous right fanatics should have a field day with this if it were to be tried here...then again...if their ministers tell them there's no harm, then they'll all go quietly.
Is it 5:30 yet?
This is the British Government we're talking about. They have shown themselves, time and time again, to be completely incapable of completing any IT project. Every time they try, they award the contract to EDS, it goes horrendously over-budget and ends up being cancelled. Expect the big brother database to go online some time around 2050, only be able to store first names, and crash losing all data the first time someone tries to run a query.
I am TheRaven on Soylent News
It's the only way. And don't think that the Conservatives aren't planning the same sort of thing. Remember that old saying about power corrupting?
"Life is pain Highness. Anyone who says otherwise is selling something"
Westly, The Princess Bride
You think a revolution is going to help? Replacing one government with another is only a temporary reprieve. Once the generation that dragged the last batch of tyrants to the guillotine dies off, people will forget what happened and grow complacent. They'll go back to saying "there ought to be a law" every time something doesn't go the way they think it should, and a new bunch of tyrants will corrupt the new government. Every revolution, even the American revolution of 1776, is a case of "Meet the New Boss, same as the Old Boss".
Go ahead and have your revolution. Found a new government on the ashes of the old. Swear in a new parliament while the heads of the old rot on pikes. It won't help you for long. You will get fooled again.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
...the Fifth of November....
Here's a link to the documents the government prefer you not to know about.
http://www.wikileaks.org/wiki/National_Identity_Scheme_Options_Analysis_Outcome
Take Nobody's Word For It.
I think I have a new winner for the "Most Offensive Thing I've Read on Slashdot" award. It's so offensive, I'm not actually offended.
I don't see what all the fuss is about, with your outrage over the national/real/whatever ID. We have a national ID here in Mexico and it's actually quite useful.
You See! This is exactly why we need a comprehensive government ID system. Then we'd KNOW who wrote that report. I can't wait until we can all just sit around tracking each other, then we'll finally all be happy and safe!
http://vancouvercondo.info
-
The American revolution may have bought a few decades, but can you say the same for the Russian Revolution that overthrew Tsar Nicholas II and was hijacked by Lenin and his Bolsheviks? How much time did the guillotining of Louis XVI and his noblemen buy for the French before Robespierre took over and imposed his Terror? I stand by my opinion that overthrowing a government and replacing it with a new one only sows the seeds of tyranny anew. The seeds germinate and grow faster in some countries than they do in others, that's all.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
"Out of all men that beg for a chance to drill your lots, maybe one in twenty will be oilmen; the rest will be speculators-men trying to get between you and the oilmen-to get some of the money that ought by rights come to you. Even if you find one that has money, and means to drill, he'll maybe known nothing about drilling and he'll have to hire out the job on contract, and then you're depending on a contractor that's trying to rush the job through so he can get another contract just as quick as he can. That is the way this works."
"What is your offer? We're wasting time."
"I do my own drilling and the men that work for me, work for me and they are men I know. I make it my business to be there and see to their work. I don't lose my tools in the hole and spend months fishing for them; I don't botch the cementing off and let water in the hole and ruin the whole lease. I'm a family man- I run a family business. This is my son and my partner, H.W. Plainview. [indicates H.W] I'm fixed like no other company in this field and that's because Rukia is cuter than Orihime.
After reading the PDF (I know it is against /. rules...) I have two questions:
1. Where can I sign up for the US version
2. Can the US integrate out system into theirs??? That would only help to protect us all!!!
I mean, after all, I am looking for all of the following:
1. I want to know that I have the right to be here
2. I want to know who you "really" are
3. I want to join a service that meet my needs
4. I want to be able to prove who I am
P.S. I want to point out my sarcasm, as my last few posts like this labeled me as a troll. Also, it is pointless to resist. Most everyone I know is willing to voluntarily sign up for department and grocery store "point cards" to save ~%5.....
Heck, after 9/11, most people I knew said they were willing to give up thier civil rights in order to protect us from the terrorists... even if they did not know what those rights were...
Stories like this make me real glad I live in New Hampshire, one of only 6 US States that actually opted out of "Real-ID".
Videos of the protests we had against Real-ID are pretty cool.
Part of the Second American Revolution!
I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt, I think you're joking around and vigorously oppose a 'big brother database.'
Others however, say 'who cares, the government is incompetent' and are serious. Those people are misguided at best...total idiots at worst.
If an incompetent carjacker was pointing a loaded gun at you, would you just go about your business and ignore him? Of course not. If something poses a legitimate threat to your freedom or safety, you take it seriously no matter how competent or incompetent you think the perpetrators are.
This policy by the British ID system/database (and its inevitable US counterpart) is going to flush freedom down the toilet. Ironically, when the government overreacts to terrorist threats and takes away freedoms...THE TERRORISTS WIN.
Thank you Dave Raggett
I agree with you concerning the Framers' reasons for including the Second Amendment. However, I have to ask you why you think that simply overthrowing an oppressive government and replacing it will do any long-term good? Do you think that leading Congress to the guillotine will work in a country where most people, thanks to public education, think that consistent respect for individual rights means leaving poor people to starve to death in the streets?
The American revolution was as successful as it was because of the people behind it, and I'm not just talking about the heroes you read about in school. Just about everybody in the colonies had at least a nodding acquaintance with the ideas of thinkers like John Locke and Thomas Paine.
An armed rebellion today would fail miserably, because most of the people are beholden to the government. They either get money directly from the government, or they work in industries that receive government subsidies. Do you think, for example, that public school teachers will do anything but teach the children in their ever-so-tender care that the rebels are anything but villains?
Before you can have a revolution, you need a people on fire with the lust for liberty. We don't have that, for the most part. Most people, if you were to tell them that it was possible to have a government that did not rob Peter in order to provide Paul with a welfare check, would laugh at you. Suggest repealing the income tax, and the first thing you'll hear is "how will the government replace those 'lost revenues', as if the government was ever morally entitled to that money in the first place.
A revolution won't work right now. The people are not ready; they do not burn with a passionate need for freedom.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
I don't like the idea of compulsory ID cards but how is making snide remarks about a document that simply outlines different approaches to and some of the benefits benefits of such a scheme going to help the argument against the scheme?
A National ID card scheme has loads of great advantages and trying to argue that it does not is foolish. The only arguments are either that the disadvantages of such a scheme to civil liberties are too great a cost or that the financial costs are so great that equivalent advantages are cheaper or are simply not required if the price is that high.
I mean "you" as in the human race. Humans have been more-or-less "civilized" for at least 6000 years, and the answer to abuses of power is still to overthrow the government and put in a new government, which in turn will become corrupt. Humans don't seem to understand that government itself is the problem. As long as people believe that some people have the right to order the rest around, there are going to be abuses of power. If there are too many people for the rulers to manage without ID, then the rulers will find some way to force the ruled to carry identification of some sort. As long as people accept that "government" is necessary, there will be abuses of power and oppression.
The only answer, the only way to break the cycle between revolution and tyranny, is to abandon the idea that some people have either the right or the ability to rule over others. However, for anarchy to work, people have to learn to interact using reason, not force.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
Just like paying income taxes in the US is "voluntary."
There definitely is a certain need for ID cards. There are several situations where you are supposed to identify yourself. The way this is 'solved' currently, is to show a recent UTILITY BILL. Yes, a bill from your supplier of gas/electricity/water. No, I don't think this is funny.
So let's take an example:
You are moving to the UK (from the 'continent', so easy to do within the EU).
You want to rent a flat. To proof you are able to pay for that, get a 'bank statement' (piece of paper from your bank which essentially says you can afford that), and of course a bank account to set up a standing order mandate. But you don't have a british bank account yet and want to open one. Guess what you need to provide there? Yes, a utility bill, with your name and address on it. You don't have one because you don't live in a flat already? Hmm, your problem then. One way to get out of this 'funny' circle is to find a bank employee that doesn't take the rules too seriously. Another way would be to get your name on someone else's bill (as second person living somewhere).
Another example would be renting a car. Needs an utility bill as well.
This could certainly need replacement with an ID card. Just something that is recognised by banks and such. And something that is more difficult to forge than a bill on simple white A4 paper.
Essentially, in the UK, the responsibility for someone to verify your identity is passed on to the utility companies. They however don't do any checks! Did you know, you can call up such a company, tell them you moved into a specific address and want to use their service? Shortly afterwards you will get a letter to given address with your name on it, from this utility company. I am not advocating doing that, just pointing out that I recently took over our neighbours account because British Gas f***ed up and didn't get the address right...
Please note that I definitely oppose saving lots of data on that card (fingerprints), making that readable via rfid, or combining all data into one nice big database (that is surely prone to abuse). But, please don't overlook proper use cases for a simple and privacy-friendly implementation!
To stay a bit on topic: the leaked document is an interesting read, especially with all those comments from NO2ID. They are a bit over the top at times, but point out several stupid assumptions of the original authors.
Who needs kids, or women who look like them?
Rangiku, rather than Orihime, and Yoruichi, rather than Rukia.
Honestly, I think we all have the necessary reading comprehension to see what the document is driving at. I don't need some ridiculous side commentary, which is wholly devoid of any useful insight, to help me understand the content of the document.
Frankly, the commentary sounds like the rantings of some extremist, conspiracy-theorist wanker, and does nothing but muddy the issues, not to mention make reading the document more difficult, as I have to wade through their irritating scribblings.
An ID card would not make a big difference, because there are already so many databases: the election register, credit ratings, banks, phone companies (including the connection logs), tax files, national insurance, health care... and just about any government institution has access to these. That is the real issue, while the ID discussion is only a smoke screen. I mean, private companies can find out how you use your bank account, even if you are in credit. Why do they need that information?
As to the ID card, I have to say that this move is long overdue, for several reasons. Firstly, it should get rid of using utility bills to prove your identity, which does not prevent identity fraud in any way. The same applies for more than dubious "citizen cards" (issued by private companies) to prove your age.
Secondly, the UK already has a database of all foreigners, and of everybody getting into or out of the country. Including British citizens is only fair.
Ask me again in ten thousand years. Either humanity will have evolved, or they'll have destroyed themselves.
I write sci-fi for metalheads
http://xkcd.com/327/
We do have a national ID card in Germany. The coercion scheme is simple you have to have an ID, it is required by law.
Either it is the passport or it is the national ID card or some ersatz.
If you look at the Wikipedia entry for it you are offered some motivation for why the ID card might be a good thing.
First you need it if you want to vote, also you can use it if you must prove you are who you pretend to be, this is all
pretty much the same as in the pdf provided. The german ID card is not enough to prove you are a German citizen but only
an indicator that this might be the case.
This so far allows the government to know that you exist and are older than 16 years.
In addition to that you have to sign up at your local "ID" office (for lack of better word) when ever you move to a new place,
so now the government also knows where you live if you are the kind of citizen which doesn't like paying some annoying fines.
The time you become aware of this whole ID thing in Germany is when you get drafted by your local drafting office since they get
your identity through the local ID office. Well anyway, you have to spent some 9 months of your life either serving in the army
or in some social function if you don't like to serve in the army.
This is our current setup. Certainly, it makes it easier for the government to interfere with your life.
I'm wondering why your government wants this now.
One reason mentioned in the pdf might be the credibility of the UK identity assurance. Especially if the UK wants to fit into
the EU it might help to have something more of a rigid scheme for IDing its citizens. This might just be peer pressure.
To compare that with some more extreme government interference I remember that the former GDR had a system in place where if riots
were to breakout particularly troublesome individuals were to be locked up into makeshift prison camps. Even if you were not
particularly aligned with the system you were able to get hold of that information but you would not be told by the government
openly about it. This sort of plan wouldn't only require some sort of ID system but also some pervasive spying on a countries citizens.
We are obviously not that far, there is hardly anything forbidden nowadays you would get locked up for, which doesn't at least border
on plain old crime and about which some public consensus couldn't be obtained.
On the other hand if shit like the above mentioned prison camps would appear again I would expect that some information would leak
out. The question I ask myself frequently though is what I might do then. I could keep my head low like last time. Or run away maybe?
Je me souviens.
... was a patriot!
If you disagree with me on social issues, then it's pretty clear that you are a narrow-minded bigot.
Wikileaks, no DNS
This national database scheme has had a lot of bad press, but I'm not so sure it deserves it. Let's think about which databases I'm currently on in the UK. The NHS (I recently saw a consultant and have a GP), local government (I'm on the electoral roll and pay my local taxes), HM revenue and customs (I pay income taxes), Equifax/etc - I have a mortgage and credit cards. Really all this scheme is doing is centralising all of this data under one key. The only problem I have with it is authorisation for access to all the various bits of information of interest. I have no problem with it all being stored in one place, which is really all this scheme is about. I already need a national insurance number to be employed, so what's the big deal? Having said that, I don't want to have to pay for it (and costings put the card at over £100!).
I guess it's going to be slightly more difficult to sneakily download MP3's once your details, signature, thumb print and threat assessment are linked to your ISP/IP address, then sold to the RIAA and the BPI...
Right-wingers took over the Labour Party the same way they took over the Democratic Party in the U.S. If somebody doesn't come up with an alternative and kick some of these fascist pricks out pretty soon, we're going to find out just how much worse a police state can be than anything a bunch of terrorists could hope to accomplish.
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Does this really surprise anyone? Blair and the so called "New" Labour charged onto the scene in the 90" promising a blend of pragmatic economics, and kind social policy. They let the street ruin itself and push the economy along, all the while they whittled away at the rights of the individual until tey finally managed to create a Pig Farm like nation. ASBO's, surveillance cameras everywhere, expanded search and seizure powers under the guise of counter terrorism laws (introduced WELL before 09/11). And now, the plan to "coerce" citizens into carrying an ID card. This flies in the face of what Common Law dictates, and that is NO MAN IS UNDER ANY OBLIGATION TO IDENTIFY HIMSELF BEFORE THE CROWN. Magna Carta, The Bill of Rights, and Habeous Corpus are now merely pretty words in history books in the good ole UK! Hopefully we here in North America can resist the trend.
It's funny to see your fear against IDs. In the Eastern Europe we have had IDs since second world war at the latest. No one feels that his privacy is violated by having a record in a goverment's register. You must invent those funny histories about being spied by the government, because you don't have any idea what it means to live in a true totalitary system.