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Passport Files of Presidential Hopefuls Snooped

CNN is reporting on the widening brouhaha that began when Barack Obama's passport file was accessed illegally on three occasions beginning in January. Now it seems that John McCain's file was also snooped; and that last year Hillary Clinton's file suffered the same fate. Ars Technica nails the real importance of these breaches, saying that the Presidential hopefuls are "...currently providing the country with a very public lesson in why the 'privacy advocates' who oppose initiatives like Real ID and the executive branch's domestic surveillance programs should really be called 'democracy advocates.' In short..., the entire incident shows exactly why citizens' privacy is critical in a country where citizens compete with one another for control of the government."

204 comments

  1. I guess you could spin this into anything by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I see it as a reason that all passport information should be freely accessible to anyone who wants it. After all, it's owned by the public already. Full transparency is a more effective solution than full opacity because it's both easier to achieve, and eliminates abuses by making them uses.

    1. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 0

      Why does this illustrate the need for privacy in a democracy again? "I leave it to the reader to imagine the terrible consequences this could have, like if some hick sherriff decided to throw Obama in a cell because he didn't like his progressive politics." is not exactly compelling.

      If anything, this article illustrates how insignificant peoples privacy is, how illusional it is, and how inconsequencial it is when it's violated.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Headcase88 · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's awesome, let me try one.

      Bribes to congressman should be legal; they're going to take bribes anyway, so if they're illegal it will accomplish making congress look bad, which in turn diminishes the integrity of the government and country which is bad for us all.

      Except bribing congress is pretty much legal already, and I'd imagine they came up with a better excuse than that for why :/

      --
      "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
    3. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      I see it as a reason that all passport information should be freely accessible to anyone who wants it

      Yeah, and since people break into houses and steal things, your stuff should be freely accessible to anyone who wants it too.

    4. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by owlnation · · Score: 4, Insightful

      One would like to hope that this incident might mean that all 3 candidates now fully understand the importance of protecting everyone's privacy, and will ensure that its kept sacrosanct.

      Yes, I don't think that will happen either.

    5. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "I wonder what the Ars Technica/privacy zealots who oppose RealID protection will say when the next hijacked airliner is crashed into a building."

      I'm sorry, "RealID protection" I fail to see how having an ID is protection at all. The topic of course is about peoples private information being looked at. We currently don't know if it was given to anyone or what purpose the access was done. But I suspect that the passport information contains things like passport number and SSN and other identifying information. Well identity theft is a serious costly issue to all of us, now isn't it. I would imagine that the information in the passport file would contain some lovely information that could be used for identity theft. That of course would be rather dumb for the celebrities this article is about, but it seems that only some of the more important names were flagged for the type of alert that caused this to be exposed. Who knows how many others have had their information comprimised, illegally I might add.

      Now lets all get a database of information on everyone. That will solve the problem, require everyone to have an ID that they will be required to carry, that solves the problem doesn't it. Wait a minute what was the problem, identity theft? If someone has a fake ID that looks good, well then they are that person, if they have the background information like the ssn, address, and those little numbers on the back of the card, well then they are that person. Substituting an external tag for a person, substituting a copyable, forgable, piece of identification for a living breathing person, does not solve a problem, it only says we trust and ID more than we do a person, we trust our information database more than a living breathing citizen. If someone wanted to blow up a building, they can forge the documents, and pictures and the building will be history. Better to find out why anyone would want to blow up a building and see to it that the reasons don't exist. In the case of 911, it was our presence in the Middle East that Bin Laden was pissed about. That presence cost us the trade towers. We (the country leaders) of course wanted to be there and had no fear, because we are the super power, so there, bring it on.

    6. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by gambolt · · Score: 1

      OK. What's your name, address, social security number, and mother's maiden name?

      Identity fraud is a problem for anyone. For high level politicians, it has national security implications.

    7. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by mikael · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The UK have solved this problem. All MP's (elected officials) get an extra digit added to their tax number (social security number). Consequently, they are not allowed to use online services.

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    8. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I wonder what the Ars Technica/privacy zealots who oppose RealID protection will say when the next hijacked airliner is crashed into a building.

      They'll say "wow, and the government issued the terrorists real RealIDs, just like the rest of the terrorists who were all legally identified.

      Meanwhile the people collecting my tax money to make yet another piece of plastic ID card will laugh all the way to the bank while people like you stand around drooling and wondering why their magical bits of plastic didn't save anyone.

    9. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by mikael · · Score: 3, Informative

      Here is a real world example which had tragic consequences:

      Unmasked, policeman who gave two killers their victim's address after road rage row

      --
      Vintage computer adverts: http://www.vintageadbrowser.com/computers-and-software-ads
    10. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > One would like to hope that this incident might mean that all 3 candidates now fully understand the importance of protecting everyone's privacy, and will ensure that its kept sacrosanct.

      Not yet, I suspect; after all, Eric Schmidt lost his appeal to have personal details removed from Teh Tubes. That's why the US desperately needs a another party to run for the Presidency. I hereby nominate Bruce Schneier AND Chuck Norris as the Dream Team Party - cryptographic and physical defenders of the right to privacy.

    11. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Direct cash bribes to Congress should be legal. There are too many ways they can occur for there to be a real chance of completely preventing them. Instead, we need more democratic ways of making sure they don't act on those bribes. If a Congressman accepts a bribe from a contractor and awards them a contract worth $5m of public money, his constituents should be able to vote him out of office that afternoon.

    12. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      One would like to hope that this incident might mean that all 3 candidates now fully understand the importance of protecting everyone's privacy, and will ensure that its kept sacrosanct.

      Yes, I don't think that will happen either. The difference between the republican's solution and the democrats solution to this problem is:
      • The democrats see this as a breach of privacy and introduce legislation to protect the information.
      • The republicans make all white house information inaccessible to the Freedom of Information Act and require citizens to log their every move with the government, who is protecting us from the enemy.
    13. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      I wonder what the Ars Technica/privacy zealots who oppose RealID protection will say when the next hijacked airliner is crashed into a building.

      "Well, at least they won't have to sift through teeth to identify everybody."

      RealID prevents hijacking like DNA and fingerprints prevent crime.

    14. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by spazmonkey · · Score: 2, Interesting

      One camp (Clinton) is already trying unfortunately.

      Turns out, one of the contract companies who had one of the involved employees (and by definition was therefore on the payroll of that company) just happens to have a CEO that is an Obama campaign supporter. Thus, The Clinton camp is trying to desperately distort it into "someone associated with the Obama campaign "paid" the guy who snooped."

      Turns out, the CEO of the OTHER contract company who had the remaining two employees that were involved in this happens to be a Clinton campaign supporter, a fact I guess they felt it more convenient not to mention. Oh well. politics as usual.

    15. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >If anything, this article illustrates how insignificant peoples privacy is

      If you make over a hundred million a year,
      please give me your full name, date of birth, social security number, spouse's and former spouses' full names, dates of birth, and social security numbers, full address information for current and previous residences, places of employment and dates and phone numbers, parent's full and maiden names and social security numbers and addresses, and then remind us about how insignificant a passport record is.

      While you're at it, please tell us for every time you have left the country, what airline or ship you were on, how much your ticket cost, exact travel date timestamped to the minute, and the amount of money you took into and out of the country. That information is also in these records.

      Insignificant? At the very least, it's a perfect field for identity theft, and at worst it could be useful for an assassin.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    16. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Informative

      >OK. What's your name, address, social security number, and mother's maiden name?

      There is far more than that in a passport record, and for a passport record with
      diplomatic credentials, assuredly more than a regular citizen passport.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    17. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by sempernoctis · · Score: 1

      eliminates abuses by making them uses.
      Isn't that like increasing manufacturing jobs by defining them to include fast food workers (no offense intended to the fast food industry)? How does changing the definition of something make it right?
    18. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      I see no connection between the existence or not of a unique identity validation system and the results of years of incompetent foreign policy that allowed such extremist groups to thrive. IIRC, the hijackers didn't need to lie about who they were to board and hijack those planes and their real names were there in the passenger list.

      That hijacking subverted the commonly accepted rules of the time. Before 9/11, the planes and its passengers were considered valuable hostages that would be used for bargaining and the possibility of using jetliners as missiles was not considered a real threat except for the government officials who were aware of the possibility. I sincerely doubt a couple guys with knives and a fake bomb could hijack a plane these days. The more likely outcome would be that the hijacker would be subdued or killed by the passengers.

    19. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by db32 · · Score: 1

      They will say what every reasonably intelligent person that has been paying attention will say. The fuckers that hijacked that plane and flew it into the towers had valid fucking passports. Nice try, now please, move your chickenshit freedom hating ass to China or Russia where you can be safe and the big brother government will keep you that way. We don't need it, we don't want it, take your nonsense elsewhere.

      --
      The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
    20. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by The+End+Of+Days · · Score: 1

      It was essentially satire. I hoped my subject made that fact somewhat clear, but I was intentionally subtle, as satire must be. Too subtle, evidently.

    21. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by silas_moeckel · · Score: 1

      I agree with your sentiment about ID. As far as terrorists please stop being a sheep you can not live life without pissing people off singlely or collectivly because anger is not a rational thing. If you want out of the middle east thats your perogative but please do not use the theat of violence as your justification. Also dont think that it will stop terrorists from attacking there will allways be somethig that pisses somebody off enough to blow something up if for no other reason than metal desiese. There is no way to complety prevent this as long as we allow it to sway our course if terrorist is not effective as swaying public opinion then it's no longer usefull as a tool.

      --
      No sir I dont like it.
    22. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by jac89 · · Score: 1

      They still have a passport file so I don't see how this helps..

    23. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And, as usual, the woman who instigated this ordeal got off scot free.

    24. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You're right that it's unlikely the data in this case could be used effectively to harm high-profile people like presidential candidates, whose international movements are often the subject of public record anyway. Of course, that doesn't mean it couldn't be immensely damaging to Joe Public who doesn't enjoy the same practical protections. Does anyone feel like trying to steal Barack Obama's identity? I doubt that would work out real well for them. But stealing some random member of the public's, and then cleaning out their bank account or committing a crime so it looks like they did it? That's all too real a prospect, because it happens to thousands of people every year, and that figure is growing very fast. Personally, I wouldn't call this "inconsequential".

      It would have been nice if the candidates had been personally damaged by whatever data was revealed, obviously not enough that it would compromise their personal safety or anything like that, but enough that they would not want it to happen again, perhaps something that caused them some political embarrassment. Short of the US having something like the UK's child benefit data loss, where almost half the population was affected and the media made merry with the story for weeks, it's hard to see how anything other than directly affecting the people at the top of government will make the point that privacy and security do matter, and the law isn't keeping up with the technology.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    25. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by interstellar_donkey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The republicans make all white house information inaccessible to the Freedom of Information Act and require citizens to log their every move with the government, who is protecting us from the enemy.

      Hint: Right now, the "enemy" is the government.

      --
      The Internet is generally stupid
    26. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by bitingduck · · Score: 1

      As pointed out in the article, why should they get additional privacy protection that the average citizen doesn't? Why not a flag that alerts the subject (regardless of fame level) any time their file is accessed by anyone, along with a brief explanation as to the purpose of the access?

    27. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by dave87656 · · Score: 1

      The republicans make all white house information inaccessible to the Freedom of Information Act and require citizens to log their every move with the government, who is protecting us from the enemy.

      Hint: Right now, the "enemy" is the government.
      My thoughts exactly.
    28. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I wonder what the Ars Technica/privacy zealots who oppose RealID protection will say when the next hijacked airliner is crashed into a building.

      Probably:

      My God, what a tragedy.

      Followed shortly by:

      Apparently, all that money we we're spending on the NSA/CIA/FBI/TSA/Homeland Security and others isn't actually working. Perhaps we should consider another approach; one that can't be trivially circumvented and doesn't piss people off.
    29. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      It would have been nice if the candidates had been personally damaged by whatever data was revealed, obviously not enough that it would compromise their personal safety or anything like that, but enough that they would not want it to happen again, perhaps something that caused them some political embarrassment.

      You mean, it would have made you feel good about your preconceived notions if they had been ratified by this event. Except, oh darn, they were not. So, just like everyone else, you reassure us that the sky might fall next time, and urge us to take your concerns seriously in the absence of evidence that we should.

      If you saw someone else in such circumstances, wouldn't you think to yourself, "Wow, you'd think he'd question his position after something like this. Clearly, he's not connected to what's going on in the world, or he wouldn't be able to seriously entertain these notions." I know I do.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    30. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You mean, it would have made you feel good about your preconceived notions if they had been ratified by this event. Except, oh darn, they were not. So, just like everyone else, you reassure us that the sky might fall next time, and urge us to take your concerns seriously in the absence of evidence that we should.

      You write with great confidence, considering that you have absolutely no idea who you're talking to or what you're talking about.

      I can't speak for anyone else, but I have personally had my life screwed up for several months because of simple mistakes in government handling of personal information. I nearly lost my home because of a simple human error by some low grade government worker with direct access to personal information about me and inadequate supervsion, working in a system with insufficient safeguards. My notions aren't preconceived, they are born of direct personal experience. My concerns about skies falling (your choice of words, not mine) are born of direct personal experience. You talk about absence of evidence, yet from where I sit, you appear to be the one disconnected from reality: you assume that because something hasn't happened to you, there's no problem for anyone else either.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    31. Re:I guess you could spin this into anything by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      I beg your pardon but a sheep is one that follows along with the crowd. I don't think that is what I am doing. There are several things going on, true people get pissed off, its not rational, there are mentally defective people who will do bad things. But neither of those should also cause me to loose my Constitutional freedoms or right to privacy, or to be afraid. Well political parties or groups with a social or political agenda are in the business of swaying public opinion, That is the nature of social organization. You should be swayed by good arguments, or you are a sheep following along with some ideology that tells you dont think, they are bad, we are good and right. The thing to do is present the argument that sways more pursuasivly, not invade a country, not torture people, no rendition, dont listen in on everyones phone calls and emails. State your argument and if your argument is not pursuasive, you loose.

  2. Re:frist by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    pist You've got fail.
  3. What's private about passport records? by cdrguru · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    And how does passport records (assuming it is just entry & exit times) relate to Real ID in any fashion? Real ID is an attempt to eliminate the cartoon-drawing Driver's Licenses that some states hand out. Real ID is an attempt to eliminate the Mexican Government from "assisting" in getting Driver's Licenses to illegals.

    The government folks are snooping goverment records all the time anyway. Just ask Hillary about the FBI and IRS records for political foes the last time she lived at the White House.

    1. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Apparently there weren't even entry/exit times. It was just their application. Name, address, DOB, SSN, etc. Fairly uninteresting stuff.

    2. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't ask why or apply logic, just accept the fact that we got a blow in for whatever we are supposed to support this week. Haven't you noticed slashdot becoming more of a political "tool" then a place to discuss news for nerds.I guess maybe there wouldn't be enough discusion without the flame though, I don't know.

      Anyways, the connection is merely someone's loose opinion.

    3. Re:What's private about passport records? by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The government folks are snooping goverment records all the time anyway. Just ask Hillary about the FBI and IRS records for political foes the last time she lived at the White House.

      And that is why you don't want any MORE info in the hands of the feds than the minimum needed. In my opinion the guvmint should be required to send you a letter every time it looks up your personal information. This would sure open some people's eyes I bet.

    4. Re:What's private about passport records? by SydShamino · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What's private about passport records? Passport records contain your name, your address, your social security number, your place of birth, and a photo of you. With a sufficiently-large selection of data from the passport records, you could find someone who looked similar to you and could genuinely steal their identity in a long-lasting fashion.

      What galls me is that, apparently, the database has a flag that can be set for "famous people", which causes a supervisor alert whenever the file is accessed. Where is the special alert for the rest of us? We're the ones whose data could be abused to wreak havoc on our lives and finances.

      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    5. Re:What's private about passport records? by TheSkyIsPurple · · Score: 1

      Part of RealID is giving access to all state ID records to the Feds.

      If they already can't keep a cap on the passport data they are responsible for now, why would they be trustable with more of our information?

    6. Re:What's private about passport records? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Haven't you noticed slashdot becoming more of a political "tool" then a place to discuss news for nerds I hadn't noticed it, because I blocked all stories by kdawson from the front page. I unblocked them last week to see if he had stopped posting unresearched crap to back up his political position. He hasn't, so I'll go back to blocking him again. I suggest everyone else does the same until Taco gets a grip and fires him. It's not like there's a shortage of interesting tech news that he could be posting, after all.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:What's private about passport records? by xaxa · · Score: 2, Informative

      What's private about passport records? Passport records contain your name, your address, your social security number, your place of birth, and a photo of you. According to the BBC News article
      "US passport files include data such as age and place of birth, foreign travel records, and a Social Security number."

      http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7309165.stm

      I'd be interested to know if UK passport files include foreign travel records (since I have one).
    8. Re:What's private about passport records? by HiThere · · Score: 1

      Well, if nothing else its everything you need to commit identity theft.

      --

      I think we've pushed this "anyone can grow up to be president" thing too far.
    9. Re:What's private about passport records? by TubeSteak · · Score: 3, Informative

      Don't ask why or apply logic, just accept the fact that we got a blow in for whatever we are supposed to support this week. What are we supporting this week?
      Stronger privacy protections? Less intrusive government?
      My, what an awful political tool /. has become.

      Anyways, the connection is merely someone's loose opinion. Step 1. Government creates database
      Step 2. Databse gets abused
      Step 3. Reforms are 'enacted'
      Step 4. Go back to step 2

      The only reason this case of abuse was noticed is because high profile people have a tripwire attached to their records to alert a supervisor whenever those records are accessed. The people who pass laws have built in special privacy protections for themselves and anyone with money, fame, or notability. You think it would be front page news if a contractor was probing through the passport records of sumdumass (711423)?

      If you can't see the relationship between a contractors snooping through a Passport database and the potential for contractors snooping through a Real ID database... you must be willfully blind.
      --
      [Fuck Beta]
      o0t!
    10. Re:What's private about passport records? by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 0

      Yeah but it seems that Slashdot, CNet, Wired, and many other "technology" news sites often report on a lot of stories via a political opinion that is very left-wing and very unbalanced and has quite a bit of a spin on it. Even worse are Digg and Reddit websites in which most of the links voted to the first few pages are ultra-liberal in their opinions and anything not ultra-liberal gets dumped or moved to last on the list.

      The Internet in general has a ultra-liberal bias with a few exceptions like Red State, Little Green Footballs, Conservapedia, etc that have an ultra-right-wing bias. Just for once I'd like to see a moderate or neutral point of view or opinion. One that sticks to facts and the truth instead of hearsay, rumors, gossip, and opinions disguised as facts. This trend has happened after 9/11 and only has gotten worse. Yet the trend did start about 1998 when Bill Clinton was being impeached and MoveOn.Org was formed to get the public to move on away from the fact that Bill Clinton cheated on his wife and start attacking Conservative Republicans on the Internet via blogs they formed which would one day replace news sites. So Slashdot has become a liberal blog of sorts that replaces a true news site. No longer news for nerds, it is more like news for liberal nerds. Slashdot sold its soul to the Democratic party of America a few years ago just like CNet, Wired, The New York Times, CNN, MSNBC, Kuro5hin, Wikipedia, etc have done as well.

      I am one of those few people who uses critical thinking to find the biases and flaws in stories on Slashdot, etc and can point out the logical fallacies as well. This story is a straw man fallacy used to attack the Bush Administration for the Patriot Act that allows domestic spying to capture terrorist suspects. The passport files of Presidential candidates are being viewed by their political opponents and the press and media, and not the government, but the bias and spin on this story makes people think that Bush and company are spying on Obama and Clinton by viewing their passport files. They turn a blind eye to the fact that a lot of information is public records and most Internet Detective companies charge $35 to access public records to turn up info on people, and those companies also use social engineering to get access to cell phone records, passport files, medical history, and other things. There exists a Big Brother all right, but it is not the government, it is a series of companies that either sell the information over the Internet, or media companies collect it for stories, or political candidates spy on each other to get information on their opponents.

      Heck someone did that to me the past few months ago, and called my house at 2am in the morning asking to speak to me about my medical and work history, and they got the information on me by entering my email address into an Internet Detective database and paying $35 (it emailed me that someone has accessing my personal files but didn't give me an option to opt-out or prevent it) and a few weeks later I start getting harassing calls early in the morning. Most likely because someone doesn't like my opinions on Slashdot or some other web site and decided to give me a hard time about it.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    11. Re:What's private about passport records? by gambolt · · Score: 1

      In short, it's one-stop identity-theft. It's everything anyone would need to get a passport with your name on it.

    12. Re:What's private about passport records? by Qrlx · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And how does passport records (assuming it is just entry & exit times) relate to Real ID in any fashion?

      The issue is not the records, it's who has access to them, and what they do with that access.

      You certainly don't have access, but somebody with an axe to grind might. Nixon had his Enemies List. The TSA has the No-Fly List. According to Newsweek, 1.3 million Americans have their bank accounts under the same sort of "special scrutiny" that noticed Eliot Spitzer moving a few thousand dollars around. (Less than the $10,000 banks are required to report.) The bank account monitoring came about due to PATRIOT, by the way.

      The government folks are snooping goverment records all the time anyway

      Actually that's not as true as you might think, but regardless, it's irrelevant. As this case demonstrates, now the contractor folks are snooping government records too.

      My guess is, as more and more data gets collected, we simply won't have privacy any more. The only fix I see is to simply stop collecting (and storing, and making more available, and organizing so intelligently) so much data.

      In the Spitzer case, I don't see how his downfall benefits New York. Why are we collecting all this data about people? Whatever good comes of it (if any, can somebody think of any good that's come of it) seems to be completely outweighed by the bad.

      Perhaps I'm okay with collecting the data, but it should be abstracted away from the person's identity. You should probably need to convince a judge to issue a search warrant on the basis that User_ID 136137134 is showing a pattern of suspicious activity.

      As I recall this is more or less why we have a FISA court in the first place. To prevent exactly the sorts of abuses of surveillance that Nixon, Hoover, et. al. were so fond of.

    13. Re:What's private about passport records? by Stephen+Samuel · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Real ID is an attempt to eliminate the cartoon-drawing Driver's Licenses that some states hand out. If that was all that realid did, it would simply have to mandate minimum standards for drivers licenses -- and if that was all it did, I doubt that California would mind joining in on it.

      What Realid also does, is force states to combine all of their records together where the federal government can access them, and allows the federal government to join that data with private and government data for whatever purpose it wants.

      All of that data in one place is a really big prize for somebody wanting to mess with somebody's life -- especially when you consider that DHS has consistently failed security audits for it's computer networks.

      --
      Free Software: Like love, it grows best when given away.
    14. Re:What's private about passport records? by grassy_knoll · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In my opinion the guvmint should be required to send you a letter every time it looks up your personal information. This would sure open some people's eyes I bet.


      If that's your goal, then push for it to cover private contractors working on a government contract.

      Otherwise the FBI, DHS, et. al. could just contract out and never provide any notification, since the government agency in question never accessed a citizens personal information (but their contractor did).

    15. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the entire incident shows exactly why citizens' privacy is critical in a country where citizens compete with one another for control of the government."

      Is it me, or that's an argument *against* privacy?

      If any of the candidates had private files revealing that they'd be a bad president, I'd like to know that sooner than later.

      I'm for transparency.

    16. Re:What's private about passport records? by GodfatherofSoul · · Score: 4, Informative

      I was following news coverage of passport records on Friday, and apparently they contain WAY more data than your passport, ID, and travel records. Criminal records, details about your interactions with other countries, attempts to change citizenship, etc.

      --
      I swear to God...I swear to God! That is NOT how you treat your human!
    17. Re:What's private about passport records? by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      This story is a straw man fallacy used to attack the Bush Administration for the Patriot Act that allows domestic spying to capture terrorist suspects. Or you could be just a little, tiny bit paranoid?

      Most likely because someone doesn't like my opinions on Slashdot or some other web site and decided to give me a hard time about it Maybe a just a bit?
    18. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What are we supporting this week?
      Stronger privacy protections? Less intrusive government?
      My, what an awful political tool /. has become.
      But the government isn't intrusive and privacy protections were in place and working with this story. Hence the don't apply logic just bitch and fit in. If you think a non-related story is doing something for your movement, then there is no surprise when you also think nobody else cares.

      Step 1. Government creates database
      Step 2. Databse gets abused
      Step 3. People get caught abusing it because of the protections already in place and no further reforms are necessary
      Step 4. Go back to step 2
      There fixed that for you.

      The only reason this case of abuse was noticed is because high profile people have a tripwire attached to their records to alert a supervisor whenever those records are accessed. The people who pass laws have built in special privacy protections for themselves and anyone with money, fame, or notability. You think it would be front page news if a contractor was probing through the passport records of sumdumass (711423)?
      It wouldn't be front page news if they were looking through my records but the same trips would have happened and someone would have looked into why someone accessed my files without associated paperwork and so on. The only difference is that I am not important enough to make the news where the three presidential candidates are.

      If you can't see the relationship between a contractors snooping through a Passport database and the potential for contractors snooping through a Real ID database... you must be willfully blind.
      It doesn't matter if they can do either. They where caught and punitive measure were taken. It is like you demanding a road block be put up and taken down at every intersection when the light turns red when there is a cop already there giving tickets to anyone running the red light. Measure were put in place years ago, abuses happened and the people who abused their position have been addresses accordingly. I'm not sure if some punishment was hard enough, but it happened.

      And even if I didn't support the Real ID (which I don't), I do support the passport database. But this isn't a story about abuse, it is a story about tripwires and safeguards being in place that made it possible for you to know something happened. If anything it is something the government did right.
    19. Re:What's private about passport records? by Random+Q.+Hacker · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Haha, you just made his point by still having a step 4.

      i.e. Even if there is a supposed protection in place, it will still be abused again and again.

      To quote WOPR: "The only way to win is not to play."

    20. Re:What's private about passport records? by cmacb · · Score: 3, Interesting

      One of the things that got my attention about this story (yesterday when it was actually still news) was the mention of "government officials". Even though the story had it right that it was contractors that did the peeking, they continued to refer to them as "government officials".

      As a former government contractor I can say with a fair amount of confidence that we are safe from "government officials" looking up our records in Federal databases. Most of them are doing good to get through their morning e-mail without a call to the help desk. The really technical ones can manage simple spreadsheets (although in my experience this involved a fair amount of hand-holding too).

      I'm not sure if the problem here is that the average citizen doesn't know the difference between a contractor and a "government official" or if the reporters involved just weren't sure which one it was. Chances are that if you call the IRS, Social Security Administration, or State Department you are going to be talking to a contractor, not a "government official" or even (if we want to consider a third category) a government employee. They don't do database updates, they don't do secretarial work, they don't write computer programs, they certainly don't make their own travel arrangements (Clinton/Gore's government re-invention program relieved them of this onerous responsibility) and they can sit right next to a ringing telephone for hours without being bothered by it.

      So, now, the question remains for those who are in favor of the government doing more and more things for us, all of such things involving the collection of various bits of data about ourselves: Who would you rather have access to that data... (a) a contractor, who as we've seen might use idle time to sneak a peek at their neighbors info, or (b) a government employee (or official) who might also do such things, but in addition might accidentally delete or mangle your records because they don't have a clue how the data is organized.

      By the way my answer is (c) none of the above. There is no technology fix for this. If you don't want your data looked at, then don't have it out there. That means you have to take a certain amount of responsibility for your own lives. Tough huh?

    21. Re:What's private about passport records? by j-pimp · · Score: 1

      Haven't you noticed slashdot becoming more of a political "tool" then a place to discuss news for nerds.I guess maybe there wouldn't be enough discusion without the flame though, I don't know.

      Three words. Presidential Election Cycle. Most US based sites are going to be quite political.

      --
      --- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
    22. Re:What's private about passport records? by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      I'm not paranoid because that really happened to me and forced me to change my phone number as they kept calling at 2am 3am at night every night and waking me up. Maybe you find that sort of thing as normal and if a person gets upset over it you call them paranoid. But what if it happened to you night after night? They spoofed caller ID using an Internet connection to make the calls, so the Police couldn't trace the harassing calls. I have evidence to back it up as well as police reports.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    23. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      And they will set of alarms and be caught again and again. You see, The protections worked. That's why we know the abuse happened. SO far we know who did it, what they accessed, and any connections to either candidate. There are already laws on the books if they use any of the information to damage anyone. And the government who knew about this before we did, knows nothing has been used so far.

      I don't know how better it could have worked. I mean outside discarding the information and not keeping a record of who enters and leave the country, the protections worked quite well.

    24. Re:What's private about passport records? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 0, Flamebait
      Yeah but it seems that Slashdot, CNet, Wired, and many other "technology" news sites often report on a lot of stories via a political opinion that is very left-wing and very unbalanced and has quite a bit of a spin on it. Even worse are Digg and Reddit websites in which most of the links voted to the first few pages are ultra-liberal in their opinions and anything not ultra-liberal gets dumped or moved to last on the list.

      Or maybe they just print the facts as they see them and your brain refuses to acknowledge any data points that conflict with the right wing alternative reality you live in?

      One theory is that Bush has dropped to 30% approval ratings because the left wing press have attacked him unfairly, another is that most people now concur with the left wing opinion that the man is a total incompetent abd that he bears a considerable amount of blame for the current economic situation and the fiasco in Iraq.

      One theory is that the surge has succeeded and victory is possible. Another is that the insurgents believe that there is no need to fight as only an imbecile would now imagine that the US is going to continue spending a half trillion dollars a year there. If they are proved wrong for whatever reason they can always start fighting again.

      One theory is that the sub-prime meltdown tells us that deregulated finance markets are not the cause. Another is that conservative think tanks would spew out any old nonsense if it provided political cover for their paymasters do to the US what the looters in Iraq did to the national museum.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    25. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Political is fine. A political took presents the stories in a favorable way to a certain side.

      The difference would be a neutral story summery that might say something like, "federal employees and contract workers were caught looking at presidential candidate's pass port records." A tool story would be one that assigns opinion as if it was fact to the summery or story itself or attempts to coopt the story to press another agenda. One of these looks like the "currently providing the country with a very public lesson in why the 'privacy advocates' who oppose initiatives like Real ID and the executive branch's domestic surveillance programs should really be called 'democracy advocates.'" in the summery. The fact is that the story has nothing to do with the domestic spying program or RealID.

      They essentially took a story about records being accessed inappropriately, the people doing it being caught and punished because of safeguards already in place and working, and turned it into a "remember us whining about something, we are going to do it again because we can skip the details of this unrelated story and use it to our advantage by introducing the shock value out of context". Then in two weeks time, there will be yet another story about why the public isn't as concerned as they are with a few posts moderated as "flame bait" or "trolls" because they essentially say that everyone thinks they are being scammed when shit like this story happens and it is blown out of portion in order to sneak another objective in. So in essence they don't trust what you say because of your tactics."

      Now, turn this to anything else like Intel processors, linux or windows and anyone calling a spade a spade will be modded up not down. People will be fighting to make sure the truth is out not someone's marketing scheme. As a tool, the truth gets hidden and the marketing propaganda stays on top. It is totally contradictory to Slashdot's entire style.

    26. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they will set of alarms and be caught again and again. You see, The protections worked.
      You missed something important: by the time the abusers are caught, the damage has already been done. I thought we'd already established that reactive security was inferior to prevention.
    27. Re:What's private about passport records? by suckmysav · · Score: 1

      Umm, you know when you you use your passport and some airport security drone stamps it when you go thru immigration?

      Yep, that's a "foreign travel record"

      --
      "You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
    28. Re:What's private about passport records? by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >What's private about passport records?

      Passport records, not the passport itself, contain much more than you cited.

      In some cases, where a passport was not routinely given, there may be far more information.
      All of the passport records in question here, are for people who travel with diplomatic credentials,
      and all of them have a reasonable apprehension of being targeted for assassination. A great deal of
      information about the passport holder, and about his family members, can be found in these records,
      as well as records of how much money they travel with, specific dates and times of travel, and other
      information that may seem useless to you but could be extremely valuable to an assassin.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    29. Re:What's private about passport records? by fishbowl · · Score: 1


      >In short, it's one-stop identity-theft. It's everything anyone would need to get a passport with your name on it.

      You're thinking in terms of "Joe Blow's" passport. You're not thinking like an assassin, and you're not considering
      the difference between travel records of Joe Blow and travel records of someone who has diplomatic credentials (and who
      has a reasonable apprehension of being a target of assassinaion.)

      All three of these individuals have 24 hour Secret Service protection for a reason.

      Passport record is one of the things you don't want a potential assassin to have access to. And that, not the risk of identity theft,
      is the problem in this State Department investigation. It potentially put these people at increased risk of assassination.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    30. Re:What's private about passport records? by ya+really · · Score: 1

      What galls me is that, apparently, the database has a flag that can be set for "famous people", which causes a supervisor alert whenever the file is accessed. Where is the special alert for the rest of us? We're the ones whose data could be abused to wreak havoc on our lives and finances.

      Where exactly did you get this information? I'd like to see a source please.

    31. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      These are people who are supposed to have access to the information. You can't remove their access or prevent their access much more then saying "Don't Do That" and expect them to do the job. This differs from reactive security in quite a significant way where the breach comes from someone who isn't allowed access.

      So what you do is create a system where there is X amount of paperwork and/or procedures from more then one person or something similar then monitor file access by the people who are supposed to have access to the information. Then when someone accesses something inappropriately, a flag comes up, a follow up is done to determine the legitimacy and possible punishment which might include criminal charges.

    32. Re:What's private about passport records? by scuba0 · · Score: 1

      It's still automatic too, the stamps are mostly for personal use, there are few security checkpoints that need them today. With EU as example, all personal data and travelinfo must be sent to the US preflight so they only need to match the id and add the current tripp to the database. Sure they might not cache what you did ten years ago but the paper and electronic trail of some people are long.

    33. Re:What's private about passport records? by xaxa · · Score: 1

      When I go through immigration to a different EU country from the UK my passport doesn't get stamped. It doesn't get stamped on the way back either. Currently, my passport is empty, even though I've left Britain several times recently.

      They do scan the passport's OCR text though, I wondered if they kept a record of that.

    34. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And they will set of alarms and be caught again and again. You see, The protections worked.

      Great, it sounds just like the penal system - people get caught again and again and now the US has the highest incarceration rate in the Western world.

      At some point you have to conclude that deterrents don't work against some people, so you need genuine safeguards instead - like, say, not building a massive database of everyone's private information and exposing it to thousands of bored minimum wage call center employees.

    35. Re:What's private about passport records? by Random+Q.+Hacker · · Score: 1

      From the article, the protections and alarms you are referring to apply only to high-profile persons. So unless I'm having this conversation with Barak Obama or the Olsen Twins, your record probably does not enjoy those same protections.

    36. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It wouldn't be front page news if they were looking through my records but the same trips would have happened and someone would have looked into why someone accessed my files without associated paperwork and so on. You really are fucking stupid aren't you. No. The same trips would not have happened. Unless you're secretly George Clooney or something, your name is not on the special VIP list.

      But this isn't a story about abuse, it is a story about tripwires and safeguards being in place that made it possible for you to know something happened to a high profile individual's records. RTFA, it's only in the 2nd paragraph.

      The GP was right, your willfully ignorant.
    37. Re:What's private about passport records? by cbart387 · · Score: 1

      The issue's not kdawson but slashdot in general. Here's two posts by him.
      White House Says Hard Drives Were Destroyed
      Posted by kdawson on Sunday March 23, @07:58AM
      151 comments
      Developers: The P.G. Wodehouse Method of Refactoring
      Posted by kdawson on Sunday March 23, @04:02AM
      58 comments

      Even though the more 'techy' one was posted 3-hours earlier, the more political one has about 3 times as many comments. Admit it, slashdotters are more drawn to sensation-ism than you'd like to admit. :/

      --
      Lack of planning on your part does not constitute an emergency on mine.
    38. Re:What's private about passport records? by rbanffy · · Score: 1

      "Real ID is an attempt to eliminate the Mexican Government from "assisting" in getting Driver's Licenses to illegals"

      You know that's a pretty serious thing to say. Do you have any corroborating evidence? If so, you should contact the the federal authorities as soon as possible.

    39. Re:What's private about passport records? by Zeinfeld · · Score: 1
      I think that its time Slashdot retired the 'flamebait' mod. The original poster complained about 'left wing bias', so I think asking if he is simply filtering out all contrary data points is fair comment. It certainly looks that way to me.

      The US right wing is responsible for causing the deaths of hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians by enabling an incompetent and dishonest President to rule by fear. They have smeared and slimed their opponents with attacks on their patriotism. They have lied about WMD, why beleive Condi 'mushroom cloud' Rice on this issue? She has neither credibility nor integrity.

      The fact we can't trust the administration is the central problem here. These things do happen by accident. But theis particular administration has long ago used up its stock of trust. They refuse to explain themselves and in fact reject even the idea that we have any right to hold them accountable.

      Occam's razor suggests that the simplest explanation of this administration is that they are incompetent, dishonest and corrupt.

      --
      Looking for an Information Security student project suggestion?
      Try http://dotcrimeManifesto.com/
    40. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      You see, The protections worked.

      You seem to have an interesting idea of what it means for the protections to "work". It's a bit like saying, "Hi, I've just shot you dead."

      I mean outside discarding the information and not keeping a record of who enters and leave the country, the protections worked quite well.

      Gosh, there's a thought. Maybe there's a moral here about allowing governments to conduct systematic mass surveillance?

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    41. Re:What's private about passport records? by thePowerOfGrayskull · · Score: 1

      I don't doubt that you got the calls - what I doubt is the connection between your posts to Slashdot (or /most/ other forums) and those calls.

    42. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You seem to have an interesting idea of what it means for the protections to "work". It's a bit like saying, "Hi, I've just shot you dead."
      You don't understand. These workers have access to the information as part of their jobs. So it would be more like your parents saying, He was shot dead but the person who did it is behind bars and can't hurt anyone else. The protections wasn't to stop them from firing a gun, it was to mandate when firing it was appropriate and punish people who can't follow those rules. Except in this case, nobody died, and the information was prevented from being used for malicious activity.

      Gosh, there's a thought. Maybe there's a moral here about allowing governments to conduct systematic mass surveillance?
      So your saying that the government should have no idea who is entering or leaving the country or for what purpose? They should have no way to record criminal records and make them available to other law enforcement agencies when a person is accused of a crime. You see, I can play the straw man game too.

      The point is, that it is proper for some information to be kept, especially when the document covered by the information is an Identification where the state or federal government is saying this person is who is written on this document. It is also proper for employees of various organizations to access this information durring the normal course of their jobs. Protections are used to stop and notify certain people when abuses happen and those protections came into play which cause an investigation and punitive actions against the employees.
    43. Re:What's private about passport records? by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

      I believe you're missing my point. Monitoring is good, but prevention is much better.

      Governments (or any other organisation for that matter) should only be allowed to hold the very minimum personal information required to do their jobs. At present, they typically collect vastly more information about both their own population and those visiting their countries than they have any need or right to have. Personal information can't be abused if no-one has collected it and given it to a potential abuser.

      Access to any personal information that does need to be held should be subject to strict controls. In particular, it should not be possible for a single worker to arbitrarily access anything sensitive, and where access is legitimately required as part of a job, not only should that access be recorded but the people given those jobs should be carefully checked first. At present, far too much access is available to individuals working in certain government departments, financial institutions and the like, and it is often abused. This suggests that insufficient safeguards are in place on either the people being hired or the access to the information. Sure, monitoring and deterrence matter (and I happen to think that deliberate invasion of privacy or abuse of access to personal information should be regarded as very serious crimes and punished accordingly) but these measures are only worth anything after the fact. There is a whole load of work you can do to make it less likely that abuses will happen in the first place.

      And no, I don't think certain governments do need anything like as much information about people entering their countries as they currently collect. In fact, I know a significant number of people who now refuse to travel to places like the US for precisely that reason.

      --
      If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
    44. Re:What's private about passport records? by sumdumass · · Score: 1
      And your missing the facts. The one employee was told to look up family members to familiarize herself with the details and personal aspects of the screens. Now one could say they should have had a set of dummy information for that, but it would be assumed that she already knew the information about about her own family. The big problem was that she was logged in as the supervisor who needs access as part of his job. The other two breaches where contract employees who had the keys by the nature of doing their jobs. You can't take the keys away and expect them to do what they were hired for. It is like saying the owner of a restaurant is did something wrong when they gave a manager a key to open the shop in the morning and he uses it to steel food at night. You wouldn't know to take the keys from them until after they did whatever was wrong. People are like animals in that besides instinctive thought, they have independent thoughts that will stop you from actively predicting their future move reliably. In the same light, when the contract employees did something wrong, they were delt with too.

      This isn't a situation of carelessness. Well, maybe the trainee part was. But each and every breach was from a trusted source and by a trusted person who had a legitimate reason to access the data as part of their job if the situation required it.

      And no, I don't think certain governments do need anything like as much information about people entering their countries as they currently collect. In fact, I know a significant number of people who now refuse to travel to places like the US for precisely that reason.
      I think your wrong and we are better off without your friends coming in anyways. I have nothing against foreigners, I just have a deep belief that a sovereign nation should be able to monitor it's borders and who enters it's borders and that is an intricate part of it's sovereignty.
    45. Re:What's private about passport records? by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      In those phone calls they mentioned the web sites by name.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    46. Re:What's private about passport records? by SydShamino · · Score: 1

      Passport records, not the passport itself, contain much more than you cited. Yes, that's why I say "passport records" and not "passports". =p
      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
    47. Re:What's private about passport records? by SydShamino · · Score: 1
      The original source was a CNN article, but a two-second Google search for "passport records flag" revealed this link on the first page:
      http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9070398

      Quoting relevant paragraphs:

      Undersecretary Pat Kennedy said some records have "what computer people call flags -- we put flags on certain records that trigger a report to a supervisor that the record has been accessed," he said.

      Not all 18 million passport records have flags, said Kennedy. The department's Bureau of Counsel Affairs determines what records to flag, he said. Here's another link:
      http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Passports-Privacy.html

      And the quote:

      Supervisors recorded each instance a file was viewed because the applications in question belonged to members of a select group of several hundred citizens whose passport files were ''flagged'' for extra protection due to their visibility, the officials said. Among these people are government leaders, movie stars and athletes, the officials said.
      --
      It doesn't hurt to be nice.
  4. Slashdot. Your source for 3 day old news by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This was news a few days ago, and there are sites a lot better than AT that can cover this type of thing.

  5. Time to increase the penalties for this by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Government has unprecedented data gathering and search capabilities, and is seeking increases in those capabilities. These capabilities are hard to prevent; even if Real ID and similar programs get turned back increased capabilities are the inevitable result of easy to create networks, increasing computer performance and data storage capacity.

    Along with that should go greatly increased penalties for the abuse of these capabilities. Firing a contractor seems hardly sufficient. Anyone performing this sort of act should serve significant jail time, financial penalties, and so on. If repeat offenses occur the company for whom the contractor works should be banned from future government related contracts.

    1. Re:Time to increase the penalties for this by fyoder · · Score: 1

      Along with that should go greatly increased penalties for the abuse of these capabilities. Firing a contractor seems hardly sufficient.

      Firing does seem inadequate, but you want go easy on the knee jerk throw all the baddies in jail response, given that the US already has one of the highest incarceration rates expressed as percentage of population. Simpler would be to cut off a hand for the first offense, the other hand for a second, and so on from there depending on what body part they are using to access a computer. I think most would stop with the first amputation.

      --
      Loose lips lose spit.
    2. Re:Time to increase the penalties for this by the+eric+conspiracy · · Score: 1

      If you you read my posting more carefully, it was a generalized call for stiffer penalties that included jail as merely one option. Amputation isn't something that has cultural precedent in modern America, but surely other options are possible.

    3. Re:Time to increase the penalties for this by dangitman · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Government has unprecedented data gathering and search capabilities, and is seeking increases in those capabilities. These capabilities are hard to prevent;

      Along those lines: technology has increased the capability for copying and sharing intellectual property. So, shouldn't we have much stiffer penalties on things like filesharing and copying of music? Perhaps we should allow the RIAA to directly arrest people they suspect of these crimes, or perhaps shoot them on sight? After all, technology makes this a much more serious issue.

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
  6. What I want to know.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    .. is how terrible Hilary's passport photograph is.

    1. Re:What I want to know.. by lakeland · · Score: 1

      I'd bet it is fine.

      The reason most people have terrible passport photos is they're taken by disinterested photographers (or even machines) using cheap equipment.

      Having said that, the new laws about not smiling and so on sure don't help.

    2. Re:What I want to know.. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Pretty bad, if it looks anything like her.

  7. Did anyone else notice... by wrfelts · · Score: 2, Informative

    ...that the actual culprits (of the most recent "oopses") were an employees of a contractor run by an Obama adviser, John O. Brennan. The previous one was a trainee who was instructed to test the access with a family member's name. I'm neither for nor against Obama, but he crowed the loudest and it was people answering to someone in his camp, not from "the administration". ...interesting...

  8. Well... by jd · · Score: 5, Informative
    In a twist, it turns out at least one search was performed by a contractor paid by an Obama advisor. It also appears that the records were accessed multiple times, not just the once (with quick reaction) initially stated. Now, I personally think that passport information is personal information and that personal information deserves a very high level of protection. I totally agree with the EU and the UK on that, although I think both have been too willing to compromise on principles in order to get anywhere with the US where there is no meaningful privacy at all.

    (I find it sad that in America, private property is often guarded with deadly force, but private property is replaceable, whereas privacy has no protection at all and privacy can never be replaced. Once privacy is lost, it is lost forever.)

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
    1. Re:Well... by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, the private information is guarded against inappropriate access. The fact that you now know about breaches means it is being guarded. The problem was a break down in the communication chain and the proper disclosure to the right people wasn't made available soon enough. There was a failure in the system that ended up delaying us from being informed.

      Surprisingly, the contractor was fired and the two workers weren't? I'm not sure why this happened, I would hope that they are given the rules of accessing the information Before they are given access to the information. It sounds to me like the Unions might be protecting their jobs. If it where up to me, everyone who access anything inappropriate would have been terminated on the spot or as close to it as possible to know for sure they did it. You won't have too many people sneaking a peak when it will cost them their jobs.

    2. Re:Well... by PineGreen · · Score: 1

      (I find it sad that in America, private property is often guarded with deadly force, but private property is replaceable, whereas privacy has no protection at all and privacy can never be replaced. Once privacy is lost, it is lost forever.)

      Only that privacy doesn't exist in any physical sense. It is a purely abstract concept and its boundaries are very poorly defined.

    3. Re:Well... by timmarhy · · Score: 1

      i'd say it has very good boundries - anything in a government file with my name on it.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    4. Re:Well... by jabster · · Score: 1

      Surprisingly, the contractor was fired and the two workers weren't? I'm not sure why this happened

      Basically, once the workers are fired, they must be subpoenaed before they can be questioned. If they're still employed, they are basically dragged into the boss's office and grilled for all the hows and whys. For the investigation, it's much easier for them to still be employed.

      And I gotta admit, I love the whole egg-on-Obama's face aspect of this story. He plays the Blame Bush(tm) first game, and then it's revealed that that his adviser is (at least partially) involved in the privacy breech!

      -john

      --
      Slashdot: you'll not find a more wretched collection of villainy and disreputable types...
    5. Re:Well... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > You won't have too many people sneaking a peak when it will cost them their jobs.

      Lovely suggestion, thank you. That would really help with the lines at the metal detectors when entering/leaving. Just have the rent-a-cops cuff & detain anyone with a mountain, or even a large-ish hillock, on their person instead of questioning them in line for hours and keeping the rest of us enqueued.

    6. Re:Well... by rhomp2002 · · Score: 1

      Interestingly enough that the other two who were doing the snooping were employees of a Clinton campaign official. That means the snooping was done by operatives of the Obama and the Clinton campaigns. How amazing. One would think that the media would blame the administration when it was not them at all. Guess then there is no story.

    7. Re:Well... by dangitman · · Score: 1

      Only that privacy doesn't exist in any physical sense. It is a purely abstract concept and its boundaries are very poorly defined.

      You mean, exactly the same way that private property doesn't exist in any physical sense, and its boundaries are very poorly defined?

      --
      ... and then they built the supercollider.
    8. Re:Well... by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >Actually, the private information is guarded against inappropriate access.

      Yes, as you said, the fact that we know about it indicates that a safeguard worked.
      It might turn out to be amusing to learn that the people snooping didn't know about
      the guard. That would be interesting because it would mean there was a clever system
      in place. That is, it wasn't obvious to the perps that they were being recorded.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
    9. Re:Well... by Deanalator · · Score: 1

      I assume you are talking about http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/22/passport.files/ ?

      Read the article once more. Yes, and employee of Analysis Corp. checked out Obama's and McCain's passport information. Also, Analysis Corp is run by John Brennan. John Brennan also does some consulting for Obama.

      Also note that in the article, it notes that the CEO of Stanley, another passport database contractor, is a Clinton supporter. Also irrelevant.

      Remember, it was Obama that called for the investigation into this matter.
      http://blogs.usatoday.com/onpolitics/2008/03/nbc-obamas-pass.html

  9. Must have outsourced their I.T operations to INDIA by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Soon Hilary, John and Obama will be receiving precision targeted advertising based on their credit card purchases.

  10. Re:3 days old 'news' by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I miss the old Slashdot. You mean when they dupe it in a week? It still could happen, just be patient.
  11. Does it bother anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    that the program that caught them was one designed to track the access of the records of "high-profile Americans?" Because it doesn't matter if the rest of us have our passport files snooped? What do you need to do, exactly, to be "high-profile?"

    1. Re:Does it bother anyone... by Samari711 · · Score: 2, Informative

      High profile people are more likely to have their records accessed unnecessarily than any of us. The flags were put in place after Bill Clinton had his records searched by political enemies trying to prove he dodged the draft during his first run for president. Hopefully they have an access/audit trail for the records so that if something improper goes on it can be properly investigated but sending up an alert every time everyone's records are accessed would be a pretty stupid idea.

      --

      I never said I was smart, I just said I was smarter than you

    2. Re:Does it bother anyone... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do you need to do, exactly, to be "high-profile?"
      Let's ask sumdumass, though I expect his answer to be something like "you have to be a bad person, otherwise our supremely trustworthy government wouldn't even think of doing this to you."
    3. Re:Does it bother anyone... by fishbowl · · Score: 1

      >What do you need to do, exactly, to be "high-profile?"

      Earn a hundred million a year? Run for office on a multimillion dollar campaign?
      Be at sufficiently high risk as an assassination target to warrant 24/7 Secret Service
      protection?

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  12. Re:3 days old 'news' by Headcase88 · · Score: 1

    Yeah, the rule used to be strictly at least one full week.

    --
    "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
  13. Looking at the wrong records get you caught by Bananenrepublik · · Score: 4, Insightful

    According to the article, if they hadn't looked at famous people's records, they wouldn't have gotten caught. In other words it's common for these contractors to look at various people's passport records, only these few were stupid enough to choose to snoop after famous people besides their usual routine of checking on their neighbors, unfaithful spouses, the girl they're stalking, etc.

    1. Re:Looking at the wrong records get you caught by vrmlguy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I hope that that statue of limitations in in effect now, but in case it isn't I'll fuzz a few of the facts. A few years back, I was working for a state office that had a disaster recovery aggreement with the department that handles driver's licenses. So, I was alone in their computer room, and there was a terminal logged into the driver's license database. I did a search of my name, and sure enough there were my records. Then I did searches of several other people, including the governor. At the time, the records included your SSN, but this was before anyone had heard of identity theft so I didn't think anything of it. I didn't take any notes of anything I saw, and cleared the screen before anyone got back. I don't think any investigation was done; at least no one contacted me wanting to know why my records might have been the first ones searched.

      --
      Nothing for 6-digit uids?
    2. Re:Looking at the wrong records get you caught by khallow · · Score: 1

      Excellent. We wouldn't want the famous snooped on by the wrong sort of people.

    3. Re:Looking at the wrong records get you caught by QuantumG · · Score: 1

      I'm impressed that you actually knew who the governor of your state was. You must be some kind of intellectual.

      --
      How we know is more important than what we know.
    4. Re:Looking at the wrong records get you caught by jpdzahr · · Score: 1

      Saturday, March 22, 2008 If you can look at records then you have access and so you can also change records. Anyone that can access your records has many opportunities to delete, change, snoop and remark on......it's so detrimental to personal security that you don't realize what the complete implications are to such a breach of data. In modern terms we call this DATA Hacking and it's usually not beneficial to your own personal data. Recently I had to call All State Insurance my insurance company about a billing question over the weekend and when I called a USA toll free 800 number I ended up in Bangalore, India where the phone representative began asking me outrageous questions in a thick traditional English/Indian accent. What is my mothers maiden name, what is my drivers license number and what is my social security number. I could not believe my ears that a USA company would out source and allow the delivery of all my data to a 3rd world country.....KNOWN historically as software pirates, Music CD Pirates, and DVD Pirates and the developers of mass VIRUSES worldwide on Microsoft Windows platform. We all know by reading the News that Thailand and India today are also the number one credit card and identity theft hot spots in world. Our personal DATA can not be allowed to be released to the public or foreign countries as this would cause economic terror within the USA. Not all people in India or Thailand are criminals however with low income countries and countries that don't like the USA due to political reasons Americans need to close the door on our PRIVATE DATA for obvious security reasons. JP http://www.usarealtorsdirectory.com/

    5. Re:Looking at the wrong records get you caught by chord.wav · · Score: 1

      Seems there is some sort of alert when you request data for famous people.

      Now, isn't that in itself cause for a lawsuit?

    6. Re:Looking at the wrong records get you caught by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 1

      the girl they're stalking It's not stalking! It's intelligence!
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
  14. The goat. by iknownuttin · · Score: 1
    Surprisingly, the contractor was fired and the two workers weren't? I'm not sure why this happened, ... Unions might be protecting their jobs. If it where up to me, everyone who access anything inappropriate would have been terminated on the spot or as close to it as possible to know for sure they did it. You won't have too many people sneaking a peak when it will cost them their jobs.

    What you said and the Contractor was the "goat". Hey everybody, we fired someone over this! And I agree with everything else.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
  15. Re:3 days old 'news' by Headcase88 · · Score: 1

    That's another thing, they used to dupe stories within 3 days of the original posting, sometimes on the same day. Sometimes you would see a front page consisting of nothing but the same story by the same contributor repeated over and over again. Ah, the good old days.

    --
    "When the atomic bomb goes off there's devastation...but when the atomic bong goes off there's celebraaaaation!"
  16. Getting the warm fuzzies on Government security by DigitAl56K · · Score: 0, Redundant

    Makes you feel good about RealID, doesn't it? :)

  17. You are soooo right! by iknownuttin · · Score: 5, Interesting
    What galls me is that, apparently, the database has a flag that can be set for "famous people", which causes a supervisor alert whenever the file is accessed. Where is the special alert for the rest of us? We're the ones whose data could be abused to wreak havoc on our lives and finances.

    Oh God Yes!!! I agree so much with that statement.

    I don't know about you, but there's no way in hell I could walk into a bank and say that I'm Barak Obama; regardless of the documentation I have (I'm short and all white.) Or Hillary for that matter - I'm male. But, I could walk in with any one of other hundreds of thousands of identities and wreak havoc. My banker told me that she gets at least one person a week trying to steal someone's identity. Hence the endless questions when opening an account. It's also for the (non) PATRIOT Act bullshit - but that's another topic.

    --
    I prefer Flambe as apposed flamebait.
    1. Re:You are soooo right! by dlanod · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Don't let the fact that you're male stop you impersonating Hillary Clinton. After all, it hasn't stopped Hillary.

    2. Re:You are soooo right! by suckmysav · · Score: 1

      Hmmmm, maybe you could try Richie Sambora then?

      --
      "You can't fight in here, this is the war room!"
  18. What if these were regular people? by sean22190 · · Score: 1

    Would Obama be pushing as hard for an investigation if it had been Joe Shmoe's passport that had been compromised? It's nice to know that he's willing to spend the U.S. citizens' money for his own personal interests.

    1. Re:What if these were regular people? by haus · · Score: 1

      If you are a regular person, you do not have privacy. One of the radio pieces (NPR) on this story discussed that one of the now infamous events took place in a training class where the trainees where told look up the records of a relative, but instead looked up Hillary.

      So because the student looked up Mrs. Clinton, vice cousin Bob this is a violation. Although I am not exactly sure how we come to accept that cousin Bob can have his records pulled for no reason, but the famous and wealthy are to have protection.

  19. The biggest issue is being completely missed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    At the beginning of the week, Stanley, the outsourcing services providing who employed the contractors responsible for the snooping, was awarded a $600 million five year contract to continue providing services for the State Department.

    Am I the only one who finds it a bit convenient that word of the snooping wasn't released until two days after the contract was awarded, over two months after the first snooping against Obama occurred? You'd almost think they had some friends in high places who made sure it didn't become public, since that's the kind of revelation that could have put a big roadblock on their contract award.

    I wonder what those involved in suppressing the information will be receiving from Stanley? A cushy job or consulting contract? Campaign contributions for high ranking State Department staffers who might be thinking about a run for Congress in 2010 should the republicans lose the White House?

    1. Re:The biggest issue is being completely missed! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It gets even weirder when you add the fact that the CEO of the contracting firm that employed the other snooper is one of Obama's advisors. Source

    2. Re:The biggest issue is being completely missed! by gabrieltss · · Score: 1

      This is how our political systems works right now - corruption - pay offs - lobbiests... The is EXACTLY the kind of cr@p Obama is wanting to put a stop to! Vote for Hillary or McCain and this kind of stuff WILL continue if not get worse....

      --
      The Truth is a Virus!!!
  20. Democracy advocates? by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    OK, one last time, democracy and freedom have no inherent connection to one another. What you want is a liberal, accountable government which would make you a "liberty advocate," not a "democracy advocate."

    I could care less about the "state of democracy" in America. What I want is the state of the Constitution, something that often is sacrificed by public approval.

    1. Re:Democracy advocates? by cmacb · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I agree with the point you are trying to make regarding the two terms, but as a practical matter are there any governments with a significant amount of freedom for individuals that are not also democracies?

      It certainly makes more sense to confound freedom and democracy than it does to confound liberty and liberal, certainly in modern use. I'm very much in favor of liberty, which is why I've never considered myself a liberal (in the modern sense). Federal government insertion into every aspect of our lives can't coexist with liberty and it doesn't matter which party is pushing it or what good excuse they have for it.

      There are somewhere on the order of thousands of people with access to the data in question here, and some of them (DBAs for example) can probably access it without leaving a trace (since they are the ones coding the tracing mechanisms).

      You can't have a universal passport system, or a universal drivers license, voter ID card, Social Security database or the ultimate health care system people seem to fantasize about without enormous potential for abuse and if anyone should realize this it should be the readers of /. (some of them anyway).

    2. Re:Democracy advocates? by DaleGlass · · Score: 1
      Come again? Democracy works only if the population is informed and in control.

      How can you have a working democracy if the population isn't free? Let's see what Wikipedia says about that:

      Political freedom is the absence of interference with the sovereignty of an individual by the use of coercion or aggression. The members of a free society would have full dominion over their public and private lives. The opposite of a free society would be a totalitarian state, which highly restricts political freedom in order to regulate almost every aspect of behavior.

      Note: I'm going with Wikipedia here intentionally because I expect it to be biased towards the American concepts in such matters.

      So for example. Take away the freedoms of association, assembly, press, religion and speech. Quite totalitarian. What kind of democracy are you going to get in a state where citizens can't form associations or political parties, press is restricted to follow the government agenda, the religion is whatever the state says it is and nothing else, and if you say something unpopular you suddenly vanish?
    3. Re:Democracy advocates? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The GP is arguing that you can have freedom without democracy, not the other way around. If you define "democracy" as direct democracy (as opposed to representative government) then Thomas Jefferson, among others, would have agreed.

    4. Re:Democracy advocates? by perlchild · · Score: 1

      People confuse the two, mostly because you can't have democracy without freedom. So they wrongly think as long as they are democratic, they are safe.

    5. Re:Democracy advocates? by maxume · · Score: 1

      It's more than that. Democracy only implies a particular type of freedom. A democratic rule that you can only wear pink t-shirts is quite a bit less free than an autocratic decree that you can wear whatever you want.

      (there are bound to be decisions that are both controversial and have negative impacts for some people, so lets not focus on the fact that we are talking about t-shirts or that they are pink)

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  21. Some things should be kept private. by edwardpickman · · Score: 1

    Guess some one is going to be regretting that little trip to Mistress Mandy's Island of Pain now aren't they.

  22. Outrageous and Unfair by tomharvey · · Score: 5, Funny

    How dare they NOT snoop Ron Paul's passport records? He's still running for president, you know. http://ronpaul2008.com/

    1. Re:Outrageous and Unfair by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They did, but he doesn't have the "famous person" flag ticked on.

    2. Re:Outrageous and Unfair by Hillgiant · · Score: 1

      I thought libertarians didn't believe in passports....

      --
      -
  23. Snooping in Passports? Yet we want them to... by SirStanley · · Score: 2, Informative

    So we're concerned about the relatively innocuous data that is found in passport files? Thank god they don't keep track of our health records! Oh wait... that may be coming next.

    --
    --------========+++Dont Feed The Lab Techs+++========--------
  24. The Dangers of Prejudice by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We should judge a person by their actions and not their words. The fact that Obama choose Mr. Wright as his spiritual teacher for 20 years and included Mr. Wright in his election staff speaks well for Mr. Obama's thinking and actions. Words are easy to manipulate and it is unlikely that Obama's recent speech was written by Mr. Obama anyway. Mr. Obama has a powerful and power hungry staff including his wife that will do anything to get him elected to power.

    But clearly this man Mr. Obama is not to be trusted with the future of our great country. And regardless that he is 'fashionably black' and that many of you have some desire to prove to yourself or to others that you are not prejudice and that you like 'black people' with an attitude of 'See, I like black people, I'm voting for a black person,' such an attitude of voting for a person because of their race is the definition of prejudice.

    If Mr. Obama had a lighter skin tone, there is no way he would be tolerated in as much he is aligned with a violent religious group, and never says anything substantial. He is partly running on 'a premise of guilt' that if you don't vote for him, it is because you don't like black people. A manipulative premise that is certain to have disastrous consequences for America and the world, for we should have as our country's leader someone with wisdom and knowledge, not someone hungry for power.

  25. Special Treatment for Special People by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    When it happens to Commander Taco or Cowboy Neal, nobody even notices.

  26. How about understanding who owns the records? by twitter · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The issue illustrated is that clerks can get anything stored. Governments and companies like to pretend they are better than others when they keep things they should not. Improper access proves the lie, not that passport records are inherently damaging.

    The issue is really about what records should be kept and who owns them. The public does not own the record of my travel unless I'm doing public work. I'm the only person who should be able to make that kind of information available when I chose. The state should not waste money tracking things which can only be abused.

    Transparency is not a a substitute for doing whats right in the first place. It's not an equalizer when there's a power difference because it only removes one tiny piece of the difference. Your boss can still fire you, your school can expel you and so on and so forth. When someone does not like you and they have information about you and they can make rules that harm you, they will.

    --

    Friends don't help friends install M$ junk.

  27. The Real Question... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    The real question to me is, what is actually in there that is so helpful, or harmful, to other people besides idle curiosity? Unless some candidate outright lied on their application, how useful really is this information in the first place?

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
  28. Real ID iots. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    My current license is RealID-compliant, the old one was 10 years old, had a renewal sticker that had worn off the renewal date, and I only got a new one because a store return clerk refused it. DMV accepted it, though, and now my portrait resides in some computer database. Wonder if they run these things through a facial recognition thingy to find the bad guys.. Guess they didn't knock my door down, so I must be a good guy, or never posed for pictures during my misdeeds.

  29. Much Ado About Nothing by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The passport file only contains basic biographical information name, address, country of origin, etc.

    What these contractors looked at was hardly "sensitive".

    Again the media and politicians blows this stuff out of proportion.

    Minimum-wage clerks at any credit bureau have access to far more.

    1. Re:Much Ado About Nothing by skoaldipper · · Score: 1

      Well, just looking at my passport, one might also extrapolate from my itinerary that I was selling secrets to the whole eastern Chinese seabord. Or, at least a political enemy might attempt to do so. Or, might just brute force demagogue me into answering media charged questions at the bare minimum.

      End Transmission. Over?

      --
      I hope, when they die, cartoon characters have to answer for their sins.
    2. Re:Much Ado About Nothing by toddestan · · Score: 1

      I think the big fuss is that accessing the passport was ILLEGAL, not the actual information accessed.

  30. You're short some information. by raehl · · Score: 5, Informative

    All three people who accessed the information were employees of contractors. Some were fired immediately by the contractor before the State Department learned about it. The others the State Department specifically asked that they NOT be fired so they had some leverage to get them to cooperate with the ensuing investigation. (If they were fired, they wouldn't have to do anything unless actually subpoenaed.) Apparently if the state department had not intervened, the contractor would have fired them already. (The exception being the trainee who looked up Hillary instead of a family member during the training exercise - that was (probably properly) viewed as a training error and that employee just had the error explained.)

    Regardless, while this is private information, it's not exactly SENSITIVE private information. There's really nothing in these files that isn't a matter of public record (when you applied, where you lived when you applied, name, birthdate) or isn't going to be terribly interesting for any political reason (SS#).

    It's pretty safe to assume these breaches were merely the result of idle curiosity, as there's really no other reason to even bother looking at these files with such uninteresting information. That would also explain the fairly wide access thousands of people have to these files.

    And to the GP:

    Yes, an Obama campaign supporter (donated $2,300) runs one of the contractors whose employees looked at the files. But a Clinton campaing supporter (donated $1,000) runs the other one. Pretty much a wash, unless you're McCain.

    1. Re:You're short some information. by sneakers563 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Regardless, while this is private information, it's not exactly SENSITIVE private information. There's really nothing in these files that isn't a matter of public record (when you applied, where you lived when you applied, name, birthdate) or isn't going to be terribly interesting for any political reason (SS#).
      Actually, that's not true. There was a news story yesterday that said that passport records also contain the results of any background checks the government runs when deciding whether to issue you a passport. Why dig up dirt on someone yourself when you can have the government do it for you?
    2. Re:You're short some information. by raehl · · Score: 1

      That wasn't in the articles I'd read, but doesn't mean you're not right.

      But, any background check conducted for passport purposes is just going to be to determine whether you're a citizen or not. It's not like they're conducting NSA/CIA-style security clearance checks on every Tom Dick and Harry who gets a passport.

  31. Re:3 days old 'news' by MobileTatsu-NJG · · Score: 1, Offtopic

    3 days old 'news'
    I miss the old Slashdot. You miss week old news?

    I'm not saying this to be funny, but I've been around Slashdot since 2000, and this was ALWAYS a complaint.
    --

    "I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)

  32. OK, so you don't care about privacy... by hyades1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The single most elementary premise upon which a free society is based is that the state has absolutely no right to interfere in any way whatsoever with a citizen who is going about his legal business. None. Any infringement on this standard is the beginning of the end, because it places the welfare of the state above the welfare of the people who are supposed to be its masters.

    Yes, sometimes terrorists and common criminals will take advantage of this freedom to inflict damage. That's part of the price you pay. If you aren't willing to pay, or even have your children pay, then pack up and move to Communist China. You and your children will be safe there, as long as you keep your mouths shut.

    I can go on for ages with reasons why people who are supposed to be your servants, like politicians, cops and bureaucrats, are always so anxious to persuade you that just a little tiny surrender will save the children and kittens and puppies. It won't, and they'll want more. And more. And more.

    And never forget that this one of those cases where mutual accommodation is possible in only one direction. If I impose rigorous privacy laws, I can agree that you don't value privacy and leave you to whatever lifestyle pleases you. You aren't affected in any way, because you can still give as much information as you want to anybody you want to have it. On the other hand, when you impose your anti-privacy laws, there's no room for me to be left alone with my choice.

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
    1. Re:OK, so you don't care about privacy... by icebike · · Score: 1

      > the state has absolutely no right to interfere in any way whatsoever with a
      > citizen who is going about his legal business.

      What part of looking constitutes interference ?

      They have to present this passport to government officials upon arrival in every country they visit.
      Why should they expect privacy in this matter?

      Your argument is more valid with regard to the requirement for passports in the first place, but seems wide of the mark for those expecting privacy once they have bought into the requirement to hold a passport.

      --
      Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
    2. Re:OK, so you don't care about privacy... by fishbowl · · Score: 2, Informative


      >They have to present this passport to government officials upon arrival in every country they visit.
      >Why should they expect privacy in this matter?

      There is more information in the State Department's passport file than what is on the passport.
      In particular, it lists the amount of money you have taken into and out of the country, and there
      is information specific to people who travel with diplomatic credentials. The passport itself may
      have visa stamps, but it does not contain transcripts of interviews with the agents at points of
      entry, and so forth.

      On a more mundane level, your passport also does not have your address (check it!), does not have your
      last 3 addresses, your mother's maiden name, your social security number, both your parents addresses
      and social security numbers, those of your spouse, or really very much of the information at all that
      was provided for the application. Take this to the level of a person getting a passport that indicates
      diplomatic credentials, and there is much, much more data.

      It's a pretty serious incident being swept under the rug.

      --
      -fb Everything not expressly forbidden is now mandatory.
  33. Re:3 days old 'news' by leamanc · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Indeed, it's been a complaint for a long time, even though Malda and his gang don't claim to publish the latest news in the fastest time possible. In fact, they would rather sit on a story and see how it unfolds so that the discussion can have some perspective.

    In fact, there's even a FAQ entry addressing this topic. If you want the latest news as soon as it happens, there's other sites to visit. Like others have said, go to Digg for the links, and come to Slashdot for the discussion.

    Yes, "In Soviet Russia, frist psot runs Natalie Portman's Linux" is more insightful than what you read on Digg.

    --
    :q!
  34. Why the assumption of privacy ? by icebike · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why should anyone running for a public office (or holding one) have any assumption of privacy for a US passport?

    I would think entry/exit data should be public information, as well as each country visited using that passport, which after all, was provided at public expense, backed by the tax payers, carries with it an expectation of the US government using its influence to secure the safe travel of these people who are de-facto targets of people who would harm the US.

    I could make the same case for anyone, really, why should you expect your world travels to be a private matter? What could be more public than world travel?

    At most these workers would seem to have violated an unauthorized use of computing resource rules. The fact that it was a political candidate LESSENS the infraction in my opinion.

    The fact that they WERE ABLE TO access the information means heads should roll, but not their heads. Why aren't the IT folks being keel hauled instead of these drones? What kind of security does this agency have where the biggest impediment to access is a "thou shalt not"?

    --
    Sig Battery depleted. Reverting to safe mode.
  35. Or the exact opposite, domino-style. by shyberfoptik · · Score: 1

    This could give people more reason to want private information stored centrally.

    We've got three candidates for Presidential candidates with, as far as opposing voters are concerned, questionable pasts. It's media-fueled. Barack may be a closet Muslim, Hillary has a role in Clinton administration conspiracy theory, and McCain could be fudging his military service ala Kerry and Bush. The more info, the better, right?

    "Transparency" is a hot issue. People may welcome this, especially since it's not their information being mined. Why should Presidential candidates have anything to hide? I'd bet most people think they should be scrutinized more than regular citizens are. People will accept, then demand, that candidates should have less privacy than average folks.

    Then they'll think that about anyone running for office. Then teachers and anyone working with children. Then doctors, power plant employees, stock brokers, garbage collectors, and finally all the way down to you and me.

    Better to know who's living next door, right?

    1. Re:Or the exact opposite, domino-style. by Swampash · · Score: 1

      Barack may be a closet Muslim

      He may also be a pedophile.

      He may also be a member of Al Qaeda.

      He may also be part of the Reptilian Agenda.

  36. The real lesson here is... by tiqui · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I do not want some bloated, mis-managed, government agency to have all of my medical records, employment records, or business records. If anybody thinks some sub-contracted flunky at a keyboard will be happy snooping through the passport records of his fellow citizens after their medical records become available as part of some similarly unsecured, poorly engineered, unsupervised federal bureaucracy, you're kidding yourself. This stuff is rapidly spinning out of control and the only way to put the brakes on it is to head back toward what the country started with: a small, tightly focused federal government that keeps records on its citizens to the minimum degree practical.

    This situation was bad enough when the idiots in government had our data. It gets worse now that government is outsourcing work to non-government people who will never be properly held to account; it opens the way for outside entities to gain access to the data by hiring people to do temporary data harvesting jobs, injecting those people into those outsourced government positions, then acting shocked and "firing" them when they get caught (with bonuses and options to be re-hired later by another division...) That may not be what happened here, but it will happen as the government gets more of our data and that data becomes more interesting/valuable to outsiders.

    Your privacy, like your reputation, is not a physical thing; once you hand it over or damage it, you can never get it back.

  37. Evidence? by forand · · Score: 1

    Everything I have read states that the names of the contractors who did the search and the companies they work for have been withheld. What evidence do you put forth that an Obama paid advisor was also a contractor at the State Department and was responsible for querying the records? Since you provided no evidence it would seem likely you do not have any.

  38. George Walker Bush [w] Re:What's private records? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So GWB BF'ed HS Chart-Off, who BF'ed TAC CEO who BF'ed "Nominal Nothing Employee" ... to do a bit of snooping that any otherwise rational human being with an IQ above 90 (this knocks out GWB and HS Sec) would just laugh at and fart a narly.

    I'm looking forward to the CNN live cam on the Mall giving the shots of GWB, Cheney and the other Cabinet Ofcrs being arrested, shackled, and carted off for execution at GitMo.

    LOL, what a day that will be!

    Toodles

  39. In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by n+dot+l · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Don't ask why or apply logic, just accept the fact that we got a blow in for whatever we are supposed to support this week. Christ. This comes up often enough it deserves its own saying. Let's make it this: In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you!

    No, seriously, this just keeps coming up and it's retarded. Slashdot readers are anything but a representative sample of American (or any) society. Of course we don't reflect it, let alone the full range of the political (left-right) spectrum.

    When the editors post a good story, we get between two and five hundred posts discussing how and why this is alarming, what the possible implications may be, etc. Once moderation is applied we end up with a very high signal to noise ratio. Dissenting views are pretty much always modded up, except when they're trolls or flamebait (and even then, people often take the time to read them and reply). Other sources are often quoted or linked to, and those posts get modded up too. In other words, we get a good, interesting (possibly insightful, or informative, sometimes even funny) discussion.

    When the editors post something stupid, we get between two and five hundred posts pointing out the error and ripping on the editor that put it on the front page. Occasionally, a thread or two spawns discussing some tangentially related subject that ends up being interesting on its own merrits.

    As far as I'm concerned, the system is working as intended. Seriously, who would you rather discuss politics with? The Digg crowd? The people that leave comments on Youtube? Seriously, answer that question and go there. Then come back and tell us what you find.

    Haven't you noticed slashdot becoming more of a political "tool" then a place to discuss news for nerds. No. Most of us are capable of independent thought. That's why we're all here, sharing our thoughts and adding the insights of others to our own. At the very least we're sharpening our ideas by arguing against those we disagree with.

    The fact that we often agree in large numbers speaks more to the fact that we're a self-selected group than anything else. The fact that the editors pander to us says more about their lust for precious ad revenue than their political views. Not all herds are made of sheep. And even if they were, kdawson (it's him everyone bitches about, right? I honesty don't pay attention to the editors' names) sucks at playing sheep-dog.
    1. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by sumdumass · · Score: 0

      It wouldn't be so bad if the politics introduced where neutral in the stories and the users take it from there. But all the stories are Evil Republicans, Baby Eating Bush, and so on.

      This story which was originally about government employees and contract workers inappropriately accessing passport records of presidential candidates and how safe guards in place alerted the proper people so no damage was done and those responsible are being punished. Instead it got hijacked and is now being used as a reason for not doing RealID and to blast the president over domestic spying because someone could inappropriately access the information. And it does this only by ignoring that fact that we caught the people doing it relatively close to when it happened, they were punished, and steps are being taken to see how any of the information might have been used.

      Now all this and the original article never made it to slashdot until someone could put a spin on it to blast Bush for "anything possible" or "breathing". That is what is meant about it becoming a "tool". The articles are introduced to push an agenda. It isn't that people have an opinion.

    2. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by n+dot+l · · Score: 3, Interesting

      It wouldn't be so bad if the politics introduced where neutral in the stories and the users take it from there. But all the stories are Evil Republicans, Baby Eating Bush, and so on.

      Powers-that-be-bashing is always going to be the order of the day among a largely libertarian crowd. The editors are just clumsily following along with the trends we set. I could be wrong, I guess we could test that by picking out opposed stories that made it to the firehose, and see how their chances of hitting the front page relates to their rating from before.

      Now if you want to talk about the mainstream media (where many of these stories come from), well, that's something different entirely. I can't really talk about it though since the only US news I watch is largely editorial since, well, that's pretty much all the US networks air. I get actual news from sources like the BBC since I find they do a better job of separating the statements "X happened" and the obligatory "Y is upset about it". And even that's not 100% objective (despite being factual).

      This story which was originally about government employees and contract workers inappropriately accessing passport records of presidential candidates and how safe guards in place alerted the proper people so no damage was done and those responsible are being punished.

      Yes, that was originally the story. Then we found out that the data was first accessed months ago, and that low-level management silenced the alarms (which, as you say, worked) and "dealth with it" before anyone with the authority to properly investigate got wind of it. Basically, the State Department's employees are either complete idiots, or they fear their bosses more than betraying the public's trust. Either way, whoever's in charge and their subordinates are responsible for allowing (if not fostering) such an environment.

      Stories change as they are told, and the concerns raised by the State Department's apparent incompetence are now part of this story.

      Instead it got hijacked and is now being used as a reason for not doing RealID and to blast the president over domestic spying because someone could inappropriately access the information.

      Nothing is ever as simple as "X happened". Related issues are always going to be brought up and discussed. Most Western media sucks at bringing those issues up (not much time left for that once you're done sensationalizing, I fear). I'm glad the Ars article did it, and I'm glad it happens here.

      Now all this and the original article never made it to slashdot until someone could put a spin on it to blast Bush for "anything possible" or "breathing".

      From TFA (read it again if you think I've snipped too much, and all emphasis is, of course, mine):

      State Department officials insisted ... the contractors were motivated solely by "imprudent curiosity," ... Lawrence Eagleburger, who was George H. W. Bush's Secretary of State in 1992 ... told MSNBC, "It's pretty clear to me that this was not done for political purposes."

      Regardless of whether the candidates' records were accessed with politics primarily in mind, the whole incident provides a vivid illustration of what's at stake in the current national debates over privacy and the limits of executive power.

      ... the major problem with Real ID is that local DMV and law enforcement officials will have access to an unprecedented amount of sensitive information on anyone with a Real ID ... imagine all of that data in the hands of a crooked sheriff who's fighting off a reformist challenger ...

      The author isn't bashing Bush over RealID. He's pointing out that the RealID information will be even more accessible than the passport data, and arguing that if something as well-protected as a presidential candi

    3. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by ruprechtjones · · Score: 1

      Best slashdot post ever. This sheep agrees. We're all still independent assholes here, and proud of it.

      --
      Kip Hawley is an idiot.
    4. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by Jah-Wren+Ryel · · Score: 1

      Seriously, who would you rather discuss politics with? The Digg crowd? The people that leave comments on Youtube? Seriously, answer that question and go there. Then come back and tell us what you find. Try BigThink.

      I personally think they are doomed to failure because they are too general,
      but their goal at least is to be the place to go when you want informed
      discussion about "big" issues.
      --
      When information is power, privacy is freedom.
    5. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      Powers-that-be-bashing is always going to be the order of the day among a largely libertarian crowd. The editors are just clumsily following along with the trends we set. I could be wrong, I guess we could test that by picking out opposed stories that made it to the firehose, and see how their chances of hitting the front page relates to their rating from before.

      Like I said, I don't mind when it is the crowd. I checked the firehose too and found several submissions about the breaches themselves which where basically neutral that didn't make it in which covered the original story. Kdawson, the article submitter, is an actual editor. This wasn't put in by the firehose. If your suggesting that Slashdot is simply cheer leading a portion of it's audience, and I shouldn't bitch about it, I would think your wrong. In almost everything else, they make an effort to be nutral.

      Now if you want to talk about the mainstream media (where many of these stories come from), well, that's something different entirely. I can't really talk about it though since the only US news I watch is largely editorial since, well, that's pretty much all the US networks air. I get actual news from sources like the BBC since I find they do a better job of separating the statements "X happened" and the obligatory "Y is upset about it". And even that's not 100% objective (despite being factual).

      Yea, the main stream media is whacked. I didn't think Slashdot was mainstream media though, hence my disappointment.

      Yes, that was originally the story. Then we found out that the data was first accessed months ago, and that low-level management silenced the alarms (which, as you say, worked) and "dealth with it" before anyone with the authority to properly investigate got wind of it. Basically, the State Department's employees are either complete idiots, or they fear their bosses more than betraying the public's trust. Either way, whoever's in charge and their subordinates are responsible for allowing (if not fostering) such an environment.

      Nobody has claimed it stayed in the low level managment. It just didn't make it to senior levels. Mid level managment could have been fully aware and by the time uper management broke the story, they had already investigated the motivations and declared them to be "curiosity" oriented. You, probably convinced by the exact same same reporting that I am talking about, have formed some opinion of malfeasance in the state department which doesn't reflect reality. Three people access files inappropriately, One was a trainee the other two where contract employees maintaining the systems. All three have been investigates, mitigated and punished and the situation has been made public. Nothing sounds anything like the picture your painting there.

      Nothing is ever as simple as "X happened". Related issues are always going to be brought up and discussed. Most Western media sucks at bringing those issues up (not much time left for that once you're done sensationalizing, I fear). I'm glad the Ars article did it, and I'm glad it happens here.

      Yes, it is that simple. X happened- it was dealt with accordingly. The only think you can assume is that unrelated issues being thrusted into the same light would be handled appropriately too.

      The author isn't bashing Bush over RealID. He's pointing out that the RealID information will be even more accessible than the passport data, and arguing that if something as well-protected as a presidential candidate's passport data can be compromized or misused, then the same can (and will repeatadely) happen with the RealID data.

      It is interesting but he forgets the fact that these people got busted. If the sheriff or anyone got access to this information inappropriately, they would have been busted. If the information was used in politically motivated ways, they would be prosecute

    6. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

      This wasn't put in by the firehose. If your suggesting that Slashdot is simply cheer leading a portion of it's audience, and I shouldn't bitch about it, I would think your wrong. In almost everything else, they make an effort to be nutral.

      You might be right. I still think we control kdawson more than he controls us, still based the majority of the replies replies to the retarded things he's posted in the past.

      Nobody has claimed it stayed in the low level managment. It just didn't make it to senior levels. Mid level managment could have been fully aware and by the time uper management broke the story, they had already investigated the motivations and declared them to be "curiosity" oriented.

      Then why was upper-level management clueless about it for so long after the story broke? Why are they now launching an investigation, if one was done earlier? I'm as suspicious of spin as anyone, but media spin doesn't explain why the high-level officers couldn't simply grab whatever report was filed months ago and say, "See here, we checked, they're not connected to foreigners or criminals or anything, and their testimony matches the evidence, this was clearly just a mistake and it has been corrected." Fine, maybe the reports (related to extremely important files) were lost, OK - that's still evidence of a poorly run organization.

      You, probably convinced by the exact same same reporting that I am talking about, have formed some opinion of malfeasance in the state department which doesn't reflect reality.

      Hah. It takes much more than Keith Olbermann's Special Comments to make me believe something. In this case I'm convinced by the administration's failure to produce convincing evidence of having done their jobs properly. If they'd done their jobs and knew it they could have said, "We already dealt with this, here's the proof." Instead they're launching an investigation - as though it takes a special task force to find a fairly recent report in what should be a well-organized secure storage facility.

      If the sheriff or anyone got access to this information inappropriately, they would have been busted.

      By whom? And who busts that guy if he's in on it too? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      If the information was used in politically motivated ways, they would be prosecuted.

      When, before or after the media loudly destroys the man's political carreer (and then quietly appologizes for the mistake)? Again, what are the guarantees? We still don't know who actually leaked Valerie Plame's name to the press, and even if we did her career is finished anyway.

      In other words, this fear mongering evel sheriff couldn't happen unless several steps in government positions where behind it. And to that end, you don't need RealID or anything else, if there is that much high level support for your actions, everything feared could be orchestrated without it.

      Of course, the concern is that this reduces the number of people you need to have in on the scheme. If the information is in many separate places, the crooked sheriff needs connections (or dirt on employees) in each of those places. If it's all in one place, then all he needs is for whoever watches him to look away for a minute - perhaps distracted by all the other sheriffs he oversees, perhaps by a bribe or a blackmail threat. It dramatically lowers the bar for abuse, which is what the article is talking about.

      And if the Firehose put the article in, I could agree with you. It didn't, it was posted directly.

      That's not what I was asking. I was asking, "Are the editors deliberately marginalizing views contrary to their own, despite great support among the Slashdot readership?" Echoing our opinions for cash isn't stellar journalism, I agree, but neither is it a conspiracy to deceive.

      Think about this. If Situation X happens and is reported as "X happened", h

    7. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      You might be right. I still think we control kdawson more than he controls us, still based the majority of the replies replies to the retarded things he's posted in the past.

      Well, now that you mention it, it does seem that most of what he posts if motivated in some way unless it comes from the firehose. Lets, see when did he start posting articles? Looks like sometime around augast of 2006, right about the time I said it has become a tool. Well, that is if you overlook the '69 article that no one responded to. (which was actually posted sometime around 2005.

      Then why was upper-level management clueless about it for so long after the story broke? Why are they now launching an investigation, if one was done earlier? I'm as suspicious of spin as anyone, but media spin doesn't explain why the high-level officers couldn't simply grab whatever report was filed months ago and say, "See here, we checked, they're not connected to foreigners or criminals or anything, and their testimony matches the evidence, this was clearly just a mistake and it has been corrected." Fine, maybe the reports (related to extremely important files) were lost, OK - that's still evidence of a poorly run organization.

      The state department doesn't directly run these devisions. They have other managers who do. Your basically asking why the board of directors for the parent company of some fortune 500 company doesn't know that Person X was fired for Y actions at their offspring company. While yes, it happened that the parent company should ultimately know, it isn't like Condoleezza Rice or President Bush should be briefed on everything that happened. Someone made a judgment call that made them embarrassed feeling that the situations where handled and no big deal now.

      And you seriously don't think Condoleezza Rice saying that these breaches were motivated by curiosity and not politically or maliciously motivated isn't the result of an investigation that already happened? Sure you got calls for further investigations, Those are however politically motivated. As long as certain people can look like the victim, they gain politically with some. And we are in an election cycle- even if it is only primaries.

      Hah. It takes much more than Keith Olbermann's Special Comments to make me believe something. In this case I'm convinced by the administration's failure to produce convincing evidence of having done their jobs properly. If they'd done their jobs and knew it they could have said, "We already dealt with this, here's the proof." Instead they're launching an investigation - as though it takes a special task force to find a fairly recent report in what should be a well-organized secure storage facility.

      Your reacting to fallacious allegations in the first place. They will never be able to satisfy you because what you think it the case isn't happening or they don't use specific wording. do they really have to say X is the proof? Knowing about the problems, the motivations of them, the disciplinary actions taken, the statements of the system work and all, just isn't enough right? You won't be convinced they did their jobs until they hold a blank piece of paper in their hands and say "here is the proof". Do you see how silly that seems?

      By whom? And who busts that guy if he's in on it too? Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?

      By whom? The same people that caught the people who did the inappropriate access in the story we are talking about. That was the point, X happened, it wasn't supposed to, we tracked and caught who did X, determined it wasn't political or malice oriented- just curiosity, and they have been punished.

      As for who watched the watchmen, the honest watchmen who can report or whistle blow to the public with little to no fear of retribution. If there is one thing this administration has done well,

    8. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by n+dot+l · · Score: 1
      Ok. Let's drop the groupthink part of this discussion. I think we're at the point where we're just repeating ourselves and going nowhere. Actually, I'm sure we've already reached that point.

      The state department doesn't directly run these devisions. They have other managers who do. That really isn't central to my argument. Nor is the Bush administration. I'm just saying I see a case of a badly run department in charge of sensitive personal information. This could be a story about a leak from social security during the Clinton (or any other) administration and I'd still hold it up as an example of why we should not trust such organizations with even more power.

      And you seriously don't think Condoleezza Rice saying that these breaches were motivated by curiosity and not politically or maliciously motivated isn't the result of an investigation that already happened?

      You won't be convinced they did their jobs until they hold a blank piece of paper in their hands and say "here is the proof". Do you see how silly that seems? I'm sorry, but accountants working for small firms are held to higher standards. They have to cover checklists and store all sorts of intermediate working papers to back up their work, all of which gets hauled out during any sort of audit to show that the work has been done correctly and in good faith. Where's the equivalent paper trail from the passport department? You don't seriously think they questioned the employees, consulted with their security people, double-checked with the appropriate authorities to make sure these people weren't trying to spy on the presidential candidates, and followed whatever other procedures they have without putting anything down on paper, do you?

      They should have a hell of a lot more than a blank sheet to show for their trouble. Even if they release a copy of that folder with every other sentence removed for security reasons, it would be more than they've shown thus far. A set of partial memos can be checked for internal consistency, if nothing else. Here we have to take them at their word - and no authority should ever just be taken at their word, particularly when they've under scrutiny for incompetence if not malfeasance.

      Most crooks only break the law when they "think" they can get away with it. Or when the cost of their crime is less than the reward. You don't think a rabidly (say) left-wing Sheriff would risk his freedom to see a right-wing politician lose his power? What about the Sheriff that's promised a massive financial reward after he's released from his few years in prison? What about the sheriff that's being blackmailed?

      Anyways, the way this passport story played out, the sheriff would have been caught and dealt with accordingly. As I said earlier, it becomes far easier for the Sheriff to do whatever mischeif he has in mind, whether he's later prosecuted or not. He can access the data at the end of his workday, sell it or leak it on his way home, and be verry sorry for his actions, and more than willing to cooperate fully and pay the (reduced, for good behavior) price for his crimes by morning. And that's only if he hasn't figured out how the system works and how to do the deed without being caught.

      I much prefer the scenario where he has to breach many systems over a period of time to get all the pieces he needs. It makes it harder for him to do the deed, and it also makes it far more likely that he'll be caught since he'll have to deal with multiple organizations - each of which will have its own, different, security systems in place.
    9. Re:In Soviet Slashdot, groupthink posts you! by sumdumass · · Score: 1

      That really isn't central to my argument. Nor is the Bush administration. I'm just saying I see a case of a badly run department in charge of sensitive personal information. This could be a story about a leak from social security during the Clinton (or any other) administration and I'd still hold it up as an example of why we should not trust such organizations with even more power.

      And I'm saying that the "department" handled it appropriately but only erred in directly reporting it to the political entity in charge of it. In either case, clinton or bush, the situation was under control irrespective of their knowledge.

      I'm sorry, but accountants working for small firms are held to higher standards. They have to cover checklists and store all sorts of intermediate working papers to back up their work, all of which gets hauled out during any sort of audit to show that the work has been done correctly and in good faith. Where's the equivalent paper trail from the passport department? You don't seriously think they questioned the employees, consulted with their security people, double-checked with the appropriate authorities to make sure these people weren't trying to spy on the presidential candidates, and followed whatever other procedures they have without putting anything down on paper, do you?

      First, What makes you think this isn't happening? I mean they know how many times the filed where access, by who, what motivated them, and what information was exposed due to it. Typically, each record access gets logged with an IP and username and an automated check is done to see if the proper paperwork has been filed or completed and if the person has an association to the case the paperwork was filed under. If there is an issue anywhere, it gets followed up on by department heads who have to report to superiors until a certain level of satisfaction is achieved. There is no reason to believe something like this isn't in place. You don't know that it isn't, you have drawn that conclusion somehow though.

      They should have a hell of a lot more than a blank sheet to show for their trouble. Even if they release a copy of that folder with every other sentence removed for security reasons, it would be more than they've shown thus far. A set of partial memos can be checked for internal consistency, if nothing else. Here we have to take them at their word - and no authority should ever just be taken at their word, particularly when they've under scrutiny for incompetence if not malfeasance.

      They shouldn't have to show anything. They are the ones who told us something happened and that it had been dealt with. This was known even before Rice was asked about it. All she did was parrot what the lower managment told her because there is a system in place to take care of this stuff. It is not the position of the board of directors to be investigating departments under delegated authority. I would trust the civil servant who isn't loyal to a politician for his job before I would a someone in a high profile appointed position.

      Or when the cost of their crime is less than the reward. You don't think a rabidly (say) left-wing Sheriff would risk his freedom to see a right-wing politician lose his power? What about the Sheriff that's promised a massive financial reward after he's released from his few years in prison? What about the sheriff that's being blackmailed?

      Where is the change of getting away with it? The entire moral of this story is that the people who inappropriately accessed the information was caught and dealt with before any high level political appointments found out about it. I mean there is a 100% of being busted for abusing the system if this story is any indication. That's the point. If he thinks he can get away with it, he will be in jail or however the punishment deals with it. All the people responsible for the breaches in the main article g

  40. I wonder... by kir · · Score: 0

    I wonder how many times Brittany Spears' or Heath Ledger's passport record was 'illegal' accessed?

    Let's not take our eyes of the ball people. Don't forget the real problems here. Barack is a racist (quite possibly a Marxist). McCain simply has no balls (yes... much respect for Vietnam) and is directly tied into BAU. Hillary is a socialist (not bad if you like that sort of thing) and may be even more tied in to BAU than McCain.

    We Americans are screwed.

    --
    3cx.org - A truly bad website.
  41. Not just ID theft by n+dot+l · · Score: 1

    What's private about passport records? Replying here and not to the GP since I think this adds something to the parent's argument.

    Oh, you can do a lot of nasty things with passport records besides ID theft. For instance, you can have your HR department datamine it to keep out, er, undesirables. And their children too, to the (oh, I don't know, let's say) tenth generation, just 'cuz. What, you've never met anyone that has a thing against immigrants, legal or otherwise?

    I'll stop having something to hide when the rest of humanity stops judging people on their birth place, race, gender, and anything else they have no control over. That and when theives stop favoring the homes of those who've gone on vacation.
  42. Non-story by jadin · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Kind of a non-story for me. Reading articles on this it really seems like it was a curious employee who wasn't paying enough attention to the warnings given and or consequences about private data. Honestly I blame our celebrity lifestyle for this. Everyone is so wrapped up in famous people they forget about what they are authorized to do. I find it hard to judge someone for letting their curiosity get the better of them.

    If you were given the power, how many of you would resist the urge to look up Natalie Portman's [insert your favorite opposite sex celebrity here] passport?

    That's what most of the information is pointing to. (Unless of course this is what they want me to conclude.) Now if it's politically motivated such as Nixon era privacy breaching I'd probably feel differently about it.

  43. Wow! by StefanJ · · Score: 1

    That's the first I've heard of this. Can you supply a link?

  44. Nonsense by DerekLyons · · Score: 2, Insightful
    From the TFA:

    I could spell out the political potential inherent in the executive branch's massive domestic surveillance program by drawing parallels to the government's Vietnam-era spying on anti-war protesters and civil rights leaders like MLK, but I'll leave that as an exercise to the reader.

    Translation: Utterly and completely without cause I'll put in some unrelated hot-button stuff and then try to pretend I didn't.
     
     

    As I've reported previously, the major problem with Real ID is that local DMV and law enforcement officials will have access to an unprecedented amount of sensitive information on anyone with a Real ID--scanned copies of any documents used to establish identity, like birth certificates, bank statements, pay stubs, property tax bills, and so on, not to mention driving histories from other states. Now imagine all of that data in the hands of a crooked sheriff who's fighting off a reformist challenger in a hotly contested election. Do you really want to live in that world?

     
    Translation: Utterly and completely without cause I'll put in some unrelated hot-button stuff and invoke scary scenarios forwarding my own agenda.
     
    Etc... Etc...
     
    And really, that's the whole point of this [Ars Technica] 'news' story - not to tell the news, but to slant it and spin it until it is no longer recognizable and then to attach editorial comments unrelated to main story. If Faux News, CNN, or one of the other big networks did this, Slashdot and the rest of the blogosphere would be up in arms about such journalistic misbehavior.
    1. Re:Nonsense by mrogers · · Score: 1

      And really, that's the whole point of this [Ars Technica] 'news' story - not to tell the news, but to slant it and spin it until it is no longer recognizable and then to attach editorial comments unrelated to main story.

      "Unrelated?" Do you even understand why this is news? Politicians are at risk of intimidation, harrassment or even assassination because of the routine collection and sharing of personal information, and the lax controls over access to that information, that have become normal in our society. This could end up distorting the democratic process. That is the main story.

    2. Re:Nonsense by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      That is the main assumption - and an utterly unfounded one. Because unless there are skeletons hidden there - there practically isn't anything there that isn't already public information or trivially available for the purposes you list. This isn't news at all, but a puff piece disguises as news - and many Slashdot readers either lack the critical thinking skills to tell the difference or simply don't care.
       
      Like the author of the Ars Technica piece, you've substituted handwaving, smokescreens, and "won't anyone think of the children" for facts and actual thought - because the piece panders to your biases. And, as I said, Slashdot will let any crap slide onto the front page so long as it panders to their biases - while castigating other news sources for being equally biased.

  45. Beyond Fear by Mathinker · · Score: 3, Interesting

    > it was our presence in the Middle East that Bin Laden was pissed about.

    Ur, last time i checked, he also doesn't believe in democracy. Let's stop that craziness and then we'll be perfectly safe, right?

    The Wikipedia article on the McVeigh bombing states that the prosecution's hypothesis was that he was driven by hatred of the US because of various things including: tax increases, the Waco siege and Ruby Ridge. After that bombing, you immediately supported the elimination of tax increases and FBI raids on paramilitary organizations, so you would be safer, right?

    Learn to stop cowering in fear. Life has risks and major terrorist attacks are not very high on that list.

    1. Re:Beyond Fear by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      Multle problems here. Many acedemic setting do not allow wikipedia refereces because they are not necesarrily accurate and unbiased and factual so the source is a bad reference.

      Second it was the "procecutions hypothesis", if you think that a prosecutor is aways presenting the facts without also presenting defense arguments, well you only have one side of the debate, not the story.

      Admittedly the OKC bombing was the work of a madman. No rational person is going to bomb and kill so many including innocent children because of tax increases and the Waco siege. Those are just justifications or cover for sociopathic behavior. And I do not feel that relates to the current situation. BTW my brother lives and works in OKC and was close by where he works when that happend and his Church which was close by was damaged as well.

      To answer your question I did not support the elimination of tax increases in fact I have always supported a more progressive tax to protect our country from the concentration of wealth and power which is killing our country now. and I support and supported the FBI in keeping track of para military and cult organizations and when they commit illegal acts should be held accountable. I condemed the overreaction that happened at Waco as it was a needless waste of life.

      That kind of heavy handed "We are the controllers and will do anything to be in control and have you submit" is exactly the attitude we have displayed in Iraq. My point was Saudi Arabia and Iraq are soveriegn nations. It is their home and Bin Laden thought it was a sacrilege our being in the Muslim holy land. Its their country and bombing of the trade center was Bin Ladens response to that. Bin Laden who was in Afganistan not Iraq. So what do we do, invade Afganistan, good, we had him cornered at Tora Bora ,and the camera's showed that we let them all escape out the back way. Obviously Bush really did not want to capture the enemy that gave him so much power and authority at home. The we invade and occupy Iraq????? There were no weapons of mass distruction, Bush knew it, (did you see the Frontline program on Bush's war). Bush had asked people to find justification to go into Iraq even before 911. So the whole thing stinks. There is no good reason we went there and no good reason to stay.

    2. Re:Beyond Fear by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      Multiple problems here. :-)

      1) You are confusing two different wars in Iraq; only the first one preceded 9/11. A lot of your comments are therefore off-topic, and BTW, my comment did not imply that I thought the invasion of Iraq in 2003 was a good idea.

      2) You dismiss my argument by claiming that my example (OKC bombing) was a strawman (for multiple reasons). Yet even if that were the case, you ignore the argument itself, which was presented in the line:

      >> ..., he [Bin Laden] also doesn't believe in democracy. Let's stop that craziness and then we'll be perfectly safe, right?

      My argument is: the danger of international terrorism is tiny compared to other dangers, therefore we should only adjust our behavior to mitigate its small risk if there is almost no cost to doing so.

      Please address this argument. I invite you to consider how much you change your behavior to mitigate your risk of injury in a car accident, and compare it to your risk from international terrorism.

    3. Re:Beyond Fear by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      Almost right.

      "1) You are confusing two different wars in Iraq; only the first one preceded 9/11."

      I was not refering to Iraq I but to Bush II's trying to find reasons to go to war with Iraq even before he was elected, after he was elected and before 911. I think there is good evidence and testimony to that effect, especially former CIA analysts that were presured into finding justifications to go into Iraq.

      As to your other argument. Which I did mistake that you were saying that we can't protect ourselves from angry people and that Bin Laden like the OKC bombers were angry at the United States Government. My point was that that was true about the OKC bomber, a general flayling at the government, whereas Bin Laden had a more specific goal, that of getting our presence out of his country and the holy lands. I don't think he cares about what we do in our own country, just get out of his. I see that as a more reasonable attitude and one that maybe both you and I would support if say France had a military base in New Orleans, just for our safety and protection. That was my point. I see the motivation between the two very different. One could have been solved through some rational process the other probably never.

      As to the risk, I agree it is small and the overreaction of the government smacks of an agenda of keeping and growing central power for the administration and its friends, along with some legitimate concerns about terrorism as a public health matter.

      I see that the terroist issue should be handled as a police action and not a military one, as I think most if not all terroist authorities the I have heard comment on it have said.

    4. Re:Beyond Fear by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      > I see that as a more reasonable attitude and one that maybe both you and I would support if say France
      > had a military base in New Orleans, just for our safety and protection.

      Your analogy is a strawman unless you pad it out with the remaining details: in that analogous reality, France is much more powerful than the US, and the military base is there by mutual agreement of the legal governments of the two nations.

      > I don't think he cares about what we do in our own country, just get out of his.

      Ah, so he wouldn't care if we publish somewhat anti-Islamic cartoons in our newspapers, or publish books dealing with Islamic related themes. Perhaps you are correct now, that these are not major issues for Bin Laden since he can concentrate on the US presence in Saudi Arabia, but I think you are naive if you believe that if the US were to withdraw from Saudi Arabia the result would be that Bin Laden would "retire" and disband Al Qaeda. I find it much more likely that he would desire to maintain his position of power, and merely find another issue to use to rally his followers.

      > Bin Laden had a more specific goal, that of getting our presence out of his country and the holy lands

      So, your argument is that the risk of international terrorism against the US makes it worthwhile to the US to withdraw from Saudi Arabia (and perhaps also to stop supporting Israel)? Frankly, I guess that Israel supplies a lot of useful intelligence to the US, but of course, I cannot be sure.

    5. Re:Beyond Fear by StillNeedMoreCoffee · · Score: 1

      Well it is interesting argument that you do not give the stated goals of Bin Laden any credence and feel you know his motivations. That sounds very much like the justifications we see for the war in Iraq (sorry occupation). First it was immenent threat from WMD's. Well there were none, they knew it but it had traction with the public. When it was found to be false, then it was well Al Qaeda is there. Well they weren't there. Hussan hated Al Qaeda and would not let him in his country. When that was pointed out, then it was to bring freedom and security to the Iraqies, when is was shown we could not do that, it was to fight terroism (by then a local group that allied themselves with Al Qaeda (which is not an organization per say, just a connective group between other existing seperate groups).

      So maybe your right, maybe Bin Laden has an agenda like Bush and what was stated was just an excuse to further his agenda. But the facts are that Muslum countries for centuries have live in peaceful co-existance with the rest of the world with a leave me alone and I will leave you alone. So there is evidence that that can work. I would much rather make the assumption that someone is sincere about a feeling of violation of soverenty than some dark vision of world conquest, unless their from Texas of course.

    6. Re:Beyond Fear by Mathinker · · Score: 1

      You start to sound like a bot programmed to always reply with Iraq and Bush. What's with you? I've been trying my utmost to move this thread away from them, and you obsessively keep coming back. Please try to refer to Bush and Iraq only to the extent they are connected with Bin Laden's behavior, and how much you think (irrespective of who is the president and/or how idiotic he is) the US should change its foreign policy to appease the risk of international terrorism, which you did not disagree as being actually quite small compared to a lot of other everyday risks.

      > So maybe your right, maybe Bin Laden has an agenda like Bush

      No, that's not at all what I said, and the only way what I said could be twisted into something even close to that would be if one believed that Bush believed that attacking Iraq in 2003 was the only way he would manage to be reelected, something which seems very unlikely since after 9/11 his approval rating hit the roof.

      > I would much rather make the assumption that someone is sincere about a feeling
      > of violation of soverenty than some dark vision of world conquest

      "dark vision of world conquest" is something you have pulled out of your own dark subconscious. My comment only pointed out that Bin Laden would need to continually pull out more "issues" with the US or the West in order to remain in a position of influence and power, it said nothing about his wanting to conquer the world, just that he very likely might want to remain personally important.

  46. exactly by shyberfoptik · · Score: 1

    And each of those is a reason, although certainly ridiculous, for some voter to believe they need that information.

  47. Yes, but only if it's being kept a secret by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    So pre-production work (still being kept a secret) and similar scenarios would be harsher.

    But I don't think the RIAA lables would make any money off their product while keeping it secret. THEY Want people to have it. They just want people to pay for it first.

    I'm fairly sure that Obama isn't demanding that anyone reading his passport pay him first.

  48. I have nothing to hide by krray · · Score: 1

    I have nothing to hide ... but that IS completely beside the point.

    I'll give a shit about this when I can pick up the phone and not think it is already bugged or being listened to.
    I'll give a shit when I can see the records of the numbers that were bugged in this country WITHOUT A WARRANT.
    I'll give a shit the day I can use my computer and not worry about the links I click on.

    Trust me ... one day I will give a shit. One day. Today, I do not. I think it is funny and their information should be freakin' published. I personally want to know where each and everyone of them has been, when, and why.

    1. Re:I have nothing to hide by OMNIpotusCOM · · Score: 2, Funny

      Here's your shiny hat back. You asked me to hold it while you typed. It's really nice... is it tin foil?

  49. Re:Much Ado About Nothing - Bull$hit! by gabrieltss · · Score: 1

    You obviously have NEVER gotton a pasport AC!
    It holds quite abit about your lifes history, Not just Name, Address, Phone number, country of origin. But SSN, your mother and fathers information, copies of your BIRT HCERTIFICATE, copies of 2 forms of photo ID. So anyone wanting to oh say engage in identity theft, pasport files are a one stop shop!

    --
    The Truth is a Virus!!!
  50. Thank heavens only good guys will have RealID by tkrotchko · · Score: 1

    "I wonder what the Ars Technica/privacy zealots who oppose RealID protection will say when the next hijacked airliner is crashed into a building."

    Probably not a lot since if everybody has a "RealID" it solves nothing since the "bad guys" will have a RealID as well.

    Or did you think they were going to do screening just to make sure only the "good guys" have RealID?

    --
    You were mistaken. Which is odd, since memory shouldn't be a problem for you
  51. CNN: Chief of firm... Obama adviser by Picass0 · · Score: 1

    " Chief of firm involved in breach is Obama adviser"

    http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/03/22/passport.files/index.html

    * Story Highlights
    * Source: John Brennan advises Barack Obama on foreign policy, intelligence issues
    * The passport files of three presidential contenders were improperly accessed
    * A contractor for the Analysis Corp. has been disciplined
    * Two contractors who worked for Stanley Inc. have been fired

    From Kate Bolduan
    CNN

    WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The CEO of a company whose employee is accused of improperly looking at the passport files of presidential candidates is a consultant to the Barack Obama campaign, a source said Saturday.

    John O. Brennan, president and CEO of the Analysis Corp., advises the Illinois Democrat on foreign policy and intelligence issues, the source said.

    Brennan briefed the media on behalf of the campaign this month.

    The executive is a former senior CIA official and former interim director of the National Counterterrorism Center.

    He contributed $2,300 to the Obama campaign in January.

    When asked about the contribution, a State Department official told CNN's Zain Verjee, "We ethically awarded contracts. Political affiliation is not one of the factors that we check."

    On Friday, the department revealed that Obama's passport file was improperly accessed three times this year, and the security of passport files of the two other major presidential candidates -- Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republican John McCain -- had also been breached. VideoWatch the secretary of state apologize for the breach

    Three contract emplyees are accused in the wrongdoing, including the one who works for Analysis Corp. and who was disciplined. That contract employee accessed McCain's file in addition to Obama's. None of the contract employees was identified. Learn more about the companies involved

    The other two contract employees worked for Stanley Inc. They were fired.

    The Washington Times, which broke the story Thursday night that Obama's records had been improperly accessed, reported Saturday that the State Department inquiry is focusing on the Analysis Corp. employee. Also, the investigation by the department's inspector general will include polygraph tests for supervisors in the passport section to find out whether there was any political motive.

    The department spokesman said Saturday that he would not comment on whether the department was administering polygraphs to employees in connection with the investigation.

    "While this is a rare occurrence, we regret the unauthorized access of any individual's private information," the company said Friday in a statement.

    Stanley has had contracts with the department since 1992 and was recently awarded a $570 million contract to continue providing support for passport processing. Its CEO, Philip Nolan, contributed $1,000 to the Clinton campaign. VideoWatch how contractor execs are linked to campaigns

    The department official said the three contract employees worked in three offices in the Washington area. One office does consular work and visas on evenings, holidays, weekends and overnights; another office issues passports; the third office scans and files materials.

    The source said there has been no problem in the past with the Analysis Corp. employee, who has "extensive" experience. The worker has been with the company for years and has always worked under a State Department contract.

    Explaining that the department had "complimented" this person for work in the past, the source said the individual is considered a "terrific" employee, except for this one instance, characterized as an "aberration."

    The department asked the Analysis Corp. not to take any administrative action against the employee whi

  52. Full transparency isn't ideal either by Anonymous+Brave+Guy · · Score: 1

    Full transparency is a more effective solution than full opacity because it's both easier to achieve, and eliminates abuses by making them uses.

    In general, full transparency is not a solution to privacy problems, though, because not everyone has equal power given the information. If a public official knows my name and address, he can look me up on all kinds of databases and, more to the point, make entries on all kinds of databases that may ultimately cause harm to me. If I know his name and address, what am I going to do, go stand outside his house with a sign saying "Abuser of power!"?

    I read a much better articulated version of this argument a little while ago, possibly written by someone like Ross Anderson, but I'm afraid I can't find it now. If anyone has it, please do post the link.

    --
    If you disagree, post your argument. (-1, Overrated) isn't your personal censorship tool for views you don't like.
  53. We are a Republic and NOT a Democracy by SonicSpike · · Score: 1

    Yes the US is a Constitutional Republic in which our representatives are democratically elected. We are not a democracy :-)

    I wish more people understood that. Ignorance in this country is widespread and it's largely due to government schools.

    --
    Libertas in infinitum
  54. Wait, you DON'T want to know the candidates? by felisconcolori · · Score: 1


    First off, yes, snooping of this nature is wrong. However, the final summary sentence, "In short..., the entire incident shows exactly why citizens' privacy is critical in a country where citizens compete with one another for control of the government." ...

    Who's perspective? As a candidate, you're damned right I don't want you to know everything about me. That makes me less likely to be able to compete and win the leadership post I seek.

    But as a VOTER and CITIZEN... HELL YES I want to know what these people have been doing. These are the people whose inconsequential decision on what to have for dinner while meeting with foreign dignitaries could start a war. (Probably not; they pay the staff well to make sure that doesn't happen. But it's in the realm of possibility that the President serving pork chops to the Ayatollah could have some bad results.) So what about fair competition; these are people I expect to make good decisions for all of the people they are leading. If you choose to live your life in public service, your life is going to be public. Don't whine and moan that you lost your very public job because some enterprising report found out you had an office broken into and evidence destroyed. And don't complain that people are invading your privacy; if you choose to seek public office, expect it and know that it will happen.

    Look at it from the prospective consumer model. I'm looking to buy a car, I expect the dealer to be forthcoming about things that may impact the performance of that car. (For example, it was picked out of a flood, and the interior was replaced. In fact, aren't there laws about that kind of information?) Likewise, I'm investing my vote in a product; the leadership qualities and policies of a politician whom I'm about to hand the power to wage war, tax, and regulate. I, as a "consumer", want to know EVERY detail I can about the person so that I can make a better choice.

    Granted, most of the voting public isn't remotely that responsible with their vote. And this only applies to people I am ceding my autonomy to; I don't care to know who's having sex with Paris Hilton this week.

  55. The real news here ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... is that Ars Technica is apparently attempting to compare a high profile bureaucratic mishap to a hypothetical one on a much grander scale involving the current anti-terror surveillance program, which they so cleverly refer to as a "domestic surveillance" program. The logic seems to be that if the government can't even protect our passport data, how do we expect it to protect our data collected on a much grander scale. Assuming that the government is illegally monitoring American's private phone calls and emails. Of course, if we're to believe that this surveillance program exists in the dark sinister form they insist upon, then don't we have much bigger problems to be worrying about? I'm just saying the comparison appears to be a cheap ploy by Ars Technica to make a political point.

  56. Actually... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    > .. is how terrible Hilary's passport photograph is.

    Surprisingly, it looks just like her. :) ...

    Yeah, I'll wait for the implication of that to sink in... But you can't prove I meant it, because I didn't say it outright!

  57. Now they can feel like us! by TibbonZero · · Score: 1

    Now the candidates get to feel what it's really like to be an American in 2008- no privacy from the gov't!

    --
    Tibbon
    tibbon.com
  58. SO EASY to get a passport job by pp344 · · Score: 1

    NOT GOVERNMENT EMPLOYEES Its pretty sad, but this is how it works. - State Dept hires a contractor for millions - Contractor does some hiring itself of local people - Contractor also uses temp agencies to find people By the time it hits the temp agencies the job is something like $10 an hour, no benefits offered, must pass credit and criminal check. The pool of candidates looking for a temporary job with no benefits and $10 is pretty crappy. These people have access to very sensitive information like passport data daily. In a nutshell, you can get a job at a passport center within weeks of applying, sit in training for a day, look up whatever you need to look up, and quit. All this in a matter of weeks. Yes, its pretty sad.

  59. So? by huckamania · · Score: 1

    You still don't know the name of my favorite pet. If that ever gets out, I'm toast.