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Hacker Club Publishes German Official's Fingerprint

A number of readers let us know about the Chaos Computer Club's latest caper: they published the fingerprint of German Secretary of the Interior Wolfgang Schäuble (link is to a Google translation of the German original). The club has been active in opposition to Germany's increasing push to use biometrics in, for example, e-passports. Someone friendly to the club's aims captured Schäuble's fingerprint from a glass he drank from at a panel discussion. The club published 4,000 copies of their magazine Die Datenschleuder including a plastic foil reproducing the minister's fingerprint — ready to glue to someone else's finger to provide a false biometric reading. The CCC has a page on their site detailing how to make such a fake fingerprint. The article says a ministry spokesman alluded to possible legal action against the club.

81 of 253 comments (clear)

  1. Respect, respect maan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'd like to see this done to officials in all countries.

    Reminds me of Gone in 60 seconds (the Jolie version) where one of the car-thieves glues on Elvis' fingerprints.

    1. Re:Respect, respect maan! by dpx420 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah if someone tried this with a high ranking government official in China or somewhere, they would indeed mysteriously 'disappear' in 60 seconds.

    2. Re:Respect, respect maan! by Foobar+of+Borg · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yeah if someone tried this with a high ranking government official in America, China or somewhere, they would indeed mysteriously 'disappear' in 60 seconds.
      There, fixed that for you. I guess now it's Germany, Land of the Free, Home of the Brave (WTF?)
    3. Re:Respect, respect maan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'm a retarded asshole There, I fixed all your comments for you.
    4. Re:Respect, respect maan! by Idiomatick · · Score: 4, Insightful

      WTF does china have to do with this?

    5. Re:Respect, respect maan! by garglblaster · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, you summarized it up very well: Germany, Land of the Free, Home aof the Brave. Times are a-changing aren't they? Hint: No, Bush's country isn't any longer considered 'Home of the Free' in any part of the world any longer.. - Sad to say this but true.. my 2 cts

      --

      perl -e 'printf("%x!\n",49153)'

    6. Re:Respect, respect maan! by Idiomatick · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Since when was germany worse than china when it came to rights... Wait, godwin is that you???

    7. Re:Respect, respect maan! by nguy · · Score: 3, Informative

      Since when was germany worse than china when it came to rights...

      China is a pathetically low standard to compare to.

      Wait, godwin is that you???

      You're a moron.

    8. Re:Respect, respect maan! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, wtf? I *am* from Germany, and I can tell you that it's nowhere even *near* the "land of the free" or "home of the brave". It's turning into a damn police state, Sam (yet again... you'd think we'd learn after a few times), and the fact that there's occasionally some good news doesn't mean shit in the long run. Look at the big picture; if you want a free(r) nation, go to Switzerland or maybe Scandinavia. Those are pretty much the last places on the planet where you'll still have *some* freedom. (And in Switzerland, you're legally allowed to make and keep your own gunpowder, too. Woo!)

  2. gag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    They should do that to the head of the TSA and put him on the no fly list

  3. couldn't possibly have negative consequences by Shadowruni · · Score: 4, Interesting

    So.... let's see.
    Oh all the people to humiliate... a senior public official who sets policy for something you directly care about.
    This couldn't possibly turn out badly.

    --
    "Chinese Amazons, power armor, laser swords.... things just meant to be." - Shampoo, A Very Scary Bet
    1. Re:couldn't possibly have negative consequences by Yokaze · · Score: 5, Informative

      Hardly. The CCC is a highly prolific club and is very likely keen on some legal "retaliation", as it would generate even more public attention on that matter.
      Since the Home Secretary stated, that storing fingerprints is no privacy concern, he would be hard pressed to explain his stance.

      --
      "Between strong and weak, between rich and poor [...], it is freedom which oppresses and the law which sets free"
    2. Re:couldn't possibly have negative consequences by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Since a senior public official still remains a public official, it could probably be defended on the same grounds that allow for political satire. It is expressly allowed in most countries to make fun of political figures, especially if you're doing it from a political standpoint yourself.

      Then again, we also have a new buzzword for crime with ideological motives. It's called terrorism...

    3. Re:couldn't possibly have negative consequences by Belial6 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It likely is. In just the same way that sinking the Titanic before any passengers boarded would have been grounds for criminal action.

    4. Re:couldn't possibly have negative consequences by gerardolm · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Let's say you lose your ID card. Someone else could take it and fake that he/she is you. Are you guilty of anything?

    5. Re:couldn't possibly have negative consequences by dirtsurfer · · Score: 5, Funny

      >> Oh all the people to humiliate... a senior public official who sets policy for something you directly care about. This couldn't possibly turn out badly.

      I love the idea that the way to make politicians do what you want is to be nice to them.

      so apparently Monica Lewinsky was probably about a week away from getting us all free national healthcare, too. Curse you, mainstream media!

    6. Re:couldn't possibly have negative consequences by jonberling · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Very clever. I think I'm going to use this one too. Here are some other, real life examples of illegal actions:

      • the Boston Tea Party
      • freeing slaves before the Civil War
      • Gandhi's protests against colonization
      • Reading the Bible, or other religious text, in nations without Freedom of Religion
      There are plenty of illegal actions that are morally correct actions. I usually pull out this list to anyone who suggests that following the law is one and the same with moral actions. Anyone else care to add to this list?
  4. In future news... by Spartan+Niner · · Score: 5, Funny

    We hear that Wolfgang Schäuble is convicted of committing 17 crimes. Simultaneously

    1. Re:In future news... by metlin · · Score: 5, Insightful

      One can only hope.

      What better way than a senior official to be convicted of crimes as a result of identity theft because officials such as him decided that privacy didn't really matter anymore?

      Personally, I sincerely wish that this happens in all the countries which have fingerprinting in place. Enough already.

    2. Re:In future news... by Naughty+Bob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      We hear that Wolfgang Schäuble is convicted of committing 17 crimes. Simultaneously
      17 One-fingered crimes at that...
      --
      "Be light, stinging, insolent and melancholy"
    3. Re:In future news... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      17 One-fingered crimes at that... Well if he isn't your doctor...
    4. Re:In future news... by evil_aar0n · · Score: 5, Funny

      On the other hand - no pun intended - this might actually work out in his favor, since he _could_ go out and commit a crime, and they'd have to wonder whether the fingerprint evidence was valid or not.

      --
      Truth, Justice. Or the American Way.
    5. Re:In future news... by LurkerXXX · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll be by later to snag a few hairs out of your comb. Never mind why I want them...

      I make DNA all day in the lab. It's getting easier and cheaper to make every year.

      DNA isn't going to turn out to be any more of a panacea than fingerprints.

    6. Re:In future news... by Znork · · Score: 4, Insightful

      DNA now that is good, and it is something difficult to duplicate.

      No need to duplicate it, free samples are falling off you everywhere you go. So no, DNA isn't very good either.

      There is however a very good biometric one can use. A neural imprint of a specific token; it currently can't be read without the cooperation of the person, it leaves no imprint around except as the owner desires and controls.

      It's known as a 'password'. A technology that is, perhaps, new and radical, but far more secure than other biometrics. Which, unfortunately, isn't particularly secure, just less insecure than the crap the scam artists of the biometrics industry are trying to push on the gullible.

    7. Re:In future news... by AJWM · · Score: 2, Insightful

      DNA now that is good, and it is something difficult to duplicate.

      I dunno, DNA wants to duplicate, although that's not what you meant.

      In terms of different individuals having the same DNA, talk to identical twins. About all DNA tests can really do is disprove that someone with non-matching DNA is guilty. DNA "matches" don't compare 100% of the DNA (even if they did, that doesn't rule out twins), and close relatives may well "match" also (and the fewer comparison points, the less-close the relative that could still "match").

      --
      -- Alastair
    8. Re:In future news... by Wavebreak · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Long as he only used one finger.

      --
      Nobody expects the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal.
    9. Re:In future news... by Flagran · · Score: 2, Informative

      all DNA tests can really do is disprove that someone with non-matching DNA is guilty. DNA isn't even perfect at that, due to chimeras and mosaics.
      --
      Make love, not sigs
    10. Re:In future news... by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll one up you, and promote the use of the pass phrase. Seriously. Sites with 8 character maximums or only alphanumeric passwords annoy me to no end. There's no reason you shouldn't allow people to use 300 character pass phrases if they so wish.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    11. Re:In future news... by Cardcaptor_RLH85 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This truthfully makes sense to me. I don't think that there are any real technical limitations to having very long symbolic pass phrases anymore so why are we often limited to 8 or 16 characters? My Windows password is a long sentence with correct grammar, punctuation, and one or two non-dictionary based proper nouns. Much easier to remember than a random string or even, in some cases, a password.

  5. Good for them by Scareduck · · Score: 5, Insightful

    High officials often seem to think the consequences of privacy-invading legislation will only occur to other (read: little) people. It's good to remind people in those positions that they do not have absolute power, and that they need to think about second order consequences.

    --

    Dog is my co-pilot.

    1. Re:Good for them by swright · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Maybe this is what you meant, but I just think this is the perfect example to illustrate to all how biometrics are just NOT the be-all and end-all. If only for the one simple fact that he cannot change his fingerprint like he could a password that got compromised!

    2. Re:Good for them by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 4, Insightful

      All three easily solved via a security by-pass incentive in a form of a pistol to the head or a kidnapped lover/child/dog etc which will "get it" if you do not cooperate or some poison with time release and the antidote delivered upon your succesful authentication, etc and so on and on and on and on.

      "Ironclad security" does not exist.

    3. Re:Good for them by Morten+Hustveit · · Score: 4, Funny

      "Ironclad security" does not exist.

      Not even when you completely cover something with iron?

    4. Re:Good for them by aproposofwhat · · Score: 5, Interesting
      Two words.

      Duress codes.

      Enter one code to authenticate normally, another to flag up that you are being forced to authenticate.

      Not quite ironclad, but an extra level of safety.

      --
      One swallow does not a fellatrix make
    5. Re:Good for them by Matt+Perry · · Score: 5, Funny

      Enter one code to authenticate normally, another to flag up that you are being forced to authenticate.
      Then they'd have to keep TWO post-it notes under their keyboard.
      --
      Slashdot: Failed Car Analogies. Amateur Lawyering. Anecdote Battles.
    6. Re:Good for them by TheSpoom · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, because it would be unconscionable to design a system where the duress code did not let you in. I would assume the duress code successfully authenticates you but alerts security.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    7. Re:Good for them by Plutonite · · Score: 4, Funny

      Ironclad Security only exists when you have Chuck Norris on the shift. Do we really have to discuss this?

    8. Re:Good for them by v1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Those can work against you too. My mom's got a security system in her apartment building, which is also secured. She was in a hurry one day and entered the wrong code to the alarm when she opened her apartment door, and re-entered it and it silenced as it should. 30 minutes later (!!) there's a knock on the door and looking out thru the hole she sees a row of cops lining the hallway all the way to the end, and a guy dressed in a white coat at the door "wanting to talk". She insisted it must be a mistake since the alarm company always calls before sending the cops. not when you enter the hostage code. oops! So they insisted on coming in for a bit and while they chatted with the white-coat, several of the officers methodically swept their place making sure there wasn't a guy with a weapon holding one of the family members hostage in a closet or something. It had taken them over 20 minutes to get someone else to buzz them into the building or they'd have been there a lot sooner.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    9. Re:Good for them by CastrTroy · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just because you can cut the iron, doesn't stop it from being iron. Iron clad doesn't mean inpenetrable, it simple means really hard to penetrate. If you are going to go through the trouble of blowing the door off a bank vault with C4, you can have the money. If you're going to go through the trouble to shoot me for my password, you can have it.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    10. Re:Good for them by v1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      well yes it is nice that you don't have to panic if you forget to lock a door or something there. But I suspect my reality is wasted on your attempt at sarcasm.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
  6. Biometrics: lamest of all security protocols by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At least until extreme body modification is commonplace, biometrics suck for identification. It's the only modern "security" mechanism that lacks revocation. Without revocation, a security model is eternally broken as soon as one chink is found.

    A person only has 20 digits, 2 palms, 2 soles, 2 retinas, and one genome. All of the biometric properties of those can easily be duplicated with noninvasive methods (simply enrolling in a biometric system requires the same access as duplication would). When one of those 27 properties is compromised, how do you revoke its use? I guess start with the fingers and palms and as people get older they have to start using their feet for identification, and at the very last make them get pricked for each identification. When all the biometric identifiers are used up, the now useless (at least in a Secure(TM) society) people can be recycled in the soylent green program or something.

    1. Re:Biometrics: lamest of all security protocols by Fission86 · · Score: 5, Funny

      When one of those 27 properties is compromised, how do you revoke its use? Cut it off?
      --
      Coming to you live from another dimension.
  7. No better thant he status quo? by EaglemanBSA · · Score: 4, Interesting

    This seems a bit over the top if you ask me, but hopefully it will expose biometrics for what it is: an unchangeable, and in many cases public, password. It's not very easy to hide your fingerprints (or even your DNA, for that matter) from people who really want to find them, and to rely on them for definite identification has the same problems as a social security number. Plus, anyone with a police record would be somewhat compromised from the get go here in the U.S.

    I'd hate to see people get proficient at faking fingerprints, because that leads to all sorts of interesting results in the realm of law. If fingerprint fraud becomes widespread, for example, will fingerprints at a crime scene still be valid evidence in court?

    --
    Quiz: True or False -- On a scale of 1 to 10, what is your middle name?
    1. Re:No better thant he status quo? by metlin · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'd hate to see people get proficient at faking fingerprints, because that leads to all sorts of interesting results in the realm of law. If fingerprint fraud becomes widespread, for example, will fingerprints at a crime scene still be valid evidence in court?
      What are you talking about?! It's fantastic.

      I mean, since fingerprints cannot be conclusive anymore, I foresee our politicians with moral fibers of steel pushing for more surveillance. I mean, if we cannot really tell whose fingerprints they are, we certainly need video proof! And since we do not know where a crime may happen, the policy makers (who typically have about as much morality as a pea) have decided that the way around this is to have cameras everywhere. Public restrooms and your house included.

      I mean, think of the children! /cynic
    2. Re:No better thant he status quo? by rnt · · Score: 4, Funny

      I mean, since fingerprints cannot be conclusive anymore, I foresee our politicians with moral fibers of steel pushing for more surveillance. They will also be pushing for a whole new set of copyright laws, giving governments exclusive copyrights on their citizens' fingerprints. Unauthorized copying or publishing of your own fingerprints will be severely punishable!
  8. Major flaw of biometrics by this+great+guy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This event highlights one of the major flaw of biometrics. This official had his fingerprint copied. There is nothing he can do. He can't change it. He can't prevent people from using it. No fingerprint reader will ever be able to determine with 100% certainty whether a particular fingerprint is real or fake. Bottom line: when one of your biometric traits gets stolen, you get screwed. For life.

    I hope this convinces governments that using biometrics for anything is a bad idea (other than perhaps criminal investigations, although what if this german official's fingerprint was found on a murder scene ?).

    1. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by Basehart · · Score: 2, Funny

      That's why they should use another part of the body as an identifier, such as the penis for example?

      Senior public officials could slide their penis into the reader at checkpoints and a reading quickly and easily taken.

      Females could be fitted with a custom made prosthetic of some kind.

    2. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by BlackCreek · · Score: 4, Insightful
      AFAICT the point that the parent poster was making is that unlike other security measures (say ID card, social security number etc) you just can't get a new biometric reading for your fingers (without at least some serious medical intervention), you can't get a new iris scan for your eyes, you can't get a new DNA code etc.

      Biometric data may put some entry barriers higher, so what? The problem is that you just can't get a new iris scan, like you get a new passport once your gets stolen.

      The worst of the situation is that we have all these politicians deciding --without the least form public debate about the real privacy implications-- that biometric data is now to be collected, and used, and kept by the government.

    3. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by TheSpoom · · Score: 2, Funny

      That only happens if you fail authentication.

      --
      It's better to vote for what you want and not get it than to vote for what you don't want and get it.
      - E. Debs
    4. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by BlackCreek · · Score: 5, Insightful
      The whole point of the parent poster is apparently lost to you.

      The point being that my biometric data is mine. It is private. It is not the government's business to have my blood samples, or DNA, or finger print. I am not a criminal, and therefore I expect to be entitled to some privacy from the BigBrother.

      Once some retarded government bureaucrat decides to leave a laptop inside a taxi or something, my private data is lost, and I can never get a new fingerprint, or iris scan. I can get a new social security number, I can get a new passport, a new bank account number, but I **cannot** get a new DNA.

    5. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by twenex · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, you miss the point. Biometrics are not private and any biometric system which is built with that assumption is flawed.

      But I suppose you wear a tinfoil mask to guard against those face recognition systems tied to cameras because your face data is yours and only yours.

      You are confusing the ethics, legality and technology behind biometrics in a bad way.

    6. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by BlackCreek · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Sorry, you miss the point. Biometrics are not private and any biometric system which is built with that assumption is flawed.
      But I suppose you wear a tinfoil mask to guard against those face recognition systems tied to cameras because your face data is yours and only yours. You are confusing the ethics, legality and technology behind biometrics in a bad way.

      I am confusing so much? Really? Please tell where is the police state where you live. Since your biometrics are not private (as you say it yourself), I assume your government has the right to request your DNA sample (or iris scan) in order to allow you to enjoy public services. Or not?
      Get a grip dude:

      My blood type is (still) legally private.

      My iris scan is (still) legally private.

      My DNA is (still) legally private.

      I am still allowed to walk down the street anonymously, with a cap, and dark glasses own, and a police officer still needs probable cause to ask me to remove those. A police officer also needs cause to request a fully, well made iris scan.

      But if I need to: travel abroad, or while living in another EU country, get any paperwork done. (Both rights I have, mind you). I need a passport.
      To have a passport I need to surrender my fingerprints. My fingerprints are no longer private, the government has the right to request them. I fully understand that, and I do oppose it.
      Not only that, the government also made my fingerprints much, much less private. Now people don't need special permits or access to a (well kept?) database to have a copy of a very good scan of my fingerprints. Because now for every service I need to present a passport, I'll need to handle over these (high quality) files (kept in the passport) for copy if so desired.
      Before, if a hotel clerk wanted my fingerprints it would be manual job, it would be time costing, expensive, and the quality would be poor. Now he buys a reader, asks to take a look at my passport, and voila! High quality copies made in a second, to extra costs, no extraordinary effort. My government after all, took good care and spend good money for it to be easy.

      So now, not only my central government has access to these (high quality) scans, but also a bunch of other people as well. Which is, lets face it, a much worse problem.

      I reckon you hint at the point that people confuse anonymity with privacy. But trust me, I am pretty aware of the difference.

    7. Re:Major flaw of biometrics by Deadstick · · Score: 3, Funny
      although what if this german official's fingerprint was found on a murder scene ?

      He tells the cops to RTFA.

      rj

  9. Legal action? by HalAtWork · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The article says a ministry spokesman alluded to possible legal action against the club.
     
    To what ends? You can't deter it as it's already happened, and you can't suppress it, as even the method for tricking the security system is widely known. If the security system is broken, you can't legalize it into working again. The security system was built in order to keep things safe, and now we have to keep other things safe from the security system itself.

  10. DMCA by RichardEasterling · · Score: 2, Interesting

    With the advent of Biometric Embedded Copyright Token (BECT), If this hack had been done in America, wouldn't this fall under the DMCA?

    It would by interesting to try to tell the cops that they can not have your finger prints because it violates the DMCA.

    1. Re:DMCA by Just+because+I'm+an · · Score: 2

      I'm not sure that the 'Digital' in DMCA refers to fingers...

  11. A perfect demonstration to the perfect person by smolloy · · Score: 4, Insightful
    This is a perfect way to demonstrate to the perfect person why such invasions of privacy are bad, and of the unintended negative consequences of their plans. Sometimes people in power forget that the "solutions" they develop to certain problems may be worse than the problems themselves. All they see is that a certain issue will be fixed -- not that the fix raises even worse issues.

    Bravo!

  12. Re:Brave defenders of freedom by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    At least they get off their asses unlike American's who cry about the Constitution but do fuck all about it.

    Bush was right, it is JUST a piece of PAPER. Why? Because American's do NOTHING about it and do not believe in it.

    This is plain to see by their inactions.

  13. even worse by ILuvRamen · · Score: 4, Informative

    You don't have to go to any special measures really to do this. I mean plastic and all those synthetic rubber moulds and stuff that the average person couldn't do is a bit excessive. Remember on mythbusters when they tried to beat that "unbeatable" fingerprint lock on a door and managed to do it by printing off the fingerprint with a laser printer and licking it? Yeah, biometrics is a joke. And really good biometrics like DNA aren't practical or fast and the retina scan, well you do that every day for a year and see if you don't go partically blind. I can't care hoe safe they think it is. Facial recognition is pretty useless and easy to beat too. Until they find something that's 100% unique and fast and accurate, they should forget about biometics.

    --
    Google's Super Secret Search Algorithm: SELECT @search_results FROM internet WHERE @search_results = 'good'
    1. Re:even worse by sohare · · Score: 2, Insightful
      What is the context of demanding that "they find something that's 100% unique and fast and accurate"? Nothing will ever fit that bill. You can steal/counterfeit plastic cards, guess passwords, pick locks, etc. It's simply unreasonable to demand the things you do, and moreover it's a logical fallacy (akin to what anti-evolutionists or conspiracy theorists do when they anomaly hunt).

      I note three things that appear to be grossly overlooked in all the crowing from our community of armchair experts. 1) There there is such a thing as a hierarchy of security needs. Some things just don't need extreme security. For a lot of security needs, mere deterrence is sufficient (look at bike locking strategies for example). 2) Technologies can be used in tandem to create more robust security. 3) Further development of technologies may lead to individual robustness for particular security measures. The first locks, for instance, were extremely crude.

  14. Has anyone tried this on a fingerprint reader? by rduke15 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I wonder if anyone has actually tried making such a fingerprint copy, and then using it on a fingerprint reader like the ones on laptops etc.

    Do you really get a good enough copy? How hard is it? (After all, any security can be broken somehow. So an essential aspect is the "cost" of breaking the security)

    1. Re:Has anyone tried this on a fingerprint reader? by mactard · · Score: 2, Informative

      There was actually a Mythbusters episode that showcased how you could take a fingerprint found on a can and use it on a DoD approved biometric fingerprint scanner. It's really a useless method of security.

    2. Re:Has anyone tried this on a fingerprint reader? by rah1420 · · Score: 4, Informative

      I wonder if anyone has actually tried making such a fingerprint copy, and then using it on a fingerprint reader like the ones on laptops etc.

      As a matter of fact, Yes.

      --
      Mit der Dummheit kämpfen Götter selbst vergebens.
    3. Re:Has anyone tried this on a fingerprint reader? by 88NoSoup4U88 · · Score: 4, Informative

      It doesn't seem hard at all at a 'normal' reader (see Mythbusters episode.

      The high-end, ridicilously expensive fingerprint readers are a lot harder to crack though; But I wouldn't say uncrackable.

    4. Re:Has anyone tried this on a fingerprint reader? by MikeFM · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the only working model is the concept of security in layers. The more layers an attacker has to dig through to compromise a systems security the more secure that system is. Biometrics alone are pretty weak. Passwords alone are pretty weak. Use them together and they're a little less weak. The biggest obstacle is the user. Will they put up with multiple security checks? Can they remember a good password? Will they notice where they're leaving behind fingerprints or if someone is trying to record their voice?

      In the end you have to be realistic with your expectations for any security system. We lock our front door when we leave our house but we all know that someone that wants to get in can still get in if they want to try hard enough. When you lay in bed at night you have no way to be sure that a stranger hasn't secretly entered your home and is waiting to cut your throat in the dark. Yet we make a bigger deal over how secure access to your bank account and other sensitive information is. At some point you just have to say enough and go on with your life.

      --
      At what price learning? At what cost wisdom? The price is a man's peace of mind, and the cost is his life.
    5. Re:Has anyone tried this on a fingerprint reader? by Chris+Pimlott · · Score: 3, Informative

      wonder if anyone has actually tried making such a fingerprint copy, and then using it on a fingerprint reader like the ones on laptops etc.

      Do you really get a good enough copy? How hard is it? (After all, any security can be broken somehow. So an essential aspect is the "cost" of breaking the security) Already been done. here's a video demonstration, again courtesy of our friends at CCC. Just takes a digital camera, a bit of wood glue, a bottlecap, a transparency and a bit of skin-friendly glue to apply the fake to your finger.
  15. Re:"The" finger print? by ilikepi314 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm sure there were other prints, but only one was needed to prove the point -- that his fingerprints and therefore biometric security just got PWNED.

  16. Ah, the Yakuza solution. by Chas · · Score: 3, Funny

    Yep. The problem is, what do you do if they compromise multiple sections of your biometric profile?

    Bob: DAN! What the fuck happened to you? You have no arms and not legs.
    Dan: And no testicles either. They took those too.
    Bob: No tes..what happened?
    Dan: Somebody got a copy of my biometric profile. So we had to make changes...
    Bob: But you have no arms and no legs!
    Dan: They even changed my name...
    Bob: They did? What's your name now?
    Dan: Matt

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  17. isn't biometric authentication a good thing? by sentientbrendan · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Everyone knows that biometric data can be stolen, just like every other means of identifying yourself. I thought the point of biometric data was that it added one *more* piece of data that would have to be stolen before someone could successfully impersonate you.

    So in addition to needing to know a pin or password, someone also needs to have stolen my fingerprint in order to take money out of my bank account. Isn't this what is called two factor authentication? Isn't that a good thing that makes it that much more difficult to steal an identity?

    According to this article Germany's new passports:
    http://www.itsmig.de/best_practices/ePass_en.php

    they contain both fingerprint data, and a picture of the person. Thus, to steal your identity, a person would have to steal your passport, look like you, and also steal your fingerprint. This actually seems like a pretty good system that would prevent someone from using a stolen passport to steal the rightful owners identity. Without the fingerprint data, an identity theft doesn't need to do as much work.

    That said, I'm not from germany, so maybe there additional nuances about this thing that I'm missing.

    1. Re:isn't biometric authentication a good thing? by Todd+Knarr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Except that with most types of biometric data (eg. fingerprints), they suffer two faults: you leave copies of them everywhere, and once compromised they can't be changed. The first makes it easy for someone to compromise the authentication, as this club demonstrated. I'll bet the minister left his fingerprints on a lot more than just a single plastic cup at a panel, and lifting a fingerprint from a hard surface is relatively easy to do. And the second means that compromises are 100% absolutely fatal for the rest of your life. With a password or a PIN, if it's compromised you can just use alternative authentication and then change it. With a physical key or combination you can just change the lock or the combination on the lock and the old key or combination becomes useless. But how do you change your fingerprint? And if you can't, how does anyone from that point on know that any use of your fingerprint is really you and not an imposter? So the fingerprint check doesn't add significant difficulty in obtaining the additional authentication item, and it makes a compromise much more annoying to recover from.

      You have to evaluate any security mechanism not just in terms of it's strength (resistance to compromise), but in terms of it's resilience (the consequences of a compromise and the difficulty of correcting the compromise). Biometrics tend to vary on the first, but all of them are highly brittle: any compromise tends to be total and irreparable.

    2. Re:isn't biometric authentication a good thing? by David+Jao · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Everyone knows that biometric data can be stolen, just like every other means of identifying yourself.

      Part of the problem is that you (and many other people) seem to think authentication is the same as identification. It's not. Biometrics are awesome as part of two-factor authentication, but they're horrible as a means of identifying yourself.

      Identification is the problem of determining, on your own, the identity of a given person.

      Authentication is the problem of determining whether or not a given identity corresponds to a given person.

      The difference is that, in authentication, you are given both a single person and a single identity, and your job is to answer true or false as to whether they match. Authentication is a yes/no question: your answer is either yes or no. In identification, you are given only a person, and your job is to produce a matching identity. Identification is not usually a yes/no question, although in some cases it can be disguised as one -- for example: to answer "Is this person a terrorist?" you typically have to determine a person's true identity (which a terrorist is not likely to offer to you) and then check that identity against known terrorist databases.

      National governments are fully aware of this distinction, and they exploit public confusion to further their agenda. Biometrics are being advertised as authentication tools (does this passport accurately identify this person?), for which they work pretty well, but in reality governments are using biometrics for identification (is this person a terrorist?), an approach which has fail written all over it.

      Even for authorization, biometrics are not a panacea, but they are at least a useful tool capable of contributing some benefits when employed properly. For identification, biometrics are an unmitigated disaster, for many reasons, chief among them the base rate fallacy, which says that the accuracy of an identity test drops precipitiously when the test is presented with large databases of identities.

  18. Yes, fingerprint readers are easily screwed. by Flu · · Score: 4, Informative

    Yes, this was done a couple of years ago in Sweden as a Master Thesis, which was described in Swedish Engineering paper Ny Teknik http://www.nyteknik.se/efter_jobbet/kaianders/article32986.ece (sorry, swedish only). The student Marie Sandström tested a simple yello, which was created using the same method as mentioned in the article above, on three commercial fingerprint-readers on the CeBit fair in 2004.

  19. Perfect alibi by oever · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Mister Schauble can enjoy an easy career as burglar when he's out of office. With 4000 copies of your fingerprint circulating, it cannot be used as evidence any more.

    The only thing dumb thing he could get caught with is when he leaves wheelchair tracks at the scene of the crime.

    --
    DNA is the ultimate spaghetti code.
  20. There actually *are* things to like about Germany by Qbertino · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The CCC is one of the things I like about Germany. It highlights a major element of german-style citizen-culture. It's clearly opposed to uncontrolled gouverment and any notion of a police-state. It has a taste of anarchy to it and on its fringes it has inofficial members with ties to the black-hat community. Yet it is a well organised official registered German association that speaks up on behalf of the people and democracy. With a 27-year tradition of keeping the public political debate alive on IT related rights-issues by perpetually coming up with creative ways of gaining attention. This recent 'Schäuble-Fingerprint' stunt being one of them. I don't know if they've exposed their selves with legal liability by doing this (after all it was officially published in their magazine 'Datenschleuder') but it sure is as funny, hilarious and exposing as ever. Creative non-sense at its best. Go, CCC!

    --
    We suffer more in our imagination than in reality. - Seneca
  21. Re:T-shirt by AJWM · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My kids were watching the Scooby-Doo 2 movie the other day. There's a scene where Daphne activates a fingerprint activated lock by dusting the scanner with blush powder (highlighting the latent fingerprint from its last use) then using a pore-strip over her own finger to provide the right body temperature/capacitance/whatever without her fingerprint confusing the sensor.

    I was amused to see that the technology's weaknesses had made it to the Scooby-Doo level already. I don't know if that exact combination would work, but I've heard of similar successful attacks.

    --
    -- Alastair
  22. Re:Movies come to mind... by erroneus · · Score: 3, Insightful

    To that, all I'll have to add is that the truth is stranger than fiction.

    It's often rather difficult for people to make an objective assessment of the present especially since causes and facts are often incomplete "now" and often require now to be later before you can look back on now and get a more clear picture, but consider the shocks and fears generated when "1984" was published. Now look at how much farther we have gone beyond 1984's "science fiction" and how we don't even notice it, let alone are alarmed by it.

    Things aren't "getting bad." They ARE bad. Things are getting worse. For all the people out there who think we need to give up privacy and crap like that, you need only look back to your teenage years for why a sense of personal space and privacy is important for people in general. I don't know that there are any studies on the subject, but I'd be willing to place a very large bet on the notion that in societies with less privacy, the suicide rates are likely to be higher. A person's sense of safety is closely tied to their sense of privacy... you only need to sit on a toilet without walls surrounding it once to understand that notion.

  23. Some CCC members reckoned to disappear anytime by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I have talked to Andi from the CCC just about over a week ago and he told me that he had something big and dangerous running. Well, now I know what that was. He also told me that he was followed by black BMWs many times recently and he told me that he reckoned to mysteriously 'disappear' any time.



    The answer why I am posting as an AC is left as an exercise to the reader.

  24. Yep! Really, really well done! by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Fingerprints as biometric are almost useless. The only way to make sure they work is to have a trained finger inspector look at every finger before it's used.

    --
    No sig today...
  25. DNA has the same problem as fingerprints... by Joce640k · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You leave your DNA everywhere you go and there's machines which can duplicate it and produce big samples - big enough to create fake DNA mouthwashes or whatever is needed to fool the scanner.

    The only way to be sure you're looking at the right DNA is to stick a needle into a person and take a sample from deep inside them... ...and that's not going to be very popular.

    Most biometric systems are junkware being pushed by people who are after the lucrative government contracts. The bottom line is they don't really work too well.

    The only one which might work is retinal scanning but for whatever reason I don't see that on anybody's ID card agenda. Why not? I don't know...

    --
    No sig today...
  26. Duress codes by mikeb · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Duress codes were widely implemented by the British Special Operations Executive in the Second World War.

    Agents dropped behind Axis lines were taught how to use 'security codes' if they were compromised (i.e. captured by the Nazis).

    The imbeciles in London who received their messages, especially from the totally infiltrated Dutch circuits, were so stupid as to message them back saying 'why are you omitting your security codes?'

    It got so bad that on April 1st 1944 the London operators received a plaintext message from the head of the Nazi operation thanking them for their cooperation (I think his name was Geiske).

    Hundreds died. It soured British/Dutch relations for a generation. It was monstrous, inexcusable loss of life.

    Don't EVER underestimate the power of stupidity.

  27. Re:Yep! Really, really well done! by InvalidError · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Fingerprints as biometric are almost useless. The only way to make sure they work is to have a trained finger inspector look at every finger before it's used. In a MythBusters episode on security device, they showed - much to their own surprise - that some of those fancy biometric fingerprint readers can be tricked by a plain paper copy.

    Yup, fingerprints are extremely weak security checks since a normal person leaves hundreds of prints behind them every day.