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Oil Deposit Could Increase US Reserves 10x

HighWizard notes the upcoming release, on Thursday, of a report by the US Geological Survey on the Bakken Formation. This is an oil field covering 200,000 square miles and underlying parts of North and South Dakota, Montana, and Saskatchewan. A geologist who began surveying the field, before dying in 2000, believed it may hold as much as 1 billion barrels of recoverable oil. Later estimates have ranged to the hundreds of billions of barrels. Such a reserve would go a long way toward securing US energy independence.

133 of 869 comments (clear)

  1. 6000SUX by Zymergy · · Score: 3, Funny

    Awesome! ...And in the nick of time too, the dealer just called and my brand new 6000SUX just came in!
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=FLMVNyYb1SE

    1. Re:6000SUX by LaskoVortex · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's actually stolen from a really old jokee

      On the other hand, here is a shameless insertion of a new joke into the top of the /. heap:

      In other news the newly formed state of Montkota is preparing to annex Saskatchewan and secede from the union. George bush has declared all Montkotans "terrorists" and is preparing to invade.

      --
      Just callin' it like I see it.
    2. Re:6000SUX by gsarnold · · Score: 4, Funny

      I'll buy *that* for a dollar!

    3. Re:6000SUX by bryce4president · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Nice joke. But the real joke is the fact that people think our gasoline consumption has some huge effect on our oil usage. Actually our automobile fuel usage only accounts for 10% of our overall oil consumption. All those plastics that our cars are made of, and almost everything else we buy for cheap is made up come from petroleum :) So the next time you are asked paper or plastic? You might want to give paper another look. (after all, last year saw the first INCREASE in forest coverage from a previous year in quite a long time...so tress are on the rebound and reproduce much quicker than oil)

    4. Re:6000SUX by Slovenian6474 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Last time I was at Wal-Mart and the lady started to put my purchases in a plastic bag, I said I can carry them myself. It was only a few things and an extra bag around would be slightly annoying. She replied with "That's good. Save a tree." I stopped for a second about to explain that the bag was made from petroleum, not trees. I would, infact, be saving oil. I decided not to say anything at all because my purchase consisted of several quarts of oil due to the fact that my car leaks oil like a sieve.

    5. Re:6000SUX by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, bring your own bags please

    6. Re:6000SUX by rubberglove · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Or just bring your own bag(s).

      I've done this for just about every grocery trip for the past two or three years (except for maybe once a month or two when I actually want a few bags for household garbage cans).

      You don't have to be an ecowarrior to think that the number of bags that we use (and throw away) is ridiculous. Here in Canada it's something like 10 billion a year (!).

      But the 'environmental' aspect of it is only part of it. Frankly, I stopped taking bags from the grocery store mostly just because I was sick of having so many of the damn things that I would never use. But once I started, I realized just how more convenient it is to have a larger sturdy bag (or bags, usually) that I can throw over my shoulder instead of a dozen or so flimsy plastic ones that are uncomfortable to carry.

      Even when I'm doing a larger shopping run with a car (about half the time over the winter) it's still a hell of a lot easier to carry two big blue ikea bags to the kitchen.

      Over these past 3 years I've noticed a huge shift in attitudes about the whole thing. It used to be that I'd have to practically shove the grocery bagboy out of the way and get into a discussion about why I didn't want their bags. Now it seems like at least a third of people bring their own bags, and most stores give a 5 cent discount for it (yay. 5 cents).

    7. Re:6000SUX by bonehead · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You might want to replace that gasket.

    8. Re:6000SUX by mhall119 · · Score: 5, Funny

      You might want to replace that gasket. Leave the Wal-mart employee alone.

      --
      http://www.mhall119.com
    9. Re:6000SUX by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There are also major new discoveries of oil in Vietnam and Southeast Asia. So why am I paying $3.40 for gas????

      And why don't these new discoveries make to the news networks, radio or newpapers???

      Because these aren't new discoveries. They are old, know deposits that were, for one reason or another, not economical to tap when the price of oil was low. Now that it is high, it makes economic sense to tap these reserves. If the price went down again, the reserves would no longer make enough profit to justify using them.
      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    10. Re:6000SUX by Slovenian6474 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wasn't as surprised by the "save a tree" comment by the lady behind the counter as I was with the conversation I had with a 6 year old (rather ghetto looking) while I stood in line. Went something like this:

      6yr old: True or False!...Boys wear panties or boxers?

      Me:.....Um false.

      6yr old: Wrong! My brother wears panties because he says boxers are too manly.

      I'm usually pretty quick but I couldn't think of anything to say to that. That was a very interesting day at Wal-mart.

    11. Re:6000SUX by The+Analog+Kid · · Score: 2, Interesting

      True, but your bring your own bags are by far the most difficult for cashiers / baggers to load up, thus increasing the amount of time everyone is there. About the only thing worse are the jackasses that would ask for paper IN plastic. Ugh. Having been a cashier at one point, the people who bring cloth bags are by far the best customers. Their cloth bags, hold more, and aren't so picky about weight. (because they may only have 1 or 2 bags, and don't want extra store bags)Most of the bags I've seen these days are rectangular, and pretty wide when they open up, and are most definitely easier than trying to pull apart a new stack of plastic bags.

      The people who ask for paper and plastic do so, because these days the store plastic bags are so thin and cheap. No one wants to be the one who's bag fall apart in the parking lot. Most stores also don't carry paper bags with handles, and the adhesive that holds the bottom of the bag is prone to failure when bagged normally.
    12. Re:6000SUX by JSBiff · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thank you. I was wondering exactly the same thing - who measures gasoline in miles-of-gasoline-at-x-miles-per-gallon? I've never seen anyone measure gas that way.

      To the GP, let me help simplify your expression:

      N Miles * Gallons/XMiles = N/X Gallons.

      So, that gives us 50000/25 = 2000 gallons.

        There, isn't that much simpler? Of course, 50000 just sounds so much worse than 2000. (Not that 2000 sounds good mind you, but I sometimes wonder with these tortured derived units that people come up with, instead of using basic units, whether they are simply trying to inflate the number while still being, technically, correct?)

  2. We have more oil? by symbolset · · Score: 5, Funny

    I wonder what this does for theories of for oil. Some people theorize that petroleum is left over from the formation of the earth, rather than created by the fossilization of carbon life forms.

    This reserve may be difficult to tap fully because of the nature of the rocks. I wonder if nuclear weapons would help. I guess it depends on how and where they were deployed.

    How many tons of CO2 would be created with the burning of 500 billion barrels of oil? BTW, 500 billion barrels of oil would be about 1/6th of the world's oil reserves.

    Is there really that much oxygen in the atmoshpere to burn all that? Let's see. The earth's atmosphere weighs 5 quadrillion metric tons... OK, no worries there.

    but, but, the global warmings! The sea level could rise 50 feet in the next century. [checks current elevation of homestead] OK, that's fine.

    But it would be hot! [checks average temps for homestead] ok, yeah, I can get behind that.

    What about the polar bears? [checks polar bear shares in 401K] We're looking good!

    But the crops! The crops won't grow! [Checks map of world showing land in permafrost] Looks like a net gain to me.

    Ok, yeah! We have more oil! Can we exploit it faster than we have more people?

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
    1. Re:We have more oil? by nmb3000 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I wonder if nuclear weapons would help.

      Perhaps you can explain--exactly under what circumstances do nuclear weapons not help?

      That said, those sound like fightin' words so I'd be careful. We might not have much up in Montana, but we do have nukes. Some 200 ICBMs with several MIRVs to be exact. You want our oil? Come and get it!

      --
      "What do you despise? By this are you truly known." --Princess Irulan, Manual of Muad'Dib
      /)
    2. Re:We have more oil? by Itchyeyes · · Score: 5, Informative
      I'm a petroleum engineer who works for an independent oil and gas company that has recently become active in the Bakken formation in North Dakota. So let me try and answer these questions one by one.

      I wonder what this does for theories of for oil. Some people theorize that petroleum is left over from the formation of the earth, rather than created by the fossilization of carbon life forms.

      This theory is complete and utter bunk. Nobody, and I really mean nobody, seriously invested in the search for petroleum reserves subscribes to it. The Bakken is a traditional petroleum reservoir where the hydrocarbons are created by biological matter subject to intense heat and pressure.

      The reason that the Bakken is just now considered a viable reservoir is not because more oil has been generated but because the technology and price of oil have advanced enough to where it's now a viable and economic source of oil. The current buzz about the Bakken is specifically relegated to horizontal wells, a technology that has just recently come into its own.

      This reserve may be difficult to tap fully because of the nature of the rocks. I wonder if nuclear weapons would help. I guess it depends on how and where they were deployed.

      I'm assuming this is a joke, but nuclear weapons have actually been tested in oil fields to increase production. Traditionally, a well is hydrolicaly fractured with pressure to increase the permiability of the rock and increase the ease in which the hydrocarbons can flow. However, explosives can produce a similar result. Nuclear explosives though are actually poor tools to fracture a well with since the intense heat "glasses" the rock and prevents flow.

      How many tons of CO2 would be created with the burning of 500 billion barrels of oil? BTW, 500 billion barrels of oil would be about 1/6th of the world's oil reserves.

      Fewer than would be produced generating the same amount of energy with coal, which currently provides about 70% of our energy in the US. Even if we all decide today that we're going to swear off fossil fuels, the process of converting our society to the alternatives will take decades, decades in which we will still rely on millions of barrels of oil every day.
    3. Re:We have more oil? by KDR_11k · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Even if we all decide today that we're going to swear off fossil fuels, the process of converting our society to the alternatives will take decades, decades in which we will still rely on millions of barrels of oil every day.

      Which is why that decision should've been made decades ago. The switch will never be painless, just like switching from MS Office or Windows to the competition will never be painless.

      --
      Justice is the sheep getting arrested while an impartial judge declares the vote void.
    4. Re:We have more oil? by dbIII · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I'd love to see geo/nuclear energy widespread

      Here's an interesting geothermal/nuclear tie in. Proposed expansion of the Olympic Dam uranium mine in the state of South Australia is going to require electicity equivalent to 75% of South Australia's current electricity production. There are currently experiments in geothermal electricity production being conducted a few hundred kilometres away from the mine which could possibly power it. People tend to forget that nuclear power comes from rock that you have to get out of the ground with effort and not some magic bean.

      To complete the circle the hot wet rock was found during exploration of a nearby oilfield. The rock is actually hot due to natural nuclear activity but that is another story.

    5. Re:We have more oil? by Itchyeyes · · Score: 5, Informative

      I'm continually stunned by the abundance of misinformation our there about how oil is produced and distributed.

      First of all, most of our oil does not come from Canada and Mexico. And a lot of it does come from the Middle East and our foreign policy does have a big impact on it.

      Secondly, yes Exxon made $40 billion in profits last year. They also spend somewhere around $400 billion to make those profits. Big numbers mean nothing unless you put them in perspective. A 10% profit margin is nothing special.

      Thirdly, there is no oil monopoly. Oil companies do not calude with each other, they compete. The oil industry is infinitely deeper than Exxon, Chevron, and BP. There are hundreds, if not thousands of independent oil and gas companies in the US alone. The people that have interests in the Bakken in North Dakota are not the majors. They are companies like EOG, Marathon, Kodiak, and Questar. These companies do not have refineries. They sell at the market price, they have no say in what their product goes for. They do not have enough reserves to make any impact on market prices even if they wanted to.

    6. Re:We have more oil? by iq+in+binary · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You, sir, are a complete fucking moron.

      The big oil companies haven't been making their profit by virtue of artificially controlling the supply, they've been doing it by selling more than they've ever sold before. The profits reaped last year and the year previous wasn't because of raising their profit margins (I.E. raising prices to increase their profit margin), they've been doing it by selling more petrol than in any years previous.

      Big Oil has has the same business infrastructure, organizational structure, and sales methods as they've had for 50 fucking years. They held a razor thin profit margin on gasoline for going on 25 years now. For every dollar on gas, you spend maybe 3 pennies giving them profit. So quit bitching about oil companies gouging the public, because they aren't. You want to know the real culprit for gas prices these days? Our own fucking government, they make about a dollar per gallon on taxes.

      Where does that money go? Who knows any more. Just quit bitching about a company actually doing good business, because for the most part the petrol companies are. They have to deal with literally thousands of different mixtures of gasoline being shipped among this country, the different ways to refine them, and finally the shipping, and they're only pulling 3% profit. Fuck you for thinking that's out of line. Learn your economics, and then learn how the real world works. The price of gas being as high as it is is MORE the gov's fault for spending so much money on pork that it has to rape us on gas to compensate. Bitch at your governments for taxing gas so much, then bitch at them for making good companies spend twice as much as they have to for making a good product, THEN bitch at the gas companies for not making things cheap enough when they're only pulling a 3% margin.

      This is a capitalist economy, damnit, it's what is responsible for this country's well-being. Think about the business first, then bitch.

      --
      Of all the Universal Constants, here's one I know: Nice guys finish last ;)
    7. Re:We have more oil? by spun · · Score: 5, Funny

      People tend to forget that nuclear power comes from rock that you have to get out of the ground with effort and not some magic bean. Are you sure? Look, everyone knows magic beans grow very big very fast. The only other thing I know that grows that big or that fast is Godzilla. Who got that way from radiation. Ergo, the beans must be radioactive.

      Obviously, we should grow more of these beans.
      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    8. Re:We have more oil? by khallow · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Which is why that decision should've been made decades ago.

      Why do you think planning things decades ahead works? Why do you think we'd make better decisions than the ones we did make? For example, fifty years ago, we had a good idea about the extent of Middle East oil (it was starting to be exploited), but no idea about how unstable the region was going to be. Nuclear power looked huge (they were planning at one point to have 40-50 nuclear plants lining just the California coast to exploit the Pacific Ocean as a heat sink). Solar and wind power (for electricity generation) weren't developed yet. They still had some places to put in hydroelectric plants in the developed world. Computers and space technology were very crude. We just found out about DNA. The greenhouse effect was just a vague theory. The economic surge of the Third World wasn't expected.

      I guess my point here is that any energy-based plans in the late 50's would be completely obselete by now. You seem to imply that we should have decided to shift away from oil a few decades ago. But what would have been the basis of such a decision? That there were only a few decades of oil production (which incidentally, we're in the process of blowing past)? That fossil fuel burning causes air pollution? Those have been addressed. What we think of as problems now, will be dealt with. It might mean that we move away in the near future from burning fossil fuels, or not. But in fifty years, what we see as problems now, will change. Old problems may vanish while new ones take their place.

    9. Re:We have more oil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      For example, fifty years ago, we had a good idea about the extent of Middle East oil (it was starting to be exploited), but no idea about how unstable the region was going to be.

      Let's see, you're saying that in 1958, people had no idea how unstable the Middle East was going to be. HA ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha!!! Yes, such a peaceful time it was, nobody had any idea how unstable the Middle East would be. Ha ha ha ha ha ha!! Will you be here all week? Should we try the veal?

    10. Re:We have more oil? by DimmO · · Score: 2, Funny

      just to be petty: OD is primarily a copper mine. it's just a bonus that it has a big mofo uranium deposit mixed in with it. and some gold and silver too. Good times. money for everyone.
      If they go ahead with the expansion, don't forget the increased water requirements either: if they put a reverse osmosis machine near Whyalla, what's the bet that the waste from it kills all the fishes in Spencer Gulf. bad tims. fish and chips for noone.

    11. Re:We have more oil? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      "First of all, most of our oil does not come from Canada and Mexico."

      Your link says;
      "The top sources of US crude oil imports for January were Canada (1.944 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1.479 million barrels per day), Mexico (1.198 million barrels per day), Nigeria (1.163 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (1.135 million barrels per day)."

      The top five in order were;
      1) CANADA
      2) SAUDI ARABIA
      3) MEXICO
      4) NIGERIA
      5) VENEZUELA

      Sure not all of it comes from there, but it's a decent slice.

    12. Re:We have more oil? by Simon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Why do you think planning things decades ahead works? Why do you think we'd make better decisions than the ones we did make?

      Ok, so you are saying that we didn't know decades ago that being dependent on oil might be a bad idea and that we should try to get off it?

      --
      Simon
    13. Re:We have more oil? by BlueParrot · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Well, technically we have already mined enough uranium that if we would just quit this retarded scheme where we use 1% of it and then throw it away we'd be set for centuries. Uranium mining continues because it is presently cheaper than reprocessing spent fuel, not out of necessity. Take my home country, Sweden, as an example. Over the lifetime of the present generation of nuclear reactors ( 60 years ) we will have built up some 12.000 metric tonnes of spent fuel rods. 96% of that spent fuel is still Uranium and actinides, which if recovered and fissioned would release enough energy to keep the reactors running for a millennium and a half. Of course, this is before we take into consideration that for each unit of enriched uranium fuel there will be several units of depleted uranium ( which can also be fissioned in fast reactors ) thus extending the resource further. Simply put, existing technology could supply our present energy demand for thousands of years without any mining. You would have to construct a waste repository, which over a few thousand years would accumulate the enormous amount of waste equal to about the amount of milk we consume in a single month.

      Now, obviously this is a quantity which is far larger than what we could possibly figure out a way to safely store given 40 - 50 centuries of scientific development, so instead our energy plan is based on the idea that if we subsidize wind power for sufficiently long, they can indefinitely continue to increase in efficiency at the same rate as they have done historically (never mind that pesky theorem of fluid dynamics which sets a theoretical limit at about twice of present achievements ). /rant

    14. Re:We have more oil? by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was born in the '50's and wholeheartedly agree with you. Back then a 200hp industrial electric motor was about the size of a mini, today they can fit in a suitcase. However I think some governments (in particular the US & Australia) have been deliberately sticking their fingers in their ears and singing tingle-ingle-loo since the late 90's. Some lobbyists (particulaly coal & oil) have sponsered mass media anti-science campagins that remind me of the tabacco 'scientists' of the 80's (look up a guy called Fred Singer, for a counter example look up Lord Oxburgh).

      The Fred Singer's have lost (again), they did manage to delay common sense for ~10yrs but that has also served to strengthen the science. I don't mind paying my kids generation to fix broken infrastucture, I know their super athletic kids living in the attic will point out the mistakes.

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    15. Re:We have more oil? by downix · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You know a "Feeder Reactor" actually is designed to do pretty much this, reprocess the fuel as it's being fissioned into more fissionable material.

      --
      Karma Whoring for Fun and Profit.
    16. Re:We have more oil? by DavidShor · · Score: 3, Insightful

      When was the last time gas taxes were raised? 1996? Oh... So that means that the tripling in gas prices since year 2000 was due to something other than government?

    17. Re:We have more oil? by Itchyeyes · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just read the numbers. Canada and Mexico account for 35% of our oil imports. Is that a lot, sure it is. But is it anywhere near most of our oil? No. What's more, the GP was making this point to support his idea that events in the Middle East do not affect our oil supply. But the #2 provider of US oil imports is Saudi Arabia at 17%.

    18. Re:We have more oil? by DavidShor · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Gasoline taxes are a horrible way to decrease carbon emissions. Most CO2 emissions come from coal plants and industrial processes, so leaving them untaxed will not have much of an effect. For actual solutions to global warming, do some reading on Carbon credits or Carbon taxes.

    19. Re:We have more oil? by aurispector · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I can actually *remember* the lines to fill up . All the arguments about energy policy here are bunk except for one; cost, pure and simple. With oil, you stick a big straw in the ground and suck it out, then boil it to break it down into gas and stuff. Then you put it in your car and burn it. Nothing else is that cheap or simple and has as much energy per gallon.

      The hidden advantage of the current prices is that other technologies become economically viable for development. Besides, there's plenty of OIL right now - current high gas prices are due to a relative lack of refining capacity. I'd bet that when gas hits $5 a gallon in the US, suddenly new refineries will spring up, but also more alternate energy sources will become competitive. THIS IS THE KEY. Once it's really worth it to try out new technologies (a prius does not yet save you money in terms of total cost of ownership), we hit critical mass for research and funding and the market takes care of the rest. Economies of scale will reduce the costs and after a while oil isn't all that profitable, especially when the easily pumped deposits dwindle and it's more expensive to suck it out of the ground.

      --
      I have mod points. The reign of terror begins now.
    20. Re:We have more oil? by ivan256 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      We actually have plenty of refining capacity. Production is up and consumption is down. In recent weeks, gasoline reserves have been as much as 10% higher than historical averages.

      The reason the price of oil and gasoline are so high right now is the flood of speculative investors into the oil market. That adds a lot of demand, but it's not consumer demand. Production continues, and that oil will have to end up on the market eventually... Whoever the next president is, they will get credit for "solving" the problem, even though the important bits have already played out.

    21. Re:We have more oil? by transmorph · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually Australia doesn't use nuclear power at all, unless you count Lucas Heights (Sydney) which is used as a scientific research facility (and produces certain isotopes for medical purposes).

      So the nuclear power is solely intended for export.

    22. Re:We have more oil? by inode_buddha · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Interesting. Let me date myself a bit here: I remember watching a guy walk on the moon, and I remember Viet Nam and Saigon. FWIW I switched over to FOSS/GNU/Linux a little over 10 years ago. Based in the USA here. After looking at the layout of the country and major cities, I felt that decent public transport would be vitally important. I've travelled or lived in all the major cities several times, driving from coast to coast. I would *love* to see a high-speed euro-style train connecting them, and busses in the cities themselves. Problem that I see is, every time somebody comes up with a plan like that, the politicians jump on it and totally kill it. They use it for a political football instead of thinking what is good for the people. That is why in my town we have busses... that nobody uses. They run on a schedule that doesn't fit any local employment or schools. Even though millions were spent on municipal bond issues, it is still necessary to raise rates well over a dollar to cover the cost of a trip that would only take 10 minutes by car, but costs hundreds of thousands in a bus that is empty. As for coal and oil consumption, well that's just horrifying. My house is supplied with hydro power but I understand how that is limited. So why the *hell* do local and state pols make it almost impossible to develop alternative energy? If some guy wants to run his ranch off a windmill and solar panels on the roof then I'm all for it, don't get in his way. er,

      --
      C|N>K
    23. Re:We have more oil? by RatPh!nk · · Score: 5, Informative

      We actually have plenty of refining capacity.
      I just want to point this out:

      The US total refining capacity was 17,443,492 barrels of oil/day, which yields on average, 340,148,094 gallons @19.5gallons gas/barrel of oil. The current consumption of gas in the US is 388.6 million gallons/day (as of 2006)


      If those numbers are correct, we are at a 48,451,906 gallon/day shortfall of US domestic production capacity. Since no one wants a refinery in their backyard, there hasn't been a new one built since the 1970's (The last refinery built in the US was in Garyville, Louisiana, and it started up in 1976.)


      So "we" as in the US, have a serious lack of refinery capacity.


      Sources:
      http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html
      http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/eng99/eng99288.htm
      http://www.gasandoil.com/goc/news/ntn12966.htm
      --
      Argh. The laws of science be a harsh mistress.
    24. Re:We have more oil? by ivan256 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      My claim was based on the fact that we have plenty of product. Which we do. Reserves are at historically high levels. The only reason we have this obsession with "eliminating the dependence on foreign oil" is because it sounds good to the American public when a politician says it. Rare is the politician that wants to eliminate or dependence on foreign refining.

    25. Re:We have more oil? by WebCowboy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      First of all, most of our oil does not [doe.gov] come from Canada and Mexico

      But over one third of it does already. A sizeable chunk of the Athabasca fields in Alberta are not yet developed, and the vast majority of Saskatchewan's potentially recoverable oil reserves remain untapped. Billions of dollars are being spent on upgrader and enhanced-recovery facilities in Alberta, and Saskatchewan has recently voted out a long-in-the-tooth socialist government and replaced it with a more business-friendly regime that has vowed to be more aggressive in developing its natural resources.

      It is possible (and in fact, in the long term, probable) that in the future over 50% of foreign oil imports into the US will be from Canada and Mexico. Middle eastern foreign policy is less and less about maintaining the power of US-friendly sheiks in return for cheap oil and more about keeping nukes out of the hands of twisted "Islamic" madmen with deluded thoughts of blowing up us "infidels" so they can spend eternity in Allah's kingdom with a harem of 1000 forever-youthful wives.

      Thirdly, there is no oil monopoly. Oil companies do not calude[sic] with each other, they compete.

      There is not a monopoly in E&P, however there is an oligopoly of large, vertically-integrated energy companies (you know, the ones that pull oil out of the ground, refine it themselves and ship it to their own chains of service stations). They've always colluded to some extent, but just like a mafia Don they manage to stay just on the right side of the legal line. Many of these companies share their origin as parts of the former Standard Oil trust. And guess what? They've almost completely re-merged, and the re-constituted corporations are huge in comparison to Standard Oil (Exxon+Mobil, Chevron+Texaco, BP+Amoco...so the huge, top-tier playing field is cut in half and the players themselves are twice as big).

      There might be thousands of companies looking for and collecting the crude, but only a handful refine it into fuel and fewer yet sell that fuel to us. Fat lot of good having lots of competition in the crude arena is when they all have just a few significant customers (refiners and marketers). The market can be controlled from both the supply and demand side you know.

    26. Re:We have more oil? by Itchyeyes · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There might be thousands of companies looking for and collecting the crude, but only a handful refine it into fuel and fewer yet sell that fuel to us. Fat lot of good having lots of competition in the crude arena is when they all have just a few significant customers (refiners and marketers). The market can be controlled from both the supply and demand side you know. This just isn't true. Like with the producers most people have absolutely no idea how competitive and varied oil refineries are. Here is a list of all US oil refineries and their production. From that list, these are the top 10 and their percentages of the US market.

      Valero 13.1%
      Conoco Phillips 11.7%
      ExxonMobil 11.2%
      BP 8.3%
      Chevron 5.6%
      Marathon 5.4%
      Citgo 4.5%
      Sunoco 4.5%
      Shell 4.5%
      Motiva 4.5%

      None of these companies could be considered to be in a market dominating position, and 3, including Valero which has the largest market share, were never even part of Standard Oil. Additionally, there are some 50 other companies that control the remaining 27% of oil refining capacity in the US. People like to think of the oil industry as one unanimous big bad wolf, but that just isn't the reality of the situation.
    27. Re:We have more oil? by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2, Informative
      ... there hasn't been a new one built since the 1970's...

      However, expansion of current plants has pretty much kept pace with demand. Note that the reason that there are few new plants is because there has been a lack of people unwilling to invest in the construction of new plants. There are two reasons for this. First, it's easier to expand then to build new. Second, neither the short-term nor the long-term ROI is there for these kind of major investments. Easily recoverable oil reserves are shrinking, leading to an increase in oil costs, leading to a decrease in the margins on petroleum products. There goes your incentives to build refineries. Note that there is also a decrease in the amount of new oil extraction infrastructure being built, too (rigs, etc.), due to the same reasons.

      So, yes, refineries have a small shortfall at the moment - it's not because of the big, bad people not wanting smelly refineries in their back yards - it's because the ROI isn't there.

      --
      That is all.
  3. Fungible by corsec67 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Too bad oil is fungible, so OPEC can still hurt us monetarily.

    So, how far back does this push "peak oil"?

    --
    If I have nothing to hide, don't search me
    1. Re:Fungible by timmarhy · · Score: 2, Informative

      peak is a load of fucking nonsense anyway. no one but environmental crack pots give it much cred.

      --
      If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
    2. Re:Fungible by Rei · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The simple mathematics are that if something is being used faster then it is created, it will reach zero.

      And therein lies the fundamental error. First off, you're not using "oil"; you're using gasoline or diesel or any number of refined products. You pull up light sweet crude, and it's pretty close to what you want out; you don't have to refine it much. You pull up sour crude, heavy crude, ultra-heavy crude, or even bitumen, and you've got a big refining task ahead of you. You cook oil out of keragenous rock like shale, and you're doing even more organic chemistry. Ultimately, you can make oil simply from CO or CO2, plus water for the H2, plus energy, via Fisher-Tropsch or Sabatier synthesis. In short, for oil to be able to *physically* run out, you need "peak energy" to occur.

      Of course, the doomers make lots of other arguments. They're easily taken down, though. And I do mean "doomers". The more extreme ones are sort of a death cult.

      --
      But this Rottweiler not only is snarling and frothing at the mouth; it also went to Harvard.
    3. Re:Fungible by universalconstant · · Score: 3, Insightful

      You seem to be forgetting (deliberately?) that oil is primarily used as an energy _source_. Sure, you can make it artificially. But when it takes more energy to make that than it contains it is no longer an energy source, it's an energy _sink_. But don't let that worry your head in the sand.

  4. Re:Nice by snl2587 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I'm not going to hold my breath.

    I wouldn't. Even with that much oil it still is going to run out someday. If anything we should leave it alone for now to ensure that we don't end up with massive shortages as we transition to alternative fuel sources.

  5. Securing energy independece...until it's gone by RedSteve · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Even if the field is as productive as the summary makes it sound, it should be treated as a reprieve, not as an absolute solution.

    1. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by I+Like+Pudding · · Score: 5, Funny

      WHY DO YOU HATE AMERICA?

    2. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by CannonballHead · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The automatic shade of "It's not really as good as it seems" is interesting. Anyway, of course it's not an absolute solution, but is there any reason not to use it?

      We still use paper, even though we have digital stuff, too. I don't see why we should make paper insanely expensive simply to push towards going entirely digital (or something like that).

      If there's a huge deposit of oil in US... well, hopefully there is no endangered snail that has to live on that huge plot of land. :) Also, regarding your subject line, I am not sure anyone is quite as stupid as you would make them out to be, that we have found an infinite supply of oil that will make us independence forever. Is your point that since it's not a renewable resource, we shouldn't pursue it at all, or use it to get partially energy independent while working on securing energy independence in other ways?

    3. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by pitchpipe · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Good news everybody, we've found an extra 12 days of oil.

      1 billion barrels / 85 million bpd

      http://www.eia.doe.gov/neic/quickfacts/quickoil.html

      --
      Look where all this talking got us, baby.
    4. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by Urkki · · Score: 2, Funny

      12 years, *phew*. That should push peak oil just enough so I won't live to see it! And those pesky kids deserve what's coming to them. THEY, the future generations, must to solve their own problems of energy, instead of using the energy OUR parents have invented!

    5. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by jamesh · · Score: 3, Insightful

      but is there any reason not to use it?

      Depends what you mean by 'use'. If you mean 'burn' then yes, there are plenty of reasons, and almost all of them have to do with taking carbon out of the ground and putting it into the air, while we are spending billions of dollars trying to figure out how to put the carbon back into the ground again.

      If you mean 'turn into other products like plastic and vaseline' then go for it :)
    6. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by I+Like+Pudding · · Score: 2, Funny

      You know what I, personally, hate? Literal replies to facetious internet posts.

    7. Re:Securing energy independece...until it's gone by tehdaemon · · Score: 2, Funny

      I suggest that you start posting somewhere else on the internet then. This is /. after all.

      Another literal reply to a facetious internet post brought to you by T ;-)

      --
      Laws are horrible moral guides, moral guides make even worse laws.
  6. Giant shale fields... by lpangelrob · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Giant shale fields still make for expensive recovery costs. And will this make make large expanses of the Dakotas like the strip mines of West Virginia?

    1. Re:Giant shale fields... by Itchyeyes · · Score: 5, Informative

      I think you're confusing oil shale with plain old shale. The Bakken is a traditional shale formation, so recovery costs are not that high. Wells are generally economic as long as the price of oil stay above around $70/bbl. And no this won't make the Dakota's like West Virginia. The reason the Bakken is now economic is because of advances in horizontal drilling. When wells are drilled horizontally they are spaced much farther apart. Currently Bakken wells in North Dakota are drilled about 1 to every square mile. A standard oil well will take up about 3-5 acres of surface area in that square mile.

    2. Re:Giant shale fields... by kimvette · · Score: 2, Informative

      Replying to undo moderation. Selected funny rather than informative. :(

      --
      The Christian Right is Neither (Christian nor right). See: Matthew 23, Matthew 25, Ezekiel 16:48-50
    3. Re:Giant shale fields... by Daimanta · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wow, my parent got a +1 Informative by saying he has mismoderated someone?

      Count me in.

      Posting to undo moderation. Selected Insightful rather than Informative :(

      --
      Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power lost.
  7. Re:Nice by fluffykitty1234 · · Score: 2, Informative

    There is already production happening, so go ahead and take a nice long deep breath now...

  8. At what cost? by jcr · · Score: 2, Informative

    TFA says it's a shale deposit. We've known for decades that there's more oil in tar sands and shales in North America than there is in the Saudi fields, but there's the small detail of how much it costs to extract it.

    -jcr

    --
    The only title of honor that a tyrant can grant is "Enemy of the State."
    1. Re:At what cost? by SpryGuy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      So what IS the cost, per barrel, of pulling it out of the ground?

      It's literally pennies to pull it out in Kuwait. But Oil is trading for over $100/barrel now. So if the costs are anything up to about $50/barrel to recover, there's still some profit motive left to go after it.

      I've read all sorts of numbers, but I'm wondering at what point it becomes desirable, not just feasable, to go after that oil and start exploiting those fields.

      And then there's the conspiracy theorist in me who wonders if they aren't purposely driving hte price of oil up in order to make exploiting domestic oil that much more realistic, and thus wean us off the foreign teat...

      --

      - Spryguy
      There are three kinds of people in this world: those that can count and those that can't
    2. Re:At what cost? by Itchyeyes · · Score: 4, Informative

      A horizontal Bakken well costs about $5 million to drill and about $7000/month to operate. Most of these wells are economic at around $70/bbl.

  9. Re:Bad news for Saskatchewan by Robber+Baron · · Score: 2, Funny

    Soon it will be flooded with Albertans. ...and Newfies.

    --

    You're using her as bait, Master!

  10. Dear Canada, by circletimessquare · · Score: 5, Funny

    Dear Canada,

    Concerning this oilfield which lays below the Dakotas and Saskatchewan: if you have a milkshake, and I have a milkshake, and I have a straw. There it is, that's a straw, you see? You watching? And my straw reaches acroooooooss the room, and starts to drink your milkshake... I... drink... your... milkshake! SLURP I drink it up!

    Bludgeonly yours,
    the USA

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:Dear Canada, by tsotha · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah, except this is shale, which is a lot more like rock than a milkshake. You're gonna look pretty funny trying to suck that through a straw.

    2. Re:Dear Canada, by Itchyeyes · · Score: 3, Informative

      The process described in "There Will be Blood" has long since been outlawed. Oil fields are carefully regulated to ensure that wells are properly spaced and not draining neighboring owner's reserves.

    3. Re:Dear Canada, by Surt · · Score: 4, Funny

      No worries, she's talented.

      --
      "Who is the Journal of Quantum Physics going to believe?" --Stephen Hawking
    4. Re:Dear Canada, by big_paul76 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Dear USA:
            That may be true, but thanks to the Alberta oil boom of late, we are the current leading edge of new tech for recovery of non-standard types of oil. If you want to have a race to see who can get it out first, we'll even give you a 2-year head start, just to make it sporting.

      Yes, yes, we all know you could invade us without breaking a sweat, but can you live without the oil coming in from Alberta? How about the electricity that comes from James Bay Hyrdo? If you wanna see what life would be like without it, imagine everything east of Chicago living under a blackout. Yes, you have a great big expensive army, but I don't think you have enough troops to protect 2000 miles of power lines from being dynamited.

      Oh, yeah, and we're a nuclear 'threshold' country, so we could fire up a nuke and a delivery vehicle that could hit Washington in 2 or 3 years max. So draw when ready, pardner.

      Sincerely,
      The Dominion of Canada.

      --
      The plural form of "anecdote" is "anecdotes", not "evidence".
  11. Ssh! Don't tell anybody! by flyingfsck · · Score: 5, Funny

    We got to finish off the Arab oil first, to reduce their political influence in the world.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
    1. Re:Ssh! Don't tell anybody! by wces423 · · Score: 4, Funny

      dude, the reserve might be connected to Arab oil reserve under ground. You may consider yourself to be wise-ass for not consuming it but in reality you can be a dumb-ass buying your own oil from middle-east.

  12. More info needed by Anna+Merikin · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Last I heard -- a long, long time ago -- extraction of shale oil deposits required abundant water, as the technology then used steam to liquify the oil and release it from the shale.

    Last I heard, there was not abundant water in the area of the deposits. If a /. reader with recent expertise in the extraction of oil from shale would post a reply on the most recent technologies and the free or cheap water requirement, I would be, as they say in the Western Movies, "beholden."

    Otherwise, like those in California's Central Valley, the extent and practical worth of such deposits is debatable.

    Of course, we can hope.

  13. Re:Uhhh, What? by introspekt.i · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Hold up there, buddy. I didn't say it was anything. I just said it had nothing to do with ecology. Not that it's a good thing, though. It comes from a line of thinking that doesn't really take an ecological perspective on things...which probably isn't good. The term just reflects a point of view. You could use a more precise term like "sustainable energy independence", then we could all hold hands and dance and sing around the Maypole.

  14. Re:The $100+ Million Question by flyingfsck · · Score: 2, Informative

    About $50 per barrel - a little higher than oil from Albertan tar sands, which is about $40 per barrel. Considering that the price is $100 per barrel, there are tremendous profits here. The price of oil is so high, that even the South African oil from coal project at about $60 per barrel, is immensely profitable.

    --
    Excuse me, but please get off my Pennisetum Clandestinum, eh!
  15. Re:I suppose a good question is... by Khaed · · Score: 2, Funny

    Two words: Roseanne Barr.

  16. Wow, imagine what this will do for gas prices! by epp_b · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Absolutely nothing!

  17. Re:Uhhh, What? by pclminion · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I'm simply questioning how a country can be "independent," in an energy respect or otherwise, when the world literally can't be lived upon. Finding a mass reserve will do nothing but encourage Americans to burn oil even more wantonly -- this would seem to be a form of independence, up until the very last second, when what is left of humanity murder each other in a primal, animalistic rage for scarce remaining resources.

  18. Oil Dependance by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    This is inaccurate:

    "Such a reserve would go a long way toward securing US energy independence."

    This is correct:

    "Such a reserve would go a long way toward securing US energy dependency on oil."

  19. And in other news ... by Skapare · · Score: 3, Funny

    ... Canada has just begun to beef up the military defenses on its long southern border.

    --
    now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
    1. Re:And in other news ... by jamstar7 · · Score: 3, Funny

      Did you sharpen your skates and lay in a good supply of back bacon?

      --
      Understanding the scope of the problem is the first step on the path to true panic.
  20. This is not a problem by symbolset · · Score: 2, Informative

    The region has sufficient water to deal with this issue. There are challenges here but his is not one of them.

    There is also enough geothermal energy here that we don't even need the petroleum if we could convert and store it properly.

    --
    Help stamp out iliturcy.
  21. Re:Uhhh, What? by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 4, Informative

    Energy Independence is completely separate from clean energy. Energy Independence means that the Middle East doesn't have the power to stop our economy instantly. Clean energy means energy that is less pollutant. The two are often used together because the adoption of clean energy brings energy independence (since most clean energy solutions can be implemented in the US). Thus clean energy implies energy independence, but not vice-versa.

  22. An oil shale field, not an oil field by Thagg · · Score: 2, Informative

    It has been known for decades that there is a tremendous amount of oil shale and tar sands in this area. The challenge, and it is a significant challenge, is to extract the oil from these deposits in a way that isn't an environmental catastrophe of epic proportions. As is often the case, the wikipedia article is a great introduction to the topic.

    Extracting oil from oil shale in the most obvious way involves heating it (probably with oil, but you do get more out than you put in, usually). So, you scoop it out of the massive open-pit mine, heat it, get the oil out, and then dispose of the remaining rock. Paradoxically, you end up changing the nature of the rock, so that it takes up more space than it originally did -- so even if you put all the tailings back into where it was mined, you'd end up with a new set of mountains. The net energy you end up with after processing the oil shale isn't a lot, and ridiculous amounts of water are necessary in the process (water the mountain west just doesn't have.)

    It should be noted that the Canadians are talking about building nuclear plants in their tar sands regions to supply the energy necessary to liberate the oil from the tar sands, in sort of a nuclear->oil scheme.

    According to the Wikipedia article, there have been oil shale processing programs in the past, some on a fairly large scale. They have fallen by the wayside as conventional oil has been so inexpensive.

    I believe that the environmental impact of extracting oil from oil shale on the scale required to keep the world running on oil as it is today would have a devastating environmental impact. Probably not as bad as a nuclear war fought over the remaining conventional oil resources...probably.

    --
    I love Mondays. On a Monday, anything is possible.
  23. Re:Nice by ChromeAeonium · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I don't disagree that oil should be on the way out, but at the moment we still need and use it, and due to the current political issues with oil, I'd much rather be depleting a cheap domestic supply than the alternative. If we don't use this one, we'll simply use another one. The way I see it we should drill there and get the oil, but still focus on the development of alternate fuels. Hopefully, by the time this supply's running low, there will be a viable substitute. Then again, if oil's cheap it might take some of the pressure off alternate fuel research, but I'd hope people aren't that short-sighted.

  24. Re:Uhhh, What? by teknomage1 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Why do people always discuss National Energy Independence, when the oil is just going to be harvested by a multinational energy corporation and sold at whatever the market will bear?

    --
    Stop intellectual property from infringing on me
  25. Re:biotic origin by Itchyeyes · · Score: 4, Informative

    The current reservoir rock at the North Pole was not actually located at the North Pole when it formed millions of years ago. See plate tectonics.

  26. Re:The $100+ Million Question by TubeSteak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    About $50 per barrel - a little higher than oil from Albertan tar sands, which is about $40 per barrel. Considering that the price is $100 per barrel, there are tremendous profits here. The only problem with that line of thought is that it assumes $100 a barrel is here to stay.

    Current prices have nothing to do with supply or demand issues and everything to do with (1) the crappy value of the US dollar, (2) the ongoing instability in/around Iraq, (3) ongoing violence and instability in Nigeria and (4) Hugo Chavez's ongoing nationalization of industries while threatening to stop oil exports to the USA.
    --
    [Fuck Beta]
    o0t!
  27. Re:Nice by hardburn · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Yeah, all the SUVs being replaced with Priuses are just a figment of a diseased mind.

    --
    Not a typewriter
  28. Re:biotic origin by Blackeagle_Falcon · · Score: 2, Informative

    We're talking geologic time here, long enough for continental drift to have totally reshaped the face of the earth. The parts of the North American and Eurasian plates under the Arctic Ocean where oil and gas can be found weren't always at the pole.

  29. Re:The real question is *SHOULD* you use it by Itchyeyes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A lot of people question the wisdom of continuing the oil economy, there just aren't a lot of clear cut answers. There are a lot of possibilities, and a lot of people are working hard to make those possibilities a reality, but at the moment nothing is really ready to take oil's (and for that matter coal's) place in our energy production on a large enough scale.

  30. At the rate we use it, this wouldn't last long by paxundae · · Score: 2, Insightful
    I believe we (the United States) are burning around 7.5 billion barrels per year at the moment. I'm not a mathematician, but that gives us around 13 years per every 100 billion barrels we're able to extract.

    Unless, of course, our usage keeps going up (as recently as 1990, it was around 6 billion barrels per year).

    All in all, it would be optimistic to assume we'd get a decade out of each 100 billion barrels we get to the surface. A decade is a long time, but I wouldn't call it "energy independence." I could easily live long enough to see these reserves disappear, even if we do have 500 billion barrels, and my kids certainly will.

    True independence will need something renewable.

  31. Re:Uhhh, What? by ZachPruckowski · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Oil demand in the US is pretty inelastic in the short term. This means that people will pay whatever they have to keep the heat running in their homes or to drive to work/school. If oil prices rise 50%, demand might fall 5% or 10% (as people lower the thermostat or skip driving to the gym).

    As a result, if oil supply dropped by even 25% (as it did during the Yom Kippur War embargo in 1973), it would take drastic measures to reduce consumption by 25%. Like shutting factories, gas rationing at the pumps, closing schools in the winter, massive inflation (as transportation costs skyrocket), all kinds of bad stuff. In the long term, people buy more efficient cars or heat-proof their houses, but in the short term, only the most painful of measures can reduce consumption.

    National Energy Independence means avoiding this. If multinational corporations threatened to reduce US oil output by 25% if their demands weren't met, we'd have troops nationalizing the oil fields within 72 hours.

  32. Re:biotic origin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    So there's a good explanation for all that stuff under the north pole? Hey, how'd ya think the Big Man powered his toy workshop? Magic? Ha! Good ol' fashioned oil and an endless supply slave labor, my friend.
  33. Re:100 Billion Barrels of Greenhouse Gases by dasunt · · Score: 3, Interesting

    One of the more intriguing ideas I've heard is to seed the deep ocean with iron.

    Iron is a limiting factor in the growth of plankton, especially in the resource poor areas of the ocean.

    Add iron, plankton grows. Plankton absorbs CO2, then dies, sinking.

  34. I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by Travoltus · · Score: 5, Interesting

    And in China they say "The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step."

    So it takes decades to convert our society to renewable energy. That means we start TODAY. In earnest.

    The conversion of America to alternative, clean, renewable energy (and not the Ethanol Scam) is an engineering and collective will issue, not a scientific issue.

    If I were President, my plan would be to take a manual transmission approach to the issue.

    Here's how my "Manhattan Project" would go:

    Gear 1 - the quick, short term stuff. Corporate tax breaks and subsidies for electric car production. Electric cars have existed - even electric SUV's (the old RAV-4, anyone? Don't tell me I'm wrong, I NOW HAVE ONE - they're just not being made anymore).

    Tax breaks and rebates for solar energy panels on houses and apartments. BIG breaks and rebates, proportional to the kilowatt/hour rating of the installed system. We fund this tax break by stimulating the economy - solar energy purchases and then the resulting rise in consumer spending as energy prices decrease ESPECIALLY DURING THE BOILING HOT SUMMER.

    Start funding and constructing pebble bed nuclear power plants. Go bare knuckle with the environmentalists. James Lovelock, the founder of the Gaia Theory, supports this as an intermediate step towards cleaner, more renewable energy in the future. This should take 20-30 years to realize the benefits. Best to start now.

    Gear 2 - Incentives for solar powered electric chargers for gas stations to power up electric cars. Make use of the existing infrastructure to change the infrastructure.

    Start construction on a 500 sq mile solar farm in a sunny, remote location. Or break up said solar farm into several sunny locations around the country. This is enough power for the entire world during the day.

    Slowly phase out coal power plants when exceeded by its solar cousins, but leave enough to take care of night time/bad weather issues.

    Government contracts to research higher miles-per-charge for cars.

    Gear 3 - A nationwide "give back to the power grid" incentive for homes. Basically, people who generate solar power on their rooftops while they are at work and nothing's going on in their house, profit when they're using no power and their solar panels are pumping energy back into the grid. They get 100% MARKET VALUE for that energy - exactly 1 for 1 versus what they would pay if they used it. Adjusted daily, weekly or monthly, however it goes.

    Bigger Government contracts to research higher miles-per-charge for cars. Performance based. Now we start pushing for conversions of the big haulers (big rigs), as well as pushing them to bio diesel with emphasis on converting used veggie oil, etc.

    Gear 4 - the first pebble bed nuclear plants go online. Drastic "as immediate as possible" cutbacks in coal and oil powered plants but not enough to completely offset the new nuclear plants.

    More Government contracts to research higher miles-per-charge for electric and biodiesel-powered big rigs. Performance based.

    Gear 5 - shutdown of all remaining polluting (Coal/Oil) power plants as all planned nuclear reactors go online and the solar farms are up, and over 50% of all US homes are solar powered.

    Hopefully at this point we won't need Government contracts for high miles-per-charge cars; the market should reach critical mass. Research for electric and biodiesel powered big rigs continues until every new rig produced runs on one or the other.

    Manhattan project complete. The big mushroom cloud you see is the giant earth-shattering KABOOM that is OPEC corporate heads exploding along with their profits.

    --
    --- Grow a pair, liberals... stop letting the Republicans bully you!
    1. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by moosesocks · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Solar cannot replace Coal. It's completely unsuitable for supplying base-load power because it only works half the time (at best).

      Right now, nuclear is the only viable alternative to coal that we have. Based upon the proposals for new plants to be constructed, it looks like Nuclear is quickly becoming the preferred source for new construction. It won't happen overnight, but I'm confident that we're moving in the right direction.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    2. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by dlevitan · · Score: 2, Informative
      I'll just comment on some of the stuff mostly unique to this post:

      Tax breaks and rebates for solar energy panels on houses and apartments. BIG breaks and rebates, proportional to the kilowatt/hour rating of the installed system. We fund this tax break by stimulating the economy - solar energy purchases and then the resulting rise in consumer spending as energy prices decrease ESPECIALLY DURING THE BOILING HOT SUMMER. This is unfair. Why should someone in the northeast, where there is much less sunlight, have to pay for someone to get cheap electricity in the southwest? In fact, most of the country is not hot and sunny year round. Only the southwest. It's not like you can transmit their energy to people in the northeast. If the state of Arizona or New Mexico wants to do this, great. But it should not be federal.

      Incentives for solar powered electric chargers for gas stations to power up electric cars. Make use of the existing infrastructure to change the infrastructure.

      Corporate tax breaks and subsidies for electric car production. Electric cars have existed - even electric SUV's (the old RAV-4, anyone? Don't tell me I'm wrong, I NOW HAVE ONE - they're just not being made anymore). You RAV4 (according to Wikipedia) can do 80-120 miles on a charge. That's nothing. That's not enough to commute for many people if there's nowhere to charge at work. And as for longer trips? 80 miles is just over an hour worth of driving. I like going places, not staying at home.

      And even worse, it takes your RAV4 5 hours to charge. So what you're proposing is that I drive for 1 hour only to stop at a gas station for 5 hours.

      And yes, I'm sure newer cars are better at this, but not good enough. That's why purely electric cars don't work.

      Start construction on a 500 sq mile solar farm in a sunny, remote location. Or break up said solar farm into several sunny locations around the country. This is enough power for the entire world during the day.

      Slowly phase out coal power plants when exceeded by its solar cousins, but leave enough to take care of night time/bad weather issues. How do you buy the land? Who funds this? Why coal for at night? What do you do with all the excess energy during the day?

      A nationwide "give back to the power grid" incentive for homes. At least in NY, this is required. When you use power off the grid, the meter rolls up. When you give power back to the grid, the meter rolls down.

      Your ideas, while perfect in an ideal world, do not work in the real world. Maybe in 30 years we'll have the battery technology to pull of good electric cars. Not right now.
    3. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Very Well thought out plan. Very similar to what I tell people all the time. The pebble bed reactor is great. I was in the nuclear Navy as a nuclear Machinist Mate on submarines and know nuclear power fairly well. I also worked at Oak Ridge TN when I got out of the Navy. There is enough nuclear material right now stored away to power our electrical needs for over 1000 years or more.

      I also agree on the tax breaks and incentives for the "green" power ideas. All of this together would work and in less than 10 years we COULD be energy independent. Without oil to fund radical Islam terrorists the world would be a safer place also.

      China is way ahead of us on the pebble bed reactor and if we do not start an energy program soon (and no sticking your head in the sand is NOT an energy program) we will be a 2nd rate nation that relies on the good will of other nations instead of leading the world like we do know.

    4. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by drsmithy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Invest in decent public transport. There should be no _need_ for anyone living within 10-20km of the centre of any reasonably large city (few hundred thousand people and up) to own a car.

    5. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by Ihlosi · · Score: 2, Insightful
      I am *not* making those trips with 2 young children on any form of public transportation.

      Well, a 3-hour train ride is much more fun for kids (due to being able to run around, having more space, etc) than being strapped into a car seat for 3 hours. That is, if you have decent quality trains. If you have _fast_ trains, then those 250 miles would be a 2-hour train ride, which oughta beat the heck out of driving, especially at the slow speeds allowed in the States.

    6. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by mhalagan · · Score: 2, Informative
      Germany is the current world's superpower of solar energy, and they receive sunlight similar to Seattle. All you are doing is regurgitating misinformed info. There is plenty of sunlight in Northern US. Solar works even during overcast.

      As far as EV goes millions of people have commutes to work which are less than the current capacity of battery power. Throw in the opportunity for their cars to be charging while they are working during the day, and EV become even more viable.

      As of right now, it's not that we can't move towards greener energy use. It's that too many people have too much too lose / gain. Depending how you want to see it. Our president is just one of many people who profit from oil.

    7. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think you understand how big the United States actually is, and how spread out people are here.

      I'm from Australia. I think I've got a reasonably good handle on spread out populations in large landmasses.

      OTOH, I don't think _you_ realise just how well a co-ordinated, comprehensive public transport system can work. Particularly when you're only limiting yourself to relatively high-density urban areas.

      I live within this 10-20 KM os the center of a city, but routinely have to travel.

      How frequently ? To where ? What stops you using public transport ? What would allow you to ?

      Weekly my wife drives to her mother's house, which is about 60 miles away.

      So once a week she grabs a short term rental car and drives over there.

      I am *not* making those trips with 2 young children on any form of public transportation.

      Instead of having to strap your children into the back of a car for ~4-5 hours and concentrate on driving, you can interact with them for 2-3 hours and arrive at your destination earlier, less stressed and having possibly spent the time getting there doing something useful rather that sitting in a car doing nothing.

      (Bonus, this will almost certainly be cheaper than actually owning and running multiple cars.)

      Clarification: in my previous post I was talking about owning a vehicle for "personal use" and excluding people for who it is a necessary part of their work (builders, electricians, etc). Note that "commuting" isn't a "necessary part of work" with decent public transport (although why anyone would *prefer* to drive in the presence of a decent public transport system is beyond me). I should also emphasise that I don't believe people shouldn't be allowed to have cars, merely that they shouldn't feel like owning one is required to make life livable.

    8. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by Jonathan_S · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Bigger Government contracts to research higher miles-per-charge for cars. Performance based. Now we start pushing for conversions of the big haulers (big rigs), as well as pushing them to bio diesel with emphasis on converting used veggie oil, etc.
      Since current diesel electric trains are almost 4 times as efficient (gallons per ton/mile) as trucks I'd have your hypothetical bigger government start by canceling out some of the existing subsidized infrastructure for trucks* and increase subsidizing of infrastructure for freight trains. By mostly converting from long haul trucking to long haul train and using trucks for semi-local deliveries you immediately get a big improvement.

      And rail lines are vastly easier to electrify that big rigs.

      *(Sure a lot of that infrastructure is also for cars, but they can certainly add taxes or road fees specifically to trucks to reduce the economic incentive to use them without reducing the infrastructure for personal cars)
    9. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by geekoid · · Score: 2, Informative

      Actually, new solar plants work more then half the time.

      They super heat water and then store it and use it latter. Right now these plants(prototypes) can give power up to 6 hours after dark. With refinements to the technology there really isn't a reason to see it move into a 24 hours operation.

      Not to poo-poo nuclear energy, I am a fan, but the newer solar technologies are shaping up nicely.

      we aren't talking about solar panels here, we are talking about solar collector the aim there energy in to a pip the length of a football field and generate many hundreds of megawatt.
      Which can be expanded by just buying land.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    10. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by careysub · · Score: 3, Interesting

      "Solar cannot replace Coal. It's completely unsuitable for supplying base-load power because it only works half the time (at best)."

      Solar thermal power is perfectly capable of supplying base load, i.e. continuous, power and it is also the most attractive technology for large commercial solar power plants. See Solar Thermal Energy for a convenient introduction.

      Solar thermal power uses concentrated solar light to heat a heat transfer fluid. The heat can be stored in a large insulated tank or other thermal mass very cheaply, with negligible energy loss. Averaging power output over the day-night cycle is fairly easy, and averaging over several days is also feasible.

      Note also that all base load plants (coal, hydro, nuclear) are down part of the time for maintenance.

      --
      Starships were meant to fly, Hands up and touch the sky - Nicky Minaj
    11. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "It's not like you can transmit their energy to people in the northeast."

      Why not? you can transmit across the country with about a 10% loss.

      In fact the new solar collectors are planned to do just that, collect gigawatts in the South West, and transm,itt it across the country.

      These aren't you're roof top solar panels btw, they are huge reflector that focus the light onto a huge pipe of water are some other solution., that turns a generators. One of these pipes is about 100 yards long, and you could build several of these in the Southwest desert.
      The liquid is stored, and used to turn a turbine. They can store it for many hours after dark.
      This is doable, today.

      "At least in NY, this is required. When you use power off the grid, the meter rolls up. When you give power back to the grid, the meter rolls down."
      federal law, actually. However the system is limit do to physical limitation on how much you can send back.

      Electric cars are fine for 95% of the daily commuters in the US. If you travel more then a couple of hundred mile, get a non-electric car for those drives.

      I don't hate SUVs, I mean there great for camping and pulling boats and what not, but why people use them for commuting to work is beyond me. A complete waste of their money. I mean, buy a Geo metro, get 40+ MPG and they cost less then 50 bucks a year to maintain, and 4 good tires cost about 125 bucks, total.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    12. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by notabaggins · · Score: 2, Informative

      Solar cannot replace Coal. It's completely unsuitable for supplying base-load power because it only works half the time (at best). Except that's missing the point.

      We have vast areas of the country where solar is already viable as an energy source. Albeit pricey but prices are falling. And a massive infusion would bring them down further. Thin film, for example, could potentially reach parity with coal in mass production.

      Given the huge difference between day time consumption and night time consumption, reductions in day time consumption are more significant than night time consumption. And will be unless we all became, heh, vampires or something like that.

      Further, consider the population of the Southwestern US. While areas such as AZ and NM may be rather small, SoCal is greater in population than many nations on Earth. Even if you were talking about solar for, oh, a third of the US, you're covering a lot of people and, by the way, a lot of air conditioners.

      There's another thing to consider.

      I lived in LA during those lovely rolling blackouts. One thing I've noticed is that CFLs are much, much cheaper these days than when we in LA were changing out every bulb we could find. That many people buying CFLs en masse may well have boosted CFL production into that tipping point of mass manufacturing where prices start falling.

      So the rest of the country benefited from the results of the "early adopters" being literally hundreds of thousands of frantic Angelinos trying to stop the blackouts.

      Suppose we subsidize the crap out of a big push to get the Southwest to move to solar as much as possible. Creating a big market for solar would bring prices down. Getting heavily populated areas such as LA "off grid" even just sometimes, even just a few hours a day, reduces the pressure on the national grid. Which could, ironically enough, result in stabilizing prices for the rest of us who can't use solar.

      And a big ramp up in solar could result in prices falling to the point where it would be worth installing even in other areas. Say areas where you'd only get, oh, a 25% cut in your bill. Nothing to do cartwheels over but I'd do it if the prices came down enough to make it viable for even just a quarter off my electric bill (which continues to climb... sigh).

      Yeah, it's not a cure all. But it has the potential to make a serious and significant impact.

      I don't care for nuclear at all but recognize we may have backed ourselves into a corner. Still, the more we can do with other sources, the fewer of those plants we'll need eh?
    13. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by indros13 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Take a look at some of the new concentrating solar plants, such as the recently completed Nevada Solar One. They come with several hours of thermal storage, allowing electricity production when the sun doesn't shine. Some proposed plants have 12 hours of storage or more.

      Solar hasn't provided baseload power in the past, but it may soon.

      --
      Under capitalism man exploits man. Under communism it's the other way around.
    14. Re:I am not a petrol engineer but I know Chinese by toddestan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You RAV4 (according to Wikipedia) can do 80-120 miles on a charge. That's nothing. That's not enough to commute for many people if there's nowhere to charge at work. And as for longer trips? 80 miles is just over an hour worth of driving. I like going places, not staying at home.

      And even worse, it takes your RAV4 5 hours to charge. So what you're proposing is that I drive for 1 hour only to stop at a gas station for 5 hours.

      And yes, I'm sure newer cars are better at this, but not good enough. That's why purely electric cars don't work.


      How far do you drive to work? Most people don't have a 40 mile one way commute. Those that do should move, as that's wasteful by any means of getting there, and who wants to spend 2 hours a day in the car? For a short while I had a 20 mile one way commute, and I thought that was crazy enough.

      Besides, that's missing the point. An electric vehicle like the RAV4 electric is a poor only car, but it's a great secondary car for a family. Most families have 2 vehicles nowadays, and they tend to have a larger "family" vehicle for the trips and family excursions, and a smaller "commuter" that one of the parents uses to get to work. An electric, even one with a modest range like the electric RAV4, would make a perfect commuter (except for those few that have the insane 80+ mile commutes) and there's a huge market for that. We can start there, and use what we learn to build the 400 mile electric minivan later.

  35. "In situ": The oil is "baked" out of the shale by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    Synopsis: the perimeter around a plot of "oil shale land" is deep drilled, the holes are filled with water, and then frozen, to form a vertical ice dam surrounding the plot.

    The center area is also drilled, and the deep rock there is then heated over the course of a year or two. At some point the hydrocarbons literally boil up to the surface and can be recovered (the land is drilled, but not mined). The ice dam keeps the hydrocarbons from contaminating the ground water.

    Shell has been working on this for a while, and I believe they have now proven this technology on a test plot or two located on the oil shale lands in western Colorado. At some point the cost of "pumped oil" will rise high enough that this option then becomes competitive on even on a small scale. After that, it should take off as the economies of scale increasingly kick in.

    This article suggests it might already be commercially viable (at a price of $30/barrel):

    http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/news_columnists/article/0,1299,DRMN_86_4051709,00.html

    The US should be in the catbird seat if it works--I believe the worlds largest deposits of oil shale lie entirely within US borders. We'll benefit the most too by making a general shift over to diesel engines (rather than gasoline engines), because of the nature of those oil shale hydrocarbons, but I don't see that as much of an issue. People are still buying new cars as their old ones wear out.

  36. Re:100 Billion Barrels of Greenhouse Gases by dbIII · · Score: 3, Insightful
    The big problem we have is the cheap energy we need to get rid of the CO2 is from sources that make the stuff. As a parallel limestone would be a fantastic way to tie up carbon dioxide - until you think of how you would get the calcium.

    There really is incredible amounts of energy wastage we can target first with nothing but behavioural issues and political stubbonness in the way. Airconditioning, transport and lighting are handled in very inefficient ways in a lot of situations and there are many industrial situations optimised for energy pricing that has very little to do with actual energy usage. In a lot of cases there is no incentive at all to use less energy when the sane situation would be to give those that cut their usage a discount. Where the climate change argument got weird and partisan political was when economic penalties and the prospect of a new artificial market to make money in appeared. There is also an overemphasis on penalties which is just making enemies of those that could be using less (but don't use less because they get no saving at all on their energy bills) and just stretches out the time before any action is taken by a few more years. We need to avoid what is really fairytale bullshit from many (not the above poster but often economists) and get back to the idea of actually doing what we can to burn less stuff instead. We're seeing things like traffic lights getting replaced by an array of LED's, streetlights with reflectors so that lower power bulbs do the same job and other measures that cut power consumption in places where the power bill for a city is actually lower if they use less electricity - and no effort at all in places that just face the threat of some sort of carbon tax in the future. To get large savings we need large organisations to make major efforts. It costs a lot to put in a railway line between two areas that a lot of people want to move between but it cuts down the daily energy use by a large amount.

  37. Re:Bring the boys back home, send em up N by Rei · · Score: 5, Informative

    B) This is about oil reserves INSIDE THE UNITED STATES

    Actually, the Bakken formation extends into Canada, too.

    The Bakken has a rather interesting history. Estimates on how much oil it produced have varied a lot. Back in the '70s, they thought it only had about 10B barrels -- which is a lot, but not when it's spread out over such a huge formation. To make matters worse, the formation is a dozen meters or so thick in most places. All together, recovery rates were expected to be 1-3%, and expensive at that. Not many takers.

    Things have changed. After Price's paper that predicted over 400 billion barrels, computer simulations have been developed; the latest runs expect 200-300 billion barrels. Furthermore, horizontal drilling means that you can enter the thin formation and then run along it; this is what is used in the very successful Elm Coulee field.

    The Bakken is just one minimally tapped deposit. There's absolutely no shortage of recoverable oil in the world. The problem is the consequences of recovering and burning it all.

    C) The US is moving to 'alternative fuels'. The debate is not over whether or not to, but how big a priority it is.

    Are you kidding? There's a huge debate over whether or not to, especially after the most recent papers suggesting that even sugarcane ethanol leads to more greenhouse gasses than gasoline. Let alone the fact that there's a widely growing acceptance that, despite the momentum, corn ethanol is a huge blunder. There's the food-for-fuel competition (food prices are up 40%, mostly from fuel prices and alternative fuel pressure). Now, I think it's good that corn prices aren't as artificially low as they used to be, but now they're artificially high, and everything is getting pushed up by the increased demand for biofuel land -- even other staples like wheat.

    And what about cellulosic ethanol, this supposed panacea? This is one thing that drives me crazy. Look at how most big cellulosic ethanol companies are making the stuff. They turn the biomass into syngas (CO+H2) by burning it in a poorly oxygenated environment, and then use a complex, inefficient biological or catalytic process to convert it into ethanol. Well, here's the thing: we've been making syngas into *gasoline* for most of a century. That's how Nazi Germany and Apartheid-era South Africa kept their engines running (excepting, in the case of Germany, after we bombed most of their facilities). And it's a relatively efficient -- 70% or so. So, instead of making a fuel that we're *already set up for*, we're instead making a *less dense* fuel that we can only use in *limited quantities* in most cars and *can't ship in our pipelines*. Why? Because "cellulosic gasoline" isn't a buzzword. Nobody likes the word "gasoline", but lots of people like the word "ethanol". You get more investment, you get more tax breaks, and on and on. So the inferior solution gets chosen.

    Anyways, if you want to *actually* clean up your act, either increase your MPG or switch your miles over to electricity (the significantly higher thermodynamic efficiencies of power plants mean that even dirty power plants run a car cleaner than a gasoline engine -- plus, electricity is a lot easier to clean up). Biofuels are an "easy" solution that isn't really a solution at all.

    --
    But this Rottweiler not only is snarling and frothing at the mouth; it also went to Harvard.
  38. Re:Nice by Adriax · · Score: 3, Funny

    Are ye daft?!? South Dakota is viking territory, not even a cooperative force of pirates and ninjas could take it. Even the hicks of wyoming fear a raid of viking longtrucks comming down I-90.

    --
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy every minute of it!
  39. Re:The real question is *SHOULD* you use it by tacocat · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Well of course we should use it.

    We're going to need every drop of it to invade all the other oil producing nations so we'll have even more oil. All sarcasm aside, this is a really going to be a set back to the American economy in the long run.

    While we are spending our time and money pulling oil out of the ground we are not going to be making any effort to develop alternatives, while the rest of the world (except China) is actually going to work on developing alternative energies.

    At some point we need to address the question of whether it's more important to lower the price of gas at the pump or take measures to develop more sustainable alternatives while we still have some oil to fall back onto. Alternatives to oil are not limited to the fuel pump, but all applications of oil. And plastic is going to be a hard one to replace.

  40. Re:Exactly by whatnotever · · Score: 5, Insightful

    For those of you that think it has any validity, try this 6 step experiment.

    1) Get a drinking straw.
    2) Go to a pool.
    3) Start sucking the water out of the pool as fast as you can with that straw. (You probably should not swallow the water)
    4) Go to the ocean.
    5) Start sucking the water out of the ocean as fast as you can with the same straw. (You definitely should not swallow the water)
    6) Now explain to us all how the amount of water that you sucked through the straw was dictated by reserve you are pulling from. Or try this experiment:

    1) Get a drinking straw.
    2) Get a really big sponge really soaking wet.
    3) Start sucking the water out of the sponge as fast as you can with that straw.
    4) If you start getting less water, try a different spot on the sponge.
    5) Marvel at how thought experiments can prove anything you want if they are divorced enough from the phenomenon of interest, but note that mine is probably closer to the reality of oil extraction than yours is.
  41. Re:The real question is *SHOULD* you use it by Xarin · · Score: 5, Insightful

    A lot of people question the wisdom of continuing the oil economy, there just aren't a lot of clear cut answers. There are a lot of possibilities, and a lot of people are working hard to make those possibilities a reality, but at the moment nothing is really ready to take oil's (and for that matter coal's) place in our energy production on a large enough scale. The real issue is that US dollars are no longer backed by gold but by oil. Oil is priced, bought and sold with dollars. This is how the dollar gets its value and one reason other governments must hold dollars as a reserve currency. It also allows the US government to print a lot of dollars without any ill effects as they are taken out of the US economy and held/spent abroad. They then are repatriated by being spent on US Treasury bonds which pays for the dollars being printed backwards. The US is like the ticket booth at a fair. It prints and sell the tickets while the rest of the world spends it on the rides. To eliminate oil is to effectively eliminate the dollar and to eliminate the dollar and replace it with another currency such as the euro is to effectively eliminate US sovereignty as its economic policies will no longer be solely its own. It may also lead the US to abandon its debt obligations to the peril of banks, Social Security, pensions etc. One should not cut off one of the branches that the world economy is sitting on without seriously considering the implications.
  42. No NAFTA - No Saskachewan Oil by GISGEOLOGYGEEK · · Score: 2, Interesting

    How exactly does oil in Saskatchewan increase US reserves?

    Last I checked, you americans were talking about shredding NAFTA ... which means giving up our tasty tasty oil. You don't think we'll let you have cheap oil in any re-negotiated NAFTA do you?

    What will it be? Cheap oil from your northern friends, or will you finally retrain the people who's manufacturing jobs went to Mexico and stop blaming Canada for it?

    --
    George Bush + Linux = "I will not let information get in the way of the fight against Windows"
  43. Arctic Seafloor has huge reserve as well by Ex-MislTech · · Score: 2, Informative
    --
    google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
  44. I don't think you go far enough. by Tatarize · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I fully understand that you can and we should shift away from fossil fuels as fast as possible and I strongly agree with all of your notes. However, I wouldn't restrict to just pebble bed reactors as a number of other reactors are passively safe and even just standard issue WPR are quite safe and quite effective. However, my main objection is that it just might be too little too late. I think there needs to be another Gear to research and implement some way to remove the heat-trapping pollution already in the atmosphere. Even if we stop as fast as you suggest we're still going to have 400 PPM of CO2 and it's still going to wreck havoc.

    Also, for the solar power plant we need to make a lot more solar cell plants probably with the ability to mass produce like that printing solar panel tech which has started to kick into high gear.

    --

    It is no longer uncommon to be uncommon.
  45. Re:100 Billion Barrels of Greenhouse Gases by MadMorf · · Score: 5, Informative

    Add iron, plankton grows. Plankton absorbs CO2, then dies, sinking.
    Nope. Plankton dies, releasing organo-phophates and nitrogen compounds into the water, which causes bacterial blooms, which depletes dissolved O2 levels, which causes other marine lifeforms to die, initiating a downward spiral...

    Not a marine biologist, but a marine aquarium owner. Been there, done that.

  46. Re:The real question is *SHOULD* you use it by doktorjayd · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The real issue is that US dollars are no longer backed by gold but by oil. Oil is priced, bought and sold with dollars. This is how the dollar gets its value and one reason other governments must hold dollars as a reserve currency it also appears to be the real underlying reason the bush/chaney regime went in to iraq: the formerly pliant iraqi administration was considering trading their oil exclusively in euros, leaving the Fiat Currency without its real underlying value, and they couldnt have that.

    what, with all the haliburon stock those guys have.
  47. I couldn't have said this better myself. by keirre23hu · · Score: 2, Informative

    I would add that any discussion on oil prices that does not account for inflation due to our depressed currency (US) is pointless.

  48. Funny because it's true... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I live in Ohio, a land of extremist motoring.

    On the upside, there is no property tax on motor vehicles, and insurance is relatively cheap. Fuel prices are below the national average. Hell, the supermarket sells discounted gasoline if you eat enough. Thank goodness my kids are little eating machines. Every so often, I can fill my BMW with premium for free.

    On the downside, there is hyperactive speed enforcement, low speed limits, and the ultimate speed enforcer -- poorly maintained roads.

    This place was made for Hummers and I see quite a few on the road every day. If anyone offers an SUV larger than Godzilla, we will set it first in Ohio.

  49. Re:Exactly by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I Drink Your MILKSHAKE! I Drink It Up!

  50. Re:The real question is *SHOULD* you use it by Itchyeyes · · Score: 2, Insightful

    At some point we need to address the question of whether it's more important to lower the price of gas at the pump or take measures to develop more sustainable alternatives while we still have some oil to fall back onto. Alternatives to oil are not limited to the fuel pump, but all applications of oil. And plastic is going to be a hard one to replace.

    The thing most people don't understand is that oil reservoirs deplete. As you pull oil out of the rock it decreases the pressure and decreases the amount you're able to pull out in the future. It's not just an issue of lowering the price at the pump. You have to work constantly just to keep the price at the pump where it is, and that's if demand is just steady. If we stop developing new reserves before we have a viable alternative to take its place, this $100/bbl we pay now is going to look like a drop in the bucket. And if energy starts getting too expensive there are some pretty dire consequences, like people not being able to afford turning on their heaters in the winter or people not being able to work because they can't afford transportation.
  51. Wrong type of inflation.. by keirre23hu · · Score: 2, Informative

    I'm talking about commodities... take a look. And if you think the fact that a the value of a dollar is now about .6 Euros, while oil is priced in dollars, does not affect what we are paying, I have some beautful beachfront property in Nogales, Arizona that you may be interested in.

  52. Re:Now Iraq is looking really stupid... by statichead · · Score: 2, Insightful

    If we were going to war for iraqs oil we would not be paying over $3 per gallon at the pump today.

  53. Nuke is out by WindBourne · · Score: 2, Interesting

    We did that here in colorado back in late 50's or early 60's. Turned out that residual radiation contaminated the oil.

    --
    I prefer the "u" in honour as it seems to be missing these days.
  54. Re:Environmentalist nutjobs by jtev · · Score: 4, Interesting

    We're talking midwest, not northeast. Trust me, there will be no trouble getting oil from there. This is "Flyover country" not "undisturbed wilderness" The buffalo have been long domesticated, and the native grass grows so fast that it has to be burned off each year to prevent REAL prarie fires. No real disruption of anything. I doubt it will be any more dificult than doing oil exploration in Oklahoma, and the Native Americans don't seem to have any issues with exploitation of the petrolium resources there. Now, getting the refineries built to deal with our new found wealth, that could be a problem, but just getting it, not so much.

    --
    That which is done from love exists beyond good and evil
  55. Only 10% of oil goes to automotive gasoline? by cnaumann · · Score: 5, Informative


    According to this cute chart:

    http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/whats_in_barrel_oil.html

    A little more than 50% of a barrel of oil becomes gasoline.

    And this little tidbit from the plastics industry:

    Less than .05% of a barrel of
    oil goes into making all the plastic bags used in the US while 93% - 95% of every barrel of
    crude oil is burned for fuel and heating purposes. Although they are made from natural gas or
    oil, plastic bags actually consume less fossil fuels during their lifetime than do compostable
    plastic and paper bags.


    http://www.plasticsindustry.org/about/fbf/myths+facts_grocerybags.pdf

    --

    Seriously, how many pounds of plastic bags could you possibly be using in a year? How many pounds of plastic on in your car? A weekly 15 gallon fill-up is about 90 pounds of fuel, or a little less than 2.5 tons a year. My whole car doesn't weight that much, and most of it is steel.

    Save your bags if it makes you feel good, but it ain't gonna make any real difference.

    1. Re:Only 10% of oil goes to automotive gasoline? by electrictroy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I think he has a valid point; and all it takes is a little "back of the envelope" calculations:

      - I burn about 1500 gallons of gasoline per year, which is around 7500 pounds of oil-based product.

      - I use about 250 bags per year, which is perhaps 10 pounds of oil-based product.

      Clearly the majority of my oil usage goes towards gasoline, and the plastic bag impact is negligible... just as the other guy was telling us.

      --
      The government is not your daddy. Its purpose is not to raid middle-class neighbors' wallets and give it to you.
    2. Re:Only 10% of oil goes to automotive gasoline? by Bryansix · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Save your bags if it makes you feel good, but it ain't gonna make any real difference.
      Actually the problem with plastic bags is a waste problem and not with how they are made. They are super efficient as carrying devices but then what? The catch a small breeze and now they are a litter problem bound to last for decades. The solution here is to use reusable bags. Also Ralph's (Kroger)has a program where each time you use a reusable bag you get 10 cents off the total of your purchases. I get 20 cents off each purchase because I have two of them. They pay for themselves in no time.
  56. Naive by immcintosh · · Score: 3, Interesting

    It's increasingly pissing me off the degree of naivete that everybody approaches the oil situation these days. Oooh, 1 billion barrels, that's a WHOLE LOT, right? Yeah, might want to consider that the U.S. alone uses over 20 million barrels a day. That's a whole whopping 50 days out of that one billion barrels. Tell me again about this energy independence nonsense? Not as long as we're depending on crude oil for it friends. Even assuming that's a HUNDRED billion barrels in there that can actually be extracted (and I'm going to say I kinda doubt it), that's a bit over ten years at current rates of consumption, less if you consider growth. Still not even approaching anything resembling meaningful independence.

    1. Re:Naive by Apotsy · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah, might want to consider that the U.S. alone uses over 20 million barrels a day. Not to mention the US imports about 2/3rds of that right now, so "independence" would require at least 13 million barrels a day to be coming out of this field, and that's after subtracting the amount of energy that has to be invested to get it out.

      So, besides the size of the field, there are these two factors to consider:

      1. Rate of extraction
      2. Energy Returned on Energy Invested (EROEI)

      If it can only be produced at 1 million barrels a day, but the US currently imports 13 million a day, that isn't going to mean much in terms of independence, is it?

      Also, since we're talking about shale, the EROEI is probably so low it might take as much as 600k barrels of oil worth of energy to extract each 1 million, leaving 400k net. So to make the US truly independent by matching its current import rate, this field would have to produce at a rate of more than 20 million barrels a day. That's a really high figure considering total worldwide production is around 70-80 million a day. Not bloody likely for this single field.

      In short it's very unlikely that it will put even a minor dent in the USA's need to import oil.