Slashdot Mirror
Blogger Subpoenaed for Criticizing Trial Lawyers
Cutie Pi writes "Katherine Seidel, mother of an autistic child and an avid blogger has been subpoenaed for her "family's bank records, tax returns, autism-related medical and educational records, and every communication concerning all of the issues to which [she] has devoted [her] attention and energy in recent years." The lawyer in question is representing a mother who is suing Bayer for $20M with the claim that mercury in their vaccines caused her child's autism. In her blog Seidel has spoken out against lawyers trying to cash in on thimerosal lawsuits, noting that the thimerosal-autism link has been debunked in several studies. But Seidel herself has had no direct involvement in the lawsuit."
It's chilling to think that with vaccines it's like Carson's Silent Spring all over again, except this time instead of damaging birds we're hurting our own children.
...this lawyer sounds like a Scientologist.
*HIDES*
What you hear in the ear, preach from the rooftop Matthew 10.27b
These people are angry and want something to take their frustrations out on. The fact that no studies provide any evidence of a link between the vaccines and autism is an minor inconvenience to be ignored!
Scumbag lawyers, shoddy science, willfully ignorant and upset parents - it's a perfect combination.
This is the worst of what our legal system allows. Now this woman is forced to hire an attorney just to defend her right to free speech. It makes me sick!
I thought it was Spring! What's that chilling effect in the air I feel?
Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
Practicing the finest abuses of perceived power man has ever known.
Poor Soul: "Anybody got one...?" Bayer: "Yes sir, that'll be $50.00" Poor Soul: "For a frikken aspirin?!" Bayer: "Yeah, we haven't made a vaccine for headaches yet..."
Well, yes, of course. How often on slashdot do we raise suspicions about the sources of funding and possible conflicts of interest for studies with passionate support (or criticism)?
Now imagine what you would do, if you had more resources; a strong voice in a legal channel; and a highly vested interest.
It's incredible the amount of unsubstantiated credence that some parents of autistic children will give to the thimerosal hypothesis. For example, Jenny McCarthy (who has an autistic child, and I have sympathy for her since it can't be easy) was on Larry King Live the other day, sititng next to someone who was there to debunk the supposed link between autism and thimerosal. His arguments were grounded in science, but she would not be moved, and she was extremely animated and emotional over any suggestion that thimerosal isn't to blame.
I suppose, in some sense, that it's like telling her that her religion is wrong.
"Freedom of speech is an American concept, so I don't give it any value.
Wrong on all counts, but the 1st Amendment does provide protections for free speech not available in many other countries, so I hope we see this particular instance of tort abuse smacked down hard.
Lawrence Person (lawrencepersonh@gmailh.com (remove all "h"s to mail)
http://www.lawrenceperson.com/
They want to make sure she wasn't being paid to blog by the pharmacutical companies for their impending suit with them. Is it dirty? Yep. Is it wrong? No
The lawyer may be a sick farker, but the judge who allows this, without sanction, is even sicker.
Third party subpoenas should be looked at under a microscope for relevance. This lady didn't manufacture, sell, or administrate the vaccine in question. What does she have to do with the underlying lawsuit?
Right because no blogger would ever post anything with a spin favorable to the interests of their corporate employer.
I am not a lawyer, but you just wait about six months.
The thing to understand about subpoenas is that in most states, once litigation commences, the lawyers (as officers of the court) for each side have the power to issue subpoenas to anyone who might have information relevant to the lawsuit.
The major limitations on such subpoenas are ethical limitations (attorneys' behavior is governed by a complex but far-from-bright-line set of rules) and the rules against discovery abuse, which can be found at Fed. R. Civ. P. 37(b) and elsewhere. The decision to grant sanctions is up to the discretion of the court, which basically means that an appellate court will go with what the judge decides, unless, for example, the discovery sanction is death.
However, it looks like Ms. Seidel is in good hands lawyer-wise. Her motion to quash the subpoena (the way that one tries to avoid having to comply) hits a lot of different theories and defenses, including the most important one: that the subpoena won't lead to discoverable evidence.
Postscript of Surprise: The plaintiff's attorney filed the suit in the Eastern District of Virginia, a federal court whose nickname is "The Rocket Docket." The consensus among attorneys is that once you file a case there, you should go ahead and say goodbye to your family for a few months. Rather than let litigation drag out for years, the Rocket Docket judges set -extremely- aggressive discovery schedules. Filing any complaint there is ballsy, no less a thimerosal one, since whether thimerosal causes autism is far from crystal-clear. Long discovery would mean more time for the plaintiff to gather evidence (and for new autism studies to come out).
The only thing that would surprise me is if the court _doesn't_ fine the lawyer that produced that thing. "Abuse of process" barely begins to touch the matter.
that is correct.
we recognize the concept of freedom of expression, subject only to such reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society.
upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
Clifford J. Shoemaker is his name. My father would always use the term "He was a shoemaker" for anyone that f'ed a job up. Hired someone to build something for you and it turned out lopsided? "The contractor was probably a shoemaker" he would say. Not that he had anything against a shoemaker.
There's also the issue that if she can't blame someone else the only obvious alternative is to blame herself. Something few people would willingly face the possibility of doing.
I find it difficult to believe that the parent of an autistic child is to be "blamed." At this stage in the game, no one knows what causes autism so it is too early to asses blame.
This has nothing to do with "a broken tort system". This is just corporate propaganda.
This lawyer is abusing "the court system in general".
Ambulance chasing really has squat to do with it.
A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
Lawyer Bully stomping around intimidating the other kids. Only recourse? Get a bigger lawyer. I hate that about our society. Forget gravity, relativity, etcetera: There are two fundamental forces in the universe: 1) Lawyers 2) Accountants
It is just because the Actions of the lawyer made me a few points more stoopider when I reads abouts them.
Tsukasa: All I really want, is to be left alone...
My God, man, have you no shame? This is Slashdot; you can't quote the National Review here!!
Disclaimer: IANAL
I am the sole proprietor of a number of domain names. All of them are paid for in full by myself, and none of them offer services or goods sold for monetary gain. I don't even collect donations myself, yet my host supports them (offering a means for people to donate directly to the hosting account for purposes of continuing services or upgrading those services.) Point being, were I to own a hypothetical blog in the same position as http://www.neurodiversity.com/ why would donation records need to be subpoenaed in the first place? Should people be in the mind to give to a site they support, shouldn't they be free to do so without having to worry about this? This subpoena seems rather similar to the McCarthy-era Communist witch-hunts in terminology used, such as referring to the turnover of the names of those who have donated.
Also, since when is a blog classed as a taxable entity, and since when are blog owners required to submit tax documents on behalf of their blogs? If this is a necessary thing, it is something I haven't learned during my entire time in the dot-com scene.
Again, IANAL, so tear it up in a respectful manner. I'd like to hear where my shortcomings are.
I mean dupe!
Well, not the article so much as the discussion...We've already discussed vaccinations. This should be about overreaching subpoenas, which in this case goes way too far.
What?
This does put her free speech at risk. That is not necessarily through a process that would order her to stop. Instead, this is a case of harassment and invasion of privacy as a result of her having exercised her free speech rights. It may well be an attempt by Mr. Shoemaker to discourage her from speaking. She, or someone else considering speaking on these matters, may be discouraged from doing so for fear of the costs and invasion of privacy due to such a subpoena.
If Mr. Shoemaker had believed she had information relevant to the case, he could have simply asked for that. Instead, what he is asking for goes beyond what this case is about. We need to have legal procedures that mandate all subpoenas, even for discovery not carried out in the courtroom, be reviewed by the judge for relevance.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
I am going to sue Micro$oft and that will allow me to subpoena CowboyNeal's recored relating to any treatment for sexually transmitted diseases, psychopathology, and substance abuse. Like duh its obvious why his claptastic history would be pertinent.
This is nothing more than sheer harassment disguised as a blatant fishing expedition.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
A medical review board just agreed that Thimerisol, and specific conditions in a young girl were responsible for causing her Autism.
This one case does not prove all instances -- but it opens the door.
In her case she had a mutation in her mitochondria that caused them to have reduced function. They found that the combination, and multiple immunizations, along with the mercury, overburdened her Immune system. So, it may be a combination effect; the low-level mercury poisoning (and I don't call add mercury to anyone by another name), combined with multiple immunizations, can cause Autism.
Now, the connection with the mutated mitochondria does not mean in itself that this is a freak instance, because underperforming mitochondria appear in about 20% of Autistic people.
I find the whole "debunking" thing these days, to highly favor well paid corporations. Bill Frist got lots of money from Eli Lilly, and he dutifully tried to put an immunity clause for them in 5 different bills. Finally, they got their clause into the Patriot Act II. Then we have to look at the lobbyists turned government oversight bureaucrats in the EPA, FDA and CDC -- oh heck, even NASA. They put a man who had an unhealthy liking for underage boys in charge of Child Endangerment. So, unfortunately, what "debunking" in the US could anyone trust?
Tell me the dollar amount donated by lobbyists on any issue, and I'll tell you the results of how this government will act on it.
>>"ad space available -- low rates!!!"
My name is not Kathleen, but check out the I am Kathleen campaign that has resulted from all this.
To me, it sounds as if she is being subpoenaed for being an expert in the field, not for criticizing lawyers - which is perfectly legal and how the US justice system runs.
This is a good example why this procedure needs to be changed to require the approval of a judge before any subpoena can be issued to any outside party.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
Thiomersal is one of those words that is more misspelled (as "thimerosal") than spelled correctly (according to hit counts from a Google Search). Both the blogger and the lawyer in this case have it wrong. More info is at http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/questions/en/ and http://www.who.int/vaccine_safety/topics/thiomersal/en/index.html. Also see http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?artid=516680.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
However, the subpoena is issued by the attorney acting as "an officer of the Court", and the court can enforce it, thereby making it a governmental/Freedom-of-Speech issue.
General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
It would NOT surprise ME if the court did NOT fine the lawyer. Many courts (maybe most) do let lawyers get away with abuse of process like this quite often. We'll have to see how this one turns out.
now we need to go OSS in diesel cars
greed and oppression rears it's ugly head. The arrogance of these lawyers shines through - maybe they can get a second job with the RIAA attack dogs. Where would we be without organizations like the EFF and slashdot for that matter.
Don't kid yourself for one second if you think this lawyer actually cares about his clients or whether he wins this case or not. He stands to make tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars off of this case if he loses, and even more if he wins. Either way, he's a winner. He likely knows he has no chance, but hes going to take this poor family's money nonetheless.
He's going after this blogger, cause she pointed out the fact that he's made big money from unsuspecting families by filing losing cases.
He probably tells the family what they want to hear, "Yeah, I agree that the mercury in the vaccine cause your son's autism. We need to help the children out there by making this public and stop those greedy pharma companies from knowingly poisoning our children..." All the while taking their money and filing a case he knows from the beginning is has no supportive evidence. This greedy lawyer should be disbarred. It is because of him and his kind that our healthcare costs are spiraling out of control.
As the father of a child with autism I have had my share of worries about vaccines. The main vaccine that worries parents is the MMR (measles/mumps/rubella) vaccine. My wife and I had to fight with our doctor to get each vaccine as individually instead of in a combined shot. Parents should be given a choice of how their children are vaccinated as long as they do get the vaccines.
Atheist Mythology??? Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake in 1600 by the Roman Catholic inquisition for espousing Copernican Astronomy.
None of them can see the clouds; The polished wings don't care.
Don't kid yourself for one second if you think this lawyer actually cares about his clients or whether he wins this case or not. He stands to make tens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of dollars off of this case if he loses, and even more if he wins. Either way, he's a winner. He likely knows he has no chance, but hes going to take this poor family's money nonetheless.
Shoemaker's going after this blogger, cause she pointed out the absurdity in his legal claims and the fact that he's made big money from unsuspecting families by filing losing cases.
He probably tells the family what they want to hear, "Yeah, I agree that the mercury in the vaccine cause your son's autism. We need to help the children out there by making this public and stop those greedy pharma companies from knowingly poisoning our children..." All the while taking their money and filing a case he knows from the beginning is has no supportive evidence. This greedy lawyer should be disbarred. It is because of him and his kind that our healthcare costs are spiraling out of control.
Basically, I'd require justification, and assuming that the person/business being subpeonad isn't a defendant, I'd require the requester to pay reasonable costs for the preperation/presentation of the material.
In the case of an individual like this, their hourly wage would be a good start.
In the case of a defendant, costs for this sort of stuff could be decided in the awards phase if the defendant isn't found liable(IE the plaintiff is forced to pay for hassling the defendant).
I don't read AC A human right
An inquiry started a few weeks ago in which he's being accused of failing to disclose that he was being paid by tort lawyers to conduct the study, as well as of conducting invasive procedures that were not in the interests of the patients involved in the study.
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Go to the subpoena. Go to page three, and read the list of names. Some highlights in this legal document: Killer of Sacred Cows; the Misbehavior of Behaviorologist (discussion board), meow meow meow... blah blah blah, and a HYPERLINK written out.
Your ad here. Ask me how!
I'd much rather have a minuscule and totally unproven chance of a few kids getting autism, which is not fatal, than have a virtual certainty of thousands of kids getting fatal and/or permanently disfiguring diseases like pertussis or polio.
So you prefer laws and mandates than liberty? Also there are vaccines available without Thiomersal, mercury.
FalconShould there be a Law?
that cannot be reasonably justified in a free and democratic society
10 PRINT CHR$(205.5+RND(1)); : GOTO 10
Reading between the lines, in issuing the subpoena, Shoemaker seems to be trying to determine whether Seidl is, in fact, being compensated by Bayer to act as an agent for their propaganda.
If she's just an innocent blogger then yeah, this sounds like gigantic invasion of privacy. But if she's really just a shill for Big Pharma...well, then it's a little harder to muster up sympathy.
The fact that many children develop autism symptoms immediately after receiving immunizations is an minor inconvenience to be ignored!
Scumbag lawyers are another issue altogether...
Under the US system anyway, the idea is supposed to be that one is free to express any sentiment at all. In other words one is free to speak one's mind. However attempting to use speech maliciously to cause harm to other people is not tolerated. That seems reasonable.
In theory I could say "[insert name here] should be taken out back and shot" and that is fine, unless I am saying that attempting to get a mob to do just that. In the latter case that is a real problem. Unfortunately, sometimes it is a bit too hard to tell the difference. especially since the exact words said do not always contain all the information needed to determine if something was acceptable. Bob saying something in passing to a friend, and Joe (leader of a cult) saying the exact same thing in an address to the cult members, is a good example. The first case is almost certainly acceptable (there a a few exceptions such as the case that Bob's friend is part of the Mob and is known for acting on offhand comments), but Joe saying the exact same thing could very well be a crime.
Now some hate speech laws are drafted such that they overstep the bounds, and prohibit things that should be acceptable. There are also other such cases where free speech is impinged upon, but it is important to note that the concept of free speech is not truely incompatible with the concepts of some of these laws, but rather with the implementation or interpretation thereof.
Stylish sheet to fix many problems in Slashdot's D3: https://gist.github.com/801524
Is it weird that when I see the words "subpoenaed", "trial", and "lawyers" in a title that I automatically think I'm about to read something involving the RIAA? Not until after finishing the first line did I realize I'd jumped to the wrong conclusion. That, or I isn't reading good.
It's not an obvious reaction - 'something bad happened, I should pour all my hatred of it into someone/something'
The "blame complex" is very much a natural human reaction. When something goes bad people want to blame somebody or something, "God" if nothing else.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Damn f..king lawyers.
The biggest problem with the current system of torts in the US is that the looser doesn't generally have to pay the associated costs of the litigation.
If the blood suckers had to pay when they lost, there would be considerably fewer of these crap cases.
Can anyone remember how John Edwards (darling of the far left) made his millions? Yep, by medical malpractice lawsuits that had no scientific basis whatsoever. Two Americas -- one half lies and the other half pays.
force vs. outlaw You present a false dichotomy, my friend. The obvious and only appropriate policy is vaccines only for those willing to receive them/give them to their children, and private studies at the same time to ensure they are safe and make them more safe.
The lawyer who will defend the subpoenaed blogger is also a "trial lawyer".
This blogger didn't get subpoenaed for criticizing "trial lawyers" as some large bloc, just those who they pointed out were dishonest and abusive of the legal system.
So some lawyer who was intimidated by that took some abusive legal action. Who could possibly be shocked by that?
Headlining this story about "trial lawyers" is some kind of BS attack on people's rights to be represented by lawyers when we're going to trial. Sure, lawyers suck, but "trial lawyers" are not just some monolithic roving gang, beating and scaring people around the countryside. Think about that the next time you need a lawyer to fix your outstanding traffic tickets or something.
--
make install -not war
They let the side effects of Vioxx slip because of testing that didn't go to the prescribed length, but Vioxx was a useful drug. The problem is that Merck advertised Vioxx in such a way that it was used "off label" much more widely than it should have been. It was effective in significantly reducing intense chronic pain for certain things, such that the people that could use it were willing to deal with the side-effect risk because life would have been disabling pain without it.
You hit it right on the head here. So long as a person knows the risks involved they should be able to take any drug they want, there should be no need for any prescription. That includes "street drugs".
FalconShould there be a Law?
Mmmm, I'm skeptical about this one. As a lawyer, why would you do such a thing? You'll make your client and yourself very impopular, anyone could tell that in advance. So, he must have got damn good reasons. My guess is he wants to prove that she gets paid by Bayer (and after reading some articles on her blog, she probably does). I have looked into HPV and the massive lobbying that is going worldwide to install mandatory vaccinations and I have seen how, in this case, Merck, has had blogs put up to promote the idea and has paid bloggers to write about the dangers of HPV and the connection with cancer. So, think twice before crying wolf.
There is no law that that says that the Rx companies can't pay somebody to blog on their behalf. Would it be kind of scummy? Sure. Would it be something you could sue somebody else over? No. Not inherently. Now, it would certainly be possible for her blog to contain legally actionable material, but that is a separate matter.
SirWired
In theory I could say "[insert name here] should be taken out back and shot" and that is fine
There is 1 person in the US that it is not legal to say they should be shot or otherwise killed, the person who sits in the Oval Office. The Secret Service can come down hard on anyone who threatens the president.
Falcon
PS: SS, er Secret Service, I'm not saying the current occupant should be, I'm just pointing out it's illegal to threaten him.Should there be a Law?
or, at least, lying counts as perjury
I was questioned once in a deposition and I was sworn in under oath.
FalconShould there be a Law?
I've not heard about that.
... companies will stop using it. Still, this is an obnoxious abuse by the lawyer, but then we are talking about a litigator here (the bottom feeders of attorneys). Oh no, now I'll get a subpoena!
Now let's think about that for a moment.
Thimerosol = mercury.
Mercury poisoning can be linked to autism and other health side affects. Why would anyone in their right mind want to have a vaccine with thimerosol in it? Oh, because thimerosol is a stable mercury compound. How stable is it? Is there no way to break down the mercury compound chemically? I don't know, I haven't researched it. I simply told my doctor to use an alternative vaccine that doesn't use thimerosol. Since all vaccines that need to be given come in a form without thimerosol, why would anyone choose one with mercury in any form in it? If enough people choose to use vaccines without thimerosol in it, then guess what
Anti-Vaccination Fever: The Shot Hurt Around the World, Sensationalist media, religious fanatics, and alternative medical practitioners fanned the fires created by questionable research to spawn worldwide epidemics of a disease that had almost been forgotten.
"Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the universe." Albert Einstein
Here's my take:
Drugs don't cure autism.
Guns cure autism.
Thanks, I'll be here all week. Try the veal!
No, but seriously, we don't have a cure, and anyone who tells you they can cure X, Y or Z-uncurable life-ruining disease is:
1. lying
2. greedy
3. unprovable
It's simple: pharmaceutical companies make money whether the cure works or not. They make more money if it doesn't work, because healthy people don't buy (prescription) drugs.
If the same corporations only got paid once their treatment had cured the patient, we'd see a whole lot of common diseases cured overnight. Instead of managing sickness, pharmas would focus on efficiency. This will never happen in the U.S.A., not without a violent revolution against hypercapitalism.
The day someone comes forth with a verified and dependable cure for Autism, I will spread the good word myself. Until then, I think it's all bullshit.
-Billco, Fnarg.com
The people who reject vaccines are willfully removing themselves from the gene pool.
Darwin FTW!
Exception that's not actually what happened. DDT wasn't banned in the US until 1972, and yet some developing countries (Sri Lanka is the most widely used example) had already suspended spraying as a Malaria control measure in the 60's, as the mosquitoes had developed resistance to DDT, presumed to be from agricultural spraying. Wikipedia [wikipedia.org] has a reasonable (if short) summary.
There were two other unforeseen consequences of spraying with DDT: " In the 1950s, the World Health Organization (WTO) dropped DDT on the island of Borneo to control mosquitoes, resulting in two unexpected events. First, homes collapsed under the weight of hornets' nests that died and hardened from the DDT; and second, and more troubling, there was an outbreak of bubonic plague because the DDT affected the island's animal nutrient cycle. Small animals (lizards, insects, etc.) became sluggish, while larger animals such as cats ended up with toxic levels of DDT from consumption of smaller creatures. Eventually, all the cats died, leading to an increase in the rat population and an outbreak of bubonic plague. The WTO's solution--which worked--was to airdrop cats to deal with the rat problem, which, in turn, addressed the bubonic plague problem."
FalconShould there be a Law?
And what of unintended consequences of DDT spraying?
"In the 1950s, the World Health Organization (WTO) dropped DDT on the island of Borneo to control mosquitoes, resulting in two unexpected events. First, homes collapsed under the weight of hornets' nests that died and hardened from the DDT; and second, and more troubling, there was an outbreak of bubonic plague because the DDT affected the island's animal nutrient cycle. Small animals (lizards, insects, etc.) became sluggish, while larger animals such as cats ended up with toxic levels of DDT from consumption of smaller creatures. Eventually, all the cats died, leading to an increase in the rat population and an outbreak of bubonic plague. The WTO's solution--which worked--was to airdrop cats to deal with the rat problem, which, in turn, addressed the bubonic plague problem."
Currently there's debate in Africa on whether to spray with DDT or not to spray. There are doctors and scientists who support bans on DDT and those who support the use of DDT.
FalconShould there be a Law?
Amazing how someone can mention DDT spraying in Sri Lanka and yet fail to mention that Sri Lanka resumed spraying but the mosquitoes had developed resistance to DDT
How about mentioning what happened in Borneo:
"In the 1950s, the World Health Organization (WTO) dropped DDT on the island of Borneo to control mosquitoes, resulting in two unexpected events. First, homes collapsed under the weight of hornets' nests that died and hardened from the DDT; and second, and more troubling, there was an outbreak of bubonic plague because the DDT affected the island's animal nutrient cycle. Small animals (lizards, insects, etc.) became sluggish, while larger animals such as cats ended up with toxic levels of DDT from consumption of smaller creatures. Eventually, all the cats died, leading to an increase in the rat population and an outbreak of bubonic plague. The WTO's solution--which worked--was to airdrop cats to deal with the rat problem, which, in turn, addressed the bubonic plague problem."
You know of The Law of Unintended Consequences don't you?
Should there be a Law?
DDT didn't cause the thinning. It's still banned though, because people fear global warming and other such nonsense.
"In the 1950s, the World Health Organization (WTO) dropped DDT on the island of Borneo to control mosquitoes, resulting in two unexpected events. First, homes collapsed under the weight of hornets' nests that died and hardened from the DDT; and second, and more troubling, there was an outbreak of bubonic plague because the DDT affected the island's animal nutrient cycle. Small animals (lizards, insects, etc.) became sluggish, while larger animals such as cats ended up with toxic levels of DDT from consumption of smaller creatures. Eventually, all the cats died, leading to an increase in the rat population and an outbreak of bubonic plague. The WTO's solution--which worked--was to airdrop cats to deal with the rat problem, which, in turn, addressed the bubonic plague problem."
FalconShould there be a Law?
I've often wondered if our increase in finding children with autism might be directly related not to any change in the environment, but in our better understanding of the disease. Could it be that we have always had around the same percentage of autistic children, but these children had been misdiagnosed for centuries as just being 'quiet' or 'slow'?
There was a Taiwanese guy who drank several kilos of mercury and not only lived, but showed surprisingly mild symptoms. (Lin JL, Lim PS. 1993. Massive oral ingestion of elemental mercury. J Toxicol Clin Toxicol 31
(3):487-492.)
The interesting part is the total quantity he drank was determined by--uhhhhh--observation of the tail-end processes. They even tracked its progress through his intestine with x-rays. Now, I've had GI problems of a dozen underdeveloped countries' drinking water, but I'll be damned if I can even guess what it's like to feel the T-1000 passing through your sphincter.
(Please excuse me while I register a few domain names...)
Google for autism and vaccines large scale studies for all the information you might want. Face it, from a scientific perspective this issue is dead. You might as well argue that evolution is just a theory or global warming is an artifact of the sun getting brighter.
There is no reason to suspect that vaccines cause autism. To put this in perspective, the case for the claim that eating solid foods causes autism is susceptible children (which I just made up) is actually stronger than the case for the vaccine-autism link. Likewise the plastic toy link and the living indoors link.
--MarkusQ
That's scary and abusive.
It costs here a huge amount of money and time to comply, all because some jerkoff lawyer didn't like something she said.
My blog: http://www.seebs.net/log/ --- My iPhone/iPad app: http://www.seebs.net/seebsfrac/
Considering we've got the lawyer's phone number, who votes for slashdotting his office line?
How did it come about? Three of the cases are from the same day care facility. The zero index patient was a child that did not have their measles vaccination. The other two were too young for the vaccination. The fourth is an adult and can be considered an outlier.
I surely hope that the parents of the zero index patient are sued to heck and gone for willful negligence and anything else they can make stick.
Sad thing is there isn't a cure.
I have little to no sympathy with Seidel. Thiomerisol, a mercury(!) compound, deals enormous damage
to a child's (and an adult's) brain. Basically it boils down to a needle full of lobotomy.
If she is defending Thiomerisol then either she hasn't done her homework or knowing the facts
she is on their payroll.
Actually you just jerked off, right on my screen. Thanks. You didn't
read the article and give thought to why she is having her financial
data subpoenaed. Hint: She might well be a pharma shill.
This would be a major win for all of us if someone like that got
exposed. A lot of opinion engineering is done by pharma through
channels like an obviously pro-vaccination webpage / blog like
the one Seidel operates.
I personally feel sick that mercury is injected into the bloodstream of little babies.
So studies showed that this is a safe practice? Isn't this outrageous to read? And who sponsored these studies? My guess is that big pharm industry is very afraid of lawsuits. Of course it does not want to pay a compensation to autistic children.
Do you expect to have a baby? Write a letter to your congressional representative to remove all toxic metals from vaccines. Do it NOW. Otherwise your child may be next to suffer.
You MONSTER!!
=P
I...I'm attacking the darkness!
Like for example, if I drop a stone 1 meter above sea level, just outside a beach in plain air, I am 100% sure it will drop down. You won't hear anybody saying "gosh those scientist are speaking in absolute".
In the case of thiomersal, it was studied, and found no link whatsoever. Furthermore, if I am not wrong, it is taken out of many vaccine in the US (except Flu I think).
From wiki : n the U.S., the European Union, and a few other affluent countries, the compound is being phased out from vaccines routinely given to children.[1] Packaging the vaccines in single-dose vials eliminates the need for bacteriostatics such as thiomersal.[2]
Granted, I can only remember my first vaccination when I was roughly in the lowest school class (5-6 years old or maybe 8 who knows my memory start to betray me....) but I remember that we had to go to a pharmacy, get some vaccine in a box, go back to the doctor and get it injected. I don't EVER remmember getting vaccination from anything BUT a single dose vial !
The point I want to say about this, is that even in the palce where thiomersal is not used anymore, autism stay at the same rate ! Unless you come up with a convoluted hypothese where the new process has the same negative effect, to me the combination of those studies AND the non effect after withdrawal of the product, certainly hint that scientist can be 100% sure in this case too !
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
It was not because of the thiomersal that the mother of with the autist daughter was awarded, but because the daughter had a rare form of mytochondrial disease, and the subsequent treatment and vaccine given to her worsened her condition. NOTHING to do with thiomersal per see. It pays to read the judgment before accusing other of not being informative.
Furthermore after 2001 , NO REDUCTION in autism was observed despite lessened to null use of thiomersal. And study were made it has no autism impact. How many more evidence you need ? Finally you are omitting a very important fact from your "ethyl mercury is toxic" meme. 1) how long does it take to metabolise from thiomersal to ethyl mercury 2) how does it relate to ethyl mercury half life in the body 3) how does it relate to the minimal quantity of thiomersal in vaccine ? 4) how is the quantity of ethyl mercury due to vaccine at ANY time in comparison to the dosis at which it starts affecting the body (and yes there are quantity which are perfectly tolerable, and even quantity of Eth-Hg which can be totally ignored). and more importantly 5) how does it relate to parents saying that within 24 hours their kids got autism !!!!
C. Sagan : A demon haunted world:
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0345409469/
visit randi.org
It's a long article, but worth a read, IMHO, because it links in a very diverse sample of opinions on the topic of chemical/environmental links to autism. (mercury in particular)
Of interest to me are these anecdotes (direct quotes from the article):
Thought-provoking to say the least. Makes me wonder if there may be a complex genetic propensity that causes only some children to develop autism in response to mercury.
Imagination is more important than knowledge -Einstien
"Screw you and the horse you rode in on.
Sincerely,
Katherine Seidel"
Feel free to use this, Katherine.
Toad-san
Many people are so spooked by apostrophes that a word like "they're" seems to them as if it might mean almost anything. In fact, it's always a contraction of "they are." If you've written "they're," ask yourself whether you can substitute "they are." If not, you've made a mistake. "Their" is a possessive pronoun like "her" or "our" "They eat their hotdogs with sauerkraut." Everything else is "there." "There goes the ball, out of the park! See it? Right there! There aren't very many home runs like that." "Thier" is a common misspelling, but you can avoid it by remembering that "they" and "their" begin with the same three letters. Another hint: "there" has "here" buried inside it to remind you it refers to place, while "their" has "heir" buried in it to remind you that it has to do with possession.
http://www.wsu.edu/~brians/errors/their.html
Speaking as someone who researched this topic for a number of weeks (my son is four months now and had some of the vaccinations done) there is a huge conflict of interest between an individual, and the rest (government, CDC, Pharmaceutical industry, Health insurances). And, it all comes down to economics of scale:
An epidemic would cost government and health insurances a lot of money as it disrupts businesses and communities. Also, vaccines cost a lot to develop, produce, store and defend in court so concessions (use thimerosol because it's cheap) and guarantees have to be made by CDC, AARP for the vaccine industry to prosper. All of the above is at the cost to the individual.
It is important to remember that vacciness are not 100% safe as they might be contaminated or poorly made (polio infections due to vaccinations) and they do include aluminum, antibiotics and thimerosol (one of the reasons not to do many vaccines at one time, IMHO). Vaccines are also not as effective as some think - recent flu and rubella epidemics come to mind.
On the other hand imagine your son having potential to be someone yet you give into fear and he dies from preventable childhood disease. Einsteins son died of tetanus, for example.
I'm happy with the things are right now. I still have a right to refuse vaccines, check for expiration dates, read the fine print. However, the way things are heading those rights will go away the moment we start to require everyone to have health insurance (more concessions - of our rights - to make things cheaper)
I'm still voting for Hussein Obama...
I'd tell the lawyer to go fuck himself. I'd refuse to give him jack shit! And I wouldn't even show up for a deposition. I'd tell the lawyer he is risking his livelyhood if he continues.
I did this with a scumbag who rearended me in an accident then tried to sue me. I told his lawyer to go fuck himself. I told the lawyer if he persisted he wouldn't have a practice left to run and told him to tell his "client" that if he persisted his life would relly suck. They started to press me on it, so some things happend where his client's life started to REALLY suck. The client wanted to drop the lawsuit but the lawyer convinced him to continue. So I started to make the lawyers practice suffer. It took 6 months but I never had to hire a lawyer and the two scumbags walked away from the whole thing. You just have to have the balls to fight dirty - they are...
The Truth is a Virus!!!
The poster was not informative. There was no information, just accusation. There is a difference. You have provided information, (albeit, in the form of half-baked and misleading questions), so you might be considered informative after a fashion, (a fashion which the moderators today appear to be willing to reward. Sigh.) But the parent poster offered nothing. I don't really know how to make this any more clear. The fact that so many don't grasp this is a clear illustration of why the world is so screwed up. But I digress. . .
Furthermore after 2001 , NO REDUCTION in autism was observed despite lessened to null use of thiomersal. And study were made it has no autism impact. How many more evidence you need ?
First of all, you're not offering evidence. You're just spouting. Attempts to offer evidence in a post often includes little words with lines underneath them. Look into it. Secondly, you're making the assumption that I think Thiomersal causes autism. I don't recall saying that. Indeed, I am not convinced that there is a correlation, and I do find the OH NO contingent to often be claiming more than is evident. However, this does not mean that swinging just as far in the opposite direction is the right answer. It's not. It's foolish and predictable and just as hysterical as those you are complaining about. Why can't people get a grip on this? Is it really so easy to corral people into such predictable behavior patterns? The world is never going to survive if people don't figure out this really, really basic stuff.
Finally you are omitting a very important fact from your "ethyl mercury is toxic" meme.
Case in point; Ethyl Mercury being toxic is not a "meme". Ethyl Mercury IS toxic. Type, "Ethyl Mercury MSDS" into a Google search bar to read what every university and private company on the planet with a chemistry department dealing with Ethyl Mercury has to say about it.
1) how long does it take to metabolise from thiomersal to ethyl mercury 2) how does it relate to ethyl mercury half life in the body 3) how does it relate to the minimal quantity of thiomersal in vaccine ? 4) how is the quantity of ethyl mercury due to vaccine at ANY time in comparison to the dosis at which it starts affecting the body (and yes there are quantity which are perfectly tolerable, and even quantity of Eth-Hg which can be totally ignored).
More Google for you. --You will find that the claims are not unified on these subjects, that by and large there has not been enough testing to determine conclusively the level of toxicity experienced by the subject. That being said, however, I did find from all the various articles, and you will find this as well upon review, that there IS absolute agreement that Ethyl Mercury, a known poison, IS released in some quantity into the body after a Thiomersal injection.
and more importantly 5) how does it relate to parents saying that within 24 hours their kids got autism !!!!
Not that it really matters since such a claim would probably just be more hysteria, but has anybody actually said that? Source please. --And fewer exclamation points if you can manage it.
This is what I have determined thus far: 1. Thiomersal is a product brought to us by an industry known for sickening and even killing people with improperly tested drugs and then telling lies about it after the fact. 2. Thiomersal is an effective, mercury-based poison; this is why it is used as a preservative.
Upon the finer points of quantity of poison and the length of time before the body expunges it, there remains debate. With this information we can proceed in one of two things:
1. We can trust an industry which has proven countless times to be untrustworthy and march into the doctor's office and roll up our sleeve while quivering with a variety of emotionally-driven verve which is almost indistinguishable from the nati
i think the anti-smoking people would be quite content if the laws are to make people smoke only in their premises, and only when no other people are present. this will stop MOST incident of smoking...
Only an outright ban on smoking will satisfy some anti-smoking advocates, some want to ban smoking even in private residences. All these bans do is turn otherwise law abiding people into criminals. And the US already has the highest prison population, per capita at least. Yet how many of these people also oppose vehicles? Not many I bet, yet the exhaust from vehicles is much worse than cigarette smoke.
FalconShould there be a Law?
No, you're putting off to the end what needs to happen earlier in the process. Two issues:
- in this case, it appears the subpeona was issued by the plaintiff's lawyer, but never reviewed by a judge. They need to be reviewed by the judge, not just blanket issued. Normal procedure these days is to issue the subpeona, like this, and if someone doesn't like it, they can bitch.
- your proposal puts off sanctions until after the whole trial is over. Pain for misconduct like this needs to occur much, MUCH earlier.
The justice system here doesnt work well.
yet, when i see the extent that the justice system in us can be exploited for foul means, even i get appalled.
Read radical news here
well the days where there are so much CO and particulates from the cars are well, almost, over nowadays at least for my city
And how about Shanghai or Beijing? What of the new cities in the desert in the west? There's talk the athletes may need to wear masks during the Olympics.
I live in Hong Kong
How do you like it? I wanted to go not to just Hong Kong but China. Years ago I was taking a class in Mandarin, well spoken. For writing we used both the Chinese ideograms and Pin Yin romanization.
FalconShould there be a Law?
They need to be reviewed by the judge, not just blanket issued. Normal procedure
Thus, the 'they need justification' deal.
ur proposal puts off sanctions until after the whole trial is over. Pain for misconduct like this needs to occur much, MUCH earlier.
For stuff they request from the defendant. Who's presumably involved and has lawyers of their own to control this stuff.
For parties that aren't directly involved in the case(IE they aren't suing or being sued), standard billing practices apply. COD makes sense to me.
I don't read AC A human right
OK, IANAL, but from what I understood, production of third party documents can be ordered but only after a judge assesses arguments about the relevance.
From what I read from the responses (the few that are on-topic - eyeroll), this has not happened. And from reading the article, the blogger has filed a counter-motion to quash, (and, I would hope file a further motion for costs arising from improper conduct).
So, how does this all work in the US - can a lawyer really just demand any third party documents and judicial review only occurs if the third-party complains???
And what sanctions, if any, could be imposed for such an obviously frivolous request???
Yup, and that calculus becomes less effective ever time someone makes it, like the villager who wants to "cheat" the commons by sneaking in one more cow than he's allowed to. You end up needing to perform a differential or difference equation to do the risk assessment, and that is about the level of mathematics where human instinct and intuition stop working very well, in general.
All's true that is mistrusted
It's really important that everybody else's kids get vaccinated for the major communicable diseases, because that radically reduces the risk of your kids getting those diseases. But once that's happened, you've got the moral and practical dilemma of how risky it is to your kids and other people's kids to skip vaccination - it's usually not too risky, unless lots of other people do it, at which point it's risky again. Measles seems to reach that stage occasionally.
There are a couple of special cases - tetanus and flu. Tetanus isn't something where vaccinating other kids will protect yours; it's driven by how often kids run into rusty nails and other puncture wounds. And of course flu vaccines are a guess every year - but having the flu sucks enough that I usually get the vaccine.
Bill Stewart
New Fast-Compression-only CPR http://preview.tinyurl.com/dy575ks
I'm really late to reply to this and I doubt it's going to make a difference, but if you're going to copy and paste this story a million times, at least go to the trouble of making sure it's correct. WTO is the World Trade Organization. The World Health Organization is WHO.
I didn't spell it myself, I put it in quotes because I copied and pasted it.
FalconShould there be a Law?
"The government needs to have the ability to restrict harmful material from entering the country, whether that be weapons used by terrorists, dangerous narcotics or child pornography."
I think the key point this mentally challenged judge is missing is that these powers were given to them to protect national security. When something is potential threat to national security is when a search is justified. Information itself is not a threat to national security, in any form. What's next? Saying that documents criticizing the government are dangerous and could incite revolt?
If this ruling stands, we have truly sunk to a new low in our history.