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Do the Blind Deserve More Effort on the Web?

dratcw writes "An article was posted this week to ComputerWorld, detailing the frustrations faced by blind people struggling to use the Web. The piece shows how little progress has been made and the inadequacy of solutions such as Microsoft's Narrator screen reader. While the article generated many positive comments, one reader said the disabled should 'get a grip' and maintained they 'have no more right to demand that others provide for their needs than I, as a diabetic, have a right to demand that sugar no longer be used.' Should Web sites and software makers do more, or does the reality of today's economics dictate that the blind/disabled will continue to struggle and learn to live with it?"

90 of 663 comments (clear)

  1. Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by seanadams.com · · Score: 5, Insightful

    If we work on the broader problem then we get better web sites for everyone, especially the disabled, without even making any particular effort for them. For example:

    - A link to download a file should just go to the file, not some clever javascript crap that tells you to please wait while you're redirected, your download should start in a few moments etc.

    - Quit breaking stuff up into dozens of tiny bite sized pages. My scrollbar works just fine thank you very much, and it lets me scan all of the content in an instant instead of having to click through it all. Yes, I know that some people do this to goose their ad revenue, but you see it other places too.

    - Don't use clever little graphics and pop-ups for every link, text works much better.

    - I don't need links to "print this page" or "email it to a friend".

    - You don't need to know what region of the world I'm in before I can download a damned printer driver.

    - Don't use ridiculous URLs that query stuff from a CGI with a zillion arguments just to serve up a static page.

    I could go on all day... fixing any of those design problems would automatically improve accessibility, not just for blind users but for mobile devices as well.

    Thankfully we've mostly gotten rid of the horrible "splash pages", flash animations, and musical home pages. I'm sure in due time people will get their head around some of the other basic issues I've mentioned, but unfortunately people keep coming up with dumb new ideas much faster than that.

    1. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by shrikel · · Score: 5, Funny

      Thankfully we've mostly gotten rid of the horrible ... musical home pages.
      Are you kidding? Those at least can be enjoyed by blind and seeing people alike!
      --
      Any sufficiently simple magic can be passed off as mere advanced technology.
    2. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Unfortunately, though, more and more companies are making their pages entirely flash based. I think that's a far more of an egregious problem than the stuff you mention. Why the fuck I need to waste my time loading fucking flash movies to navigate a page when it works better in plain HTML is beyond me.

    3. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by arakon · · Score: 4, Informative

      "Thankfully we've mostly gotten rid of the horrible "splash pages", flash animations, and musical home pages. I'm sure in due time people will get their head around some of the other basic issues I've mentioned, but unfortunately people keep coming up with dumb new ideas much faster than that."

      You've never seen MySpace have you?

      Most of the topics you've covered are that way because someone decided it was a better way to get another opportunity to serve you a targeted advertisement. The download links are that way to prevent other people from stealing your content, denying you ad revenue and leeching your bandwidth... It all comes back to money and some content providers heavily rely on ad revenue to pay their monthly hosting and bandwidth costs.

      Others are just greedy.

      When bandwidth becomes free, maybe you'll see the reverse to these trends. Maybe. Probably not.

      --
      "If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
    4. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by RobertB-DC · · Score: 4, Insightful

      In addition to the many problems cited by the parent, I'd like to point out that anything that doesn't work in a cross-browser environment is a problem.

      Saying "This site is designed for Internet Explorer only" is like putting up a sign outside the Wal-Mart parking lot saying "This lot is designed for GM vehicles only". You'll still get plenty of visitors, but is there some good reason for keeping people (and their money) out of your business?

      My company is about to move a PC-based system to the Web, and I'm going to be poking around as much as possible to get rid of IE-specific pitfalls. I may not have much luck, though... it's a vertical market app for an environment where "Nobody got fired for buying IBM^WMicrosoft" is very much in effect.

      --
      Stressed? Me? Of course not. Stress is what a rubber band feels before it breaks, silly.
    5. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm rewriting my (presently not so good) website from scratch so I can learn more about CSS and W3C-compliant HTML. I'm coding to standards. Style separate from content.

      I notice the standards-compliant code I'm creating is accessible pretty much by default. If I pay proper attention to design (minimalist, easy to navigate) and not add features just because I think they look swell, the final design will be far more accessible than my present one.

      It will be much leaner and easier to update as well. I am adding a content management system. Updates will be easier, and I will test the results using common screen readers.

    6. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Aquaseafoam · · Score: 5, Funny

      I find it highly insensitive that you have overlooked the deaf community. Surely they also wish to enjoy such magnificent web pages.

      --
      09-F9-11-02-9D-74-E3-5B-D8-41-56-C5-63-56-88-C0
    7. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by smooth+wombat · · Score: 4, Interesting
      more and more companies are making their pages entirely flash based.


      Ding! See what Janus recently did to their front page. Because it uses Flash, not only can't the blind get to their accounts, but they have now forced people to use an insecure interface to access their account. Brilliant!

      The same applies for those links you see. Click on 'Institutional Cash'. See what happens?

      This is why, Flash must die!

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    8. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 4, Funny

      I once worked for a web design company (back when image maps were generally server-side supported, not client-side) that had truly bad design choices. One for a page that used a server-side image map, they tried to include text links at the bottom of the page so that the links could still be followed by search engines. Except they couldn't get the text to position itself precisely on enough clients that it wouldn't break their (NetObjects Fusion) layout table... so they turned the text links into an image of text links and made it another server-side image map.

      This was when the boss angrily declared, "I am not an idiot!" when I tried to point out the problem to him.

      The last thing I ever did for that company was finally give them something they really wanted: a frameset that constrained the usable real-estate on a page to be no more than 640x480. They then converted their own website to use that frameset and quickly went out of business.

      The parent company though still publishes a free, local, ad-supported business magazine. Their website even as an "Accessibility Statement" page.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    9. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Moridineas · · Score: 2, Insightful

      - I don't need links to "print this page" or "email it to a friend". I strongly disagree! Very frequently the "print this page" link remedies many of the problems you listed--gets rid of ads, all on one page, gets rid of navigation cruft, etc.

      Also useful if you want to like, print the page ;-)

      The other day an artiest friend of a friend heard I did some web programming and then equated that with web design. He said he was getting into web design too--he's been learning flash and might eventually get around to HTML. It made me sad.
    10. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by crovira · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Ugh... One person's musical web page is another's noise (and its specially galling when people have multiple videos on their web pages that all play simultaneously. PUKE!)

      As for the usability issues, they are indeed a "shitty web design" problem.

      Program for events and NOT for triggers and your interface can be adaptive.

      Most web (2.0 or not) stuff is coded like it was thought up by a twelve-year old and QAed by a thirteen year old.

      Kids too ignorant to ever be let loose near firearms.

      But instead there put in charge of things and pout when people complain that they didn't think of ... (the list is endless.)

      --
      MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.
    11. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I strongly disagree! Very frequently the "print this page" link remedies many of the problems you listed--gets rid of ads, all on one page, gets rid of navigation cruft, etc. A properly crafted site intended to have a printing option has a stylesheet that has @media print rules for restyling the page for printing, automatically removing that cruft.
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    12. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by denis-The-menace · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What we need is a ACID-like test for web sites:
      -Do all relevant pictures have AltText field used and valid.
      -"How annoying is navigating the site" Index
      -etc

      --
      Obama's legacy: (N)othing (S)ecure (A)nywhere and (T)error (S)imulation (A)dministration
    13. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Androclese · · Score: 3, Funny

      Are you kidding? Those at least can be enjoyed by blind and seeing people alike!
      Are you kidding? Those at least can be suffered by blind and seeing people alike!

      There... I fixed it for ya...
    14. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by DAtkins · · Score: 3, Funny

      Yes. Yes, yes, yes.

      Rather than having html that uses an image link, use an href and swap the link out for an image using CSS. It's easy to do, and makes navigation MUCH simpler to implement and use.

      If you open your page in Lynx (or disable CSS) and cannot decipher it, then it will not work for the blind. Frankly, it also makes me hate the designer. I will refrain from making comments about what Slashdot looks like with CSS turned off :-)

    15. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by piojo · · Score: 5, Funny

      I find it highly insensitive that you have overlooked the deaf community. Surely they also wish to enjoy such magnificent web pages. So you're saying that when I add the soundtrack to my home page, I should have the musical notes going by in a flash animation?
      --
      A cat can't teach a dog to bark.
    16. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by dvice_null · · Score: 3, Interesting

      You forgot that
      - People use different versions of Flash.
      - People have different resolutions. Normal font can be very tiny on some screens.
      - Some people don't have Flash at all.

      So there goes your control.

    17. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by UncleTogie · · Score: 4, Funny

      So you're saying that when I add the soundtrack to my home page, I should have the musical notes going by in a flash animation?

      Speaking as a guy that's 70% deaf:

      F'r the love o' Pete, NO!

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    18. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Tyr_7BE · · Score: 2

      "You've never seen MySpace have you?"

      I don't think we should be taking MySpace as an example to be followed. In any respect whatsoever.

    19. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by RollingThunder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Oh, I know that, but the suits either don't know it, or ignore it, and feel that they've got the control. That's all they need to decide to use flash instead of something with broader support.

    20. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Xiph1980 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Sometimes when you browse in the off corners of the web, you find wonderful examples of how to entertain those, that are (perhaps not by choice) totally reliant on their eyes...
      I want to share one of those I found a while ago:
      Jones Partners: Architecture
      WARNING!! MAY CAUSE SEISURES, HEADACHES, NAUSEA, BLEEDING AND/OR EXPLODING EYES

      Disclaimer: Following the link is voluntary. I am not morally, financially, or in any other way responsible for the wellbeing of those following the link in this post. You have been warned. Good luck.

      --
      Manuals are your last resort only
    21. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Until recently, IE enjoyed 90%+ market share"
      So, you want me to take 10% off the top of your companies profits, and you won't complain?

      "Over the past 2 years or so, firefox and safari... makes good business sense to accommodate them."
      Repeat above question, and add caveat: "accommodating" them doesn't take any more time or effort than designing for IE alone. That's why w3c, 508, etc. exists.

    22. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by What+Would+NPH+Do · · Score: 2, Insightful

      provided they are once again designed properly according to w3 standards. And we make a full circle back to the root of almost all of these accessibility problems. The developers either can't code to standards or are too fucking lazy to do so.
    23. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by Actually,+I+do+RTFA · · Score: 2

      This is quite possibly one of my biggest irritations with the web. The page never changes, ever. There is no need to build it on the fly.

      Why do you care? Because the address bar is long, or it takes a negligable amount of time to build the page?

      --
      Your ad here. Ask me how!
    24. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by longLiveTheShell · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Those anoying videos and songs are the reason as a blind computer user I refuse to use myspace, there's nothing more anoying then trying to view someones page and having mili sirus pop up drownding out your speach software.

    25. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by JohnVanVliet · · Score: 2, Funny

      man 2008 became 1968 , for a moment i thought i was 5 mo. old again

      --
      "I don't pitch OpenSUSE Linux to my friends, i let Microsoft do it for me
    26. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by hobo+sapiens · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Cowboy hat and a kimono...that's actually a good analogy. IE is wearing a the cowboy hat and a kimono...one on each foot. As someone who codes everything according to web standards, I can tell you that IE is the one that doesn't adhere to standards. Coding to artificial standards (as in..."Hey, it works in IE!" is just plain dumb.

      I have found from years of experience that only hacks make claims about cross browser coding taking longer and not being cost effective. It doesn't take long to code properly. It takes longer to *learn* how to code properly. But aren't we professionals here? Shouldn't we learn and do things the right way? I say yes, and not only for the admittedly academic reason of doing it right. Coding to standards reduces maintenance costs and saves bandwidth. It ensures forward compatibility, to a reasonable degree. And it makes your content semantic.

      When you code to standards, and have the experience to know what won't work in IE without hacks, you can code sites that work in all standards compliant browsers + IE. That's just about every traditional browser. And if you do it a certain way, that's even text-only browsers like lynx or links.

      --
      blah blah blah
    27. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Informative

      A @media print stylesheet won't consolidate a multi-page article into one page. It can when the page actually does contain the whole article but only displays a section of it to @media screen.

      Also, a stylesheet won't give the user a preview of what the printed version will look like Isn't that what Print Preview is for?

      or the choice to print the page with all the cruft. It's the author's choice what to display in print by default. The end user has the option of client-side stylesheet use. (Browsers should offer more power to the user in this area, such as completely disregarding the page's stylesheet(s).)

      And there are @media types addressing the topic as well. Pardon the appearance; I'm having to compensate for a lack of style for definition lists under Slashdot's stylesheet:

      Media Type Description all Used for all media type devices aural Used for speech and sound synthesizers braille Used for braille tactile feedback devices embossed Used for paged braille printers handheld Used for small or handheld devices print Used for printers projection Used for projected presentations, like slides screen Used for computer screens tty Used for media using a fixed-pitch character grid, like teletypes and terminals tv Used for television-type devices
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    28. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by lawn.ninja · · Score: 4, Funny

      That website made me want to kill someone. Just sayin'

    29. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by innerweb · · Score: 3, Funny

      Well, I finally found a use for psychoactive drugs. OMG. What were they thinking when they made that site? And more importantly, why is it still up? Ack!

      InnerWeb

      --
      Freud might say that Intelligent Design is religion's ID.
    30. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by kesuki · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "When bandwidth becomes free"

      Bandwidth will never be free, someone has to pay for all the giant undersea optical cables that make the 'internet' global, someone has to pay for all those buried fiber optic cables connecting cities, someone has to pay every time they're broken by a backhoe.

      all the equipment takes a lot of energy, and the price of energy is going up, the cost of glass production may be going down due to the volumes we use to insulate homes, make windows (the kind in your home), make dishes etc, package food and goods in, the deoxygenated kind for printing silicon wafers, and making solar panels... and because of glass recycling becoming more prevalent.

      but still, everything has a price, bandwidth is going down in price, because we went from shipping 'analog voices' over copper backbones to sending data over optic networks, and the technology for optics keeps getting better every year, eventually because the price of glass is so cheap, and they're now able to use other materials to make optic lines flexible, bandwidth will continue to drop in price, as the availability goes up, and we replace copper networks with all optic networks..

      but still at the end of the day someone has to pay for all the overhead, so bandwidth will never be free. the dropping prices are related to improving technology, and there is still a lot more that can be done to improve, so prices can go even lower, and even more bandwidth can be sold. Even so, bandwidth will never be free.

    31. Re:Shitty web design is not a "blind" problem by sumdumass · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Most music on the background sites that I know of, had the music added because they can. I know a few people who where making novice web pages a while back who felt that it was a sense of accomplishment or achievement when they got music to load in the back ground. I think this is why it is so popular on the myspace pages and stuff.

      I attempted to prove a point and duct taped a Walkman to an old phone extention and stated turning it on low enough to hear Queen in the background when he would call. He finally got pissed and asked why I was doing it and I told him because every time I visited his site, the same music started automatically playing and I thought he would like it. The music on the site was gone in about 2 days and when it came back, it had one of those flash player buttons where you could start and stop it but you had to start the music first.

      I don't think they realize how annoying the stuff is because they are more or less fascinated that they could get it working that way.

  2. Do the Blind Deserve More Effort on the Web? by Jswalden86 · · Score: 5, Funny

    I can't see why not.

    1. Re:Do the Blind Deserve More Effort on the Web? by Bryansix · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are you blind too?

  3. Alt Tags for Images by Bryansix · · Score: 4, Insightful

    The biggest thing web designers do that breaks the web for disabled people is not include the alt tag in an image. I mean how hard is that?

    1. Re:Alt Tags for Images by elecmahm · · Score: 5, Informative

      I disagree -- and if you've ever used a screen reader you'd understand how nearsighted (no pun intended) that comment is.

      1. = Alt tags, yes. But also:
      2. = Long desc on images that are content-heavy or pertinent to the content
      3. = Using a proper hierarchy of header tags (H1/2/3/4/5)
      4. = Using lists (UL, OL, DL, etc.) properly
      5. = Placing the content BEFORE the navigation, or at least providing an internally linked "skipnav" link (use CSS to hide it)
      6. = using title properties on links
      7. = Creating non-flash versions of key items
      8. = Using Javascript as an additional convenience, but not a key element. (I *still* see sites that use window.href onclick events instead of just using an "A" tag.)

      That's just the beginning. Not using alt tags doesn't "break the web" for screen readers, it's just less helpful. But not using semantically accurate tags can make it nearly impossible to read or navigate a page. The screen reader JAWS (what I was trained on) can jump through a page by header tags, so having a proper hierarchy is crucial to them being able to quickly locate the information they need.

      If your site breaks with all plugins, javascript, and CSS turned off, then blind people will effectively NOT be able to use it.

  4. My philosophy by Erich · · Score: 4, Insightful
    In my opinion, making everyone change their ways for a few who have an issue isn't ethical, whether it's forcing people to change their web page to make it more friendly to the disabled, or not letting peanut butter sandwiches in elementary schools.

    On the other hand, people should know that if their web page is not available to a group of people, then those people will not get the benefit of the web page. In addition, there is a market for folks to create (and sell, if they so choose) products that help people who have problems get around in society. Thus, wheelchairs and hearing aids and braille and such. It's always been this way.

    To say that everyone must be included in the class of users makes no sense; do you have to make music accessible to the deaf, or visual art available to the blind? Of course not. Should you have to change your personal web page that you use to post pictures for your friends and family to make it more friendly to some disabled user you don't know? Of course not.

    --

    -- Erich

    Slashdot reader since 1997

    1. Re:My philosophy by Devin+Jeanpierre · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The question wasn't whether it was ethical to force people to design web pages that way, but whether it was ethical to design web pages that way, nothing more. You answered a question nobody asked.

      --
      -Devin Jeanpierre
    2. Re:My philosophy by CyberData4 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Stop being a drama queen. I have peanut butter allergies too. I just don't eat the shit. Problem solved.

    3. Re:My philosophy by sakdoctor · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think this can be generalised as

      Individualist: We are all different but should be treated equally under the law.
      Collectivist: "Something must be done" to correct a tragically imperfect world.

      The collectivist approach has the propensity to piss me off, because of course it results in more and more obscure laws.
      If your on-line shop is unfriendly to screen readers you will likely lose blind customers. I think that this is punishment, and motivation enough.

    4. Re:My philosophy by pla · · Score: 2, Interesting

      YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING SPECIAL TO MAKE THE WEBSITE EASIER TO USE FOR THE BLIND Just stop using those damned javacrap shit unnecessarily

      The first post, as does your own, nicely glossed over the fact that all of those points count as "doing something".

      Why script a link? Because I want to break wget. Because where it goes might change in response to something else on the page. Because the next page heavily depends on JSt and I can use JS links to filter out those with noncompliant browsers. Because I can. Why not?

      As long as a page remains compliant to its declared doctype, not using a given feature very much amounts to handicapping the author in favor of the reader.

    5. Re:My philosophy by Utini420 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I was going to post something about how mad it made me as a kid when I was told I couldn't take peanut butter sandwiches to school, the ONLY thing my mother could put in a sack that I would eat. Seriously, I know I'm being picky, but how is someone else's allergy my problem? I've rewritten this twice to make it less offensive, but isn't there something (no matter how inconvenient, the problem is on your end after all) that you or your daughter could to to shield her from the peanut particles? It isn't like anyone is force feeding her peanuts -- is there anything short of a hazmat suit, or just staying at home, that would keep her from dieing without infringing on anyone else?

      --
      A little inaccuracy sometimes saves tons of explanation.
    6. Re:My philosophy by Icarium · · Score: 2

      If someone is that allergic, wear a damn mask. Was that so hard to think of?

    7. Re:My philosophy by goofballs · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Two things. One - peanut allergies kill. If you have peanut allergies, you can die from it, from just a touch or breathing the tiny particles in the air from a cough or sneeze. Does it make sense to ban peanut butter sandwiches if you have someone allergic to peanuts? Since I have a daughter with severe peanut allergies, I do think so, since I prefer not to have her die a painful death. dude, if your kid's really that sensitive that she's going to pop off from breathing in tiny particles in the air from a cough or sneeze, i hate to break it to yeah, your daughter is a goner anyways (if you're ever going to allow her to live anything like a normal, meaningful life). you may be able to get a school to ban peanut butter, or a plane to not serve peanuts, but you can't prevent her from bumping into people out and about. get her an epi pen, or homeschool her, but quit with the idea that you can tell everyone else NOT to go about normally so YOU can.

      Second thing - go read the first post. YOU DON'T HAVE TO DO ANYTHING SPECIAL TO MAKE THE WEBSITE EASIER TO USE FOR THE BLIND Just stop using those damned javacrap shit unnecessarily. Why should links be javascripted?! so what you're REALLY saying is, "you don't have to do anything special...other than these things i just said to do / not do".
    8. Re:My philosophy by chihowa · · Score: 2, Insightful

      People with severe peanut allergies can go into shock from the smell of peanuts on your breath. Hard to avoid, isn't it. Then they should either:

      • Live in a bubble
      • wear a mask or respirator

      The problem lies with them, not everybody else. Why should I be denied peanuts because somebody else can't handle them?

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    9. Re:My philosophy by soliptic · · Score: 3, Informative

      But you still miss the whole point of the web standards Right Way. Which is that, although it almost always takes a bit more effort, it's almost always possible to have your cake and eat it. Progressive Enhancement.

      Your case is a good example of many cases, in fact. The Right Way would be to serve a 'vanilla' (x)html document where links are normal links, ie <a> elements, (or not links at all, if you REALLY know someone without javascript can't use what it links to anyway), which are assigned suitable IDs/classes, and then you have an "init" javascript routine which, assuming javascript is available and enabled in that user-agent, will run through those links in the DOM and rewrite them to your souped-up scripted alternative.

      With a library like JQuery it's not even difficult: $('.rewritelink').your_transform_func() for the link rewriting itself, plus it gives you a robust method of attaching your init routine. So you don't even need to worry about browser javascript compatibility, the library abstracts that away from you.

      Yes, it increases bandwidth (~53KB for Jquery) and CPU use, you could argue "unnecessarily", but it is a method of you, and everybody (blind and sighted users alike), having their cake and eating it. Hate javascript? Turn it off, get normal links. Resent even downloading the extra .js bytes? Well, at least this way it's a separate document, a distinct layer in the "onion skin", so the end-user still has the control to absolutely prevent that (eg, at HTTP or DOM level, Adblock, Greasemonkey, firewall/proxies, etc). Whereas if you leap into, say, Flash or Silverlight instead, you're leaving people an all-or-nothing choice.

      Just some food for thought. Although my post is seemingly "disagreeing", thanks for your post, it was refreshing to read a cogent argument in favour of added web dev whiz-bang, which is rare on slashdot.

    10. Re:My philosophy by syousef · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The problem lies with them, not everybody else. Why should I be denied peanuts because somebody else can't handle them?

      Because if you're denied peanuts, they get to live. In a civilized society it shouldn't be a big deal to keep common areas safe for everyone. The fact that you're unwilling to give up a single food (or a handful of foods) to keep others from either dying or being unable to function in society makes you a self centered moron. You'd probably be the first person to piss and moan if you were the one with the allergy.

      --
      These posts express my own personal views, not those of my employer
    11. Re:My philosophy by mdielmann · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You may not have noticed, but we've been avoiding natural selection as a culture/species for a VERY long time. We take care of the disabled, the elderly, those who get badly injured, etc., etc. Imagine the loss to our civilization had we left Stephen Hawking to die. And like most people, I imagine you'll change your mind if you find you have a moderately serious congenital defect.

      --
      Sure I'm paranoid, but am I paranoid enough?
    12. Re:My philosophy by MisterSquid · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Your formulation of the problem is an example of how selfish people can be, how someone can believe their trivial desires not only can but should trump the right to life of others.

      The reason a person might decide not to eat peanuts given that doing so might kill someone is that he or she might conclude that someone's life outweighs another's pleasure in eating peanuts.

      Can you be that impervious to the concept of the greater good?

      --
      blog
    13. Re:My philosophy by jawtheshark · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Why don't you homeschool your child if they can't function without bringing dangerous substances into the schoolyard.
      [...]

      Same way that your child is asked not to bring dangerous weapons (knives, guns) to school regardless of weather [sic] or not your child is likely to use them in a criminal way.

      I feel for your daughter, but there is a difference between the two situations. Peanut-oil/-butter/-etc is not a dangerous substance. Your daughter is allergic to a normally non dangerous substance.

      Bringing really dangerous stuff, like weapons, is dangerous to every kid on the premises. Peanut butter is not. Imagine a kid that could not be in the same room as a loaf of bread. Would you ban the other schoolkids from bringing bread?

      The problem here is not peanuts, but your daughters condition. I do understand you're worried about the whole thing, but consider this: next time you take her to the mall, there could be a promotional stand with someone serving peanut butter.... or someone just ate lunch and didn't notice some peanut butter left on his hands and he happens to stand behind her in the line. You can easily imagine a dozen situation in which she'll be exposed to peanut butter. Not directly, after all, you claim she can get problems by just being in vicinity of it.

      Fact is: your daughter is going to have a terrible life because of this disability. She'll be safe nowhere, with the possible exception of "at home". I feel for her, but you're not going to be able to protect her. You have to realise that a 100 years ago, your kid would have died at an early age and you wouldn't even have known that it was because of peanuts. Don't mistake me for saying that your daughter should die: I only want to put this in perspective for you.

      The world is a dangerous place.... For everyone, but due to her condition, more to your daughter.

      --
      Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
    14. Re:My philosophy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Some people are allergic to peanuts. Others are allergic to tree nuts. Milk and shellfish are other common food allergies where minute amounts can kill somebody. Eventually humans will develop enough allergies that all foods will be excluded from communal areas.

      What about the poor vegetarian kid whose only source of protein is nuts because he's allergic to milk? Can he just not go to the same school as the kid who's allergic to peanuts?

      Face it, denying me my favorite food just because some tiny fraction of the population has a chance to die if they're near me is ridiculous. That provides no benefit to me. OTOH, giving me an accessible web site just because a tiny fraction of the population can't use it otherwise is actually a good idea. I benefit from an accessible web site also. I can load it on a slow connection, use it without a mouse, print it, etc.

      dom

    15. Re:My philosophy by ari_j · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I also spat peanut debris at her while on the flight, and at the gate I overheard her giggling to her father about nobody getting peanuts now. Does that help eliminate some of the assumptions?

      On a side note, do people here believe everything they read in a Slashdot comment? The point is that, if you really can't be around peanuts, don't go places where there are guaranteed to be peanuts. You are the cheaper cost avoider, just like people with fear of heights should take the train rather than insisting that the jet taxi the whole way. It's exactly the same thing. You have an idiosyncrasy that requires you to work around it, and the only excuse you have for doing so is that you suffer a severe entitlement complex.

  5. It isn't that hard by HappySqurriel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I've worked as a web developer for years and can honestly say that it isn't hard to make an accessable website/webapplication but it doesn't happen because no one is willing to pay for it. Even the fact that there are laws in place in some countries that require certain standards doesn't motivate (most) clients into paying the extra 5% to have an accessable website; on top of this it doesn't help that your (dishonest) VP of marketing just pulls a number out of the air when they go after a project and you are (typically) heavily underfunded for the work you have to do.

    1. Re:It isn't that hard by smellotron · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Wouldn't an accessible site be simpler to create?

      Well, yes, but here's the thing. It's easy to make a page look good in all browsers and be future-proof, but it does limit the artistic control of the designer. It's really just another application of the 80/20 rule. 80% of the desired style can be developed cheaply and be both accessible and (mostly) standards-compliant. The other 20% that customers get really goddamn picky about is what causes the expense. That's the stuff like pixel-perfect accuracy, arbitrary embedded media, and all of the gaudy flash that most sites would be better off without anyways.

      And that's why I never got into the mercenery web developer business.

  6. Googlephone by Thelasko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I tried using Googlephone yesterday and I found it to work quite well. It had some trouble understanding my speech but it got the job done and it didn't sound like Stephen Hawking. Sure it's only a computer substitute for directory assistance but I don't see why this can't be adapted for use by the blind.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  7. Diabetic=Blind? I guess eventually... by Cathoderoytube · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think it's a bit of a false dichotomy to compare what it's like being a diabetic to being completely blind. I don't think it's unreasonable to account for some access for people who can't actually see websites. I mean we have diet coke.

    --
    I have nothing compelling to say
    1. Re:Diabetic=Blind? I guess eventually... by techpawn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Can't you go blind having diabetes?

      --
      Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
    2. Re:Diabetic=Blind? I guess eventually... by crossmr · · Score: 2, Informative

      We also have twinkies.
      The premise here is that all websites should be coded to be accessible to the blind. Therefore all food should be made to be edible by diabetics without worry.

      The difference between is that sites can do many things while being accessible, but food for diabetics really can't have any sugar in it.

  8. sigh.... by wizardforce · · Score: 2, Interesting

    you know, the "to hell with the blind let them fend for themselves" rhetoric is getting old. I mean really, the only arguments so far seem to be either along the lines of it's too expensive to introduce basic accessibility into web pages or that we shouldn't bother because you think it would be an inconvenience. that's... just... disgusting.

    --
    Sigs are too short to say anything truly profound so read the above post instead.
  9. I agree, it should not be mandatory by Shivetya · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A lot of the web's content exploits the ability to see. Whole websites are geared to nothing more than pictures and manipulation of them.

    How can rules be applied that would not be biased against the content choices of the providers? If a provider wanted to provide full length movies that they did not originate would it fall on them to provide versions that lend themselves to one disability or another or all?

    The simple fact is, not all aspects of life are enjoyable by all people. The primary limiting factor is loss or serious reduction of one of the senses, eyesight and hearing are the two primary ones that seriously alter one's methods of participation in the world.

    Second, the internet is NOT A RIGHT.

    Third, it is not a right to impose on someone your needs. I am so tired of people decrying their right to my stuff or someone else's, to include money, time, and or property. The web isn't a right. As such you cannot impose your problems on people who use it.

    --
    * Winners compare their achievements to their goals, losers compare theirs to that of others.
  10. Why even debate? by FranTaylor · · Score: 4, Insightful

    At least in the US, it's the law that you have to use well-known and available methods to allow handicapped people into your place of business. For example, you don't have to provide access for someone in a ventilator, because that would be impractical, but you do have to provide access for someone in a wheelchair, because it's really not all that hard. The EXACT same principle should apply to the web. Providing access to the blind on the web is probably a lot easier than providing wheelchair access in a bricks-and-mortar store.

  11. Limited by management ... by jc42 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    On any number of projects where I've provided a web interface, I've been told in no uncertain words that I was to make pages that were tailored for exactly the browser and screen that the project's manager uses.

    Thus, I've often been told that the pages must be forced via things like width= attributes to be exactly N pixels wide, even when there's nothing in a page that is dependent on any particular width. I've been ordered to present some data in pictorial form, even when simple text data was easier to understand and took less screen space.

    So very often, managers explicitly order their developers to produce web pages that are inaccessible to anyone other than people exactly like them.

    There are some ways that one can fight this. In a few cases, I've found that I can "go over the boss's head" by showing a higher-up something that they find useful. I happen to know that they have a Blackberry or a Treo that they love and use all the time, and my boss's declared page structure won't work on their machine, so eventually orders come down to make the web interface usable on the higher-ups' favorite little handheld gadget. While doing this, I can also sneak in things that make it more accessible to the disabled.

    But this is a passive-resistance approach, and it's not always successful. I like to also try to get across the idea that you, yes you, may find yourself handicapped by this time next week, in a way that you can't predict. The sensible thing would be to guarantee that your minions' efforts are usable even after that accident or medical emergency has left you restricted in what you can see or read.

    But few managers are willing to take such a long-term view of the situation. So all too often, my pages aren't as accessible as I know how to make them.

    It would be nice to learn of other ways that we developers can fight such management intransigence.

    --
    Those who do study history are doomed to stand helplessly by while everyone else repeats it.
  12. You can't win them all by techpawn · · Score: 2, Informative

    But to a degree the ADA forces a lot of companies hands to make sure that their products and services can be used. It's not unreasonable to think that as a disabled person that I should have access to the same products and services as my non-disabled peers as long as the accommodation's would not cause undue strain on a company.

    Redesigning a web page may or may not fall under undue strain... I'm betting not. Then again not all pages are in the US and would be subject to something in the ADA.

    --
    Ask not what you can do for your country. Ask what your country did to you
  13. Re:Death to flash! by Presto+Vivace · · Score: 2, Funny
  14. The largest difficulty by Evets · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I have looked into developing for screen readers in the past, but the biggest problem I've run into is the software being used by the disabled.

    1) there are great disparities between how the screen readers interpret things.
    2) the most popular screen readers are expensive, and offer no free versions for developers.

    The Microsoft Narrator didn't hit my radar. I don't know anything about it, but if it's free and of high quality, that's a major step forward.

  15. You are in Slashdot by Pseudonymus+Bosch · · Score: 4, Informative

    is there some good reason for keeping people (and their money) out of your business? CmdrTaco has said that he is not particularly concerned when some of the new features don't work in IE since most of the readers use Firefox.
    --
    __
    Men with no respect for life must never be allowed to control the ultimate instruments of death.
    GW Bu
  16. Re: Free Market vs Regulations by JamJam · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sure free market but sometimes society, in general, needs a bit of a push in the right direction. I don't know about your part of the world but here public buildings need to be accessible to those in wheelchairs. I'm pretty certain the "free market economy" would not have driven that change without a push from regulations.

  17. It would be nice if it could be better... by brennanw · · Score: 4, Insightful

    ... but some kind of sites are going to have more challenges than others.

    For example, I publish a few webcomics (at Ubersoft.net). A webcomic is an image file (in my case, pngs) which are flat-out useless to the blind. Now, there are specifications about how graphics should be used to make them useful to the blind (i.e., include a complete description of the graphic within the img tag -- using "alt" I think, though I'm not sure) but this seems counterproductive. Webcomics as a whole are somewhat useless to the blind because they are a visual medium. Granted, my art is lousy and static but it is still presented visually.

    So how much trouble should I, a publisher of a medium that seems to fundamentally work against a blind man or woman's browsing experience, put into making my site accessible to them?

    As it happens, I do try some, though I am unfamiliar with the latest accessibility guidelines. I use css and xhtml (as best I can) to tag the site properly and make it navigable to a screen reader. This is a bit challenging since the publishing system I'm using (Drupal) makes it difficult for me to sift through everything, but I'm making slow progress. I've also started transcribing my comic archives -- primarily to make them searchable by my site's search engine, but one of my readers pointed out that it also allows a blind visitor to actually read the dialog.

    There are other types of sites -- political discussion sites, news sites, sites like Slashdot -- where accessibility would be far more useful. The web was originally primarily text, and on sites where the content is still primarily text there's no reason it can't be designed to make that text more easily accessible to the visually impaired.

    --
    Eviscerati.Org: All Hail the Eviscerati
  18. ... with the exception of... by firefly4f4 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    www.homestarrunner.com. That can stay.

    Flash has it's uses, but it is strictly a visual format.

    I will agree that when it's used as the primary display method for a business website it annoys me to no end.

    1. Re:... with the exception of... by Yvan256 · · Score: 2, Funny

      What can stay? It's an empty black page with nothing on it.

  19. check out Title III of the ADA by buddyglass · · Score: 3, Informative

    ADA being the Americans with Disabilities Act. In a nutshell, all "public accomodations" (such as restaurants, movie theaters, etc.) must comply with certain architectural requirements that make them accessible to the physically disabled. While there's currently no provision for non-brick-and-morter public accomodations, I could certainly see that being added. Of course it would only impact the websites of businesses with a presence in the United States, but that's still a big pool. Note that this would almost surely not cover personal websites that aren't related to any commercial activity. So the guy who hacks together a page of photos for his extended family wouldn't be affected by this legislation.

    http://www.ada.gov/cguide.htm#anchor62335
  20. It's all about how you use it too! by Vilorman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I am legally blind... I'm 20/800 natively and 20/200 best correction from optic nerve problems and I use the computer all day long, in fact, I'm an IT professional!

    I can say first hand that I would love to see better computer resources for the visually disabled, as well as for other disabilities! And, more so, better pricing on the resources that are available! For instance, a Zoomtext for Windows is almost a thousand bucks. Where the same features are built into the Mac!?!?!? But Apple charges $2,000 for their 30" display where a Dell is only $1,000!?!?!

    I wouldn't dream of pushing my computer platform on anyone but Apple seems to have gotten the support for low vision working better than others. I run three monitors, 24L, 30C and 24R. The two side monitors run 1280x800 and the center runs 1440x900. Very low and disgusting resolutions by todays standards but it's what I need to be able to sit comfortably and still see the screens.

    I think that in general, it's not so much of a software issue as it is hardware. Take low vision like mine for example... I'd love to have a wrap around display like you see in the movies, set on about an 8" or 10" stand so that I can get the monitor nice and close and still be able to move the keyboard out a distance far enough to type.

    Regardless of weather you like flash or music on the home page or image files (I'm in IT geek, I hate them all) the users with poor vision should not be limited to what they can see or not see in the design of software/web pages. If there was adequate hardware support for this need, it will be a non-issue.

    --
    -brian -- Brian D. McGrew { brian at visionpro dot com } --- > But his grip on his santiy hovers somewhere bet
  21. ...pages entirely flash based... by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 5, Funny

    Two words. Sing them with me:

    Flash! Aaa-aah!

    --
    Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    1. Re:...pages entirely flash based... by JorDan+Clock · · Score: 3, Funny

      Saviour of the Universe! Er... I think Queen was a little optimistic.

  22. An Easier Fix by DynaSoar · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Try reading some HTML as text:

    Greater than, quote, less than, semi-quote, have no more right to demand that others provide for their needs than I, comma, as a diabetic, comma, have a right to demand that sugar no longer be used, period, semi-quote, greater than, slash, quote, less than.

    I got results like that when I tried to use a voice synthesizer to read HTML email. Note that it doesn't differentiate between reading the 'quote' inside the tags and the 'semi-quote' in the quoted text.

    Good luck on trying to get everybody and his invisible pal to reformat all their web and email. Far more likely to succeed would be to entice browser and email client developers to produce smart HTML strippers (and Flash readers, etc.) to produce a text-only output for use in voice synthesizers, and/or develop voice synthesizer plug-ins that process the HTML etc. as proper inflections (for bold, underline, etc) or statements ("quote"/"unquote") to be spoken.

    There's a relatively small but steady market for accessibility-related software. Much of what's produced is subsidized by tax money, of which there's a high user-per capita quotient. A developer might not sell as many of such programs, but with fewer users per dollar, that means less support downstream. And with only a few developers focusing on that market, they can each make some decent money. Of course open developers such as the Mozilla group could do the same, for the usual reasons.

    To hook up with people in this area, visit with the accessibility people found at many public and university libraries (at some universities it's a separate department).

    Another problem needing fixing is closed caption voice-to-text processing, to give the deaf (or the Deaf, the capitalization is an important distinction) the ability to watch the now ubiquitous videos on news site and such, without having to wear their eyes out trying to lipread the low rez/bandwidth video usually produced. Take in video, buffer for later use, read audio and produce closed captioning, and send output to a window with CC synced to and overlaying the previously buffered video.

    Note to commercial developers: producing such things under tax-supported/non-profit/government agency label might not earn a lot of money, but what it does earn can be taken as tax-deductions, as can the "money" that goes into the inevitable (and admittedly high-per capita) support.

    --
    "I may be synthetic, but I'm not stupid." -- Bishop 341-B
  23. Speaking as one who has both problems by davmoo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Since this article hits on both, conveniently I am both diabetic and have vision problems (I can see, but I have a horrid prescription to do so, and even then cannot see anywhere near 20/20).

    While I think its nice if businesses accommodate those who are visually impaired, and I think its in their own best interest to do so (just because I have trouble seeing doesn't mean I don't spend money :-) ), I am (almost rabidly) opposed to the idea of government enforcement to do so. The quickest way to ruin something good is to add government intervention.

    There are a number of websites, both commercial and not, that I have trouble reading. Know what I do? I go browse somewhere else.

    What are we going to require next? Special keyboards at public internet stations for those who are prone to hangnails?

    If I had a commercial website and someone or some government entity *demanded* or *required* that I arrange my page a certain way, etc, quite frankly I'd tell them to go get fucked.

    --
    I want a new quote. One that won't spill. One that don't cost too much. Or come in a pill.
  24. Re:The problem isn't the webpages by extra88 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Your idea is stupid. Nevermind that you're talking about OCRing a medium that is already predominantly electronic text to begin with, OCR is not some magic wand. Even the best software makes errors even with very consistently laid out text. How are you going to OCR the menu items in the shitty Flash navigation that only shows up when you mouse over it?

    Most sites don't provide mobile pages and many that do create them just by using a different CSS file. That said, the blind probably do use mobile pages and RSS feeds to read content in lieu of poorly designed web pages.

    Until the blind come together and put their money where their needs are...
    What money? The unemployment rate for the visually impaired is pretty high and many of the jobs they have do not pay well. Even so, some do pay, through the nose. JAWS, arguably the best screen reader product, costs almost 900 dollars. Even for that high price it can only really work well when site designers do follow the guidelines to make their sites accessible.

    No soup for you I guess.
    Asshole.
  25. Well I'm a diabetic... by Mexican · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...and to me, the response from the diabetic is cowardly at best. It shows a bitterness and a level of immaturity at accepting the diabetic diagnosis, and necessary lifestyle, for what it is.

    Sure, you can take your twinkies and powdered donuts and shove them - I'll have the salad. I'm not happy with that, I'd rather have the sweets.

    But the fact is, I'm stuck with this disease, but yet - I can choose to control it. Not perfectly, but surprisingly well with some discipline and strict adherence to medical advice and treatment. Hey, even then, it may just kill me a lot sooner than most, but it is what it is.

    But you know what? Right now, in spite of some limits, and self-denial, my quality of life is every bit as good as any other sighted person in good health.

    The blind, however, have little control over their condition, or their surroundings, or their interaction with the world. I see a moral imperitive to assist them if it is not overly burdonsome to do so. Web pages can be crafted in such a manner in most cases, except where the material is truly only visual (nekkid ladies)?

    So hopefully I've helped to kill off that pathetic and selfish counterargument against access for the truely handicapped.

  26. Sometimes it has no excuse by Moraelin · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Sometimes it just has no excuse. E.g.,

    1. government / local government pages. Even skipping past the issue that they should set an example by obeying the rules they voted into law... Exactly how do those depend ad revenue?

    2. I go to some manufacturer's web page, to buy something or get some drivers like the GP, and... some are really a bad case of flash overdose, and some are full of ads too. Bonus points when occasionally it's not even to their own products. But anyway, WTF? I'm there either to buy something they make, or because I _have_ bought something they make. Why should I be bombarded with ads there? No, seriously.

    And even skipping the banner ads, I've seen a couple where I had to go through loops and plough through pages after pages of marketing gibberish, just to get to the page with the prices. In at least one case I gave up because I just couldn't find the price list.

    And a some have horrible colours, fonts and layouts too, and make wrong use of graphics at that, just because aparently someone thought it's all the rage to look like the funky marketing brochure. Thankfully that became a lot more rare over the years, but sadly it's still not dead, and it keeps coming back like a vampire.

    This isn't just a case of "bad design" as in page layout and technologies used. It's outright stupid. It's not even just a case of letting the marketing drones in charge, it's letting the _stupid_ marketing drones in charge. If you want to sell me something, don't annoy me first and don't make it hard to get to (A) the specs, and (B) the prices and/or online shop pages. No, I'm not interested in how many decades of buzzwords you leverage, nor in your synergies, nor in how award-winning/industry-standard/customer-centric/buzzword-driven you are. I'm not there to play Bullshit Bingo, so just let me know (A) exactly what you sell, and (B) for what price.

    At any rate, the couple of cents they might get in ads there, sorry, just aren't worth losing a potential sale over, no matter how I want to look at it. And it feels _petty_ that when I'm looking to buy something that costs hundreds of bucks, someone tries to shaft a few cents out of me with their maze of ads. It's like meeting their sales guy and seeing him trying to steal my office pens. It just doesn't make a good impression, ya know?

    3. (Or 2B.) Some game publishers' pages. E.g., dunno, I want to know what their latest game is all about. Or I bought it and need a patch. Or whatever, really. And I'm forced to sit and twiddle thumbs while their flash loads, then have to read the information in a tiny window, with a tiny font, split into a gazillion tiny pages, and with a shitty colour scheme to boot.

    I mean, wtf? Either I'm looking to buy their game, or I already blew some money on their game. And especially in the latter case, let's make one thing clear: the whole market for unfinished buggy games exist only because of the promise that they'll make up by offering a free patch later. I'm already annoyed by that deal, don't push it. Making me essentially pay for the patch by watching ads, or worse yet by putting it on some shitty site that makes me wait an hour for the download unless I pay to subscribe, is just adding insult to injury.

    And let's make another thing clear: I _paid_ for that game. Don't make me go through a mandatory form that wants to know even my exact street number, telephone number, birth date, and size of condoms I use. I'm looking at you, EA. I already paid, ok? I'm not your data-mining guinea pig too.

    Admittedly, probably the blind don't play first person shooters or console RPGs much, but I find it just as annoying as a guy who doesn't even need glasses yet.

    4. But perhaps the best way to say it is that I have been before one of the guys who programmed those shitty sites, or helped fix their performance problems. I still have nightmares about some colour schemes like orange on orange-ish yellow, or cyan on bright blue, that I had to implement during the dotcom years. Or the clas

    --
    A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
    1. Re:Sometimes it has no excuse by arakon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Please see he definition of "greedy". I am in no way saying that any of your points are wrong, you can install ad-blocker like I did and block the more intrusive ones (Flash Pop-overs being my arch nemesis) like I have done. My post simply pointed out why it is being done on a large scale. Greed is their reason, They don't need an excuse.

      The game publishers just want to wow you with something to increase the likely hood of a sale. Probably not the type of people who will miss out on sales to the blind. EA? Oh they are the greediest bastards in the biz. They want your info so they can sell it, again see greed -> root; money.

      They are people looking to make more money no matter how sleazy the look doing it. Your salesman example works because you are Face to face with said salesman; he is an entity with which you can express your personal disgust with and work to generate a more conducive if brief interchange. Web pages are faceless corporations.

      For the most part Web pages are meant to be mostly one way communication (Like television) and like television the audacity of ads (now every 3-5 minutes instead o 10-15)has increased. Apparently the running theory is that if they throw more ads at you, you will buy more stuff thereby giving them more money.

      The Problem is the more "in-your-face" they get the more they piss semi-intelligent people off. I don't even turn on the TV any more. ever. If there is a TV series I am interested in watching I just get it on DVD. Read the local paper, check CNN and slashdot and the guild page for one of my online games (not WoW), and that is the extent of my media intake. I read, write, work on my art in all that free-time I have now, and you know what?

      I feel better, my blood-pressure is down, I feel much more productive during the day, and I sleep much better. If this gets you so worked up perhaps you need to take a break and go on a media hiatus?

      PS. I am not a fan of Captcha's either since half the time I have trouble reading them, but having seen spam bots out of control I understand how they came to be.

      --
      "If I were bound by all laws everywhere I'm sure I would have committed a capital crime somewhere."
  27. Re:Potential by jd · · Score: 2, Interesting
    One of the underlying principles of things like common law is that everyone deserves reasonableness. Justice cannot be guaranteed, but a reasonable effort to provide it can. Likewise, support for the blind or any other group cannot be guaranteed, but if you move the target threshold to what a reasonable blind person could expect, it becomes easier. This isn't perfect (what is?) as reasonableness is much harder to pin down. What is reasonable to one person may not be to another. I've been told that some speech synthesizers, like Jaws, have a tendency to crash if any other program attempts to play sounds. I, personally, would not consider that reasonable, but if that is the case, enough people must think it is for the company to still sell the software.

    Website design is probably the biggest problem. I sincerely doubt anyone with any impairment whatsoever would be able to navigate OpenLibrary's website very well, which is ironic at best. In the same way that web browsers and servers can already support the identification of the user's language, it should be possible to support the identification of common requirements. However, as almost nobody uses the language identifier, I can't see anyone using a requirements identifier even if it did exist.

    The next-biggest problem, however, is in the hands of the open-source community. There really isn't much serious competition to the companies selling thousand dollar screen readers. Festival doesn't exactly enjoy the same level of development as, say, Firefox. For that matter, as far as I know Firefox can't even make use of Festival and the only "screen reader" I ever found for Linux required the user to cut and paste the text into a window. There may well be plugins and packages I'm not aware of that can handle all that. I hope I've missed something. I'm rather concerned that I might not have.

    --
    It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
  28. Your philosophy is poorly informed by beetle496 · · Score: 3, Informative

    Those of us who work in the field of disability regard this issue as a matter of Civil Rights. Once you understand that about us, it may help you understand why we are dogmatic about it.

    The analogies people make to the build environment (e.g., ramps) are apt. If a designer does not incorporate the best practices that constitute electronic curb-cuts, there is nothing the best assistive technology (even at the helm of the most skilled end-user) can do to surmount the barrier.

    Fortunately, things have matured enough that I no longer have to convince programmers to do the right thing, as the law and economics are on the correct side (this time). If you want to sell to the Federal government you need to make your stuff accessible.

    --
    I paid the going retail price for a Windows screen reader and got a free Unix computer!
  29. Accessibility forces good metadata by benwaggoner · · Score: 2, Insightful

    We shouldn't forget the welcome side-effects of accessibility requirements; they can often offer positive benefits well beyond their original target audience.

    Take the Americans with Disabilities Act. Among other things, stuff gets wheelchair accessible. Which also makes them stroller accessible! Traveling with a young kid in Europe is much, much harder than it is here, since all the work to make things work for wheelchairs also works with strollers. Moving equipment around on carts is also a lot easier.

    We can get similar effects with metadata. In SIlverlight, we're doing a lot of work for it to support accessibility, both for screen readers and for captioning of audio assets. It turns out that infrastructure metadata is enormously useful for searchability and indexing. Getting a nicely transcribed text stream into media assets enables a whole lot of cool stuff, like being able to automatically build menus and transcripts. And being able to search for, and seek to, keywords.

  30. Accessible Web by esme · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The thing about the changes needed for web accessibility is that it requires web pages that are more machine-parsable (since screen-readers need to parse web pages better than visual-oriented browsers, where the parsing can be all thrown off as long as the end display works out). So it surprises me to see so much opposition to web accessibility when web pages that are standards-compliant and more machine-parsable should be very desirable.

    I, for one, would love to have more of my content in more structured, more standards-compliant formats like RSS and Atom. It would open up more possibilities for autonomous agents, richer interactive clients, less reliance on overwrought Javascript navigation, and would provide better accessibility for the blind at the same time.

  31. A lesson in the Social Model of Disability by wumpyness · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A lot the same arguments crop up here whenever the subject of web accessibility arises. It's pretty obvious that playing on people's sense of ethics/compassion once again fails, so let's concentrate primarily on the economic arguments:

    1. First of all, the "free market" argument doesn't hold water, since most industrialized nations have some sort of welfare system. Every time a disabled person has to get alternative accommodation because they were refused it in the public sphere, the workaround comes out of pockets of the taxpayers, disabled or not. A business owner may not have to pay for not making a site accessible, but everyone working there (a.k.a. Joe taxpayer) will pay in the long term.

    2. Having multiple systems to accomplish the same goals is almost always more expensive than having a universally designed one. e.g. We are seeing this with public transportation in many cities - making conventional busses wheelchair-accessible is cheaper than subsidizing both a conventional transit system and an additional paratransit system.

    3. By increasing disabled persons' participation in society, we can stimulate the economy. We are not talking small numbers of ppl (approx. 10-20% of citizens in wealthier nation have some sort of disability and the numbers are higher in less wealthy nations). Nor are we talking small dollar amounts ($3 trillion dollars worldwide). Just because businesses are unaware of these stats doesn't mean the numbers aren't there.

    Other things to consider:

    Disabled people aren't demanding absolutely everything on the planet be accessible, where do people get this idea? Stop vilifying them as such already. Accessibility is not about "special treatment", it is about undoing something that was done wrong in the first place. It's like saying the abolishment of slavery is giving "special treatment" to Blacks. The real drama queens are the ones claiming that accessibility is such a huge burden (and without any stats to back it up).

    Access to the internet may not be a right, but more and more activities connected to our rights are accessed primarily by the internet. With rare exception, everyone becomes disabled at some point in their lives. Disability isn't merely a special interest group, it's everyone.

    Furthermore, as has already been said many times in many ways, the measures to make websites accessible are fairly easy and straightforward - otherwise ur doin' it wrong.

    I think a few of you need a lesson in the Social Model of Disability.

  32. This is how it sounds when you use JAWS by Crimson+Fire · · Score: 2, Informative

    I decided to run the computerworld article through JAWS (A Windows-based screen reader) and their site seems a good example of why it's so frustrating. (JAWS has a 40 minute mode which web people can use to test their designs, I find it very useful).

    Here is what you hear:

    "Link Graphic Click here to find out more, Link Graphic Click here to find out more, Link Graphic Click here to find out more, Link Graphic Click here to find out more." Then you get the top images, which are well described, then you have a Jump To section, again, not too bad, and the search is clear.

    Then you're thrown into the navigation without any kind of skip link and no access keys. Then you get ads to download MS Search Server and an Ebook, Network Scanner, Virtualisation something. Then a Table to sign up for newsletters, then print edition. THEN you reach the content.

    Admitedly you can use headings to skip to content, which is a bonus, but I've not seen a huge number of sites that use headings correctly.

    You get the Heading, Sub Heading, then the comments, recommended and share links, then the Comments/Related box to the left of the article. Then the Zone advert THEN you get to the content of the article. The quote isn't obvious, there's a message for me to get the latest flash player, then the remainder of the article.

    After this are the page links. "Link 2, Link 3, Link Next Right double angle bracket"

    It should be noted that I am not a very competent screen reader user and that experienced users can speed this process up and if you have headings (Which computerworld do) you can skip to H1 and save a lot of time, but to be honest their site could do with fixing, just like the majority of ones I see (myself included sometimes, I'm still learning too).

  33. probably yes... by BlackTarw · · Score: 2, Informative

    It's not hard to check if your site is accessible, turn off images, script, flash and css in your browser, if you can still use the site and navigate around, you shouldn't have much of an issue. The internet for the blind and partially sighted people is a frustrating place, the browser and plug-ins they have to use are pretty poor. This is not helped by developers being lazy. It's not hard to make a site accessible, it's just that it's very easy to make a site inaccessible.

    1. Re:probably yes... by DigitalSorceress · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The thing is, that if one follows BlackTarw's advice, then they also make a site that will work for those of us who run addons like NoScript and FlashBlock. In a nutshell, the more accessible to the blind and sight-impaired, the better the chance that a security-conscious user will actually be able to use the site without having to open their browser up to attack.

      Personally, I can't stand sites that *require* Flash and/or JavaScript in order to be usable.

      --

      The Digital Sorceress
  34. Site design for blind also helps cellphones by Krellan · · Score: 2, Informative

    Designing a website so that it can be properly used by the blind also helps design it well for cellphones. Many cellphones have trouble displaying images, or the connection speed is so slow that many people choose to disable images.

    Clickable images are often useless on a cellphone, which scales down the image to the point of being unreadable, and also lacks a mouse pointer with which to click on the image.

    Flash, and the more complicated parts of JavaScript, are often not supported. AJAX probably won't work.

    And finally, many cellphone users are paying by the KB for their downloads! I certainly don't want that charge to be wasted on a useless Flash animation that only serves as a gatekeeper to the real content I'm trying to get at.

    Designing a website for the blind isn't profitable. However, designing for cellphones is!

    Maybe setting a browser to spoof the User-Agent setting, to appear to be coming from a cellphone, might help?

  35. Worse the comparing Apples and Oranges. by Eternal+Annoyance · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Blindness and diabetes are 2 completely different things, blindness being a lot worse as diabetes.

    with diabetes you've got a diet issue, with blindness you're actually missing one of your primary senses. That's quite a difference. A difference which goes waaaay beyond comparing apples with oranges.

    With diabetes you've still got all your senses, with blindness you haven't.
    With diabetes you can still eat (however limited in some cases), with blindness you don't see anything.

    Granted, diabetes has as a consequence you are faster tired. But that still makes it a lot more bearable as blindness.

    Oh, and one last thing... You aren't confronted with diabetes all day; with blindness, darkness is endless and lasts until it's fixed or until you die.