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Patent Chief Decries Continued Downward Spiral of Patent Quality

Techdirt is reporting that Jon Dudas, head of the US Patent Office, is lamenting the continuing quality drop in patent submissions. Unfortunately, while this problem is finally getting the attention it deserves, the changes being implemented don't seem to be offering the correct solution. "When you set up a system that rewards people for not actually innovating in the market (but just speculating on paper), then of course, you're going to get more of that activity. When you set up a system that rewards those people to massive levels, well out of proportion with their contribution to any product, then of course you're going to get more of that activity. When you set up a system that gives people a full monopoly right that can be used to set up a toll booth on the natural path of innovation, then of course you're going to get more of that activity. When the cost of getting a patent is so much smaller than the potential payoff of suing others with it, then of course you're going to get more of that activity. The fact that Dudas is just noticing this now, while still pushing for changes that will make the problem worse, is a real problem. Patents were only supposed to be used in special cases. The fact that they've become the norm, rather than the exception, is a problem, and it doesn't seem like anyone is seriously looking into fixing that."

179 comments

  1. Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred ... by eldavojohn · · Score: 5, Funny

    from the dudas-just-wants-his-rug-back dept. He doesn't want it back, he wants it replaced. He still has the original but it has Asian-American urine all over it which is too bad because that rug really tied the room together.
    --
    My work here is dung.
  2. Jon Dudas? by XxtraLarGe · · Score: 3, Funny

    At first I accidentally read that as Don Judas. Now that would be an interesting name for the head of the USPTO!

    --
    Taking guns away from the 99% gives the 1% 100% of the power.
    1. Re:Jon Dudas? by smittyoneeach · · Score: 2, Funny

      Especially with a Master's in Divinity, some opera training, and a leather-clad metal band to back him up.
      I've done my share / of workin' out...

      --
      Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
  3. That is my fault. by khasim · · Score: 3, Funny

    I patented the means of patenting "quality patents".

    1. Re:That is my fault. by pha7boy · · Score: 2, Funny

      you'll make no money that way. I'm filling a patent for "un-innovating patents." I'll be rich!

      --
      -- All this knowledge is giving me a raging brainer.
  4. Re:Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred .. by pete-classic · · Score: 3, Funny

    Well, no, not exactly. It's a complicated case, eldavojohn. Lotta ins. Lotta outs. And a lotta strands to keep in my head, man. Lotta strands in old Duder's--

    He wanted compensation for the first rug. He wanted the second one back. The one that held sentimental value for Maude.

    -Peter

  5. Why allow corporations to own patents? by MisterSquirrel · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Not only is innovation stifled, but it serves to further concentrate wealth, and the power over future wealth, into the hands of fewer and bigger corporations. How about we change it so that only an individual can hold the rights to a patent, without allowing the benefits to accrue to the employer of that individual? And that individual must be the actual creator of the patented idea in question?

    1. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I thought the express purpose of our government was to concentrate wealth into the hands of the fewer and bigger corporations that own it.

      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    2. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      By limiting patents to individuals it doesn't necessarily follow that society benefits. Even with non-transferrable patents individuals could still file specious, absurd and obvious patents on things like software and mathematical formulas under that system.

      It would also simply concentrate patents into the hands of wealthy individuals. As someone who's reasonably well educated and creative I have happened upon at least three or four ideas in my life that are worth a patent. Not silly stuff, I mean solid ideas with practical industrial benefit. Of course I cannot afford the $10,000+ to patent such ideas, and since publishing is no longer a protection against having these ideas misappropriated by persons in the USA I choose to keep them to myself. Those ideas will probably be thought of by someone else soon enough, I am nothing special, but for the time being they stay in my mind and may die with me. I have no desire to make money from them, but I cannot publish if I want the legitimate currency of recognition, nor can I patent them because it's not affordable. Does this sound like a system that is working to the benefit of mankind in promoting the arts and sciences?

      After 10 or 15 years of following this subject I have reached the conclusion that patents are profoundly anti-science, beyond reform and there is no course of action left but their complete abolition. The same is possibly true of intellectual property generally, but there are certain aspects that might still be rescued and turned to the benefit of humanity.

      If things carry on the way the are there will be a de facto abolition of patents anyway. WIPO will cease to be legitimately recognised as it loses credibility backing an unconsciable and broken process. The world will fragment (more than it is already) into camps which do not recognise one anothers intellectual property claims and trade agreements will collapse. We already have the situation where US and European companies cannot trade in each others respective territories. Like the RIAA/MPAA many IP organisations are unwilling to adapt, they are playing for broke and will ultimately lose the farm. Ultimately internet publication with verifiable timestamped accountability brought about by extensive traffic logging will replace all IP claims and the old institutions, but for those of us with ideas who are caught in this transition period it's not a happy state of affairs and I suspect many valuable ideas are simply being lost or held back.

    3. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I like your idea. It seems as though engineers get zero to little for patenting an idea while their company accrues all of the benefits of the patent. (e.g., here is $200 dollars for the rights to your patent!) However, companies do take on the risk that the patent will be worthless and pay for the patent prosecution costs -- they also provide much of the resources for the engineers to be able to come up with the ideas. Also, patents are a form of property and it would not be good for individual inventors to not be able to sell patents to companies ... who would buy and in most cases enforce them? Perhaps the ultimate (but perhaps very rare) best solution would be a corporate policy that allows their engineers to negotiate a percentage of any future revenue generated with the patent ... although this may lead to issues with determining the value of the patent especially when placed in a massive portfolio (e.g., IBM -- is any single patent of theirs worth anything -- or is it the entire portfolio of patents that is worth something as a whole ...)

      However, in the United States, the inventor must be listed on the patent as the inventor. If they are not, or if someone else is listed on the patent as an inventor (and they are not an inventor) then the patent is invalid.

      [Aside: There is case law on what constitutes an inventor -- the basic concept is someone who actually came up with the patentable portions of the idea ... not someone who simply implemented the idea.]

    4. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by edalytical · · Score: 1

      I think that was the original intent of the patent law, however, a corporation is legally and individual from what I understand.

      --
      Win a signed Stephen Carpenter ESP Guitar from the Deftones: http://def-tag.com/?r=0008781
    5. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That is not as much insightful as it is funny :)

    6. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 1

      It's essential that corporations be allowed to procure and hold patents. Otherwise my retirement plan just went out the window!

      --
      Invenio via vel creo
    7. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think you've stumbled on the problem sir.

    8. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      What happens if a research team develops the idea?

    9. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
      That's already the case...through the magic of corporate personhood.



      So you and three buddies form a corporation. Rather than be employees, trading time for dollars, you and your buddies can create real wealth for yourselves. Then you all get together and invent something. Who exactly owns it? Well, you and your buddies do, since you all own "shares" of this corporation you formed.


      Viola, your corporation is now an evil for-profit monster that only seeks to destroy the working class... soon the peasants will revolt and storm the winter palace and you will be disposed, your property absorbed into the state to be shared among the masses.


      Now the masses start working collectively, except someone has to be in charge. That's the communist party. No, they don't have to share with the masses. Oh...and they get to kill you if they think you are working against the common good. Or for no reason. People are now ALL (except The Party) trading time for rubles, only not trying very hard since everyone gets the same number of rubels regardless of how creative or hard working they are.


      every time you cry-ass that evil corp is concentrating wealth, instead of using your entrepreneurial creativity to build a better mouse trap: God kills a kitten, Stalin smiles, and humanity looses.


      In capitalism, man exploits man. In communism, it's the exact opposite.

    10. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by BigJClark · · Score: 1



      A corporation is an individual. Looks like they thought about that. Smart people we have to contend with here.

      --

      Hi, I Boris. Hear fix bear, yes?
    11. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Z00L00K · · Score: 1

      In that case you will get front figures that takes care of business and downfall while the company behind goes into the clear if the patent is considered invalid. Maybe a more extreme pricing of patents would keep the amount of bad patents down. Say that the one filing the patent will have to guarantee at least one million dollars or 20% of the fortune - whatever is the largest figure - before the filing will be accepted.

      --
      If builders built buildings the way programmers wrote programs, then the first woodpecker would destroy civilization.
    12. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      You just touched on what I see as the biggest problem. You have to be a rich person or a rich corporatuin to get a patent in the first place.

      When I had to have my head down after my Vitrectomy (it's journaled) I thought of a device that would have mede my life for that week and a half a lot less hellish. If patents were like copyrights and all I had to do was fill out a form with twenty bucks, I'd have applied for a petent on it and the world's vitrectomy sufferers would be spared some grief.

      But I can't afford a patent. If you thnk I'm going to give it to some big corporation for free You're crazy. If I could give it to the world for free I'd be fine with that, but the way the laws are it's impoessible; a big corporation would have it.

      So if you have a vitrectomy you can blame me for part of your suffering - because if patent laws were so that I as a middle class working man could get a patent, it would be on the market in no time.

      Patent laws are stifling innovation and copyright laws are stifling artistic creativity. Too bad "we, the people" lost our voice long ago.

      -mcgrew

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    13. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Sponge+Bath · · Score: 2, Funny

      ...corporations that own it.

      Government is like beer.
      You can only rent it.

    14. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Informative

      patents are profoundly anti-science

      Not anti-science; anti-technology. You can't patent a scientific discovery, And as you say, it shouldn't be that way. If a patent was twenty bucks you would have published.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    15. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I understand that you're trying to be bitterly dark and sarcastic, maybe even a little but humorous, but the "express" purpose of our government is spelled out in that little Constitution thing we like to bandy about during election years.

      You can argue that for the purpose of practical discussion we've fallen to a plutocracy; however, it is unfair to say that "fewer and bigger corporation own" the government - corporate lobbyists are a minority on K street. You're forgetting unions (AFL-CIO), old people (AARP), minorities (NAACP), bored lawyers (ACLU), etc.

      Money greases the cogs of governance, to be sure. But, more people than ever have money nowadays. Maybe political scientists can recognize the new breed of "democracy" we've formed in the Washingtonian super collider of... bad metaphors. You get my point.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    16. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Money greases the cogs of governance, to be sure. But, more people than ever have money nowadays. Maybe political scientists can recognize the new breed of "democracy" we've formed in the Washingtonian super collider of... bad metaphors. You get my point.

      That is a problem for sure. Can't have too many people owning too much money or everything gets screwed up. But there is a solution. The solution is to have the Federal Reserve print off a whole bunch more, then dole it out through the old boys network. Inside a couple of years, you have something like what happened to Russia, where the plutocrats own everything and the cash a person slaved their life away for goes into a wheelbarrow to buy bread with. So, don't fret. The solution is being implemented this very moment.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    17. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Can't say I know much about business in general apart from an intro. Business for Scientists class aimed towards pharmacists wanting to one day open their own business... but one thing the lecturer said that stuck out is that once an idea is put into the public domain, it can no longer be patented. One example used was a few years ago in the U.K. (on Big Brother, no less!) a contestant mentioned he wanted to make a toaster where by the second toast was delayed by 20 seconds to let you butter the first piece of toast. Once that was broadcast on TV, it became property of public domain. Wouldn't it be the same if you published your idea on the web or did I completely miss the point?

    18. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So you have three or four ideas with 'solid practical industrial benefit' - yet your going to take them to the grave on the chance someone else might profit on your work. Way to go!

      Sounds to me like you just want something for nothing. Your ideas are so valuable you are not willing to share it for the advancement of science or mankind, yet paying modest filing fees is "unfordable". The system is already tilted far off-balance towards the artificial monopoly rights a patent grants you, yet your complaining it isn't easy enough for you to get those rights.

      The patent system needs to be fundamentally changed so that true inventors are given extremely limited rights over their (machine, manufacture, or composition of matter) invention over a matter of years not decades. You are right that publishing should be a way to lay claim to an idea, but if something is not being actively exploited after publication it should fall into the public domain. It sounds to me like you would just publish an article on your "invention" and just wait for someone else to commercialize it before swooping in and claiming ownership. We have a name for those people, Patent Trolls.

    19. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "Of course I cannot afford the $10,000+ to patent such ideas, and since publishing is no longer a protection against having these ideas misappropriated by persons in the USA I choose to keep them to myself. Those ideas will probably be thought of by someone else soon enough, I am nothing special, but for the time being they stay in my mind and may die with me. I have no desire to make money from them, but I cannot publish if I want the legitimate currency of recognition, nor can I patent them because it's not affordable."

      The existance of patents are not stifling your contribution to society: in the absence of patents, your ideas could still be "misappropriated." I submit that what's holding you back is your unreasonable desire for "the legitimate currency of recognition," and that can't be guaranteed to you in our current system (without a hefty fee). You seem to be arguing for a stronger, more-pervasive patent system, which I think would be more detrimental than what we have now.

      Come on, man; share what you know, and make society better for everyone.

    20. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1
      This is why I believe people should declare the licensing cost for the patent when they file, and filing should be proportional to that fee. If you file a patent that anyone can use for free, then it costs nothing (or a nominal amount to cover someone entering it into the system). If you file a patent that you are going to make a lot of money from, then it should cost more.

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    21. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting
    22. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I would but they probably own a patent on telling anone anything.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    23. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Z34107 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Fed "old boys network" is a system of banks. When the Fed wants to lower the interest rates, they reduce the money supply by instructing their brokers to sell government bonds. Anybody can purchase these - the point is that there's less money in circulation (the Fed has it now and is sitting on it, while people have bonds.)

      Likewise, when they want to "print more money" (that's what the Bureau of Engraving and Printing does, actually) they instruct their brokers to buy bonds. Anyone is free to sell them, and the effect is that more money is in circulation. Instead of trading bonds for money, they trade money for bonds. It's not some illuminati association; they're probably the only branch of the government that isn't reveling in corruption.

      Running the presses would devalue the dollar therefore people's savings, but the problem is giving all of the new notes to only a few individuals. We don't have a system to do that; the government relies on private banks to circulate currency.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    24. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by sgt_doom · · Score: 1
      Well said, MisterSquirrel, well said.

      With the ongoing super-concentration of wealth - which severely limits the spread of existing resources and thusly creates a regression - or end to progress - and with the consistent defunding of education, and the exponentially increase in the offshoring of tech jobs and tech research and tech futures, who would have ever guessed that the quality of patents would plummet.....

      Newsflash: Pennsylvania, Wednesday AM....Obama takes majority of votes in democratic primary, but voting machines report he lost....

    25. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by rhakka · · Score: 1

      right, private banks.

      Much like the Fed itself. You know that's a private entity right?

      Now, private banks have to circulate currency.. the GP was talking about this old boy network.. wait for it... yes, the old boy network runs banks!!!

      I think I got it. The banking system is the system to perpetuate wealth in the hands of people who already have it.

      and now we get to "bail them all out" while the homes they helped everyone buy depreciate in value. weird, eh? almost like we have this system that makes sure the ones with money get to keep it, even when they screw up.....

    26. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      and now we get to "bail them all out" while the homes they helped everyone buy depreciate in value. weird, eh? almost like we have this system that makes sure the ones with money get to keep it, even when they screw up.....

      A little knowledge can be dangerous in the wrong hands. Emphasis on "little."

      The problem isn't that homes depreciated in value, whether or not they actually did. Banks made adjustable-rate loans to people who could barely afford them at the then-prevalent interest rate; they bought larger houses than they could afford, and defaulted the minute interest rates ratcheted up a point. These banks got burned when all the crappy loans they made went into default.

      Now, these banks should stay burned - that's the incentive not to make crappy loans. Now, I'd like some references on your bank bail-out; even McCain is against it, and to my knowledge nothing has happened. Hillary and Obama support different forms of bailouts to home owners, who should likewise stay burned for taking on more debt than they could afford.

      Excess supply in the housing market is an unrelated issue. Recall that we already had declining house values before the mortgage crisis, which merely worsened the pre-existing over-construction problem.

      Now, I seriously consider you don't have a savings or checking account, or a 401(k) retirement fund, or probably most any job. I'd hate for you to be complicit in that "old boys network" that's guilty of helping too many people buy homes.

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    27. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by OSPolicy · · Score: 1

      Patents can be held by entities besides individuals because awful things happen otherwise.

      Assume that I'm a small businessman and I have an idea for something that some lawyer may some day figure out how to portray as dangerous. Your idea forces me to choose between getting a patent to protect myself from corporate predators who would otherwise steal my idea and incorporating to protect myself from lawsuits arising from the use of my idea. If I get the patent, I can't hold it as a corporation. If I incorporate, I can't hold the patent.

      As a small businessman, I go to a bank and ask for a loan and offer my patent as part of the collateral. The bank then asks itself what will happen if I default on the loan. The bank will not be able to hold the patent. The bank can sell the patent only to another individual, which is a pretty small and funds-constrained market. The bank will severely discount the value of my patent and my business will suffer greatly as a result if I can find the capital to form the business at all.

      Under this scheme, can a corporation license a patent? Can it exclusively license a patent? If not, who's going to come up with the cash necessary to bring an idea to commercialization? In most cases, nobody. What if they can? What is the practical difference between a corporation owning a patent versus a corporation getting an exclusive perpetual lease on the rights conferred by the patent? No difference. There is no difference between XYZ Corp. holding a patent compared with XYZ Corp. buying sole rights to practice the patent and litigate against others who do likewise.

      So limiting patent ownership to individuals hurts those individuals and their businesses while doing nothing to constrain corporations.

    28. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

      So you have three or four ideas with 'solid practical industrial benefit' - yet your going to take them to the grave on the chance someone else might profit on your work. Way to go!

      Sounds to me like you just want something for nothing. Your ideas are so valuable you are not willing to share it for the advancement of science or mankind, yet paying modest filing fees is "unfordable". No, (s)he said he's not worried about getting the money, he just doesn't want to get ripped off. He wants credit, like scientists get when they publish first.

      The system is already tilted far off-balance towards the artificial monopoly rights a patent grants you, yet your complaining it isn't easy enough for you to get those rights.

      The patent system needs to be fundamentally changed so that true inventors are given extremely limited rights over their (machine, manufacture, or composition of matter) invention over a matter of years not decades. You are right that publishing should be a way to lay claim to an idea, but if something is not being actively exploited after publication it should fall into the public domain. And what if it is an invention whose time has not yet quite come, like some critical component of a successful space elevator? You're wrong - if the inventor makes a bona fide effort to realise his invention's potential, the patent should definitely go the full term.

      It sounds to me like you would just publish an article on your "invention" and just wait for someone else to commercialize it before swooping in and claiming ownership. We have a name for those people, Patent Trolls. No, if he doesn't file for a patent, he can't be a patent troll. What he is is someone who is providing prior art for a possible later patent holder, which should probably invalidate their patent.

      Regards, Non.
      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
    29. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by rhakka · · Score: 1

      $30 billion in "special financing" from the Fed for the a morgan-stearns buyout ring a bell? Or did you miss that one?

      excess housing supply is also not an "unrelated" issue. it was a bubble. The bubble was fueled by inappropriate lending practices and irrational exuberance, combined with the sudden revocation of much financial sector regulation in the 90's. Funny what happens when I am given a loan by someone who has no interest whatsoever in whether I'll pay it back or not... I tend to get loans I couldn't have gotten ten years ago. and when everyone stomps off to buy houses, builders BUILD MORE. wow! that's a direct relationship! Quick, what's the response to greater demand for a manufactured product?

      I'm not trying to make a college thesis here and I'm not really defending the GGP post.. I was really just pointing out that the GP post didn't really address the issues the GGP raised, that just because the banking industry isn't a part of our government that 'we don't have a system'. The fed is a part of our system, and is not a part of our government, and is the head of the banking industry in america.

      I also don't think that I need to completely opt out of society in order to have an opinion on the economy and how it is managed by people who are not beholden to us via our government in any way, shape or form.

    30. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      Much like the Fed itself. You know that's a private entity right? that depends on what you define as a "private entity".

      The Federal Reserve only exists by an act of congress, turns over its profits to the US treasury, and must report annually to congress on its status.

      Ownership of shares doesn't follow any of the traditional tenants of private property ownership. The owners ARE NOT FREE to dispose of their shares at their pleasure.

      It would be more realistic to say that all banks are obligated to leave a DEPOSIT with a government created institution in order to be a bank in the USA. A deposit of 6% of their net worth.

      Those "owners" thereafter can never get more than their deposit back because the federal reserve act fixes the value of each share at $100. Shares can only be bought and sold with the Fed itself, and only to keep your investment locked to 6% And the price is always $100.

      And they are compelled to do this by PUBLIC STATUTE.

      This is a very strange interpretation of the word "private property".

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    31. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by Melugo · · Score: 1

      Sure, he'd have published, but as he says, he's an average guy and he's had 4 ideas in his life. So there are millions of people like him, and each of them files a patent every 10 years, we're looking at several thousand a day, they just wouldn't be read. Having a published article acting as a patent is far more valuable since the publishing agency has a vested interest in the ideas they publish being good and so they can vet the ideas and select the best. Having a monetary dissuasion from publishing patents is always going to favour the rich, but having no dissuasion is not the solution, we need to discriminate on quality so that we can benefit the deserving.

    32. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      managed by people who are not beholden to us via our government in any way, shape or form. The Federal Reserve exists by statute and is therefore beholden to that statute and the body which wrote it (Congress). Incidentally it must report to congress annually, and it turns over all profits to the treasury. If you don't trust Federal Reserve Notes you can always ask your boss to pay you in peanuts.

      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    33. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by rhakka · · Score: 1

      it's not property, it's an entity, as I said. Lots of private entities are compelled to do things by public statute, so what? I am compelling to present my state and federal governments with a big fat check every 3 months to cover taxes they EXPECT me to owe next year, and every year I have to report to the government where I got all my money from. by PUBLIC STATUTE. does that mean I am not a private entity?

    34. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by rhakka · · Score: 1

      you're right, there are some rules it has to follow, just like the rest of us.

      Now, who authorized the $30 billion in special financing?

      Imagine, for one second, that the board of the fed might just happen to know lots of major shareholders in lots of major financial institutions... like morgan stearns... and speculate for one more moment on how much easier it would go on all of them if they could get something for their shares they would not have otherwise gotten. Make a vague claim about banking panic, and you're off scott free, because hey, you're the experts, right?

      I'm not going to say I even necessarily believe this, it's more being a devils' advocate for the conspiracy theorists, but I do have little doubt that most people are biased toward the interests of themselves and the people they know and identify with. And when our very banking system acts to protect itself against its own folly as a result of its own previously successful push to reduce regulation... who pays for that?

      it does seem to be a bit of a heads I win, tails you lose kind of situation if you step back a bit. while i would not say I know the truth of the matter, and I do not accept the conspiracy type theories as truth, I am certainly open to practices less than noble being the norm at very high levels of the game. witness, Enron, the savings and loans scandals, etc... it's not exactly unheard of stuff.

    35. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by DM9290 · · Score: 1

      Imagine, for one second, that the board of the fed might just happen to know lots of major shareholders in lots of major financial institutions... like morgan stearns... and speculate for one more moment on how much easier it would go on all of them if they could get something for their shares they would not have otherwise gotten. Make a vague claim about banking panic, and you're off scott free, because hey, you're the experts, right? The Board of the Fed does happen to know lots of major shareholders. But shares are locked at $100 BY LAW. You can NEVER GET MORE OR LESS. And you aren't free to buy or sell them either. This activity is dictated by law.

      So I'm not sure what your hypothetical situation is trying to say.

      it does seem to be a bit of a heads I win, tails you lose kind of situation if you step back a bit. while i would not say I know the truth of the matter, and I do not accept the conspiracy type theories as truth, I am certainly open to practices less than noble being the norm at very high levels of the game. witness, Enron, the savings and loans scandals, etc... it's not exactly unheard of stuff. I'm not suggesting anyone should trust the Fed. But I am suggesting people shouldn't merely speculate on how it works. They should read the Federal Reserve act, read the annual reports PERSONALLY. And unless they experienced with statutory interpretation they'll need to learn that first as well.
      --
      No one has a right to their *own* opinion. They have a right to the TRUTH.
    36. Re:Why allow corporations to own patents? by rhakka · · Score: 1

      shares for the federal reserve are locked in, ok. (for what it's worth, you have taught me a lot about the fed in a short time and you are right to push the issue, thank you).

      The federal reserve, however, just setup a massive bailout for a lot of major stockholders in a major financial institution (morgan stearns). That is a possible example of how power at the fed can be used to shield oneself and other "fat cats" from the results of their own greed. that is the "hypothetical" situation I was referring to, not the sell off of federal reserve shares or anything.

      And the "special financing" they authorized is not voted on by anyone.. and if they make any even halfway plausible argument about "bank panic", it will likely go completely unchallenged other than by the typical free marketeer out there.

  6. really? what a surprise by thermian · · Score: 5, Insightful

    it doesn't seem like anyone is seriously looking into fixing that

    Well, when the benefits of owning dodgy patents can be into the tens of millions, it would be well worth sinking a few million into the right peoples pockets to make sure no change goes unchallanged.

    All the while keeping any revision of the system on hold long enough for the rest of the world to overtake the US.

    Yeah, there are places in the world where innovate is still a word with a real and exciting meaning, not just a tired and overused technology business buzzword. I do wish this would be realised by the people who are in a position to change this bizarre patent mess.

    --
    A learning experience is one of those things that say, 'You know that thing you just did? Don't do that.' - D. Adams
  7. To summarize by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    This is what you expect in a world where lawyers have more power than engineers. Rethink the system and the problem goes away.

    1. Re:To summarize by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      I got modded troll and flamebait for saying this here once: we need to reboot the legal system.

      Mod me down again mister "the corporation can do no wrong and i'm better because I have more money" neocon, my karma's still excellent >=P

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  8. Patent fees? by wfstanle · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think that we might want to look at the fees we are charging for registering a patent. Perhaps we could implement a fee structure where small inventors pay less than large corporations that can afford more. Also we might want the fees to be based on how unique and original the idea is. Granted, this would be a rather subjective way to assess fees but this is an area where we might want to consider.

    1. Re:Patent fees? by Corpuscavernosa · · Score: 5, Informative

      Perhaps we could implement a fee structure where small inventors pay less than large corporations that can afford more

      Already done. Usually about half price for the little guys.

      --
      We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
    2. Re:Patent fees? by theantipop · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, it would be that easy if it were not for the USPTO's role in the system. They are meant to act as simply the hand of enforcement, not the source of significant change in US code or its interpretation. That is the job of Congress and the court system. You can see this in the recent attempt to limit the claim structure and continued examination process that was shot down by the courts. That was peanuts compared to a radical change in the statutory bar for patents.

    3. Re:Patent fees? by theantipop · · Score: 1

      Ugh... new comment system decided to change what I was replying to when I clicked "Use old form". Meant to reply to this comment.

    4. Re:Patent fees? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
    5. Re:Patent fees? by Belial6 · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Actually, they should have the sliding scale based on the number of patents you have. Huge corporations would get increasingly more expensive patents. They could mitigate this cost by releasing older, less valuable patents into the public domain. The small inventor would be able to afford the very low cost initial patents. If any of their patents paid off, they could then afford more. If they don't pay off, they could release them into the public domain, and not have to worry that some corporation will patent it behind them, and cut off their idea from the rest of the world.

    6. Re:Patent fees? by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

      Please report it as a bug, and draw their attention to the extremely limited width of the text box, as well.

      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
    7. Re:Patent fees? by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

      Now this is an idea with some serious merit. :-)

      Who do we go to to get it drawn to someone's attention?

      Regards, Non.

      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
    8. Re:Patent fees? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Corporations would get around this the same way that Hollywood's 'innovative' accounting practices make sure that they 'never turn a profit.' There would be dozens of shell corporations owned by the parent corporation that would be the 'actual' owners of the patents.

      Or else they might find some other signee of the Berne Convention and patent it in that locality, using the legal system to get the US to recognize the patent.

  9. Isn't this easily solved by wile_e_wonka · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Couldn't this problem be easily solved by telling all the patent examiners

    "Memo: Hey, As of this morning we're going to raise the bar a bit as to what counts as 'novel.' So, clerk x, could you please deny the patent on your desk for Claratin E. Thanx, xoxo, your noble leader."

    1. Re:Isn't this easily solved by jedidiah · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think they just did that and someone successfully sued to prevent it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Isn't this easily solved by Andy+Dodd · · Score: 2, Informative

      The root problem with the USPTO is that while they make a LOT of money for the government in terms of patent fees, that money goes to a "generic" budget pool, from which the USPTO has to fight for a chunk just like everyone else.

      Guess what? They usually get shafted.

      The end result is that patent examiners are overworked due to understaffing and they are also vastly underpaid. There's a huge amount of churn at the USPTO (I know of two people that started there with a desire to become IP lawyers eventually and since then have gotten as far away from it as they can - in fact one completely left engineering and started a catering business!)

      Without giving the USPTO more funding to retain employees (instead of driving them so far away they leave their area of expertise completely), the quality of the examination process will continue to suffer.

      The USPTO would be vastly improved if licensing fees were reduced significantly but all income went back into the USPTO, but that'll never happen because the people who make the decisions are those who have pet programs leeching off of the USPTO's income.

      --
      retrorocket.o not found, launch anyway?
    3. Re:Isn't this easily solved by NeutronCowboy · · Score: 1

      Actually, the problem would get fixed by assessing performance of patent clerks by how many patents they deny, and how many of those patent denials stay up under revision. As it is, patent clerks have as a performance metric how many patents they approve. Of course a patent clerk making is therefore going to approve anything that hasn't been patented before.

      If the head of the USPTO wants to fix the quality of patents, he can start by fixing the idiotic ways by which he measures the performance of his employees.

      --
      Those who can, do. Those who can't, sue.
    4. Re:Isn't this easily solved by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      The USPTO would be vastly improved if licensing fees were reduced significantly

      How does reducing patent fees improve patents? If anything I'd think it would make it worse. Reduce the fees would mean more patent applications could be filed for the same price thus in increasing the work load.

      but all income went back into the USPTO,

      Making the patent office just another business and maximize revenue by maximizing patent applications.

      Falcon
  10. increase the fees dramatically by jeske · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Patent fees have simply not kept pace with the value of IP and innovation. If they put them on a pricing schedule that goes up over time, and start them at $300k today, we'll see a dramatic reduction in frivilous patents.

    Even more radical would be to place limits on the collectible licensing fees based on the original filing fee. This would encourage some companies to pay more for their patents, in order to create a greater enforcement cap, but would cause them to do so only because they believed the patents to be defensible.

    1. Re:increase the fees dramatically by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      How in in the bloody hell is the guy who invented a process of, say, turning rocks into edible food, who only can work part time at a McDonalds because he was hit by a drunk driver, going to affod $300k to patent it?

      A steeper price is NOT the answer. As a matter of fact, all of a sudden, you pretty much just made it so only rich types CAN get a patent.

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    2. Re:increase the fees dramatically by SlickNic · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I agree with the above although there should be an exception to allow an individual to gain a patent relatively inexpensively but it can't be used by a company without paying the full patent price and being subject to licensing fees if they want to keep the patent beyond a set number of years (say 3 years). There also needs to be a stipulation requiring someone that has created a patent to have a product within a set amount of time. If someone creates the actual product before the person with the original patent there should be a limit on royalties (say less than 1% of net profit) and they are both given full rights to sell the devices.

      --
      Saying "all faiths are equivalent" is akin to saying "all drugs are the same".
    3. Re:increase the fees dramatically by jedidiah · · Score: 1, Insightful

      If the poor guy can't bring the idea to market, he shouldn't be in a position to prevent others.

      Patents are for OUR benefit, not "the little guy" and not "the faceless corporation".

      Patents are meant to keep the really good ideas from forever remaining trade secrets.
      They aren't meant to make anyone rich. They aren't meant to create any petty monopolies.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    4. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Danse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If the poor guy can't bring the idea to market, he shouldn't be in a position to prevent others. If he comes up with the idea, he should still be able to patent it, and then he could sell it to someone that can implement it. Pricing him out of being able to patent it just ensure that he won't bother even publishing the idea in the first place, or even telling anyone about it since they'll probably just screw him over on it. Now I do think that if you own a patent, then you should have to bring a working implementation to market within a reasonable amount of time in order to keep that patent. If not, you're just obstructing progress.
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    5. Re:increase the fees dramatically by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So in order to avoid a highly unlikely boundary condition, you want to screw every
      thing up for the typical case. It's thinking like this that creates such f*cked up
      laws and policies in general. People fixate on some "important" boundary condition,
      rush off to mutilate policies in order to address that and then end up hit in the
      face with heinous unintended consequences.

      It's probably well worth the risk and the likely consquences of ignoring the oddball
      possibility like this to ensure that the system in general isn't tragically broken.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    6. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Danse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's probably well worth the risk and the likely consquences of ignoring the oddball
      possibility like this to ensure that the system in general isn't tragically broken. What "oddball possibility" are you referring to? The possibility that someone other than a multinational corporation might have a good idea? The possibility that a corporation would screw someone over and take their unpatented idea? What exactly are you saying?
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    7. Re:increase the fees dramatically by berashith · · Score: 1


      What if there is the odd instance of someone with only $300k to spend. They can get a patent and not go to market, or go to market and get screwed by someone able to quickly copy the idea.

      A lower value to the application and higher barriers to getting the patent approved solves this issue much better than a high price and low quality in the application.

    8. Re:increase the fees dramatically by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What he is saying is typical elitism disguised in a red cape. Imagine you had one of these guys in your IT department, and tired of the spam, he comes up with a ingenious way of filtering out a lot of the crap... a perl script that uses regex to validate that the email address in the from field before being delivered. His logic being "If the script rejects it, they must be shady anyway, so I don't even care". But an intelligent person can pick out the fallacy a mile away. If the script is makes wrong assumptions, or flat out wrong, you get perfectly legitimate people getting rejected, all because someone put up an artificial boundary that ultimately serves no functional purpose, because you aren't even addressing the problem... only a possible symptom.

      That is what the guy is saying. Make the cost of a patent really high, because if people were able enough to come up with a patentable idea, they should already be successful enough to be ale to afford the cost.

      Brilliant...

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    9. Re:increase the fees dramatically by sm62704 · · Score: 1

      " (Score:5, Interesting)"

      Yeah, like a car wreck is interesting. The problem isn't that patents aren't expensive enough, your big corporations that can afford patents can afford any sum. The problems are severalfold, and making patents more expensive will only make the problem worse, not better.

      Who gave Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, Oprah Winfrey and Donald Trump mod points anyway? I thought this was a nerd site, not a neocon economics site!

      Never fear, the metamods will correct the problem.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    10. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      epic fail

      The Constitution (Article 1, Section 8, Clause 8) empowers Congress: "To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries."

      patents are EXACTLY for the little guy. At the time the patent system was set up, states would often unilaterally grant monopolies to various individuals or groups, without regard to the common good. They are artificial market protections for inventors who otherwise would have their invention stolen by larger interests and have no reason to invent things in the first place. Good try though.

    11. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You aren't BUYING the idea. Why should the fee associated with patenting something have anything to do with the value of the IP? As far as I see the cost is too much, how much does it cost to dress a monkey up as a clerk and have it stamp everything approved?

      The problem of course is the lax acceptance standards; which allow people (or "evil corporations", if you prefer) to file for obvious patents cheaply and with an expected profit after the following law suits.

    12. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 1

      If the poor guy can't bring the idea to market, he shouldn't be in a position to prevent others. If he comes up with the idea, he should still be able to patent it, and then he could sell it to someone that can implement it. Pricing him out of being able to patent it just ensure that he won't bother even publishing the idea in the first place, or even telling anyone about it since they'll probably just screw him over on it. Now I do think that if you own a patent, then you should have to bring a working implementation to market within a reasonable amount of time in order to keep that patent. If not, you're just obstructing progress. Ideas are worthless, and letting someone claim a monopoly on an idea is rather dumb. Working out all the details (the stuff needed to be able to provide a working model, plus the stuff needed to be make it mass producable) is the hard part, and is what's important.
    13. Re:increase the fees dramatically by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      I thought this was a nerd site, not a neocon economics site! A lot of regular Slashdot readers seem to get their economics from Libertarian ideas, or magical pixie land as it is known to most economists.
      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    14. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Danse · · Score: 1

      Ideas are worthless, and letting someone claim a monopoly on an idea is rather dumb. Working out all the details (the stuff needed to be able to provide a working model, plus the stuff needed to be make it mass producable) is the hard part, and is what's important. Ideas are not worthless. Most innovations begin as ideas (although some begin as accidents). Modern innovations often require a large capital investment in order to produce anything that could be brought to market. If we didn't allow people to patent ideas, then the only ones capable of patenting these sorts of innovations would be large corporations. So how do the ideas get from the inventor to the organization with the capital to invest without the protection of a patent?

      Shutting out small inventors and those who lack the funding to fully develop an idea into a marketable product is not the answer.
      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    15. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 1

      Ideas are not worthless. I mean, in the sense that air is worthless. Ideas may be necessary, but they're also everywhere. The problem is not finding ideas, it's putting in the work to develop the ideas enough to tell the good from the bad.

      Shutting out small inventors and those who lack the funding to fully develop an idea into a marketable product is not the answer. There is a rather large difference between a working prototype and a marketable product. Models don't have to be pretty, or durable, or easily mass-producable. They just have to work.
    16. Re:increase the fees dramatically by sm62704 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's true, and I may be wrong but I think most of the "Libertarians" here are more socail libertarians rather than economic libertarins. Anyone middle class or below who thinks government regulation of corporations is a bad thing is ignorantly brainwashed.

      As to the actual subject, it already costs way too much for a patent. The world lost yet another device a couple of weeks ago when I had to keep my head down after a vitrectomy. If a patent was twenty bucks and fill in a form, the device would be on the market in a couple of years.

      But as there's no way in hell I'm giving away ideas for free to big rich corporations who always scream about their intellectual "property" the world is just going to have to make do without it.

      --
      mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
    17. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Danse · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'm inclined to agree with the prototype requirement. That's the way it used to be, and I don't think it would be terrible to return to that state. If that would also involve the banning of "business method" patents, all the better. I think that software patents should probably also be done away with, as they can be covered by copyright, and the PTO has shown a complete lack of competence in determining what is novel in reviewing such patents.

      --
      It's not enough to bash in heads, you've got to bash in minds. - Captain Hammer
    18. Re:increase the fees dramatically by leabre · · Score: 1

      Patent fees have simply not kept pace with the value of IP and innovation. If they put them on a pricing schedule that goes up over time, and start them at $300k today, we'll see a dramatic reduction in frivilous patents.

      You'll also see a dramatic decrease of perfectly valid patents, also, especially by the little guy that the Slashdotters are so poised to point out the system was originally supposed to protect. If the little guy needed $500k to get 6 patents and hasn't the money, investors, or means to pay up (before getting investors), then it won't be a friendly place for little guys. It is arguably friendlier to little guys today than if a patent cost $300k.

      Thanks,
      Leabre

    19. Re:increase the fees dramatically by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Patent fees have simply not kept pace with the value of IP and innovation. If they put them on a pricing schedule that goes up over time, and start them at $300k today, we'll see a dramatic reduction in frivilous patents.

      Yea, raise patent fees so that small inventors will be shut out. NOT!

      Falcon
    20. Re:increase the fees dramatically by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      A lot of regular Slashdot readers seem to get their economics from Libertarian ideas, or magical pixie land as it is known to most economists.

      Name one economist who thinks Libertarian ideas that come from "magical pixie land". In making such a request I should provide aqn example of one economist that disagrees. Nobel Prize winner Milton Friedman disagrees with you. Friedman probably has been the most influential Libertarian of the 20th century. Imagine than, an Economist, Nobel Prize winner, and a Libertarian.

      Falcon
    21. Re:increase the fees dramatically by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      If the poor guy can't bring the idea to market, he shouldn't be in a position to prevent others.

      While true raising patent costs can prevent an inventor from bringing an invention to market.

      Patents are for OUR benefit, not "the little guy" and not "the faceless corporation".

      Patents bring benefits by allowing anyone who comes up with an invention to have for a limited tyme a monopoly on the invention.

      Falcon
    22. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

      Shutting out small inventors and those who lack the funding to fully develop an idea into a marketable product is not the answer. There is a rather large difference between a working prototype and a marketable product. Models don't have to be pretty, or durable, or easily mass-producable. They just have to work. They can also be expensive and time-consuming to produce. Possibly too much so.

      An inventor may not have skills in some areas that are necessary for the actual construction of the prototype, yet (s)he knows that only ordinary skills in those areas would be sufficient to produce a prototype, given the inventor's own supervision.

      Once the patent is granted, (s)he has a better carrot with which to attract financing for the development.

      Regards, Non.
      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
    23. Re:increase the fees dramatically by Hognoxious · · Score: 1

      If the poor guy can't bring the idea to market, he shouldn't be in a position to prevent others.
      I agree. Only people who have inherited huge amounts of wealth, constantly take their clothes off, are good at humming catchy tunes or being tall and throwing a ball through a hole are even worth listening to.

      The idea that peasants could have any worthwhile ideas - how preposterous! These upstarts should learn their place and stay in it.
      --
      Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
  11. No Silver Bullet by xfmr_expert · · Score: 2, Insightful

    There are a lot of problems with today's patent system, but there is no single "silver bullet" solution to solve them all. Disbanding the patent system altogether will never happen. It does have a noble purpose when applied properly. However, it has become a cash cow whereby companies patent every single thought of their employees in order to build a "patent portfolio". The first obvious fix is to define business method patents and ban them. They are ridiculous. How that is done, I don't know. Another thought is to develop some sort of Devil's Advocate system, where an examiner is assigned to each patent who sole job is to disprove an applications patentability. A final thought is to somehow tax patents as though they were the valued assets they are represented to be. Taxing patents on transfer is easy enough, and may be done already (although this tax should be upped, if the original inventor isn't using the patent). There are ways to make things better. It just takes some thoughtful debate and a willingness of the politicians and bureaucrats to effect some change. Enough "big corporations" are getting burnt by patents to provide some momentum, I hope.

    1. Re:No Silver Bullet by Corpuscavernosa · · Score: 4, Interesting
      I agree that there is no silver bullet but the quality of examiner IMHO is the biggest hurdle. You can become an examiner directly out of college. You then become overworked, pressured, and required to turn out a caselaod of applications. The USPTO has horrible turnover with the average being approximately 3 years (I have a few friends who became examiners and they said that was the average). 3 years doesn't allow anyone to become a real subject matter expert.

      You've got kids dealing with really high-level stuff in a lot of cases. Optics, physics, biotech. No wonder it's easier for companies to push shitty applications through.

      --
      We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
    2. Re:No Silver Bullet by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 2, Interesting
      I understand that corporations tend to submit overwhelmingly large applications that require two lawyers and a forklift to process (the lwayers are dunnage for the pallet, of course).

      I've experienced a similar phenomenon in contracting relationships where documentation is dumped in large quantities at the last minute with the intent of overwhelming the reviewing system. Apparently it works at the USPTO as well.

      --
      Invenio via vel creo
    3. Re:No Silver Bullet by Gutboy · · Score: 1

      If they would open patent examination offices in places other than DC, I'd bet they'd get a lot better examiners. Who wants to live in one of the most expensive places in the US, or have a 4 hour commute just so you can afford to live in something other than a hovel?

    4. Re:No Silver Bullet by Corpuscavernosa · · Score: 1

      I don't know of the current state of the plan, but there was news awhile ago that they are opening a second office Denver. LINK

      --
      We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
    5. Re:No Silver Bullet by Khelder · · Score: 1

      A big problem with getting good examiners is compensation. I was not out to get the absolute highest paying job possible, but when I could get *twice* what the USPTO was offering working in industry, it was not a hard decision (esp. since the cost of living in the DC area is pretty darned high).

      If they really want to improve patent quality, they should pay more, which would probably require either A) that the USPTO no longer have to pay for itself via fees or B) raise fees so high that almost no individual could get one.

  12. Huh ? by jfclavette · · Score: 1

    Patents were only supposed to be used in special cases. The fact that they've become the norm, rather than the exception is a problem[1], and it doesn't seem like anyone is seriously looking into fixing that. [1]Citation Needed.

    1. Re:Huh ? by Champ · · Score: 1

      I can provide a citation suggesting the contrary.

      The U.S. patent system is authorized by Article I, Section 8 of the U.S. Constitution. That doesn't sound like something that would be reserved for "special cases."

  13. Re:Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred .. by Floritard · · Score: 1

    Huh? No, what the fuck are you... I'm not... We're talking about unchecked aggression here, dude.

  14. Overlooking Economic barriers by Bombula · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It's fine to condemn frivolous patent trolling, but one important part of the reality is that it is often enormously expensive to implement a genuinely innovative idea. Innovation therefore only goes into production when huge sums of money support the organization behind it, and this is profoundly stifling of individual invention and creativity. Individuals with good ideas often cannot realize any rewards for their ideas except through patenting and litigation, since it is notoriously difficult for a individual inventor or innovator to secure a licensing agreement with a producer ahead of the fact. In absence of that option, post-facto licensing in the form of patent lawsuits is the only alternative. It sucks, but that's the way it is. If large companies were more willing to honestly license good ideas rather than attempt to circvumvent them or win wars of attrition against individuals through protracted litigation, there would be far less need of patent trolling.

    --
    A-Bomb
    1. Re:Overlooking Economic barriers by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A patent STOPS innovation for 17 years.

      Any granted patent should be at least as valuable as the social
      cost of that disruption.

      They're not supposed to be about how expensive it was
      to invent something but whether or not the invention
      is suitably novel. It's not meant to be a cash cow or
      a means to make up for R&D expenditures.

      BS patents do far more harm than "lost R&D costs".

      Ideally a patent isn't just the end of a marathon,
      it's the end of a marathon where none of the other
      contestants were able to even cross the finish line.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Overlooking Economic barriers by mmurphy000 · · Score: 1

      but one important part of the reality is that it is often enormously expensive to implement a genuinely innovative idea.

      And your proof of this assertion is...what, exactly?

      Certain ideas, innovative or not, will be intrinsically expensive due to their context. An innovative design for a nuclear power plant, for example, will be "enormously expensive to implement", not because the idea is innovative, but because nuclear power plants are "enormously expensive to implement".

      However, there is nothing intrinsic to innovative ideas that make the "enormously expensive to implement". Take Crocs(TM). On the surface, these shoes must be innovative, since there are patents on them (whether those patents make any sense, of course, is a whole 'nuther matter). But it's not like they had to go immediately from patent to worldwide distribution. Instead, they started slowly, a few hundred pairs at a time, until they got the opportunity for wider distribution.

      I would love to see a study that takes a look at, say, a few hundred patents, sees which ones were converted into products, and of those, which ones were "enormously expensive to implement".

      Innovation therefore only goes into production when huge sums of money support the organization behind it

      And your proof of this assertion is...what, exactly?

      Remember: things do exist that aren't in your local Wal-Mart. You don't have to have worldwide distribution to create a product. You don't have to outsource to China to get started. Trying to achieve worldwide distribution can be expensive, and trying to get into Wal-Mart can be expensive. But those are business decisions irrespective of the "good ideas".

      Individuals with good ideas often cannot realize any rewards for their ideas except through patenting and litigation, since it is notoriously difficult for a individual inventor or innovator to secure a licensing agreement with a producer ahead of the fact.

      And your proof of this assertion is...what, exactly?

      How about, say, patenting and licensing said patents?

      You seem to be under the assumption that inventors are duty-bound to aim to be billionaires and therefore all inventors act accordingly.

      In absence of that option, post-facto licensing in the form of patent lawsuits is the only alternative.

      I won't even bother asking for your proof of this assertion, as it's obvious nonsense. Pretty much the definition of "patent troll" is a firm who (gasp!) licenses patents and then sues. If patent trolls exist fitting this definition, then "post-facto licensing" of patents by (gasp!) licensing patents is apparently another alternative.

    3. Re:Overlooking Economic barriers by Bombula · · Score: 1
      You're doing a lot of barking up the wrong trees. Also, I'm guessing from your comments that you've not got any experience with manufacturing start-ups.

      Starting a business based on a patentable idea largely means you're making something, i.e. you're not providing a service (since services lack the attribute of property to make them protectable). Starting a new, non-service-based business is very expensive relative to the median income of a 4-person family in the United States. It is not completely impossible to start a cottage-industry manufacturing business out of your home and grow - I have done it myself - but it is extremely difficult, and it's all the more difficult to compete with large companies whose relative costs are four or five orders of magnitude lower. As an obvious example, patent filing fees for my small business represented 2 months' net income, whereas the same patent fees represent perhaps 2 seconds of net income for Google. Google might be a nice company willing to treat patent-holders fairly, license good ideas in good faith, and settle disputes quickly and responsibly. But if so, Google is the one shark in the sea that is a vegetarian. The burden of proof, I'm afraid, is on you to show that large corporations do readily license patents from individuals in good faith. In my experience, as I said in my previous post, they go to great lengths to circumvent patents and if a dispute is made they go to equally great lengths to protract the litigation process in an effort to defeat the IP owner in financial terms.

      If you cannot see how and why this stifles individual innovation and gives an advantage to large organizations, well, the conversation is basically over before it has begun.

      --
      A-Bomb
    4. Re:Overlooking Economic barriers by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not where software is concerned. And even then, look at the hardware side. Two men and a garage baby.

  15. Screws the little guy by everphilski · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If they put them on a pricing schedule that goes up over time, and start them at $300k today, we'll see a dramatic reduction in frivilous patents.

    This only screws the little guy over and ensures that bigger corporations will keep patenting. 300k to a Microsoft, IBM or pharmaceutical company is small fries. To a small business owner or full-time dreamer like me, it breaks the bank. It's an artificial barrier to entry that does not address the real problems.

    The threshold should not be financial, it should be by virtue of technical merit. Set the bar higher, the terms shorter, etc. Have a maximum duration over which a patent owner must implement said patent, or forfeit it, similar to enforcement of trademarks (see trademark dilution). It's not precisely the same concept, but I think it's a virtuous idea.

    1. Re:Screws the little guy by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      How about "When people fight tooth and nail instead of co-operating, everything gets all fucked up."

      The problem is the capitalist structure.

      Patents were originally created to overcome an inherent and nasty flaw in the capitalist structure.

      They were a band-aid, trying to fix the fact that the structure creates an inherent motivation to be the biggest fish in the pond by killing other fish rather than trying to be the best fish you can be and celebrating the success of your neighbour as he enriches your community.

      As we scale up, the "eat your neighbour" systems problems become worse.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:Screws the little guy by Speare · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How about charging proportionally to the full liquid (salary) and equity (stock) income of the CEO, when the patent is to be held by the corporation? Any time the patent is transferred to a new holder, the full fee should be calculated and paid again. I think this stone could kill a few birds. Outrageous executive pay would be penalized, and many small companies and individuals could hold onto more patents.

      --
      [ .sig file not found ]
    3. Re:Screws the little guy by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This only screws the little guy over and ensures that bigger corporations will keep patenting. 300k to a Microsoft, IBM or pharmaceutical company is small fries. To a small business owner or full-time dreamer like me, it breaks the bank.

      Should we even care about small time dreamers anymore? Should the entire process of patent reform have to grind to a halt in order to allow "Joe Inventor", if he exists or indeed ever existed, to still play the patent lottery game? $300,000 dollars per patent seems just fine by me.

      Better yet, simply implement a patent tax. It's intellectual "property" after all, so why not tax it?
      --
      May the Maths Be with you!
    4. Re:Screws the little guy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And suddenly there's a lots of small companies who pay their CEO $1/year whose only assets are some patents, and whose only revenue is the fee they charge that one company (who happens to own said small company) to license their patents. Amazingly said revenue is exactly the same as their costs, consisting mostly of the interest payments on the loan they got from their owning company in order to hire some lawyers to sue everyone else...

    5. Re:Screws the little guy by everphilski · · Score: 1

      Should we even care about small time dreamers anymore?

      Because essentially you are saying that only people with financial connections should have the protection a patent offers. You are saying patents should be tied to wealth, not ideas. I can't agree with that.

      Better yet, simply implement a patent tax. It's intellectual "property" after all, so why not tax it?

      As soon as you start taxing MMORPG's and website owners for their content. It is property after all. Why not tax it.

    6. Re:Screws the little guy by bar-agent · · Score: 1

      Should we even care about small time dreamers anymore? Should the entire process of patent reform have to grind to a halt in order to allow "Joe Inventor", if he exists or indeed ever existed, to still play the patent lottery game? $300,000 dollars per patent seems just fine by me.

      Yes, there are still useful patents and techniques put out by the little guys and lone inventors, especially ones that can be used in the third world. Here a two I found from a quick Google search, and I remember another one that involves a special buried clay pot.

      http://researchmag.asu.edu/stories/dewey.html
      http://www.acfnewsource.org/science/3rd_world_invention.html

      --
      i'd hit it so hard, if you pulled me out you'd be the king of britain [bash.org]
  16. Re:Twofo Live by a+whoabot · · Score: 1

    You guys realize that this Twofo Live link doesn't take you to Goatse but takes you to some "Warwick filesharing" thing. I'm actually not really sure why it is always posted.

  17. Not true at all. by No2Gates · · Score: 2, Funny

    I tried to apply for a patent for a emergency CD ejector, made from a straightened paper clip. They turned me down.

    --
    Every time you call tech support, a little kitten dies.
  18. Re:Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred .. by Adambomb · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Calmer than you are.

    --
    Ice Cream has no bones.
  19. It's just another government agency by InlawBiker · · Score: 1
    Like all of the other government agencies they're woefully underfunded. All they can really do is grant the patents and let the courts work out the differences.

    So long as corporations are using patents as monopoly door-stops then this is probably the only way it will work, unless something changes. A single multinational corporation has more legal brainpower than the patent office, how can the US Patent Office possibly deal with ALL of them at once?

  20. The issued patents aren't the whole problem by dtmos · · Score: 3, Interesting

    As we have discussed before, there is an equally significant problem with patent applications that are improperly rejected. Since issued patents enable one to obtain funding to bring new technology to market, this is as least as serious a problem for our society as the more well-known "junk patent" problem.

    1. Re:The issued patents aren't the whole problem by theantipop · · Score: 2, Interesting

      This eetimes editorial is humorous on a couple of accounts. First, the my patent is being rejected but of course it's not my fault act is cute, but I thought I stopped playing that routine when I got to grade school. Second, it is impossible to take someone's word on something like this when you are boiling down subject matter to legal terms in the claims of an application. You can have the most ground-breaking invention, but if your claims are so broad that you would be infringing on a toaster a good examiner isn't going to have it.

    2. Re:The issued patents aren't the whole problem by Wavebreak · · Score: 1

      Not commenting on if this is a problem or not since I simply don't know, but the guy in the linked article works for a company called Parimics Inc. which, from what research I did, seems like a particularly blatant patent troll. Their site is rife with terminology that reads very much like an attempt to obfuscate the fact. Hard to determine if they do in fact do useful research and developement from the limited information available, but if my initial impression is correct then this is actually a case of the patent office working *well*, and this company is pissed that they can't get their frivolous patent applications through.

      --
      Nobody expects the British Columbia Human Rights Tribunal.
  21. Re:Twofo Live by Corpuscavernosa · · Score: 1

    Well, after seeing it once (ok fine, 7x), I'm pretty careful what I click!

    --
    We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
  22. Re:Twofo Live by everphilski · · Score: 1, Funny

    Well, after seeing it once (ok fine, 7x), I'm pretty careful what I click!

    Fool me twice, shame on you.
    Fool me thrice, shame on you.
    Fool me four times, shame on you.
    Fool me five times, shame on you.
    Fool me six times, shame on you.
    Fool me seven times, shame on you.
    But dammit, fool me eight times, and shame on me! :)

  23. An industry built on a problem by erroneus · · Score: 1

    The "IP Industry" is built strong upon the problems with current IP policies and procedures among other problems. Now that the problems have been identified and commercially exploited on an extremely wide scale, entire business operations and business models have been formed to exploit them. So now these extremely profitable activities are paying legislators to keep the laws which enable them in place and to create even more exploitable laws to boost their profits.

    Does anyone think that these problems with Copyrights, Trademarks and Patents will be corrected without a fight? Hell no! And it will take an economic meltdown in the U.S. for anyone to be persuaded to make anything change in the future. There had to be Enron before things changed. There had to be the Sub-Prime lending crisis before things were changed. There will have to be some sort of major issue with Patents and other IP before anything is changed, otherwise, politicians are perfectly happy to enable the status quo.

    1. Re:An industry built on a problem by DKP · · Score: 1

      wha do you call the music industry going after people who don't even know what a P2P network is let alone how to use one.

    2. Re:An industry built on a problem by erroneus · · Score: 1

      Piracy in the most classical sense. They seek out and attack anyone who looks weak, defenseless and who might yield money, or death or both.

  24. I have a simple solution by nguy · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Techdirt is reporting that Jon Dudas, head of the US Patent Office, is lamenting the continuing quality drop in patent submissions.

    Here's an idea: reject them. Eventually, people will get the message.

    If you keep accepting them, you'll keep getting more.

    1. Re:I have a simple solution by zQuo · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree, and I have a simple change to make it happen. Just make it so the Patent Office is rewarded more for rejecting patents than accepting patents.
      Patent applicants put up a larger fee that assumes that the patent will be rejected. If the patent is accepted, the applicant gets a refund. If the patent is rejected, the applicant gets no refund, but they do get a review of how the patent is deficient or unclear and needs to be revised.

      Two of my friends who are examiners in the PTO. They tell me it takes almost 4-5x the time to reject a patent as to pass one. Job ratings are based on the number of patents processed. What would *you* do in that situation? Based upon the work involved, a rejected patent applications should cost 5x more than an accepted application. The PTO prizes itself for being the *only* agency in the government that makes money and runs in the black. The examiners are proud of that. You just have to make a small change in the incentive scheme for examiners so that the effort they spend on rejections are rewarded also; we'd get fewer, clearer, more relevant patents.

    2. Re:I have a simple solution by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      Patent applicants put up a larger fee that assumes that the patent will be rejected. If the patent is accepted, the applicant gets a refund. If the patent is rejected, the applicant gets no refund, but they do get a review of how the patent is deficient or unclear and needs to be revised.

      This isn't a solution, it will only make it worse. Raising patent application fees will only shut out the inventors who don't have the money to file for a patent.

      Falcon
    3. Re:I have a simple solution by zQuo · · Score: 1

      Well, yes, it's true that larger fees to improve patent rejections do not help impoverished inventors. But it does help improve the quality of all patents in general, which is a good thing. Impoverished inventors face *a lot* more problems than application fees. They really can't use their patents without money to back them up or by becoming patent trolls with nothing to lose.

      The patent system has not traditionally favored the individual poor inventor. Stories are rampant about how a company stole/violated/infringed on some poor guy who invented some miracle device. You really need money backing to give the patent any teeth in order to survive the onslaught of court cases and patent variations that come.

      What's new in patent history is the recent prevalence of patent trolls who impede companies making real products. This only has happened because of recent splurge of "obvious" patents. I personally know an individual inventor who is a successful patent troll. Lack of money is not a problem if you want to be a patent troll, all you need is a patent on a fairly obvious technology widely used. You send legal notices to big companies to pay you for some obvious patent, and ask them to pay a minor fee, say, $300+ for a lifetime license. Then you go after the smaller companies for $1000+, citing that the bigger companies ponied up already. Note that the smaller companies pay more, because they have less resources to defend themselves. Companies pay because it is cheaper than legal fees. This is bad.

      That is the problem better rejection rates would solve. Higher patent rejection fees will get more reasonable reviews of patents. That will improve the quality of patents, as well make the business model of patent trolls less viable.

  25. Slightly different than that. by khasim · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Actually, they are for "the little guy" and they do create "petty monopolies".

    They were designed to create an environment where an inventor could create something and market it for a set number of years with our government providing protection from competition. In exchange for that, the invention would be free to be copied when the patent expired.

    Now, patents are used to BLOCK development. Because you can get a broad patent on ANYTHING, just about EVERYTHING is being patented.

    So Company-A is working on a new invention. Company-B hears about the work and rushes out to get a patent on a broad "process" that covers (but does not specify) the invention that Company-A is working on.

    Now Company-A owes money to Company-B for an invention that Company-B never produced.

    Fuck that. Just have the patent office require a WORKING, PHYSICAL model of the invention PRIOR to accepting the patent application. That's how is used to be.

    Of course, this would kill all the software "patents" and "practices" patents and so forth. Which I think is a good thing(tm).

    1. Re:Slightly different than that. by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Dude, they're not "for the little guy". The parent was right.

      Patents were crafted by people who accept capitalism and competition as inviolate principles, and wish to prevent the sort of secret hoarding that defined the guilds of the Mercantile age.

      There was once a time where if you wanted to learn secret knowledge, you had to join a secret society. If you were in the secret society, you couldn't leave and practice or share, because the law prevented you from doing so.

      The point of patents was to force secret societies to reveal their secrets if they wanted the law to continue to validate and enforce their control. If you didn't reveal the secret, you couldn't ask the cops to go shut that guy down, but if you did, you could.

      This would be better realized in the modern age by making transparency of process a requirement to enter the market, period. We already have safety inspectors whose approval you must win to enter the market, so it's not like this would be a novel invasion of privacy or freedom that didn't exist before.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    2. Re:Slightly different than that. by meatmanek · · Score: 1

      Requiring the inventor to show a physical model of an invention could also screw the little guy, who can't build as quickly.

      Hypothetical example:

      Littleguy, LLC, with 10 employees, begins work on a new gasoline engine with a theoretical 95% efficiency. They have worked out the physics and chemistry behind it and understand the processes they must exploit to make it work. However, to make the engine work it needs to be tuned nearly perfectly, something that takes tedious experimentation and testing.

      Littleguy attempts to patent their engine, but are turned away because they don't have a working prototype.

      Bob, an engineer for Cannibalistic Business Practices, Inc. (which has 10,000 employees) is a college buddy of one of the Littleguy workers. They have a dinner conversation about Littleguy's new engine. Bob tells his boss about the idea, the boss goes to the head of R+D, and they begin building and testing models of the engine. Because CBP has thousands of employees at their disposal, they find the ideal setup quickly, and then patent it.

      Yes, the Littleguy employee should have kept his mouth shut, but this situation would only happen if a prototype is required.

    3. Re:Slightly different than that. by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

      ... This would be better realized in the modern age by making transparency of process a requirement to enter the market, period. We already have safety inspectors whose approval you must win to enter the market, so it's not like this would be a novel invasion of privacy or freedom that didn't exist before. Ahem... The safety inspectors you mention represent an additional barrier to entering the market.
      What if you can't convince the safety people of the day that your idea is not too dangerous?
      Would that mean you wouldn't get to keep your patent?

      Regards, Non.
      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
    4. Re:Slightly different than that. by ShieldW0lf · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking to me like it's my new idea for? There have been safety inspectors acting as a barrier to keep dangerous goods off the market since before I was born. Go ask them about how much of a barrier they impose.

      I don't propose anyone should get patents. I would say, reveal your process, or you are flat out not allowed to sell anything to anyone. If you're caught, your property is seized and you go to jail, the same as if you sold cars or drugs or food without passing safety inspections right now.

      --
      -1 Uncomfortable Truth
    5. Re:Slightly different than that. by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

      What the hell are you talking to me like it's my new idea for? There have been safety inspectors acting as a barrier to keep dangerous goods off the market since before I was born. Go ask them about how much of a barrier they impose.

      Okay, I agree that unsafe products should be controlled, that's not the point I'm trying to make.

      I don't propose anyone should get patents.

      So what mechanism do you propose to replace the patent system? We have to get from here and now to a better location in spacetime, and it's got to be done in increments.

      I would say, reveal your process, or you are flat out not allowed to sell anything to anyone. If you're caught, your property is seized and you go to jail, the same as if you sold cars or drugs or food without passing safety inspections right now.

      Then what's to stop the big guys with most of the resources from stealing the little guys' ideas and laughing all the way to the bank?

      To quote from The Simpsons: "Unexplained fires are a matter for the courts." How much did it cost the car companies after all those vehicles caught fire? I don't know, and I wouldn't be surprised if it were still before the courts. Is/Are the car compan{y|ies} now out of business? I think not.

      To quote Jesse Ventura "You can't legislate morality." I know that the 'moral majority' mostly disagree, but I've looked at a whole bunch of quotes from Ventura, at

      http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/j/jesseventu169372.html

      and I agree with the vast majority of them. I've skimmed his Wikipedia page as well:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesse_Ventura

      One serious dude, even if you're not into wrestling. (I'm not.)

      Just assuming you can't legislate morality for a while, how does it apply here? Well it has to do with mechanism design - the game theory type:

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mechanism_design

      Basically, the bureaucracy - in this case the patent office - is set up in accordance with, and to carry out the functions of a particular piece of legislation - probably called something like The Patent Act (whatever year) as amended to the current date. It's all a big game to big business who are supposed to maximise shareholder value. They interact with the bureaucracy, and the judiciary and lobby the legislature in order to get the rules of the game to work in their favour.

      At the moment, the criterion for 'obviousness', in particular, is being almost ignored, and AFAICT, this is causing a lot of bad patents to be issued. The criterion, I think, reads that an invention must not be obvious to someone 'skilled in the art', or at least that's what I've read in the Oz patent docs; the US should be similar. In my opinion we need a better definition of 'skilled in the art'.

      What we need is a change to the effective rules of the game, in order to bring about a better outcome. A fairer outcome.

      You can view it as a multidimensional optimisation problem (getting the greatest good for the greatest number, for example) but I won't go into the details of that aspect here and now.

      You can change the rules of the game with a change in the law - either explicitly through legislation or implicitly as a result of the outcome of a case that goes before the courts and sets a precedent. I've read here thet the tax office over there tried to stem the tide of bad patents but got overturned in the courts.

      The mechanism cannot legislate for non-greedy (moral) behaviour on the part of corporations, it can only place restrictions on how they are permitted to play the game without legal penalties and the associated bad publicity.

      So what do you want to happen?
      More importantly, how do we tweak the system so that we get a better outcome?
      How do we get

      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
    6. Re:Slightly different than that. by Nontagonist · · Score: 1
      I wrote:

      How's a poor blind person supposed to construct a prototype and then keep it secret and secure? I know the one year rule helps here, but the clock starts ticking, and if (s)he can't get it done in time they may be short on luck. Correction: make that "but the clock starts ticking when the thing becomes public knowledge, and if (s)he can't get the patent application in in time they may be short on luck."

      Regards, Non.
      --
      There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
  26. Revenue Generation by D.A.+Zollinger · · Score: 1

    As long as the patent office views itself as a revenue generating arm of the United States government, these problems will at best persist, and at worse intensify.

    --
    I haven't lost my mind!
    It is backed up on disk...somewhere...
  27. Hold on there josie by zappepcs · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Unfortunately, while this problem is finally getting the attention it deserves, the changes being implemented don't seem to be offering the correct solution. - emphasis mine

    Who the hell thinks it's really getting the attention it deserves? Not me. When 'what is your position on patent reform?' becomes a more important question than what color toilet paper Obama uses, or who wears a flag pin, or what happened on some reality tv show, THEN it's getting the attention it deserves.

    The USPTO is broken. It's a system that worked quite well back when the phonograph was considered an expensive laboratory toy that would never be of use on the commercial market.

    If only they would go to some kind of system like a social news aggregation site, whose patrons were engineers, scientists etc. and other professions and titles that exclude anyone selling ID as science. Then as a last step before granting the patent it would get sort of peer reviewed. IMO that would stop BS patents and trolls can be stopped by changing requirements of patent holders to something like radio spectrum licenses. If you don't use it, you lose it. If you sue someone with the patent and cannot show that you have done anything with it yourself: automatic jail time.

    Redefine non-obvious to exclude anything that is a natural extension of another technology, and anything that is specifically in the public interest. (thinking of MS's patents on using a computer to connect to emergency services over a phone line)

    sigh
  28. Go back to the original idea? by shimage · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Patent comes from the latin patens, meaning "open" (notice our usage of the adverb, "patently": patently absurd, patently obvious). A patent is supposed to be you "opening" your product up so that other people can understand how it works. In return for increasing the greater good (by not making it difficult to reverse engineer) you got a brief monopoly. Using this metric, if something is obvious upon inspection, it doesn't deserve a patent, regardless of how innovative or original it is.

    The key difference is that, today, patents are seen as a carrot to promote innovation. As originally conceived, the system assumed (correctly in my opinion) that innovation will always happen, and that what we really needed was a carrot to promote the "opening" of the technology (in the same sense that opensource is open).

    1. Re:Go back to the original idea? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Exactly. The point of the patent is to promote the inventor to publish the invention, instead of keeping it a trade secret. But, until everyone understands that, especially the judges, the system will remain broken.

  29. DMCA, brought to you by: Jon Dudas! by Steve1952 · · Score: 4, Interesting
    If you like the DMCA (and all the RIAA abuses) then you will love Jon Dudas. According to his official USPTO biography:

    "He guided enactment of major patent, trademark, and copyright policy, including the 1999 American Inventors Protection Act and the Digital Millennium Copyright Act."

    Most patent attorneys consider him unqualified because he had no previous patent experience prior to becoming head of the USPTO.

  30. Need to actually have a product to protect! by markdj · · Score: 1

    One of the problems of the current system is that you don't have to actually have a product either in development or in production to be able to enforce a patent. If patent owners were required to have a working product within 2 years of getting the patent granted, much of this would go away. Additionally, patents by themselves would not be tradeable - they would have to have a product to protect. Also, this would get rid of business methods and things like Amazon's one-click since these don't protect products. After all, that's the whole idea behind a patent: a temporary monopoly to get time to recoup the R&D investment before everyone can copy the product.

  31. Fundamental fix: Stop widespread US gov corruption by Futurepower(R) · · Score: 2, Insightful

    "... there is no single "silver bullet" solution..."

    There is a fundamental improvement that could be made, however. The U.S. government is as corrupt as 8 years of selling favors to private interests can make it. We could stop the corruption.

    Corrupt big companies with little creative ability want to make the patent system as complicated as possible for smaller companies. That's why not enough money is available for the patent office to do its job correctly; the corrupters have been deliberately starving government agencies that prevent corruption. They've been starving the SEC, too.

    See Principles for thinking about U.S. government corruption.

    More evidence of widespread corruption: It costs more than $1,000,000 of U.S. taxpayer's money to kill each Iraqi, most of whom are very poor. That shows the real purpose of the war is embezzling money from the taxpayer to give it to weapons and war investors.

    Notes about the U.S. government-Iraq war: 1) I've liked every Iraqi I've met in the United States. I don't want them killed. (I've never been to Iraq.)

    2) There was always violence in Iraq. Supposedly one "justification" for the war was stopping Saddam's violence. Now, however, U.S. taxpayers have caused more violence in a few years than all the violence caused by Saddam Hussein.

    3) Notice that prices in the U.S. are rising rapidly. That's because the U.S. government has been printing more money to pay for the theft of taxpayer money that war makes possible.

    4) The way to not have enemies is to make relationships. The U.S. government has been doing the opposite of that.

    Since before 1953, when the U.S. government overthrew a democratically elected president of Iran, The U.S. government has been killing Muslims and Arabs and destroying their property. For example, the U.S. government has been donating $5 billion each year of taxpayer money to Israelis to be used to buy weapons from U.S. weapons manufacturers. The manufacturers get high profits because Israelis are willing to pay high prices when the money is not theirs.

  32. It's not often ... by DerWulf · · Score: 1

    Never would the ASCII O'Rly Bird have been more appropriate ...

    --

    ___
    No power in the 'verse can stop me
  33. PatentTroll by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "Patents were only supposed to be used in special cases."

    Where does this statement come from? Sorry for my ignorance of history.

  34. Vicious Cycle by rumblin'rabbit · · Score: 1

    Patents are a vicious cycle. The more patents your competitors have, the more patents you need.

    Why? Because one of the best and cheapest way through the patent thicket is to trade licenses. In other word, "I'll let you use my patents if you let me use yours." Such strategies are explicitly recommended by IP professionals. It allows groups of companies to form cabals, where outsiders are effectively barred from competing because they don't have access to critical licenses.

    It's no wonder there are 500,000 patent applications every year.

  35. Patents done right? by Sivar · · Score: 1

    Any honest person, and yes that is a blanket statement, would agree that the patent system in the U.S. is terrible.

    Are there any examples of countries that you (Slashdotters) believe gets it right?

    I read a few interesting reform ideas on this thread, but has anyone/any country implemented a system that actually doesn't suck?

    Patents are not a BadThing. Patent trolls are. But they will always exist, just as spam will always exist because of the financial benefit. The trick is to get the system to where patent trolls are the exception.

    --
    Computer Science is no more about computers than astronomy is about telescopes. --E. W. Dijkstra
  36. State of the Market for IP by Corpuscavernosa · · Score: 1
    Erroneously or not, companies will continue to expand their IP portfolios and yes, try to patent everything they can. Since the licensing boom of the 1970s, all of a sudden all these companies (IBM, HP, etc) suddenly were able to take their patent portfolios and make some huge cash from licensing.

    Fast forward. Now a huge asset to a company besides the products they sell is their IP portfolio. Whether or not their patents are making licensing revenue, a large portfolio makes a company more attratcive, especially for financing. If you're looking at a company that has 30 patents, even if only 2 are making money, versus a company that only has 2 patents (both making money), generally there will be more value and confidence in the 30 patent company. Sort of sill I know, but that's human nature.

    Until people realize that patents do not automatically equal money, companies will continue to patent everything they can.

    --
    We figured out a long time ago that it's easier to elect seven judges than to elect 132 legislators.
  37. First simple change by naasking · · Score: 2, Insightful

    All patent submissions must be accompanied by a physical prototype. The requirement for a physical device has fallen by the wayside, and reintroducing it would probably eliminate 99% of these silly applications.

    Increasing patent fees is not the way forward, as this penalizes the real innovators: the little guys working out of their garage.

    1. Re:First simple change by Kooshman · · Score: 1

      It always sounds tempting to go back to the physical-prototype model, but this would only cut out a small number of useless patents that could be thrown out just as easily with a rules change, such as business method patents. It would be easy to make prototypes of stupid computer patents (e.g., Amazon's one-click), so those are still in. And on the extreme end, you're going to throw out some of the patents that are truly useful and do well to justify the system. I have seen some recent patents on making clean energy on a massive scale using any kind of hydrocarbons, including fossil fuels. All the carbon can be fully sequestered back into the ground. It's a truly innovative and important methodology deserving of protection, but it's taken years and millions of dollars to even get a small prototype up. Do you really think an inventor should have to ship an entire refinery and power plant every time they have a great new idea in clean energy production?

      I agree with the sentiment, but it's just not the right way to go about things any more. Too many of the truly useful ideas can't be roughed together with balsa wood and bailing wire any more.

    2. Re:First simple change by naasking · · Score: 1

      such as business method patents. It would be easy to make prototypes of stupid computer patents (e.g., Amazon's one-click), so those are still in

      No, the Supreme Court has repeatedly ruled that software simply running on a physical device is not eligible for a patent.

    3. Re:First simple change by Kooshman · · Score: 1

      I think you are actually agreeing with me there, not disagreeing. I was overall making the argument that the "physical prototype" requirement does not get rid of many annoying patents, and throws out considerable baby with the bath water to boot. As you mention, the courts and the PTO do what they can to weed out such shenanigans (it can't have been too clear, given the initial acceptance and long struggle against the one-click patent).

      My point about one-click in particular is to show that prototyping in isolation would not eliminate vast classes of annoying, pointless patents. I think the example is important because the physical prototyping argument often gets presented as a silver bullet that will end all patent problems.

  38. Here's a Novel Idea by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Okay, if the point of a patent seems to be to enable the inventor of some thing (note, thing, not "process", procedure, or in some cases plots) to be able to make money with his idea while protecting his rights to it...

    Let's just limit patents and their ability to be enforced to the lifetime of the original creator. Corporations can be evil, but I don't see them getting away with literal murder. And *MY* great idea should benefit me. If I'm not smart enough to provide for my company or heirs down the road, or otherwise don't WANT my children to live without working at all because of my hard work, then let them dangle.

    A patent should protect an idea. For the life of the inventor. It may be corporate controlled, but when that inventor dies, so should the exclusive right.

  39. Re:Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred .. by pete-classic · · Score: 1
  40. Which is wrong, wording or knowledge of history??? by Jane+Q.+Public · · Score: 1

    "Patents were only supposed to be used in special cases."

    That is true of software patents, but not patents in general. Is that what he meant?

    The regular patent system in the United States has always been open to the general public, and was intended to be that way. If you don't know that, then you haven't read your history.

  41. In principle, yes by Lonewolf666 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But the bar needs to be raised a bit more than "a bit".

    I think patents are far too easy to get, for far too little technical contribution in return. Some prerequisites that need to be (re-)introduced:

    -Patent must significantly improve the state of the art. Must also be non-obvious (on the latter, the US Supreme court shows some encouraging tendencies - more of that please))

    -Patent applications must contain instructions on how to build the item, at a level where an average engineer can do it.

    -No patents for things that lack a technical contribution. In particular, no patents on business methods.

    Now if Congress fails to fix the above items, I think the USA would be better off completely without a patent system.

    --
    C - the footgun of programming languages
    1. Re:In principle, yes by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      I wonder if a sliding scale could work? That is, you could apply for differing patent lengths. The longer the patent, the more scrutiny the patent application is put under (the cost might scale as well). Less innovative patents could last just a few years, with the more impressive and innovative ones having a timespan between tend and twenty years.

      The idea is to drastically cut down on the number of top-tier patent applications, while at the same time ensuring the bar isn't set too high for small companies or individuals to receive legitimate patent protection.

      And I still would say that business methods and software patents should be completely eliminated.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  42. Re:Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred .. by thehickcoder · · Score: 1

    Re: Your sig

    My dad used to say that all the time. Something about a code phrase he used in the Navy. What is it from?

  43. Why isn't anyone violating my patents? by MacTO · · Score: 1

    I patented "Slashdotter making positive comments about patents" since I figured that there was no prior art and that it was specific enough. You know, the sort of thing that some of you guys think a good patent should do. Alas, I haven't found anyone to sue for violating my patent yet ...

  44. Here's a concept: by Craig+Maloney · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Head of USPTO grows some nads and tells his employees to stop approving said applications. After all, he's the head of the USPTO. Isn't it his leadership responsibility to put a stop to this sort of thing?

    Be a leader, quit whining and do your job.

  45. Re:Also, dudas, 'chinaman' is not the preferred .. by Adambomb · · Score: 1

    Easily could have been a code phrase, its a really really OLLLD line and theres about a bajillion paraphrases i've run into. Personally, i got it from The Tick where it was effectively nonsense =).

    --
    Ice Cream has no bones.
  46. Quit bitching by Animats · · Score: 1

    Oh, quit bitching about patents. Most of the people whining about this on Slashdot have never solved a significant tough problem that has stumped others.

    There are some real problems with the patent system, but they're not the ones most Slashdot readers think of. There's the interaction of standards and patents, where a narrow patent become valuable because it's the standard, but that's really an antitrust problem. There are problems in the pharmaceutical area, where the industry has convinced Congress to give that industry new, weird kinds of intellectual property, like exclusivity rights in clinical testing results. There's the "business method" area, which needs work. There's the excessive time for examination problem. And there are still overly broad "Claim 1" claims that slip through.

    But if it weren't for patents, only big companies would innovate.

    1. Re:Quit bitching by russotto · · Score: 1

      Oh, quit bitching about patents. Most of the people whining about this on Slashdot have never solved a significant tough problem that has stumped others.


      Neither have most successful patent applicants.
  47. Oh, there's a problem? by hyades1 · · Score: 1

    This guy complaining about the current patent mess is like a skunk asking, "Who farted?"

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  48. suggestion to properly price patents by ftobin · · Score: 1

    I was just daydreaming about how to properly price patents, and the following idea came to mind. What if the return on a patent was limited by a multiplier of how much the patenter is willing to pay for his patent? For example, let's say that patents allow for 1000x multiplier on the application cost. If a patenter is willing to pay $1,000 for the patent, they are not allowed to gain more than $1,000,000 in value from the patent. If they are willing to pay more, they get more protection; pay less, and get less monetary benefit. We might need the right bounds and limits to this, but it seems like simple approach that makes patenters properly pay for their protection based upon their perceived value.

    Thoughts, comments? What I like about the idea is that it provides a pricing method for the system (I am a big fan of some sort of market for most things).

    1. Re:suggestion to properly price patents by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      What if the return on a patent was limited by a multiplier of how much the patenter is willing to pay for his patent? For example, let's say that patents allow for 1000x multiplier on the application cost. If a patenter is willing to pay $1,000 for the patent, they are not allowed to gain more than $1,000,000 in value from the patent. If they are willing to pay more, they get more protection; pay less, and get less monetary benefit.

      This would hurt the small inventor more than megacorp. Instead do something like this: someone applying for a patent has to have a product with the patent on the market within say a year or two. Then they get exclusive rights to it for say 5 years. After the 5 years in order to continue the monopoly for another 5 years they have to pay say 5% of the income produced as a patent tax. Those 5 years go by in which they generated enough income to decide to keep the monopoly, so to get another 5 year monopoly they pay 10%. Then 20% and so on, the longer they own the monopoly the more they pay. When they decide it's not worth paying for the monopoly it's released into the public domain.

      Falcon
    2. Re:suggestion to properly price patents by ftobin · · Score: 1

      First, in response to your comment about my proposal, yes, it would be more likely that a large corporation would be able to invest more via their patent application and therefore get higher returns, but I propose that is acceptable. A single individual might be able to only make, say $1 million off the patent, while a larger company who invests 100 times as much initially would be able to make $100 million. However, the idea is that $1 to an individual is similar to $100 million for a corporation with $100 times the resources. Benefits are given in relative multipliers to your current finances instead of absolutes, which, I believe, from a psychological standpoint is a good way to approach things. Additionally, if a small inventor truly believes his idea is good, like in the regular market, he should have to get investment capital to build off of.

      Similarly, it's like investing in the stock market. You make a multiple of what you put in, no matter which good investment idea you have. If you have more money, you can make more money as a result of your investment.

      One problem with the idea you're proposing is that you are simply taxing income. Since taxes only reduce a percentage of income, there would never be a point at where you wouldn't make money off of the patent. The untaxed portion of income would get reduced over time but would remain >= 0, and as such would never become "not worth paying for the monopoly".

    3. Re:suggestion to properly price patents by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      One problem with the idea you're proposing is that you are simply taxing income. Since taxes only reduce a percentage of income, there would never be a point at where you wouldn't make money off of the patent. The untaxed portion of income would get reduced over time but would remain >= 0, and as such would never become "not worth paying for the monopoly".

      However you left out cost of making the product. Before any tax or patent is included, if your profit margin on a product is 50% but your paying a 50% fee on income for the patent you're basically breaking even. Which is one reason I said "income" not profit.

      Another reason I said income is because if profit was used as a basis, you'd see companies getting more and more into Hollywood Accounting.

      Falcon
    4. Re:suggestion to properly price patents by ftobin · · Score: 1

      Interesting idea to go after income as opposed to profit, but I would think that people would really try to game the system by hiding how much revenue they made from a particular product, instead attributing it to something else in a bundle. It could quickly be a lot of paperwork and accounting for the USPTO to take care of.

      It would be good if your idea accounted for products which are meant to be produced in high volume with little margin; by using a percentage-based system, such products would become more non-profitable more quickly. I'm not sure if there is a positive or negative, but it would be good if you analyzed such situations.

      One additional problem that your proposal doesn't cover is patent trolls, who lay out many patents, unaware of the potential value of each. I tried to cover this by making the patenter price the patent himself. In your case, the patent trolls does not incur any costs, as they do not make the product themselves. Am I missing something?

      I am actually quite excited about my idea; I plan to write a short paper and get it reviewed. In my opinion, it mirrors standard business idea and implementation (profit = idea * initial investment).

    5. Re:suggestion to properly price patents by falconwolf · · Score: 1

      One additional problem that your proposal doesn't cover is patent trolls, who lay out many patents, unaware of the potential value of each. I tried to cover this by making the patenter price the patent himself. In your case, the patent trolls does not incur any costs, as they do not make the product themselves. Am I missing something?

      Yes, I think you missed something. I specifically stipulated someone issued a patent had a couple of year in which to put a product using the invention on the market otherwise they lose the monopoly. That means by-by patent trolls who only apply for patents then sit on their asses and wait until someone violates the patent, like NTP did to RIM over the Blackberry.

      Falcon
  49. Took ya that long???? by Doug52392 · · Score: 1

    Wow, talk about a slow government! We knew this was a problem for, what now, 15 years???? It took him 15 years???

  50. Try $1500 or so to patent: hit Nolo press's books by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0
  51. Why it is always posted by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Is to divert attention to Twofo[twofo.co.uk] until someone gets it shut down. Just cause as much trouble for twofo as possible. Via trolling, spamming, crapflooding, whatever. Yeah it's not as effective as flooding the hub with "Zeus sucks cock" messages, but since the hub moved to a 100Mbit line, and had flood protection added, I can't do that anymore. Anyway, I hate those fuckers. They deserve to be anally raped to death.

    Plus, occasionally, it's a link to goatse not twofo.

  52. An interesting market solution by xenocide2 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I listened to a lecture given by Eben Moglen on the subject of Patents, with emphasis on software. When he came to the subject of undoing the current system, he mentioned what I thought to be an interesting market approach. Professional engineers are currently expected to develop patents on their creations, and are rewarded for their efforts with bonuses, promotions, etc. The suggestion is to ask companies to reward engineers for every patent they overturn in the process of bringing a product to market. With that, there's now equal market incentive to overturn patents as there is to create new ones, and a company is forced to recognize that the patent system that gives them IP is as a whole a barrier to their future.

    I'm sure there's holes in that simple proposal, but I'd be interested to see if that idea can be made workable.

    --
    I Browse at +4 Flamebait

    Open Source Sysadmin

  53. Dudas is a know-nothing hack by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Dudas is just a (Republican) political hack, who was given his position as a reward for his work on the Clinton impeachment. He is universally disrespected by most patent lawyers. His proposed "quality" reforms are mostly CYA crap. Most recently, a court overturned many of his proposed rule changes as illegal.

    Next in line for his job a a former aid to Rep. Hastert, also someone with zero patent experience (despite a statute saying such experience is required).

    The suggestions above to limit patent ownership to employees, rather than companies, would stop virtually all patent applications related to big companies. Would Intel or AMD want to develop the next big thing if the employee/patent holders are each able to license that technology to anyone, including competitors at will? It would be worse than not patenting the work.

  54. What are patent examiners rewarded for? by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

    You've got kids dealing with really high-level stuff in a lot of cases. Optics, physics, biotech. No wonder it's easier for companies to push shitty applications through. The problem is not that the examiners are incompetent.. i mean there may be a bit of that too but many patents are obvious enough that your average just-out-of-college kid can figure out they shouldn't be approved.

    The problem is a) which way the incentive is and b) what the standards of patentability are. For a), I can just say that for a patent examiner it is less work to approve than to reject (it's up to him to find prior art, and then he gets an appeal...). And they need to be productive in terms of number of patents processed per month. I won't get into B.. but clearly if using known technique A to solve known problem B is patentable any half-wit can come up with 100 patents in one brainstorming session with his imaginary friend.

    Of course it takes more skill to find a patentable idea that will actually make you money, but it has nothing to do with innoviation and all to do with knowing what's up in the market.

    So after patenting doing A on the web, then doing A over wireless, then doing it localised with wireless+gps, what's the next software patent fad?
  55. I won't take his word for it by js_sebastian · · Score: 1

    there is an equally significant problem with patent applications that are improperly rejected. This is one silicon valley CEO whining his patents are being rejected.. His company, parimics does intellectual property only (but of course you need to sign an NDA if you want details).

    So i asked google patents about it and got several patents by him (in previous companies), and only 1 by this company.
    So here comes claim 1 of patent application: "Method and apparatus for image processing"

    1. An image processing system adapted to process image frames and comprising:

    an image processing engine adapted to perform object-independent processing corresponding to a first layer of the image processing system, said image processing engine further adapted to include a plurality of processors each associated with a different one of pixels of the image frame;
    a post processing engine adapted to perform object-dependent processing corresponding to a second processing layer of the image processing system, said post processing engine further adapted to include an N-way symmetric multi-processing system (SMP) having disposed therein N DFT engines and N matrix multiplication engines; wherein N is an integer greater than 1, and
    a processing engine adapted to perform object composition, recognition and association corresponding to a third processing layer of the image processing system.
    To me this sounds exactly like the kind of over-general claim that a good patent examiner should strike out, even if there is some worth in the patent as a whole.
  56. How do we help the small, poor Inventor? by Nontagonist · · Score: 1

    ... As someone who's reasonably well educated and creative I have happened upon at least three or four ideas in my life that are worth a patent. Not silly stuff, I mean solid ideas with practical industrial benefit. Of course I cannot afford the $10,000+ to patent such ideas, I'm in the same boat.

    and since publishing is no longer a protection against having these ideas misappropriated by persons in the USA I choose to keep them to myself. Really? Since when is publication not a protection of sorts? You mean that someone else can get a patent on your idea? I want names and dates.

    Those ideas will probably be thought of by someone else soon enough, I am nothing special, My brain is warped, so some of my ideas will likely _not_ be thought of by anybody else anytime soon. (And, by the way, I don't really trust computers with sensitive data, so don't anybody get any ideas about cracking my system (again) to learn my secrets ;-).

    but for the time being they stay in my mind and may die with me. A friend told me a story of a lone inventor who developed a formula for a casting material that would give a near-perfect surface finish for aluminium alloys. He shopped it around and showed it to numerous people in industry while keeping the formula secret. It was good enough that it could cast the cylinder head for a mower engine and the part wouldn't even need machining before bolting it on the cylinder block. No-one was interested - they were happy to do it the old-fashioned way, even though it would save them money to change.

    He took the idea to his grave. :-(

    I have no desire to make money from them, but I cannot publish if I want the legitimate currency of recognition, nor can I patent them because it's not affordable. ... If you don't want money from the ideas, just take out an advertisement in the local rag and explain your idea there. Invite comments in the letters to the editor section. Keep a few copies of the paper and make sure that the newspaper is archived somewhere where the public can look it up. Perhaps go to the politicians who represent you to see who to talk to - if you think it could help the government.

    Ultimately internet publication with verifiable timestamped accountability brought about by extensive traffic logging will replace all IP claims and the old institutions, but for those of us with ideas who are caught in this transition period it's not a happy state of affairs and I suspect many valuable ideas are simply being lost or held back. Internet publication with verifiable timestamps will only partially solve the priority claim, and if you think traffic logging will identify the path of that information to someone who exploits it I think you're mistaken. In the case of patents, on which you have apparently given up, there is much more to the process.

    Regards, Non.
    --
    There is another theory that states that this has already happened.
  57. captialism by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Patents were crafted by people who accept capitalism and competition as inviolate principles, and wish to prevent the sort of secret hoarding that defined the guilds of the Mercantile age.

    Dude, you obviously don't know, or forgot, what capitalism is about. To educate, or remind you, what capitalism is about I suggest you read Adam Smith's, the Father of Capitalism, "The Wealth of Nations" and "The Theory of Moral Sentiments". He was opposed to monopolies but believed that limited monopolies granted by patents, key word being "limited", could bring benefits. Then Thomas Jefferson at first opposed patents as well but then his friend James Madison convinced him they could benefit society as well.

    The point of patents was to force secret societies to reveal their secrets if they wanted the law to continue to validate and enforce their control. If you didn't reveal the secret, you couldn't ask the cops to go shut that guy down, but if you did, you could.

    This would be better realized in the modern age by making transparency of process a requirement to enter the market, period.

    Add the requirement that a patent application included a working example of the invention, which used to be required but was dropped. Requiring a working product, as you say released to the public, would prevent patent trolls like NTP from suing others like RIM over the Blackberry.

    Falcon
  58. Hypothetical example: by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    Bill, an engineer at Small Business LLC with 5 employee owners, is having lunch with his buddy Carl, an engineer from Megacorporation and describes a process whereby they are efficiently able to extract hydrogen from a glass of water which then powers a fuel cell. They are in the process of creating a prototype to make sure everything works right before applyig for a patent.

    Carl takes some pages of doodles he made during lunch to show his boss, a PHB. PHB goes ahead and files an application for a patent using those pages. So when Small Business LLC files for a patent they find Megacorp already has the patent, and even though they have a prototype they are denied the patent.

    Falcon
  59. Kill Bob by gr8scot · · Score: 1

    Bob, an engineer for Cannibalistic Business Practices, Inc. (which has 10,000 employees) is a college buddy of one of the Littleguy workers. They have a dinner conversation about Littleguy's new engine. Bob tells his boss about the idea, the boss goes to the head of R+D, and they begin building and testing models of the engine. Because CBP has thousands of employees at their disposal, they find the ideal setup quickly, and then patent it. He is a cannibal, after all.

    To solve your dilemma, we'd only need to allow patents to reach "pending" status via paperwork, then set a reasonable interval of time to deliver a working prototype as condition of approving the patent. If the patent gets approved, some royalties are paid for production during the pending period and regular patent protection is extended afterward. If not, Littleguy, LLC is no worse for their application (relatively minor costs, anyway) than if they had tried and failed to protect their invention as a trade secret, as in your scenario.
    --
    All 19 hijackers were known terrorists 09-10-2001. Lack of FBI intelligence does not justify warrantless wiretaps..
  60. Money saving idea by sjames · · Score: 1

    The USPTO approved a patent on teasing a cat with a laser pointer. They have approved patents on long-ago published methods. They have approved patents on "business methods" known and used for 100 years just because someone had the rather obvious "idea" to store the data on a computer instead of just remembering it or using index cards.

    Why don't they just save us all some cash and sell patent approved stamps at office supply stores? It's not like the newly approved patents would receive any less thorough evaluation or anything.

  61. poor inventors by falconwolf · · Score: 1

    They really can't use their patents without money to back them up or by becoming patent trolls with nothing to lose.

    With a patent an inventor can go to a manufacturer and try to negotiate to have them manufacture the product without being concerned the company will simply steal it as their own. Or they can go to an angel investor. Maybe they can convince someone to bankroll them. Without the legal protection of a patent it can be much harder to have an invention manufactured.

    What's new in patent history is the recent prevalence of patent trolls who impede companies making real products.

    I've covered patent trolls twice in my conversation with you, did you miss it or are you ignoring it?

    Falcon