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Blogger Successfully Quashes Subpoena

Ares writes "In a follow-up to Blogger Subpoenaed for Criticizing Trial Lawyers, Katherine Seidel's blog indicates that not only has she successfully quashed her subpoena, but the lawyer issuing said subpoena is now under orders to appear and explain why the courts shouldn't sanction him for it. This should be interesting, because in addition to Ms. Seidel's subpoena in New Hampshire, the lawyer issued a similar subpoena to a doctor and a Harvard professor under similar circumstances."

172 comments

  1. More important things by Ossifer · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Good to hear she can return to addressing more important things in life... like autism...

    1. Re:More important things by The+Ancients · · Score: 5, Funny

      Good to hear she can return to addressing more important things in life... like autism...

      Are you saying lawyers aren't important?

      Way to get sued!

    2. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I for one, welcome our blogging-about-autism female overlords. Who would I date without them?

    3. Re:More important things by molecularaz · · Score: 0, Redundant

      all your Blogs belong to your lawyers

    4. Re:More important things by wtansill · · Score: 4, Funny

      Are you saying lawyers aren't important? Way to get sued!
      Why certainly they are are important! I can't imagine what else I'd feed my pet alligators if the supply of lawyers ran out!
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    5. Re:More important things by The+Ancients · · Score: 2, Funny

      Are you saying lawyers aren't important? Way to get sued!
      Why certainly they are are important! I can't imagine what else I'd feed my pet alligators if the supply of lawyers ran out! RIAA/MPAA staff?
    6. Re:More important things by clarkcox3 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Wouldn't a female overlord be an overlady?

      --
      There are no tiger attacks in my area and it's all because this rock I'm holding keeps the tigers away.
    7. Re:More important things by dargon · · Score: 1

      Damn, you want to make the big lizard sick?

    8. Re:More important things by trolltalk.com · · Score: 4, Funny

      Why certainly they are are important! I can't imagine what else I'd feed my pet alligators if the supply of lawyers ran out!

      I'm calling PETA and the *SPCA on you! If you hate your 'gators so much, why not just put them to sleep instead of torturing them?

    9. Re:More important things by JohnnyGTO · · Score: 1

      If it was only so easy...

      --
      Si vis pacem, para bellum! For evil to succeed good men need only do nothing!
    10. Re:More important things by PopeRatzo · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I can't imagine what else I'd feed my pet alligators if the supply of lawyers ran out!
      I hope you never get arrested for a crime you didn't commit or your kid isn't poisoned by some product made by a careless corporation.

      I hope you never get prosecuted or sued by the RIAA because your neighbor's son hacked your wireless router and used it to play with torrentz.

      I hope your civil rights are never violated or that you never need the protection of bankruptcy court.

      I hope you never have a problem with your income taxes, or a dispute with your business partner or get rear-ended by a drunk driver.

      I hope you never have to set up a trust fund to care for a relative who is too ill to care for herself or have a dispute with your bank or have your identity stolen.

      I hope you never get married unwisely and have to divorce from a spouse who wants to hurt you as much as possible.

      I hope you never get overlooked for promotion because you are too old, or too black or too female.

      It can be argued that lawyers do as much to protect our freedoms as the men and women in our military. Maybe more.

      People who think our lives and our country would be better without lawyers are as stupid as stupid gets.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    11. Re:More important things by compro01 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yes, good lawyers are very useful people to have (good accountants also fall in the undervalued category), but there are way too many bad (where bad="complete lack of ethics") ones around, hence the big-brushing of the profession.

      --
      upon the advice of my lawyer, i have no sig at this time
    12. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If it weren't for lawyers...We wouldn't need lawyers!

    13. Re:More important things by Curunir_wolf · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Thank you for standing up for all the good lawyers in this country. It really troubles me that the bad ones give the other 2% a bad name.

      I can't imagine what else I'd feed my pet alligators if the supply of lawyers ran out!
      I hope you never get arrested for a crime you didn't commit or your kid isn't poisoned by some product made by a careless corporation.

      Corporations are careless because their lawyers make them so expensive to sue, and ensure that the corporate officers are never held personally liable for unconscionable acts.

      I hope you never get prosecuted or sued by the RIAA because your neighbor's son hacked your wireless router and used it to play with torrentz.

      The RIAA is pretty much just a bunch of lawyers (oh - and lobbyists). Oops - most lobbyists *are* lawyers.

      I hope your civil rights are never violated or that you never need the protection of bankruptcy court.
      Why would I need protection of a bankruptcy court? Oh, yea, because there is someone threatening to sic their LAWYERS on me.

      I hope you never have a problem with your income taxes, or a dispute with your business partner or get rear-ended by a drunk driver.

      Yes, because income taxes are so complicated. Lawyers certainly had *nothing* to do with that. I just hope any business partner I have can negotiate rationally and doesn't decide to ... umm... sic a lawyer on me. I'd have to find a lawyer had give *him* my half of the business instead. You're right about the drunk driver, though. I'd want an ambulance chaser helping me with that because insurance companies are almost as bad as lawyers.

      I hope you never have to set up a trust fund to care for a relative who is too ill to care for herself or have a dispute with your bank or have your identity stolen.
      Actually, I had a relative that did set up a trust fund with a lawyer that was handling most of her finances. She died penniless, of course. The last I heard they thought the lawyer had left Bermuda and they were speculating he was in France.

      I hope you never get married unwisely and have to divorce from a spouse who wants to hurt you as much as possible.
      Because then I would have to deal with her lawyer?

      I hope you never get overlooked for promotion because you are too old, or too black or too female.
      Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. It said "My lawyer says I don't have a case".

      It can be argued that lawyers do as much to protect our freedoms as the men and women in our military. Maybe more.
      It can also be said that lawyers are the ones working to take away our freedoms. At least the guys in the military are allowed to shoot the enemy (without subsequently dealing with more lawyers).

      People who think our lives and our country would be better without lawyers are as stupid as stupid gets. I'm sure you could make a persuasive argument to that effect that a judge (still a lawyer) would agree with.

      There are good lawyers out there that really do honest work and do not view themselves as God's gift to the peasants. But finding one makes you feel like Lot wandering the streets of Gomorrah. And our country might not be better off without them - but it might be better off without 95% of them.

      --
      "Somebody has to do something. It's just incredibly pathetic it has to be us."
      --- Jerry Garcia
    14. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What do the men and women in your military do to protect your freedom?

      Who are they protecting these freedoms from?

    15. Re:More important things by drsmithy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      yes, good lawyers are very useful people to have (good accountants also fall in the undervalued category), but there are way too many bad (where bad="complete lack of ethics") ones around, hence the big-brushing of the profession.

      As a nitpick, the problem with "bad lawyers" is usually their morals, not their ethics.

      Indeed, such people (along with, say, the average large corporation's upper management) are usually an excellent example for demonstrating the difference between "ethical" and "moral".

    16. Re:More important things by Z34107 · · Score: 1

      I've wondered about that.

      If lord == lady, why is "Hey, lady!" casual slang, bordering on rude?

      And where does the phrase "ladies and gentlemen" come from? I'd expect something more Max Payne-esque like "lords and ladies." I also doubt lord == gentleman - "Gentleman Voldemort" doesn't have the same ring to it. Does this mean "ladies and gentlemen" puts women > men, if lady is a greater title than gentleman?

      And since when did "ma'am" turn into something for old people? Age isn't the only reason to show respect to another person. (Actually, I think most old people are greedy, well-lobbied-and-lobbying crackpots out for my tax dollars, but that's another problem.) I mean, men don't take offense at being called "sir" with some insipid quip about "I'm not that old!"

      And why is grass green? And why is the sky blue? And why are we here? How many angels can breakdance on a pinhead...

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    17. Re:More important things by DigitalWallaby · · Score: 2

      There really ought to be a 'didn't get the joke' mod.

    18. Re:More important things by Roger+W+Moore · · Score: 1

      ...and how many of those problems would be smaller if it were not for the lawyers for the opposite side? How many can afford the lawyers for the rest? We have national health services (outside the US) - if lawyers are so important how come there is no national legal service?

      Shouldn't courts be more interested in finding out the truth of what happened and not who can hire the best story teller? This is what I think is completely missing from the English-based legal system.

    19. Re:More important things by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 1

      Gators won't eat lawyers, because it gives them a bellyache and also professional courtesy like sharks have for lawyers to not attack or eat them.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    20. Re:More important things by Spykk · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I hope you never get arrested for a crime you didn't commit or your kid isn't poisoned by some product made by a careless corporation. Yeah, because your appointed lawyer is sure to beat said careless corporation's lawyer.

      I hope you never get prosecuted or sued by the RIAA because your neighbor's son hacked your wireless router and used it to play with torrentz. You may not be aware of this, but the RIAA has been using its highly paid lawyers to win the majority of those laughable cases.

      It can be argued that lawyers do as much to protect our freedoms as the men and women in our military. Maybe more. For every lawyer who defended someone's rights, there was another lawyer trying to usurp them for profit. Sadly, the amount of money you spend on your lawyer can be a much larger factor in the outcome of your case than being in the right is.
    21. Re:More important things by oddaddresstrap · · Score: 1

      "There really ought to be a 'didn't get the joke' mod".

      How about "whoosh!"?

    22. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      Overlord is a word more complicated than its components. The proper female equivalent of overlord is "wife". The collective is "overload".
      Hence you can have the somewhat fractious phrase "I have an overload of wives" which simply says you have several female overlords and should, in no way, result in you sleeping on the couch for a week.

    23. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cause to put them to sleep with lawyers would be a greater torture.

    24. Re:More important things by wtansill · · Score: 1

      Next time I'll be sure to tag my submissions so that they will be recognized as tongue-in-cheek. I surely don't wish to see the humor-impaired strain their necks as the jokes whiz by overhead. I could be sued for that!

      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    25. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Self important much?

    26. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Kinda silly to respond to your serious reply to someone's joke, but...

      Of all the things on your list, how many of them do you need a lawyer for _because_ lawyers have made the rules so complicated no "normal" person can hope to figure them out?

      Is there a reason that tax law needs to be so complicated that it requires a lawyer to comply with?

      Is there a reason that a judge should be incapable of understanding a plain-English argument and coming to a conclusion of what is fair and reasonable in matters of common sense?

      Yeah, it's a complex world, and probably inevitable that the law needs to be so complicated as to require lawyers. Then again, maybe not.

    27. Re:More important things by Cesa · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Where is "-1 overdramatic" when you need it?

    28. Re:More important things by KinkyClown · · Score: 1

      I hope you never get overlooked for promotion because you are too old, or too black or too female.

      Been there. Done that. Got the t-shirt. It said "My lawyer says I don't have a case". Translation: My lawyer didn't think it would pay/earn him enough money to persue it.
    29. Re:More important things by Fulcrum+of+Evil · · Score: 1

      Easy - lord != lady. Lord and Lady are terms of nobility, while Lady and Gentleman are terms of good breeding/class.

      --
      "We returned the General to El Salvador, or maybe Guatemala, it's difficult to tell from 10,000 feet"
    30. Re:More important things by WK2 · · Score: 1

      I hope that stuff never happens too. I mean, I don't know the guy, but that stuff is terrible. Why would anyone, except maybe en enemy, want any of that stuff to happen to poor wtansill?

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    31. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      all very nice *if* you can find a lawyer that will actually get stuff done.

      The problem is that the looser should pay all fees - to discourage frivolous lawsuits.

    32. Re:More important things by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      For every lawyer who defended someone's rights, there was another lawyer trying to usurp them for profit.
      I call bullshit.

      Give up some references or go home.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    33. Re:More important things by PopeRatzo · · Score: 0

      wtansill, I realized your alligator joke was an unoriginal attempt at humor.

      I bet you know some Chink, Polack and Blonde jokes, too.

      IANAL, but I've paid attention enough that I've learned that here in the US, lawyers are at least as important as police and firemen.

      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    34. Re:More important things by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      There really ought to be a 'didn't get the joke' mod.
      See, I don't find jokes where a particular group or class or race or gender is "fed to alligators" particularly funny.

      And the old, old joke about lawyers is wrong-headed enough that I thought I ought to respond.

      Remember, Abraham Lincoln was a lawyer. It's mainly lawyers who are preventing high-school biology classes across the US South from being replaced with Religion classes.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    35. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I nominate this for post of the year.

    36. Re:More important things by tinkerghost · · Score: 1

      You could try politicians & lobbyists, but I think the BS content is probably too high for a healthy diet.

    37. Re:More important things by sc7007 · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      I call bullshit. You don't get to call bullshit. A judge (lawyer) has ruled that you don't have standing.
    38. Re:More important things by jedidiah · · Score: 1

      > How many can afford the lawyers for the rest?

      This is where "ambulance chasing comes in". All of that bottom feeding that you
      people like to moan about so much is where representation from the poor comes
      from. You would rather just like to regurgitate corporate rhetoric about how
      bad lawyers are.

      Do a little digging into who spearheads tort reform.

      It's usually some rich wanker that doesn't want to be held responsible
      for his absurd levels of penny pinching.

      As far as "national health care goes"...

      There are people that flee the Canadian health care system and come to the
      US and Canada isn't nearly as large as the US. It can't be any worse than
      what a state system for California or Texas would look like yet it scales
      poorly enough that people with money will flee from it.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    39. Re:More important things by Lurker2288 · · Score: 1

      ...and it's the Thomas Moore Law Center, the self-described sword and shield of Christianity in the US, that's working so hard to force creationism--I mean, intelligent design--down the throats of of those high school kids. In fact, you'll note that the ID movement as a whole probably has more lawyers on its payroll than actual biologists.

      Which of course doesn't make lawyers in general evil, but maintain some perspective.

    40. Re:More important things by wtansill · · Score: 1

      wtansill, I realized your alligator joke was an unoriginal attempt at humor. I bet you know some Chink, Polack and Blonde jokes, too. IANAL, but I've paid attention enough that I've learned that here in the US, lawyers are at least as important as police and firemen.
      I bow before the awesome power of your solemnity.
      --
      The contest for ages has been to rescue liberty from the grasp of executive power. -- Daniel Webster
    41. Re:More important things by Spykk · · Score: 1

      Give up some references or go home. I'm not a student of law, but I believe most cases involve at least two lawyers. If your rights are being defended by a lawyer, then their is likely a lawyer who is attacking them.
    42. Re:More important things by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      The trade term is "dominatrix".

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    43. Re:More important things by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 1

      I mean, men don't take offense at being called "sir" with some insipid quip about "I'm not that old!"

      Clerk: Mr. Smith?
      Mr. Smith: That's my dad! (chuckling wittily)

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    44. Re:More important things by reddburn · · Score: 1

      An attorney is bound to represent his client to the best of his ability. The problem might be all the assholes with enough money to hire lawyers, no?

      --
      "Those who believe in telekinetics, raise my hand" - Kurt Vonnegut, Jr.
    45. Re:More important things by ubuwalker31 · · Score: 1

      Of course, it isn't the lawyer's morals and ethics who are circumspect....it is that lawyer's clients.

      The lawyer isn't the person suing the drug company...the person with the dispute is the one who is suing.

      The lack of ethics and morality stands squarely on the shoulders of the person who is the client; the lawyer must always act within the bounds of the law and represent the client zealously, since that is his duty.

      An ordinary foot soldier is not to blame for an immoral war, so long as his individual actions do not violate the laws of war...the same can be said of a lawyer.

    46. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I hope you never get overlooked for promotion because you are too old, or too black or too female.

      This never fucking happens. Stop making up fake problems to justify affirmative action.

    47. Re:More important things by TheVelvetFlamebait · · Score: 1

      You actually think we'd be better off without lawyers? If we don't have lawyers, then we have people acting like lawyers who do a worse job. You think our legal system is fucked? Wait until the laws is argued by incompetents. Corporations lose their legal power, but so does everyone. Eventually it'll be the people who have the best rhetorical skills who get justice, or at least something resembling it. Everyone else would have to eat shit.

      --
      You know, there is a difference between trolling and pointing out the flaws in your reasoning. Just saying.
    48. Re:More important things by Lijemo · · Score: 1

      I was trying to figure out why laywers get a bad rap when clearly there are good apples and bad in every profession.

      I think that it's because in other professions, the bad apples have nothing to gain, and everything to lose, either by trumpeting their own lack of ethics or by making their profession as a whole look unethical. (Sure, there are always a few cases of someone in a position of power getting a personal buzz out of flaunting what they can get away with, but they don't gain anything professionally from it.)

      Except for laywers. As long as they stay enough within the letter of the law to avoid truely harmful sanctions, a bad-apple lawyer that flaunts his or her lack of ethics will attract (likely highly profitable) clients looking for a lawyer with a lack of ethics. And by perpetuating the idea that "that's just what lawyers are like", they gain the business of the nieve people who just go with the most visible advertisement, because they don't know that there are better options.

      So lawyers get a bad rap because unlike other professions, the image of the sleazy lawyer is being encouraged by memebers of their own profession. Thus anyone who takes the most obnoxiously visible members of a group as representative, and doesn't look for any hidden agenda in the message that they are sending, is going to think poorly of the legal profession as a whole.

    49. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I'm sorry your life sucks, but I hope you learn how to laugh at a lawyer joke before this world takes its toll on you.

    50. Re:More important things by m.ducharme · · Score: 1

      That doesn't mean the other lawyer is attacking your rights for profit. He may be protecting someone else's rights. Or enforcing the will of the State. Or, gawd help us, protecting the children. And of course, just because a lawyer is protecting your rights, doesn't mean he's not doing it for profit. Personal Injury lawyers make money hand over fist, you know. More than the lawyers who defend the Insurance companies, actually.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    51. Re:More important things by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      I bow before the awesome power of your solemnity.
      Accepted.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    52. Re:More important things by PopeRatzo · · Score: 1

      the ID movement as a whole probably has more lawyers on its payroll than actual biologists.
      Damn, that's a good point.

      I guess I was wrong all along.
      --
      You are welcome on my lawn.
    53. Re:More important things by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "Of course, it isn't the lawyer's morals and ethics who are circumspect....it is that lawyer's clients."

      The lawyer does however have a choice about whether to take a case or not.

      "The lawyer isn't the person suing the drug company...the person with the dispute is the one who is suing."

      But the lawyer is voluntarily acting on that person's behalf.

      "The lack of ethics and morality stands squarely on the shoulders of the person who is the client"

      A client who the lawyer has specifically chosen to represent.

      "the lawyer must always act within the bounds of the law and represent the client zealously, since that is his duty."

      The lawyer does not however have a duty to accept anyone as a client.

      "An ordinary foot soldier is not to blame for an immoral war, so long as his individual actions do not violate the laws of war"

      But a mercenary who chooses to work for the bad side of such an immoral war in full knowledge of their nature can and should be blamed.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    54. Re:More important things by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Eventually it'll be the people who have the best rhetorical skills who get justice, or at least something resembling it. Everyone else would have to eat shit. ...Eventually?
  2. Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I'm just wondering why, genetically speaking, it should feel so good to hear about justice being served? Justice, fairness, reciprocity, selflessness: these things naturally feel good to most people, while their opposites usually feel bad, even when they have absolutely nothing to do with us.

    If we were truly selfish creatures, wouldn't the opposite be true? We would have evidence that we could get away with our selfishness, and that would feel good. It seems our genetics code for cooperative behaviors over selfish ones. Is this simply the selfish best choice for individuals, to cooperate with each other, or can genes code for behaviors that are detrimental to the individual but good for the gene pool overall?

    --
    - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    1. Re:Justice sure feels good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      [C]an genes code for behaviors that are detrimental to the individual but good for the gene pool overall? That's what Richard Dawkins's 1976 book The Selfish Gene argues, and I think that position is fairly accepted now.
    2. Re:Justice sure feels good by Hatta · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Injustices benefit a few, justice benefits us all. By the numbers, you're more likely to benefit from justice than injustice.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Justice sure feels good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      similarly, the fact that we like to root for the underdog...

      perhaps this is related to our empathic natures. We are capable of placing ourselves into these stories, of seeing that if it could happen to them, it could happen to us. By seeing justice served, it means that one less person can act against our own best interests. In effect, when the big bully gets knocked down a peg, we are safer - even if it wasn't us getting picked on in the first place.

    4. Re:Justice sure feels good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Oh crap. That's wrong. Genes can code for behavior that's bad for the individual, but good for the survival of that particular gene.

    5. Re:Justice sure feels good by trolltalk.com · · Score: 1

      similarly, the fact that we like to root for the underdog...

      Or more likely, we've either been f*cked over by a lawyer in the past, or know someone who has been. There's a BIG difference between the law and justice, and the law as currently practiced is often unjust.

      It also explains all the lawyer jokes:

      Like, "Deep down, lawyers are okay - preferrably at least 6 feet down."

      ... and ...

      Q. what do you call 1000 lawyers buried up to their necks in sand?
      A. Not enough sand.

    6. Re:Justice sure feels good by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 1

      The reason: Life isn't fair. When the square peg fits the round hole, we like the change.

      A similar phenomenon (yet the opposite direction) is us always hoping that Skeletor will kick He-man's ass if JUST ONCE

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    7. Re:Justice sure feels good by tgibbs · · Score: 1

      . Is this simply the selfish best choice for individuals, to cooperate with each other, or can genes code for behaviors that are detrimental to the individual but good for the gene pool overall? They can, but it's hard to make it work. Basically, a mechanism is required such that the benefits of the behavior accrue more to those who have the gene than to those who don't. So if it is detrimental to you, but beneficial to a other of people who are more likely than the average person to share that gene, then it can be favored by natural selection. So one tends to look for direct benefits before looking for indirect ones

      Reciprocal altruism is one example--for example, if altruists are more likely to cooperate with one another than with non-altruists, then it may be to your overall benefit to be an altruist, even though individual acts of altruism may cost you, because you benefit from the assistance of other altruists. Of course, that depends upon altruists being able to recognize one another. So if "feeling good about seeing justice served" is accompanied by recognizable cues, such as smiling when you hear of such an occurrence or communicating about it to others, you might, evolutionarily speaking, be identifying yourself as part of the empathetic/altruistic genetic community, and therefore eligible to receive benefit from other members of the club.

    8. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Hehe, that is SO true. Who DIDN'T root for the coyote to catch the roadrunner? Life isn't fair, yet most of us are born with an innate desire for it to be so. This desire for fairness has been shown to be more powerful than the profit motive. Yet our economic system is based on the premise that individual profit is most rewarding to individuals. It is set up to reward selfishness, and in essence makes life less fair. When it seems there is no possibility that life can be fair, most people resort to selfish behavior. So our economic system becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    9. Re:Justice sure feels good by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      Look at chimpanzees vs. humans to see what the difference between naturally selfish and naturally sharing behavior is.

      Chimps will take whatever they think they can get away with, and never actively teach and often try to hide things from each other. Humans may have a lot of the same tendencies, but not nearly to the same degree.

    10. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 2, Informative

      Chimps do teach each other things, and will not generally steal from friends. Younger males will often cooperate to distract a dominant male while a few slip in for a little hanky panky with his harem. They are quite secretive, though.

      But pygmy chimps (also known as bonobos) are very, very different animals behaviorally. Researchers speculate that the abundance of resources in the South American habitat of the bonobos, as compared to the African chimps, leads to more cooperative behavior. Bonobos are highly cooperative and non-heirarchal. Pygmy chimps are also the sluts of the animal world, and use sex to diffuse any societal tension. Which leads me to hypothesize (especially to any available females) that more sex would lead to a more peaceful, cooperative world.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    11. Re:Justice sure feels good by argent · · Score: 2, Funny

      Chimps will take whatever they think they can get away with, and never actively teach and often try to hide things from each other.

      Like the RIAA, you mean?

    12. Re:Justice sure feels good by CrazedWalrus · · Score: 1

      Who says it has genetic roots? I always just figured it was a learned behavior after being screwed more times than we care to remember.

      The reason I like to see these bastards get nailed to the wall is that they're usually attacking people who were minding their own damn business and not looking for a fight to begin with. The victim usually is completely unprepared for the fight and has significantly fewer resources than the attacker.

      If there's such a thing as a cooperative gene, then I'd say that it feels good because opportunistic sociopathic assholes are the antithesis of cooperation.

      Whether it's the opposite of our genetic coding, or part of our desire to see the underdog win, I don't know, but I agree -- it sure feels good to see sleazeballs get their just desserts.

    13. Re:Justice sure feels good by perlchild · · Score: 1

      We are built to be selfish, as long as it benefits the group. Natural selection decides what you express in the group, so you can't be un-groupishly selfish. You can't be ungroupishly selfless either.

      But what you do, if it doesn't benefit the group, isn't likely to outlast you, unless you become immortal, somehow. Selfish or selfless... are abstract, survival is very concrete. The genes don't code one behaviour over the other, it's just "not too much of an asshole" are less likely to be selected against...

    14. Re:Justice sure feels good by dubl-u · · Score: 3, Informative

      can genes code for behaviors that are detrimental to the individual but good for the gene pool overall? Genes generally code for behavior that is good for genes. A gene for you to treat family well doesn't give a shit about you personally; your family members are likely to have the same gene, so it's just being good to other copies of itself.

      Those seriously wondering about this topic should read The Selfish Gene (Richard Dawkins's first book, wherein he coined the term "meme"). Then follow that up with Good Natured: The Origins of Right and Wrong in Humans and Other Animals. They're two very readable books by two real scientists, and they have rocked the worlds of everybody I have lent them to.
    15. Re:Justice sure feels good by bill_kress · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yes, but your benefit from injustice is likely to be much greater.

      A company distributing a significant amount of its profits to all its employees might double all their salaries and be fair, but the top few management people could no longer draw $10m salaries for screwing the company up....

    16. Re:Justice sure feels good by PRMan · · Score: 1

      Be careful, you might end up proving the existence of God...

      --
      Peter predicted that you would "deliberately forget" creation 2000 years ago...
    17. Re:Justice sure feels good by Toonol · · Score: 1

      I'm just wondering why, genetically speaking, it should feel so good to hear about justice being served? Justice, fairness, reciprocity, selflessness: these things naturally feel good to most people, while their opposites usually feel bad, even when they have absolutely nothing to do with us.

      I think you have to go to another level of abstraction. Humans need a rational universe, or else we have no control. We've evolved to believe in cause and effect, and many universal laws of physics are practically instinctual (such as ballistics). The emergent ability to be rational in a seemingly rational universe is the greatest survival trait we've acquired.

      Because of that, when we see things that just don't make sense, we feel uneasy. This can range from simple perceptual stuff, such as an optical illusion or a shadow that doesn't seem to belong, to advanced psychological and philosophical matters. Why did she laugh at that? or why does he do worse work but gets paid more? These aren't just illogical, they are illogical in an upsetting way that feels a bit like the world isn't making sense right now. Seeing a woman attacked for a common sense statement is a bit like tossing a ball and seeing it veer to the left. It mucks with our sense of the world, and trying to make sense of the world is what humans do. Having a sensible resolution like this reaffirms that we do have a chance at understanding the world, and maybe someday getting laid.

      /Whoops, did I say that last bit?

    18. Re:Justice sure feels good by RobBebop · · Score: 1

      If sex was used to diffuse social tension, I think you'd see people start arguments over nothing just to end up in bed after their night at the bar.

      Man: Hey lady! You are sitting in my seat!
      Woman: But I've been here all night.
      Man: Doesn't matter. That seat is my territory and you'd better move or I will get real angry.
      Woman: You know what? Fuck you, too. And you can can have your stupid chair because their is too much tension here.
      Man: By any chance, could I help you relieve your tension?
      Woman: I don't see why not. My hotel is across the street. Follow me!

      --
      Support the 30 Hour Work Week!!!
    19. Re:Justice sure feels good by ScrewMaster · · Score: 1

      Justice, fairness, reciprocity, selflessness: these things naturally feel good to most people, while their opposites usually feel bad, even when they have absolutely nothing to do with us.

      Honestly, it is hard to say how much of that is heritable, and how much is learned, cultural in nature (this particular argument goes back centuries.) Look at much of the Oriental world, for instance. Doing what Westerners would call "bad" things is tolerated, so long as one is not caught. Only at that point is it considered wrong. That's in diametric opposition to the Judeo-Christian ethos, which is more along the lines of "don't do bad things in the first place, because, well, they're bad." Who decides what is actually considered "bad" is often up to some debate, of course.

      It's impossible to make wide generalizations of this nature across all cultures. There are relatively few absolute standards of good and evil, right and wrong, that are accepted by all.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    20. Re:Justice sure feels good by corgan517 · · Score: 2, Funny

      how dare you denigrate the monkeys like that!

    21. Re:Justice sure feels good by dubl-u · · Score: 1

      Yet our economic system is based on the premise that individual profit is most rewarding to individuals. You misunderstand. That's like saying our justice system is focused on criminals. While technically true, the point for both is still net shared benefit.

      There are two reasons the economic system appears to focus on individual profit. First, that takes the minority of truly greedy and/or power-hungry people and channels their activities into something that's net positive. Second, if you aren't very careful to make it work for the individual, you open it wide up for all sorts of theft, gaming, and other anti-social behavior.

      It's counterintuitive, I realize, but designing for greed permits niceness, while presuming niceness gives greed free reign.
    22. Re:Justice sure feels good by grendelb · · Score: 1

      All chimps, including bonobos are African, not South American. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

    23. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      You mean this isn't how it's done now? Dammit, no wonder I never get any play...

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    24. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      Nicely put. But there is a positive feedback loop in our economic system that is not damped by an effective check or balance. Money gives one more power to influence the economic system itself, to influence valuation for various goods and services. And that lets one make more money than others without benefiting society. This leads to a runaway concentration of wealth in the hands of those least likely to care about the community, and most able to treat ruthlessly with their fellow man.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    25. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      Damn it, why have I been saying they are from South America? I even link to their wiki page on occasion. I feel like a total dolt now, thank you very much. ;)

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    26. Re:Justice sure feels good by TempeTerra · · Score: 1

      If co-operation is beneficial for groups, co-operation by an individual will benefit the group and thereby themselves, reinforcing that behaviour in the gene pool.

      If a group is largely co-operative, defecting (in the terminology of the prisoner's dilemma) may benefit you greatly and be a detriment to the group as a whole. This would be selfishness, since only you benefit.

      If a group is mostly co-operative but there are occasional defectors, it is to the benefit of the group to exile or beat the living crap out of the defector, since they are harming the group - and thereby reducing the reproductive success of defectors - so this should be reinforced.

      In a pre-rational species, behaviour would be reinforced by associationg good feelings with successful behaviours. This can arise without any planning if individuals start with randomly genetically coded preferences or dislikes for behaviours and are (naturally) selected for if they like beneficial behaviours.

      Finally, since people generally like co-operating (even without a clear benefit to them) we can assume that it has been beneficial in our recent evolution. It should also feel good to hear about justice being served, since that is a natural pairing with enjoying co-operation.

      Also, in my experience people who say that humans are inherently selfish are just pushing an agenda, probably a religious one, which says that you should submit to their benevolent control because you don't know what's best for you.

      Of course this is all an extremely simplified view. There should be an equilibrium between co-operation and defection which is based on how easy it is to successfully defect. This would imply that people should enjoy gaining by defection BUT only if they are not found out and punished by the co-operators, even though they are themselves co-operative in most situations.

      Then we get into gossiping, so we know who has defected in the past... but spreading false rumour then becomes a successful defective behaviour as long as you're not found out.

      And there are Us vs Them issues where groups can co-operate within themselves, but still defect relative to other groups without wrecking internal co-operativeness. This tends to have a genetic basis, since co-operating with your relations at the expense of strangers increases your genes' reproductive success, even if the total result is damaging to society in general.

      That last point is, I think, the largest problem with our society at the moment. Praising the defective actions of people in your in-group while refusing to co-operate with an out-group without rational cause is rife, from school sports teams all they way up to international relations. It is something that happens most often when we go with 'gut feelings' instead of reasoning, and is the natural result of fear-mongering in the media and by government.

      Boy, what a rant. I hope some of that was useful.

      --
      .evom ton seod gis eht
    27. Re:Justice sure feels good by evanbd · · Score: 1

      Generally such concentrations have a negative impact on the total amount of wealth created in the transaction. Look at the economics of monopolies for a good example -- they move some of the economic surplus from consumer surplus to producer surplus, but there is less total. Combine that with sublinear value of wealth (the first $1000 is worth more to me than the next $1000), and you find that injustice to concentrate wealth is not only most likely to hurt any one individual, but will do so on average as well (even after you account for the one "lottery winner").

    28. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      Very nicely put. That's it, from now on I'm not ranting myself, I'm just asking leading questions. ;)

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    29. Re:Justice sure feels good by iq+in+binary · · Score: 1

      Yes.

      And yet there is not even ONE example of this actually depriving society of anything. Gates? Rockefeller? Name any one of today's actual billionaires and I'll show you a life-changing philanthropist.

      Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to iterate this time and time again, but to a new audience every time.

      The only way anybody gets truly wealthy in this country is by bringing other people there with him. Most of the wealthiest people in this country were/are philanthropists.

      You get there by bringing other people with you.

      You name me any man worth at least one hundredth of a cent per dollar of our nation's money in the national reserves (not many, at all), and I'll show you a philanthropist, I guarantee you.

      --
      Of all the Universal Constants, here's one I know: Nice guys finish last ;)
    30. Re:Justice sure feels good by kitgerrits · · Score: 1


      Maybe just because we can then get the satisfaction of shouting: 0wned!

      Rooting for the underdog helps you believe that one man (maybe even you) can make ad difference.
      Rooting against a big corporation (or lawyer) helps you believe that no-one is invincible.

      I still hope that someday G W Bush will be impeached...

      --
      "I was in love with a beautiful blonde once, dear. She drove me to drink. It's the one thing I am indebted to her for."
    31. Re:Justice sure feels good by TheLink · · Score: 1

      As they get older most start realizing that just having huge numbers in their bank account isn't that "satisfying".

      Most want to live on somehow. Having lots of money alone doesn't cut it.

      So some start aiming for power, and some for philantrophy. A rare few find God.

      Most of these billionaires aren't stupid and barring "sudden death" it's pretty silly to be holding on to tons of money when you're dead.

      e.g. "Being of sound mind and body, I spent it all" ;).

      --
    32. Re:Justice sure feels good by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Actually, no.

      Crime is not generally a zero-sum game, it's a -negative- sum game.

      A thief stealing your $1000 LCD-TV and selling it to finance his drug-consumption is likely to get a few hundred for it, tops, whereas you are out the full $1000.

      Which is why crime doesn't just -redistribute- wealth, it -destroys- wealth.

    33. Re:Justice sure feels good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Crime is not generally a zero-sum game, it's a -negative- sum game.

      A thief stealing your $1000 LCD-TV and selling it to finance his drug-consumption is likely to get a few hundred for it, tops, whereas you are out the full $1000.

      Which is why crime doesn't just -redistribute- wealth, it -destroys- wealth.

      At which point here did the TV get destroyed ? Because surely whoever bougth it is either going to use it himself, or sell it forward for more money.

      Thievery doesn't destroy wealth, as long as whatever was stolen isn't destroyed and the act of thieving itself doesn't cause damage (like broken windows or locks to gain entry).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    34. Re:Justice sure feels good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      If sex was used to diffuse social tension, I think you'd see people start arguments over nothing just to end up in bed after their night at the bar.

      Isn't this almost a stereotype in many forms of fiction ? Two people meet, can't stand each other, but eventually end up becoming a couple. Belgarion & C'Nedra, Han & Leia, almost all anime that has couples period... Sure, these aren't real-world examples, but since this stereotype is so wide-spread and apparently cross-cultural, I can't help but think it has some basis in reality.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    35. Re:Justice sure feels good by Eivind · · Score: 1

      First, frequently thievery -does- physically destroy stuff, like locks or windows.

      Second, thievery forces society to spend resources nonproductively. A burglar-alarm for example costs resources to make.

      Third, even though the physical TV may be the same, the *value* is not. Try selling a TV you bougth yesterday in the shop, you won't get back even -close- to the entire price, not even -with- a receipt and the original packaging.

      That is because people put a value on convenience (large selection in store versus hunting for one-offs used), they value CHOICE (again, you sell only that single one, which mean you're offering less choice) They value LEGALITY -- knowing or suspecting that something is stolen lowers the value of goods. They value -security- and prefer not having to deal with the more shadowy parts of society (which you do have to do if you want to buy a stolen tv) They value -accountability- (perceived or real), in many jurisdictions there are consumer-protection laws which are WORTH something to people. You typically won't be able to take advantage of them with a stolen TV.

      Thing is. A stolen TV is worth less money (to everyone!) than a legal TV in a shop. Even if the two are -physically- identical.

    36. Re:Justice sure feels good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      except that the purchaser no longer has to spend $1000 on a TV in a shop. He now has that $1000 to spend on something else.

      You're out by $1000
      Druggy is up $500
      Purchaser is up by $1000 less the $500 that he DID pay for the TV.

      Thus, zero sum.

    37. Re:Justice sure feels good by Foolicious · · Score: 1

      Is that a definition of justice or the consequences it? If it's merely the consequences of justice, then what's a definition for justice, especially outside of a litigious -type scope (i.e. there's more to justice than some guy getting prosecuted), and -- perhaps most importantly -- who gets to decide what's just and unjust? These are the types of questions that make me just want to stick to the lawyer jokes. Much easier.

      --
      Please don't use "umm" or "err" or "erm".
    38. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      Really? You can't see ONE example of someone's obbsessive quest for wealth harming the country? Every rich person makes the world better, there are no rich crooks, liars, cheats, or frauds? What a nice happy shiny magical world you live in. How do I get there?

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    39. Re:Justice sure feels good by Lurker2288 · · Score: 1

      Ah, excellent question. One of the things Richard Dawkins has been living down for years is his popularization of the term 'selfish gene,' precisely because so many people misunderstand it to mean 'genes promoting selfishness.' The reality is more subtle: genes promoting organism-level behavior which produces more copies of the gene will tend (all else being equal) increase in frequency within a population.

      For social creatures, things like fairness and reciprocity are beneficial, because they encourage people to help each other out and to honor commitments. Most species also display punitive behavior--if they catch another 'cheating,' they'll levy punishment against the cheater, even at a cost to themselves. So if being a selfish bastard causes your tribe (or flock, or pack, etc.) to cast you out or kill you, then the genes that produce selfishness will carry a penalty that limits their success. Since cooperation often produces better results (more food, more territory, less violence) than separatism, which in turn lead to more reproduction, it makes sense that genes encouraging cooperative behavior (including justice) would tend to predominate in social creatures.

      If you'd like to know more, check out the wikipedia article for 'reciprocal altruism,' or even better, pick up Steve Pinker's 'How the Mind Works,' an outstanding book that considers the possible evolutionary underpinnings of behavior.

    40. Re:Justice sure feels good by dubl-u · · Score: 1

      Nicely put. But there is a positive feedback loop in our economic system that is not damped by an effective check or balance. Money gives one more power to influence the economic system itself, to influence valuation for various goods and services. And that lets one make more money than others without benefiting society. This leads to a runaway concentration of wealth in the hands of those least likely to care about the community, and most able to treat ruthlessly with their fellow man. That's a totally legitimate worry, and it's something we have to keep our eyes on. However, I can think of four effective checks on this.

      The most obvious is satiability. A lot of people get enough of whatever they are seeking, and don't work as hard. Most people are like this. Some are insatiably greedy or power hungry, of course. A lot of the ones who aren't are in it because they just like working and making things or doing deals. That's the classic Silicon Valley serial entrepreneur.

      The second check is old age and death. As people get older, most don't perform as well, and many lose their ability to amass wealth. And corpses are notoriously bad deal-makers.

      The third is the the effect behind the saying, "from shirtsleeves to shirtsleeves in three generations". A common pattern in the US is that some unprivileged person makes a bundle, and his children grow up in wealth. But because they've had a soft life, they don't have the emotional balance or the skills necessary to even maintain their wealth, let alone increase it. So the third generation (or fourth) is back working for a living.

      The fourth is that a lot of people who have built up fortunes give them away. Warren Buffett and Bill Gates are two great examples, but there are plenty of smaller ones, too. The sociopath entrepreneur exists, but is relatively rare. Making money involves extensive and skilled collaboration, and since you can't take it with you, it's pretty natural that a lot of the great fortunes end up using it to improve the world they've studied so intensely.

      Yeah, there are some neofeudalists who would love to change this. But historically, they haven't been a huge threat; I can't think of a major business player of today who has a name like Carnegie or Stanford.

      As far as threats to democracy go, I worry more about large corporations and political dynasties. The large corporations aren't bound by any of those checks, and are frequently controlled by a series of dubious characters. Political dynasties seem to have power that's much more readily transferable. George W Bush strikes me as a bigger threat to democracy than the top ten American billionaires combined.
    41. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      The top ten American billionaires include four members of the Walton clan of Wal-Mart fame. Rather undercuts some of your arguments. And the majority of American billionaires did not come from poor working class backgrounds. Many of them came from already wealthy families.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    42. Re:Justice sure feels good by PieceofLavalamp · · Score: 1

      Because of the power of organization. Organizations help you survive and thusly reproduce. The strongest organizations are filled with people able to cooperate and work fairly together.

    43. Re:Justice sure feels good by PitaBred · · Score: 1

      No, they don't teach each other things. Wild chimps only learn by watching other chimps... there is no active teaching going on, no slowing down of actions or "explaining" of steps to things. And yes, they do co-operate, but they are never altruistic through choice. If they get screwed out of a meal by a dominant chimp when cooperating, they'd rather just let the food go than cooperate to get it. Watch the National Geographic channel sometime ;)

    44. Re:Justice sure feels good by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      Absolutely, but tell that to the guy who can either make an extra $5m by doing something questionable, or try to be fair...

      I've found very few people that wouldn't make the choice to screw over others in my life, and those aren't the kind that would end up in the position to make such decisions.

    45. Re:Justice sure feels good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      Third, even though the physical TV may be the same, the *value* is not. Try selling a TV you bougth yesterday in the shop, you won't get back even -close- to the entire price, not even -with- a receipt and the original packaging.

      Which sucks for you but is good for whoever buys from you. To use an extreme example, if you spent $1000 on the TV and someone purchases it from you for $100, you've down $900 but that other guy has just saved $900 dollars. In other words, zero-sum. The amount of goods and the amount of money in the economy is unchanged, so the economy is unaffected.

      After all, no one purchases TVs for their resale value. They purchase TVs to watch TV (or DVDs or whatever). TVs aren't like gold, which only has value because people think it has; a TV is an utility who's value rises from the use you can get out of it. Since that utility is identical in two physically identical TVs, the real value is identical too.

      Thing is. A stolen TV is worth less money (to everyone!) than a legal TV in a shop. Even if the two are -physically- identical.

      But since the value of the TV is in what you can do with it, rather than how much you can get from it, this doesn't matter.

      Besides, a legal TV in a shop is worth nothing to a penniless druggie, while one stolen by him might be worth hundreds of dollars. That's another way of looking at this :).

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    46. Re:Justice sure feels good by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      Actually the whole idea of "Wealth" kinda hurts my mind.

      The thief breaks a window, steps on a couch, drags mud all over the carpet, wrecks an end-table and steals a TV that cost the owner $500 and sells it for $35.

      The homeowner buys a new window for $250 and has the carpets and apolstery cleaned for $100.

      The window shop hires a new employee because of all the robberies in the area, the guy from the carpet cleaning company goes out and buys a round of beer for the guys because of the extra $ he's made this week.

      The homeowner gets $700 from insurance ($150 deductible). He goes and buys a $1000 TV, pulling some money out of his credit card. He's actually happier overall because he's wanted HD for a while and hasn't been able to justify it to his wife.

      Now, this is total fantasy, I'm just saying that it seems to me like there is nothing you can do with money that is in any way predictably bad for the economy EXCEPT for holding it and not spending it. (I think even putting it into the bank gets it back into circulation through loans and stuff).

      And shouldn't even burning money reduce the amount of cash available and therefore reduce inflation by an imperceptible amount.

      I've tried to figure this out for years now, to no avail. I'm seriously considering taking a class on economics but I don't really trust that anyone fully grasps what is going on...

      The one thing I've figured out, it's easy for money to flow up to people who have it, and there it appears to be very bad for the economy (unless the rich person throws a lot of parties and hires caterers and hookers--at least that keeps the money moving). But it seems REALLY REALLY hard to get money to flow down to the lowest levels where it would most quickly be placed back into circulation and do the best for the economy.

      In other words, trickle down is the most retarded financial concept in history, but trickle up would work fantastically, it can't help but work.

      Damn, all this work and the story is so old nobody will read it.

    47. Re:Justice sure feels good by dubl-u · · Score: 1
      Gah. I wrote you a longer reply, but now the back button on Slashdot destroys your comments. Isn't AJAX wonderful? So this will be a bit rushed. Sorry.

      The top ten American billionaires include four members of the Walton clan of Wal-Mart fame. Rather undercuts some of your arguments. Of the four, one is a chairman of Wal-Mart's board, so he's not deeply involved in making things happen. Another runs a modestly successful bank. The other two seem to do nothing of note. I think they're in the middle of the shirtsleeves-to-shirtsleeves chain.

      The actual force here is not the Waltons but Wal-Mart, which is indeed something I worry about. But they're no more sinister than AT&T, and probably less so. Dynasty has little to do with it.

      And the majority of American billionaires did not come from poor working class backgrounds. Many of them came from already wealthy families. I'm not denying that having some money isn't helpful in getting ahead in business. A stable home, a good education, and seeing people handle money well; those things will give you a leg up no matter what you choose to do. But you get that in the top 30%, not just the top 1%.

      Take Bill Gates and Warren Buffett, the top two, for example. Both definitely got a leg up from their families, no denying. But both their families worked; Gates's dad was a corporate lawyer, and Buffett's dad was a stockbroker.

      My point is that dynastic wealth is not a major force in American business. I can't think of any big name in American business who has a railroad tycoon or an oil baron as a great-grandfather.

      That could change, of course, and we should be on guard against it. But so far, any positive feedback loops where wealth brings more wealth don't last across the generations in the US.

      Even within a given generation, those positive feedback loops seem pretty limited in their power. Warren Buffett may have a lot of money, but it's 0.1% of what American citizens control. That leaves plenty of room for the titans to clash against one another; Gates and Ballmer are pretty wealthy, and so are Page and Brin. But they fight vigorously to limit each other's further gains in wealth. And of course the capital markets fund all sorts of lesser coalitions against the titans.

      If you're worried about society-distorting dynastic wealth, turn your eyes to India, China, Russia, and Saudi Arabia. Their versions of capitalism and government are much less robust, permitting a lot more dubious behavior and dubious outcomes.
    48. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      Dynastic wealth is not my primary concern. Based on evidence, I have to agree with your conclusions. Corporations and socioeconomic class issues are far more troubling. A small percentage of the world's population controls a large percentage of the world's resources, corporations and central banks are their tools. A person is not truly free unless they feel secure in their ability to provide for themselves, and our economic system seems designed to make the majority of people feel so insecure in this ability that they simply give in and do whatever the owning class tells th4em to do. While the billionaires of the world may fight each other, that is nothing compared to the viciousness with which they protect each other's interests as members of the owning class. And while theoretically anyone can become a member of the owning class, the indoctrination into that class ensures that almost all wealthy individuals will act according to the same basic game plan.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    49. Re:Justice sure feels good by dubl-u · · Score: 1

      A person is not truly free unless they feel secure in their ability to provide for themselves, and our economic system seems designed to make the majority of people feel so insecure in this ability that they simply give in and do whatever the owning class tells them to do. I agree about 90% with this. I think the owning class is not so big a problem these days, honestly: most capital is mediated through so many layers that it has very little direct influence on day-to-day business, and the post-industrial shift to knowledge and service work has pushed the balance of power away from pure capital in the direction of skilled labor.

      But I agree the modern economic system is still a big problem. I think that's because of corporatism, though, and not capitalism as such. Modern corporations are internally feudal in nature, and they train people in unthinking obedience.

      I think this is primarily a problem with large corporations, where most people, and especially people with power, are largely isolated from real-world input and the corrective effects of free markets. American government was built on the notion of a bunch of small independent land-owners and merchants, with widely distributed power and the inclination to tell tyrants and busybodies to go to hell, and corporatism runs directly counter to that.

      However, I see some positive trends that are reversing that. The command-and-control approaches of Planet 1950s are becoming less and less effective. Building Oldsmobiles may have benefited from a lot of central control, but when your money comes from innovation, your best strategy comes from empowering small teams and turning them loose. Google, for example, is socially pretty flat and cellular.

      Also, the Internet, in reducing the cost of communication and transaction, has further reduced the value (and therefore influence) of capital. I know somebody who is starting a product business, and she has outsourced almost all of it: manufacturing, wholesaling, distribution, retailing, shipping, accounting, and advertising. Twenty years ago she would have needed 20x the capital she's spending just to hire staff, get an office, build inventory, etc.

      The same thing applies in Silicon Valley startups. The necessary amount of capital is probably 5-10x lower than it was in the last bubble. That means many more people are trying and selling a lot less of their equity. Finding good engineers, designers, and business people is much harder than finding the necessary capital right now.

      In the third world, you're seeing a parallel success with microlending. Millions and millions of people are becoming much more independent thanks to small injections of capital allowing them to make much better use of their own skilled labor.

      So in essence, I think the solution to the problem of corporatism is more energetic use of the free market to empower individuals to make their own way. Large corporations have a hard time fighting this in the way that you'd expect; because US capital is so mobile and so returns-focused, they will do anything that makes a buck, and that includes empowering a lot of entrepreneurs.
    50. Re:Justice sure feels good by lazarusdishwasher · · Score: 1

      The one thing I've figured out, it's easy for money to flow up to people who have it, and there it appears to be very bad for the economy (unless the rich person throws a lot of parties and hires caterers and hookers--at least that keeps the money moving). But it seems REALLY REALLY hard to get money to flow down to the lowest levels where it would most quickly be placed back into circulation and do the best for the economy.

      In other words, trickle down is the most retarded financial concept in history, but trickle up would work fantastically, it can't help but work.
      Maybe I am missing something but I don't see much difference between trickle down and trickle up. You have already pointed out that money trickles to the top, and that the economy depends on the money flowing and not stopping at the top. I agree with both of those points.

      From what I understand the theory behind trickle down is that if you remove some of the risk from reinvesting wealth. For example if you lower income taxes people get to keep more of the money they make, and those that make more save more. After lowering the taxes the business owners now have more money in their accounts then they otherwise would have with the previously higher tax rate. If that extra money is enough to hire another employee or more buy machines to make more product. when supply is increases prices tend to decrease. While the businesses are spending more the consumers are buying more(because they have the extra money as well), and if the added volume makes up for the money spent on new employee or machinery then the owner has more money and could potentially start the process over.

      Another possibility is that after lowering taxes the amount saved does not allow the owner to invest in new employees or equipment but they do have enough to give raises to the employees. After receiving raises the employees are happier and supply increases possibly leading to more supply because the workers are happier.

      The point at which trickle down stops working is when people start spending the extra money just because they have it, or can borrow it. Just like before when supply increases prices tend to decrease, In this case the supply of money is increased, so they businesses will either raise prices to make up for the excess money or segment the market buy selling a different version with a different price. This is what happened with the housing market, the economy was always growing so the banks could more easily lend money, and as potential buyers have more money the seller can charge more and thus the prices of houses start going up. As the prices start to rise there is more incentive for someone to buy a house that needs work to try and flip it buy fixing up the house and selling it again, creating demand and raising prices on the less desirable homes as well. Since flippers are taking out loans, and homeowners are taking out higher loans Prices continue to rise. When the prices in one area rise faster than other areas that is how you get the bubbles. Once you have a bubble you either have to slow the feed back loop until the rest of the economy catches up, or you let it burst and fall behind the rest of the economy for awhile.

      I've tried to figure this out for years now, to no avail. I'm seriously considering taking a class on economics but I don't really trust that anyone fully grasps what is going on...
      I am responding as a person who as taken one economics class in college, but from what I have learned is that just like the politicians have their parties, so do the economists. The differences between economic schools of thought are the assumptions made on how the participants of the model will act. All of the schools of economic thought are correct as long as everyone follows the model.
    51. Re:Justice sure feels good by spun · · Score: 1

      I still think there is an entrenched class of people that own and control most of the world's resources, and there is far less social mobility in either direction between this class and the rest of us than many would like to admit.

      I would have no problem with capitalism if there were some kind of base level guarantee of resource availability to everyone. As it is, I feel that the owning class uses economic coercion to keep resources out of the hands of the working class. The goal is cheap labor. Almost all conservative policy can be seen as an attempt to devalue labor, and overvalue capital.

      While the influences you mention are real and effective, I believe there are conscious counter-forces at work seeking to destroy those effects and maintain the status quo. Corporations as such may be slow moving and unable to deal with these new threats, but corporations are run by a certain class of people. Look at the boards and CEOs of most major corporations and you will see similar backgrounds and attitudes. In fact, many owning class people sit on the boards of many different Fortune 500 companies, even ostensible competitors.

      In short, I don't think problems of inequality and injustice will be solved by 'more free markets.' Less regulation of markets will only make it easier for the more ruthless to dominate.

      --
      - None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
    52. Re:Justice sure feels good by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The thief is producing nothing of value and only taking from society. He's a drain. If half the population didn't work but only stole, do you think that there would be the same amount of wealth if only 5% did?

    53. Re:Justice sure feels good by Raenex · · Score: 1

      The only way anybody gets truly wealthy in this country is by bringing other people there with him. Good grief, where do you think all the wealth came from to be concentrated into one individual? They did it by crushing others and charging monopoly prices. Gates. Carnegie. Rockefeller. So they get soft in their old age and start giving their money, to protect their reputation (and if they're religious, maybe because they're worried about judgment).
    54. Re:Justice sure feels good by ultranova · · Score: 1

      The thief is producing nothing of value and only taking from society. He's a drain. If half the population didn't work but only stole, do you think that there would be the same amount of wealth if only 5% did?

      Whether the thief contributes or not is irrelevant to whether thievery is a zero-sum game or not.

      For the record, I think that the RIAA, MPAA, other copyright organizations and patent trolls are a far greater drain on economy than all the non-incorporated thieves combined. And of course they have a chilling effect on culture and technology too, aside from purely monetary damage they cause.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

    55. Re:Justice sure feels good by o2sd · · Score: 1

      I've tried to figure this out for years now, to no avail. I'm seriously considering taking a class on economics but I don't really trust that anyone fully grasps what is going on...

      Yes, this is a fascinating question, and the lack of an answer falls into the same category as why it's hard to collect taxes and the reason communism failed.

      The fact of the matter is, human life is a series of transactions. We transact in our social interaction and economic interaction, and the outcome of each transaction is (unusually), non-deterministic. The non-deterministic outcome is a function of highly variant motivations of the individuals involved in the transactions.

      This makes (macro) economics a science of things that happened once, but are unlikely to happen again, and consequently, most economic theory, postulates and opinion are total and complete nonsense.

      But what of micro-economics? The problem here is one of computational processing power. i.e. there just isn't enough of it to track economic activity in real time.

      The one thing I've figured out, it's easy for money to flow up to people who have it, and there it appears to be very bad for the economy (unless the rich person throws a lot of parties and hires caterers and hookers--at least that keeps the money moving). But it seems REALLY REALLY hard to get money to flow down to the lowest levels where it would most quickly be placed back into circulation and do the best for the economy.

      Now this one we (our civilisation) does have an answer to. The fundamental mistake made in addressing this 'problem' is the common confusion between 'state' and 'process'.Confusing 'state' and 'process' is a common enough mistake in problem solving. In the case of the flow of money, unless one can move past this erroneous assumption, it is not possible to understand what is going on.

      Being 'rich' or being 'poor' is commonly thought of as a 'state'. That is, a state of poverty or a state of wealth. Our language, our education and our culture encourage this idea for reasons unknown. But neither poverty or richness are states, they are processes.

      They are a particular type of process known as a 'feedback loop'. That is, if you do certain things along a certain timeline, it will lead you to greater poverty or greater wealth, and the poverty or wealth encourages you to keep following the same process (i.e. doing the same things at the same time), which leads to greater poverty or wealth.

      Those who are wealthy already understand this, but those who are poor often do not, and will refuse to change their behaviour in any case if the process is made apparent to them.

      Both processes (for becoming poor or becoming wealthy) are immutable, inevitable and inviolable, so there is nothing you can really do about it except decide which of the processes you wish to follow. They also tend to be the reason why societies, civilisations and empires rise and fall, so you can see the inevitable coming decline of an empire from the level of helplessness in it's poorer citizens.

      --
      - Nothing to see hear.
    56. Re:Justice sure feels good by Raenex · · Score: 1

      Whether the thief contributes or not is irrelevant to whether thievery is a zero-sum game or not. How is the thief "earning" money to buy drugs? By damaging others. This is not a zero sum game.
    57. Re:Justice sure feels good by Eivind · · Score: 1

      Nope. Really, REALLY no. Stop. Think !

      He did not get the TV for $500 because the thief (or the dealer) decided to be nice to him and give him a product worth 1000 for 500. No, he got it for 500 because that was the highest price the thief managed to get for the stolen TV. (if he could somehow sell it for 700 he WOULD!)

      The -reason- he could not manage to get more than 500 -- allthough a shop manages to get 1000 for a physically identical TV is that the stolen TV really genuinenly is WORTH less.

      It is true that the tv was not physically harmed, and thus -physically- it has the same PRACTICAL value as it used to have. But that is not all that counts. I gave already a long list of other things that contribute to VALUE. Even just "not supporting crime" has a VALUE to most people.

      What would -you- rather buy, a probably-stolen unknown-origin physically-apparently-unharmed TV for $700, or a brand-new with-receipt from-well-respected-company in-original-carton TV for $1000 ?

      I'm guessing that you'd go for the $1000 one. But that you'll still claim that no value is destroyed in the process that converts the first to the latter. (at half price you migth be tempted, at a low ENOUGH price many would choose the stolen one. So we can argue about how MUCH value is destroyed by stealing. But it's definitely a loss)

    58. Re:Justice sure feels good by dubl-u · · Score: 1

      I still think there is an entrenched class of people that own and control most of the world's resources, and there is far less social mobility in either direction between this class and the rest of us than many would like to admit. Worldwide, definitely; I was thinking mainly about the US. But even there, people certainly overestimate social mobility, and the big rise in income inequity lately is a big cause for worry. The Economist has had some great articles on that over the last few years, so if you're looking for good numbers back up your argument, it's worth a visit to the library.

      I would have no problem with capitalism if there were some kind of base level guarantee of resource availability to everyone. As it is, I feel that the owning class uses economic coercion to keep resources out of the hands of the working class. From the studies I've seen, there are two main components to the kind of equality that breeds social mobility.

      One is education. Making sure that every child is well educated regardless of background is a giant factor. The US is so-so at this; some places do well, and some poorly. I would love, love, love for this to be better.

      The other is the ease of starting and running a business. Here, the US excels. The paperwork burden is pretty low, both for starting and running. Liquid capital and credit markets make it relatively easy to get money. Our legal and governmental systems are comparatively fair and well run, so a competitor can't just bribe somebody to have your business shut down or steal your assets. Labor and tax laws are pretty fair to small businesses, and culturally we're very accepting of pretty much anybody that can pay their bills and turn a profit. So my female latina pal that I mentioned had little trouble starting a business, focusing much of her energy on the stuff that matters, rather than bullshit that in other countries would stop her cold.

      In short, I don't think problems of inequality and injustice will be solved by 'more free markets.' Less regulation of markets will only make it easier for the more ruthless to dominate. I'm sorry to say that you may have fallen for a bit of conservative propaganda here.

      Efficient, effective markets are not necessarily unregulated ones. The US stock exchanges, for example, are among the most effective in the world, but they are heavily regulated. The trick is that they do it in such a way to maximize transparency, liquidity, participation, and velocity, while reducing transaction costs and non-core risks.

      An effective market minimizes friction and maximizes competition. It's a fine line; you can fail by overregulating, which raises barriers to entry and reduces competition. Or you can fail by underregulating, creating markets where monopoly or oligopoly have equally bad effects.

      So sometimes people who push for deregulation are up to something good. Airline deregulation, for example, has dramatically reduced ticket costs and increased options available, with safety improving, thanks to a good mix of safety regulation and enlightened self-interest.

      But AT&T and Comcast pushing for non-neutral networks is a great example of bad deregulation. They used previous monopoly power to fight off fair competition, creating an oligopoly in ISPs. And they now want to use the oligopoly power to create barriers to entry on the Internet.

      The way I look at it, although some rich people are perfectly civilized and use their fortunes to do good (like the billionaires pushing to restore the estate tax), many will always be venal bastards. The judo-like trick is to harness their venality for the public good, and well-run markets are stunningly effective at that.
    59. Re:Justice sure feels good by Weedlekin · · Score: 1

      "It seems our genetics code for cooperative behaviors over selfish ones. Is this simply the selfish best choice for individuals, to cooperate with each other, or can genes code for behaviors that are detrimental to the individual but good for the gene pool overall?"

      There are many species of group-oriented animals ranging from insects through to the higher mammals who place group safety above individual safety, so it's pretty obvious that genes have been coding for this since animals evolved the strategy of living in organised groups.

      --
      I'm not going to change your sheets again, Mr. Hastings.
    60. Re:Justice sure feels good by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      I guess I don't see how trickle down helps the homeless or the large number of americans who don't pay taxes.

      The more you make, the more you are likely to ignore any savings or put it into the bank, at this point although some goes down, most goes up. The higher up the money gets, the more it seems to flow up.

      On the other hand, if you were to distribute the same amount of money to the poorest 10%, it would immediately flow back into the economy. Even if some goes to drug dealers (worst case), right after that most would flow into auto dealers and bling retailers and on up the chain.

      So let's say that both tend to re-invigorate the economy equally (Even though I don't think they do), All things being equal, wouldn't it be better to give the money to people so that they can make free-market product choices than the bank (where the tax breaks end up I guess) who are more likely to serve those who already have influence and political pull? Sounds much less free-market to me. Not that I'm an absolute believer in free market, but it's better than handouts to banks.

    61. Re:Justice sure feels good by bill_kress · · Score: 1

      I could accept the process thing. My point wasn't that giving the poor money would make them rich, it was that injecting money back into the system would be more effective through the poor. You (and my original post) correctly assume it will end up in the hands of the rich one way or the other, so my point was--why not the other? Why not make the rich at least supply a product to get their money?

      The poor are there anyway, they will probably remain there. What's the argument against making them more comfortable at no real expense and an actual gain to us (injecting the money back into the economy, helping the lower rank of neighborhood stores stay alive, improving public transportation and common services, ...) as opposed to tax breaks that will not be as well invested and will put those neighborhood services into debt (loans to banks) rather than help them become more self-sufficient (sales)?

      Honestly I think the reason for this is that the completely illogical fact that the concept of giving something to the poor just pisses some people off. No reason to be pissed, a homeless person didn't kill their dad or anything. They'd rather see rich people (or better yet, a corporation!) get charity any day regardless of how they use it.

    62. Re:Justice sure feels good by o2sd · · Score: 1

      The poor are there anyway, they will probably remain there. What's the argument against making them more comfortable at no real expense and an actual gain to us (injecting the money back into the economy, helping the lower rank of neighborhood stores stay alive, improving public transportation and common services, ...) as opposed to tax breaks that will not be as well invested and will put those neighborhood services into debt (loans to banks) rather than help them become more self-sufficient (sales)?


      Because by doing that they will become even poorer. I'm sorry if my original point wasn't clear. What you suggest (a handout) is part of the process of people becoming poor. Receiving free money (as compassionate as it may seem), creates problems for people that makes them even more uncomfortable.In order for someone to receive any benefit from a reward, there must be some kind of effort towards it. Think of the cosmonaut's on MIR. Without artificial stress, their bone density decreases in the absence of gravity. The body doesn't put in effort or resources if none are required.


      Honestly I think the reason for this is that the completely illogical fact that the concept of giving something to the poor just pisses some people off. No reason to be pissed, a homeless person didn't kill their dad or anything. They'd rather see rich people (or better yet, a corporation!) get charity any day regardless of how they use it.


      I think they would rather see their corporation receive a handout, thus ensuring their continuing employment. This serves to weaken corporations in the same way as free money to the poor weakens the poor.

      I think the idea that the Government has money is something that really needs to be addressed in the education system. The government doesn't have money. It doesn't make or sell anything. The government is a collective pool of money from all taxpayers that is supposed to be building things (roads, bridges, armies) that are beyond the resources of the individual.

      It is the 'common wealth' as opposed to the 'private wealth'. The idea that we should use the 'common wealth' to give money to poor people (or rich corporations, or rich people) is the complete anti-thesis of what the commonwealth actually is. It is not beyond the resources of the individual (poor or rich) to improve their economic status. Really. Certainly in the United States you could benefit a great many poor people if the common wealth were to be used on repairing your crumbling infrastructure (particularly bridges), instead of maintaining the imperial army. Perhaps you should focus your efforts on that?

      --
      - Nothing to see hear.
  3. Sweet justice by cweber · · Score: 1

    Aaahh the sweet smell of justice done!
    Can't wait for sanctions against this scumbag. Hopefully other overzealus lawyers will take notice too.

    1. Re:Sweet justice by Bobby+Mahoney · · Score: 5, Informative
      Scumbag doesn't begin to classify this guy: He's made a career out of extorting the VICP (Vaccine Injury Compensation Fund), which allows one to file a claim for vaccine injury, with no out of pocket legal expenses, because the court pays attorneys fees, regardless of the merit of the case.

      Paraphrased from Kathy's extremely... "in-depth" blog http://www.neurodiversity.com/weblog/article/149:

      Since June of 2006, Mr. Shoemaker (scumbag) has been paid fees in 22 VICP cases, 15 of which were dismissed.

      Total fees paid to this DB for the DISMISSED CASES are up to $254,291.25.

      Total fees paid for cases which resulted in awards were $330.158.04.

      Oh, and it was 4 hours after this info was published on Kathy's Blog that she was served with the Subpoena.

      --
      !#&*
  4. s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by McDutchie · · Score: 4, Informative

    The blogger's name is Kathleen Seidel, not Katherine. The previous Slashdot story got this wrong as well.

    1. Re:s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe kdawson's name recognition system is only good up to four significant characters.

    2. Re:s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by TheRealMindChild · · Score: 2, Funny

      Cathleen... Catherine... meh. As long as you get the first letter right

      --

      "When life gives you lemons, don't make lemonade. Make life take the lemons back!" -- Cave Johnson
    3. Re:s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by DarKlajid · · Score: 3, Funny

      Let me guess: You don't have a girlfriend, right?

      Ah, forgot that this is Slashdot for a moment. Nevermind, move along.

    4. Re:s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by Bobby+Mahoney · · Score: 4, Funny

      And she calls herself Lill, but everyone knows her as Nancy.

      --
      !#&*
    5. Re:s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by oddaddresstrap · · Score: 1

      Do you mean Betty Jo Bialowski?

    6. Re:s/Katherine/Kathleen/ by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A Firesign Theatre reference! Good show!

      Something was fishy about the butler, obviously a Pisces, probably working for scale.

  5. Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Well, how about that... If only this sort of story were not the exception rather than the rule.

    I have a friend who recently started a small business (he makes board games). On release of his first game, he was immediately sent a letter from a competitor's lawyer demanding either cease-and-desist, or a licensing agreement for the use of the term "Superheroes*". Are you kidding me?! My understanding is that this company routinely threatens any small business (they're fairly small too) that creates a game with "Superheroes" in the name, and threatens legal action or a licensing payment.

    Most of these companies run on a shoestring budget and caved, but my friend hired a lawyer to write an aggressive response, threatening countersuits, etc. My understanding is that he never heard from them again. In an ideal world, this sort of through-the-legal-system extortion and bullying would be severely reprimanded, but in the real world, a small business is generally considered lucky if they only have to shell out a few hundred (or thousand) in lawyer fees.

    * It wasn't really that, but a similarly generic term. I don't want to stir anything up for my friend. Lawyers may be listening!

    --
    Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
    1. Re:Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I will be a lawyer shortly, and I am listening. But on the other hand, part of my motivation to become an attorney was defensive. There's nothing like being your own free legal counsel in business or anything else. (And if it is beyond your field of expertise, you ask a colleague.)

    2. Re:Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      There's nothing like being your own free legal counsel

      Something about having a fool for a client...

    3. Re:Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      On release of his first game, he was immediately sent a letter from a competitor's lawyer demanding either cease-and-desist, or a licensing agreement for the use of the term "Superheroes*". [...]

      * It wasn't really that, but a similarly generic term. I don't want to stir anything up for my friend. Lawyers may be listening!

      It could well have been that considering that Marvel and DC have and enforce a trademark on the term "Superheroes". That is why alternate universes use the term "Supers". It's not that the term "Supers" covers both superheroes and supervillans, it is that the term "Supers" covers their asses from legal threats.

    4. Re:Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by PhreakOfTime · · Score: 1

      I also had a nice 'cease and desist' letter sent to me. Other than trying to suggest that I would be brought up on unspecified criminal charges(yes, criminal), the letter also mentioned copyright and trademark violations that I was being accused of violating. Actually, in one sentence of the letter it accused me of making possibly libelous statements, and in almost the very next sentence, it accused me of knowingly making libelous statements. Granted, by this point I already knew the letter was just thrown together with the amount of thought it takes to blink an eye, as the location this letter was addressed to was not mine, but someone else in my town with the same last name. I would guess that after the post office sent it back to them, they finally found the correct information, even though it was in the WHOIS records for the domains the entire time.

      I had a nice response letter written out, and had it reviewed by more than one other attorney. And more than one time was advised that the less I said to them, the better. In the end I figured that sending this letter would be showing my hand, and since I knew what I was doing was in no way illegal, or libelous, I made the decision to not send the letter.

      By the way, the company who sent this letter, and then demanded I transfer my rights to the domain to them, was Caton Commercial, a real estate company. Being that the content of the sites in question contained linked information that was directly shown on the county courthouse website, I thought it would be better to not tip my hand. In my state, we have what are known as Anti-SLAPP laws, which provide for the awarding of court fees to the defendant in any case which attempts to supress the publishing of public government information.

      In the end, I thought it would just be easier to publish the letter online. It amazes me how people could try such underhanded tactics in this day and age, knowing full well how easy it is for the recipient to publish it online for all to see.

      I imagine the attorney who wrote this knows all of this, and was just trying to make his clients happy and stop bothering him, since it has now been over 60 days since the original letter was written and sent(to the wrong address) and I have not heard any more from them in regard to this .

    5. Re:Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by 2short · · Score: 1

      * It wasn't really that, but a similarly generic term. I don't want to stir anything up for my friend. Lawyers may be listening!

      Was it by any chance a generic term starting with Z refering to a type of undead creature? I have a friend who had a sufficiently negative experience of the sort you relate that I'm shy of making the word show up on a search engine. Well, that and it's fun to be paranoid.

      Note that I've no idea who your friend is, and the other facts presented don't match my friend who had a similar issue. I'd just be amused if those guys suck as much as I think.

    6. Re:Hooray for a bit of legal sanity by Dutch+Gun · · Score: 1

      Yep, I'm sure we're talking about the same folks.

      It's not completely improbably that we both know folks targeted by these guys. Apparently, this is standard operating procedure for them. They've gone after a LOT of people, enough that my friends were actually warned by other vendors at last year's GenCon that they'd be getting a letter from these guys' lawyer.

      --
      Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
  6. I Thought Everybody Knew... by Nom+du+Keyboard · · Score: 1

    the lawyer issued a similar subpoena to a doctor and a Harvard professor under similar circumstances.

    I thought everybody knew you don't mess with Harvard when it comes to legal matters. Even the RIAA has stayed far clear of Harvard Square with their John Doe suits and subpoenas for student information.

    --
    "It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
    1. Re:I Thought Everybody Knew... by godawsgo · · Score: 1

      I still think that the kids of big law firm partners go there and you'd lose a lot more than song royalties if you started snooping about the validity of full iPods of a few of the students there. Why risk it. Its not like the record companies are in pursuit of some abstract natural law restoring the free world to justice...

      --Dawson

  7. What I want to know... by fm6 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    ...is how much in the way of legal bills did Seidel run up getting the supoena quashed. If it was a lot, we should be outraged. And if we're outraged, we should express our outrage in a constructive manner: go to her web site, click on "donate" and drop a few bucks in her kitty.

    And don't say "She can get damages from that shyster for his misuse of the legal system". That's a lot harder to do than people seem to realize.

    1. Re:What I want to know... by sconeu · · Score: 0, Troll

      Except that the Judge appears ready to sanction the shyster. If you can't RTFA, at least RTFS.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    2. Re:What I want to know... by bleckywelcky · · Score: 3, Funny

      I'll drop a few bucks in her kitty, if ya know what I mean. ;) meow.

    3. Re:What I want to know... by rgmoore · · Score: 1

      She's actually doing this pro se, i.e. representing herself, rather than paying for a lawyer. That means she's not paying a huge lawyer bill, but it has still cost her time and effort.

      --

      There's no point in questioning authority if you aren't going to listen to the answers.

    4. Re:What I want to know... by fm6 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I read both. "Sanction" means disciplinary action. Sanctions might include ordering him to pay Seidel's costs, but it's not a given.

    5. Re:What I want to know... by fm6 · · Score: 1, Troll

      Grow up.

    6. Re:What I want to know... by joseph449008 · · Score: 3, Informative

      She filed pro se. I understand Kathleen got some help from knowledgeable friends, but that's about it. The online free speech project at Public Citizen had offered to provide their legal help, but it would seem that Kathleen did such an excellent job with her pro se filing that Public Citizen didn't have to file anything.

    7. Re:What I want to know... by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Well, I assume PC at least taught her how to use this quaint legal language:

      COMES NOW Kathleen Seidel and moves this court, pursuant to Rule 45(3)(A) of the Federal Rules of Civil Procedure, to quash the subpoena issued by Clifford Shoemaker, Esq., on behalf of plaintiffs in the above-captioned case...
    8. Re:What I want to know... by joseph449008 · · Score: 1

      Nope. As you can see from her previous posts, Kathleen investigates legal proceedings extensively, so legalese was not a problem for her. Public Citizen first offered to help a few days ago as I recall.

    9. Re:What I want to know... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      drop a few bucks in her kitty. I really don't think it's that sort of website.
    10. Re:What I want to know... by Ares · · Score: 1

      from what i read in the original story, she wrote the motion to quash herself. so i would imagine not a whole lot.

  8. Society Strikes Back by monxrtr · · Score: 2

    Eliot Spitzer was just the beginning. With all the massive economic damage lawyers have caused businesses and consumers, it will be interesting to see if similar numbers of lawyers can start receiving similar levels of fines and sentences, not to mention regulatory legislation. As it is, perhaps more lawyers graduate these days than MBAs, engineers, and MDs, and the amount of wealth being parasitically siphoned from productive society is approaching Roman Civilization Bureaucratic Collapse proportions.

    I don't think there has ever been such an arrogant caste profession since the days of the Egyptian priesthood. We need to see massive amounts of judges, lawyers, and politicians losing their personal assets and serving lengthy prison terms. Charge them all with bribery, extortion, abuse of power, and put a government ordered price freeze limiting all lawyer wages to $50 hour maximum.

    Fuck "sanctions". This guy needs to be stripped of practicing law ever again, as well as being forced to pay a significant 6 figure fine towards his attempted victim. And we need to see much higher standards and harsher penalties of these "officers" of the "Law".

    --
    "From DNA to P2P, we are all Copycats now. Go Go Copycat Power! Copycat Powers activate! Form of, a Copycat." --monxrtr
    1. Re:Society Strikes Back by DNS-and-BIND · · Score: 1

      Ah, so you'll be calling the shots, and the rest of us will be out there actually, you know, doing it. Doesn't sound like a good division of labor.

      --
      Shutting down free speech with violence isn't fighting fascism. It IS fascism!
    2. Re:Society Strikes Back by ScrewMaster · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I don't think there has ever been such an arrogant caste profession since the days of the Egyptian priesthood.

      Sure we have. They're called "doctors", "politicians" and "Chief Executive Officers", respectively. Granted, many politicians are also lawyers, so there's some crossover but they all they tend to think just as highly of themselves. I will agree that, unlike the other three groups, doctors do provide useful if overpriced services. If all physicians suddenly disappeared tomorrow many of us would be in trouble, but if attorneys, politicians and "Chief Executive Officers" vanished from the face of the Earth most of us wouldn't even notice.

      For sure there'd be a lot of nice homes and used luxury cars on the market.

      --
      The higher the technology, the sharper that two-edged sword.
    3. Re:Society Strikes Back by tony1343 · · Score: 1
      Government ordered price freeze on lawyer fees????? Without lawyers we might live in a society where the government would do or could do such things. Good luck finding a good lawyer when you need one. Good idea, let's run all the good doctor's out of the medical field, because we think they make too much, and after that let's go after the lawyers. What other profession do you not like? We should make you the supreme leader, because clearly you have a lot of good ideas and understand how the world works.

      Lawyers are bastards, but you need them. People hate lawyers, but when a company poisons ground water, then they're okay. It's like how everyone hates Congress, but often like their Congressman. Look at nations where there aren't enough. Look at the Corporate Scandals that barely go punished in Korea - there aren't enough lawyers there. It's hard to get justice in countries without enough lawyers. Who was protesting against Musharraf in Pakistan? That's right lawyers. Of the 55 delegates to the Constitutional Convention, 35 had legal training or were lawyers.

      The rule of law is exceptionally important, and without it, I don't think a developed society could exist. Of course when lawyers step out of line, they need to be punished. A bitch slapping by the Court will probably be enough for this guy though; don't think we need to take his livelihood away from him. Some cases like this need to come up with lawyers being punished, as to provide a warning to other lawyers.

      Anyway, you should calm down. Engineers and scientists are great and society needs them. But society also needs doctors, lawyers, businessmen, construction workers, policemen, and just about every other job. The system has problems, which we should try to fix, but I'll take it over the systems that a lot of other nations have any day.

  9. Mo pare tup odpa entu mod arentu Modparentup by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ..eh was having an odd repetitive moment...

    Your comment violated the "postersubj" compression filter. Try less whitespace and/or less repetition in the subject line.

    So I guess I use spom tools

  10. In Communist China by s1d · · Score: 1

    Subpoenas quash bloggers. No, really!

    --
    In Soviet Russia, everything runs linux.
    1. Re:In Communist China by Trails · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Tanks squash bloggers. No, really!
      Fixed that for ya.
  11. pro bono? by l2718 · · Score: 5, Informative

    I am not sure that there were any legal fees. According to her blog post, Ms. Seidel was represented by the First Amendment team at Public Citizen. Perhaps Public Citizen should be the ones recovering some of the expenses? In any case they should be congratulated for the win!

    1. Re:pro bono? by fm6 · · Score: 1

      OK then, express your outrage with a donation to PC.

    2. Re:pro bono? by joseph449008 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Public Citizen offered to help, but AFAIK, they didn't have to do anything. Her pro se motion to quash was top-notch. That said, Public Citizen could presumably take this further if Kathleen and they think it's warranted.

  12. Off Topic - Your Sig by MozeeToby · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure if you realize this, but the person linked to in your sig was tyring (albiet unsuccesfully) to make a joke. You see, you were talking about jury nullification (i.e. the jury ignoring the judges guidelines and doing what they think is best despite the rules); he provided a (straw man) example to show how annoying/stupid he thinks jury nullification is.

    Besides that, if he modded you down, then commented his moderation dissapears anyway so even if he was an ass, he was also stupid.

    1. Re:Off Topic - Your Sig by fm6 · · Score: 1

      Your interpretation is not without merit. However, I think that if it was a joke he would have said "rules" not "guidelines".

      Joke or not, the link seems to serve its primary purpose, which is to discourage people from modding me down just because they disagree with me.

    2. Re:Off Topic - Your Sig by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Besides that, if he modded you down, then commented his moderation dissapears anyway so even if he was an ass, he was also stupid. ...except if he made a sock puppet account to make the AC comment.
    3. Re:Off Topic - Your Sig by geekboy642 · · Score: 1

      Or, like I've done several times when I wanted to comment on *why* I modded something up or down, he logged out and then made an anonymous comment. (yes, I checked afterwards, the moderation stays)

      --
      Just another "DOJ fascist authoritarian totalitarian bootlicker" -- Zeio
    4. Re:Off Topic - Your Sig by spiffyman · · Score: 1

      No offense, but I call bs. In my first few months as a member, I tried the same thing. My moderation was wiped, across the board.

      Does slash record IPs for this kind of stuff? Frankly, it should. Allowing the sort of trick that you (claim) you do and that I tried means eliminating the requirement that mods not post in the discussion. A similar trick would involve making an alternative login and garnering karma bonuses, etc., by modding up your own posts, and this patently violates the spirit of the system.

      --
      So you can laugh all you want to...
    5. Re:Off Topic - Your Sig by fm6 · · Score: 1
      Well, maybe I'm imagining things. Or maybe your are. Or maybe we both are: when you have this much randomness, it's very easy to see a pattern where there is none.

      Frankly, it should. Allowing the sort of trick that you (claim) you do and that I tried means eliminating the requirement that mods not post in the discussion. Huh? I don't follow that. I'm reminding moderators that there are rules for moderation that should not be ignored. What does that have to do with the no-posting rule?

      Anyway, I don't view it as a trick. I really do believe that the current moderator pool sucks. There were some changes a few years ago that I think really hurt the mod system.
  13. Bravo by MarkvW · · Score: 2, Informative

    From looking at what looks like the email notice of order, it appears that the blogger may have represented herself. That is simply great. Reference to the order also implies that the lawyer seriously overstepped the rules by issuing a subpoena to a nonparty without court approval. I would expect sanctions in such a context. If the blogger gets serious, she can maximize sanctions if she can demonstrate a pattern or practice of similar such abuse. I wish her good luck.

    1. Re:Bravo by jjohnson · · Score: 2, Informative

      The first link includes her response to the subpoena that was so effective. It's a good read.

      --
      Anyone who loves or hates any language, platform, or manufacturer, doesn't know what they're talking about.
  14. Ex Parte by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    This must be why the RIAA does everything ex parte, so they don't get rulings like this...

    For those who don't know, ex parte means that the other side isn't there. In RIAA cases, they misjoinder all defendants located at a single ISP together, and push for expedited discovery in an ex parte hearing and drop the case immediately after. This means that the alleged file sharer never gets a chance to respond to them in court because they don't find out in time.

  15. It was quashed on procedural errors by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Folks. If you look at the Judges order, the reason it was quashed was that a deposition subpoena be issued from the court in which the deposition is to occur. Also note, the motion to quash indicated that Attorney Shoemaker was not named as the attorney on the subpoena. Mistakes quashed this subpoena.

  16. In part by ricree · · Score: 2, Informative
    but did you read the rest:

    and Fed R Civ P 45 (c)(1) commanding counsel to avoid burdensome subpoenas.
  17. Should be above your post, but... by Eevee · · Score: 1

    Audrey Farber? Susan Underhill?

  18. Re:Off Topic - AC comments to save mods by jahudabudy · · Score: 1

    I find opening a different browser to make the anonymous post works, so I think it is cookie based, rather than IP. And I do mean different browser, not just a new session of the same browser; it seems as though I have seen that both succeed and fail.

    --
    ...sometimes, in order to hurt someone very badly, you have to tell that person terrible lies. - PA
  19. People with money and no ethics by crovira · · Score: 1

    run to the 'States where they can shirk their duties and responsibilities as human beings.

    Try being a citizen who is uninsured or underinsured or who works for some company like Wall*Mart which sues the people who get some compensation from a health related settlement.

    One in eight people is disabled to some extent or other (15% according to the WHO) but we have 50+ million "working poor" people in this country who are in the same position that they were in before "Tricky Dick" dodged the bullet of people dying naked in the street and passed the buck to the employers by passing laws mandating the creation of HMOs, (those same HMOs who are now denying treatment because it not healthy for their bottom line.)

    The only one who like the current health-don't-care system are those in the 85% who can look mom-and-dad in the eye should they ever fall into the disabled 15% ... through a rifle scope.

    I am all too well aware of the dis-functional state of health-care here.

    --
    MSBPodcast.com The opinions expressed here are my own. If you don't like 'em... Think up your own stuff.