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War Brewing on the Inexpensive Laptop Front
The Christian Science Monitor has an interesting look at the war brewing on the inexpensive laptop front. With everything from the Eee PC to the OLPC, the trend in slimming and trimming seems to be continuing. "The market segment is so new it doesn't have a name yet or even an agreed-upon set of specifications. Intel, the chipmaker, calls the category "netbooks," recognizing that much of what people do on their laptops involves going on the Net. The new machines are also being called ultra-low-cost PCs, mininotebooks, or even mobile Internet gadgets. In appearance, they have the familiar clamshell design, but they're smaller, with seven- to 10-inch screens. They offer full keyboards (albeit with smaller keys) and weigh less than three pounds. Perhaps most important, the majority cost less than $500 - some as little as $299. Intel says it expects more than 50 million of these netbooks to be sold by 2011. It's introduced a tiny, low-power processor to run them called Atom, which puts 47 million transistors on a chip about the size of a penny."
why not give them a Palm or PocketPC with a bit larger display and a keyboard.
what more do they need?
I bet you can get every TYPE of application they need on one of those.
So it wont run MS office or possibly even open office. But do they need much more than a notepad with spellcheck?
Im a gamer, not a grammer major. This post is full of spelling and grammer mistakes.
It was nice for the gasoline prices back then; it will be good for laptop prices now (at least, the mini-notebook prices).
No single raindrop believes it is to blame for the flood.
These devices serve a need - web surf, email, document edit, spreadsheets. If you exclude gamers, thats 80% of the market for a laptop. Personally, lugging a big heavy laptop is a no-go for a lot of us.
www.effectiveelectrons.com "chips that work" Analog, RF, Mixed Signal
Imagine a beowulf cluster of those.
I am interested in getting my bro (15 yrs) an EEE PC to give him some exposure to coding (Python) see if he likes it or not. However, there will be little to no wifi for him to he hoping on... so I am wondering useful the EEE PC will be for this, especially coupled with the small screen and keyboard size. The prize point does make it my top pick right now however. Any one have any experience with this?
"Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
...is the Osbourbe 1.5, if the screen size is anything to go by.
It's a small world and it smells funny; I'd buy another if it wasn't for the money; Take back what I paid (SoM)
If these things just hit the shelves here in Europe, I might finally be able to find a decent replacement for my (long broken) Psion Series III.
I really liked the size of the Psion, and the Windows CE "powered" Pocket PC I get when it broke, just couldn't compare with it, even though it had a CPU that was 50 times faster, and had a color screen. (Among other things, I simply couldn't find any software remotely as useful as the Psions built-in apps...)
The new machines are also being called ultra-low-cost PCs, mininotebooks, or even mobile Internet gadgets
Cool, I always wanted my own MIG!
mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
Remember the NEC Mobile Pro, or the HP Jornada? Practically the same formfactor, reborn.
To me that the natural directions - chips are getting smaller, consume less power, so getting ultra-portable gets more affordable.
Now the limiting factor in usability of those devices seem to be not the processing power, but human interaction.
Both the keyboard and the screen are inevitably small, which makes typing and reading a challenge.
Some say that the future is in portable projectors and virtual keyboards, but that doesn't seem to be the ultimate solution - you need two flat surfaces and some headroom for those, which seems not to be the case for instance in an airplane.
I think challenges like efficient voice commands, or even brain waves (aka NIA) are the solution for input.
For the output again a direct interface to the nerves or to the eye, or else, there will still be need for full sized peripherals, so it won't matter how small can the computers themselves get.
I personally find a full-sized fully-functional laptop much better. You can get them around $500 right now, and most of them will browse the Internet and write up simple office documents quite well. The mini-laptops are nice as a third computer (desktop, laptop, mini-laptop), but like the SMART car, are only useful to those who can afford to have the third one as a luxury.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
From the article, "Many run on an operating system called Linux, favored by the technorati but little known among most computer users."
Is this really a problem? I think that most of the people who don't know Linux aren't really aware of what Windows is either. They'll probably call any windowing system "Windows". As long as there are pictures to click on and it opens windows, it will be of little or no concern.
Have you looked at PalmOS or Windows Mobile? They suck as operating systems. PalmOS isn't even multitasking. Windows Mobile has numerous restrictions relative to desktop Windows. Furthermore, no, they don't offer "every type of application". Many applications for those systems are designed for tiny screens and don't scale up. Also, having two different kinds of apps on the mobile and desktop system is a major headache. If that kind of stripped down OS and application appeals to you, get a keyboard for your phone.
Fortunately, it's not an either/or choice: Linux actually scales really nicely from mobile to desktop devices.
For portable web access, nothing beats an iPhone.
Yes... but can it run Vista...
Looks like the biggest loser from twitter's nonsensical attacks on "M$" has been twitter.
I have a feeling that twitter is the biggest loser wherever he is.
Except if you never heard about a company that sells dumb terminals for a PC including virtualization software. Google for Ncomputing in that case. It's not a laptop.
In the meantime, as I grow, my operations in the USA will be continually diminished until everything is off-shored to cheaper countries. And then, one day, when the people of the USA are so poor that they can't even afford The Shit Laptop, I'll know that the USA is now the cheapest country in the World to manufacture The Shit Laptop and all of my business operations will then be off shored to the USA. You see, by that time, China, India, and the rest of the Third World will be the rich ones and America will be the poor slobs.
The Economists who said that globalization is the right thing for economic growth, will be in other countries making their cushy big bucks because America will not be able to afford to employ them. Of course, they will adjust and completely revamp their theories to coincide with economic reality - they are never right. Economists are ALWAYS behind economic reality - they're always trying to figure out what the markets are doing and they then create theories to describe what reality is doing. In other words, economists don't have a fucking clue. The market rules - the economists drools.
Sincerely,
The Rich Elite
P.S. Suck it peons!
Except every one of these machines is capable of running Windows, and most of them come with XP installed, either as standard or as an add-on option.
So yah, MS is really getting their asses kicked on this one.
Why are these machines so expensive? You can get a core duo lappy with a SXGA 15" panel, 2GB/160GB and a DVD burner for $650 brand spanking new (bluetooth, centrino, all that... from Dell) so why can't I get 200MHz single-core, bluetooth and maybe wifi, a VGA-res 16-bit color transflective TFT (say, 5"?) and an SD slot or two (3xSDIO+SDHC would be ideal, barring more slots) for around $200 or less? Four hours is sufficient battery life, although I would like more. I'm not going to write a novel on it. For that matter, why is an XO $300? Bah, humbug.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Contravening my sig again, but how much did intel pay you to post this comment? Products have existed in this space since the 1980s from GRiD computer. The market for handheld computers was created by Palm Computing. Nokia brought out the first credible, modern webpad. Intel is an also-ran in this area.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Why do the OLPC and Classmate keep getting included in these articles?
Don't get me wrong, I have an OLPC, I love it... but the OLPC was only available for individual consumers for a month, is no longer, has no plans on being available to us again, and was never designed for us in the first place, but instead designed to be available to governments and to be operated by children. The Classmate is in the same boat as well. Which naturally puts these in a class completely separate (not arguing better or worse, just separate) from the rest of these 'netbooks' referred to, certainly completely different than the EEEpc.
In short, they has no place being compared to the new wave of sub-mini-net-whatever-books.
So not to repeat, but why does everyone insist on including them?
Those weren't quite as powerful, so I suggest we call them High performance ultra-low-cost PCs (Hulc PCs). To further define the genre, all devices should be painted green.
It seems like when you're dealing with price points of one to several hundred dollars, this is a big deal for free software, specifically Linux. When you're talking about adding anywhere from 25% to 100% of the cost of the computer just for the operating system, it paints things in a different light. That, and you'd have to put an older (soon to be non-supported) version of Windows (XP) on the thing. I can't see these running Vista anytime in the near future.
Should be interesting to see how this impacts the OS playing field...
Irony: Agile development has too much intertia to be abandoned now.
IT fails M$. Today, you can buy a laptop for $300 that works great for what you want or the same thing for $400 that runs XP poorly. The choice is obvious and it's going to become more obvious when it's $200 vrs $300 and the performance and feature gap widens. M$ only dominates because they have preloads and subscription or begware replacements won't work. No one is going to buy a $200 computer that's coin operated or advert crippled when they can have the same thing without those problems. Face it, it's over for the Soft.
No calls now, I'm
OpenPandora.org
In theory I am an agnostic, but pending the appearance of radical evidence I must be classed as an Atheist.
so long as it supports remote desktop connection..
I can run the horsepower I have at home just fine.
every day http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Random
The OLPC looked like an awesome product when it started. I was designed for use in the middle of no where for children in under developed nations. There was a buy one - give one program going on but that got shut down for some reason.
Lately Negroponte decided it should go with windows instead of the original open source OS, which prompted Bender to resign. And there is a general sense that they have sold out.
For a while it looked promising, I wanted to pick one up. Thought it would be great for camping. Get some PDF books and read it on the go in the open sunlight with a water resistant clam shell and a hand crank power supply. This seemed much better than a Kindle to me.
There was even a lot of DIY home brew hacks going on at first. People using it along with Arduino for some neat applications.
Alas... why must everyone sell out.
Eschew Obfuscation
Anyone posting on this thread should be aware that "inTheLoo" is a sockpuppet account of twitter, one of eight accounts (so far) created by him to game the moderation system.
The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
A full laptop is a hot, heavy, short lived mother to lug around. And is the latest dual core or multi-ghz processor really necessary for anything but gaming, visual arts and number crunching? Something lighter, cooler, and with a longer battery life to surf, email, do some light editing, and read an e-boook seems to be in order for day to day living.
"Consensus" in science is _always_ a political construct.
"...a really good verbal UI."
"Computer. Tea. Earl Grey. Hot!"
Yeah, that will be a big hurdle to get over, but possible.
The other problem I can see that would need addressed is this:
Imagine going into a Starbuck's....packed with caffeinated yuppies yakking to their PC's--it would be overwhelming!
Down With Slashdot BETA!!! I've been around the corner and seen the oliphant; you can only abuse me from your perspecti
I'm not saying you need a super fast machine. On the contrary. You could have a low power computer, but just make it full size.
Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
My eee has a stick of standard DDR2 200-pin in it. Swappable with quite a bit of notebooks out there. Your complaint is analogous to moaning that you can't take memory from your iPhone and stick it in your N810.
I was under the impression the preferred nomenclature was "UMPC". That's what I always hear them referred to as.
Honestly, if a WinCE handheld (meaning pretty much anything running whatever the latest Mobile version of Windows) had a decent sized screen with a resolution of 1024x768 or more, and even the tiniest of actual QWERTY keyboard (like the one on the Rumor cell phone) - it would completely own the world.
.doc or .xls. I need my calendar and the ability to queue up emails for my work mailbox (sync'ed with Outlook when I am anywhere near my work network.) That's about it - anything else is gravy. If my hx4700 had a little bit larger screen (again - big enough to do something useful via TermServ, which it already has installed but is worthless at 640x480) and a keyboard I could use while seeing my screen - I'd be golden.
I use a hx4700 right now and the only two issues stopping it from replacing my laptop for 90% of what I do are - 640x480 screens quit being useful about 12 years ago, and the on-screen touch keyboard at that resolution is a two-fold joke (the keys are way too small to hit with the stylus for any kind of typing whatsoever, and the on-screen kb still takes half the screen, meaning you can't see what you are typing.)
The applications are pretty much there. When I'm on the road I need wifi enabled IE or Firefox to surf the web / do web enabled work. I need to view pictures, maybe edit a
I was hoping the new Eee (with the 8.9" screen) was going to do this for me, but the resolution is still a touch shy (1024x600, when 600 tall is still a little short). I'd eagerly have given up the built-in camera for a little more screen resolution (make or break purchase criteria, actually.)
Glonoinha the MebiByte Slayer
Neither.
It will be Guru Meditation Error.
No one is going to buy the XP version of EEE PC
I will. Fuck off, sockpuppet.
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
They all use standards just not the same ones, they are interoperable though! .0 is still a release and a .1 is still an SP1, what more info do you want from a version number.
RPM -> Deb , no problems
A alpha/Beta is still a alpha/Beta a
IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
The sentence of yours that I quoted is just plain stupid. Yes, it may make some mods think twice before applying a down-mod, but it doesn't make your post sound any more intelligent. It's an argument by tautology. "You may disagree with me, but I'm right!" Like saying "face it", it adds nothing to the discussion other than telling us you really really think you're right.
Being told to agree with you is not in any way persuasive.
The [WinCE] applications are pretty much there. When I'm on the road I need wifi enabled IE or Firefox to surf the web / do web enabled work. I need to view pictures, maybe edit a .doc or .xls. I need my calendar and the ability to queue up emails for my work mailbox (sync'ed with Outlook when I am anywhere near my work network.) That's about it - anything else is gravy.
To the road-warrior business traveler, maybe.
The platform is still pretty useless to the application developer, the artist, the musician, the scientific researcher, etc...
Seriously, if all you need to do with a laptop is surf websites, then an iPod touch is better since it fits in your pocket when you're not using it. It also has email, Google Maps and YouTube. No it doesn't have a real mechanical keyboard, it doesn't have IM (yet), the screen isn't as big and the browser doesn't support Flash.
A small laptop may be more powerful and allow you to install other applications without limitations, however if you don't always carry it with you it doesn't really matter.
If it can't fit in my pocket, I'm not carrying it around "just in case".
It already has impacted the OS market...Microsoft has had to promise to keep XP alive to serve the "Netbook" market. They cannot conceed this segment to Linux without a fight and Vista will never run on these little puppies.
-Jay
nt
My problem is that I want a full sized screen. Checking email and going through pdf's, doc's, and spreadsheets, I find I do a lot better with a big screen (or two) than even a normal laptop screen.
Do we think this is going to be taken care of by having docking stations all over the place, or will I need to wait for roll-out, flexible screens?
I'd say it targets (or fails to target) an interesting, new segment these netbooks. Think about finding them in your schools, libraries, hotelrooms etc. It's the new bible.
/. Rss on the loo:)
But the users of these must be of the non-slashdot reading kind (read 'normal'), without any especially demanding or out-of-norm needs.
Personally I wouldn't buy one of these. I own a T61 for my private use, have an Inspiron at work, and for simple net use -such as writing this post right now- I use my beloved Nokia N95. And yes, I read the
Defining Statistics and Social Research
"In this mininotebooks market segment, standards have been ignored. That is, one cannot grab memory from the Eee, stick it into the OLPC system and still expect the system to boot! It's pathetic, just like in the Linux world."
There is no incentive to standard notebook (any size) form-factors. The quicker a notebook is rendered obsolete by repair costs, the quicker a replacement can be sold. If it weren't for used "organ donors", consumer repair of notebooks wouldn't be practical. Since there was never a standard notebook form-factor to begin with, consumers have been screwed since.
"This post is an artistic work of fiction and falsehood. Only a fool would take anything posted here as fact."
while I can see that some people will want XP on their eeepc (my ex boss for example is adamant that he wants it) I bought mine preloaded with linux before the XP ones were mentioned (although there are instructions in the book on how to go about installing XP on it) I thought I would probably put XP on it as I am an Microsoft guy and work in a Microsoft house and avoid Linux mainly because I am put off by the whinging fanbois all the time but I have yet to find something that it does not do quite comfortably with the xandros install that XP would provide. I use it for surfing the web (I am on it right now) and all those things where you want a device that boots in under 16 seconds (like flicking it on to check the bus timetable, using it as a streaming radio by my bedside and updating my twitter). I can see why people will want to buy the XP version but they should really buy the linux version (which has a bigger HD in the new generation 9in ones) and then decide later if they want to pop XP on it.
Be nice, sponsor me: http://jailbreak.ragabonds.org.uk
Eeew, that's gross.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Those were nice devices hardware wise. However, they ran Windows CE. Windows CE sucks ass. Windows Mobile (which is a buggy GUI stuck on a limited Windows CE kernel) still sucks ass after all these years.
These new mini-laptops run full-blown software (XP, Linux) on full-blown hardware (1 or 2 gigs of memory, gigs of file space, USB 2.0, PCIe laptop connectors, etc).
Tandy 100 was a better fit, full sized keyboard and a week on AA batteries.
Some of the "inexpensive" laptops are $600! For a bit over that amount you can get a full blown laptop with larger screen and hard drive, higher resolution and more comfortable keyboard. What am I missing here?
> Except every one of these machines is capable of running Windows...
Yes.... for now. It should be obvious by now that OLPC insisted on an x86 compatible machine, even though it raised the cost and lowered battery life, because they realized doing a deal with Microsoft would eventually be a requirement for political reasons. Same with Asus and the eeepc, plus they were building it in a joint venture with Intel.
Yes, any $250+ machine will probably just wave the Linux flag as a bargining tool to get really good prices (and keep XP available, etc) on Windows.
But none of that is interesting longterm. I'm waiting for the less than $200 pricepoint to open up. Moore's Law says it will get here soon enough. Even better is when somebody builds one based on an ARM all in one solution that won't be able to run Windows regardless how much incentive or political pressure Microsoft brings to bear.
It should be obvious though that there exists a pricepoint that Microsoft can't compete at without risking canibalizing their existing monopoly. That market niche will be the wedge that will eventually lever em out of market dominance.
Democrat delenda est
See twitter? No need to accuse people of stealing just to be clever.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
Check out the HP 2133 Mini-note. 8.9" screen running at ~1280x768.
I think I remember them, they were called notebook computers. I am a firm believer that if you can afford to have both a desktop and a laptop then the laptop should be about the size of a 100 pg spiral notebook. I do not carry all my engineering books with me when I travel, why carry all my files with me when I travel. Take what you believe you need to perform your business and if you find that a certain file would be good for the clients to have then send it to them via email when you get home.
insert inflammatory comment here!
There's a similar offering for the desktop front, the "Nettop". Think really cheap, small fanless box you hook up with full size keyboard, mouse and screen. Intel is really throwing a volley at AMDs margins if they can ship these in volume on time.
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I think you missed the point of 'standard'.... standard != identical.
I choose the best distro for the application:
OpenWRT for my APs - MIPS
Angstrom for my Zaurus - ARM
Debian for my desktops and laptop - Intel/AMD
DSL for my ancient laptop - Intel
Homebrew distro for a dev board I'm working on - ARM
And you know what? They all network, they all talk to each other, they all authenticate against the main server, and they all cooperate nicely. It's not about where some file is, or about the package manager, but about inter-operability. And they all run the same apps more-or-less in more-or-less the same way.
How can it do YouTube without Flash? Unless YouTube is serving up videos in a different format, specifically for iPhones and maybe the Apple TV, that sounds impossible. Please explain. Kthxbai.
Knowledge is power. Knowledge shared is power multiplied.
I want a portable Internet terminal with a full-sized screen, full-sized keyboard, usable pointing device, wireless and wired networking, and sound. Optionally, I want a read/write device for data up/download and a printer. Another desirable feature is "quick reset" which will reset it to either 1) factory condition or 2) the last version I specifically marked as stable.
I'm thinking a laptop with no HD, no CD, but a flash big enough to hold three copies of either DamnSmallLinux or ThinStation. Copy 1 would be read-only from the factory. Copy 3 would be the normal copy and would be a copy of copy 1 when the machine is first powered on. Copy 2 would be the "last known good" version, a copy of copy 3 made while booted to the BIOS setup screen.
I'm thinking maybe 256MB of flash and another 256-512MB of ordinary RAM.
The whole thing should be well under $300.
Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
Making a computer purchase should be more about evaluating your-life style than evaluating specifications and deals at Bestbuy.
Ive seen people type 100 page documents on small 12 inch screen with a stunted keyboard. I've seen people purchase $2500 notebooks for email correspondence. I've also seen people lug around 15 pound notebooks to and from class everyday.
one could get a desktop and a umpc and have no compromises. Instead, people always end up buying a "desktop replacement" for the price of both.
http://www.omnithink.net/2008/04/how-to-select-perfect-computer.html#links
Speak for yourself there, McGruff.
/.
This is
Just the words "heavy" and "big" scare me the bejeezus out of me. I don't know about 5 lbs of plastic...
I do, however, find it ironic that I fear such words as they describe me in a very elegant way.
Microsoft could drop the price in Windows by 50% across the board.
Then they might only have 50% gross margins opposed to 85%. Kinda like Intel has on CPU's.
You all didn't know?
Umm, Windows is HUGELY profitable. One of the the most profitable products ever sold. Ever.
Is it fair to even mention the EeePC and OLPC in the same breath? I mean, the Eee actually shipped, while the OLPC is still floating between vaporware and using it's customers as beta testers.
But, seeing who Nick Negroponte's brother is, it's hardly surprising he would head up a hugely expensive and high profile failure... with his smug elitist attitude firmly intact.
Stay the Course, OLPC.
twitter-hating bastardo!
I know who you are and if I ever see you posting in the clear I'm going to mod you down -500 just for the fun of it!!!
I believe you should do more research before posting:
PocketPuTTY
Did you even try? http://www.google.com/search?q=ssh+windows+mobile
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Ubuntu has got into the early stages of doing ARM distros, so ARM based systems with Ubuntu ease of use are potentially just around the corner.
Linux is still emerging as the primary portable OS. Unlike WinCE (which is a very nobbled thing that tries to look like Windows), ARM Linux is the real thing - using the same kernel code as any other Linux.
Engineering is the art of compromise.
these things are the size of one of those standalone DVD players, which is a little annoying because most of them skip the optical disk. So for me, they're mostly just surfing machines, like my Fujitsu tablet PC...
SO YOU'RE GOING TO DIE: The Comic for Dealing with Death
I had both at one time or another. Nice idea, but they were just ahead of their time. I think I need to go get my Omnibook 300 out of storage. Yeah, I still have one.
I find it weird that there's no mention of Android or the iPhone in TFA. I realize these machines (especially the iPhone) are above the price threshold of this article, but it seems obvious that mobile computing devices and budget PCs are going to/already occupy roughly the same market space. Android especially seems like a strong competitor since the API developers had a clean slate for a whole new platform.. an ideal greenfield for cheap/low-end computing.
> The market for handheld computers was created by Palm Computing.
not even close. psion was operational way before palm were thought off (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psion_Organiser). i find it amusing that their last stab at the portable market was called the netbook. during the 90s every accountant, architect worth their salt had one in the uk and ireland.
the nokia symbian os is the current iteration of their epoc os. tried the nokia 770 myself but it didn't do much that my nokia e61i didn't. was in hospital for 3 weeks recently and was loaned a nokia 810. still used my e61i for web and email as it was more comfortable for me. YMMV
bought a eee pc simply for handling the million pdfs that i have to work with. with a four hour commute it is the perfect laptop. small and sturdy. when i have the space for it i use the eee when i don't i use the nokia. one major advantage of the nokia is battery life. the advantage of the eee is screen size.
Good suggestion, except that when you purchase the Windows XP version, you get Windows XP for the fraction of the cost it if you bought it at your nearby computer shop. If you want to remain legal, particularly because you are running a business, you better go with the Windows XP version from the start if this is what your hart desires. That said, I am a Linux fan boy but I would prefer to get Ubuntu installed on one of these puppies.
Asus should however offer both OSs with the smaller disk version though. This way people can experiment with Linux if they feel for it.
Remember the year 2000? They promised us flying cars. They delivered the PT Cruiser...
> I know who you are
Please share
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
this confuses me. you'd expect this article to mention a lot of awesome subnotebooks/cheap laptops considering it says "everything from the EEE to the OLPC".. matter of fact it ONLY mentions those two products and that's it.. there is no in between because frankly nobody else is coming up with a cheap laptop besides these two.. i'm pissed at Asus because they said their EEE was going to be $200.. i followed them till the day they released the damn things.. and I know $100 more isn't much, but I'd rather buy a cheap Acer for $300 @ Walmart, format it and put Ubuntu on it.. it'd come with a bigger hard drive and more RAM for the price.. even though Acer sucks of course.. I really do hope that SOME company actually pulls through with a $200 MAX laptop that is completely flash/ssd based and comes with all the goodies.. until then, it's still just hype and I'm tired of hearing it..
*plays the Apogee theme song music*
twitter? YOU BET!!!
it never gets old. it just doesn't. civilization will end, the mountains will crumble into the oceans, and when the last man on earth is lying there surrounded by glowing cockroaches, his last thought will be of twitter and his sockpuppets, spelling the name of a company with a dollar sign.
you sah, are a gentleman and a scholar. props. props to you.
That is seriosly the dumbest thing I have ever heard.
The first time I ever saw an EEE (and discovered that they where being sold in NZ, often cool tech like this isn't) was when my sister in law brought one with XP on it, and asked me how to use it.
I did mention that they also came with linux, and she asked if that was a shade of green.
Non MS/Apple OSs freak the little people out, it's that simple.
I want one with linux on it (and not the green either) but I can't justify it to myself since there's still plenty of life in my Dual booting HP.
Read my blog you know you want to
would have the screen from the OLPC. I have an OLPC, and I love it. The keyboard, obviously, is too small (kid sized by design), and the processor could be faster for use where power is more plentiful - i.e. the Eee PC is nearly ideal, except the screen seems cramped after using the OLPC. Also, the reflective mode for use in daylight is very nice.
Porting windows isn't the issue. The selling point of windows is the apps. You switch from x86 to ARM and suddenly linux now has a very distinct advantage.
I don't believe you.
...). Or maybe not _you_, but someone here ...
I am quite confident were the screen 1680x1050 you'd still find something to complain (no bluetooth, too pricy,
I use my EeePC mainly for NetBeans. It and Firefox for Java API documents. Firefox has "fuller screen" extension and NetBeans is run full screen - on a different work space. That makes a big difference (v.s. maximised).
Sure, 800x480 is a bit limiting but it does not stop from me from coding "on the run". I will not buy this new one as it is too expensive. Let's see 2010.
I see this era of ultra-mini-super-small-mini whatever laptops cultivating a market for which web apps - such as Microsoft Live or Google Docs and Adobe Photoshop Express - finally make sense. It's like they're finally finding their home.
What I mean is that it's obvious that a $300 laptop is going to cut corners. Since they will likely lose on the disk space front, having the ability to run a full blown office suite and image editing software without installing anything will be truly appealing - not to mention that you can store so much of your stuff online, making it easier to switch to your desktop when you get back to the office and finish your work.
Will this new market finally bring these services to the foreground?
Intel is limiting Atom (it's new 45 NM low power CPU) to motherboards with 1 DIMM at a 2GB limit. This is problematic because several vendors are loading Vista on these devices and they would be well served by 3GB or even 4GB of RAM. See http://backpackcomputing.com/ for a link to the full story.
The way to carry a full screen's content in pocket is via better DPI. Display resolution advancement has been stalled for years.
Wait for the new version of the EEE, imo. The 701 has a 3 hour-ish battery life, which is bareable, but the new 900 (8.9 inch) has just the same bits but with a bigger, more power-hungry screen.
These EEEs are just made of old bits that Asus got on the cheap - the 7" screens were from portable DVD players and the 900MHz Pentium M chips that they run on are an old stackful from 2005 which are no longer manufactured.
The new Intel Atom chips will have similar speed, but all the emphasis has been put on low power consumption, the EEE PC 2 should have a lot better battery life because of this.
Of course if you need one now, go ahead and buy it, no sense in always waiting!
Until these Sci-Fi input devices become mainstream, you could always count on foldable keyboard.
Even since my PalmIIIc period, I've been using foldable keyboard (by think outside and the like).
Note, I'm not speaking about the clamshell ones, nor the rollable ones.
I'm speaking about a box which has almost the same size as the Palm it self. It unfolds like an accordion in 4 parts. Once you've laid it flat, you slide the keys from the outer parts and you get a complete Desktop size ~90 keyboard (only lacks a keypad). This "sliding" locks the keyboard in open position, so you don't need a full flat place to used (compared to laser+infrared virtual keyboards) and you get actual tactile feed-back (not virtual keys. Real keys, which have the same size as those from your desktop).
Did all my note-taking at the university using such systems.
The best part is, now with the advent of common standard communication protocols like bluetooth, they produce one single model that fits for any bt-enabled PDA/smartphone/whatever (unlike back then, when they had to provide 1 model for every different proprietary connector that the market has come up with, and you had to rebuy a new one each time you changed your PDA).
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
They offered decent performance for the time they were introduced. It's just that what we call decent performance has grown by an order of magnitude.
This and that Windows CE has always sucked really bad.
And I have an IBM Z-50. I can tell you exactly how much Windows CE sucked.
http://www.dieblinkenlights.com
ARM took off in the thin and light space because of the watts. The thing is that ARM cannot compete with Atom in toolchain or processing power or available software or available hardware.
ARM can get better but there's a reason Intel sold it. It may live on in phones and devices like that.
For internet everywhere devices, no. Look at the available choices for browsers on ARM platforms. Blech. The Atom devices and their counterparts from via will run modern operating systems (but not vista) and familiar apps and interact with the usb devices and networking you already have. Add to this that Atom is "low power enough" and it's over.
The race may not go always to the swift or the battle to the strong, but that's where the smart money lays their bets.
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Ummm, ever used Windows Mobile?
It's a festering unstable piece of crap which is not compatible with any Windows desktop software.
Windows Mobile is a large part of the reason people are looking to replace PDAs with these mini laptops.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Nokia has been doing that for a while with the N770/800/810 machines.
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
Who is there first is interesting, but who is at least moderately successful first is what is important - and Palm was both that company, and the first company to be wildly successful in that space. Too bad about that whole lead-squandering thing.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Other journalism units:
Yeah - I do remember the Jornada and I bought one when it came out - and if I am not mistaken it was nearly GBP 700 back then (even if I remember wrong it was @#!$@#% expensive). And guess what - when the initial excitement wore off I didn't like it. Nor did I like many of the other gadget's I've bought in my life - organisers, smartphones, tablets. All of them have made me excited when I got them, and then after a few weeks, I've just stopped using them.
I bought an Eee PC a few month back and I absolutely love it. I am actually using it more and more and my trusty Thinkpad have turned into a Desktop PC at home - I just never bother to carry it around.
I have spend a lot of time thinking about what makes the Asus different. Honestly - the keyboard ain't fantastic, the display is annoyingly small, the battery life is way too small and I will never comprehend why Asus decided to save one or two bucks and not include bluetooth on a device that's supposed to be mobile. My personal conclusion is that the these two points make ALL the difference for me:
1. A USABLE Keyboard
OK - I will probably never get as fast on the Asus as I am on a normal laptop, but it is very very close. I really don't mind writing long emails or even documents on the Asus.
2. It's HACKABLE!
This one is probably the major one. While Windows CE (or whatever they call it these days) look pretty neat on a small display it is just so static. Yes I can install a few applications, but no - the Asus I can hack to pieces. I can tweak and twist it into running EXACTLY the way I want. Even the mind boggling lack of Bluetooth wasn't that much of a problem. A few hacks on the command line and a Bluetooth dongle was accepted, and a few hours with a soldering iron and a screw driver, and the dongle was no longer a dongle but a built-in device.
Really - your mileage might differ, but to me, those two point are the ones that make all the difference. The Jornada was cool looking and built like a tank (still got it - and it's still working) but the keyboard was just too small to use more than two fingers, and it was about the least hackable device I have ever seen.
I wouldn't call it off-topic in a thread where he posts with multiple accounts.
When I notice this behavior, I moderate the twitter account first, which is his lowest known uid. Otherwise, it goes to one of the accounts he's bothered to make members: Mactrope, gnutoo, inTheLoo, Erris.
So, consider it fair warning, twitter. When you answer yourself, you may lose more mod points than your puppets can restore. Otherwise, I'd have no problem with you having multiple accounts.
(Cue the AC claiming that nobody cares)
Not pretending to be DAldredge, MacThorpe or dedazo today?
"I've got more toys than Teruhisa Kitahara."
"Kinda makes me lose hope that Slashdot will ever be a place where intelligent and reasonable discussion will ever take place again."
Obligatory...
"You must be new here."
google "32 trillion offshore needs IRS attention"
In my experience WindowsCE 1 and 2 on a Handheld PC wasn't actually all that bad. It's when things went to the palm form-factor that stuff started getting real obtuse. The way I see it a very large portion of the problem is the user interface. A machine with a keyboard (and a window manager) is just that much better.
I've been using the built-in Xandros distro for the last couple of months. It's OK, but I really miss the upgradeability and conveniently huge software repositories of Debian and Ubuntu. However, it seem like if I switch to one of those then I'd have to give up all the special features, like Fn+F2 to toggle the WiFi or Fn+F7 to mute the speakers. Are there any nice, modern distros that suppport all the functionality of the hacked-up Xandros that ships with it?
BTW, I know I can Google this. I'd just rather discuss it here.
Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
As someone mentioned, costs to develop an OS are fixed, and the revenue MS makes on Windows is basically all profit past a certain number of units sold. The reason MS has been such a big business is because this fixed cost is much, much smaller than the revenue they take in.
Since Revenue = Number Units Sold * Price/Unit, and when you drop the price typically volume increases (i.e. Number units sold is a function of price). And it may turn out that at a lower price the volume more than makes up for the loss in profit/unit sold. (See Henry Ford and cars.) This works great until the market saturates. That market might take several years to saturate, especially if they draw out incremental improvements in processing power while fitting within the passively cooled/low power/silent/small constraint.
FWIW Even if one of those systems came with Windows I would still instantly reformat and run Linux/BSD. I don't know what it would be like if everyone ran some form of FOSS operating system. On one hand, compatibility issues would be nil, but I haven't had issues with them for a long time. Driver issues would be nil, now that would be a win. On the other hand, there might be all these social engineering attacks on the other side of the bell curve now running Linux, attendent viruses, botnets, etc. etc. That would be a loss.
If I have seen further it is by stealing the Intellectual Property of giants.
It makes you wonder if ARM will do something that lets you run x86 applications. Either a new instruction set like Jazelle or Thumb or a JIT compiler from x86 to ARM. Or some sort of hybrid solution that mixes the two, like their latest Java solutions.
Then again ARM implementations tend to be underpowered compared x86 since they aim at the embedded market not the desktop/server one. E.g. I wouldn't be surprised if ARM's fastest chip, the Cortex A9 will have significantly less MIPS than the Intel's slowest chip the Atom. Of course it is smaller and uses less power too.
echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
> which puts 47 million transistors on a chip about the size of a penny
Jesus! I am sick to death of processor size comparisons! Yes, they're small! We get the picture.
The difference is that this new generation use a proper OS, not a toy like Windows CE.
twitter
Oh, you were talking about economics.
Probably still twitter, then.
Which is annoying, because I use medical software on mine all the time, and the small size, simplicity, and instant-on of the Palm is essential. (Windows Mobile is horrible.) Their "best" model is the TX, for somewhat under $300 - but it's slower than the T5, has less memory, and is basically garbage. When mine died, I ended up buying a refurbished Tungsten C (thumb keyboard is much much better than Graffiti 2), which is faster and doesn't have the flash-based nonvolatile filesystem, which causes major headaches with many old apps.
It's definitely not comparable to the Eee, but no UMPC is capable of what I need it for...yet.
I vote for Totebooks.
Don't go to a brothel if you want to buy broth
it is an open and competitive market. We just haven't seen one of them for a while.
Psion were doing this decades ago... Psion Series 3, Psion Series 5, Netbook etc.
The OS they developed to do so was called Epoc. It is now installed on virtually all of the mobile phones being sold in Europe as Symbian OS... The philosophical successor to the Series 3 and Series 5 are the Nokia E90, Nokia E70 and older Nokia 9500, Nokia 9300 machines.
I have to be honest, the database, spreadsheet and word processing applications in the Psion machines were far better than the current bunch, but the machines are just as capable.
Deleted
Dell Vostro 1000, Starting Price, $399
From someone who uses it in this capacity:
How does the Eee perform as a platform for using skype with webcam?
My girlfriend and I currently live in different countries till early next year and we spend an inordinate amount of time together on skype, but I find having my massive Compaq laptop on my lap/desk/whatever to be a bit of a bother and a lighter, smaller unit would be preferable.
But I'm a bit hesitant to fork over the cash unless I know the Eee can deliver reasonable audio/video/webcam functionality with skype.
Any Eee users that care to comment?
Machine9dotNet
And I DO like the eee, but I'm still waiting for a cell phone that plugs into a USB docking station, and that station is connected to a monitor, speakers, keyboard, mouse, joystick, and I can do everything I can do on the eee. Plus I can unplug it and use it as a phone, ipod, camera, video camera, and GPS. When that starts to happen, all regular computers are going to be supplanted, and that is a good thing, if you ask me.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Computers are multipurpose devices and that's what people want them to be. Any device that is designed to be just for browsing the www or just for reading ebooks will either be hacked into usefulness or forgotten.
I'm surprised it's taken this long for people to catch on. I guess that the increasing level of eye candy in all desktop operating systems over the past decade has masked the fact that you don't actually need translucent windows, and if you drop back to a user interface with less overhead then you almost can't find a general purpose processor, no matter how cheap, that isn't more than powerful enough to do almost everything almost everyone actually wants from a computer.
Don't forget that the first popular computer with a GUI was running on hardware that made a Palm Pilot from 1998 look fast, and your typical "free" cellphone today has more horsepower than that.
I saw an add for one of these $299 'Laptops', an Asus eee. But it's not really a laptop, it's a thin client with a battery. If you throw another $60 at it you can increase the 2GB flash with a 4GB flash card giving you a total of 6GB for everything including whatever is used by the installed OS and all apps. Which is acceptable, but clearly this $360 laptop is meant to rely on something else for what we normally consider adequate storage. Say Google Drive or similar.
Ummm, I've been carrying an iPaq for 4 years. Wouldn't leave home without it. I have also done quite a bit of software development for Windows Mobile (see my other comment at http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=543674&cid=23306112). I still have the iPaq after 4 years because it just works ... syncs great with my desktop, I can carry Word docs and spreadsheets, it has a camera (stills and videos), I carry a boatload of mp3s (built-in SD slot) which I listen to with a 3rd party player because I dislike Media Player, it recognizes handwriting (printed or cursive), it has WiFi so I can web surf in a pinch, a built in instant messenger client, a bunch of games (including console emulators), and also serves as an eBook in a pinch. And it fits in my pocket ... no man-purse for me ;-)
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
Nope, most smartphones run Symbian (65% of those sold in Q4 2007, according to Wikipedia).
Anyway, Windows Mobile might keep Microsoft in the OS-on-ARM game, but it's Windows by name only. It's no more XP or Vista compatible than Linux on ARM.
Chernobyl 'not a wildlife haven' - BBC News
It's great to see these newer, low-power devices coming out. I've got an OLPC XO, but you know, it still isn't quite what I'm after. The basic concept is fine, but I doubt I'll purchase a nother similar product until it has :
1> Upgradable storage - the ability to pull, say, a CF device and boot a new (larger/efficient) drive.
2> 2-colour LCD screen - If there's one thing I've learned from the tiny OLPC, it's that I really don't want detailed pictures on such a small screen - it's a strain that is better left until I'm in front of a real monitor. The ability to convey textual information is the core duty of devices of this size, IMO. Display a full page of written text, render images only when specifically requested by the user.
3> Energy provided by commonly available, off-the-shelf batteries. A battery enclosure capable of holding either four D-cells, or four triplets of AAs, with the ability to recharge NiMH (or whatever the latest innovation is) industry standard shaped batteries.
For the HPCs with MIPS processor, there's the NetBSD HPCMIPS port.
I still miss my TRS-100. I so want something that light with a good keyboard. A bigger screen though. PLEASE.
> Who is there first is interesting, but who is at least moderately successful first is what is important - and Palm was both that company, and the first company to be wildly successful in that space.
i'd still say that psion were moderately successful. maybe not in the states but every where else they did ok.
http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/news/item/7100_Nokia_in_Quarter_1_2008.php
14.6 million smartphone sales in the first quarter of this year for symbian the successor to epoc isn't too shabby. its only the strange us phone market that seems immune to their charm.
> Too bad about that whole lead-squandering thing.
as a small british company they never had the pockets to fight microsoft who began targetting them around the time of the psion 5 by hiring key staff and buying out software they relied on. ultimately they created symbian to give their technology a push and since nokia took it over it has done quite well.
i like palm os. had a iiix, iiic, m125 and palm e. also had a visor neo which i thought was the best of them all. the treo is nice but is really showing it's age. i was one of the very few people i think who last year was looking forward to the foleo. if it had of been released i would have bought it over the eee pc. 10 hour battery life would have been the decider even if it were twice the price.
one thing the palm has and no other device has even been close to emulating is its syncing ability. the palm sync just worked. the nokia syncs fine with macos but is a bit of a resource hog on windows. the pocketpc platform is a disaster at syncing. every week at work i have to coax some device into talking with its desktop again.
i think one thing that is interesting is that both of these companies nokia (770 and 810) and palm (foleo was to run linux) are looking at linux for the future. just hope they keep the good parts of their current os/ui if/when they do make that move.
I was talking about Palm, a small silicon valley company. They originally did the software for the Tandy/Casio/GRiD Zoomer/Z-PDA-7000/GRiDPad 2390, which was based on PC-GEOS 2. This was also the original platform for 'graffiti'. Their main product was the pen recognition software and the pen applications, which stored their data in the form of memory snapshots. Horribly retarded, really.
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Like the command line?
Rethinking email
It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
...for me to dig out my Compaq Contura Aero. http://www.zenspider.com/~pwilk/aero_stuff.html
The T100 was an awesome machine. I still want one, although so far I have been able to keep myself form spending the money on a toy I will use once or twice. Which will then end up in the closet with all my other (Must have.) toys, collecting dust.
If I were God, wouldn't I protect my churches from acts of me?
The platform is still pretty useless to the application developer, the artist, the musician, the scientific researcher, etc..
Python runs on Win CE so it works for this developer.
Well, if you mean Windows compatible as in source code compatible, then you are mistaken. It is actually quite easy to develop an application that will compile and run on Windows desktops, Smartphones and PDAs. I know, I've done it. And it wasn't some lightweight application, it was multimedia, multithreaded, included network IO and a non-trivial GUI. I did 95% of my debugging on the desktop, then cross-compiled using the free Embedded Visual Studio and downloaded the ARM binaries to iPaq PDAs and Windows Smartphones.
The more you regulate a company, the worse its products become.
So, the question was "can you buy a Vista laptop for $300". The answer is "yes". End of discussion.
Web2.0: I love when people Flickr my cuil and digg my boingboing until my google is reddit and I start to yahoo
As long as the EeePC's terminal application supports the 6x13 font I'm happy. 1024x600 = 170x46 characters.
QUOTE: I'm waiting for the less than $200 pricepoint to open up. Moore's Law says it will get here soon enough. Even better is when somebody builds one based on an ARM all in one solution that won't be able to run Windows
http://www.openpandora.org/
your wish is my command
I can see why people will want to buy the XP version but they should really buy the linux version (which has a bigger HD in the new generation 9in ones) and then decide later if they want to pop XP on it.
Not interested. I don't want to fight with drivers or anything else. I want it to just work and I want applications to just work (which means Linux is right out).
I also don't have a spare XP license lying around.
(I love how my previous post got modded flamebait for calling twitter a sockpuppet.)
"You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
$100 today is not what its worth tomorrow. Meaning, with interest rates and inflation going up its going to be next to impossible to have a $100 laptop no matter how cheap they can be built. Just put computers in the classrooms! They can be protected and halt becoming broken by children whom don't even really need computers in the first place. These poor countries need food more then a laptop that they don't even know how to use and increase their electrical bill, if they even have electricity.
I love my Nokia N800. It is really cheap at about $200 now. It is very small and lightweight, but I can
browse the web (including Flash sites), read PDF files, check my mail, and it even has an X Terminal that I sometimes use for shell access to my desktop. I added a Bluetooth keyboard, so that I can
type long texts easily, and I can also listen to my music and make Skype calls. I take it with me
everywhere and never notice the weight. If I need more functionality, I would carry my big laptop. Not sure whether the middle point is so useful, as it would not fit in my pocket. The Nokia N800 does fit.
There is expert advice about how much weight you should be carrying in your shoulders (around 5% of your own weight if I remember correctly).
The lighter the laptop the better for you, irrespective of your subjective feeling about the matter.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.