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Microsoft Acknowledges NBC's Wish is Its Command

theodp writes "Responding to questions about why some users of Windows Vista Media Center were prevented from recording the NBC Universal TV shows 'American Gladiator' and 'Medium,' Microsoft has acknowledged that Windows Media Centers will block users from recording TV shows at the request of a broadcaster. 'Microsoft included technologies in Windows based on rules set forth by the (Federal Communications Commission),' wrote a Microsoft spokeswoman, apparently referring to an FCC proposal that the courts struck down in 2005. 'Microsoft has put the requirements of broadcasters above what consumers want,' said the EFF's Danny O'Brien. 'They've imposed restrictions way beyond what the law requires. Customers need to know who Microsoft is listening to and how that affects their equipment. Right now, the only way customers know what Microsoft has agreed to is when the technology they've bought suddenly stops working. Microsoft needs to come clean and tell its customers what deals it has made.'"

106 of 417 comments (clear)

  1. I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by bleh-of-the-huns · · Score: 5, Informative

    Last I checked... Tivo supports the broadcast flag as well, yet those of us (I have 2) with Tivo's had no issues... So I guess the question is, why is Tivo ignoring the broadcast flag (not that I am complaining mind you, I hate the broadcast flag), but I am curious..

    --
    I came, I conquered, I coredumped
    1. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by ArcherB · · Score: 3, Funny

      Last I checked... Tivo supports the broadcast flag as well, yet those of us (I have 2) with Tivo's had no issues... So I guess the question is, why is Tivo ignoring the broadcast flag (not that I am complaining mind you, I hate the broadcast flag), but I am curious.. I don't know if my Time-Warner provided box blocked it or not. Still, I'm surprised this got noticed at all; Does anyone watch these shows?
      --
      There is no "I disagree" mod for a reason. Flamebait, Troll, and Overrated are not substitutes.
    2. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Ice+Tiger · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They remembered who their customers were perhaps?

      --
      "Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
    3. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by rasper99 · · Score: 5, Informative

      From what I remember the way Tivo series 2 works with the broadcast flag is that it will record it but you can't use Tivo2go to transfer the recording to your computer.

      You can watch it on the Tivo all you want but that is all you can do with it. If you look at the information about a program recorded with the broadcast flag it should tell you that.

      I believe I recorded a show with a broadcast flag a long time ago and it said that. Guess I'll have to record one of these shows just to double check.

      Not sure what the Tivo series 3 and Tivo HD do with it. Should be the same.

    4. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      "They've imposed restrictions way beyond what the law requires." -- Wrong and ignorant.

      Microsoft has to program for more then one country you know. There is a wide range a laws and regulations that end up going into the media center programming - and yes, some of the programming will bleed over into the American version.

      In Canada we see shows being blocked from recording using that flag all the time. Yes, its ok for a broadcaster here to stop us from recording a program.

      I'm not saying i agree with it, but it's not as if Microsoft was screwing around with Americans just because they wanted to be a jerk.

      I would put more blame on the broadcaster for playing around with the flag when they shouldn't.

      In the meantime... Microsoft should release a patch that stops the DRM for those in America. It won't happen, but hey.

    5. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Most likely because no Tivo users in the affected broadcast area bothered to complain or have seen this often enough that they're busy pursuing the only effective resolution -- complaining to their cable company and/or local broadcaster.

      http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=390326&highlight=broadcast+flag/

      http://www.tivocommunity.com/tivo-vb/showthread.php?t=385828&highlight=broadcast+flag/

      There are too many steps along the broadcast path where a stupid user can accidentally reset the flag and they unfortunately do so far too often.

      None of the alarm-ringing "articles" on this have offered reason to believe that NBC-qua-NBC set this flag vs. it having been set by a local affiliate station or local cable provider.

      FURTHERMORE, the CNet reporters have failed to understand the distinction between the broadcast flag the FCC was not allowed to impose and the broadcast flag that CableLabs is allowed to impose on anybody making a system capable of using a CableCard (which both Tivo and MS do).

    6. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by schon · · Score: 4, Interesting

      "Microsoft has to program for more then one country you know."

      And it's *SO* difficult to write code to conditionalize behaviour based on locale, right? It's not like there's something in the OS that tells the computer which country it's in.

      "In Canada we see shows being blocked from recording using that flag all the time. Yes, its ok for a broadcaster here to stop us from recording a program."

      Reference please, or I'm gonna have to call bullshit.

      Google returns a ton of old references about Canada *thinking* about talking about it, but not a single instance that it's actually in use, but no reference to any law that was passed regarding it.

      Your MS apologism suggests that the US is on the lenient side of what's required, when in fact it's on the strict side.

    7. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Firehed · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Actually, that brings up an interesting point. TiVo, unlike Microsoft, is currently seeing subscription revenue for their services - they actually have something to lose if they start screwing with their customers. With MS-based media center machines, it's a one-off license deal as far as I'm aware - though I expect a company the size of Microsoft is forward-thinking enough to realize that pissing off people who paid once isn't a great way to get them to pay again, especially with what people are saying about Vista.

      It really makes you wonder what MS had to gain by doing this. Were they paid? Was it some sort of weird deal to get content providers annoyed at everyone BUT MS for not respecting the broadcast flag thus far? Why is a multi-billion dollar company bending over and taking it from tripe like American Gladiators?

      --
      How are sites slashdotted when nobody reads TFAs?
    8. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by AmaDaden · · Score: 5, Insightful

      It's not worth it for some. Keeping up on whats what in recording hardware and maintaining a MythTV box are less fun then working on some other geek hobby. Tivo is reasonably priced and works well. Also with Tivo you can get several, one for each member of the family, for less then additional MythTV boxes.

    9. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by schnell · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm a little bit surprised that slashdot has Tivo users.

      Fair supposition but I think the answer is the same reason many Slashdotters (myself included) have Macs - they have an intuitive UI and for the most part Just Work(TM). I have had a TiVo for six years now and have always found the ease of use in searching programs, setting up "Season Passes" and finding related programs to be better than any other DVR I have tried. My wife also finds it much more usable than the alternatives and we both a have a "if it isn't broke, don't fix it" attitude towards the setup.

      It doesn't mean I won't put together a MythTV box someday, but given how little of my time I think TV is worth (and my time is in shorter supply than my money), TiVo works pretty nicely for me. Your mileage, of course, may vary...

      --
      "95% of all Slashdot .sig quotes are incorrect or completely fabricated." -Benjamin Franklin
    10. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Yvan256 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I expect a company the size of Microsoft is forward-thinking enough to realize that pissing off people who paid once isn't a great way to get them to pay again
      You must be new here.
    11. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Duradin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually, it's rather obvious.

      That old computer is going to sound just peachy in your living room. Then there's the amount of space one takes up.

      MythTV stops being free when I have to buy a completely new rig to make it as compact and quiet as a tivo.

      It may be a 4 to 6 hour project, assuming everything works. Which isn't likely if you're making due with whatever is laying around.

      For a lot of people, there gets to be a point in their lives where their time is more valuable than money and they have the money to spare to spend on things that will save them time.

    12. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by gfxguy · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'd have marked you up if I had points.

      I'm definitely a nerd. With two kids. As an example of why I don't have an extra four or six hours to tinker, I spent last Saturday afternoon at a Pokemon tournament (can't stand Pokemon myself); in the morning I took one of them to his martial arts class. Sunday was food shopping and yard work. That's life as a dad, and I wouldn't have it any other way... but I don't have copious amounts of nerd time.

      So, in other words, while I love tinkering, sometimes I just need stuff that works out of the box.

      I get the same reaction from using Ubuntu instead of one of the other distributions, or switching to Windows for some applications... I'm sorry, I need stuff that works for me. That's all there is to it.

      But to go back on topic, if ever the Tivo stopped recording shows I liked, I'd take the time out to build a Myth box, no doubt. Face it, as I mentioned, I don't even get to watch much TV, so when I do it's a bit more important to me that I get what I want.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    13. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by gnick · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think using something like MythTv or Tivo is a massive waste of time because you still have to deal with the commercials. I use BeyondTV at home. The commercials are still recorded, but they're detected pretty robustly ~5-10 minutes after the program finishes recording. They show up in a different color in the progress bar when it's displayed and it's a single button press to skip each set.
      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    14. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by yuna49 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I've said this before here on Slashdot, but I think it's worth repeating.

      I, for one, don't think Microsoft implemented DRM controls in Vista because Hollywood threatened to attack Redmond with the entire array of Marvel superheroes. Microsoft is already quite well established in the content industry and, I expect, sees future opportunities there as well. I expect Microsoft will continue its ventures in the audiovisual industries, either by buying a studio outright, or entering into some type of joint venture like MSNBC. (Negotiating with Fox to assist in the purchase of Yahoo! might be a harbinger of things to come.)

      In the developed world the long-term outlook for profitable commodity software like an OS or office products is clearly on the decline. However the world-wide demand for mainstream audio and video content like the MPAA and RIAA members produce still seems pretty robust, and the profitability of these productions is well-known.

    15. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by pixelpusher220 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      yep, I got a C&D letter from my ISP for grabbing Stargate: Atlantis back when it first came out.

      They don't care whether it's movies or tv or music. it's money they seem to think they're losing so send in the lawyers!

      The funny thing is I *was* a huge SG1 fan, even had seasons 1-7 on DVD. I missed the first half of SG: Atlantis due to being without cable for a few months, so I just went online to catch up and figured I'd be 'nice' and do the same for other people in the same boat. I still have the downloaded episodes, and you know what? I've never watched them, nor have I watched SG1 since.

      Left a really bad taste in my mouth so I'm doing the best thing I can...NOT watching them anymore. Of course if I was more motivated I'd write them a letter but hey...haha

      --
      People in cars cause accidents....accidents in cars cause people :-D
    16. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by mkraft · · Score: 2, Informative

      TiVo doesn't support the OTA antenna broadcast flag. TiVo does support the DRM flags for cable, but that is required in order to become a cableCARD certified device. On a side note, it is also illegal for a cable company to set DRM for a rebroadcast OTA channel.

      As far as the TiVo is concerned though cable and OTA antenna are completely separate and have nothing to do with each other. OTA channels can always be recorded on a TiVo.

    17. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by mweather · · Score: 5, Funny

      If you're time is so valuable, why do you watch so much TV?

    18. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Locutus · · Score: 2, Informative

      They remembered who their customers were perhaps? Exactly and Microsoft's customers are content providers. It is often thought that PC purchasers are their customers but they are just the pawns since the mid 90s when Microsoft locked in the PC desktop OEMs to Windows. They only a couple of billion a year keeping that lockin and have for a few years now tried to use those pawns to extract revenue from advertisers who rely on content. Microsoft is not yet a content provider so they must satisfy they large content providers.

      Tivo still makes most of their money from subscriptions and does not have a monopoly position safety-net to rely on. Therefore, customers keep them in business and the customers are the users. Microsoft plays a different game.

      LoB
      --
      "Anyone who stands out in the middle of a road looks like roadkill to me." --Linus
    19. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's not worth it for some. Keeping up on whats what in recording hardware and maintaining a MythTV box are less fun then working on some other geek hobby. Tivo is reasonably priced and works well. Also with Tivo you can get several, one for each member of the family, for less then additional MythTV boxes. I have 6 boxes that run MythTV (1 backend and 4 frontends, as well as a carputer). Two of the frontends are XBoxes running Linux, I very much doubt you can find a TiVo for less than an XBox costs. Plus, you need to pay around $10 per month for every Tivo that you have, if you have several that quickly adds up. My frontend probably cost as much as an standard-def Tivo and does things that Tivo won't do for any price like automatic commercial skipping. Tivo also occasionally sends additional advertisements to your box and reserves some of your disk space for ads. I can also do number of other things that Tivo doesn't do, like play games, listen to music, view photos, check the weather, subscribe to RSS feeds, stream media over the internet, burn DVDs and a bunch of other things.

      Don't get me wrong, Tivo makes a very good product and I very much enjoyed using my Series 1 model, in fact I still use the Tivo peanut remote for my Myth box. The Series 1 was a highly hackable appliance and I was able to add many capabilities to it. Once Tivo started locking the boxes down I started looking for a PVR that would allow me the flexibility to do what I wanted with my media and I settled on MythTV. Tivo is great for the unwashed masses (way better than any of the cableco DVRs) but for someone with even a smattering of tech skills Myth is a superior product.
      --

      Enigma

    20. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by wc_paladin · · Score: 3, Informative

      I think using something like MythTv or Tivo is a massive waste of time because you still have to deal with the commercials. mythtv scans for commercials and automatically skips them. It's pretty accurate, only every once in a while do I see a commercial in a recording, and I never get false positives.
    21. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Machtyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      What's the idea where one written letter of complaint is worth so many people complaining that don't write?

    22. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by gfxguy · · Score: 2, Informative

      No, I'm still a nerd. My wife will attest to that. I still build and upgrade my own systems. Instead of trying to build a myth box, though, I wired my house (wireless wasn't cutting it for me). Each kids has their own computer built from old parts obtained as I upgraded my computer. So... it's not that I don't nerd out, but I gotta pick and choose.

      --
      Stupid sexy Flanders.
    23. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by 7Prime · · Score: 2, Funny

      Wait, one can be a car fanatic and still drive a 2003 Ford Focus, it's called BEING POOR. In his case, it's not money he lacks, but time. The interest is still there, the will to tinker is still there, but the time to actually do it is another thing.

      The only thing that makes me question whether he still qualifies as a nerd is the fact that he has a kid... which means that he has had sex...with a woman... which is the biggest red flag in my mind :P

      --
      Multiplayer Gaming (defined): Sitting around, discussing single-player games with my friends, at the bar.
    24. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by MyForest · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yep, being time-poor seems to be part of being a Dad. I've only got time to post this at 01:47 as I'm waiting for my 5-month old son to drift off back to sleep. I've been coming to the same conclusion about MythTV and have been waiting for the Playstation-based TV to appear in Europe. As for maintenance, my wife was at PC World on Sunday buying a new video card as the old one went flaky and she was on the phone to me whilst I was trying to stop the hot water flowing out the side of the house. I refer myself to previous comments I made to myself - "You have to lower your expectations when you have kids". Ahh, there we go, now I'm happy again.

    25. Re:I wonder why Tivo ignored the flag by Vaticus · · Score: 2, Informative

      I remember hearing something about one written complaint is worth or equates to twenty to thirty unhappy customers.

      --
      John 3:16. Know it.
      Drink Yourself Healthy: MonaVie
  2. I don't want a "TV experience" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful


    I just want it to work!

  3. defective by design... by advocate_one · · Score: 5, Insightful

    shows just who the real "customer" here is... not you... you are the product, delivered to the media conglomerates...

    --
    Donald 'Duck' Dunn: We had a band powerful enough to turn goat piss into gasoline.
    1. Re:defective by design... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Just another example of why they don't want public documentation of how their stuff works. The EU has been demanding only the protocols for years, maybe they should require more.

    2. Re:defective by design... by Sique · · Score: 5, Interesting

      That's old news.

      Douglas Adams is often quoted with something along this line:

      "Most TV stations are in the business to deliver customers to advertisers. The BBC is in the business to deliver TV programmes to people."

      --
      .sig: Sique *sigh*
    3. Re:defective by design... by kmac06 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The BBC isn't a business, so you can't really say it's in the business of anything.

    4. Re:defective by design... by nahdude812 · · Score: 4, Insightful
      I can't tell if you're being rhetorical or not.

      Yeah. It makes you wonder why they bother with delivering TV shows or the OSes.
      For the same reason manufacturing companies provide raw materials to their factories. These are the goods from which the final product (the money in your pocket) is produced.

      The interesting thing about manufacturing is that there are many companies whose product is another company's raw material.

      To media companies, your eyeballs are their product. They cultivate and fertilize it just like industrial farming. And just like industrial farming, they don't really care what's good for the product as long as it has sufficient yield.

      To advertisers, your eyeballs are the raw material which they cook and add some yeast to, then let you ferment for a while, and in the end they hopefully produce a rich full-bodied pocketbook.

      Don't mistake your place in the chain - if television was beer production, you'd be the malt or the hops growing in the field. Your only purpose is to be distilled and have all of your value drained away before being discarded as animal feed - after all, feces is an important fertilizer for growing malt and hops!
    5. Re:defective by design... by replicant108 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Commercial TV companies work for the people who pay their wages - the advertisers.

      The BBC also works for the people who their wages - the government.

      I know some people view the BBC as some kind of utopian ideal, but ultimately they are as compromised as any other form of corporate media.

      Don't mistake subtlety for neutrality.

  4. Damned either way by eggman9713 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If Microsoft doesn't disclose what is going on, customers will be angry that they can't do what they thought they paid to be able to do, and in the future, will not give them anymore money If they do disclose upfront, many customers will not give them money in the first place. Damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to our friend DRM.

    1. Re:Damned either way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      BS I call it. They've been doing it for YEARS and still customers go like sheep.

      You seriously underestimate powers of monopoly and lack of knowledge of substitutes.

      Sorry.

    2. Re:Damned either way by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 4, Insightful

      and in the future, will not give them anymore money Bullshit.

      The majority of the proles will bitch and complain, but they will still come home to Daddy - in this case, Microsoft - when it comes time to upgrade.

      The handful of people with enough brains to see this sort of shit coming aren't suffering.
      --
      "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
    3. Re:Damned either way by IBBoard · · Score: 2, Funny

      Damned if you do, damned if you don't when it comes to our friend DRM.

      Would that be Damned Restrictions Management?
    4. Re:Damned either way by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Some people are sheep. No way around it. But I'm not so sure it doesn't matter. People do change, and MS is getting hit, albeit slowly. Google has them even if they buy Yahoo. Linux continues to get better, although the arrogantness of certain distributions needs to back off. They no longer rule the browser to most. They don't have a good gaming platform. The list goes on--they're second in everything and bloated and eating themselves to stay alive.

      I was a Mac user. Who went to Win98 and XP. Who saw Vista and thought, screw that. Seems to me a lot of people don't like Vista either, far far more than they dislike XP. And you know what? Before I buy Vista, I'd go back to Apple. Most likely I'll go Ubuntu (although Ubuntu has gotten worse, imo, since 6.04; either that or their upgrade process blows chunks).

      I saw MS putting DRM in left and right in WMP. I started out not upgrading WMP. And now, I use VLC for most things.

      I now use Ubuntu on my 2nd main machine (XP still is on the first). When I get the time, the Win98 boxes (which are just used to surf) will got to Ubuntu. When XP loses support, I am probably keep some XP boxes around, but I may only buy 1 copy of Vista (if that), down from 3 of XP. For the last 5 years, MS hasn't received any money from me except for their mice and keyboards, and the only forseeable purchase I have with them is for their flight sim game software.

      I had been interested in XP Media Center for years. Never bought it. Why? As mentioned before, I watched MS add DRM into everything. Then I recently read MS's crap with dropping support on their DRM'd mp3s, and it is solidified that I'm not buying the Vista version. Now this going beyond the broadcast flag.

      Oh, and Xbox? I love the Mech franchise. Never bought another game since since MS bought (and then killed) that franchise. Will never bought either console. I instead own a Wii and a PS3.

      btw, people, stop watching NBC. That network sues companies for all sorts of crap, their parent company lays people off unnecessary to slim up margins, they have been hell when it comes to DRM, and now this. They've made themselves irrelevant with gameshows and abandoning viewers, so stop rewarding them at all. Hell, I feel bad watching SciFi, USA, or Bravo.

    5. Re:Damned either way by Wylfing · · Score: 5, Informative

      The American people in 1776 would have happily followed the English herders if it were not for a very few well financed and abled revolutionaries.

      I had to point out that this is incorrect, in both its substance and conclusion. The common chatter in pubs for nearly a decade leading up to 1776 was that the "sheep" (as you want to call them) -- i.e., the common people -- were ready to take up arms to expel the British presence in the colonies. This was in no small part due to the quartering of British troops in private American homes, and the attendant problems of having a large standing army permanently hanging out in American cities without an enemy to fight.

      The lesson here is not that people will do what they're told. Just the opposite. If you push enough people for a long enough time, you build an undercurrent of resentment that will eventually manifest in a dramatic way. Put another way, get off your goddamn elitist high horse about how the unwashed masses are idiotic sheep. People are not as dumb or as docile as you want to believe.

      --
      Our intelligent designer has never created an animal that we couldn't improve by strapping a bomb to it.
    6. Re:Damned either way by Mr.+Beatdown · · Score: 2, Informative

      Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.

      --Margaret Mead

      --
      My fellow Americans, let's restore the death penalty for child rapists. Let's do it . . . for the children.
  5. Great News! by jav1231 · · Score: 5, Insightful

    This is great news. Look, Microsoft has a vendor first / user second approach. The more stupid shit like this they do the more the users will catch on that they are simply taken for granted.

    1. Re:Great News! by bobetov · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Don't be an ass. The best outcome would be Microsoft taking great care of its customers, so that millions of people aren't hassled and inconvenienced.

      It's a pathetic second best to have lots of people getting shafted, just so a company can be "punished".

      The end goal is great technology and happy people. How we get there is much less important. Don't put politics before the people we're supposedly trying to help.

      --
      Looking for a Rails developer in Chapel Hill?
    2. Re:Great News! by rundgren · · Score: 5, Insightful

      This is great news. Look, Microsoft has a vendor first / user second approach. ..and so does every other company that uses DRM.
    3. Re:Great News! by somersault · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The end goal is great technology and happy people. How we get there is much less important. Don't put politics before the people we're supposedly trying to help. Microsoft have had pretty limited success in creating 'great technology' over the years. You can tell by looking at the alternatives that are out there, and the crappy products that they have produced when they try to get into new market segments - witness the RROD fiasco with the 360 (though people seem to be stupid enough to keep getting replacements or buying another one more for some reason..), and the pathetic sales of Zunes. Then there's the joke that Windows has become by being infused with plenty of DRM, just when things were starting to head in the right direction with 2000/XP and Windows Server, etc. Microsoft just try to get away with whatever they think the market will take up its ass. Some companies out there, believe it or not, try to benefit their customers - while still looking to make a profit of course. But when you put profits ahead of your customers, your profits are going to suffer in the long run anyway, aren't they? I don't think I'm too naieve in saying that.
      --
      which is totally what she said
  6. Power To the Corporates! by Oblong_Cheese · · Score: 2, Funny

    I'm all about multinational billion dollar corporates deciding for me about what I can and can't record legally. It's hell sweet! Before you know it, we'll have pay-per-view on every single broadcast!

    1. Re:Power To the Corporates! by cliffiecee · · Score: 4, Funny

      pay-per-view on every single broadcast

      I sure hope they leave the commercials in!

  7. Good by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I used to think MSNBC meant Must See NBC, as part of their "Must See" advertising. Thank you for unlocking this mysterious tie to Microsoft.

    I say let them drag each other into the ground. I can't recall the last time I watched any of the NBC networks. OK, I briefly watched some of the Olympics last time around, but that was about all. Even if there were anything decent to watch when I was away, I always have my VCR.

    As for Microsoft, they do make some darn good keyboards and mice.

  8. "Technologies" by ettlz · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Microsoft included technologies in Windows based on...

    What is it with Microsoft and the word "technologies"?

    Heeding a fucking bit is "technologies"?

    [Clicks fingers] Oh, sorry, that's marketdoublespeak to hide the fact that they're selling stuff that takes its orders from someone other than the customer who bought it.

  9. Re:Nothing to see here by that_itch_kid · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I don't think so. People are not so apathetic as you seem to think. They will take notice as soon as it impacts on their ability and their freedom to do things they have been able to do since they bought their first VCR recorder 25 years ago.

    Microsoft has been putting too much faith into its monopoly position. The more people this affects, the more people WILL move to alternative systems, and the more those alternative systems will improve.

    DRM will never survive.

  10. Microsoft has been screwing us over for years by Anita+Coney · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Microsoft has never been about the customer. Microsoft will gladly screw over their customers to get a few bucks or gain marketshare.

    Here's an old but great example. Back when Win95 was released you could not natively use long file names with 16-bit apps. However, there was a product called "Name-It!" which did allow that function. In other words it was possible and quite easy to enable the function, but Microsoft chose NOT to implement it. Why? Because long file names was a well liked feature among customers and denying it to customers would give incentive to upgrade to new 32-bit programs.

    Another great example is Messenger, the chat program not the service. Microsoft originally made it nearly impossible to get rid of. Even if you edited your sysoc.inf file and uninstalled Messenger, it'll suddenly come back. Even if you deleted the subfolder under Program Files, it would mysteriously come back. Obviously Microsoft considered its chat war against AOL more important than ease of use for its customers.

    And of course there's product activation. We were told it was to stop piracy, but that was bull-shit. You can easy obtain pirated copies of XP and Vista. Let's face it, if piracy has been decreased, then why is Vista Microsoft's most expensive OS? Why aren't they passing the savings back to us? Clearly product activation is not stopping piracy at all. Once again, the real purpose of product activation is to screw over the paying customer who wants to install the OS he paid for on both of his systems.

    And lets not forget how Microsoft's Office products are constantly screwing with file formats to make the later versions incompatible with earlier versions. Once again, this is NOT done to make it easier for paying customers. It's merely leverage to get those customer paying again and again.

    It'd be really hard to be passionate for Microsoft's products. It's hard to be passionate for anything that nickel and dimes you at every turn. That treats you like a criminal. And sees you merely as a cash cow to be milked at every chance.

    --
    If someone says he and his monkey have nothing to hide, they almost certainly do.
    1. Re:Microsoft has been screwing us over for years by JohnBailey · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree with all your points. So why do people resist when I give them Ubuntu and offer to install it for them? Even after using it, and finding that it does all they need, people flock back to pirated XP that they know contains malware right there on the install disc. Why? Because conformity is a very hard thing to overcome. Things like the broadcast flag and other DRM type shenanigans may give a few people an incentive to pause and look at what is going on, but alas.. not many. The WGA did it for me, and I am very happy with Linux. But the reality is that of all the people who use a digital recorder of one kind or another, most use Tivo and counterparts, the cable company's own box, or a DVD recorder. Only a tiny number use a PC based PVR even if it is the most flexible option. Although hopefully a few more HTPC web sites will bring this up when discussing software to use for the job.
      --
      It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.
    2. Re:Microsoft has been screwing us over for years by gsslay · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Back when Win95 was released you could not natively use long file names with 16-bit apps. However, there was a product called "Name-It!" which did allow that function. In other words it was possible and quite easy to enable the function, but Microsoft chose NOT to implement it. Why? Because long file names was a well liked feature among customers and denying it to customers would give incentive to upgrade to new 32-bit programs. Rubbish example and an even worse conclusion. The issue with long file names was related to old 3.x application that were developed prior to long names using the old 8.3 format. Unilaterally hooking into their file operation dialogs to update them to long file names could easily have unforeseen complications.

      The over-riding principle, and something that MS would always concentrate on (sometimes too much), would have been backwards compatibility. Users require it, but they do not want an upgrade of their operating system to start mucking around with their application's functionality. Backward compatibility does not include upgrading old apps to using new features they are not equipped to deal with. Anyone demanding a new version of an operating system also upgrades their third-party applications is insane.

      How "Name It!" worked exactly, I don't know. But I imagine that it didn't work with many apps and the user chose whether they wanted to use it or not.

      Another great example is Messenger, the chat program not the service. Microsoft originally made it nearly impossible to get rid of. Even if you edited your sysoc.inf file and uninstalled Messenger, it'll suddenly come back. Even if you deleted the subfolder under Program Files, it would mysteriously come back. Obviously Microsoft considered its chat war against AOL more important than ease of use for its customers. Sorry, but how does having Messenger installed affect the "ease of use for its customers"? Outlook Express has always done the same. It's annoying. But affecting ease of use???

      Once again, the real purpose of product activation is to screw over the paying customer who wants to install the OS he paid for on both of his systems. Isn't it always amusing the hear examples about people who believe that just because they've paid Microsoft once for one licence, that makes them a valued paying customer who shouldn't have to pay anything further. Valued paying customers are the ones who abide by the terms of the sale. Customers who take more than they paid for are more of a liability. I'm not saying that product activation isn't a PITA, but Microsoft is perfectly within its rights to hold customers to the terms the software was sold on. This is not "screwing over the paying customer". If you don't like the terms the software is sold on; there are alternatives.
  11. Remote controlled PR-disaster by YeeHaW_Jelte · · Score: 4, Informative

    Sooo, it seems Microsoft has set itself up for a PR disaster and given the remote control to any content-provider that knows how to use the broadcast flags.

    There is no better way to illustrate what restrictions DRM will have on the users day-to-day life, and Vista users will not like these demonstrations of Microsofts built-in Big Brother TM.

    --

    ---
    "The chances of a demonic possession spreading are remote -- relax."
  12. Basking in the love... by hyades1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Is this the place where those of us who loathe Vista as a bloated, DRM-ridden piece of crap that just can't wait to rat on its owners come for an apology from all those people who accused us of spreading FUD about it?

    Just wondering...

    --
    I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
  13. I wonder why... by Kamokazi · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...you tried to record American Gladiators.

    --
    As our way of thanking you for your positive contributions to Slashdot, you are eligible to disable Slashdot 2.0.
    1. Re:I wonder why... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Funny

      It wasn't for him.

      or alternatively:

      He's using advanced video editing techniques to create an "American Gladiators Gone Wild" video.

    2. Re:I wonder why... by nick_davison · · Score: 5, Funny

      Two /. news stories:

      Google helps the Indian government make a man eat from the same bowl he craps in.

      Microsoft saves users from recording American Gladiators.

      As part of their competition with Google strategy, I think Microsoft just stole the right to the "Do no evil" slogan.

    3. Re:I wonder why... by hairyfeet · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Why not try Mediaportal? It is free,open source and runs really nice on XP. I took an old SFF running XP Pro out of an office upgrade and put media portal on it for my sis. It really is simple and easy. But that is my 02c,YMMV. But I can say it really surprised me how well it worked with the el cheapo brooktree based card I picked up for it.

      --
      ACs don't waste your time replying, your posts are never seen by me.
  14. NBC should drop the broadcast flag....or perish by postbigbang · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Let's see, how many different competing sources of videos are there today? And NBC thinks it's got the best ones out there and wants to restrict their dissemination with the broadcast flag?

    I don't really care if Vista respects the flag or not. NBC, by putting it in the stream, thwarts its use, legitimate or not. In the YouTube/Tube world, they have *so* scratched themselves off the list.

    Let's see-- was that good for marketshare, branding, asset value, shareholder value, or compennsation? Hullo?

    --
    ---- Teach Peace. It's Cheaper Than War.
    1. Re:NBC should drop the broadcast flag....or perish by hansamurai · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Agreed, everyone here seems focused on Microsoft but they were only respecting some crazy law that seemed to be in existence at one small point of time, NBC were the ones that triggered the broadcast bit in the first place. It doesn't really matter if this was an experiment or an accident or even completely intended; they turned the bit on and this was the result. Hopefully they'll wake up and realize how pissed this makes their viewers, but maybe not.

  15. paradigm shift to the rescue by giorgist · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I am starting to think that the customer is about to decide.

    Why buy MS when you can get something that works. The reason MS is not working for the consumer is because it's not getting its money from the consumer.

    Computers are becoming a commodity. By the time, if not already, the next windows/office comes out computers will be so cheap there will be little room for MS. Solid state multi capable CPUs should dramatically drop the cost.

    I'd say paradigm shift to the rescue.

    G

  16. Re:Nothing to see here by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Nice one by MS, but this won't have much of an impact on Windows I think. What else are people going to use?

    Huh? That is the absolutely dumbest question I've heard all week (but it's Monday). There are a lot of flavors of Linux, there's Sun, there's Be, there's Apple. or did I misunderastand the question?

    Are you a Microsoft employee, did you get to slashdot by mistake somehow. or are you just trolling?

    -mcgrew

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  17. Re:Reminds me of ... by mvdwege · · Score: 5, Informative

    It would help the argument a lot if people would stop posting the link to Peter Gutman's first paper. He already has acknowledged that some facts were based on pre-release versions of Vista, and Microsoft trial-balloons.

    The newer slideshow addresses much the same issues, without the minor holes the MS astroturfers can use to misdirect attention away from the main points.

    Mart
    --
    "I know I will be modded down for this": where's the option '-1, Asking for it'?
  18. Re:Nothing to see here by Cryophallion · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Actually, Mythtv is pretty easy to set up now, if you use one of the distro versions (knoppmyth, mythdora or mythbuntu).
    I add a nice pchdtv video card, which does not detect the broadcast flag, and I have nothing to worry about. Plus, I can burn dvd's of my recordings, and many other things.

    Windows media center has a number of problems, and crashes too. However, because it is windows, people ignore it. Myth is just as stable. And can be tested before buying (since mythbuntu at least has a livecd)

  19. NBC programming blocked = net win for the consumer by Sun.Jedi · · Score: 2, Funny

    I just glanced over the channel lineup for my area (I honestly didn't know what NBC was offering), and I'm in favor crappy TV networks self regulating themselves further out of my view.

    It isn't much a surprise, given the lack of NBC on the chart.
    /half-joking, half-not

  20. With Tivo TV is no longer real-time. by v(*_*)vvvv · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Has anyone using Tivo ever been able to go back to regular TV? If they took a look at the viewing habits of Tivo-ed users, they would be forced to remove the flag if Tivo had enforced it.

    Ever since I got Tivo, I *never* watch programs in real-time. If I can't record it, I am not watching it.

    1. Re:With Tivo TV is no longer real-time. by somersault · · Score: 5, Funny

      If I can't record it, I am not watching it. I tried using that argument at the cinema, but they threw me out :(
      --
      which is totally what she said
  21. Re:How fast will a hack appear for this ? by sm62704 · · Score: 4, Informative

    In fact I would be surprised that the hack is already out there

    It is, the fix is here.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  22. Re:Nothing to see here by larry+bagina · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Be? Is this a copy-pasta response from 5 years ago? If someone needs to record American Gladiator, they'll find something else to record it with (or watch it on hulu or nbc.com), not switch to linux.

    --
    Do you even lift?

    These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.

  23. Perhaps we should thank Microsoft by J_DarkElf · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I think we should be grateful to Microsoft in a way. By fully exposing people to the whim of the content mafiaa (in this case NBC) it will finally become clear to a large enough crowd that DRM and like measures, like this 'broadcast flag', are taking away rights we took for granted.

    Hopefully with awareness finally spreading beyond the minority of hobbyists, enough of a voice can be made to stop the big companies before it is too late.

  24. My VCR Still Works by HangingChad · · Score: 4, Insightful

    As long as there is analog out, I'll be able to record my favorite shows. Just retarded you have to go through all that.

    Is it really any surprise MSFT puts business interests ahead of user interests? It's been that way a long time.

    --
    That's our life, the big wheel of shit. - The Fat Man, Blue Tango Salvage
  25. NBC and Microsoft pattern by theurge14 · · Score: 3, Informative

    15 July 1996: Microsoft and NBC form MSNBC.
    31 Aug 2007: NBC pulls all content from iTunes Store.
    6 May 2008: NBC puts content on Zune Store.
    Now: NBC has Microsoft block Windows Media Center from recording certain shows.

    What other wonderful developments can we expect?

    1. Re:NBC and Microsoft pattern by initialE · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There's a problem with your time scale there, buddy. You're trying to piece together events that happened across over 10 years as a natural consequence of a single management goal, when it is obvious that it really isn't. NBC puts content on iTunes, as it was at the time the only store around. Why would they wait a whole 9 months to transit from iTunes to the Zune store? how about the sales lost during that period of time?

      --
      Starbucks, Harbuckle of Breath.
  26. Indeed... by interactive_civilian · · Score: 5, Funny

    VCR recorder, is that like an ATM machine? ;) Indeed, it is. However, unlike an ATM machine, you don't need a PIN number for a VCR recorder.
    --
    "Empathise with stupidity, and you're halfway to thinking like an idiot." - Iain M. Banks
  27. Vista looking more attractive every day by elrous0 · · Score: 2, Funny

    Wow, I really wanted to buy Vista before, what with all the glitches and problems. Now I REALLY want it.

    --
    SJW: Someone who has run out of real oppression, and has to fake it.
  28. Re:Nothing to see here by Animaether · · Score: 4, Interesting

    "things they have been able to do since they bought their first VCR recorder 25 years ago."

    MacroVision ACP, anyone?
    Yes, you can easily filter that out with a little box you buy for a couple of bucks if you're affected by it, but you're definitely viewing things a bit too rose-colored on the whole copy-protection front if you think that this sort of thing is new.

  29. The Last Straw. by kiwioddBall · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've been a pretty loyal Microsoft user since Win3.1, and I'm a senior I.T. professional. I'm not particularly radical, I use Vista, and its OK.

    However, Microsofts recent performance has been pretty disgraceful, enough to force change for me. I point to three incidents - This one with the broadcast flag, the recent shutdown of the Microsoft Music Validation servers, and the release of the emails where it showed that senior management had no idea how to treat customers or partners during the months leading up to the release of Vista.

    How hard is it for Microsoft to treat their customers OK? I mean, the broadcast flag incident shows they bend over for the broadcast networks, even though the networks business model doesn't even require this. Why do they do this to their customers? Obviously, the networks are paying Microsoft, but surely they can't be paying as much as customers pay for licenses to use Vista/XP. Why treat your greatest revenue stream like a POS - like they're stupid?

    With regard to the Music Server incident, a number of customers have paid for music, these are valuable customers again, and they are having their servers shut down so they can't play their music beyond their next upgrade/reinstall. How low is that. I mean, how much more poorly can you treat your customers. How hard is it for Microsoft to keep a few servers running to validate that music, to say to the customers, look, we'll keep this going as a sign that we give a .... - you're our customers after all. Being an IT professional, I can see perhaps there might be an issue keeping it going through system upgrades, or server upgrades? Well, how hard would it be supply music on the current store? Or perhaps there aren't enough customers to make this cost effective? I don't know, then you don't have to keep many DRM servers running to keep them happy.

    As for the emails, I don't know where to begin. They treated HP like .... after they made them bend over to develop new hardware for the Vista Capable logo, and then redefined the conditions so HP wasted their time and money. And then they were surprised when Vendors weren't developing drivers for Vista. To quote the MS executives, the hardware vendors 'didn't trust us'.

    It really pains me to use Vista after reading this stuff. This isn't a complaint about Vista or whatever, its an OK operating system, its a lot easier to use than any Linux variant, and I find it stable now. But I can't keep using it beyond my current hardware iteration. I'll keep using it at work, but from a moral point of view, I just can't keep using it personally. You just can't keep treating people like that, and I feel like a gullible fool giving Microsoft more money. I am pleased that there are alternatives at last, be it Apple or a future Linux that will be more innovative and user friendly by the time my current hardware dies.

  30. I pay for advertisement by erroneus · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Long ago when cable TV was new, part of the draw of cable TV was "commercial free!" and signal clarity. Well, there was nothing wrong with the signals we got over the air until cable lobbied to have the RF power of TV stations lowered and the commercial-free thing didn't last long either.

    Of course, the internet was not created to be yet another form of advertising media, but that is what it has become and somehow people actually believe that is what it's there for -- they don't see it as a corruption of its original intent.

    I bought some DVDs over the weekend only to find that the first 5, unskippable, minutes were advertisements for other things.

    Why should I have to pay for advertisements being shoved in my face?

    I once worked for a weekly news rag and we fought spam hard. Meanwhile, our own sales people were constantly pushing and stepping over the line when it came to their own email behaviors. As a company that is all about advertisement, you'd think they'd be more sympathetic to the "needs of the other marketers" out there. But in their defense, I suppose, they published a paper and didn't shove it down anyone's throat... and it was a free paper too, so no one actually paid to see these ads. (This is about as legitimate as it can get) Eve so, I couldn't stand working there any longer so I don't. I hate marketing. It simply corrupts everything it touches.

  31. Re:Nothing to see here by sm62704 · · Score: 3, Interesting

    ...they'll find something else to record it with

    You spend over a hundred dollars to upgrade a product, it won't work as advertised, and than just just say "oh well I'll download it?" That's not how I would react.

    No, if you bought Vista because of the commercials that tell you how it's a "mddia center" and you find out that your "media center" won't work, you're going to be pissed.

    And "something else to record it with" includes Linux (or other UNIX clone like Apple or Be) and MythTV.

    --
    mcgrew's razor: Never attribute to stupidity that which can be explained by greedy self-interest
  32. Do they? by Junta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I could see Tivo in the past implementing it as they thought it was inevitable, but probably once it was determined as not inevitable, a company in a competitive marketplace can't afford to screw their customers. The networks probably offered Tivo some money to honor the flag and Tivo may have decided the better business move would be that the money wouldn't be worth the lost sales.

    Meanwhile MS is not accustomed to such a situation. To them, the end-users have been a foregone conclusion, MS expects to get that money no matter how crappy they treat those users. So when the networks come to them with an offer, it's a no-brainer. This is what a monopolistic viewpoint does. In the DVR space, you would think they would realize they are not a monopoly and not act this way, but until this incident, they hadn't had their situation tested.

    It's an interesting thing showing users the reality of where they stand. They are not customers to NBC, they are a necessary evil for NBC to deal with indirectly to please their customers, advertisers. Advertisers desires trump viewer desires. To MS, the end-users are to an extent customers, but again they are assumed to be guaranteed customers. MS has to pander a bit more to OEMs, but not much. MS therefore views deals with other entities (like studios) for abusing their users as the place where they can grow.

    I will say I like how this has played out in general compared to the alternative. The networks tried to get the FCC to enforce it on their behalf and failed. Now, they must pay every DVR vendor and every DVR vendor gets to choose whether or not the lost sales are worth it. Allow the broadcast flag, and specify a standard path for it, but don't mandate enforcement and let capitalism work it out. Of course, I know which way this would go, obeying the broadcast flag is dvr market suicide.

    --
    XML is like violence. If it doesn't solve the problem, use more.
  33. As for #1 by theurge14 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Here is a good place to start.

  34. Mister Rogers already settled this issue by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    This issue has already been settled in SONY CORP. OF AMER. v. UNIVERSAL CITY STUDIOS, INC., 464 U.S. 417 (1984) (http://www.law.cornell.edu/copyright/cases/464_US_417.htm). Fred Rogers made a profound and compelling argument for the personal recording of television programs:

    "Some public stations, as well as commercial stations, program the 'Neighborhood' at hours when some children cannot use it. I think that it's a real service to families to be able to record such programs and show them at appropriate times. I have always felt that with the advent of all of this new technology that allows people to tape the 'Neighborhood' off-the-air, and I'm speaking for the 'Neighborhood' because that's what I produce, that they then become much more active in the programming of their family's television life. Very frankly, I am opposed to people being programmed by others. My whole approach in broadcasting has always been 'You are an important person just the way you are. You can make healthy decisions.' Maybe I'm going on too long, but I just feel that anything that allows a person to be more active in the control of his or her life, in a healthy way, is important."

  35. Re:Nothing to see here by Ihmhi · · Score: 3, Insightful

    The problem with stuff like MythTV is that it does not appeal to the average DVR user. Most people who use a Media Center PC and can set it up probably have no idea what a SVN is or how to operate something like MythTV.

    This is not newbie friendly. It's easy to say "MythTV, MythTV" and espouse the benefits of it, but you're not going to get people to use it if it is not easy to set up.

    When you have an installer that you can click on and get the program working without having to mess with Linux and command lines (like WinMyth), THEN it will have a chance in the consumer market. Until then, the average user will put up with it or just hook up the ol' VCR.

  36. Re:Nothing to see here by sorak · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Actually, Mythtv is pretty easy to set up now, if you use one of the distro versions (knoppmyth, mythdora or mythbuntu).
    I add a nice pchdtv video card, which does not detect the broadcast flag, and I have nothing to worry about. Plus, I can burn dvd's of my recordings, and many other things. I wanted to give mythTV a try on my media center pc, but had a time trying to get an EPG to work with American networks, such as comedy central (I think the guide that came with myth-TV pretty much said, "find a web page and write your own html to XML converter"). Is there anything really convenient for newbies/casual users in the guide listing area?
  37. Re:Nothing to see here by Svartalf · · Score: 2, Informative

    That's not analogous. This was there to preclude copying content provided by the cartels via video tape. There's no MacroVision over the air waves (until now, that is...) and hasn't been for years. The GP poster wasn't stating that DRM hasn't been around or that an otherwise completely legit tool for cleaning up the video on dodgy VHS-C and Beta camcorder tapes would strip out the MacroVision crap. What he was referring to was the DRM that just got applied that precludes even RECORDING OTA television that just got inflicted on MS customers- something they've been able to do since the first consumer VCRs came out.

    --
    I am not merely a "consumer" or a "taxpayer". I am a Citizen of the State of Texas
  38. You misunderstood the question by hassanchop · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Huh? That is the absolutely dumbest question I've heard all week (but it's Monday). There are a lot of flavors of Linux, there's Sun, there's Be, there's Apple. or did I misunderastand the question?


    I think you misunderstood the question, he meant, "what will they replace it with that is an actual possibility for adoption".

    Pretending is fun, but there's only one answer in your list that currently fits that bill.
  39. Malice vs Incompetence by FurtiveGlancer · · Score: 2, Informative

    Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by incompetence. Apologies to Nick Diamos. So the proposed FCC rule was not enacted. At least M$ was leaning forward on something.

    --
    Invenio via vel creo
  40. Re:Blaming Microsoft? by Tim+C · · Score: 3, Insightful

    What do you want? To just not watch blu-ray movies?

    No, I think most people here want(ed) MS to fight their battle for them, and got pissed when they didn't. Oddly enough MS weighed up a fight they couldn't have won (there's no way the media industry would have let them off with not implementing copy prevention measures and still enable Windows to play HD content) versus their customer's likely desire to play HD stuff on their PCs, and decided the only way they could have.

  41. Re:Nothing to see here by digitalaudiorock · · Score: 3, Informative

    Actually, Mythtv is pretty easy to set up now Especially for those in the U.S. who are only using an antenna and target their system for digital only as I did (which of course is all there will be after 2/2009). An all digital mythtv system for OTA is really slick and straight forward. The backend process just writes the mpeg ts directly to disk with no encoding and virtually no CPU (unless you auto-flag commercials...which is soooo cool by the way). I have three pcHDTV tuners in a Dell 4600 for my backend machine and it records three HD shows at once (even while watching a fouth previously recorded show from the frontend) without a hitch. The $20/year for schedulesdirect.org listings will be the best $20 you've ever spent...those folks did an awesome job.

    Just bear in mind that the CPU requirements for playing HD on the frontend are pretty high....2.8 or 3 Ghz at least. You also need a lot of disk for the 6+ GB/hour of HD mpeg.

    For anyone with a decent amount of linux experience it's not difficult on any decent distro. My frontend and backend are both Gentoo, and frankly I think it's ideal, as it's easy to build a system with only what's needed for myth and nothing more.

    Oh yea...and this whole thing with M$ and the broadcast flag...I can't believe they're enforcing a rule that was struck down my the courts at the expense of their customers...that's pretty amazing even for them.
  42. try reading documents instead of burning them by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Informative

    (apologies for the bad Indy joke)

    I don't know how your post got modded to "5, Insightful" when it should have been "0, Flamebait".

    Read a little and learn something Informative, junior:

    The terms http://www.cablelabs.com/udcp/downloads/DFAST_Tech_License.pdf/ of just one of the licenses necessary for selling a Uni-Directional Cable Product (better known to you as "CableCard support") requires the vendors to obey these copy-control flags (including the flag that says not to make even an initial recording). TivoHD and Tivo Series 3 recorders as well as newer versions of Windows Media Center support CableCards and thus are contractually obligated to obey this flag even when the station or cable company screwed up and mis-set it; MythTV does not support CableCards and that is why it ignores the flags. Tivo Series 2 recorders do not support CableCards and, accordingly, continue pay no attention to the flags because there is no contractual obligation for them to do so.

    This was not a result of MS stepping on end-users or Tivo having been paid off by broadcasters. This is a result of the FCC giving a broadcast-industry group final authority over the licenses a DVR needs to support digital-cable.

  43. More proof of the Microsoft Monopoly by mlwmohawk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The fact that Microsoft will do this "to" its customers is proof that there is practically no competition in the market place.

    If there were competition, a vendor would be terrified if their product did do what it was supposed to and would not side AGAINST the wishes of their paying customers. If there were laws that limited what their products would do, they would fight those laws to improve their products.

    No, Microsoft has illegally protected its monopoly for too long. Almost all these abusive problems we see are a direct result of it. If there were real and thriving competition, none of this could happen because it would be the death of a vendor.

  44. Re:Then Douglas Adams was talking crap by bri2000 · · Score: 2, Informative
    Come off it, every channel "advertises" what programmes are coming up next/soon. The real difference with the BBC is that there are far fewer ads - e.g. absolutely none in the middle of programmes.

    1. They don't need ads between the programmes. There are now BBC programmes which are basically nothing more than adverts (e.g. the Saturday evening reality shows which are nothing more than promotion for Andrew Lloyd-Webber's latest musical abomination).

    2. BBC radio has adopted the format of 45-60 seconds of ads every two records. These are actually even more irritating than the ads on commercial radio as they repeat the same ones endlessly - which, if you're off work and have the radio on all day, slowly drives you insane (and these include ads for other BBC channels, not just the particular radio station). I understand that this has been done to make it easier for paid adverts to be dropped in for people listening on-line outside the UK, which is the eventual goal.

  45. Re:Blaming Microsoft? by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Informative

    While the broadcast flag is certainly not a required thing to honor, it is something the content providers wanted and something that doesn't really negatively affect consumers unless the content provider wishes so.

    I guess you didn't RTFA or at least the summary. Consumers are already negatively affected when they are blocked from recording their shows from NBC. For some TV programs, there may be re-runs. For live TV shows, there may be no way to record them again.

    The fact of the matter is: It's not up to Microsoft to decide for you NOR the content provider. Microsoft can't tell the content provider "screw you" because you want to skip by some commercials on TV.

    It is up to MS whether or not to honor the broadcast flag. They have chosen to do so while Tivo does not. MythTV does not. The United States Court of Appeals for the D.C. Circuit has already ruled that the FCC could not force manufacturers to adhere to it.

    Without support for DRM in Windows, we wouldn't have the ability to watch things such as blu-ray. This will become more important as the drives become cheaper and people start loading them up in their HTPC setups.

    Huh? Blu-ray has nothing to do with Windows. In fact, MS went against Blu-ray for HD-DVD. However, the point of the article is that MS is taking away the rights of consumer to record broadcast programs and play them back.

    That said, let's look at the law here. You have no "constitutional" rights in the US to do whatever you want with whatever you want. You have no "rights" to download, store, digitally alter media produced by someone else if they don't want you to.

    Again, this article is about people not being able to record their favorite programs on their Media Center. This is not about file sharing. You do not have rights to alter the media, however, you do have a right to record and store it. In Sony v. Universal, the Supreme Court ruled that consumers can record whole programs and watch them later (called time-shifting).

    --
    Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
  46. Being a Grammar Nazi today, I guess by TechForensics · · Score: 2, Informative

    You mean TOE the line, not TOW the line-- as in keep your toes on the line, not as in be sure you tow it from place to place.

    Sorry but I love English and it bugs me to see it mangled.

    --
    Those are my principles, and if you don't like them... well, I have others.
    1. Re:Being a Grammar Nazi today, I guess by quonsar · · Score: 3, Funny

      Careful, you may damage his self of steam.

  47. Re:Blaming Microsoft? by magamiako1 · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sony Corp. of America v. Universal City Studios, Inc., 464 U.S. 417 (1984)[1], also known as the "Betamax case", was a decision by the Supreme Court of the United States which ruled that the making of individual copies of complete television shows for purposes of time-shifting does not constitute copyright infringement, but is fair use.

    Doesn't mean they have to allow you to do it, it just means that they can't use the courts to prevent you from doing so. This case also protects device manufacturers.

    Again, it doesn't mean that the content producers and device manufacturers can't work together to come up with something if they choose. This is clearly what Microsoft has done.

    So if you don't like it, use a Tivo and that's that. I don't see what the whining is for.

  48. The technology is not ALL bad... by hyperz69 · · Score: 2, Funny

    It does prevent people from watching American Gladiators ;P

  49. End users are not MS's Customers. by random+coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Microsoft has come clean with its customers. Its customers are, of course, Dell, HP, NBC, and other computer and entertainment business plus the rest of the Fortune 500. Any home user is NOT a customer of Microsoft, or at least not one Microsoft wishes to have as a customer. Assuming the end user is Microsoft's customer leads to all kinds of logical dilemas. When you realize they are not then Microsoft's actions appear much more logical and customer focused and supporting.

  50. Don't fool youreself by Bullfish · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yes, MS says they will use the broadcast flag if asked, and as others pointed out, Tivo etc hasn't. It's probably because they haven't been asked. MythTv doesn't, but it is an open source project with no one commercial owner. If it was made by a company that made a distro and they were asked... they probably would. No one, not Jobs, not Gates and not Shuttleworth is going to do a perp walk so you can record shows. That's really between you and your government and the entertainment industry. I have media centre as part of my OS, but I use BeyondTV... They too would recognize the flag if they were told to, and an update would ensure it (I avoid a lot of updates after reading their notes). Maybe in some eyes, MS is the devil here, but I doubt you will ind many CEOs making a stand for you in such an instance.

    1. Re:Don't fool youreself by Enigma2175 · · Score: 2, Informative

      No one, not Jobs, not Gates and not Shuttleworth is going to do a perp walk so you can record shows. That's the crux of the issue. The broadcast flag IS NOT THE LAW. The FCC did make a rule requiring it but the US Court of Appeals ruled that the FCC did not have the authority to make such a rule and struck it down. Nobody is going to have to do a perp walk for not implementing the flag even if they are asked. Most likely what happened is that MS made a deal with the networks to recognize the flag. They don't have to, but they WANT to.
      --

      Enigma

  51. I would add by Brain-Fu · · Score: 2, Informative

    Microsoft's products are primarily information products. Windows, Office, etc. Microsoft, therefore, benefits from the institution of information control, including well-enforced Intellectual Property laws and business practices.

    So, Microsoft indirectly benefits from "playing ball," even if the information product in question isn't one of their own.

  52. BBC pretend adverts .. by rs232 · · Score: 2, Informative

    "The BBC is in the business to deliver TV programmes to people"

    May true once, but lately it's been in the habit of regularly interrupting programs with pretend adverts for programs on its other channels. It's news has also gone the way of Faux News especially since X/XX. No attempt at analysis just various supposedly independent commentators regurgitating the official line.

    "International police agency Interpol says Colombian officials did not tamper with computers which they claim provide proof Venezuela financed Farc rebels"

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  53. It's a MEDIAOPOLY! by Bushido+Hacks · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Because the FCC can't get in the way of the Internet, Media corporations can control what we can find on big name websites. NBC controlled by NBCUniversal and General Electric, now has Microsoft on their side. Why else would Yahoo! be next on the Microsoft To-Do list? News Corporation, owners of Fox, MySpace, and the Wall Stree Journal, was also vying for Yahoo! TimeWarner, owners of CNN, HBO, Warner Brothers, and Time magazine, own AOL. Disney owns ABC as well as the GO.com website. (Who uses GO.com anyway?) And of course last weeks merger with CNet and CBS.

    Robert Smigel was right.

    Now the mainstream media (MSM) is looking to control a large portion of Internet. If the MSM does not allow us to decide what we want, why should we give them what they want? Why does that last statement sound so familiar?

    --
    The Rapture is NOT an exit strategy.
  54. Would VLC work? by HycoWhit · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've avoided Vista like the plague. However with XP, I stopped using Windows Media Player long ago for the much more powerful VLC. Would VLC work as a replacement for Media Center on Vista?

  55. Re:My experience with Muthbuntu by Machtyn · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Very interesting response. Certainly, I prefer things to "just work", but for stuff to "just work" it takes a lot of development. Where to place the blame when it doesn't "just work" is probably where you and I differ on our views of Linux as an OS platform.

    I, for one, see the inability of a manufacturer to present drivers for a segment of the market as a failure on the manufacturer/developer. I don't care whether it is open or closed source, as long as it works well. If it is open source, all the better - more eyes to review and improve.

    As you see it (they way I understand you), you think that Linux is only supposed to be for open source software and not closed source. Certainly the hairy-faced Linux evangelists will not want any closed source software, but they will prepare their environment for that purpose, it also limits their ability to do some stuff (such as load ATI drivers.)

    It seems you would blame the Linux people for not developing drivers for a closed product. They could certainly try, but now there are laws in place that criminalize these activities. I don't understand why ATI would have such crappy Linux drivers. Perhaps that's why they had to be bought out by AMD. Perhaps this realization is driving AMD to release sources for their products.

    I also purchased an ATI AIW. Nice card, except it limited me. I sold it to my brother-in-law who cares to only be in a Windows world and I picked up an Happauge. I prepared my environment for a linux system. Had I kept my ATI AIW, I would have stayed in the MS Windows system.

    I believe we both agree on the end goal: a system that allows us to record TV shows to a PC for either later viewing, commercial-free tv, or live-rewind viewing. We want our system to be easy to setup and use. We want to use the hardware we have laying around to achieve our goal (a promise made by many in the Linux community that doesn't always work out because of closed source hardware vendors.) Just try to remember, a closed device does not mean an open driver can be created for it, even if it is 5 or 15 years later.

  56. Re:My experience with Muthbuntu by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Step 3: Try to figure out why the fuck Linux keeps deciding randomly (on reboot) that /dev/sda1, /sdb1, /sdc1 are different fucking drives. I'd set my data drives the way I wanted them thanks, I don't need Linux deciding that for some reason /media/Video1 should now map to THE FUCKING WINDOWS PARTITION. After two hours of hunting, I find the barely-documented "UUID" setup ... why the fuck does Linux not use that by default?

    Welcome to "hotplug" (plus udev etc). Thanks to endless whining from users about "auto-detecting" stuff ("Look Windows does it!") we now too have the Plug-and-Pray subsystem, behaving pretty much like its Windows counterpart, i.e. randomly.

    Why, you ask? Simple: various pieces of hardware have (for all practical purposes - randomly) changing times required for them to initialize. Which changes the order of detection depending on if you are warm booting, cold booting, if you turned some unrelated piece of hardware off, etc and so on, which combined with "dynamic" /dev subsystems cause the effects you described.

    The UUID hack is an attempt to bring some sanity back into the Plug-and-Pray process, but it is just that, an after-thought hack. Desperate measures really.