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Windows 7 Multitouch Demonstration
Starturtle writes "Bill Gates and Steve Ballmer have shown a small snippet of the upcoming Windows 7 at Walt Mossberg's D: All Things Digital conference. It seems like the Windows team have switched their focus for inspiration from Mac OS X to the iPhone OS. Multitouch is the biggest addition, and will appear system-wide, usable anywhere. The most interesting part of the touch UI is not the eye candy, it's the Task Bar, which seems to have morphed into a pie menu."
Another feature that will probably become vaporware. Trying to get the shareholders happy are we?
Because finger marks all over my monitor is just what I wanted!
Mmm... pie...
The CB App. What's your 20?
I thought A/W was the patent-holder for 'Marking Menus' (at least it was in the 1990s).
First donut universes, now candy bars and pies. Just go to lunch, you insenitive clods.
Invenio via vel creo
Vista, b. 2007, to William and Steven Gates-Ballmer. Laid to rest in 2008 by his parents after a long, painful illness and stunted childhood. Survived by his older brother, Windows XP. May God rest his soul.
Why 2 articles so close about what WON'T be in Windows 7 and now what WILL be in Windows 7... ? Maybe I'm not seeing the forest for the trees but what kind of marketing tactics are these?
For instance in the movie industry... in a highly anticipated movie, let's say a book-to-movie one, you never hear about what they've LEFT OUT until the reviews start pouring in. OTOH, we hear "all about the great scene from the book that's also in the movie"... well before the reviews in the previews or buzz...
Or with Apple announcements we hear at best rumors about what will & won't be in it...
and then we hear from Microsoft a while back (forgive me for not recalling the article) that there won't be much external buzz about the contents of Windows 7 & that development will be much more "sealed" or "internal" for lack of better words...
so why the change of heart? Why are we hearing so much about what will & won't be there? There has to be more reason to this than to just generate some sort of overall interest via marketing in this respect, and I'm wondering beyond the typical answer "...because their last OS sucked ass" mainly because that answer doesn't really answer anything... any more insightful ideas?
The vast majority of people aren't going to be using touch screens... this is just for show. There's a reason this doesn't already exist in OS X.
Stop! Dremel time!
why would they add multi touch? Does windows need this feature? My main gripe with Vista is that it is not a good platform for business. I was really hoping Windows 7 would be more of a corporate OS, but with them showcasing all these superficial eye candy features I am inclined to think that we will see something more akin to Vista on roids.
Pie menus are one of those things that get a lot of attention in academic circles because they have some obvious advantages (menu choices are always the same distance away), but in the real word they always run into problems. The first and biggest problem is scaling. How many items do you have on your start menu right now? How big would the pie get to accommodate all of them? Other problems include what do do when someone clicks on the edge of the screen and how to make it so the user can browse through submenus if they have to (a common operation when you're not sure where something is and you have to hunt for it).
None of these problems are impossible to deal with, but I've yet to see a pie menu system that even attempted to. I would be surprised if Windows 7 ships with pie menus, at least for the start menu.
There are cases where pie menus make a lot of sense, but those tend to be cases where the number of options are relatively small and never change, like in drawing programs.
I read the internet for the articles.
An interesting extension of the multi-touch, although it tends to make more sense on something like Surface or the iPod Touch where keyboard input isn't possible.
I'm not sure how practical this configuration would be. Desktop computers and laptops currently rely on the keyboard and mouse input paradigm, while it may be possible to learn another skill (touching your screen) this will be even more time consuming than moving between the keyboard and the mouse.
Maybe some kiosk applications and the tablet edition of Vista will be viable, I just don't see how this can be deployed to the desktop in a practical fashion.
Eric Sarjeant
eric[@]sarjeant.com
Multi-touch isn't going to help me do my job any easier and I really don't want users pinching and dragging their dirty mits around the new LCD monitors...
In the end though, these features will be in the Ultimate Uber Windows 7, not the version I'll be getting for our desktop users due to costs. We'll end up with yet more of the same features, renamed, and shuffled around in the OS just enough to justify retraining.
So what does that leave me with Windows 7? Looking for desktop alternatives or hoping they extend the XP licensing and support for a few more years.
To quote someone who posted in the original article, "And all I wanted from an operating system was a stable platform that boots in less than five seconds, and that supports applications and other hardware well. I guess I have to go back to my desk and wait some more for an ideal OS?"
Seriously, does anyone have any hope at all for Windows 7? As far as I can tell, the development model is still the same as what produced vista. When Apple comes out with a new OS, I am reasonably sure that it will be snappier, and have some new features that at very least don't get in the way. Looking forward to the next Windows, I have doubts that Microsoft can do anything at all, except make it worse. Maybe I'm wrong, but what evidence is there to prove me wrong? (and please nobody pull out the old argument that Microsoft never keeps working at things until they get it right. It's not true for a number of reasons).
Qxe4
Okay, this is slightly off-topic, but: Why is it that even with our modern hardware, graphics are sometimes still very laggy?
If you look at the start of the video in TFA, you'll see a demo where images are being dragged around via multi-touch. The thing that really bothers me is that the movement of the image is lagging behind the person's finger. My question is: why? Modern hardware is very fast and powerful. The demo computer probably had awesome specs, including a dedicated high-end graphics card. I have trouble believing that this kind of hardware can't update an image position at video rates.
The obvious answer is that the code isn't good. Perhaps it just hasn't been optimized (maybe it's just a tech demo). But frequently even in final implementations I see this kind of behavior.
One of the main ideas with multi-touch displays (and dragging to scroll, zoom, etc.) is to generate an "intuitive" interface that responds in a very "natural" way. But in my opinion, you totally ruin the desired natural immersion if the display cannot keep up with your actions. After all, the idea is to somewhat simulate physical interaction (e.g. shuffling papers)... but in physical reality, we don't experience any kind of "lag" waiting for physics to catch-up.
So, I think more effort should be put into cleaning up those kinds of things. It may seem like a trivial point, but those kinds of details can subtly but crucially affect the user experience (and can mean the difference between an interface that seems to respond to your thoughts, vs. one that is frustrating). I should note that this is an area where Apple has frequently done the right thing. They seem to put a lot of effort into making display transitions very fast and smooth.
Apple has been patenting a lot of aspects of multi-touch. I assume this is possible because they purchased the right to do so from the original "inventors".
IN any case when asked how Windows7 will support the "pinch" feature they demoed without violating apple's patent, the spokesman said that like Longhorn, windows 7 won't arrive till those patents are well expired.
Some drink at the fountain of knowledge. Others just gargle.
The XO has exactly the same type of pie menu to switch from one application to another. Nothing new.
Given that apple probably spent 2 years working on their own touch system for the iPhone before it was even announced you might want to check your dates.
Besides touch tech has been going back to the 1980's it just is starting to become practical. personally there are a lot of interfaces that are perfect for touch input methods.
Telemarketing call centers, restaurants are already using it, retail POS, kiosks, etc.
multi-point touch is going to be a key third input method. the mouse and keyboard are the first two.
i thought once I was found, but it was only a dream.
"I was using multi touch on my MAC 4-5 years ago. "
Not like this, you weren't. The closest you might have come is if you've used an iPhone. Even then, what Microsoft showed was fancier. Watch the video.
"I like to lick butts!" by MobileTatsu-NJG (#32700246) (Score:5, Informative)
I have no interest in touching my screen until they invent technology impervious to fingerprints.
There is none. It's just marketing.
John Titor! I just *knew* I'd run into you on Slashdot. Eventually.
The twitter monologues. Click on my homepage and be amazed.
Multitouch? This is the big thing that will sell the next windows? This is not a OS feature. This is a driver for a specific class of hardware. People with Wacom Cintiq tablets have been doing the exact same thing for years now.
Not to mention that there is no support for this. After all, how many people/corporations buying commodity windows hardware are going to pay the premium to get all their screens with high quality touch?
Also, pie menu is interesting, but problematic. Does it float over the other windows or sit under? Can it be moved around? Will we have to alt-tab to get to the Start menu? How nice will it play with multiple screen setups and other non standard desktop layouts?
I Agree with your assessment, the touch display will be the third major input device. Touch still has a way to go (mostly price wise) before it reaches the end consumer as a household product. As you stated touch already has a big presence in the commercial world (and i expect that the touch screen will continue to make large advances in that area). This particular demo by microsoft seemed to lean towards the consumer when in reality this is a feature they will more heavily market toward (and be most useful to) commercial organizations.
I notice that this machine redraws on zooms quickly, and creates a travel route quickly. That means the box has some real horsepower.
And yet, the dragging is way behind the finger, the responses of input and menu popup is slow -- it looks like running a modern paint program on an old machine.
This is not going to make for a pleasant user experience. Why is that stuff so uncrisp?
Why is this modded flamebait?
If we take the history of Longhorn/Vista into account, it's very much possible that it will never be realized on a real production level. Disclosing it now, is clearly a move to stay in the news, which is mainly relevant the stock market.
Come on, what were the last great news from Redmond? They clearly need some publicity, so yes it might be vaporware.
"Hannibal's plans never work right. They just work." Amy/A-Team
Multi-touch will be accompanied by multi-crash, where Windows tries to compete with multiple apps for kernel priority at the same time from you trying to touch multiple things, and then they will all independently crash! yay.
stuff |
Given that apple probably spent 2 years working on their own touch system for the iPhone before it was even announced you might want to check your dates.
What dates? No dates were mentioned in the original comment, just an observation that Microsoft was working on their own technology before Apple introduced the iPhone and therefore, probably didn't steal the idea from Apple. But FWIW, Microsoft was working on multi-touch at least as far back as 2003.
There seems to be an assumption that if Apple introduces a technology first then any other company introducing similar technology is just stealing the ideas from them. While Microsoft has certainly been guilty of this, they don't always do so.
Umm, guys? Can we be a bit more professional in the article and not include flame-inducing comments like "It seems like the Windows team have switched their focus for inspiration from Mac OS X to the iPhone OS."? The whole MS sucks, or Apple sucks, or MS is copying apple, etc thing is really annoying for us non-fanboys, and the least you can do is let some annoying commenter make those references, it's really annoying to see it IN the article... -Taylor
Worldwide Military budgets: $2100 billion. Worldwide Space Exploration budgets: $38 billion. Really, world? Really?
You make it sound so dirty :(
It looks neat but I wonder how practical is a multi-touch screen unless you can fully replace either a keyboard or mouse with it. We've all seen the applications of touch interfaces in movies. But in those cases, they could have used a mouse and keyboard. It wasn't vital that it had to be touch technology.
In applications were touch is essential, they are most often very specialized. If you look at the touch-screen applications today, they are for areas where a keyboard and mouse are not practical and often the interfaces are simplified to allow fewer choices. For example in restaurants, waiter use them as registers. Everything is usually driven by a limited number of screen buttons that they can push. For the iPhone, the screen is customized around specific functions like making calls, etc. You could use them to write term papers, but it wouldn't be very practical.
It would seem that adding multi-touch to a screen was be extraneous. Sure you could do a few things , but it would be another input device that you have to manage. These days, people have to break work flow when they switch between a keyboard and a mouse by going sideways. If you'd replace the mouse with the screen, you'd have to move forward and possibly shift your body. I just don't see that as practical.
Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
would take this stuff seriously? The problem is most will.
./ can be laughed at for calling some dev groups blood, sweat and tears, and management's gravy train broken.
1. Sure microsoft delivers above-average returns and that's enough reason for hanging onto it. But stock prices have some -future prospects- built into it. I see none at Microsoft. Zero. Especially when they flush dev resources down the drain for their forthcoming knock-off iPhones that probably won't see the light of day for a decade.
Off-topic
My gut feeling is, there's a growing reality distortion field that most of the people/groups managing funds are working in. If I had to guess, I'd say their math/quant models are wrong because these are a relatively new set of economic conditions. News disguised as PR fills this gap nicely and brings some sense of equilibrium back.
Meanwhile some hack on
Flame on!
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
The real problem here is that Microsoft is just regurgitating what we saw from Jeff Han two years ago.
Draggable freely-resizeable photo viewer? Amazing, MS, welcome to 2006! Pinch-zoom map viewer? Again, good to see you MS engineers watched Han's TED presentation on Youtube; I liked it too!
So they can integrate a (laggy) version of the tech into the OS. Step 1, done.
Now, how about some actual design? Copying two-year-old TED videos doesn't count; let's see some insight into how this tech can be used to make managing files easier, make navigating data relationships easier, and so on. Seriously, fire half your UI "design" team and replace them with the folks who built Photosynth; maybe bring in some of the Zune embedded UI team too; they might figure out how to actually make a decent multi-touch UI for Windows 7.
Or will Ballmer be content to just have "OH LOOK PHOTO SORTING" on top of a slightly less stable and slightly more DRMed future Windows release?
If history is anything to go by...
Your mind is clear / The things that you fear / Will fade with how much you / Believe what you hear
This is getting pretty pathetic. I am even willing to give XP some credit for being a decent OS, even more so now compared to Vista. (Maybe that is the secret plan, release Vista, demo Windows 7, and then triple the cost of XP since it is "out of support"). But seriously, Vista Aero (Sounds alot like Aqua), then we have the Sideboard vs Dashboard, now multitouch. MS is clearly clueless to what is really happening. They apparently think it is the eye candy wizbang stuff from Apple that makes it attractive. So (true to their origins) they copy Apple innovations and find a stunning way to make them completely useless or unusable.
MS is losing huge ground when it comes to "just works". The non computer savvy have come to accept that computers crash, behave erratically, or otherwise do flakey things on a whim due to the tremendous amount of glitchy nonsense that MS foists upon the user. OS X and even Linux are gaining some pretty significant traction while MS fuddles around in circles forcing upgrades into more garbage the user doesn't really want or need.
Though I suppose the other secret plan could be that fact that this type of feature crap continues to bloat the OS at an alarming rate requiring much faster and newer hardware just to make your computer usable. I think they are setting up to recieve kickbacks from hardware vendors on sales to make up for their other failures.
The only change I can believe in is what I find in my couch cushions.
It hardly sounds logical to insist that keyboards and mice will be replaced with touch screens which are doubling as your display.
Unless you expect to put your screen in your lap and cramp your neck looking down, or separate the display from the touch surface, this will not replace keyboard and mouse interactivity entirely.
There is a problem in that human arms are not designed to be held away from the body for extended time periods. Keyboards work well simply because you can comfortably hold your arms in that position for extended periods while looking ahead instead of down (and if it's in your lap and the screen is straight ahead, what good is a touch screen if you aren't looking at it?)
See Gorilla Arm: http://www.hacker-dictionary.com/terms/gorilla-arm
Try this to see the effect:
Hold your preferred arm in front of your body and point with only your index finger away from your chest. Now draw small figure-eights and make a pushing motion like you are using an ATM. Now do this for multiple hours. Yeah, didn't think so.
I only see this being viable as an additional option useful for some applications like CAD or 3d Modeling work, but not as a primary navigation tool for my OS or ESPECIALLY web browser. I really don't feel the necessity to fake turning pages with my entire arm while reading document on my computer.
- Toast
Multitouch is the new mouse. Did you also dismiss the mouse as too consumer and not business friendly?
Without multitouch, Windows is limited in where it can go, and as Apple has already shown, multitouch is not superficial but fundamental to making certain form factors work.
GPL Deconstructed
but since I switched to mac, I now use spotlight to do everything, from switching context between apps to launching apps to finding documents to open. Typing 3 letters is usually enough to do all of this and is infinitely faster than moving your hand to the mouse, navigating the mouse and clicking on some area.
I would say spotlight is bringing back the power of CLI to the GUI world (well almost).
CLI is still the fastest way to work and will always be, until computers become part of our brains.
As the island of our knowledge grows, so does the shore of our ignorance.
Most people here already use one hand for typing and one for...well...other things. That leaves NO hands to use the touch interface!
Apple and Microsoft must have attained Mutually Assured IP Destruction by now - if they open the silo doors on their patent portfolios and press the red buttons then it won't be over until its Microsoft's patent on the universal Turing machine vs. Apple's patent on "representing information via a system of symbols"** and there's nothing left but the cockroaches. (What's that? the cockroaches have been nibbling on GM grain and are now owned by Monsanto? Darn!)
(** I seriously hope that I am making this shit up, but the way things are going...)
In a survey of 100 programmers, 111111 thought that duck-typing was a good idea.
Microsoft is always late.. And when they finally made it, they act like they were the first. ROFTL
Linux (and not only) supports multi-input on X for at least two years. You can run whatever multitouch device you want with it.
Check out the multi-input X project website at http://wearables.unisa.edu.au/mpx/
This is not vaporware. Microsoft has been multitouching my wallet since the early 1990s.
Rich And Stupid is not so bad as Working For Rich And Stupid.