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eBay's Plan to Force PayPal Rejected Down Under

Posted by CmdrTaco on from the monopoly-schmonopoly dept.

Jm_aus writes "eBay's plan to force all users to use PayPal only has been rejected by Australia's competition regulator, the ACCC. This followed 650 submissions from eBay users as well as from Australian banks, other payment services, the Australian Reserve Bank, and (anonymously) Google, which aired a lot of dirty laundry about PayPal's unresponsiveness and failure to sign up to the local banking code of conduct. Apparently the public benefits from eBay's 'Bad Buyer Experience' elimination program are likely to be 'minimal.' There is a period for appeals."

58 of 181 comments (clear)

  1. Right, because PayPal's better... by autocracy · · Score: 5, Interesting

    As a buyer, I really want to use my credit card directly. PayPal, last time I used it, only covered a $200 return or so. I went straight through to my credit card company (which is linked to my PayPal account) and did a chargeback through them. PayPal sent me a nastigram saying if you keep that up, we'll cut you off.

    Yeah, thanks but no thanks EBay.

    --
    SIG: HUP
    1. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by autocracy · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I did my homework, and that's why they have my credit card on the back end (which, thankfully, can tell them to get stuffed). You're right about linking to any account that keeps cash on hand in it. PayPal also has a long history of locking cash in its customer accounts. Really, they're just terrible to everybody involved. I don't believe I've bought anything with my account since that time.

      From a seller's point of view: The EBay style of charging the seller commission, then charging the seller a percentage of PayPal too kinda gets me. Sure, they're treating them like the separate company they used to be, but come on. I suppose you get what you get for having something less than a true credit card merchant account (which costs).

      As an aside rant, I'm sad that nobody does a cash discount anymore. I'd happily pay you on a 2% reduction to save you the 3% or whatever my CC company charges. Well, really to save myself 2%, but you'd profit as a vendor!

      --
      SIG: HUP
    2. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

      The reason why you don't get cash discounts anymore is that it's against Visa/MC/AmEx merchant terms and conditions.

      It's even disallowed to require the transaction to be over a certain value to accept payment via credit cards.

    3. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by travdaddy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Nobody does a cash discount anymore because it's against eBay policy. eBay is all about making the seller unable to get around eBay's exorbitant fees in any way possible. That is their entire basis for forcing PayPal.

      To give an example of their total fee structure: after selling a small item for $30, you're only going to see around $24.50 for it after fees, and then you still have to pay to ship it.

      --
      Adidas To Bring Back Sneakernet
    4. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 3, Informative

      Lots of places still do minimum limits, though. "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here."

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    5. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by tlhIngan · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Lots of places still do minimum limits, though. "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here."


      That's against the terms of the merchant agreement to require a lower limit.

      What you might be thinking of is the similar "Minimum $3 charge if using credit card". Your quote implies that if you buy a $1 item, you can't pay by credit card. My quote says if you want to buy a $1 item, you will be charged $3 for it instead if you use a credit card.

      It's a very subtle thing - it implies a cash discount (buy item for $1 via cash, or $3 via credit card), but it also isn't (if you buy 3 $1 items, it's $3).

      What I want to know is if merchant accounts don't allow cash discounts, why don't they go after the tons of people who advertise prices, then say "price is after 3% cash discount"?
    6. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by creepynut · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Merchants are not allowed to set minimum or maximum amounts for transactions on Visa. I'm too lazy to find it, but I know Mastercard has a similar rule.

      In response to the Anonymous Coward, they are allowed to give cash discounts, but it has to be clearly stated to the customer before hand. A couple of the local computer stores here do this, but they have labels all over the store saying "All prices are 2% cash or debit discounted"

      Source:
      For the US (I'm in Canada, but I can't find the doc on visa.ca). See Page 9/10:
      http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card_acceptance_guide.pdf

    7. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by Alwin+Henseler · · Score: 2, Insightful

      eBay is all about making the seller unable to get around eBay's exorbitant fees in any way possible. That is their entire basis for forcing PayPal. eBay takes a fee on items sold. This fee is based on what the item sells for, not what it costs to ship it (buyer pays that).

      Ofcourse if you pay through PayPal, PayPal will also take a fee, this time depending on the total amount (item price + shipping).

      With eBay & PayPal being 2 hands on one belly, making PayPal compulsory is something I read as an attempt to double the standard eBay fees, and grab a bit of the shipping costs as well.

      Not that I care much. Read carefully what you sign up for if you sell items through eBay. Read even better what you sign up for when you open a PayPal account. Use both for what they're good for, not for everything. PayPal is just a payment option. I'd quickly drop eBay if that was not the case.
    8. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Informative

      PayPal does indeed suck for sellers as well as buyers.

      Really I don't object to them charging a percentage on transactions - it's still cheaper than a full merchant account. What I very much do object to is them charging twice what Google Checkout does for an equivalent transaction. What I object to even more is being forced as a seller to use PayPal - incidentally does anyone know who in the UK I should make a complaint about this to? It reeks of anticompetitive behaviour, as the Australians have realised.

      eBay actually has Google Checkout listed as 'Not permitted' on their Accepted Payments page, and anyone who has ever tried to email eBay's support team to question this will know how hard it is to get an answer (they normally just spout irrelevant canned responses until you give up) but I did finally get an email from eBay explaining that I am allowed to use it but that I must offer it alongside PayPal and outside of the eBay checkout process.

      I won't even go into PayPal's dubious dispute processes and lack of safeguards - they are well documented elsewhere, but again the argument of "don't use them" is rendered moot by eBay's policies.

    9. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Merchants are not allowed to set minimum or maximum amounts for transactions on Visa. I'm too lazy to find it, but I know Mastercard has a similar rule. Right, but that doesn't mean that they don't do it. Here in Maine, I would say that more stores have minimums than don't.
      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    10. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      That's against the terms of the merchant agreement to require a lower limit. I know. But up here at least, it still happens.

      What you might be thinking of is the similar "Minimum $3 charge if using credit card". Your quote implies that if you buy a $1 item, you can't pay by credit card. My quote says if you want to buy a $1 item, you will be charged $3 for it instead if you use a credit card. That would also be against the rules of the CC companies. And that's not what I'm talking about. I'm quite literally talking about a hand-lettered sign on the register saying "Your transaction must be at least $3.00 to use a credit card here, sorry for the inconvenience."
      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    11. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by MoonBuggy · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The post mentioned total fee structure, not just the PayPal fees. On your $38 auction you would be paying at least another $2.74 in eBay fees, and that's just going on the bare minimum amounts.

      There's also the fact that there are services equivalent to PayPal that charge 1.5%+$0.30, so its service simply can't compete on value. That's precisely why eBay are now choosing to force sellers to offer it - in order to prevent them from using more economical options.

    12. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by creepynut · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Report them to your bank/card issuer! Nobody will stop doing it if we let them get away with it.

      I was once told I couldn't use my credit card for a small transaction (there was no posted minimum either). I wasn't sure at the time about these things so I didn't put up a fuss and paid cash. I checked into it, once I learned that they were violating the merchant rules I filed a complaint with my bank (the card issuer).

      I received a reply a few days later that Visa was looking into it. Strangely enough, I haven't had any issues using my card there since.

      RBC Royal Bank has a web based form to send them your thoughts. I'm sure other banks have similar contact forms, but even if they don't, pick up the phone and complain. They (the merchants) are the ones breaking the rules, why should we let them get away with it?

    13. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2, Informative

      Report them to your bank/card issuer! Nobody will stop doing it if we let them get away with it. Why? I don't use credit cards there, and I understand why they do it--below $3.00, they lose money on the transaction.

      It's a bad rule that shouldn't exist, IMO, and serves only to force business owners to make a tradeoff: take a loss or have a sign there that gets a customer to buy a pack of gum?
      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    14. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by NeoSkandranon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      As I've said in other posts: They knew the rules of the game before signing with a CC clearinghouse.

      If they feel they can't profit on taking a CC transaction below a certain amount, they should either: Find a processing provider with better rates, not take CCs at all, or raise their prices such that larger purchases offset some of the cost.

      Their profit margins aren't my concern, and it's silly to be expected to carry cash to make small purchases.

      --
      If you can't see the value in jet powered ants you should turn in your nerd card. - Dunbal (464142)
    15. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Informative

      Unfortunately in the UK banks are no longer required to help you out or issue chargebacks in cases involving PayPal. The reason is that the banking code only requires them to do anything when you have a dispute with the person you had a transaction with, which in this case is PayPal. You send the money to PayPal, and then in a separate transaction they send it to the seller. So, if you problem is with the seller, they don't have to help.

      I started a petition to get the law changed: http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/3partyccs/

      --
      const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
      SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
    16. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by FishWithAHammer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I get the feeling that you've never lived in a rural area. The situation is considerably more complex than you assume.

      --
      "You can either have software quality or you can have pointer arithmetic, but you cannot have both at the same time."
    17. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by Lershac · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And you do not own a business obviously. THERE ARE NO BETTER TERMS. Everybody has that clause. You want the business owner to take it up the ass so you dont have to carry around a few dollars? You want the business owner to lose money on the transactions that are less than $3 or whatever arbitrary amount they set? Get in touch with reality, I am in business to make money, and if I am not going to make money doing business with you, YOU can go do business somewhere else. The minimums in the CC acceptance contracts are there for the CC company benefit, so THEY make money on every transaction. NO SLIDING SCALE, they make some base fee plus a percentage on EVERY SINGLE TRANSACTION. How are you upset with the small business owner for protecting his profits and not with the CC clearinghouse for doing WORSE? get called a hypocrite much?

      --
      Chuck
    18. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by GeckoAddict · · Score: 3, Informative
      When I worked for a large bank , the rule was that they were not allowed to specify different pricing for CC vs cash. A discount for using a particular method was allowed under the regulations.
      It looks like that's still the rule. Page 10 of the Visa Merchant Card Acceptance Guide

      Always treat Visa transactions like any other transaction; that is, you may not impose any surcharge on a Visa transaction. You may, however, offer a discount for cash transactions, provided that the offer is clearly disclosed to customers and the cash price is presented as a discount from the standard price charged for all other forms of payment. And Page 9:

      Always honor valid Visa cards in your acceptance category, regardless of the dollar amount of the purchase. Imposing minimum or maximum purchase amounts in order to accept a Visa card transaction is a violation of the Visa rules. Mastercard regulations are similar:

      5.9.3 Minimum/Maximum Transaction Amount Prohibited
      A Merchant must not require, or indicate that it requires, a minimum or maximum Transaction amount to accept a valid and properly presented Card.

      5.9.1 Discrimination
      A Merchant must not engage in any acceptance practice that discriminates against or discourages the use of a Card in favor of any other acceptance brand.
    19. Re:Right, because PayPal's better... by TheOriginalRevdoc · · Score: 2, Informative

      This was outlawed here in Australia a few years ago, so merchants are now free to charge a fee for credit card purchases (which some would call offering a discount for cash).

      The main reason for doing this was to make the costs of buying by credit card transparent. Under the old system, credit card providers charged a fee to the merchant, but the fee was hidden from the consumer. The merchants had to absorb this cost by raising prices slightly across the board. That meant that the banks were effectively applying a small sales tax to nearly all retail sales. Estimates varied, but it was generally thought to be around 1% to 2%. It doesn't sound like much, but across every sale in the country, it's a huge amount.

      Most big retailers continue to do this, but smaller retailers either have a mimimum amount for credit card purchases, or tack on a fee of around 3%.

  2. Can somebody explain? by muellerr1 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    In most countries, why is PayPal allowed to act like a bank without being regulated like a bank? I've never understood how they get away with that.

    --
    steampunk web design
    1. Re:Can somebody explain? by PoliTech · · Score: 5, Funny

      For the same reason that Ebay acts like a fencing operation for stolen goods, but is never charged as such.

    2. Re:Can somebody explain? by Paranatural · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think it's because PayPal is fairly undefined. It does seem like it's a bank and so people unthinkingly treat it as if it is one, but of course it has no actual bank foundation. And, of course, they have no imperative to become a bank, because then they'd have to follow the rules.

      I'm just hoping that all countries everywhere enact similar rulings. Paypal gets on my damn nerves.

    3. Re:Can somebody explain? by LordKaT · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Because they've settled out of court for large sums of cash before things ever went to trial.

      eBay has done its homework on PayPal and knows it cannot turn nearly as huge of a profit as it does if PayPal has to comply with all of the banking regulations.

    4. Re:Can somebody explain? by arivanov · · Score: 4, Informative

      1. It is more counterfeit than stolen.

      2. The french have actually charged eBay with both on a number of occasions.

      --
      Baker's Law: Misery no longer loves company. Nowadays it insists on it
      http://www.sigsegv.cx/
    5. Re:Can somebody explain? by mpapet · · Score: 2, Informative

      At best, they would argue they are a payment processor. A Bank does many other types of cash and lending operations.

      FYI: You can start your own payment processing service like any business. Where you are going to get screwed, is when you need to connect to banks for electronic funds transfers. ACH rates are low, but getting into the network is not cheap or easy.

      Payment processing is one of the monopolies absolutely no one cares about despite the broad harm to consumers. F*i*r*s*t D,a,t,a and V^i^s^a.

      --
      http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
    6. Re:Can somebody explain? by Z34107 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Because PayPal is not a bank. It doesn't offer loans, it doesn't pay interest, it doesn't have a required holdings (no loans = 100% cash on hand), etc, etc.

      PayPal is as much of a bank as Chuck E. Cheese is a bank for handing out those game tokens and tickets. It's just a convenient way for you to give money to eBay before you spend it on an actual good (the appeal of which I have yet to understand.)

      --
      DATABASE WOW WOW
    7. Re:Can somebody explain? by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 2, Informative

      The real question to ask is how the government can get away with forcing any person or company (bank or otherwise) to do with their property other than they wish.

    8. Re:Can somebody explain? by TheRaven64 · · Score: 2, Informative
      PayPal doesn't just do payment processing. When you create an account with them (which you need to do in order to pay someone), you put money into this account and then transfer it to the seller's account. You can either do this in one step, or put the money in the account first and leave it there for a while. The seller can then keep the money in their account or transfer it elsewhere. If they leave the money in there (or if you put money in your account and leave it there for a while without sending it to someone), then PayPal do pay interest.

      They give you an account, into which you can put money. They look after money for you and pay interest on it. Sounds a lot like a bank to me...

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    9. Re:Can somebody explain? by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "One of the principles of the social contract that one becomes a part of in a theoretically democratic society..."

      When did I sign this contract? When I was born? Am I agreeing to this contract every second (since birth) that I do not quit my job, take all of my property on a plane, and spend my life savings moving to another country? Is that how the contract works in a "democratic society"? If so, where is this explanation written down, and how does it justify the violation of everyone's natural rights as rational beings?

      "Your argument cuts both ways, one could as easily say that one who advocates less government are risking the overwhelming violence of ... anarchy...

      I am not advocating no government or even less government. I am advocating that the government only function according to its original intended purpose - to uphold the rights of the citizenry; this is done through the use of force, when necessary, by the courts and the military/police. Whether such a move results in more or less government is of no concern. What the government has become instead is a rights-violating machine.

    10. Re:Can somebody explain? by InvisblePinkUnicorn · · Score: 2, Interesting

      "(e.g. the natural right to kill someone and take their stuff)"

      There is no such right. Read up on Wikipedia as well, if you'd like.

      I'm perfectly happy giving up my right to take someone's stuff"

      You don't have such a right. See above.

    11. Re:Can somebody explain? by immcintosh · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Good ol' French. When you need somebody to say, "Fuck you all, we do our own shit," they can always be counted on.

  3. And furthermore... by Barny · · Score: 4, Funny

    ... we would like to add, on behalf of the Australians who you are trying to blatantly extort:

    *ahem*

    "Like fuck you will"

    That was an extract from the actual brief, word for word, honest :P

    --
    ...
    /me sighs
  4. You're in luck mate! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    As a buyer, I really want to use my credit card directly.

    Just fill out the form at gday.ebay.mate/safecredit.asp and we'll get you started faster than a kangaroo can steal your vegemite sandwich.

  5. Re:elimination program? by clang_jangle · · Score: 4, Interesting

    What's that ""Bad Buyer Experience" elimination program" ?


    If my personal experience is any indication, it's the process whereby upon reporting being victimised by an eBay "power seller" eBay threatens to find you guilty of being a "bad buyer" and threatens to place sanctions on your eBay and Paypal accounts unless you pay up. The workaround I found was to change all my eBay user info to the crooked seller's email address and a fictitious physical address and I canceled my paypal account. :P

    It probably helped that I did this within an hour of eBay finding in favor of the dishonest seller (item was a Chinese counterfeit and did not function properly, also they attempted to charge for two items when I only bought one item). This was about three months ago, I've not heard anything about the matter since. Obviously, eBay lost me as a customer.
    --
    Caveat Utilitor
  6. Paypal sucks blah blah by Slimee · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I can't stand paypal. I've had an account since the earlier days before there really were options, though I so rarely use it because without PAYING for an account, I can only transfer money through a direct bank transfer. On EVERY ONE of my ebay listings I have to add a footnote alerting people that they can't pay with a credit card through paypal because paypal won't allow me to do that...

    And the only way to be able to do that is to sign up for an account where they take a percentage of all of my transactions.

    How does that commercial go? "It's my money and I want it now!"
    But seriously, I'm tired of paypal, I just wish it would go the way of the dinosaurs because it's such a frustrating site to use to transfer funds.

    1. Re:Paypal sucks blah blah by aonaran · · Score: 2, Informative

      Where do you think you can get a service that allows you to accept CC payments without paying them a transaction fee?

      Merchant Visa/MC accounts with your bank will charge fees too. How do you think they make their money?

    2. Re:Paypal sucks blah blah by Slimee · · Score: 2, Informative

      Yeah but the thing is, with an account where I can't accept these transactions, people are still ABLE to attempt them.

      It's very frustrating to cancel a transaction, send an email to the person telling them I can't accept it and to send me the money through their checking account instead. It's a process that shouldn't have to happen. If I don't have the business premier account or whatever it's called, then people shouldn't be able to initiate a credit card transaction.

    3. Re:Paypal sucks blah blah by Slimee · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yeah, I've been using Craigslist more and more for things I want, and I find everything goes a bit more smoothly when there's no hidden fees and surcharges for every move you make. Ugh don't even get me started on fees....$40 to list a car on ebaymotors? BS

  7. Inbound yeah, but not outbound... by Penguinisto · · Score: 2, Interesting
    I use Paypal to receive money with (it is hella convenient for some folks I do work for on the side to pay me that way).



    OTOH, the down side is that they extract fees that would make a bank or credit union blush for every transaction. Also, someone governmental needs to take a serious look at forcing them to be regulated and to follow the same rules as a real bank.

    /P

    --
    Quo usque tandem abutere, Nimbus, patientia nostra?
    1. Re:Inbound yeah, but not outbound... by Achromatic1978 · · Score: 2

      I bet it's "hella convenient" to you, too, undocumented income on the side that the tax man knows nothing about, and isn't linked to you by anything more than an email address, if you want.

  8. Don't bother by sihker · · Score: 2, Interesting

    In PayPals opinion I still live with polar bears, barbarians and blood feud. In post Soviet Russia, paypal uses one way money transfers only. Once you transferred money to paypal account, you can only spend it, no transferring back :D I for once welcome our money grabbing overlords :-D

  9. Don't get me wrong, I love PayPal by multi-flavor-geek · · Score: 3, Interesting

    I have had a PayPal account since they had that send money with no fees promotion that my now ex-wife and her friend used to rack up a couple of thousand frequent flyer miles on each others WorldPerks cards. I generally trust PayPal and I like the money market feature on my account, but it is not the only way to pay and it should not be set up that way. The world needs competition and it is going to hurt a lot of people who may just want to buy or sell one thing and don't want to set up an account for that one hassle to go through. For some things PayPal is perfect, but not for everything. On websites where you have an actually established revenue stream and are not just selling one or two things a day I think it looks bad if you are running PayPal only. I recently backed out of a deal to buy a stack of sub woofers from a company because I didn't want to deal with the creation of a PayPal account on the business card for one transaction. They lost out on a big sale, just because they were stuck with PayPal and PayPal only and I know that I am not the only one who responds to things this way.

    --
    Like arts? Like cheesy little Indie mags? Check out www.artwerkmag.com, and don't laugh at the bad coding please.
  10. What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON by RaigetheFury · · Score: 5, Informative

    I was part of the massive lawsuit against Paypal back when there were plenty of scammers. One such tried to screw me and even though I provide more than enough evidence to PROVE without a shadow of a doubt this guy was scamming the system, committing mail fraud, AND on top of that was using stolen credit cards, AND i gave him his confirmed address...

    They still sided with him. However, I knew this was a possibility and I moved the money out of paypal, and blocked them from charging me back through my bank who happily sided with me.

    About 6 months later I joined the lawsuit, and provided all of the evidence to them for exhibits. If you didn't know we won... and won big. Not happy with the default settlement offering I filed for the full settlement and received my check a few months later. I framed it... and I will NEVER do business with Paypal again.

    I don't care if Ebay bought them. They do not follow banking guidelines, they consistently have proven themselves untrustworthy and generally don't abide by the law OR their own policies.

    If Ebay goes to Paypal only, I think they'll soon realize the size of the mistake they will make when other auction sites blow past them at 90mph!

    1. Re:What about those of us who SUED PAYPAL and WON by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

      they'll soon realize the size of the mistake they will make when other auction sites blow past them What other auction sites are there? I know of a few, but they all suck. They will have a hard time beating eBay who has television adverts. The other problem is most of the other auction sites are as much of a rip-off as eBay, both in the fees they charge and the stuff listed on them. Most of the other auction sites have junk that goes for above retail.... just like eBay.
  11. Ebay is Dead to Me, Paypal is Evil by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 3, Insightful

    I sort of enjoyed bidding for things on eBay back when it was new and there were deals to be had, but now nearly everything is at a fixed price and the only purpose it has for someone like me is to buy/sell used computer parts, which I can do elsewhere without the risk or hassle. I feel like the new eBay is mostly for soccer moms who don't know of alternatives, or for people who have very specialized interests with no other options (usually there are other, cheaper, safer options).

    On the other hand, I never liked Paypal. As far as I could tell its sole purpose was to make it easier for sellers to scam buyers, since the only protection given to buyers is something on the order of $100. I know some people who bought Apple laptops on eBay, never received them, but were unable to get all of their ~$2000 back. If it happened to me, I'd do what another poster said today and stop the payment to Paypal from my credit card, but if it were me I wouldn't have made the purchase in the first place.

    --
    "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
  12. Birds of a feather.... by Chas · · Score: 2, Informative

    Sorry, but EBay is just as shady as PayPal is.

    I refuse to EVER give any more money to PayPal or EBay again.

    --


    Chas - The one, the only.
    THANK GOD!!!
  13. Verfied Accounts by drxenos · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I found out the hard way that when you "verify" your account, the bank account used to verify your PayPal account becomes the primary account. All payments you make through PayPal come out of it by default. I called them because all my purchases were coming out of my bank account and not my credit card. They said the bank account has to be the primary, and the only way to change it was to revert to "unverified," which I did. I like the protection I get from using a credit card. Payments extracted from a checking account has no where near the same protection.

    --


    Anonymous Cowards suck.
    1. Re:Verfied Accounts by AbRASiON · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Yep, mod this up! It's an absoloute fucking scam (again) on paypals behalf.

      Once you add bank to an existing account, it opts to directly withdraw from the bank rather than credit card, you CAN'T make the credit card default.
      In Australia, this means I get charged bank fees for using my regular bank account, (maximum 5 transactions a month free, than small but annoying fees)

      The credit card obviously has no fees - they are happy with the interest you pay as a dipshit consumer in debt (which I'm not)

      Paypal have done this so that people can't do ccard chargebacks as easily.

    2. Re:Verfied Accounts by porcupine8 · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Huh. They let you set accounts back to Unverified once they've been verified?

      I wonder how often they let you re-verify an account. Seeing as how they deposit several cents into your account totally free as part of the verification process... I smell an untapped profit opportunity! :)

      --
      Warning: Apple/Nintendo fangirl. Likes her electronics cute & cuddly. May be rabid.
  14. Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife by shadowofwind · · Score: 5, Informative

    Paypal claimed the seller had the money, and told the seller we (the buyer) had the money, and lied and stonewalled for months. Finally they just gave the money back without explanation after a state Attourney General inquired on our behalf.

    The previous time I posted this on /., I was modded down as a liar. But unbelievable as the stody is, it is the truth.

    In fairness to Paypal, our experience was shortly after it was purchased by EBay, so probably EBay cleaned it up some since then.

    1. Re:Paypal tried to steal $1200 from my wife by anomaly256 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      A mate of mine got scammed once. Bought a game console, seller claimed it was AU and came with 2 games, turned out to be a Jap one with no games. I did some digging, contacted the other buyers this seller had dealt with, and they all claimed exactly the same thing happened to them. I contacted ebay through my friend's account, they investigated and found the seller to be fraudulent and locked his account. However, the seller was long gone by that stage. The mobile # he was passing around was no longer valid. Ebay refused to hand over any information regarding this person who's contact details turned out to be bogus, and paypal refused to hand over the banking information they had provided. Even after acknowledging he was a scammer. Legal proceedings to subpoena this information are in progress. Ebay/Paypal, if you're reading this: Stop protecting these people when you KNOW they commit the crime of fraud. It's only hurting you.

  15. Is this issue PayPal or Ebay? by awjr · · Score: 2, Informative

    From what I'm reading above, there is a major issue with dodgy sellers on Ebay. Paypal are just handling the payment and offer better safeguards than a transfer to a bank account. TFA is focusing on the fact it would cause a monopoly situation and the ACCC wants competition in the market.

    What actually needs to happen is the ability to have a "one click" report item as dodgy. Ebay gains too much from providing a lax vetting process to ever get serious about it.

    When governments actually get serious about this and start arresting Ebay executives and putting them in prison rather than fining them pathetically small amounts is when we will see them doing something about it.(http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20080604/bs_afp/franceluxurypiracytrialusebay))

  16. Never been burnt, yet *knock on Woody Allen* by macdaddy · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I've been using Paypal since the very beginning. I've been using eBay and Yahoo Auctions since they were first established. I was thinking about how much $$$ I've spent on auction items over the years back when I last did my taxes. My purchases peaked in 2002 with just over $16k in purchase. In total I have bought nearly $100k of crap off of them both over the last decade. Amazingly enough I have never been burnt. All of my eBay purchases used PayPal I'm sorry to say. The only time I ever had a problem I simply did a chargeback with my CC. PP got pissed and threatened me; when I said I was going to do a chargeback they transferred me internally to a guy who did the threatening. He was obviously reading prepared material from a script. They never locked my account though. That was before you had to verify yourself to send $$$.

    I moved back in 2003. That prompted me to move to a new bank as well. I was fortunate enough to have put my old bank account into Paypal when I verified my account. When I moved I sure as hell didn't update the info. It remained that way until this Spring when I accidentally forgot to change the payment method from PayPal's default of a bank account to a CC. They realized that my account was closed at that time and unverified my PP account. I had to give them my new bank account info. I hated to do it but I had to complete the purchase. I'm seriously considering signing up for a new account somewhere, using it for 6 months and then closing it just so I can get back to the way it was.

    It's amazing that I've never actually gotten burnt considering how much I've used PP. The vast majority of the equipment I buy is networking gear. I'm pretty careful who I buy from. If I have any feeling that it's not a good seller I move on. I won't buy from anyone on the West coast (too much counterfeit Cisco hardware comes from China into the West coast). I'll even read all the seller's reviews and go back through their past auctions and the buyers to see if it looks legit. I guess being careful pays off. I'm definitely not a PP or eBay shill. I lost a fair bit of money in eBay stock and I think the wannabe bank PayPal should rot in litigation hell, but I never have been burnt.

  17. Already too late for me by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    How this has affected me...

    I used to use eBay and Paypal quite a bit and for the most part I've had good experiences. For quite a while I kept a significant amount of money (nearly $10,000) in my Paypal money market account, earning a fairly decent interest rate (one of the higher rates I could find at the time). I was aware that Paypal was not FDIC insured but I was fairly confident that Paypal wouldn't collapse. I had one eBay purchase where Paypal backed me up and I got a refund (except for shipping). I really didn't have any serious complaints.

    After hearing the news about eBay trying to force the use of Paypal, I had to rethink my position. I was concerned that such a decision would negatively impact their business and made me less secure in keeping my money there. More importantly, I felt I could no longer "invest" in the Paypal business model. Their interest rates had also been dropping so I started looking around at bank accounts. Surprisingly (or maybe not so, in hindsight) I found one that had a better interest rate and transferred my money. Paypal was more convenient and I'm sorry to miss out on that, but Paypal has lost my business (over $10,000 worth) and I'm not going back now.

  18. How CC and Merchant accounts really work.... by ryanhull · · Score: 2, Informative

    Offering a Cash discount (Discount for Cash) is not against ANY CC company or processor agreement. What is NOT allowed is charging a fee for a CC transaction, and / or a minimum / maximum limit of the transaction. Any retailer has the right to offer a discount for cash. What they can't do is list their prices in any advertisement, publication, etc without stipulating that the price shown is for cash. If it's not on the advert, then they can't charge more for a CC transaction. Furthermore, a lot of retailers DO offer a discount for cash. Usually a pittance, 1-3%, but nonetheless a discount. Also, people need to know how to use their check-card at retailers as well, so that they don't get hit with transaction fees from their bank or the retailers processing agent. If anyone has a check-card / cash-card, etc. that is labeled as MC or VISA, and is tied to a checking account, etc., make sure you choose CREDIT, and not debit as the payment method. If you choose debit, and type in your PIN, you get charges, not the retailer. YMMV. I've done POS work and have dealt with several of these terms and conditions. You'd be surprised how quickly a merchant gets rid of those minimums or fees when you complain to the CC company about their deceptive practices. When they do this sort of backhanded crap, and get reported enough times, the merchant and/or CC company will pull their merchant account, and/or fine them for violating the terms of the agreement they have in place. Works for MC, VISA, DISC. Not sure about AMEX, et al. Just an FYI.

  19. So, what is the alternative? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 3, Interesting

    Can someone suggest a good alternative to PayPal? eBay seems to have banned everything else that accepts credit cards and many buyers only want to pay by cc, even when you explicitly state that you don't take them. Basically it's impossible to sell anything on fleaBay without a PayPal account I think.

    Maybe an alternative to eBay is needed. Amazon is okay for books and music, but what about other stuff? eBay actually seems like quite a good way to sell some stuff, if it just wasn't for PayPal.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  20. Extortionate fee system by hack++slash · · Score: 2, Informative

    Whilst I've been using PayPal for about 8 years now and find it's very useful for paying seller, one fact irks me somewhat, with a premier account they skim money off ALL transactions you receive even if the sender is using funds held in their PayPal account.

    So basically they can charge a lot of money just to make one person's account balance go down and another go up - that's never happened when I've done a bank transfer within the UK.

    Daylight fucking robbery.

    --
    To do something right, you often have to roll up your sleeves and get busy.