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How To Teach a Healthy Dose of Skepticism?

c0d3h4x0r writes "It's no accident that 'whatcouldpossiblygowrong' is one of the most common tags applied by this community to stories about proposed ideas or laws. The ability to spot and predict faults is a big part of what makes a great engineer. It starts with having a healthy skepticism about the world, which leads to actual critical thinking. Many books and courses teach critical thinking skills, but what is the best way to encourage and teach someone to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism? Is it even a teachable skill, or is it just an innate part of the geek personality?"

138 of 880 comments (clear)

  1. Oh, goody... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

    I posted in this thread before it dissolved into a religious flamewar and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

    1. Re:Oh, goody... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      No, you posted in this thread before it dissolved into a religious flamewar, and all you got was modded "Offtopic" which is what you deserved!

  2. Fail a lot? by NIckGorton · · Score: 5, Interesting

    The best way is personal experience. Have a strongly held belief effectively challenged and have an epic fail. Then don't do what most of humanity does and use cognitive dissonance defenses to justify why you are still incredibly smart despite the fact you were in this regard a complete tool.

    Generalize from your own experience and realize we are all flaming idiots but by using tools such as logic and the scientific method we can start to approach a modicum of cleverness. Then from that point on trust only 10% of what you hear and 50% of what you see, break a bunch of stuff while learning how not to break stuff as badly, and apply your skills to future problems.

    Oh, and I would recommend reading 'Why People Believe Weird Things' by Michael Shermer. He describes this in great detail and even describes one of his own epic failures (he was abducted by aliens - kinda hard to own up to for a skeptic.)

    1. Re:Fail a lot? by mimada · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Reminds me of a quote: Judgment comes from experience. Experience comes from poor judgment.

    2. Re:Fail a lot? by SputnikPanic · · Score: 4, Informative

      Oh, and I would recommend reading 'Why People Believe Weird Things' by Michael Shermer. The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan is another good one.

    3. Re:Fail a lot? by cromar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      True dat. The sooner you can look beyond your own "ego" and start looking at the world objectively, the better. Another couple of books I would recommend are the Tao Te Ching and of course Socrates. Also, a well rounded course of study in Maths, Theology/Mythology/Folklore (you don't have to believe but it puts the world's people in a more realistic perspective), Literature, The Arts, and of course Science and especially Computing, etc...

    4. Re:Fail a lot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Fail alot and learn from your failures."

      Learn from that one! :)

    5. Re:Fail a lot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Surround yourself with failures and observe their demise.

      You could pull a few strings here and there as well.
      "Hey I saw a meatball in that light socket, take this fork and get it.
      I'll even give you half of it!"

    6. Re:Fail a lot? by eldavojohn · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Oh, and I would recommend reading 'Why People Believe Weird Things' by Michael Shermer. The Demon-Haunted World by Carl Sagan is another good one. Agreed. If I remember correctly, the opening of that particular book starts out with a dragon in my garage. You might be incredulous at first, but I assure you, the dragon is there. You open the door to my garage but you don't see anything. Of course not, I say ... because the dragon is invisible.

      And so it goes to smell, touch, heat from breath, all these things are what you rely on to detect the dragon. But I have convenient mechanisms implemented to thwart your attempts at detecting my dragon.

      This leads to a great quote:

      "Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?" And from that point on, I kind of recognized similar mechanisms in most religions ... designed to require no scientific or even empirical evidence of a higher being.

      But I digress on religion, it applies to so much more than that. This book did instill an advanced "see it to believe it" mentality on me and I thank Sagan for that. What's even more shocking is how much I remember of the book since I read it when it came out around 1998.

      Really though, I'd just teach people to question everything internally. Be smart about it and seek more information or data if there's any doubt. And really question those who get upset when you question them.
      --
      My work here is dung.
    7. Re:Fail a lot? by gnick · · Score: 3, Funny

      ...a well rounded course of study in Maths, Theology/Mythology/Folklore..., Literature, The Arts, and of course Science and especially Computing, etc... OK, I've mastered math and theology/mythology/folklore. I've observed, appreciated, and internalized all available literature and art. And I've mastered the sciences, computing, etc.

      What do you recommend that I study now?
      --
      He's getting rather old, but he's a good mouse.
    8. Re:Fail a lot? by cptnapalm · · Score: 4, Funny

      Your navel?

    9. Re:Fail a lot? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 2, Funny
      I prefer this quote:

      (It was, of course, as a result of the Great Ventilation and Telephone Riots of SrDt 3454, that all mechanical or electrical or quantum-mechanical or hydraulic or even wind, steam or piston-driven devices, are now required to have a certain legend emblazoned on them somewhere. It doesn't matter how small the object is, the designers of the object have got to find a way of squeezing the legend in somewhere, because it is their attention which is being drawn to it rather than necessarily that of the user's.

      The legend is this:

      "The major difference between a thing that might go wrong and a thing that cannot possibly go wrong is that when a thing that cannot possibly go wrong goes wrong it usually turns out to be impossible to get at or repair.") Alas, that legend is too long to fit in a Slashdot tag.
      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    10. Re:Fail a lot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?"

      Which is why I don't believe that invisible monsters could possibly make fresh tomatoes bad for you.

      Um... hang on a second, I need to go visit the little boys room.
    11. Re:Fail a lot? by HTH+NE1 · · Score: 5, Funny

      Everyone knows invisible dragons aren't really invisible. They only look that way.

      --
      Oh, say does that Star-Spangled Banner entwine / The myrtle of Venus with Bacchus's vine?
    12. Re:Fail a lot? by Red+Flayer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The best way is personal experience.
      And a person in an authority role (as a teacher, parent, coach, etc) canesily help build this experience.

      You can do your part by lying to them, by making promises and not delivering, by deliberately teaching them falshoods and then laughing when they fail their exams... the possibilities are endless.

      Seriously, though. What worked in my family 30 years ago probably works today. Tell the kids increasingly ridiculous bullshit until they figure out it's bullshit. Pretty soon they'll doubt any "fact" you tell them. Pretty soon, they apply it to any "fact" anyone tells them.
      --
      "Trolls they were, but filled with the evil will of their master: a fell race..." -- J.R.R. Tolkien on Olog-hai
    13. Re:Fail a lot? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      If at first you don't succeed... Skydiving isn't for you.

    14. Re:Fail a lot? by timholman · · Score: 5, Interesting

      The best way is personal experience. Have a strongly held belief effectively challenged and have an epic fail. Then don't do what most of humanity does and use cognitive dissonance defenses to justify why you are still incredibly smart despite the fact you were in this regard a complete tool.

      James Randi has a very easy and entertaining experiment that he often uses on high school and college classes. He asks every student to provide their name and birthday, and in turn promises a personalized horoscope for each of them. A couple of days later, he shows up and passes out the horoscopes. Each student reads his/her horoscope, then Randi asks for a show of hands for the people who feel that their horoscope is very accurate. Typically an overwhelming majority of students raise their hands. Then Randi asks each student to switch horoscopes with the person next to them, and of course the horoscopes are all identical.

      The first step to skepticism is to show people how easily they can fool themselves by wishful thinking. Randi's experiment (or something similar) would be a great lesson for students.
    15. Re:Fail a lot? by Reverend528 · · Score: 5, Interesting

      "Now, what's the difference between an invisible, incorporeal, floating dragon who spits heatless fire and no dragon at all?"

      I don't know. What's the difference between a universe full of other races that we've never heard from and a universe inhabited solely by us.

      I'm a fan of Carl Sagan, but I do find it kind of amusing that he would easily reject one idea that there is no evidence for (God), but so willingly embrace another idea for which there is no evidence (intelligent extraterrestrial life).

    16. Re:Fail a lot? by JebusIsLord · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I also read that book back in high school, and it definitely put me on the path towards science (and later atheism).

      Another good recent read was "God Is Not Great" by Christopher Hitchens. He discusses briefly the idea that human credulity is a biological adaptation to help us benefit from the placebo effect. Credulous individuals are religious, superstitious and generally happier and healthier than us miserable skeptics.

      --
      Jeremy
    17. Re:Fail a lot? by themoodykid · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The fact that someone has put together instructions on how to fail tells us that people nowadays are more apt to think than to do. In general, I agree that thinking things through is good, but for trivial things, people should just act. What this has to do with skepticism, I don't know, but analysis paralysis just bugs me (I do it a lot) and is a big reason why big orgs can't get anything done.

    18. Re:Fail a lot? by pe1rxq · · Score: 2, Insightful

      One of the most difficult things for people to recognize is the difference between blind faith and trust.
      When a painter puts up a sign with 'wet paint' my experience tells me that I can probably trust it and choose not to test his claim.

      I am a skeptic, I don't have blind faith. (I probably have some hidden pieces of superstition left, but have been very thoroughly getting rid of them)
      But it is simply not practical to be skeptical about everything. At some point I need to be able to trust someone else....
      e.g. when going to a doctor I need to be able to trust his knowledge of the human body. Unfortunately we allow some idiots to call themselves 'doctor' while selling quackery like homeopathy.

      The hardest part is not just being a skeptic, but knowing where you can let your guard down and trust someone else's skepticism.

      --
      Secure messaging: http://quickmsg.vreeken.net/
    19. Re:Fail a lot? by cbelt3 · · Score: 5, Funny

      I prefer Heinlein's Law:
      "Stupidity is often punishable by death. Sentecse is carried out immediately. There is no appeal."

      That said- teach "Errors Course". Engineers of my generation heard a lot about errors, disasters, etc. caused by bad process, math, theory, materials. Who can forget the cheesy 8mm film of the Tacoma Narrows bridge failing ? Who can forget the Challenger exploding on takeoff, and the Columbia breaking up on re-entry ? And who isn't fascinated with the classic case of the "Unsinkable Titanic" sinking. On it's maiden voyage ?

      Learning from mistakes is, as others have noted, often the best teacher.

    20. Re:Fail a lot? by Smidge204 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      "Fools you are who say you like to learn from your mistakes. I prefer to learn from the mistakes of others, and avoid the cost of my own".

      -Otto von Bismarck

      =Smidge=

    21. Re:Fail a lot? by wcrowe · · Score: 3, Insightful

      This book did instill an advanced "see it to believe it" mentality on me and I thank Sagan for that.

      I haven't read the book, so I can't really comment on it, but one must be careful with such a "see it to believe it" mentality. It can force people to restrict their thinking to "inside the box". This is why I say skepticism is just a starting point. Though we may be skeptical, we must not shut down, but continue to be open-minded, and allow for thinking outside the box. Because sometimes there really is a dragon in the garage.

      --
      Proverbs 21:19
    22. Re:Fail a lot? by kanweg · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the absence of any proof of a god and with 100% certainty that intelligent life developed once, it is only guessing that among the billions of galaxies it could have happened at least one more time. If I have to set a bet, I know where I'd put my money.

      Bert

    23. Re:Fail a lot? by apathy+maybe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      He doesn't accept that there is intelligent extraterrestrial life, he just suggests that it is perfectly plausible.

      All things considered, we don't have any evidence for the Christian or Jewish or Muslim god, or the Hindu/Buddhist gods, or any supernatural events. Well, I should say, the only "evidence" we have is testimony, which is often thousands of years old, and distorted etc. (Hume wrote about whether one should believe in "miracles" or not. No you shouldn't, because it is much more likely that you were mistaken, if you "saw" it yourself, or mislead (intentionally or otherwise), otherwise.)

      However, it is within our understanding of the way the universe works that there might be life outside of this solar system. Yes, we don't have any evidence for it, and that is why Sagan (and myself) don't claim that it exists. Merely that it might exist, and that we hold our judgment until further, and sufficient, evidence is presented.

      Do you have any other examples of Sagan (or any other skeptic of a similar bent) believing in irrationalities or without evidence?

      --
      I wank in the shower.
    24. Re:Fail a lot? by smooth+wombat · · Score: 5, Insightful
      I'm a fan of Carl Sagan, but I do find it kind of amusing that he would easily reject one idea that there is no evidence for (God), but so willingly embrace another idea for which there is no evidence (intelligent extraterrestrial life).


      Why amusing? It's a perfectly logical, rational conclusion based on the available evidence. No one has ever provided any evidence or test to show that there is a supreme, omnipotent being watching over us. Nor has anyone ever provided any evidence to indicate how such a being could come into existence in the first place. The best anyone has ever offered is simply, "God/Vishnu/Chutulu/whatever has always existed." That is no evidence.

      On the other hand, we have absolute, concrete evidence for what it takes for life to form. Granted, we have only a single data point, our planet, but using that as our reference, we can now search the cosmos for other bodies which exhibit similar conditions and explore them for signs of life, intelligent or otherwise. We can of course also listen for signs of intelligent life through radio waves or other sources. In other words, we are looking for evidence of other beings because we know that at least in one case, our planet, such beings exist and if intelligent life exists on this ball of rock, then there is a probability that life exists somewhere else under similar conditions.

      This is where skepticism comes into play. If someone says "X product can do Y job better, and more cheaply, than a name brand product", they have to prove it. Until such time, people should remain skeptical of unsubstantiated claims. Why do you think the folks who produce supplements are so adamant about not having to prove the claims they make? They know that if subjected to scientific testing, their products would be shown not to do what the manufacturer claims.

      The same thing occurs with Sagan's (and others) stances on religion and why ID is not a scientific principle. Those concepts do not stand up to scientific rigor. If you want to believe that there is a God (or Gods), then by all means, go ahead. But don't equate a belief in something for which there is zero evidence to support said belief with an idea for which evidence already exists.

      --
      We will bankrupt ourselves in the vain search for absolute security. -- Dwight D. Eisenhower
    25. Re:Fail a lot? by wcrowe · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I am speaking metaphorically, of course. What I have in mind is someone like Newton, who could perceive of gravity, and had to basically invent the mathematics (calculus) to prove it. Gravity was Newton's "dragon in the garage". Something he could "see", but others couldn't.

      --
      Proverbs 21:19
    26. Re:Fail a lot? by Bobo_The_Boinger · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I liked my introduction to the scientific method in middle school. My teacher spent the first week teaching us the biological concepts behind spontaneous generation. He had us write down notes about how worms were generated in the earth when rain fell, how maggots were generated from meat and heat/light, etc. We kept saying "What, that can't be true?" but he kept insisting and none of us was strong willed enough to stand up and truly question his authority.

      At the beginning of the next week when we came in he essentially said, "Tear out all of last weeks notes, and throw them away. If you all want to learn science you can never blindly accept what anyone tells you. Think it through and don't be stupid about it. Test for yourself if you don't believe someone!"

      --
      --David
    27. Re:Fail a lot? by TakeyMcTaker · · Score: 3, Informative

      While we're listing books, I have to add 'The God Delusion' by Richard Dawkins.

      I have to admit, I was leaning already, but this book is really the best call to arms to Agnostics, to become full-fledged Atheists, that I have read so far. He does things like establish why all God theories are either statistically improbable in the absurd, or just useless circular logic. He establishes why other far-fetched theories, like intelligent life in other parts of the Universe, are statistically probable, especially in comparison. Even if you don't like the way he writes, it's full of references to other great books, writers, and ideas -- he liberally references other great writers like Douglas Adams and Carl Sagan. In general, Richard Dawkins offers a unique and interesting view of history, and the bibliography makes a great reading list, no matter which way your religious leanings sway.

    28. Re:Fail a lot? by utnapistim · · Score: 2, Informative

      "Here at the Enrichment Center we believe that if at first you don't succeed, you fail."

      --
      Tie two birds together: although they have four wings, they cannot fly. (The blind man)
    29. Re:Fail a lot? by Genom · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I've told the religious folks I know that I have a simple, easily-fulfilled condition to consider joining their religion. "God" (or whatever), needs to come down and have a cup of coffee with me. I'll even pay, if said higher-being is a cheapskate. He/She/It performs some action that proves it is what He/She/It says it is, and then we have a conversation about why my *personal* worship is required. Basically a friendly job interview for the position of "supreme being so far as I'm concerned".

      I figure for an omnipotent, omnipresent being, this is a fairly trivial task.

      So far, none have taken me up on the offer, so I remain religion-neutral ;P

    30. Re:Fail a lot? by ConceptJunkie · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The problem is that stupidity isn't punishable by death any more. It's most often punishable by winning a nifty lawsuit and more stupid and costly government regulations to prevent evolutionary mistakes from killing themselves out of stupidity.

      Basically, in the long run, stupidity is causing the death of our civilization.

      --
      You are in a maze of twisty little passages, all alike.
  3. It just comes naturally with experience by oldspewey · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Skepticism is just an offshoot of experience and the wisdom that (hopefully) comes with experience. After witnessing and experiencing a few spectacular failures in this life, the natural and healthy outcome is to develop a skeptical streak.

    --
    If libertarians are so opposed to effective government, why don't they all move to Somalia?
    1. Re:It just comes naturally with experience by fictionpuss · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Ah, but what level of skepticism is healthy? Too little and you get the titanic, too much and you never reach the moon.

    2. Re:It just comes naturally with experience by geekoid · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "Skepticism is just an offshoot of experience and the wisdom "
      No it's not, it's something you ahve to train your mind for. You need techniques that you apply to everything, including..or even especially, your acred cows.

      --
      The Kruger Dunning explains most post on /. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect
    3. Re:It just comes naturally with experience by drinkypoo · · Score: 3, Funny

      You need techniques that you apply to everything, including..or even especially, your acred cows.

      I don't know if I necessarily agree with this...

      P.S. What about my hectared cows?

      --
      "You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
  4. Step 1 by seanellis · · Score: 4, Informative

    Subscribe to the "The Skeptic's Guide to the Universe" podcast.

    1. Re:Step 1 by Otter · · Score: 3, Insightful

      In my experience, being a capital-S "Skeptic" about one's pet dislikes (people have trotted out religion and global warming already, but not a single complaint about Microsoft yet!?!) isn't nearly as well-correlated with objectivity and critical thinking about anything else as the "Skeptics" would like to think.

  5. What you do is... by mujadaddy · · Score: 4, Funny

    ...invite your pupil over to kick your football...

    ...then, at the last possible second, pull it away!

    That'll teach em not to be so trusting!

    --
    Populus vult decipi, ergo decipiatur...
    "Force shits upon Reason's back." - Poor Richard's Almanac
  6. Education from a young age by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I didn't let my kid watch television until he was old enough to talk to.

    Then I sat down with him, told him the rules for watching it, and emphasized one point:

    "This is fun to watch, but remember - people lie."

    At every level of life, when he was exposed to school, encountered any institution, or group, I would ask him, "How do you know this is true?"

    I introduced him to the concepts of logic while playing games, and we made our own puzzles based on these concepts.

    He is grown now, and has one awesome built-in BS detector.

    1. Re:Education from a young age by DylanW · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is true. I'm highly skeptical because my parents are very skeptical. Unfortunately, I think their mindset came from experience rather than training.

      Of course this makes me a very negative and paranoid person. Sometimes it's hard to evaluate something correctly if you start looking at all the ways it can go wrong. And most people don't like it when your response to everything is "yeah, but *actually*..."--I've gotten the reputation for being a big kill-joy.

      Which is probably one of the reasons no one wants to teach kids a healthy dose of skepticism--it's sort of depressing.

    2. Re:Education from a young age by Stanistani · · Score: 4, Insightful
      Also, different methods work on different kids, in different cultures. YMMV.

      In general, teach your children to think. Give them tools they can use later in life.
      • A workable ethics system
      • Good manners
      • A good grasp of your language
      • Familiarity with a second language
      • At least basic math
      • The scientific method
      • Principles of logic
      • Healthy skepticism
      • Reward curiousity
      • Reward Kindness
      • Reward Perseverance
      • Set a good example
    3. Re:Education from a young age by Colonel+Korn · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Of course this makes me a very negative and paranoid person. Sometimes it's hard to evaluate something correctly if you start looking at all the ways it can go wrong. And most people don't like it when your response to everything is "yeah, but *actually*..."--I've gotten the reputation for being a big kill-joy.

      Which is probably one of the reasons no one wants to teach kids a healthy dose of skepticism--it's sort of depressing. This is a problem a lot of "skeptics" have, and I believe it comes from having good analytical skills but not having the judgment to know that they are a tool to be applied shared when appropriate, and not all the time. You have to remember that not everything is an objective matter - sometimes subjectivity is called for, and in those cases, you need to be able to express yourself in those terms, as well. In social situations, it's rarely appropriate to dump negativity on something a peer presents positively.

      I'm certainly a skeptic in the sense described in this story, but skepticism is a tool, not my identity.
      --
      "I zero-index my hamsters" - Willtor (147206)
    4. Re:Education from a young age by khallow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You say it boils down to having a distrust of "authority" and then proceed to disprove yourself over the rest of the post. I think the original poster was spot on. It's not a matter of distrusting authority, it's a matter of how to think. Figuring out when and how much to trust an authority is only a small part of the issue. There's also the matter of solving problems that you haven't faced before and other challenges.

  7. I learned by picking parents... by hackstraw · · Score: 2, Funny

    that would scream and yell at me until I blacked out if I ever made a mistake.

    As a systems engineer today, I rarely if ever make mistakes.

    So, yes, this is possible to teach these things, in "healthy dose" quanities, I have no experience with them.

  8. It's teachable. Actually, it's even easy. by Opportunist · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But it won't be taught.

    The very simple reason is that people who think are harder to govern than people who don't. What is wanted is people who can do their job, preferably well, but don't have any interests outside of it.

    The reason why we get laws proposed that have glaring flaws is that those flaws are often what is wanted. The great majority of people does either not care or swallows the snakeoil and the promise of safety, simply because they were never taught to contemplate "what could possibly go wrong".

    It's pretty much how Homer put it. We elect politicians so we don't have to think. Unfortunately, he's not alone with this point of view.

    --
    We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    1. Re:It's teachable. Actually, it's even easy. by Opportunist · · Score: 3, Funny

      Ok, this is /., I forgot. In any other board, this question wouldn't have been asked.

      I mean the one that's more popular (or at least, widely known), because so many people can relate to him.

      --
      We used to have a Bill of Rights. Now, with the rights gone, all we have left is the bill.
    2. Re:It's teachable. Actually, it's even easy. by mr_mischief · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Unfortunately, while electing politicians so we don't have to think, we often elect them in our own image.

      It's terribly difficult to be a leader when you're following the opinion polls for all your decisions, for one thing. That's a big circle of people wanting the politician to do the thinking, and the politician wanting the people to do the thinking. Eventually we need to figure out that no thinking gets done that way, and only mimicry.

      Clinton was renowned for following polls while in office. G.W. Bush likely also follows polls, but from his narrowly selected portion of the total US constituency. I'm not sure we've had someone in the office of President who actually did any leading since Eisenhower. Perhaps Kennedy or Reagan lead, but most modern holders of the office have been followers elected to lead.

    3. Re:It's teachable. Actually, it's even easy. by Abcd1234 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The very simple reason is that people who think are harder to govern than people who don't.

      And ironically, this tin-foil-hat-style thinking is precisely the hallmark of someone who doesn't actually think skeptically...

  9. Color me.. by prakslash · · Score: 2, Funny

    I skeptical that such a skill can be taught.

  10. Probably teachable... by Krinsath · · Score: 4, Interesting

    But you have to find someone who wants to live in a rational, logical world first. That's a lot harder than you might think, and probably explains why computer-saavy people tend to be more skeptical because logic is such a dominating facet of computing. "Normal" people, on the other hand, like their fairy tales and myths and "magic remedies" and so forth and tend to not appreciate it when you point out that what they're doing either doesn't work or has some other, more mundane, explanation...especially if that mundane explanation means they can't charge money for tours or Jesus-shaped bread.

    Back to the question though, I find a healthy dose of skepticism from reading the various newsletters out there to be quite useful.

    The James Randi Education Foundation (JREF) at http://www.randi.org/ has a weekly column they put out that is usually a good read discussing various "woo-woo" ideas and why, rationally, they fail as well as links to other such things. It's a decent enough starting point I suppose.

  11. Teaching skepticism? by Anne_Nonymous · · Score: 3, Funny

    >> what is the best way to encourage and teach someone to maintain a healthy dose of skepticism?

    Teaching skepticism? I doubt it.

  12. The Skeptical Environmentalist by mongoose(!no) · · Score: 5, Interesting

    Interesting book by Bjorn Lomborg, a Danish statistics professor. It has a lot of ancidotes about environmental policies and looking at the real impact of them. I don't agree with everything the author has to say, but it I thought it did a good job teaching critical thinking and encouraging people not to accept statistics at face value.

    1. Re:The Skeptical Environmentalist by Ilyon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Bjorn Lomborg demonstrates that you can take skepticism too far. Skepticism calls for the questioning of a hypothesis based on doubts about evidence supporting that hypothesis and on faith in counter-evidence. If the hypothesis is supported by little data, or if the counter-evidence is as great as the supporting data, it is reasonable to doubt the hypothesis.

      In the case of climate change, previous finding of anthropogenic global warming are continually reinforced by new findings while alternative explanations are steadily debunked by new findings.

      If you listen to Lomborg's interviews, you'll notice him dodging direct questions about whether the environment is getting worse, and redirecting the discussion to hypotheses that the environmental changes can have a positive effect and that humans can adapt to take advantage of these changes. He puts a real positive spin on the possibility of change.

      The /. community has a technical term for this: FUD! (or perhaps, reverse-FUD - putting a positive spin on a negative thing).

  13. Keyword: *Healthy* by CheeseTroll · · Score: 2, Insightful

    A better question might be: How can one learn a sense of 'healthy' skepticism without going overboard and becoming outright cynical?

    It's the difference between "let's be careful before we dive into something new & shiny" and "Get off my lawn!"

    --
    A post a day keeps productivity at bay.
  14. Maybe it's just not human nature? by AmiMoJo · · Score: 5, Interesting

    In the UK we have this newspaper called the Daily Mail. Some people call it the Daily Hate Mail, because that's basically how it sells - it makes the reader angry. Every story is blatantly biased, designed to make your blood boil. There is always someone doing something stupid, someone to blame for every problem in the world. It's really obvious that it's actually a load of rubbish, but people seem to just have a natural tendency to like that sort of thing.

    Herman Gering admitted that the Nazi party used basically the same trick. The argument that you are being attacked, that other people are the cause of all your problems seems to be very compelling, perhaps because evolution makes the world competitive by nature and because if it's someone else's fault, it's not yours.

    A lot of men in particular seem to have a hard time admitting they are wrong too. Even if you point out how stupid their beliefs are, people have a hard time accepting it. So, when ideas come along that are even quite blatantly stupid people tend to latch on to them if they support their existing point of view.

    I think the only way to counter it is to teach philosophy and rational thinking from an early age. People seem to literally not know how to think, how to form a logical argument or dissect one in a rational manner.

    --
    const int one = 65536; (Silvermoon, Texture.cs)
    SJW, n: "Someone I don't like, and by the way I'm a fuckwit" - AC
  15. Build something by Thelasko · · Score: 2, Interesting

    When I was in high school, we had two upper level physics class, AP Physics, and Electro-physics. I took the electro-physics class because we got to build things instead of study for a stupid test all year.

    I learned quite a bit about electronics, but I think the most important thing I learned was failure mode analysis. The class had so many projects that required you to build things (physical things, not just circuits) that I, and everyone else in the class became very good at it. The projects started very simple and progressed in difficulty throughout the year.

    At the end of the year, the Electro-physics class challenged the AP physics class to a sort of competitive science project, building a catapult. That's where our experience in construction paid off. Our project was heavily researched, carefully designed, and we even left a day to debug it (which proved extremely helpful). In the end, we won the competition.

    --
    One of our competitors trademarked the term "hypothesis". From now on, we will call them "boneheaded ideas".
  16. Teaching skepticism... by FataL187 · · Score: 2, Funny

    My parents always tried to teach me to be skeptical, however I was never really sure that I believed anything they were saying.

  17. It's a natural biproduct of critical thinking by Torinaga-Sama · · Score: 5, Interesting

    True skeptics aren't taught, they are usually forged through their own mistakes and misjudgments. In education it would behoove us to encourage mistake making as a learning tool instead of the current academic paradigm of grades and rankings.

    Of course I am a graduate of The Evergreen State College which has no grade system so apply salt liberally.

    --
    (/local/home/curiosity)-#who -u|grep thecat|cut -c 44-49|xargs kill -9
  18. Read books on it by AdamHaun · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I don't think geeks are much more skeptical than other groups of people. Everyone thinks groupthink and bias don't apply to them, but the reality is a lot more subtle. A good book I've found for learning about innate human biases is How We Know What Isn't So by Thomas Gilovich. It's filled with examples of how pattern detection and reasoning are skewed by the same heuristics that make our brains so effective in the first place.

    --
    Visit the
    1. Re:Read books on it by unlametheweak · · Score: 2, Interesting

      On the other hand, anyone committed to an ideology, whatever the flavour, is usually uneducable. I will elaborate on my previous comment. Everybody has an ideology, whether it is a formalized ideology or one developed through osmosis. In this respect I would say you are correct; anybody who (is not neurotic) believes in themselves (I'm talking ideology here and not self-esteem issues like beauty self beliefs, intelligence self beliefs, etc) and has self-confidence and pride (let's say a statistically normal individual) is generally un-educe-able and un-educate-able when it comes to skepticism.
  19. Carl Sagan by GreggBz · · Score: 4, Informative

    The best book I ever read on this subject is here.

    This book gives you a deep fundamental understanding of science and the scientific method. The chapters focus on debunking a variety of outrageous pseudoscience. Ideas from UFOs to conspiracy theories to the Lost City of Atlantis are swept away by convincing arguments. Once you read enough of this, the higher meaning presents itself. Don't let the nonsense comfort you falsely. Be skeptical and trust in science. It is the most reliable methodology for getting to the truth.

    Few books really changed my outlook in life. This is one of them. Read the reviews at Amazon. You will see I'm not alone. For me, in this crazy world, science really has become a candle in the dark.

  20. Science classes by backwardMechanic · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I've often thought about running a science class in schools with deliberately miscalibrated rulers. Or maybe an undergrad lab, where a selection of the instruments are 'off'. See how long it takes the kids to figure it out. (My colleague just lost a weeks work because he didn't bother to test his fancy fibre-optic temperature probes by sticking them in a glass of water with a thermometer. He'll remember that lesson!)

    1. Re:Science classes by Cutie+Pi · · Score: 3, Interesting

      I TA'ed a hands-on statistics class with a lab component in which the prof did exactly that. In this case, it wasn't rulers, but digital thermocouples tied into a spiffy Labview temperature monitoring interface. The students were asked to report data from two thermocouples: one gave nice, consistent results, and the other was rigged to produce highly unreliable data. Many of them had a hard time reconciling what they saw (bad data!! OMG!) with their pre-conceived notions (digital controllers are always accurate). In the end it made them better engineers though.

  21. Pseudo-skeptics vs. skeptics by Cutie+Pi · · Score: 5, Insightful

    In my experience there are two forms of skepticism-- true skepticism, which is healthy and sadly lacking in most people, and what I call "pseudo-skepticism" which is in great abundance. Pseudo-skepticism goes right along with pseudo-science and as is often used as a foundation for a belief system. Example: the 9/11 conspiracy theorists are rabidly skeptical of anything presented by the government or mainstream media (which is good, to a degree), but are completely accepting of the most crackpot theories imaginable. (The more crazy the idea, the better IMHO). They do this while covering their ears and singing LA-LA-LA anytime any one tries to debunk their theories with science or counter-evidence. Both sides of the global warming debate contain pseudo-skeptics as well, and unfortunately, they are the ones making the most noise.

    A true skeptic is skeptical of both points of view, and does the critical thinking necessary to form his/her own opinion. This is harder to teach since it comes from experience, which is harder to come by in this sheltered world of ours.

    1. Re:Pseudo-skeptics vs. skeptics by Workaphobia · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I agree there's a lot of pseudo skepticism as you call it, but I'm pessimistic about the individual's ability to perform critical reasoning to arrive at a "correct" answer even if he or she is a true skeptic and is not biased towards either side. Just because I don't believe what I'm told without justification doesn't mean I know how to divine truth out of conflicting arguments (short of pointing out fallacies).

      --
      Evidently, the key to understanding recursion is to begin by understanding recursion. The rest is easy.
  22. Re:I'm pretty sceptical... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

    It's somewhat ironic that the question is asked on a web site where there's an unhealthy groupthink appearing on a regular basis.
    I agree. The groupthink around here is absolutely outrageous!
  23. It's not about teaching it. by ScentCone · · Score: 5, Insightful

    It's not about teaching skepticism and critical thinking. It's about not squashing those natural talents by teaching kids about the empty power of magical thinking, house-of-cards hollow self esteem disconnected from actual achievement, and the endless wallowing in platitudes about "having faith" and "just believe, and you can do anything!" etc. The cultural institutions that rely on such stuff are always at odds with critical thinking. Kids are natural scientists - they understand the need to test causality, and are always curious. It's a shame that so many people completely misunderstand the nature of ethics, and seem to think that mysticism (the enemy of critical thinking) is required in order to derive a sound moral framework.

    Parents are too quick to pass the baton to religion, new-age hokum, or just feel-good Oprah-ness in order to make their kids feel good about the world. They just want things to be easy, and don't have the personal fortitude to usher their kids through the slightly challenging phase of learning to apply their natural reasoning skills to topics that are somewhat less immediately tangible than what happens when you touch something hot. Issues like "what happens when one state taxes high tech entrepeneurs more than the the state next door" or "what happens when you let a gene pool get too shallow" or "what happens when you use GOTO statements in your code because it lets you get to lunch earlier that day" aren't any different than "what happens when you dump a hot oatmeal bowl in your lap," but require a little more discipline to digest.

    The platform for rational thought is already there. You have to kill it, though, or slowly suffocate it throughout child development, in order to make it something that it feels like work to wake it back up later. Just keep it alive in the first place, and we wouldn't have such a mixed bag cultural messes to deal with. We wouldn't be seeing the strange, sad dance of a politician twisting and turning while explaining why he's suddenly between churches while running for president... since he wouldn't have been glued to a crazy church in the first place. Think how much less noise and distraction we'd have without all that nonsense.

    --
    Don't disappoint your bird dog. Go to the range.
  24. I Seek Wisdom and Its Bastard Son, Truth by GogglesPisano · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One useful byproduct of a long series of failures is that it produces a well-developed sense of cynicism and sarcasm, which are essential skills required for posting snarky (yet insightful - insightful, dammit!) remarks on Slashdot.

  25. How could you get a job? by pileated · · Score: 4, Insightful

    In my experience skepticism is the one quality that most agitates employers, sad to say.

  26. Here be Dragons - video on critical thinking by somegeekynick · · Score: 5, Informative

    This was posted at the BadAstronomy.com blog a couple of days ago.

    [Sceptic] Brian Dunning has put together a video on how to think critically. Itâ(TM)s called Here Be Dragons, and itâ(TM)s a pretty good primer into how to think. Itâ(TM)s about 40 minutes long, and free to use (with some caveats; see the site). I think this would do well in a classroom. Any teachers out there? I know itâ(TM)s too late for most school sessions, but you can download the movie (and a high-res version too) and keep it handy for the next year. http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2008/06/11/here-be-dragons/

  27. Re:Is this really... by mr_mischief · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I think there's even a way to delineate along that line. There are skeptics, cynics, and pessimists. The lines between skeptics and cynics are a bit fuzzy, and between cynics and pessimists as well. Yet it's easy to tell the difference between a skeptic and a pessimist.

    In brief, people can think "This may not work", "This probably won't work", or "This will never work" before they have any evidence.

    The skeptic will go with the evidence more readily. The cynic will be biased towards the negative, but can be convinced by the evidence. The pessimist will be surprised at success even when success should have been expected.

    Of course, there are optimists to the other side of skeptics on that list. They'll favor success until the evidence proves them wrong, but will favor success the next time.

    Then there are "true believers" on either end who either will be convinced of failure or convinced of success even after the outcome is clear to everyone else. They'll twist the evidence and the logic to their conclusion before they allow their conclusion to change with the evidence and logic.

  28. Skepticism is just a starting point by wcrowe · · Score: 4, Insightful

    One thing that needs to be taught is that being skeptical is not the same as an argument. It's fine to have a hunch that an idea is bad, wrong, or won't work, but it's only a starting point. Too many people believe that their work ends at being skeptical. Such "skeptics" are among the most closed minded people in society.

    --
    Proverbs 21:19
  29. As a person in education... by eepok · · Score: 5, Insightful

    My advice is to lie. A lot. Yes, I'm serious.

    The only way to teach others to be skeptical is to give reasons for skepticism. With middle school students (experience teaching algebra/pre-algebra), I would start off easy:

    Me: What's the square root of ?
    Students: *Silence*
    Me: Thought so. The answer is "flower".
    Students: *laughter*
    Me: What? Something wrong?
    Student: Ya, "flower" is not a number.
    Me: And?
    Student: A square root needs to be a number.
    Me: Does it?
    Student: YA! Duhhh!
    Me: Prove it. Show me how multiplying two flowers doesn't make .

    It's humorous, but I threw silly things like that in all the time. Answers the students knew couldn't be right. That gave them the courage to call me out when they thought I was wrong. I then required more of them:

    Me: is the correct answer to Students: How do you know?
    Me: I just know. I'm the teacher.
    Students: Ya, but you lie sometimes.
    Me: I do. So what do you do when you think I'm lying?
    Student: We show you why we think you're lying. Me: So show me.
    Student: *walks up to the board and does the math*

    In this situation, it doesn't matter whether or not the student is right in her/his distrust, but that s/he was willing to check my work.

    This is a tactic I use to teach and ingrain skepticism in every class I've ever taught.

  30. Teaching to question by Bayoudegradeable · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I am no perfect teacher, nor am I claiming to be an expert. I do teach middle schoolers (ages 10-13 at my school) and I try to show and teach them on a daily basis to question the world around them. Why do things happen? What really is cause and effect? What are the other options? What happens if we do this? (A great question not just for science) As a social studies teacher I get the "Why are we in Iraq?" question all the time. It gets difficult at times not to jump on a soapbox, so instead, in my best Socratic questioning, I ask the kids to look at the situation. Is this good? Is this bad? How do we stop terrorism? If it's broke, how can we fix it? If we're wrong (hard to say with a straight face!)what can we learn so as not to do this again? How should we solve problems?

    While I will admit I try to encourage skepticism about things like warrantless wiretaps, Gitmo, PATRIOT ACT (from a Constitutional viewpoint, as yesterday shows us, these programs are open to more than one interpretation) I hope that getting the kids to look at our (US) government policies leads them to ask themselves if they agree, if they "work", if they disagree, what else we could do, etc. Devil's advocate is a useful tool for me and I hope by presenting different views and getting them to think it over for themselves they can form their own opinions. I realize at age 10 this is near impossible as abstract thinking skills just aren't there yet, but the 7th graders can handle quite a bit of these topics and I only hope they are walking away with the ability to question their world in a meaningful way.

    So to teach skepticism I actively look back at U.S. history (and world history) and get them to question why we did what we did. What were the outcomes? What were the motivations? Why did this happen? Could things have been different? If I wanted them to parrot God Bless America and engage in hero worship of their leaders, I guess I could teach things much differently, and in effect REMOVE all skepticism... but that's not teaching, that's conditioning. While I admit all teaching really is conditioning, I hope they condition themselves more than spit back my opinions, which I try to mask with varying degrees of success. Does it work? Guess we'll have to wait and see :)

    --
    Sig Registration Form 34c_766(a) submitted to Ministry of Signature Management. Approval pending.
  31. Use an issue which was big once but now forgotten. by Animats · · Score: 4, Interesting

    It's not hard. One classic approach for use in schools is to take some political issue which was a big deal in its day but is forgotten now. Obtain material written about the subject from many points of view, some sensible, some totally bogus, and with various degrees of stridency. Have students read through all the material and then write a brief evaluation of the various positions, listing the arguments, which ones they think are good, which ones seem bogus, and explain how they made that decision.

    The Free Silver issue is a good example. Once upon a time, the "free and unlimited coinage of silver" was a big issue. This was an early attempt at an "economic stimulus package" in a hard-money system. There's a famous speech by William Jennings Bryan ("I will not allow this nation to be crucified upon a cross of gold"), there were political cartoons, and there's plenty of material available. This is for high school level students.

    In earlier grades, teach skepticism of advertising. Teach how to read an ad. What are they trying to sell you? What are they telling you? What aren't they telling you? Use old TV commercials from the Internet Archive as teaching tools. Teacher handbook: "Ogilvy on Advertising".

  32. 2012 by crunch_ca · · Score: 2, Funny

    My kids (9 & 11) are going on about the world ending in 2012 (apparently, there are a bunch of hokey reasons, like the Mayan calendar ending).

    I figure they will get a good dose of skepticism by January 2013.

  33. Start with ads by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Start with analyzing the logical faults in television commercials and magazine ads, it is a nice safe arena for critique that is widely known. Then move on to political statements. I think that the majority of people need to be more critical about "emotional" arguments that defy or bend logic, usually by implication or ommission than faults of logically presented arguments.

  34. Don't Fail a lot - Learn from others by Simonetta · · Score: 3, Insightful

    It's a mantra in the electronics industry: 'If you want to succeed, increase your failure rate' - 'Just Do It' - 'It's not that you failed, it's what you learned from that failure'.

        I claim horseshit. Those mantras are only repeated by people who have managed to succeed after relatively small failures. Failure marks you in a puritan society. Failure marks you like a tattoo. Failure burns away all your trust in yourself and your energy.

        Learn or burn. Read or bleed. Let others fail and develop the skills to actually learn from their failures , not yours. Let them suffer.

      * Don't buy Yahoo! stock at $160 a share at the height of market bubble.

      * Don't buy a 3-room clapboard box house for $500000 at the height of a housing bubble.

      * When you boss tells you that 'a positive mental attitude and vitamin D will cure cancer, along with most other ailments' and then explains that this is why you aren't going to get health insurance, take the vitamin pill and look for another job.

      * When the old man at the VFW tells you 'it's your duty' to go to Korea, Vietnam, or Iraq, salute him, and find some other old men to hang with who don't still wake up with 30-year-old nightmares of senseless slaughter.

      * When someone says 'bet ya can't do...' on a skateboard, rub your tongue over your front teeth. Because that might be the last time that you feel them if you try it and don't quite pull it off.

      * When you get stopped by the police and they pull a marijuana cigarette out of your (or their) pocket and then suggest a little trip to the ATM, pay them off and move. You can't fight it in court without paying many, many thousands in legal fees. And you'll end up with a chickenshit pot conviction like 25 million other Americans who find themselves being the only people left subject to legal discrimination and bigotry.

      * Last but not least in this series, actually believe what the black people tell you about their experiences with the authorities and institutions that you have come to know and trust.

      Above all, Don't Fail!

  35. My wife says... by AttillaTheNun · · Score: 3, Interesting
    I'm too negative. I tend to agree. I consider it a valuable asset to my engineering discipline (routing out potential issues/failures, etc), but it tends to overflow into my general outlook on life, which is not such a good thing.

    It's a work-Life balance thing that we often need to spend more effort on than people in other disciplines.

  36. The difficult part is defining "healthy dose". by JeanPaulBob · · Score: 3, Insightful

    An overdose of skepticism is obnoxious.

    In its best form, skepticism is a matter of caution--wanting to have good grounds for what you accept as true, and maintaining your willingness to re-examine your previously-accepted beliefs.

    All too often, skepticism degenerates into simple invincible disbelief. (Or, in a softer form, active disinclination to believe.)

    That form of "hard" skepticism is obnoxious in its hypocrisy. You wind up with people whose beliefs (as in, their disbeliefs) are formed irrationally, without respect to reason or evidence--but who smugly view themselves as "rational skeptics".

  37. And when are we being too critical? by mollog · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I was a little amazed by the premise that there's not enough skepticism because I have learned to try to tune out the doubters and skeptics. Far too many people think they are clever if they can find a hypothetical problem with an idea. It's as if they think that being critical is the same as being discerning.

    I think it's the whole bikeshed thing; they won't approve until they change the color.

    But the point is well taken that people drink the Kool-Aid far too often without even considering what they're swallowing. Often, it's a reflection of their personal bias. They are willing to believe what their church/political party/government says because it conforms to their previously internalized beliefs. And belief usually translates to identity; people become what they believe. So when their leader tells them, for example, that global warming is not real, they believe what they're told despite evidence to the contrary. To not believe is a threat.

    But this goes well beyond the obvious examples of politics and religion. Scientists are the worst examples of group-think. They are taught something and repeat it and hold it to be fact even when confronted with good alternative explanations.

    As child, I could see that the continents of North and South America could plausibly fit up to Africa, yet my science teacher dismissed the idea that they were once joined. As we all now know, they were, in fact, once joined.

    Personally, I think that shaming and embarrassing mistaken beliefs should come back into fashion. When people feel embarrassed about silly beliefs, they will start to question what they're told.

    --
    Best regards.
    1. Re:And when are we being too critical? by luder · · Score: 5, Funny

      As child, I could see that the continents of North and South America could plausibly fit up to Africa, yet my science teacher dismissed the idea that they were once joined. As we all now know, they were, in fact, once joined. Wow, that must have been ages ago. How old are you?
    2. Re:And when are we being too critical? by smellsofbikes · · Score: 2, Insightful

      >Scientists are the worst examples of group-think.

      Science is in a weird position with respect to belief and questioning: it advances precisely because lots of people do research, that leads to wide-ranging theories, that other people use, so it is iterative and you necessarily rely on other people's work when you do yours. But at the same time, good science requires openness to change, that you be willing at any time to discard all the previous work. It requires filtering, so you can tell which pieces of evidence are wrong, and which pieces indicate that your framework of reasoning is wrong.
      So, a good scientist should be exactly the opposite of the sort of person that upsets you, but that's exactly what establishes that person as a good scientist. Most of the time, people aren't able to make these sorts of visionary leaps.
      I don't think it's scientists you're upset about -- I think it's human cognitive processes, and it's just more obvious in science because falsifiability is much more cut-and-dried than it is in many other fields.

      --
      Nostalgia's not what it used to be.
    3. Re:And when are we being too critical? by kestasjk · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Scientists are the worst examples of group-think. They are taught something and repeat it and hold it to be fact even when confronted with good alternative explanations.

      As child, I could see that the continents of North and South America could plausibly fit up to Africa, yet my science teacher dismissed the idea that they were once joined. As we all now know, they were, in fact, once joined.
      There's nothing wrong with dismissing an idea when there's not enough evidence to support it.

      A child saying "those look like they could fit together" is something any scientist would, and should, dismiss as an actual argument for the existence of tectonic plates.

      When it turned out there was a massive volcanic conveyor belt discovered at the bottom of the ocean in between the two continents, with magnetic stripes from different periods of north/south flips, and an ever growing record of similar fossils on different parts of the world with more accurate dating techniques, etc, etc, and now there's something worth considering.

      A scientist was right to doubt the existence of tectonic plates before based on your observation, and is right to believe in them now. The idea that people who change their mind should be shamed goes against the whole idea of science..

      Also I don't know how a "science teacher", who has to teach you a fixed curriculum which you get tested on, counts as a scientist. Is this childhood experience what you're judging all scientists by?
      --
      // MD_Update(&m,buf,j);
    4. Re:And when are we being too critical? by cellocgw · · Score: 2, Interesting

      As child, I could see that the continents of North and South America could plausibly fit up to Africa, yet my science teacher dismissed the idea that they were once joined. As we all now know, they were, in fact, once joined.
      Wow, that must have been ages ago. How old are you?

      Now, be nice. He's not the only over-50 /.-er here. I observed the same thing independently in 2nd or 3rd grade, before continental drift had made its way into grammar school curricula. But at least as best I recall, my teacher didn't dump on me for having an original thought.

      --
      https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
    5. Re:And when are we being too critical? by Afecks · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As child, I could see that the continents of North and South America could plausibly fit up to Africa, yet my science teacher dismissed the idea that they were once joined. As we all now know, they were, in fact, once joined. As a child, I could plainly see that the Sun moves through the sky and the Earth is motionless. Just because something seems obvious doesn't make it true. That's antithetical to scientific ideals. For you to criticize science for not jumping to conclusions from "common sense" is not an insult, it's a compliment. Science isn't about Truth with a capital T. It's about having fewer false beliefs. It seems you completely miss the point of scientific inquiry. If you want unshakable dogmas, stick to religion or some other absolutist ideology. In science, being wrong is a good thing. Also I would argue that even if you knew the continents were once joined you still didn't know until science proved it.
    6. Re:And when are we being too critical? by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And laughably, the only reason he knows his conclusion was right is because these so-called "group-think"ing scientists have amassed a lot of evidence for it and know it's the case.

      He's probably one of those religious or alternative medicine buggers, or worse, a crank.

    7. Re:And when are we being too critical? by McDutchie · · Score: 2, Informative

      There's nothing wrong with dismissing an idea when there's not enough evidence to support it.
      [...]
      A scientist was right to doubt the existence of tectonic plates before based on your observation, and is right to believe in them now.

      But his science teacher didn't just doubt their existence, he dismissed the idea out of hand because it didn't conform with prevailing dogma. That doesn't have anything to do with science. A hypothesis that can be neither proven or disproven by existing evidence should not be considered false; it should be considered an unknown, meriting further research.

    8. Re:And when are we being too critical? by Kazoo+the+Clown · · Score: 4, Interesting

      But this goes well beyond the obvious examples of politics and religion. Scientists are the worst examples of group-think. They are taught something and repeat it and hold it to be fact even when confronted with good alternative explanations.

      You obviously don't know too many scientists, this sounds like you've been accepting ID propaganda without skepticism. Scientific careers are made by finding problems with other scientists ideas, that is how you make your name in science. The idea that scientists march in lock-step and ignore new alternative explanations is completely laughable. Individual scientists may do that, but scientists as a group do not. Sour-grapes from the ID proponents because their claims are scientifically unconvincing do not make a worthy "alternative explanation". The design-as-alternative-to-evolution debate came and went over 100 years ago and nothing new has been added since then, get over it. Similarly, the debate over the germ theory of disease ended a long time ago too, but no one in their right mind would expect modern scientists to countenance crackpots who would argue it is invalid based on demonologic apologetics.

    9. Re:And when are we being too critical? by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 2, Informative

      As child, I could see that the continents of North and South America could plausibly fit up to Africa, yet my science teacher dismissed the idea that they were once joined. As we all now know, they were, in fact, once joined.

      Don't confuse scientists with science teachers. Science teachers generally stop their science training before getting beyond the repeating stuff from textbooks phase, so they have never been scientists in any real sense. Science training in schools is pretty limited in that regard, you will learn a lot of scientific facts, but you never do an experiement where you don't already know the answer.

      Also in my experience scientists are often criticised for not holding their opinions firmly enough.

    10. Re:And when are we being too critical? by Rui+del-Negro · · Score: 4, Insightful

      As a child, I could plainly see that the Sun moves through the sky and the Earth is motionless. As a child, I could plainly see that the road and trees were moving while my father's car was motionless. Sadly I allowed my teachers to convince me that I was wrong, or I may have figured out relativity during 2nd grade.

      The fact is that it's perfectly correct to use the Earth as your reference point, so saying that the Earth is still and the Sun moves around it is perfectly correct. Obviously, it's a lot more practical (when dealing with the solar system) to use Sol as the reference point, but "less practical" doesn't mean "wrong".

      What is wrong is to say that the other planets orbit the Earth (unless your definition of "orbit" covers some very weird relative trajectories). And that was the fundamental flaw in the geocentric theory (not the relationship between the Earth and Sun, which is compatible in both models). I'm always amazed by how many people (teachers included) fail to understand that.
    11. Re:And when are we being too critical? by ultranova · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Personally, I think that shaming and embarrassing mistaken beliefs should come back into fashion. When people feel embarrassed about silly beliefs, they will start to question what they're told.

      When people are mocked for their mistaken beliefs, they will make sure to follow the groupthink and not step out of line. Critical thinking requires you to be able to entertain wild and outlandish thoughts long enough to think about them, and perhaps even talk with someone else about them. If doing this will get you punished, you have created an incentive against questioning what you're being told.

      --

      Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.

  38. Since you brought up religion ... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I posted in this thread before it dissolved into a religious flamewar and all I got was this lousy T-shirt.

    Since you brought up religion ... I saw a quote in todays' paper asking about whether people believe in bad luck on Friday the 13th (Today is Friday the 13th, btw). One wman said "Oh no, I have God watching over me, I don't have to worry. I don't believe in superstitions."

    My irony meter pegged. Of course, critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god.

    1. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by mdf356 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not that anyone will listen, but...

      Of course, critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god.

      Well, I'm going to pretend you didn't just insult me, because that's not conducive to a rational argument.

      Just because some folks don't need or want spirituality doesn't prevent others from having it. There are plenty of scientists and engineers and even evolutionary biologists who believe in God. The ones earning a Nobel probably won't, party because there's a lot of things you can't do if you want a Nobel -- you won't have time for your family, and if you were the kind of person who puts family (or God) ahead of a career then you weren't going to do what it takes to get that Nobel Prize.

      There's some very confused, vocal people that have made the issue rather annoying. My religion says nothing about the physical world, and my science says nothing about the supernatural.

      Some people have no need for religion or spirituality. Some do. Some people have no need to understand the science behind the things around them. Some do. They're orthogonal issues.

      Flame on.

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    2. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by mdf356 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Well, lets start at the beginning.

      What is this nonsense? Trying to equate loving your family with loving a nebulously defined "thing"? And then trying to use it to bash people that got a Nobel prize...? Jealous much?

      No. To have done the kind of work that earns a Nobel takes a lot of time and effort over many years. That kind of time spend on the science is incompatible with spending time with a family, because there's only 24 hours in the day for everyone.

      You are clearly being not only argumentative, but dismissive (fantasy, magic, ghosts & goblins, and other unsubstantiated nonsense). Did I accidentally hit a sore spot of yours? Because for all that you (well, really the slashdot crowd in general) want to claim that you're rational, you don't argue very rationally sometimes about religion.

      We're not talking about the Phelps crew. We're actually talking about you and others like you.

      Actually, we're not. I was specifically implying the religious folk who don't understand evolution. I do understand it, and I accept it as the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life that we see. If the state of Texas wants to try to "teach the controversy" or whatever mumbo-jumbo phrase the creationists are using lately, and someone else doesn't get to it first, my wife will sue their ass to keep it off the curriculum.

      I pity you, because you must have a really bad life to need to escape from reality and invent things that probably aren't there.

      Ah, *probably* isn't there! You at least admit it's a possibility? That's some real progress!

      I can't prove God exists to you or even to myself. You can't prove she doesn't. It's not really the same, but IIRC it's pretty unlikely we'll ever know what was on the far side of the Big Bang, either. That doesn't mean physicists haven't advanced hypotheses, and I'll wager some of them even *believe* that one or another of these hypotheses must be the right one... even without proof.

      Among other things, I observe some people dying for others when they don't have to (altruism). I observe some amazing changes of heart in people I interact with that would not be expected or predicted. I observe some real sacrificial love. I observe people like Martin Luther King, who believed in God and also achieved some real greatness by following where he thought God was leading.

      But I suppose MLK was also a quack who needed to escape reality? Mahatma Ghandi was just confused?

      but unless you can show that they are a reality

      This in fact is a fallacy; here's why. By its very nature the supernatural is "super" natural. If it were measurable, repeatable, therified and falsifiable, it would cease to be *super*natural and merely be a part of nature.

      Perhaps someday we can figure out why (or if) prayer works -- is it quantum mechanics? What if it turned out that thinking positive thoughts about someone affected their life even if you never told them or interacted with them? (That's spooky action at a distance. :-)

      There's plenty of things under the sun that aren't yet known. And in the end, no matter how much science explains of *how* things are done (gravity makes things fall, not angels; evolution created man, not God in 6 days), it will never explain *why*. Maybe there isn't a why, but *if* there is, science will never find it. It's not a question science is equipped to ask. So instead we have philosophers and religions to attempt an explanation of why.

      Have a great day! Try not to get too mad because we disagree. I mean, I know someone (in your opinion, me) on the internet is *wrong*, but hey, it's just electrons. I don't want or need to convince you God is real, I just would like a little less reactionary hatred towards those who believe in God. Not all of us are also anti-science nuts.

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    3. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by UncleTogie · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Look buddy, I don't really care how many people believe in your fantasy creations of vague-to-the-point-of-meaningless abstractions like "God" is often portrayed (I doubt you can even coherently define what "God" is).

      Fine, come up with definitions for "love", "art", and "beauty" that EVERYONE can agree with and we'll talk. Spirituality has a different meaning for each of us, and I reserve the right to remind both theists and non-theists of this at any time. Just 'cause you don't agree with my take on it, or I with you, doesn't mean either of us needs to be insulting.

      --
      Don't tell me to get a life. I'm a gamer; I have LOTS of lives!
    4. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by TerranFury · · Score: 2, Insightful

      critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god.

      In fairness, what you get out of a system of logic depends entirely on the postulates you use.

      If it is possible to postulate the existence of god(s) in a way consistent with observation, then it is not really illogical.

      God doesn't really fail logic. It might fail Occam's Razor, but that's more of a rule-of-thumb than anything else.

    5. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by Coryoth · · Score: 4, Informative

      Perhaps someday we can figure out why (or if) prayer works -- is it quantum mechanics? What if it turned out that thinking positive thoughts about someone affected their life even if you never told them or interacted with them? (That's spooky action at a distance. :-) Well there have been a few double blind studies on the effectiveness of prayer in medical cases. The results were that prayer made no difference whatsoever (I seem to recall there was a very slight (not statistically significant) bias for patients who had people praying for them, and knew people were praying for them, to do worse). So how does prayer work? Currently all the evidence we have says that it doesn't.
    6. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      "This in fact is a fallacy; here's why. By its very nature the supernatural is "super" natural. If it were measurable, repeatable, therified and falsifiable, it would cease to be *super*natural and merely be a part of nature."

      If the supernatural isn't any part of nature, how does the supernatural affect the natural world?

      It can't unless it extends into reality.

      If it extends into reality, it can be measured, hypothesized about and falsified.

      So which is it? Outside or reality or part of it?
      Choose one, then we can tear that apart.

      BTW: GodDidIt, is not an answer to the question "why" - it's still wishful thinking.

    7. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by mdf356 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I go to an Episcopal church, which is one of the essentially non-doctrinaire Christian denominations. There are no creeds required to attend or be a member in good standing, though we do recite the Nicene Creed on Sundays. But some of my friends at church are "heretics" (heresy just being another word for a different idea about God; one that isn't mainstream), who don't e.g. believe that Jesus was divine in any way.

      What should my church say about the physical world? My priest isn't a scientist, he's a priest.

      I believe God created the heavens and the earth. I don't know how, though the observations indicate he knows a lot about chaos theory and there was some kind of big bang at the beginning. Where that initial matter came from that exploded (or I guess really just expanded), I don't know (but neither, yet, do physicists).

      I believe that God wants me to do certain things (love others, charity, compassion, forgiveness), and not do other things (hatred, spitefulness). I think these are rather universal to the organized religion (mine and other Christian denominations).

      But as for whether I should vote Democrat, Republican, independent, Libertarian, Green Party or should eschew politics, the religion is silent. If my priest told me who I should vote for (as seemed to happen at some churches in 2000 and 2004), or denied me communion because of my political affiliation or voting record (as happens at some Catholic churches) I would leave it, and hope that I could find some place to be in community with folk who share some of the same ideas about God that I have.

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    8. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Among other things, I observe some people dying for others when they don't have to (altruism).... I observe some real sacrificial love. Altruism may not be good for survival of the individual, but it is good for survival of the species. And Darwinism works at pretty much all levels -- if there were two groups of humanoids early on, and one was altruistic, while another wasn't, the altruistic group would've had a better chance of survival.

      I observe some amazing changes of heart in people I interact with that would not be expected or predicted. I observe some insanity, also. For all we know, that's what it was -- a random fluke of insanity that took them in a good direction.

      Or maybe it was building for some time now, and they only just now admitted to it.

      I observe people like Martin Luther King, who believed in God and also achieved some real greatness by following where he thought God was leading. And I observe people like Charles Manson, who thought he was following where God was leading, too. Delusions don't necessarily have to have bad results -- and, conversely, just because something has a good result does not make it real.

      This in fact is a fallacy; here's why. By its very nature the supernatural is "super" natural. If it were measurable, repeatable, therified and falsifiable, it would cease to be *super*natural and merely be a part of nature. I highly recommend reading David Hume -- even just his Wikipedia page. A favorite quote of mine: "When anyone tells me, that he saw a dead man restored to life, I immediately consider with myself, whether it be more probable, that this person should either deceive or be deceived, or that the fact, which he relates, should really have happened."

      It's part of a larger argument that the world is, essentially, natural, and not supernatural. Having never directly experienced anything supernatural myself, I have no reason to assume that the supernatural exists -- and, in fact, it seems much more likely that any record I have of the supernatural (including, nay, especially the Bible) is faulty than to assume that there is something so beyond the physical laws that we could never hope to explain it.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    9. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by Hijacked+Public · · Score: 2, Insightful

      To have done the kind of work that earns a Nobel takes a lot of time and effort over many years Absolutely false.

      Al Gore won one for putting together a slide show. Even if he isn't particularly 'good at computers' that thing couldn't have taken more than a couple of days to make.
      --
      "Sacrifice for the good of The State" - The State
    10. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by mdf356 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If the supernatural isn't any part of nature, how does the supernatural affect the natural world?

      By analogy, let me suggest one way.

      Remember Flatland? To a two-dimensional creature, a three-dimensional creature can do some amazing things. It doesn't know how and can't really conceive of it, but they were nevertheless possible.

      Realize this is an analogy only; I can't claim to know how God affects the world, though I have some theories. But they're not *scientific* theories, they're really more like interesting philosophy exercises (how many angels can dance on the head of a pin; if a tree falls in the woods and no one hears it did it make a sound).

      Choose one, then we can tear that apart.

      You are very convinced that you're right, clearly. I don't need you to believe in my god or any other god. But you don't seem like you'll be happy until you prove me (or others who believe as I do) wrong.

      BTW: GodDidIt, is not an answer to the question "why" - it's still wishful thinking.

      If you don't believe in God then of course God can't answer the why. In that case you're left with *no* answer to the why, which is fine if you like it. But thousands of years of philosophers tells me that some people at least want to speculate on the why.

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    11. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by mdf356 · · Score: 2, Informative

      It includes evolution, for example, and certainly has no room for the "you have to believe it because it's written here". Like gays and lesbians are "sinning"? What a load of crap.

      Who are you arguing with? Because it's not me. As I said in another comment, I think evolution is the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life we see. I don't think it's a sin to be gay if you're gay.

      You're attacking someone else's religion. As I said above, it's frustrating to me that, because of some vocal idiots, there's a lot of people that think that, because I believe in God, I must therefore also believe all these other things that are ridiculous.

      I only believe *one* ridiculous thing. :-)

      --
      Terrorist, bomb, al Qaeda, nuclear, yellowcake, kill, assassinate. Carnivore is dead... long live Echelon.
    12. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by trolltalk.com · · Score: 2, Insightful

      because I believe in God,

      ... in other words, it's just a belief; if you have evidence, solid proof, please present it, or admit that it IS just a belief, and that it fails to stand up under critical examination as anything more than mere superstition.

    13. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No. To have done the kind of work that earns a Nobel takes a lot of time and effort over many years. That kind of time spend on the science is incompatible with spending time with a family, because there's only 24 hours in the day for everyone.

      And what does that have to do with religion? You snuck that little jab in there for a reason, why not follow through with it? Not only are you probably wrong (a lot of work over the years doesn't mean Nobel prize winning scientists don't spend time with their families...) but your little tangent on Nobel prize winning scientists not "having time" for... god and family is out of place and I wonder what your agenda really is.


      You are clearly being not only argumentative, but dismissive (fantasy, magic, ghosts & goblins, and other unsubstantiated nonsense). Did I accidentally hit a sore spot of yours? Because for all that you (well, really the slashdot crowd in general) want to claim that you're rational, you don't argue very rationally sometimes about religion.


      No, I'm very rational towards religion. I know you probably have ants in your pants being told your belief in a god is no more justified or special than a belief in unicorns or magical powers, but that's the way it goes when you believe in unsubstantiated things that have as much evidence going for them as fantasy creations.

      Actually, we're not. I was specifically implying the religious folk who don't understand evolution. I do understand it, and I accept it as the best scientific explanation for the diversity of life that we see. If the state of Texas wants to try to "teach the controversy" or whatever mumbo-jumbo phrase the creationists are using lately, and someone else doesn't get to it first, my wife will sue their ass to keep it off the curriculum.


      Good, but that doesn't change the fact that you also rely on non-scientific explanations and statements about the world, being god and, judging by what you say later, miracles and probably a host of other stuff. If you want to live in reality it's best for all of us that you keep your head there.

      Ah, *probably* isn't there! You at least admit it's a possibility? That's some real progress!

      OF COURSE it's possible. You think you win points for believing in something that's possible? Your lack of knowledge of philosophy shines here, because probably anything can be possible as human understanding is not and cannot be 100%.

      This is exactly why god is in the same realm as big foot, unicorns, magic, the ether, the river Styx, and so on. These are all possible, sure you have to bend our current understanding of the world by adding in new statements and new assumptions to make them true (and thus new questions are raised, but strangely proponents of bullshit never seem intent on answering them honestly) but that doesn't stop people from thinking that because it's possible, it justifies belief in such a thing. Far from that fact.


      I can't prove God exists to you or even to myself. You can't prove she doesn't. It's not really the same, but IIRC it's pretty unlikely we'll ever know what was on the far side of the Big Bang, either. That doesn't mean physicists haven't advanced hypotheses, and I'll wager some of them even *believe* that one or another of these hypotheses must be the right one... even without proof.


      I never said "prove", it's a highly misleading word especially among the layman who has no understanding of reason and epistemology and thinks things can be "proven 100%" etc etc.

      Regardless of what proof means, evidence is what is important. We have evidence that we are a single planet in the solar system orbiting a star with many other stars out there. Explanations that stars are holes in the sky don't fly anymore and for good reason. Is it possible, through some convoluted explanation, that they are merely holes in the firmament...? Of course. Anyone who thinks that is full of nonsense, however.

      Scientists who believe without stro

    14. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by MindlessAutomata · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Your argument is as cliche as it is not clever. Love is an emotion, art is a creative endeavor, and beauty is typically something that stirs a sort of emotional reaction.

      Yes, it is hard to define many things especially since you cannot really describe one emotion or sensation in terms of another emotion or sensation. A lot of philosophy is trying to pin down a good definition--and a lot of philosophy is also carefully defining what you mean so it is understand what exactly you are arguing for. Saying you believe in "God" tells me almost nothing because I don't know what "God" is supposed to be. When someone says "love", "beauty", or "art", however, I do have an idea of what they are talking about.

      Notice that "love", "beauty", and "art" are heavily subjective things, while "god" is not--god is supposed to be some sort of objective entity. Thus "god" needs to be defined so a discussion can be had on it. Maybe someone has an "internal" god of sorts but that's not what we're talking about and you'd be guilty of equivocation if you tried to bring such meanings into the discussion.

    15. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by j-pimp · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If my priest . . . denied me communion because of my political affiliation or voting record (as happens at some Catholic churches) I would leave it, and hope that I could find some place to be in community with folk who share some of the same ideas about God that I have.

      People were denied communion because of stances they took on issues, not because of their party. The Catholic Church is against abortion, and believes it to be murder. It denies communion to those that allow abortion (as they see it murder) to happen on a large scale.

      I don't see that as meddling with politics in ways it should not.

      --
      --- Justin Dearing http://www.justaprogrammer.net/ We're just programmers.
    16. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by SanityInAnarchy · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not if the non-altruistic one destroyed the altruistic group. Circular argument. And my point was internal altruism. That is, assume they're at war with each other -- but one group is just purely selfish, and the other is actually altruistic, takes care of its wounded, protects its children, etc.

      You just provided the same kind of argument the other guy did. "Hey, maybe it was -insert cause-. I'm not going to provide any evidence other than that just stating its a possibility." Except mine is a possibility, and I think a good deal more credible than a mythical sky-wizard.

      Or, seeing as how I'm pretty sure we can all agree that humans make mistakes, maybe manson just misunderstood what he was supposed to do. And, seeing as how I'm pretty sure we all agree that God, by definition, is not supposed to make mistakes, why would he choose Manson?

      You haven't had a supernatural experience, therefore its more likely the one's who have had the experience are being deceived. Why is it that they're the one's being deceived. Maybe you're the one deceived. The exact same argument can be applied against you. Fair enough -- we can't truly know anything.

      But have you actually had a supernatural experience of your own? If not, your argument is hypothetical and devil's advocate, and mine is based on experience.

      I find it hard discount its existence just because you have found no natural evidence of the supernatural. I don't discount it, but I don't often waste time speculating on it, either. There may well be an invisible pink unicorn in my garage, but which should be the default position regarding that? Should I spend my life searching everyone's garage for fine pink unicorn hairs that she's shed, or an occasional hoofprint? Or should I just assume that there's no unicorn until someone proves otherwise?

      By the way, a primary argument of GP was that the supernatural cannot, by definition, have natural evidence. So whenever we find natural evidence to explain a very weird phenomenon, it ceases to be supernatural, and becomes natural.

      We have thinking machines that we're using to communicate over vast distances, using the same energy that powers lightning. It sounds very supernatural, but it's actually very natural.

      Hume's argument is that for any given supernatural event, it either is not real, or it can be explained naturally -- even if we ultimately have to discover new natural laws to apply to it.

      Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Absence of belief is not denial of possibility.

      to try and prove those who disagree with you as being wrong is somewhat silly. Well, it's incredibly, insanely silly to believe in an invisible pink unicorn. Yet it's socially accepted to believe in a sky-wizard.

      Your entire argument seems to be a wishy-washy Agnostic "Well, maybe it could be true!" That applies to anything. If belief in God is critical thinking, I don't know what isn't.

      Which is not to say that people aren't capable of both. As has been pointed out elsewhere, many great scientists were religious.

      I do know that trying to claim one as 100% certain... You see, I never did that. To quote myself:

      I have no reason to assume that the supernatural exists -- and, in fact, it seems much more likely that any record I have of the supernatural (including, nay, especially the Bible) is faulty than to assume that there is something so beyond the physical laws that we could never hope to explain it. That's not an expression of certainty. That's pure Occam's razor. Given two possibilities -- that a man has risen from the dead, or that someone made up a story -- which one is more credible, given your experience?

      Of course your answer may be different than mine -- maybe you've seen angels, and maybe you have considerable reason to believe that you were sane and conscious at the time.

      But the vast majority of us have not seen angels, or anything else truly supernatural. The vast majority of us should, therefore, be atheist by default, if we wish to believe what is actually true.
      --
      Don't thank God, thank a doctor!
    17. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by suprslackr420 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      The gist is, there's an argument to be made that the "smartest" people in various scientific disciplines don't believe in God. Those would be the Nobel winners. My point was that they are smart in a scientific sense but generally lacking in emotional (and spiritual) intelligence. Folks at the top of the academic ladder tend to be very focused and driven on that one specific thing, and the example of not spending time with family was about lacking emotional intelligence. They don't have the same need for closeness, or they would be with family and not working in the lab 16 hours a day.

      Ridiculous.

      Perhaps I love science because I like understanding how God did things.

      Do you think that your god follows the laws of the universe (the things that science tries to understand and describe)? If you do, then your god is really just a scientist with really good scientific knowledge. Which means it's not really a god (or at least not by most religious folk's definitions).

      I could believe that there is no why. It makes me happier to believe there is.

      Nuff said. Why are you still trying to claim to be rational?

      I don't need to be "right" on this; in fact I admit that there's no way to prove it one way or another. But you keep trying to insist that, because there's a lack of proof and it's rather improbable, I must be wrong and I must admit it.

      Who tried to get you to admit you were wrong? I didn't read that anywhere. There isn't any way to prove you're wrong (google Russel's Teapot), but you could admit that there is no good reason that you believe in a god.

      Related, I don't know why it makes you happier to believe in a god. I don't believe, but if all of a sudden there was incontrovertible proof of a god, I'd be really scared. Because that's the dude that makes everything happen, including the bad stuff.

      --
      ubi dubium ibi libertas.
    18. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by Sciros · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not if the non-altruistic one destroyed the altruistic group. The point made was that altruism, and other "virtues" that some believe are inspired solely by religious tenets, can be explained by other means -- means with a basis in science rather than religious texts. I can't prove or disprove the existence of the supernatural. Rumors of its existence have existed since the early times of our species. I find it hard discount its existence just because you have found no natural evidence of the supernatural. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Its fine if you don't believe in it, but to try and prove those who disagree with you as being wrong is somewhat silly. I don't know if you're right or wrong, or for that matter, who is right or who is wrong. I do know that trying to claim one as 100% certain (which is silly from a scientific view, since science normally never claims 100% certainty of anything) is ridiculous unless you offer something much more substantial than anything I've ever seen posted on Slashdot. Let the believers believe. Lets the nonbelievers not believe. And let them not call each others names, unless warranted (which applies to both the religious zealots and the science zealots). While you may find it hard to discount something that has no rational explanation or evidence that stands up to scrutiny, I find it extremely easy. This is because I take a rational, scientific approach to the question. Is there evidence for a deity (direct or indirect)? Are there reliable observations that suggest the likelihood of a deity (be it Zeus, Thor, Yahweh, or something more ephemeral)? The answer to that question is 'no.' This makes a deity exactly as likely as other things that have no evidence for their existence -- firebreathing dragons, fairies, and so forth.

      People like to say "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence." That's true, but it doesn't mean there's a 50/50 chance of existence/absence (as I'm sure you would agree if we applied the same argument to fairies). At some point you have to ask yourself, how do you tell the difference between utter "absence of evidence" and actual "absence" altogether? The answer is, of course, you can't. And you may also ask, what then is the probability of existence, given this impression of absence?

      For a deity, some may present the argument from ignorance -- "I don't understand x, which leads me to believe it has supernatural origins" (or something to that effect). Looking at history alone should be enough to show how ridiculous a statement this is (as it once applied to thunder and lightning, and then to species diversity, and then to the origin of life, et cetera). But even on its own, the statement is utterly meaningless, as it attempts to explain something using the unexplained. Using what appears to be unexplainABLE, even, as some theists will agree and yet be satisfied.

      A belief that the supernatural for which there is no evidence serves as explanation for anything, is irrational.

      Finally, the "religious zealots and science zealots" parallelism is irresponsible. I'm paraphrasing an insightful quote, but basically: when two sides argue with equal fervor, it does not mean that the truth lies midway; it's possible for one side to simply be wrong.

      With a rational thought process, it becomes quite clear that one side is indeed wrong, and which side it is.
      --
      I like basketball!!1!
    19. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by lgw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      The Nobel committee gave Arafat a peace prize for murdering Jews. Why does anyone take anything that this committe does seriously? It's a sad joke these days.

      --
      Socialism: a lie told by totalitarians and believed by fools.
    20. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by euxneks · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If you don't believe in God then of course God can't answer the why. In that case you're left with *no* answer to the why, which is fine if you like it. But thousands of years of philosophers tells me that some people at least want to speculate on the why.
      It's silly to imply that in order to get answers you need to believe in the supernatural. In fact I resent the implication. It's almost as if you're saying: "If you don't believe in God you're ignorant. You have no answers"
      I could just as well believe that I could walk to the moon. I could have faith that I could make a rock from a vacuum. However, they'd put me in a loony bin if I tried.
      Even if I did believe in God, He can't answer the why anyway! As far as I know no-one's got his phone number...? (Also, if anyone claims to, they're most likely placed in an asylum, or given a big pointy white hat ;P )
      --
      in girum imus nocte et consumimur igni
    21. Re:Since you brought up religion ... by ottothecow · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Having met several nobel prize winners and several others who I wouldn't be surprised if they received one soon (already holding other prestigious awards such as the national medal of science and having done groundbreaking research in their fields) I would say that most of them have a *better* than average family life.

      --
      Bottles.
  39. Teaching my kids Skepticism by netsavior · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I have had some success teaching my kids skepticism just by virtue of my parenting strategy. I don't ever really expect them to accept "Because I said so" I think that really hinders a person to be taught from a young age that if someone of authority says it, than it must be true.

    Instead I approach every disagreement as an opportunity for a proof. "Why do I have to eat my broccli?" "Well I guess you don't, but it is pretty hard to find iron that is more easily digestable. You need iron levels in your blood to be high enough so it can process oxygen more efficiently or you will find yourself lacking energy, being tired, and even potentially becoming pale and sick. There are other ways to get the vitamins you need, but to me Broccli is worth it because it is actually pretty good, and convenient because it is right her on the table."

    Sure he may still not eat the broccli, but at least I tried to appeal to his logical side and gave him a reasonable and easy to understand stance. Always honoring his questions, and answering with real logic and real science means that whenever someone CAN'T answer with something real, he will imediatly have red flags.

    While "Because I said so" would probably make a lot of kids get their nutrition today, my approach will hopefully inspire him to THINK about his nutrition, and question risk/reward and give hom practice evaluating trade-offs.

    1. Re:Teaching my kids Skepticism by anilg · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thats an important thing that I wanted to comment on:

      Say "I dont know".

      Thats worth repeating. Say "I dont know". I'm not a parent (hardly 22) but i've seen many parents/teachers being incapable of saying those three words, as if uttering them would make the child think less of them. This mentality leads to the same conditioning of the child, and he may ,overtime, accept a flimsy argument and regurgitate rather than question it.

      An "I dont know" from a parent or a teacher shows the child theres nothing wrong in admitting. This will take him a long way. For bonus, you could look up the question at hand and find the correct answer, and teach yourself and the child a thing.

      PS : I think there should me more parents like netsavior

      --
      http://dilemma.gulecha.org - My philospohical short film.
  40. Science vs. Religion? by flnca · · Score: 3, Insightful

    So, in the USA, are science and religion still fighting? Why not let people have their beliefs?

    And how many people that believe in the scientific method expose themselves to the theater of science business?

    A former professional scientist once told me, that scepticism is so big that it's difficult to introduce new ideas.

    But when it's difficult to introduce new ideas, you have basically the same thing that stifled progress in the Dark Ages: Stagnation. Some scientists fear so much for their reputation that they barely dare to publish new ideas.

    Having a healthy dose of scepticism is good, but if it's overdone, it doesn't help either.

  41. Skepticism is forbidden by the Christian right. by EWAdams · · Score: 2, Funny


    Don't even think of trying to teach logic or critical thinking to our children, you satanic commie traitor!

    --
    I piss off bigots.
  42. MOD UP! by jawtheshark · · Score: 2, Informative

    When I saw this headline, it was the first thing that came in my mind! (I checked, you're the only one who mentioned it -- did a quick search on -1 on "Dragons")

    Direct link

    --
    Ahhh...the great dumpster continuum. Many a free computer will be found there. -- sowth (748135)
  43. Re:Is this really... by Bloodoflethe · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, the whole time I've been reading this, I've been thinking: "I think they mean critical thinking." Thinking critically is key to getting to the facts. They stopped teaching that in grade school many years back.

    --
    "Little is much when little you need."
  44. it's all about the sources by pm_rat_poison · · Score: 3, Informative

    Provide a lot of sources. Always teach both sides of the argument. Prefer primary sources than commented material and leave critical analysis to yourself / your students.
    Spend sometime understanding the argumentative process and teach / learn how to identify bad arguments. http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/
    I only know one thing: That I know nothing. (brought to you by Socrates
    You have two ears and one mouth. Listen twice, speak once
    The basic meaning is to teach / learn that no matter how much you know and you've studied, you should always treat yourself as if you know nothing. In a sense, you always do.

  45. Re:Fail a lot? (Randi's horoscope experiment) by cellocgw · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Yeah, but even after he reveals the trick to the class, a significant percentage of them continue to believe the horoscope is 'real' and is aimed at them personally.
    "... the Gods themselves..."

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  46. need both skepticism & wonder by johnrpenner · · Score: 2, Insightful


    while it is important to foster a healthy skepticism (for obvious reasons),
    the other half of this is that without a natural wonder and reverence,
    much knowledge of the world may never be revealed to the pure skeptic.

        "Reverence awakens... a sympathetic power through which we attract
          qualities... around us, which would otherwise remain concealed" (HTKHW)

  47. I can prove that wrong (logically, of course) by Crazy+Taco · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Of course, critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god.

    Given 1: I believe in God.
    Given 2: I am an excellent computer engineer, with dual degrees in computer engineering and computer science.
    Given 3: Earning dual degrees in computer engineering and computer science and working as a computer engineer require strong critical thinking and logical skills. They also require having taken classes in logic and critical thinking.

    Step 1: Earning computer science and computer engineering degrees and working in the computer engineering field require logical and critical thinking skills (Given 3), and I work in this field and have those degrees (Given 2). Therefore, it follows that I have logical and critical thinking skills.

    Step 2: I have logical and critical thinking skills (Step 1), and I believe in God (Given 1). Therefore, there exist some people who believe in God and have critical thinking and logical skills.

    Conclusion: I have disproved your statement that "critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god" by counterexample. QED.

    --
    Beware of bugs in the above code; I have only proved it correct, not tried it.
    1. Re:I can prove that wrong (logically, of course) by uniquename72 · · Score: 5, Funny

      The best pro-God post in the history of /.
      Thank you!!

      -an atheist

    2. Re:I can prove that wrong (logically, of course) by guaigean · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Not that I am attempting to cause disbelief, but critical thinking in one area of a person's life does not necessarily guarantee it in other areas. Within a certain area of focus, you may have critical thinking and logistic skills, but in another they may be lacking or overlooked.

      For example, a person may be a brilliant mathematician, engineer, or computer scientist, and able to reason through complex logic structures present in those fields. However, when it comes to personal relationships, they may repeatedly enter into abusive situations (domestic violence, alcoholism, drug abuse, etc.), with an emotional need for acceptance outweighing the sensibility to avoid such encounters. They may even reason through those situations, attempting to create a logical basis that things are not as bad as they may be. However, it can still be argued that they are making irrational decisions lacking critical judgment.

      Essentially, intelligent people come up with intelligent reasons to believe in irrational things. Again, not citing religion specifically, but I believe that while the grandparent's idea that religion and logic can't co-exist is incorrect, I believe the assumption of logic and critical thinking in all areas of one's life based on logic and critical thinking in one area of a person's life is also a flawed argument.

      --
      Microsoft Sucks, F/OSS Rocks. I get mod points now right?
    3. Re:I can prove that wrong (logically, of course) by DaveV1.0 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Conclusion: I have disproved your statement that "critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god" by counterexample. QED. Your conclusion is nonsense. If one starts with a fallacy, then one arrives at a false conclusion. Even with your logical thinking and critical thinking skills, if you start with a false premise, such as "the bible contains true information", then you can end up with the false conclusion that there is some reason to believe in God.

      Before one can use logical and critical thinking to justify belief in God, one must provide evidence of a God. There is no evidence that there is a God, therefore there is no possible way logical and critical thinking lead to "Believe in God." To come to that conclusion, one must stipulate that there is, in fact, a God to believe in, which is a fallacy.
      --
      There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
    4. Re:I can prove that wrong (logically, of course) by luder · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Step 2: I have logical and critical thinking skills (Step 1), and I believe in God (Given 1). Therefore, there exist some people who believe in God and have critical thinking and logical skills. Conclusion: I have disproved your statement that "critical thinking and logic are anathema to anyone who believes in god" by counterexample. QED. You also proved that people who have critical thinking and logical skills not always make use of those skills.
    5. Re:I can prove that wrong (logically, of course) by wolfemi1 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Actually, that's not a pro-god post, that's an anti- (anti-god) post, which is not necessarily "for".

  48. My 7th grade science teacher by quux4 · · Score: 2, Interesting

    ... gave us all a nice healthy dose in skepticism by laying down a series of facts (with one wrong one), then setting us on the task of running an experiment to show those facts. Except he also led a lot of us astray by suggesting a certain way to do the experiment.

    Then he graded us on our ability to 1) spot the false fact either by experimentation or by checking reference works, and 2) correctly set up the experiment in light of the wrong fact and wrong suggestions. Except we didn't know these grading criteria going into the project - we learned them afterwards.

    I didn't spot that wrong fact, but did spot the problem with the suggested experiment setup. Lab partners and I got a 'C' for that project, and everyone else (who spotted neither problem) got 'D's. It actually led to some parents complaining, but I still thank Mr. Jackson (not his real name) for having done this. It was when I first consciously learned the value of skepticism in the real world. I owe my parents for having started a mild skepticism habit with a few carefully calculated lies now & then, but that was just the air I breathed; I hadn't really thought about it until Mr. Jackson basically failed almost the whole class for not being skeptical enough.

  49. Re:from the english language perhaps? by quanticle · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Huh? Did you even read your own link? From the second result (the first led me to a 404):

    Skepticism: questioning the validity or authenticity of something purporting to be factual; a doubting attitude; even doubting the possibility of real knowledge of any kind.

    Where does it suggest innately resisting things because they are new?

    --
    We all know what to do, but we don't know how to get re-elected once we have done it
  50. Religion in Science by tobiah · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I've worked in and socialized within a number of scientific fields, and religious beliefs aren't that uncommon, although they rarely intrude much into the research. But I've been surprised at how common a belief in a soul and god(s) in neuroscience is. There is a place where the science and belief can be in direct conflict, as neuroscience is actively explaining away any useful role once played by the soul.

    I found this rather curious, but these were often competent, respected professors. I guess I'm just not smart enough to simultaneously believe two comflicting ideas which eat each other.

    --
    "The ability to delude yourself may be an important survival tool" - Jane Wagner -
  51. Negativity!=skepticism by sorak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    whatcouldpossiblygowrong sometimes seems to be a knee jerk reaction when the story involves food or anything biological, or significantly large. For the sake of fairness, skepticism is asking far more than that one question.

    Case in point: Nuclear Power. We know what could go wrong. Now, what is the probability, and the expected damage? Can we know by looking at our existing safety records, and those of more recent factories built in other countries? Which would result in more deaths; nuclear power, or coal power, once you take into account things such as possible meltdowns, nuclear waste, global warming, coal-mine collapses, etc...

    Now, a true skeptic may be asking "what about solar/wind/water". My point is, that you have to keep asking questions, and do not confuse cynicism or denial for skepticism.

  52. How old? by mollog · · Score: 3, Informative

    Wow, that must have been ages ago. How old are you?

    I'm 55. I went to elementary school in NYC and its northern suburbs.

    --
    Best regards.
  53. How to teach skepticism... by frank_adrian314159 · · Score: 2, Funny

    1. Tell student, "I'm not going to kick you in the nuts."
    2. Kick student in the nuts.
    3. Repeat.
    4. Profit.

    --
    That is all.
  54. All knowledge is fragile ... by constantnormal · · Score: 2, Insightful
    Learning how to distinguish Truth from Non-Truth is incredibly difficult. Perhaps impossible.

    Learning to accept that You Can Be Wrong is only the easiest step, and the one most easily forgotten.

    Here's a simple mathematical test:

    Do you believe that addition is commutative? i.e., that 1+2 = 2+1? For any values of 2 and 1? How about (-2) + 1 = 1 + (-2)?
    In any circumstances? ALWAYS????

    I used to.

    And then I was working my way through (no, I have not yet completed it, and I probably need to begin anew at page 1) John Derbyshire's Prime Obsession -- a historical treatment of Riemann's Hypothesis that attempts to educate the non-professional mathematician reader so that they can at least kinda/sorta understand the problem. And then on pages 149-150, he introduces the Gentle Reader to "conditionally convergent" infinite series, which resolve into different results depending on the order the terms are summed! Yes, there have to be some subtractions mixed in with the additions in the infinite series, but I tend to treat subtraction as a flavor of addition (clearly an error, but I still don't see how) and it made me put down the book and walk around and ponder the significance of what I had read (and I found myself returning to those pages repeatedly instead of moving steadily forward).

    While I can accept that I was wrong, I still don't understand WHY (and am almost certainly never going to). And if I can be wrong about something as apparently simple as addition -- even when dealing with the realm of the infinite (which is almost certainly wherein the difficulties lie) -- I can be wrong about pretty much anything. And so can You.

    When we move from understanding simple mathematical concepts like addition/subtraction to dealing with a Reality that we can grasp only weakly, and can only perceive fragments of (can you see x-rays? feel neutrinos? hear frequencies beyond a narrow range?), it becomes quite impossible to wrap one's mind around even the notion of Absolute Truth. But we seem to be constructed to latch onto simple perceived truths and defend them as if they were the very foundations of our existence -- which in a sense, they are. But that's why being willing to re-invent oneself, casting aside those ideas that have been shown to be different than our notions of them, is so very important.

    Proof is a slippery little devil, while Belief is incredibly sticky.