OpenSUSE 11.0 Released

Nate D writes "It's here: a new major release of Novell's community-supported distro is now available, and can be downloaded from the mirrors. Linux Format has a hands-on look at the new installer, SLAB menu and Compiz Fusion, and weighs up whether the distro can fight competition from Ubuntu and Fedora. Is this the start of a new era for SUSE?"

Comments

Sure, why not.

[impskizzle]

Seeing as how Ubuntu is Vista with a Linux kernel, I don't see why this can't be a new era for SuSE

Re:Sure, why not.

[amnezick]

Oops, run kid

Re:Sure, why not.

[Tubal-Cain]

Troll? He speaks the truth

Re:Sure, why not.

[morari]

The newest Kubuntu (with KDE4) was way too bloated for my poor, old laptop. I've been looking around for something more lightweight since. I'm kind of leaning toward Mepis, but am not quite sure yet. When it comes to a 1.2ghz CPU and only 512mb of RAM, things get sticky. Add-in the fact that there's also all of these weird, proprietary onboard components and things become an utter pain.

Re:Sure, why not.

[Kentaree]

Have you considered trying it without KDE4? Unless I missed something when installing mine, it comes with 3.5 as standard.

Re:Sure, why not.

[Flying Scotsman]

If you're interested in running a non-KDE desktop, have you considered Xubuntu? It's the Ubuntu variant with the lighter-weight Xfce desktop. I run it on a 600Mhz Pentium III laptop with 128MB of RAM, and it works quite well (be sure to grab the "alternate install" disk if you're running with as little RAM as I am).

I had no issues with the non-standard desktop components on my laptop working out-of-the-box, but of course YMMV here. Wireless, sound, etc.

If Xfce is not light enough, you can always install fluxbox, wmaker, etc, all available from the offical apt repositories.

Re:Sure, why not.

[sidnelson13]

I'd say you could give Zenwalk a try (Slack + XFCE). I think it's the best you can get without sacrificing looks and user-friendliness for performance.

Re:Sure, why not.

[FishWithAHammer]

So...install KDE3? You have to go out of your way to download KDE4.

Re:Sure, why not.

[PReDiToR]

My T22 (P3 900, 256, WiFi) runs openSUSE 10.3 with either KDE 3 or Joe's Window Manager that I discovered by trying out DamnSmallLinux.
Basically all I use my laptop for is running NX to my home machine, so a light fast small desktop is the best solution.

On the compatibility side, I do have to run ndiswrapper to make my Linksys PCMCIA WiFi work, but once it is in, KNetworkManager takes care of all the complicated stuff.

Re:Sure, why not.

[Anonymous Cowpat]

I'm vaguely running xubuntu on a 600 MHz Celery with 64MB RAM. It can just about handle a firefox window with 3 or 4 tabs, or mythTV (photos), or Azureus at a real pinch.
My point being that it doesn't even need 128MB, although I wouldn't recommend that you try to make it work full time on 64.

</more data points>

Re:Sure, why not.

[rootooftheworld]

Vector should do too, its supposed to be a user friendly version of slack too

Re:Sure, why not.

[sciurus0]

Seconding the Zenwalk recommendation. It does alright with 64 to 128mb of RAM.

I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

I will not use it on my box. I will not use it with a fox.

Re:I will not

[russlar]

I will not use it on my box. I don't want to know what you are or are not doing with your box.

Re:I will not

[psergiu]

I will not use it on my box. I will not use it with a fox. Why not ? It's Microsoft SuSE ! No one got fired for buying from Microsoft ... And this one is also free !

Re:I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

Hell of an argument isn't it?

"No one ever got fired for buying microsoft."

No one has ever been fired for drinking a glass of warm urine in the privacy of their own home. Doesn't make it the right decision or a pleasant experience.

Well, at least I don't think anyone's been fired for that...

Re:I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

Speak for yourself! I quite enjoy it!!!

Re:I will not

[larry bagina]

plenty of people have been modded down over a nice glass of fristy piss, though. On any given day, there's probably half a dozen people bragging their frosty piss on slashdot.

Re:I will not

[gardyloo]

This is slashdot. Take the education where you can get it!

Re:I will not

[Ilgaz]

While you joke, I checked the Novell CTO's blog about what he would say about new SUSE.

"Hanging out at Microsoft
I will be at Microsoft on Thursday and Friday, and only have meetings on Thursday afternoon.

I would love to meet other hackers. If you want to meet, discuss, talk, drop me an email:

Posted by Miguel de Icaza on 18 Jun 2008"

http://tirania.org/blog/archive/2008/Jun-18.html

What is it called if something is so sad that you can't even risk joking about it?

Re:I will not

[mgblst]

Yeah, all fine. I have been doing it for years. But then post a couple of innocent pictures on facebook, and the shit hits the fan. People are strange.

Re:I will not

[Fast Thick Pants]

What is it called if something is so sad that you can't even risk joking about it? Transportation Security Administration?

Re:I will not

[Anarke_Incarnate]

It is not Microsoft anything, anymore than Dell, HP and Acer are MICROSOFT companies. Novell signed a much maligned agreement for patent protection and inter-operation. You are showing your ignorance.

Re:I will not

[moronikos]

Budweiser is close enough.

Re:I will not

[sunburntkamel]

perhaps if you read their actual CTO's blog, instead of someone related to mono development, you might find what you were looking for.

Re:I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

I think microsoft should take a part of the blame here: http://it.slashdot.org/it/08/06/18/2213232.shtml [Man Fired When Laptop Malware Downloaded Porn ]

Re:I will not

[monkeythug]

Actually, I'm pretty sure he gets it, he's using something called "Sarcasm". You'll find it quite common in these parts.

Re:I will not

[rootooftheworld]

Federal Communications Commition?

Re:I will not

[Anonymous Coward]

But has it been ported to the xbox?

Probably not

[morgan_greywolf]

Is this the start of a new era for SUSE?"

Probably not. Competition between major distros doesn't really exist, because all features are available for all distros. Neither Ubuntu, nor Fedora nor SuSE specialize in anything in particular, so in the end, there's not much difference between them aside from package management and menu layout.

Re:Probably not

[allcar]

Don't underestimate package management - it is critical. It is the main differentiator between distros and it is the key to Ubuntu's current success. It's also one of the main reasons that Linux is so much more stable than Windows.

Re:Probably not

[the eric conspiracy]

I agree. I've had nothing but pain with SuSE's package management over the years. I'm sticking with Mr. U.

Re:Probably not

[catscan2000]

SuSE does offer YaST, which is a very easy-to-use system configuration tool. I need to learn more about Ubuntu, but as far as I know, YaST integrates system configuration bits in a more coherent and consistent manner than other distributions do. YaST was open-sourced at some point in the recent past, so other distros might possibly use it now or eventually, too.

For me, the only downside to SuSE is its slow and memory-inefficient package management system. It gets substantially better with each release, so it might be approaching the speed of apt-get on Ubuntu, but in 10.4, it wasn't quite there yet in performance. In features, however, it's definitely there :-).

Re:Probably not

[Ilgaz]

SUSE managed to differ from other distributions in a political sense after Novell acquistion and MSFT deal.

Now there is SUSE and there are other distros who choose not to be pet of Microsoft. Free choice, guess who wins?

Re:Probably not

[vurian]

In 11, it's definitely there.

Re:Probably not

[chill]

SuSE is a proponent of AppArmor, whereas Red Hat is big into SELinux. If you're big into security, this is a major difference.

http://www.novell.com/linux/security/apparmor/selinux_comparison.html
http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/SELinux

Re:Probably not

[AvitarX]

When I first used Linux it was redhat, and when I wanted to reconfigure the sound I had to re-install it (I guess knowing sndconf was the command would have helped, but I didn't).

Then SUSE came with the YaST, and I could "re-install" without actually reinstalling, and much time was saved.

Of course now all that stuff is real obvious anyway, so it doesn't really matter.

Re:Probably not

[norminator]

I don't think the default graphical package management tool is anywhere near as easy to use or as convenient as Synaptic. Every time I wanted to install a new package, it seemed to insist on updating the repo information (well, maybe only once a day, not necessarily every time), whether I wanted to or not... so I'd have to wait for quite a while before I could actually look through the packages. Then I didn't see a way to queue up a number of packages to install all at once. It seemed to want to install one at a time.

Command line yast might be all right for adding packages, I used it a little when I tried the Open Suse 11 beta, but I didn't do anything very complicated with it.

Re:Probably not

[caluml]

Don't underestimate package management - it is critical. It is the main differentiator between distros and it is the key to Ubuntu's current success. That's not what I'd have said, as it's the same as Debian. I'd have said Ubuntu's success was due to having little things pop up and ask you if you want to install mp3 codecs when the user tries to play an mp3, or Flash installer helpers, etc.

Re:Probably not

[hackstraw]

Neither Ubuntu, nor Fedora nor SuSE specialize in anything in particular

They may not specialize, but the liklihood of a 3rd party vendor supporting a particular vendor goes RedHat EL, SuSE, Ubuntu, in that order.

Also, RedHat, my personal least favorite distro, is pretty much the only one I've used for the past 7 years because that is what my employers feel comfy with.

Re:Probably not

[houghi]

I understand the sentiment. However the installer has gotten a complete overhaul. It is fast. Seriously fast. I have been running since Alpha and am still seriously impressed with the speed they have created. It was one of the focus points and I think they have succeeded.

As an added bonus or as a disadvantage (depending on how you feel) you can install things with a one-click install (also via CLI) that sorts out the repositories for you and all the rest.

Oh, the installer is seriously fast. Really fast.

That said, it could still be that you don't like it. That is why there are different distributions.

Just give it a try (install the live version). It is unfair to think that nothing has changed.

Re:Probably not

[morgan_greywolf]

Any reason you can't install AppArmor into Red Hat and SELinux into SuSE?

No, didn't think so.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

The sound you hear are the crickets chirping over the news of this release.

Linux is still buggy and not user friendly.

When your live CD crashes because you have 2 SATA drives, what good is it?

'But it's FREE!' - Free is not worth this hassle. Apple has clearly shown that people will pay out the ass for ease-of-use.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

Obviously you have not installed a recent linux distribution. I dont know what live CD you downloaded , but for obvious reasons it wasnt the right one.

recently I have moved to all Sata Devices DVD, burner , and HDD's all of them installed flawlessly on opensuse 10.3 . Not to mention 11 Alpha and RC .
I am more than positive this would also work with fedora , ubuntu etc. And Im not talking about hooking them up on that cheap a$$ Jmicron crap either. They run with ICH(X) chips or nforce fine.

The funny thing is When I tried a Vista 64 Ultimate installation on the same box , I couldnt get it installed , I found out through evga support that with a sata DVD Drive you need an integrated Vista SP1 .. OOOPS didnt have one so I said FU** IT . Dont need it anyways.

Just goes to show how little you know. So whats buggier ?

Re:Probably not

[Veilrap]

As much as I love linux - for desktop use it is NOT more stable than windows.

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

I personally find YaST package management easier to use than Synaptic.

Other than that, as has been said, all features are available on all distros, so it is just down to personal choice, and what you are used to working with. RPMs and DEBs are very similar once you get them on your machine, you can even use alien to install them.

Been with (open)SuSE since v8.0 so I know my way around this particular distro better than the *buntu boxen that I admin.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

uptime just told me something else

Re:Probably not

[bcrowell]

Don't underestimate package management - it is critical. It is the main differentiator between distros and it is the key to Ubuntu's current success. It's also one of the main reasons that Linux is so much more stable than Windows.

To amplify a little on what you said, what matters for desktop use is:

1. how well the packaging system works (taking care of dependencies automatically, etc.)
2. the quality of the packages (e.g., making sure you don't get a situation where application A needs version 3.4 of a certain library and won't run with 3.5, while application B needs 3.5 and won't work with 3.4)
3. the variety of desktop apps available
4. convenience of being able to find packages without lots of hunting around on web sites
5. up to date desktop apps

My experience with desktop use has been:

• Ubuntu does all five of these things well
• FreeBSD did 1, 4, and 5 well.
• Red Hat did none of these things well.
• Vanilla Debian does 1, 2, 3, and 4 well.
• I only tried SUSE briefly, but I definitely remember that it didn't seem to do 4 well. There was no central repository, so you basically had to websurf and ask around to find web sites that were good, well-maintained sources of packages.

And before twenty people jump down my throat screaming that one of these distros really does all the things I'm talking about, please note the word "well." For example, FreeBSD's ports and packages are intended to do 2 well; it's just that in my experience there were many cases where it failed, probably because there just aren't that many people spending as many hours on packaging desktop apps for FreeBSD as there are for Ubuntu. Also note that I'm only commenting on the desktop here. E.g., I run vanilla Debian now on my server, and I like it just fine.

Re:Probably not

[chill]

Red Hat's support for SELinux is superior to SuSE's. They are much more active in the development of SELinux than AppArmor. The opposite is true regarding AppArmor. SuSE is much more active in the development and support than Red Hat.

Yes, you can add either to the other. But there is far more expertise for AppArmor at SuSE considering they acquired it when they bought Immunix. And there is far more expertise for SELinux at Red Hat, considering how deeply they are involved with it.

And then there is this http://blog.gnist.org/article.php?story=RHEL5-SELinux-Benchmark#AppArmor:

Immunix created AppArmor as an alternative to SELinux, which was considered to hard to administer. Immunix was later aquired by Novell, and included in Novell Suse. Creating and maintaining AppArmor polices is user friendly, and that has led other Linux distributions, like Ubuntu and Mandriva, to include it in the default install. The overhead using AppArmor is said to be around 2% [Cowan].

In a surprise move, Novell laid of most of their AppArmor devlopers in September 2007 [news.com] [linux-magazine.com]. Making the future of AppArmor more uncertain and depended upon the open source community to continue the development. One indication of popularity can be seen in Google trends.

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

In a lot of opinions, it is.

When I changed over (full time) from XP to openSUSE 10.2 I could happily leave my PC on for days, use suspend (RAM and disk) many more times than under XP without a reboot to "freshen up" and I haven't yet seen a SEGFAULT that couldn't be fixed with a rc<service> restart.

In short, my experience is not the same as yours. Have you got odd hardware or an overclocked system?
Full speed BIOS settings, AMD/VIA, ATI GFX (8xAGP, 256M), ATA133 (x6) and everything runs peachy. Under XP having the AMD/VIA combo would cause the OS to crap itself regularly no matter which drivers I used, and I have tried a lot of them.

Now I have a copy of Win2K in VirtualBox running seamless mode for when I need Photoshop. With the recent v1.0 release of WINE I may even lose that ...

And to top it all, Linux has the free edition of NX that is far quicker and immeasurably more secure than VNC.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

Really, I don't think Linux is anymore (or any less) stable on the server. Using UPTIME is a bit NT/1990s, especially since most people recycle their Windows boxes because everyone says to (again, left over NT/IIS 3/1990s advice). I've got heavily used SQL Servers and Oracle RAC Clusters up that tell me that recycling is not a requirement and the boxes stay up fine.

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

Absolutely right.

There is an argument to be made for the way most of the people on the dev team use the software though. Integration is sometimes easier when the functionality has been designed into the distro by the people who created it.

When I was a SuSE user they always had KDE as their default desktop, and to shoehorn Gnome in just never felt as smooth as RedHat with default Gnome. This is my own experience, negated now by openSUSE having both options available.

Re:Probably not

[drinkypoo]

And given that the package management and menu layout are heavily (for Linux Format) berated in this article, I'd say it's the continuance of the same old era for SuSE...

Re:Probably not

[G Money]

FWIW, there is a nice search tool for finding packages for OpenSUSE at Webpin. They've made adding repositories much easier and faster now in 11 as well (zypper is light speed ahead of the old package management tools in OpenSUSE).

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a copy of SUSE 10.1 and installed it on my AMD64 system

No option to install 32bit
YaST crapped itself trying to update
EVERY. SINGLE. TIME.

So I launched the web browser and download Ubuntu.
apt has yet to sh*t all over itself the way YaST did.

Re:Probably not

[CastrTroy]

In my experience, Mandriva all does all 5 of those quite well.

Re:Probably not

[mikesd81]

Open suse has it's own repository, as well as the packman community and these. And you can even simply do yast --install and it'll go get it, or if you have a package you can do a local install and it will resolve the dependencies.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

recently I have moved to all Sata Devices DVD, burner , and HDD's all of them installed flawlessly on opensuse 10.3 . Not to mention 11 Alpha and RC .
I am more than positive this would also work with fedora , ubuntu etc. And Im not talking about hooking them up on that cheap a$$ Jmicron crap either. They run with ICH(X) chips or nforce fine.

The funny thing is When I tried a Vista 64 Ultimate installation on the same box , I couldnt get it installed , I found out through evga support that with a sata DVD Drive you need an integrated Vista SP1 .. OOOPS didnt have one so I said FU** IT . Dont need it anyways. I call bs. I have installed vista beta on a all sata systems and it worked. The release, again it worked. Maybe you had the same issue with the crappy chip set? Systems I tried: 3 different gigabyte DS* boards, 2 asus boards, 5 different Dell systems. All went from XP to Linux to vista, without issue. No multi booting. Single OS systems. Most of these boards or systems were 18 or under months old. Considering Dell, HP, and other have been selling all sata systems with vista since before sp1 arrived. It looks like you read the evga forms and got played by someone.

I don't care what OS you want to use. use the one that is best suited to your needs. Stop spreading bs about an OS you do not like. Spread facts, good and bad, but keep them facts.

Re:Probably not

[CastrTroy]

I really don't care how fast the installer is. I don't install things or the whole OS often enough for it to make a difference. Even the slowest of the Linux installers seems to be fast enough. Speed of installation isn't really a selling feature. Ease of installation, configuration, and use are bigger selling features.

Re:Probably not

[jonbryce]

The main difference other than package management is the system administration tools - do you prefer Drakconf, Yast or whatever Ubuntu, Fedora etc provide.

That's the main reason I stick with Mandriva. Drakconf probably isn't any better than the others out there, but it is what I'm used to, and there doesn't seem to be much point in learning a new one so that I can get everything set up the way I have Mandriva set up.

Re:Probably not

[BPPG]

The main problem is configuring it. But once it's configured to your liking, then it's rock-solid. It's just that by then, most of us start getting bored without any problem-solving to do...

Re:Probably not

[houghi]

Intersting that you mention troubes with 10.1, while in the meantime we have had 10.2, 10.3 and are now at 11.0

Re:Probably not

[BPPG]

Mod parent up Whether or not this is strictly true, it does affect people's perception of SUSE

Re:Probably not

[Ransak]

I use openSuSE exclusively and I've given up on their libzypp junk.

smart is a fantastic package manager that's available for SuSE and works with just about any type of package repository imaginable.

Re:Probably not

[mikesd81]

Yes, I agree totally. Even though from DVD, Suse does install rather quickly, I am very impressed with the layout of the install. Another feature, and Suse is the only one I know that does this by default, aliases the root mail to the first non-root user you add during install.

Re:Probably not

[T-Ranger]

I'm getting mighty tired of your "just do it yourself" attitude on on all these disro stories.

If you want to just do it yourself, feel free. Start from scratch and compile everything yourself. You have that option.

But in a debate about the relative merits of distributions, it goes with out saying that the people involved merit others doing some kind of work for them.

They value some kind of integrated configuration / package management. They value some kind of coherent system layout. They value the ability to get most - if not all - of their system updates from one place. They value the community around that distro, and it being somewhat aligned with quite possibly arbitrary (and even not perfect) technical decisions of that distribution.

Red Hat and Fedora come configured against SELinux. Their packages include the metadata to actually drive SELinux and make it useful. Open/SUSE comes configured against AppArmour. Their packages include the metadata to actually drive AppArmor.

Choosing to hitch your wagon to SELinux/RH or AppArmor/SUSE would be a reasonable choice. Going with either will save you weeks - if not years - of hand tuning the various sets of security metadata. Either choosing RH and then adding AppArmor, or SUSE and adding SELinux would be nothing short of insanity.

Again.. People choose to use distributions partially because they already want a bunch of pedantic, arbitrary and tedious decisions made for them. In many cases, these decisions need not be "100%" right, and I doubt that anyone agrees 100% with their distro-of-choice choices. But, it would be stupid to choose to go one way, but then from day 0 fight with that distros design decisions.

Re:Probably not

[Otter]

I don't install things or the whole OS often enough for it to make a difference.

No, but speed of checking for updates certainly matters to me (I have dial-up at home, so can't just script it) and the extreme slowness of yum (which may well have been fixed by now) was one of the things that drove me off CentOS.

Re:Probably not

[Gandalf_007]

The package management is much faster in 11.0, like a night and day difference. Maybe even faster than apt-get in some cases.

I don't use YaST that much -- the command line tool 'zypper' is more my speed. libzypp (used by both YaST and zypper) was ungodly slow in 10.2, a bit better in 10.3, and is blazing fast in 11.0.

Re:Probably not

[Anarke_Incarnate]

Not to mention, with the 1 Click Install feature, you can also set up the repository for the application you found online very easily. If you install the 3 most popular repos you have nothing to search for that you cannot find right from YaST(within reason).

Re:Probably not

[Anarke_Incarnate]

I would check out zypper again. They reworked its solver for both reliability and speed. Looking at the alpha/beta level movies that they linked to showed me how much better it is. I plan on installing it to my test server by this weekend.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod Parent down. FUD is FUD is FUD.

Re:Probably not

[digidave]

Is it possible to upgrade from 10.3 to 11 while the system is running? I want to go back to Ubuntu so I can get back easy system upgrades. I don't want to download 5 CDs (I have no DVD-ROM at work) to do an upgrade. I want to upgrade while I'm working.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

"immeasurably more secure than VNC"

NX is vnc, or x tunneled trough ssh. I'm do not belive you can call the implementation of an NX user
with the SSH key pair available for everyone immeasurably more secure. Have you ever tried to change the default keys? I gave up :/

Re:Probably not

[vk2]

X crashing or hang-ups don't reset your uptime.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

uhm ok , I'm talking about one of the newer 680i SLI nvidia chipset, not some cheap OEM crap or your 50$ mainboard. Just go over to evga support and take a look, Im not trying to play anyone. It is a known Problem , and may have well been fixed (this issue was ca. 2 months ago) Whether its evga's fault or Microsoft who knows, but usually this kind of problem with the latest hardware happens the other way around :)

And Im not spreading BS, just my experiences with the newest Top End Hardware & OS's, just a fact.

Re:Probably not

[lazy_playboy]

[ubuntu's package management] ... as it's the same as Debian. Well, it uses the same system but I don't entirely agree with you in essence. Ubuntu offers modern packages in a stable format, which is far more labour intensive than Debian's 'old but stable' philosophy.

I'm not dissing Debian for their approach, but it is quite different to Ubuntu's even though they use the same package management.

Re:Probably not

[j_sp_r]

Updating the packages takes seconds now! Try it, it's REALLY fast! It was the major reason to switch to Opensuse 11 now, and not tomorrow. Yes I did install it, and it works really nice. I've also enabled /home encryption. A bit high CPU usage, but that's just a reason to buy a dual-core.

Re:Probably not

[monkeythug]

You can if you use the literal meaning of "immeasurable" ;-)

( Sorry, feeling a bit frivolous today ... )

Re:Probably not

[snoyberg]

Precisely one of the reasons that Linux is more stable than Windows...

Re:Probably not

[drinkypoo]

The whole fucking world has been saying it wanted Debian with updated repositories and cutting-edge software (but that has actually been tested by a human at leastonce.) Ubuntu comes along and gives it to us and people are confused about why it is successful? It's because they give us what we ask for!

Re:Probably not

[drinkypoo]

Especially since you can install Linux by cloning an install trivially, there is no reason whatsoever to be impressed by speed of install. Make a new root (and boot if you need it) and maybe a swap, copy all the files over, change UUIDs in fstab and menu.lst and install grub. Bingo! You've just installed a fully-configured Linux system. Just make sure that if you're changing fstype you install the filesystem tools before you clone. The speed of the install is just simply not interesting - if you have to do more than one install, you can clone. If not, who cares how long it takes to install? This isn't Windows. You won't have to reinstall every two weeks.

Re:Probably not

[drinkypoo]

Have you ever tried swapping the capabilities package on one of these systems and doing useful work on it? Hoo-boy, it is extremely nontrivial, which is why most people who want to use selinux get a distribution which includes it.

Personally I see little point for having selinux on the desktop until some decent GUI tools appear for it, but perhaps that's just my opinion.

Re:Probably not

[t_ban]

For me, the only downside to SuSE is its slow and memory-inefficient package management system. It gets substantially better with each release, so it might be approaching the speed of apt-get on Ubuntu, but in 10.4, it wasn't quite there yet in performance. In features, however, it's definitely there :-).

I installed 10.3 as soon as they released it in October '07, and I'm getting 11 now, so when was 10.4?

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

Debian is def. more stable than Windows.

But Ubuntu?

As much as I love my Ubuntu I've had it crash far more on me than Windows XP.

Nothing against Ubuntu, just pointing out that's not really that rock-solid. (But I guess most people here on /. know that already.)

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

>> When I changed over (full time) from XP to openSUSE 10.2 I could happily leave my PC on for days, use suspend (RAM and disk) many more times than under XP without a reboot to "freshen up"

I did too. Then, one day where I needed top copy on one system disk the information that was on another one, I shut completely my system, plugged the second one as /dev/sdb (my motherboard does not allow hotplugging), booted, and it created a total system mess, trying to restore on one system an frozen image of the other (yes, each one had its own swap file).

I did not lose any data on the /home partition, nor on the second disk, but the system on /dev/sda1 was totally unrecoverable.

Suse is, as far as I know, not really able to deal simply with multiple system disks, multiple Linux distros on the same disk, and so on...

I guess it will be perfectly suited for things like the MSI Wind, though. Not for serious things.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

>> For me, the only downside to SuSE is its slow and memory-inefficient package management system. It gets substantially better with each release, so it might be approaching the speed of apt-get on Ubuntu

Ubuntu package management system is very fast when upgrading installed software.

It is also very fast to crash unrecoverably when upgrading complex installed sets of software.

I am not that sure the result is globally positive. Considering the time I wasted trying to fix things messes up after major upgrades, the answer is no as far as I am concerned :-(

Re:Probably not

[jargoone]

I don't know if you're being pedantic, but if you're not, you're full of crap. Who gives a damn if the window manager or the kernel crashes? You're nevertheless interrupted from using the system.

Re:Probably not

[HermMunster]

Fortunately, Linux is user friendly. No problem with that statement. It is as easy to use as any desktop is. What's currently wrong with it is that it is still buggy, and that is due at least in part to the fact that there's so much fragmentation in the distros. For instance, the latest Ubuntu kernel update wreaked havoc on people's audio, usb, video, wireless, etc. There's a thread on ubuntuforums.org that discusses the various update issues.

That being said, if you can get a machine that is stable and you do no updates to the kernel or other important features, then you can continue to use a very user friendly, stable, attractive, and fun operating system. If, by chance, you see the icon in your sys tray that says you have updates and you are just an average Joe (a human being), and you say it is OK to install (without truly knowing the potential impact of those updates), you can disable your whole system or even create such a mess that your individual features (hardware such as wireless, video, & sound) no longer work or don't work as expected.

I'm not saying this to disrespect linux because it is obvious that the parent to this post was flaimbait. That generally means a Microsoft lover.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

YaST is the main reason i have been sticking with SuSE (since the old 8.1 days). It acts as a portal to all your system management needs. It is incredibly convenient to use (i don't have to remember a dozen different menu options for different needs). All packages are easily available from a whole set of repositories making life much easier.

Re:Probably not

[snoyberg]

Assuming that the only way you interact with the system is the GUI. There's plenty of server processes that I would like to survive even if the GUI crashes. And yes, even on a non-server machine: I will often SSH into my desktop from a laptop. If my wife is watching a movie on the desktop and the whole GUI crashes, I don't lose my work.

Re:Probably not

[HermMunster]

You get segfaults? I run Linux and do absolutely everything on it. Segfaults?

Wow, I haven't seen anything like that in, what? Like 3 years now I haven't seen anything remotely related to that.

I fix PCs every day and know what the BSODs are and what causes them. I get paid good money to know that,so I know what a segfault is (or it's equivalent). I can't even remember seeing one in a very long time...that's why I was prompted to write this comment--a segfault...wow, what an old concept.

Re:Probably not

[HermMunster]

I do fresh installs of Windows XP for customers. Even with a recovery CD one has a huge amount of time to commit to doing one.

For instance, the recovery can take about 45 min to an hour (or more). Then you have to clean all the trial-ware junk off it. Then install programs such as an antivirus, adware-spyware detection and removal tools, a real firewall, probably a replacement for the browser (Mozilla Firefox). Then because the computer can't do much more than browse the web without the trial-ware crap I install open office, google earth, pidgin, and a slew of other open source products. After that I have to spend the next two hours installing updates (install reboot, install, reboot, install, reboot, etc). Then of course you do the stuff that everyone else does--set up mail, copy over backed up data, etc.

With a regular install of XP you can skip the removal of the trial-ware crap but you still have to do all the other stuff mentioned above. And that takes hours.

With Linux it takes about 15 minutes to get the install done (that includes repartitioning the drive to dual boot with Windows, and the installation of those same Open Source programs. Then it takes about another 15-20 minutes to download the updates from on line.

From that you configure things just like you like them. Only with Linux it's more fun and the options are always free. I don't have to worry about paying some company money to add some nifty ability to my desktop. And I don't have to worry about virus protection nor about whether I have good firewall protection. Security is pretty sound unless you go opening up the doors to everyone and the way linux is designed it helps to protect you from yourself.

I say the winner for speed and capabilities goes to Linux, any day!

Re:Probably not

[el americano]

I'm going to try the new version. The worst part of SUSE 10.3 was the interminable software update dialog, which I could not cancel. Just selecting update meant it was time to walk away and come back later.

Re:Probably not

[PixelSmack]

I agree totally, the package manager on openSUSE 10.3 was the reason i switched to ubuntu, i found it utterly horrible to use over my network - i much prefer apt-get and synaptic. On a different note however i would say that i found the installer really good on 10.3, i don't know what the new one is like though.

Re:Probably not

[nawcom]

I'm not sure when the last time you used FreeBSD was. 6 and 7 has about every desktop app you an think of. Tell me one you don't find in the ports or packages.

Re:Probably not

[Jasonjk74]

Same here. I used to use Suse and I got tired of all the problems with YaSt. I saw how much Ubuntu has improved with 8.04 and that's now my distro of choice.

Re:Probably not

[Elektroschock]

But Suse has the Novell evilness features including Open XML support.

Re:Probably not

[mb1]

woah, back up the truck... I have to de-lurk to comment.

you're saying you *know* what causes BSOD's? :)

Re:Probably not

[Gavagai80]

If the window manager crashes, I type 'kwin' and it restarts and I don't lose any of the stuff I'm in the middle of typing, just a couple seconds of time.

That said, kwin normally goes years without crashing -- except when you have a driver problem, as I did last year causing it to die once a week for a bit. If you have a bad driver, no OS is stable.

Re:Probably not

[Gavagai80]

You only lose the GUI if X crashes. If it's just the window manager crashing then your desktop environment is still there, all your windows are still open, and you can start the window manager again without skipping a beat.

Re:Probably not

[Ransak]

Doesn't zypper use mono? That was one of my main problems with it aside from the fact that it almost never worked correctly. I'm not a fan of .NET and cloning it to Linux wasn't a good idea.

smart for me just plain works. It has never failed me, and that's more than I can say for apt-get or yum. (ipkg has actually been pretty good to me on embedded distros, however).

Re:Probably not

[quantumphaze]

Ubuntu would lock up on me sometimes, but at university it was almost constant. Turned out to be the MadWifi driver would sometimes choke on WPA-PSK and always choked on WPA-EAP

I recompiled the MadWifi driver and haven't locked up since.

So YMMV.

Re:Probably not

[Max Littlemore]

I'd have said Ubuntu's success was due to having little things pop up and ask you if you want to install mp3 codecs when the user tries to play an mp3, or Flash installer helpers, etc.

No. That stuff is pretty recent.

I seem to remember the existence of scripts like EasyUbuntu and the like a while back to get that stuff running, although they were a bit dodgy so the command line was preferred in my case. I think that was for the last LTS release.

I also seem to remember that Ubuntu was already gaining a large share before Dapper was released due to the combination of the Debian package management system, human user focus and shorter release cycle thus more current software.

Of course this is all from memory and I couldn't be bothered finding references.

Re:Probably not

[Cenuij]

YaST package management is lightning fast now, I'll wager faster than any apt based tool. How YAST/Zypper became fast Package management using zypper, is probably faster and more memory efficient than any other linux package management tool. How efficient zypper really is openSUSE is a now generations ahead in package management. In my not so humble opinion.

Re:Probably not

[EdibleEchidna]

I haven't yet seen a SEGFAULT that couldn't be fixed with a rc<service> restart Really? Wow, Linux really *is* ready for the Desktop!

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

hahaha! You cannot be serious! ;o)

I run plain old ubuntu with all the fruit and my computer has crashed maybe 2x in 6+ months. My comp is made up from old/spare bits and pieces and is no particular brand and altho it ran XP well, it runs every flavour of Linux I have tried, just as well if not better. Add to that the fact that Linux is free and you have a customer right here...

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

For me, the only downside to SuSE is its slow and memory-inefficient package management system. It gets substantially better with each release, so it might be approaching the speed of apt-get on Ubuntu, but in 10.4, it wasn't quite there yet in performance. In features, however, it's definitely there :-). While this was true, there's two "but": Already for many years you could use apt4rpm (and now smart) for package management. And the 11.0 system seems to have *greatly* improved in speed - maybe I'll switch back to it now. Let's see...

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

su
/usr/NX/nxserver --keygen
cat /usr/NX/share/keys/default.id_dsa.key > /home/NX.key

Now take that key with you along with your SSH key (you are using key-only authorisation, right?) and get it into the NX client (Configure ... / Key ... / [Import or paste] / Save) and you're done.
Yes. I have done that.

And when I say immeasurably, I mean that encrypted SSH is a lot more secure than VNC that goes in plain text over the network a lot of the time for speed. NX only sends compressed screen update data, not the whole screen/window in jpg like VNC.

Don't get me wrong, I used to use VNC, and I don't work for NoMachine or anything like that. I use the free edition and TightVNC was my flavour of choice.

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

Not to get into the same thing as another poster, but when using some Factory stuff I do sometimes get them.
My point is that even after a SEGFAULT I can continue working under Linux unlike Windows where a GPF or BSOD would destabilise the whole system to the point where I would be concerned about my data integrity.
It is possible to restart services under Windows, but I consider it a less robust system than the one Linux uses.

YMMV.

Re:Probably not

[PReDiToR]

Waste of time posting to AC, but for the record:

SDA
MBR Grub - Installed by openSUSE 10.3
1 ntfs - XP (bootable)
2 Reiser - openSUSE 10.3 -> 11 /
3 Reiser - /home
SDB
1 ntfs - Vista (bootable)
HDA
1 ntfs
2 fat32
3 Linux Swap
HDB
1 ntfs
HDC
1 fat32
HDD
1 fat32

Grub on boot gives me Linux (default), XP (usually a resume from hibernate), Vista.
HDA-D are on onboard Highpoint RAID chip, all devices are ATA133.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

You must not know Linux. To say they are the same is like saying that a car is the same as a truck. Each distro is different yet they all share a common bond... the kernel. But then again I love all Linux except SuSe, for the reason they lay in bed with Microslush and whisper sweet nothings in Bill Gates ear about the inner workings of the Kernel. Damn them to hell for their betrayal of the one thing that holds us all in its warm embrace Open Source is not to be sold but shared. If Novell burned down tomorrow I would hold a party and piss on pictures of the green lizard and throw them to the fire with joy. Novell is a sad company full of idiots who stroke Bill Gates as the new savior of the world of computing. I will never sit at a box with Microcrap on it the look of the GUI makes me sick inside to the point I must leave the room. May SuSe die for its betrayal to open source and may Microcrap fade along with it. I will never leave Red Hat and will always teach my children to use Fedora and Ubuntu and mock those who do not.
LINUX KEEP IT SECRET KEEP IT SAFE!

Re:Probably not

[the eric conspiracy]

I understand the sentiment. However the installer has gotten a complete overhaul. It is fast. Seriously fast. I have been running since Alpha and am still seriously impressed with the speed they have created. It was one of the focus points and I think they have succeeded.

Install speed is only one part of package management. In fact I think it was the only part of SuSE package management that I didn't have trouble with in the past.

SuSE lost my trust after it left a laptop of mine inoperable, so I switched to another distro.

The way things are now, Ubuntu will have to screw up for me to look for an alternative. It's the 'don't fix it if it isn't broken' principle.

Re:Probably not

[Anonymous Coward]

yep... it's definitely fast.

I've been using OpenSuse 11.0 all day today and it makes you feel like Fedora 9 is updated by floppy disk.

Not only that but it's too simple to use. What's all this point-n-click crap? I had to go on to the forums to find out how to get a terminal open. In fact, I've finally realised today that I'm no longer a noob and that my minds comfort is now a prisoner of Slackware 7 and an 80 column screen.

Re:Probably not

[Ilgaz]

I heard how easy to use ActiveDirectory with this version of SUSE. So, nobody needs to use industry standard LDAP etc. with their Linux desktops and they can keep their Windows Servers running non standard protocols.

What a big FUD monger I am, really... Perhaps not just being a big FUD troll, I am so old fashioned still remembering Halloween documents and how frightened Microsoft was by Java (.NET!), Linux having industry standard and open protocols (ActiveDirectory!) and the weak points of Linux which they abuse via Novell.

http://www.opensource.ac.uk/mirrors/www.opensource.org/halloween/faq.html

Re:Probably not

[HermMunster]

BSOD, right? Bill Sucks On Donkeys? No, you are too literal, in fact, probably too much so that you have other issues too.

BSODs are generally caused by faulty hardware and/or device drivers. Through hardware that is failing or through poorly written driver. Sometimes other causes.

Now, take that in context and remember that in posts on Slashdot.org we have little time to write a thesis to support people with issues with absolute literalness.

Re:Probably not

[HermMunster]

I was comparing the near absolute absence of segfaults to the utterly common BSOD issues encountered in my field day in and day out.

I was pointing out that I use Linux for everything I do (please no more literal anal retorts). I haven't seen a segfault in so long, probably 2+ years. I've found myself installing Linux on more and more customers computers, and even with hardware I'm not familiar with I never see segfaults.

Re:Probably not

[mb1]

sure, that saves premium slashdot time for flaming, trolling, and not supporting non-issues...

I ditched SuSE

[Anonymous Coward]

when Novell made a backdoor deal with Microsoft. Started using Ubuntu and never looked back.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

Don't drink the Microsoft kool-aid. Novell has continually stated that the deal had nothing to do with patent protection for "Microsoft IP in Linux" - only Microsoft has been pushing that fud. Funny how, if this was such a deal, Microsoft hasn't revealed their supposed IP.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[Ilgaz]

What does Microsoft do with a Linux distributor at first place? Especially after the stock board of that distributor was filled with Chapter 11 rumours until they ink the deal? Did you see their CTO Blog? Does that guy have any other job than cloning MS trojan technologies to Linuxland? I have even seen they tried to port .NET to Apple iPhone and guy cheering about it. WTF has Apple iPhone have anything to do with Linux, Novell or more importantly, .NET?!

One basic question. Is Mono and Moonlight a selected by default option or not?

I would use original XP or Vista rather than a thing which is made by their cloning partners. At least they are original.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

What does Microsoft do with a Linux distributor at first place?

As I pointed out, Novell is more than a linux distributor.

I *do* believe that Mono and Moonlight, in their current guise, are trojans, and that Miguel de Icaza should be given the boot, asap, but that's another story. Novell has done a lot of the heavy lifting for the community, including the SCO crap. OpenSUSE is a good product; it should be judged on its' merits, and not on any FID from Microsoft. After all, Microsoft is claiming that *ALL* linux distros "may violate Microsoft IP". Of course, since they use the weasel-word "may", anyone with 2 brain cells would immediately recognize the fud, but PHBs don't seem to be able to afford the grey matter necessary.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[FishWithAHammer]

I *do* believe that Mono and Moonlight, in their current guise, are trojans Oh, yeah. Interoperability is just terrible.

The CLR is a better framework than anything else out there, and whining about that because Microsoft came up with it is completely retarded. If Java didn't suck, I'd use that--but it does, and .NET/Mono win big in the "not sucking as much as Java" category.

Knee-jerk fear of Mono being used to enforce patents later is ignorant of the legal system; Microsoft has promised that they will not engage in legal action against those reimplementing the .NET BCL and other .NET libraries for interoperability's sake, and thanks to estoppel, they can't win any such legal action.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[FishWithAHammer]

Oh. One other thing.

Why would Mono be bad when Samba and WINE are good?

Re:I ditched SuSE

[AvitarX]

Well, the Linux NFS is so sucky from what I have read), that Samba is quite useful.

I use wine to run keygens for bootlegged aps. They usually run.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[FishWithAHammer]

Well, the Linux NFS is so sucky from what I have read), that Samba is quite useful. Java is so sucky (from what I have worked with), that Mono is quite useful.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

They only make the "promise not to sue" to people who don't do commercial development. In other words, non-competitors. f*ck that.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

Oh. One other thing.

Why would Mono be bad when Samba and WINE are good?

Never said samba was any good - I don't use it. As for wine, the c code I'm writing at work today is targeted to the linux and bsd platforms (like always), and the rest (web stuff), I still develop under linux. For me, the only useful wine is something that comes in a bottle.

As for the CLR, why? I have neither need nor desire for "managed code." If I wanted that, I could use java - at least it's mature, open-source, and has good support on my platform of choice.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[FishWithAHammer]

As for the CLR, why? I have neither need nor desire for "managed code." Good for you. I do, and Mono is an excellent tool for what I want to do. Quit complaining about "trojans" just because you don't understand the situation very well.

If I wanted that, I could use java - at least it's mature, open-source, and has good support on my platform of choice. Java is more mature. Both are open source. Both have good support on Linux and Windows.

But Java is an irritating language to use and has poor native-code bindings in many cases. C# is a pleasant language to use and has good, portable interfaces to native code (giving many benefits of native code with other benefits of managed code).

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

I *do* unserstand the situation. Microsoft is in the habit of trying to introduce new standards that they can control. They tried this when they declared IE dead, and .NET to be the future. Of course, when devs refused to drop support for browser apps, Microsoft had to reconstitute the IE team.

We saw the same fiasco before that with java. Microsoft introduced an incompatible version, then, when they lost in court, introduced c# as a java competitor, rather than support existing standards.

We see this sort of behaviour all the time, most recently with the OLPC, and also with MSOOXML vs ODF.

The performance of managed code sucks - and it always will.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[FishWithAHammer]

I *do* unserstand the situation. Microsoft is in the habit of trying to introduce new standards that they can control. They tried this when they declared IE dead, and .NET to be the future. Of course, when devs refused to drop support for browser apps, Microsoft had to reconstitute the IE team. This is entirely untrue. "IE is dead"? What? What kind of manifestly untrue shit are you talking? .NET was put forth primarily as a replacement for writing applications with the Win32 API. Only later was Silverlight even thought of, and declaring IE to be "dead" doesn't make much sense given the existence of an entire API built as a presentation framework for a browser object.

Anti-Linux FUD is terrible and awful, but screaming FUD about Microsoft is okay by you, apparently.

We saw the same fiasco before that with java. Microsoft introduced an incompatible version, then, when they lost in court, introduced c# as a java competitor, rather than support existing standards. Microsoft came out with a better product than Sun did (J++ was arguably better in a lot of ways, and C#/.NET definitely beats Java all hollow.) The Java "standards" sucked then and continue to suck now.

Why support bad standards?

We see this sort of behaviour all the time, most recently with the OLPC, and also with MSOOXML vs ODF. Oh, please. The OLPC has bigger problems than OMG MICROSOFT TAINTING THE FREE SOFTWARE PURITY. And frankly, OOXML is a better standard than ODF, too. With OOXML, however, their methods for ramming it through ISO were not good, and I don't support the standard because of it--they didn't do any such thing with .NET, and so I use it.

The performance of managed code sucks - and it always will. Performance is irrelevant in most situations these days. You don't need bleeding fucking edge C/C++ performance for a business-logic app.

Use what works best for the job. C/C++ has a place. .NET/Mono has a place. Java has a place too (with the FOSStards who bitchfit about Microsoft being evil). I work on Mono to improve the tools that work best for me in order to have a more comfortable working environment.

I don't tell you not to use your tools of choice or that the developers of your tools of choice should be fired for running a project that--gasp!--you don't believe in. Or do Miguel de Icaza, Novell, and I not have the freedom to work on projects we think are valuable? (The code is free, but not the developers!)

So sit down and shut the fuck up.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

Those who ignore history aren't only doomed to repeat it, they'll end up looking like MS shills on slashdot.

Read what I wrote. Microsoft had disbanded the IE dev. team, saying that "people have no interest in tabbed browsing, etc., and that the future was in net-based apps, not browser-based ones."

(in fact, the Internet Explorer team was disbanded shortly after the release of IE6)

It only took a few secs to come up with a link, and there are plenty more where that came from, so stop with the "rewriting MS history" bullshit, please. Every move microsoft has made was to try to move people onto a different platform that they could control. C#, and also .NET, were supposed to be the tools to do that, and get people away from java and web-based apps, neither of which have a platform lockin. Both attempts are miserable failures. Java now runs on over a billion devices, and .NET is a piece of crap, and will be replaced within the next 5 years by the "next great thing", while people will still be using java and browser-based apps.

You're free to do whatever you want, including working on .net or mono, but be prepared to make yet another shift within the next 5 years. In the meantime, people who are working with "the old standbys" c, c++, and (now) java, will just be increasing their experience level and ubiquitousness.

Performance is irrelevant in most situations these days. You don't need bleeding fucking edge C/C++ performance for a business-logic app.

No, performance is NOT irrelevant. Unless, of course, the app you're writing is trivial.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[FishWithAHammer]

Those who ignore history aren't only doomed to repeat it, they'll end up looking like MS shills on slashdot.

Read what I wrote. Microsoft had disbanded the IE dev. team, saying that "people have no interest in tabbed browsing, etc., and that the future was in net-based apps, not browser-based ones." [netmag.co.uk]

        (in fact, the Internet Explorer team was disbanded shortly after the release of IE6)

It only took a few secs to come up with a link, and there are plenty more where that came from, so stop with the "rewriting MS history" bullshit, please.

Of course they stopped with the IE team. That has absolutely nothing to do with .NET and rather to do with a lack of competition in the market at the time; Microsoft was stupid and rested on their laurels. But seeing as how a good half of .NET is geared towards web services and web applications (ASP.NET), that makes your assertion rather suspect at best.

Every move microsoft has made was to try to move people onto a different platform that they could control. And since Mono apps are binary-compatible with .NET 2.0, there's no lockin for me; Microsoft can't drop .NET 2.0 functionality anytime soon, and even should they do so Mono is BSD-licensed so I could trivially package it with any released applications.. (I have no use for the features in .NET 3.0 or 3.5, although most of the good ones are quickly getting into Mono.)

C#, and also .NET, were supposed to be the tools to do that, and get people away from java and web-based apps, neither of which have a platform lockin. Both attempts are miserable failures. Java now runs on over a billion devices, and .NET is a piece of crap, and will be replaced within the next 5 years by the "next great thing", while people will still be using java and browser-based apps. .NET is considerably better than Java in all worthwhile applications. Java is a piece of shit to actually work with. I've used both .NET and Java, and I'd rather use .NET any day of the week. Better IDE, better toolchain, more useful API, and the ability to easily bind to native code in the case where you need it.

You're free to do whatever you want, including working on .net or mono, but be prepared to make yet another shift within the next 5 years. If that's necessary, it's necessary. I'm not bothered by it--I use what's best for a given task at the moment.

In the meantime, people who are working with "the old standbys" c, c++, and (now) java, will just be increasing their experience level and ubiquitousness. Oh, please. A decent programmer will be able to get by in any language. "Experience" is not language-specific. I can switch over to Java easily, and do when I have to work one of my projects, a Java Server Pages site. If you're as experienced a programmer as you seem to be (and yes, that is a compliment), surely you know that as well as I do.

(And Java and C# are a lot closer than the Java tards want to admit, making switching between the two easy, though unpleasant; the biggest difference between the two languages is that Anders Hejlsberg actually put some thought into what a developer wants to do with a programming language--C# provides a number of facilities that make using the language pleasant, rather than a chore as in C++ or Java.

No, performance is NOT irrelevant. Unless, of course, the app you're writing is trivial. For the vast majority of applications, performance of decently-written managed code is good enough, and so in those cases it is as close to irrelevant as it gets (yes, a retard programmer can cause performance issues, but that's doable in any language). Would I try to write a full-3D-up-the-ass game in .NET or Java? Hell no.

Re:I ditched SuSE

[trolltalk.com]

Of course they stopped with the IE team. That has absolutely nothing to do with .NET and rather to do with a lack of competition in the market at the time; Microsoft was stupid and rested on their laurels. But seeing as how a good half of .NET is geared towards web services and web applications (ASP.NET), that makes your assertion rather suspect at best.

Not true - they fact was that they were eager to get people off of browsers as a deployment platform because developers were no longer locked in to MS, and alternate browsers (read STANDARDS_COMPATIBLE) were already taking away market share. They saw the future - where people no longer needed windows for browsing the net or email; and no longer needed msoffice, and it scared them shitless.

Now we're at that "future" - where the #1 selling machines over $1k are Apples, the bottom-feeders are selling pcs with linux, and where a retail copy of the os costs more than a basic box. Not a good place to be in, and every lock-in attempt so far has failed. .NET, C#, MSOOXML.

Look at the internet -

• php, which is about as ugly a language as you can get, but it's the #1 web scripting language;
• javascript is the #1 browser scripting language;
• c/c++ is still the #1 compiled language;
• java and perl rule the byte-code roost;
• openoffice is taking away market share;
• companies are buying opensource database companies (oracle bought sleepycat (berkleydb), innobase; sun bought mysql)
• "once you go mac, you never go back" is true for more and more people
• lots of people "upgrading" from vista to xp;
• linux and osx are increasing in visibility and useability

... and microsoft is ... boring. Half a decade of labour, and instead of new vistas, it's more of the same, but slower. Their biggest competitor is their older software.

The only reason I stayed on Microsoft products foras long as I did was because of Borland. When they started tanking, I started looking to other platforms ... it wasn't like there was anything in Microsofts' stable of products that inspired me at the time. Their c++ compiler was notorious for being way behind the standards, as well as having poor performance. They wanted to lock in "net services", "soa", etc. - they were predicting that ALL browsers would be obsolete within 5 years, and they actually got some traction at the time (*grumble* in-house apps for financial institutions *grumble*), but in the end they failed to kill off the browser as a delivery platform.

As for "binary compatibility" - what are you going to do in 5 years, when the "patent pledges" terminate? You'll have investged all that time in code that you can't leverage ...

I'm betting by then we'll see some new developments - not just cross-compilers, but full-fledged cross-language compilers. For example, the ability to take java code, translate it into c/c++, and have it run natively. There were already "application binary compilers" years ago that could take a binary program, run it, dynamically translate all the calls from all the execution paths into source code, optimize it, then compile it. Pity nobody's done anything about it in a couple of decades because of copyright/disassembly issues - we could have all these apps written in whatever language you wanted, then have native code versions for the platform of your choice.

Not *that* would be exciting!

Awwwe yeah...

[Anonymous Coward]

Indemnify me, baby.

Ooh yeah, just like that.

Torrent link

[Anonymous Coward]

Folks, please download it via BitTorrent:
http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.0/iso/torrent/openSUSE-11.0-DVD-i386.torrent

I think most of the downloads are being done selfishly via HTTP or FTP, as I've been in the swarm for almost 1h and the speeds are quite low, there are only 60 peers.

Re:Torrent link

[Doddman]

my ISP doesn't like torrents Q_Q

Re:Torrent link

[Anonymous Coward]

And keep those riaa lawyers in business ?

Re:Torrent link

[Vectronic]

Bitch at them, depending on if they are watching you are not, and what you normally use BT for, at least in this case you can legitimately bitch because its legal, then call again from your cell, then from a friends place, etc...

And for curiosity sake, which ISP?

Re:Torrent link

[Ilgaz]

If my ISP prevented me from downloading a GNU ISO, I would use my last 4 remaining hours with them to search for another ISP and change to it rather than hitting a busy FTP server.

Not theoretically speaking, I gave up my Cable ISP when they refused to update my DOCSIS modem firmware. It took 4 hours to order a US Robotics DSL modem and open account on a DSL provider.

Re:Torrent link

[Doddman]

I have no clue. I'm at work right now, but when I get home I'll see.

Re:Torrent link

[Vectronic]

Well as of right now (see posting time), it has 2440 Peers, 200 or so of which im connected to, and 150 Seeds, but only 20 connected.
Going at about 180 down, 35 up (limited, cause my upload is only 512kbits)

Grew by about 250 peers, just while typing that...

Re:Torrent link

[RiotingPacifist]

your doing it wrong.
*encrypt your conections,
*keep your number of connections limited
*dont upload more than (find the ISPs throttle spot here)kb/s

and you should be fine

Re:Torrent link

[Anonymous Coward]

Snagging the Gnome Live CD here: http://download.opensuse.org/distribution/11.0/iso/torrent/openSUSE-11.0-GNOME-LiveCD-i386.torrent and my upload is going twice as fast as my download. Rather slowly at that. Mediocre DSL but never been this bad on torrent before. Seeds please.

Re:Torrent link

[Anonymous Coward]

So, you selfishly promote the torrent from which you are downloading? :-P

SuSE ...

[Anonymous Coward]

The SuSE distribution is a pile of steaming crap. Just looking at their kernel source gives me the creeps, hundreds of patches, with every second one containing obvious bugs. No wonder they lost every half way competent developer during the past two years.

Re:SuSE ...

[PReDiToR]

preditor@<mybox>:~> uname -a
Linux <mybox> 2.6.25.7-PReDiToR #1 Thu Jun 19 04:44:46 BST 2008 i686 athlon i386 GNU/Linux

Don't like the openSUSE kernel? Don't use it.

Just like that.

screen shots

[linuxbeta]

http://www.thecodingstudio.com/opensource/linux/screenshots/index.php?linux_distribution_sm=openSUSE%2011.0

New Era?

[f0ad001]

The only way SUSE will start a new era is if they dump Microsoft as a partner.

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

I use OS X as my only OS for years and when I read "OpenSUSE released", I immediately think about possible inclusion of Mono and Silverlight clone (whatever they call) in standard installation.

While it could be my evil way of thinking, it is certainly a very serious image problem for SUSE.

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

Yea, because by running OSX, you're clearly a saint when it comes to free vs proprietary software.

Re:New Era?

[RiotingPacifist]

yeah! damm them for producing an opensource product to give users the same functionality as windows users!!!

Re:New Era?

[jav1231]

For me its a matter of good and evil. Microsoft is not a good company.

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

neither is Apple, or have you forgotten that?

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

Well, functionality?

Lets see... Nokia just shipped "Nokia Maps Downloader" application which is not absolutely photoshop class complex application. It is coded in .NET 3.0 . Where is the Linux version so people having same functionality as Windows will run?

Look to REAL WORLD, not some Mono blogs or Mono clone coders friends applications who are hosted at Novell themselves.

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

I didn't see Apple buying out companies or sold out developers to inject their patented code/spec traps to Linux distros. I didn't see Apple spreading FUD about their "possible patent infringements" on any OS too. Apple shipped the first ever GUI Desktop back in 1980s compared to MS in 1995. Guess how many patents they have on GUI, end user interaction. Did you hear them spreading FUD about Linux?

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell me why that deal matters exactly? Because Microsoft gave them money? Because you can read into the agreement things that aren't there (admission that Microsoft owns the patents to some GPL code). They gave up nothing, they give a lot back to the linux community, they provide the best packaging for KDE (in fact i'd say they're the de facto KDE distribution). This bitterness towards them needs to stop, they easily give the linux community as much as the Ubuntu project does.

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

If it doesn't work under Mono, then either it requires native (as in, not .NET) libraries or else there is a bug in Mono.

If it's a bug in Mono, submit bug reports.

I have a feeling, though, that you simply haven't even tried running this app under Mono and are just searching for an excuse to bash the Mono project.

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

If something is coded in a true multiplatform framework, it ships on _every_ platform that Framework supports. Mono gang is just being abused by Microsoft to claim their junk is multiplatform.

Want to see a multi platform framework? http://azureus.sourceforge.net/

If Nokia had brain to use a true multiplatform framework, that "Maps downloader" could work inside ANY BROWSER of ANY OS. It is so sad that MS manages to trap people even in age of 2008. Of course, some must be clever and get paid for it. I am worried about the actual naive ones thinking MS would produce or let produce anything equal to their pyramid scheme named Windows.

Re:New Era?

[grommit]

openSUSE != Novell

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple made a big stink about patents a number of years ago wrt spring-loaded folders in the Nautilus file manager.

Apple has also purposely broken the iPod database so that Free Software iPod software broke after the update.

Apple also have a similar deal with Microsoft as Novell has.

I know, I know... "Apple shiny. Me like shiny" makes it all better, right? Whatever.

Re:New Era?

[fejjie]

As was already mentioned earlier in this thread, if Nokia's software uses native (rather than managed) libraries to build their .NET 3.0 program, then they clearly didn't care about it being cross-platform.

If they built it purely in managed code and it doesn't work under Mono, then it is just a bug in Mono - file a bug so that we can fix it.

No need to insult us.

Re:New Era?

[jav1231]

Ah but they're not evil!

Re:New Era?

[f0ad001]

openSuSE does equal Novell.

Novell SuSE is the commercial OS that Novell sells while openSuSE is the community edition. Both brought to you by...you guessed it, Novell.
http://www.opensuse.org/

openSuSE is the test bed for new packages and configuration. Once vetted, those changes are moved upstream into Novell SuSE proper.

This is exactly the same way Fedora and RedHat work.

Re:New Era?

[FishWithAHammer]

.NET 3.0 isn't supported by Mono yet. Hence the problem, probably.

Re:New Era?

[FishWithAHammer]

I would say that they give a lot more than the Ubuntu project.

Re:New Era?

[Anarke_Incarnate]

They give MORE than Ubuntu does. Ubuntu works off of the hard work of the Debian team and enhances UI look and feel. The underpinnings are worked on the Debian and the kernel hackers, et al. Novell is one of the biggest contributers to the kernel, Gnome, KDE and.... THEY are part of the Open Invention Network, who strive to PROTECT F/OSS users from patents.

Re:New Era?

[Dog-Cow]

Apple may make a big stink about patents, but they actually point to the patents they hold. MS just handwaves and spreads FUD.

Only an Apple hater would think Apple would purposefully expend developer time just to break an open source project that undoubtedly sold more iPods.

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

Now I see how the modding works...
Bash Linux and you get sent to -1 hell.
Bash Apple and you're praised 'Insightful'

Linux rulez! Mac sux.

Re:New Era?

[rathaven]

Apple made a similar deal? Last I heard they were part owned by MS but my info is probably a while out of date...

Re:New Era?

[rathaven]

I'd mod you up for talking sense but your too much of a coward...

Re:New Era?

[rathaven]

Just because people learnt to program in the school of Microsoft Development Environments surely shouldn't mean that we shouldn't support their efforts to look at other platforms and look at moving in other directions. What are you trying to do - lock people into a Microsoft platform?

Re:New Era?

[rathaven]

Or they only had programmers who understood how to work on a Microsoft platform and this is their attempt at making it cross platform... Lets face it, not everyone understands the platforms they are programming for to make software cross platform.

Re:New Era?

[Gavagai80]

If I thought that "evil" way, I'd download it -- I'd love to get Moonlight in the standard installation, since it's so hard to install otherwise. As for mono, almost any gnome distro includes it.

As it is, though, I don't believe opensuse offers any special microsoft perks so I'll stick with kubuntu.

Re:New Era?

[RiotingPacifist]

Their program actually has to run on a lightweight machine, have you seen azures recently? Im not saying all java programs suck, but i do tend to avoid them as:
1) they never integrate into you interface (i run KDE and even GTK fit in better than SWT)
2) they tend to eat all your ram
3) generally arnt that responsive (for me)
Ill be honest, ive not tried mono apps, but competition is good.

Sure its not prefect but something is better than nothing, release early and often and all that. Id rather have some functionality open (moonlight, mono), than all the functionality closed (adobe buggy as hell flash), but maybe that's just me and my crazy radeon driver ways.

Re:New Era?

[Anonymous Coward]

If something is coded in a true multiplatform framework, it ships on _every_ platform that Framework supports. Mono gang is just being abused by Microsoft to claim their junk is multiplatform. This is a common misconception. .NET isn't cross-platform, it never was, chances are it never will be. Mono, however, IS cross-platform.

The thing is apps written for .NET won't magically work on Mono (some do, however) because they're writting using parts of .NET which aren't implimented in Mono. A Mono app, however will run not only on Mono, but also on .NET.

No, they aren't being used my MS to say that .NET is cross-platform. .NET isn't cross-platform, and as far as I know, MS never advertized it as being so. You want your app to be cross platform, you write it in Mono, not on .NET. And really, that's exactly what MS wants, right? Bollocks.

Further, weather or not an arbitrary package build on a cross-platform framework actually ships on every platform the framework support really isn't a testament to the framework's cross-platformness. It's a testament to the author wanting said package to run on all platforms supported by the framework.

Azureus doesn't ship on every platform Java supports by virtue of being written in Java. They bother making a release for each supported platform because they intended for the pasckage to be availible on said platforms. It's just a really stupid argument, besides, I see a package for azureus expressly for windows/mac/linux/linx64, but where's the package expressly for Solaris? Given that java runs on Solaris (and was initially designed to run on Solaris, no less!), by your reasoning, Java isn't a real cross-platform framework, either.

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

Hear this. Their program installs on Windows XP SP3 in 1 straight hour. Guess why? I run Windows XP Sp3 inside Virtual PC 7 under PPC just to get 3-4 files to a memory card. Yes, that is what it does. Nothing more.

On Azureus. it never uses more than 70 mb of RAM even while I have higher than average cache etc. settings.

Nokia Maps signed Applet inside browser, gets those 3-4 files user selects and puts them into already mounted filesystem. It is all. If they tie it to Net 3.0 which doesn't exist on anything rather than windows, I would recommend Nokia to start an internal investigation of that developer team.

Take a guess about the high end smart phones and what OS/Device the owners of those devices run.

That Adobe you mention releases exact same version of Flash, AIR Framework, Professional tools to 2-3 OS having nothing to do with each other. At least they don't use puppets claiming to serve open source community.

Re:New Era?

[Ilgaz]

I have picked Nokia Maps downloader on purpose since it as a 22 MB download results in 70-80 MB .NET 3.0 download which (forget Linux!) doesn't even exist on Windows 2000. The Windows 2000 which you can happily run Java 6 even faster thanks to the less bulk of XP/Vista.

Nobody sees that scheme of Microsoft? If someone at Nokia finally figures their high end customers who owns $400+ smartphones (that can run Maps) doesn't give a shit to how cheap Windows PC is and near 30% of them runs Mac OS X, what is needed? rm -rf NokiaMaps and start from strach since there is no way to run .NET 3 on OS X.

It is actually a pyramid scheme like thing.

Re:New Era?

[yahyamf]

You can download maps manually from here

I was among many users who were having trouble displaying maps loaded by MapsLoader. Some kind person on the Nokia forums pointed me to that page and explained how to load the maps manually.

Unfortunately I did not know about this when I took my $400 E61i to a US trip. The phone would only load maps from the network, and ignore those on the card because MapsLoader did not load the map data right. I ended up wasting my 1 month navigation subscription and ended up paying $10/day for a GPS device when renting cars.

I posted that link above along with instructions to load maps on Nokia's forums, and one the the official Nokia mods deleted my post with the following message:

"Hello, We have removed your post that had a link to downloading Nokia Maps with out using Nokia Map loader. This is not an approved method. The only method approved to do so is by using Nokia Map loader. Kind Regards"

No thanks.

[Anonymous Coward]

Still no ZFS, still no dtrace. Thanks, but no thanks.

Re:No thanks.

[Kennon]

Between their patent problems and GPL incompatibility Sun can keep them. In fact we can write that on Sun's tombstone. Here lies a really cool OS that had ZFS and dtrace.

Re:No thanks.

[rathaven]

Tis a shame tho' - ZFS and dtrace are nice...

Justin

[Anonymous Coward]

The latest SUSE is impressive, I'll run this over Fedora or Ubuntu any day. As for the Microsoft deal, LET IT GO. SUSE Linux is actually more appealing to most businesses now despite what the non-paying users are crying about.

Re:Justin

[catscan2000]

At the risk of being labeled a troll, I typically tell colleagues who ask about the Microsoft deal that Apple has numerous patent and other technology licensing agreements with Microsoft, and yet we don't see a groundswell of people on Slashdot calling Apple on the carpet for their Microsoft agreements.

In response, I've heard that the difference is that Apple doesn't pretend to be fully open-source whereas Novell does to an extent, though Apple does have an open-source kernel and other bits in addition to a proprietary system. Similarly, Novell's SuSE (not openSuSE) is a product that users typically need to pay for. From a high-level view, this looks like both companies offer a proprietary system as well as an open-source subset of that proprietary system.

As a result -- at least, from that simplification of the issue -- I think that anti-SuSE people on Slashdot are treating Novell unfairly versus Apple. I'm not a fan of the Microsoft deal, either, but I do like openSuSE on technical and, especially, usability grounds, and that is why I both advocate for and use it both at home and at work.

Now I'm off to download the latest version :-)

(there goes my karma, though :-(. Please be nice!)

Re:Justin

[nitio]

I wish I could mod you up. You, sir, have obviously stated some very crucial information regarding how fanboyism works. Congratulations!

Re:Justin

[Ilgaz]

Apple's users doesn't like Microsoft OS but some good things from Microsoft such as Office package is chart topper on Amazon Top 10 software list. Don't get fooled by Slashdot comments, see the actual download numbers on general user profile sites.

Microsoft and Apple relations have nothing to do with Novell and Microsoft partnership. For example, Apple sees the web developers and others insist on using Verdana etc. fonts. They PAY to Microsoft to get those fonts while Microsoft pays them for Truetype which is an Apple invention. Or you can see Microsoft being responsible for thousands of Apple G5 Workstation sales thanks to XBox 360 SDK and their media guys. It is a healthy relationship with well planned borders.

Novell on other hand was almost on verge of crashing financially before dealing with Microsoft and does things which are never fit to Linux in any sense. Setting up a relationship with the company who spends billions for their own wannabe Java (.NET) to make sure companies stay with their own buggy, badly architecture OS and hiring its clone author as CTO allowing him to post "XBox 360 is great", "MS OOXML is great" type junk doesn't help their image at all.

Re:Justin

[Anonymous Coward]

I need to take you out, because you are too lethal to be posting here.

You are thinking cyber war here if you are thinking that there are agreements. You are trying to expose things and business tactics that shouldn't be discussed.

Why do you want an open source kernel with an Apple? Or a Vista for that matter?

Don't you already have the latest version.

Re:Justin

[norminator]

I tried the beta a few weeks ago, and while I realize that a beta is a beta, and therefore subject to bugs, I have a hard time understanding why my no-frills Logitech USB mouse, which works with every other distribution of Linux or version of Windows that I've used in the past 5 years, would not work with the Open Suse beta.

That, and the network manager kept prompting me for my WEP key repeatedly, even when I had the hard switch for my wireless turned off.

And I couldn't stand the graphical package manager.

And I think the "slab" menu is a pain in the butt.

Re:Justin

[houghi]

In response, I've heard that the difference is that Apple doesn't pretend to be fully open-source whereas Novell does to an extent,

Indeed not all from Novell is open. However they are working hard to do so. They have the build service, that you can use and/or download so that you can make your own distribution, if you so desire.
Where Redhat tried to block CentOS, Novell actively helps people to make their own openSUSE and SUSE based distribution.

Also openSUSE make a clear difference between OSS and things that are NON-OSS. It is then up to the user to decide wether you want to install it or not.

Novell has opend a lot of their code already. Indeed not yet everything. However they are working on that as well.

Re:Justin

[Just Some Guy]

I typically tell colleagues who ask about the Microsoft deal that Apple has numerous patent and other technology licensing agreements with Microsoft, and yet we don't see a groundswell of people on Slashdot calling Apple on the carpet for their Microsoft agreements.

I can't speak for everyone, but I couldn't care less if Apple uses MS patented or copyrighted code in their OS. I mind a whole hell of a lot if Novell accidentally managed to sneak some in, polluting my Ubuntu kernel with legal issues that I have no desire to be involved with.

Re:Justin

[JonJ]

Could you please back up your claims of Red Hat trying to stop CentOS with some facts? And in related news, Red Hat is opening Red Hat Network. :) http://www.linuxworld.com/news/2008/061808-red-hat-network-to-be.html

Re:Justin

[mooreti1]

I completely agree. The M$/Novell technical agreement is much less of a big deal than the community makes it out to be. So what if they have a patent agreement? It wasn't selling out since it never concerned the kernel, just the utilities used in Linux. That, and M$ has yet to prove any patent violations concerning Linux, which has always led me to believe that it touched more on the directory services issues.

Re:Justin

[FishWithAHammer]

And people complain about Microsoft's Linux FUD, but they're cool with Novell FUD? That's funny.

Re:Justin

[neurovish]

Does Microsoft sell the technology that apple licenses directly? On a recent sales call for SLES, the Microsoft guy did all the talking, and in the quote we received was directly from Microsoft...not Novell or another reseller. The guy who was on the line from Novell hardly said anything.

Personally, I don't really care about Novell's Microsoft deal either way, because their product offerings were inferior to begin with.

Re:Justin

[PianoMan8]

The agreement between Apple and MS is between two private, proprietary companies.

The difference is that Microsoft has openly been sabre rattling and spreading FUD that they will sue Linux users over intellectual property that is supposedly protected in SuSE due to this agreement. By entering into the agreement, Novell has (rightly or wrongly) lent credibility to these claims. This hurts community as a whole.

That's a big distinction.

Re:Justin

[vux984]

At the risk of being labeled a troll, I typically tell colleagues who ask about the Microsoft deal that Apple has numerous patent and other technology licensing agreements with Microsoft, and yet we don't see a groundswell of people on Slashdot calling Apple on the carpet for their Microsoft agreements.

OSX is a proprietary OS that runs on top of a BSD foundation and the fact that it uses OSS parts is irrelevant. Apple can do what it wants with those parts with our blessing. Apple is using them the way they were intended to be used.

The Apple patent agreements are nothing more than regular old patent agreements between corporations.

SuSE is GPL. The contentious Novell-Microsoft patent deal was a blatant attempt to do an end run around the GPL with a 'belt-and-suspenders' FUD attack.

There is NO comparison between them.

Re:Justin

[Anonymous Coward]

Where Redhat tried to block CentOS, Novell actively helps people to make their own openSUSE and SUSE based distribution. Huh? How does Red Hat try to block CentOS? The only requirement Red Hat has on the RHEL derivatives is to not use the Red Hat trademark. All source packages for RHEL are published on Red Hat's FTP server for anyone to download. Fedora-based distributions are actively encouraged. Furthermore, all of Fedora infrastructure (including the build-system and update-system) are completely free software.

Worth switching from Fedora?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someome say whether it is worth switcing to openSUSE from Fedora?

I am planning to give it a try, because Fedora seems too "bleeding edge" for me. I just want a system that works fine and can be frozen in that state.

With Fedora I have occasional issues like different fonts out of the blue, or things working gradually slower if I keep updating the system with yum.

Re:Worth switching from Fedora?

[sjwest]

You can clear your yum directories (been a while since we ran fc distro). I'd stick with fedora and if the bleeding edge gets too much think about moving to debian.

Re:Worth switching from Fedora?

[Kennon]

OpenSUSE 11 is very similar to Fedora 9 in that respect. If you want free I would recommend Debian or Ubuntu 6.06 LTS. If you've got $50 laying around I would strongly recommend SUSE Linux Enterprise Desktop 10 SP2 as it is the most stable and feature rich desktop distro IMHO, especially if you are running it along side Windows workstations or servers.

Re:Worth switching from Fedora?

[Anonymous Coward]

Can someome say whether it is worth switcing to openSUSE from Fedora? It depends. Do you like a distro that's clearly focused on providing a good desktop experience "out of the box" or are you the type of person who enjoying spending all of their time tweaking settings?

If you want a good experience "out of the box" then you should be using OpenSUSE or Ubuntu.

If you want to have to spend a significant amount of time tweaking things then use Fedora. Also, you can still do all of the tweaking with OpenSUSE and Ubuntu. The main difference is things are quite nice by default.

Plus, OpenSUSE and Ubuntu are more conservative with updates. Breakage isn't common like it is with Fedora and the repositories contain more software (ie, no RPMForge/Livna!). Ubuntu's package selection, however, dwarfs every other distribution (well, any that aren't Debian or Debian/Ubuntu derived).

With Fedora I have occasional issues like different fonts out of the blue, or things working gradually slower if I keep updating the system with yum. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu both default to beautiful fonts unlike Fedora's hideous looking fonts. OpenSUSE and Ubuntu do not do a Windows-like slowdown.

Re:Worth switching from Fedora?

[JonJ]

Or, if you're comfortable i Red Hat-land, CentOS.

Re:Worth switching from Fedora?

[postmortem]

SUSE and fedora are RPM based distros, meaning most patches and software installation by supplied tools rely on and work best with RPM files. SUSE 10.0 had really bad font rendering, as in disabling ClearType-like font smoothing because "it might be Microsoft IP". Most if not all Linux distros suck when it comes to fonts anyway.

SuSE's firewall is best

[Anonymous Coward]

I've used all three (U, F, & S) and keep going back to SuSE because of the SuSEfirewall2 configuration feature. It gives you one straightforward (fairly) easy to understand text config file that governs how the iptables rules get set up.

The Yast system manager is pretty good too, especially the software management section, but then again Ubuntu's Synaptic and apt-get from Debian totally rocks too! I'd love to have OpenSuSE with both Yast and Synaptic together, but I'm too lazy to try to install the Debian tools into SuSE so I'll just use whatever software manager that comes with whatever distro I'm presently using.

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[morgan_greywolf]

I've used all three (U, F, & S) and keep going back to SuSE because of the SuSEfirewall2 configuration feature. It gives you one straightforward (fairly) easy to understand text config file that governs how the iptables rules get set up.

Bah. Back when I started building Linux firewalls, we didn't have fancy firewall building scripts or GUIs. We had to know what we were doing with iptables and grok the difference between say, REJECTing a packet and DROPing a packet.

So iptables is iptables is iptables to me.

You kids and your fancy configurators.

Now get off of my lawn!

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[setagllib]

I only started Linux around 2.4.16 or so, and I learned iptables properly. It's not even hard if you understand networking itself. Now I just have a few general scripts I deploy when I want, including a very simple one just for client deployments to only allow SSH as incoming.

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[clampolo]

I've used all three (U, F, & S) and keep going back to SuSE because of the SuSEfirewall2 configuration feature. It gives you one straightforward (fairly) easy to understand text config file that governs how the iptables rules get set up.

Not sure if it is what you are looking for, but FireStarter is a pretty easy way to configure you iptables.

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[drinkypoo]

I had that same situation too. But I got tired of that crap. Now I use fwbuilder, which is really very nice. Once you get used to its extremely counterintuitive and occasionally annoying GUI (it likes to jump around the tree instead of leaving it the hell alone so that you can see the things you want, other than that it's OK) it makes it a joy to configure firewalls - and it supports a number of different types of them, too. For my desktop system I usually just use firestarter, but for an appliance fwbuilder is king. It's just tedious to set up rules for logging etc as nice as those that it will assemble.

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[morgan_greywolf]

Actually, I have used fwbuilder, and I agree that it's very nice. But nothing beats the flexibility of a hand-tooled iptables script. I tried to use fwbuilder for some firewalls I had built at one place I worked and released it just didn't give me what I wanted.

Mind you what I wanted involved things like injecting latency on purpose based on certain route paths but not on others, but you get the idea. These were test routers used to simulate conditions for software performance and scalability testing.

Re:SuSE's firewall is best

[pnutjam]

I really like that feature in SUSE also, but I get similar functionality by loading webmin on my conssole Ubuntu server.

All those discs?

[pacroon]

When I tried SuSe, I remember I was forced to install everything, totaling about 8 CD's of data, without the possibility to skip everything but the basics, and just get the bits and parts you needed later online, like a Debian netinstall. Is this still the case? If so, my answer to the question about a new Ubuntu or Fedora, I would clearly say no.

Re:All those discs?

[X0563511]

No, you can choose Gnome, KDE3, KDE4, Minimal, and Command-Line. You can also manually select/deselect packages that will be installed. Hell, you can even add other media/repositories for use at that point. (think of actually using aptitude when installing debian/ubuntu, and having the debian-multimedia repo available at initial install)

Re:All those discs?

[norminator]

Nowadays, distros like this will use one DVD image instead of a bunch of CD images. If you'd actually go to the download page, you'd see that there are options for
1) a single live CD, for either KDE or Gnome,
2) a DVD, or
3) a network install

Re:All those discs?

[SpooForBrains]

That has never been the case, to my knowledge. Certainly since 7.2 (when I started using it).

No new era

[Kingston]

If you are a fan of SUSE with it's rather fat and full distribution and useful YaST tool, you have probably been looking forward to this.
For everyone else the momentum is with Ubuntu or Fedora and their derivatives. Would anyone who is not already a SUSE / openSUSE fan take much notice of this distribution tainted as it is by association with Microsoft.

Re:No new era

[Dog-Cow]

Probably because most people (slash-shitters excepted) don't consider MS a "taint".

Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[bestinshow]

Instead of having the typical top and bottom panel arrangement, OpenSUSE sticks with a single panel along the bottom of the screen, combining the application launcher with the taskbar and notification areas. HURRAH! Finally. I hate that top menu bar in Ubuntu, it looks so amateurish with those Firefox/Mail/Help icons rammed up against each other.

Shame the review didn't use KDE, as that's the good point about SUSE as far as I am concerned.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Anonymous Coward]

You do know you can move and/or remove the annoying (to you) icons, don't you?

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[f0ad001]

I'm not sure I see your point about KDE on SuSE. Most major distros give you the option of installing Gnome or KDE or both.

Canonical provides Ubuntu (Gnome) and Kubuntu (KDE) versions of their distro. With the option to install the other desktop environment via apt-get.

SuSE isn't doing anything that the other major distros aren't except partnering with an anchor.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[ReformedGeek1978]

So get rid of the menu bar. The benefit of having 2 of them is the taskbar/clock/launchers etc arent all squished together

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Anonymous Coward]

Kubuntu's packaging of KDE absolutely sucks compared to SuSE.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, I usu ubuntu (xubuntu actually) and it was easy enough for me to switch to a single bar along the bottom of the screen. Were you unable to figure this out?

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Foofoobar]

You do realize you can install KDE in Ubuntu right? I haven't ever used the Gnome desktop in Ubuntu and have been using Ubuntu for years. Though I do admit I use the Gnome tools... until they crash and die.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[bestinshow]

The point was that the out of the box configuration is minging and amateurish, even though they've clearly put a lot of work into it overall. SUSE was always a KDE centric distribution, historically, so the review using Gnome was also a bit weird, although good to see that its not a second rate citizen.

I'm starting to think that with Compiz, there shouldn't even need to be menu bars, start buttons, taskbars. Hit the Windows key on the keyboard (yeah, it should be a penguin) and a launcher / taskswitch layer appears like Dashboard on Mac OS X. So you have the complete desktop for your apps, and a full-screen always-available overlay instantly available for launching apps (start menu) with mini-expose integrated (or mini-alt-tab, or a large taskbar area).

Things like the clock and status bar can be relegated to a desktop widget that you can float or put anywhere.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Grishnakh]

Shame the review didn't use KDE, as that's the good point about SUSE as far as I am concerned.

KDE is a good point in Kubuntu too.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Anonymous Coward]

its enough to bring a tear to my eye - even here, people complaining about the initial layout of a linux distro's gui!

Customise it to how you like it, then if you really must remaster a CD/DVD to preserve it?

Incidentally I am going to install this version of SuSe!

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[drinkypoo]

I use Ubuntu with no gnome-panels. I have an OSXish dock (avant-window-navigator) and a bunch of compiz functionality to get me through. Who needs a bunch of panels? I've also got a widgets layer (ala compiz) with google gadgets and gdesklets to fill any functionality I'm missing, and I use trayer to provide a notification area.

Re:Yay, no Gnome top-menu

[Anonymous Coward]

I can run either Gnome or KDE with Ubuntu 7.10, and choose at login.
One can move the icons around on the Gnome toolbar, and even put them in "drawers" if there are too many. I got used to the top menu bar quickly, and tend to boot up into Gnome, as it gets to the desktop quicker than KDE.
I also use "hibernate" when shutting down, so the desktop "pops up" rather quickly.
I can run Firefox 3 on Ubuntu 7.10, something that I can't do with any Knoppix 3.4 thru 5.1

audais replay

[audai]

thank u for this information http://dj4ar.net/

why do you need a firewall

[RiotingPacifist]

I thought, unless your doing something stupid on a desktop or running a server chances are a linux box doesnt need a firewall (all your software is from a trusted source thats pointing out, and theres very little pointing outwards anyway)?

Re:why do you need a firewall

[Vectronic]

"I thought, ... chances are a linux box doesnt need a firewall"

Firewalls arent always used just for inbound attacks, what about using it as an adblocker, or maybe you only want certain computers in a network to communicate, or maybe you are just a little overly paranoid...

Besides, as Linux popularity grows, it will necessitate the need for more firewalls/security, especially with recent blunders with Flash, et al, there will be more of those aswell...

Re:why do you need a firewall

[setagllib]

Firewalls are 100% useless against Flash, which loads via outbound HTTP just like the rest of your web content. I recommend disabling Flash entirely or using an open source implementation like swfdec (which is only slightly more functional than just disabling Flash :P)

Re:why do you need a firewall

[Vectronic]

Yes, but say perhaps some malicious attacker used a vulnerability in something to enable something else, even if they still used typical FTP/HTTP ports you'd (should) notice if there is a bunch of traffic and all you are using is Pidgin or something.

Re:why do you need a firewall

[Vectronic]

Oh, and as for blocking flash... you can easily use your Firewall to block a certain IP/DNS that distributes Flash based Ads on a specific (black list) basis, there are a lot of things you may need/want to have Flash enabled for...

Re:why do you need a firewall

[Anonymous Coward]

These software firewalls are just GUIs to configure iptables, which is part of the kernel.

Re:why do you need a firewall

[Anarke_Incarnate]

BAH, Who needs a kernel when you can just direct program the EEPROM to do your bidding? Why bother with making things relate more towards how people think?

Re:why do you need a firewall

[RiotingPacifist]

Firewalls arent always used just for inbound attacks, "all your software is from a trusted source thats pointing out" and i prefer to prevent the malicious code running entirely using something like SElinux or apparmor

or maybe you only want certain computers in a network to communicate, or maybe you are just a little overly paranoid... "unless your doing something stupid on a desktop" pretty much covers that.

what about using it as an adblocker Well that's fine, but I dont really care about adds and you dont really need to block ads

As for the flash stuff, I prefer to keep flash off and enable it on a per site basis anyway, id just rather do this by GUI at browser level than have to edit my IPtables and restart my firewall everytime i want to view a new site.

Im not saying that a firewall is completely useless on Linux but for most people theres no real need for them.

Why people should stay away from it

[Anonymous Coward]

While it's not owned by Novell, it still makes easier the transition to the corporate SuSE, and we all know SuSE is now at least half-evil.
Therefore if one morning your boss says "let's try a Linux distro for a while", please, don't suggest OpenSuSE or when the evaluation period is over you will be forced to install the corporate one because it's the one you know better.

Before modding down, think about it. The same applies to development technologies: use Mono today and tomorrow there will be more reasons to move to Windows.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[catscan2000]

openSUSE doesn't have an evaluation period. Thus, there is no need to be forced to install anything else other than, perhaps, the next version of openSUSE after your installed version is eventually end-of-lifed.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[hawkinspeter]

What evaluation period? OpenSuSE is the community version - you must be confusing it with an evaluation of SLED or SLES. You can use openSuSE forever if you want (they'll only provide free patches for about 2 years though). I've been using the RC of openSuSE 11 and think it's an improvement on 10.3, but probably just an incremental improvement (unless you like KDE4). I've tried some other distros (fedora, ubuntu etc) but keep coming back to SuSE - it just feels more cohesive and I actually like the YaST tool (even though it is somewhat slow and bloated, it's a single point of administration).

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess I don't see any evil here.... You want linux, you need to install Oracle on your dev box without it not allowing you because it's not a supported linux. So you need red hat or suse. Sure, you might be able to somehow hack around this, doubtless people have, but you don't want to spend days figuring it out. You just want it to work.

Redhat sucks, and Suse sucks less. Hmm...

At home, or for a business you own, use what ever you want. Like FreeBSD! If you're an employee of FacelessCorp, feel lucky you're allowed to use Linux at all. SuSe will make running on your corporate network a much smoother experience than many (all?) other distros. Many things will just work, and since you probably don't administer your corporate network, that is what you NEED.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[SplatMan_DK]

and we all know SuSE is now at least half-evil. Would you care to explain WHY? I mean, really explain. With rational arguments - not emotional, religious or similar irrational explanations. Honestly, give me SOLID ARGUMENTS here. And perhaps a few examples. Did somebodys business close because of the MS/Novell deal? Did someone get sued? Did FOSS projects die? Did customers end up with fewer choices? What????
:-)

your boss says "let's try a Linux distro for a while", please, don't suggest OpenSuSE A good recommendation in a corporate setting is always based on a good business case. I would be happy to evaluate your arguments for not choosing SUSE for a company, if they are solid and based on rational arguments.

Untill then I will most certainly recommend SUSE if the business case supports it. And in some cases it will - no questions asked. Novell makes great cross-platform products, so if a company needs, say, a cluster of servers capable of running both J2EE and .NET, it would make a lot of sense comparing SUSE with MONO/JBOSS vs Windows 2008 with BEA (just an example, insert other similar server-cases here).

Or perhaps we could imagine a company wanting to convert their outdated XP clients with Linux clients in order to postpone hardware upgrades (which would be needed in order to migrate to Vista). Perhaps the ability to show webpages with Silverlight elements was an important criteria? What about browsers capable of showing PDF documents, MS Word documents, Flash content, etc? All these are cross-platform initiatives, and I honestly believe that Linux won't make in into the corporate environment without these.

I don't understand why some people think Novell and their projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while other cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good". I also fail to see why the same people often argue that IBM's investments in Open Source projects are "good" while Novells are "bad". The discussion about Microsoft/Linux/Novell needs to be elevated to a level where it is based on the same standard you would demand in other more scientific debates. Drop the emotional and irrational arguments. Give me facts and examples from real life.

Users and customers benefit from a free market. It gives them the widest range of products to choose from. Any community or company who is engaged in software projects which enhance portability and interconnectivity are "good" as far as I am concerned. Even more so when they are releases them under open source licenses - like MONO and Moonlight.

:-)
- Jesper

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[hasanen]

I was just like you , but when I used Ubuntu I found that there is no need for Yast when everything works just fine without touching any configuration utilities. But I might go back to SuSE when they stop using Mono in their system utilities , especially the ones in the startup !

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[Anonymous Coward]

(SuSE == half_evil)

Would you care to explain WHY? I mean, really explain. With rational arguments - not emotional, religious or similar irrational explanations. Because Microsoft has had a long history of fighting against Open Source using every tactics possble. Their agreement with Novell makes Novell not trustworthy in that context. I'm not saying Novell makes bad products or SuSE sucks, but simply there is a suspicious agreement between a company that produces Open Source Software and a different one which always fought against OSS.

Just for example, would you vote a politician who gets money from the opposite party?

I don't understand why some people think Novell and their projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while other cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good". I Probably because WINE doesn't try to make you embrace a closed source technology made in Redmond . There are excellent but Windows only apps out there and WINE provides a bridge to fill the gap (yes I know there are Wine APIs, still you aren't encouraged to use them to write Linux apps).
Samba does the same network-wise.
Mono, on the other hand, makes you rely on a Windows technology that will always have more support on the windows platform.

also fail to see why the same people often argue that IBM's investments in Open Source projects are "good" while Novells are "bad". Well, I happen top be one of those people who got to talk before some 50 IBM execs in 1997 or so, when they wanted to know more about it, so each of us (IBM contacted my local Linux Users Group) chose an argument then talked in front of them. Let me tell you one thing: while I was uncomfortable sourrounded by so many suits and security measures (armed guards, no photos, etc.) and some of them still weren't allowed to install Linux on their laptop when we offered to help (and they were execs!), which shows how bad the IBM corporate culture was and probably still is, the interest they showed was absolutely stunning. It was a fantastic experience, very very far from being called a cancer by Microsoft.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[FishWithAHammer]

use Mono today and tomorrow there will be more reasons to move to Windows. Oh, hell yeah. Because GTK# and QT# work great on Windows, right?

Get a clue before you start whining about OMG TEH MICROSOFTS. I understand that you have a retarded knee-jerk hatred of Microsoft. Carrying that over to Novell (who, might I add, went to bat against SCO--or have you already forgotten that?) because they support Mono, a tool for interoperability that doesn't suck nearly as much as Java, is amazingly retarded.

Novell's business is making systems talk to each other. They don't really care if those systems are closed-source, because people still use them.

You could just as easily look at it the other way: use Mono and there are fewer reasons to have Windows around, because the majority of .NET apps run under Mono.

I don't understand why Mono is TEH EVIL but WINE and Samba are OK. It makes no fucking sense. Is it because people like Miguel--gasp!--don't view Microsoft as enemies? Because they--GASP!--are willing to work with other people, regardless of what you as a FOSStard think?

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[hawkinspeter]

I tried ubuntu, kubuntu and xubuntu and really wanted to like them, but I found it trickier to do some of the network configuration that is really easy with YaST. e.g. I couldn't find how to set up a system-wide proxy without creating a bash_profile to set the variables.

There were some other minor issues as well, not show-stoppers, but I've just got very used to the SuSE distributions (I've been using them since version 7 and use SLES for running oracle at work).

I was most impressed by the xubuntu desktop (uses xfce), but it had some reliability issues after running for a few days. When the next version of Ubuntu comes around, I'll give it another go and see if I can get used to it.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[Kingrames]

How is it even possible to prove someone "evil" with just logic?

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[rwxrwx]

Did someone get sued? well actually just SCO , but that doesn't count.

Re:Why people should stay away from it

[j_sp_r]

They done that in 10.3 already. No more zmd crap luckily, and 11 is nice!

It may well be a step backward for me

[Stu101]

I downloaded the last beta download (ie not release code) and the experience was quite shocking.

I run 10.3 on my 2GB Thinkpad T60p and its rock solid. Now I tried 11 and it was like going from XP to Vista. Slow as anything and it kept crashing badly, on a machine that is Suse certified.

I may download and try the new version but a work to the wise, make sure your backups are good.

However if you are wanting to have a mess around with Xen, its now built right in, so its not all bad.

Re:It may well be a step backward for me

[sidnelson13]

I downloaded the last beta download (ie not release code) and the experience was quite shocking.

Dude, that's why they call it a BETA version. They are early snapshots of the development version (Factory), and they are shipped with a very clear warning statement.

Be more sensitive, give it a try.

yuo fail 1t

[Anonymous Coward]

AMERICA) 8ight be

Oh boy, KDE 4

[ninevoltz]

I see it also contains the dreadful piece of crap that is the current KDE 4. I used Fedora 9 for three days before I had to wipe my drive and go back to Fedora 8. Kernel 2.6.25/26 are pieces of shit too. Super slow, and constantly freezing my system. Plus KDE is missing so many important features that it is almost completely useless. I'll pass, thank you.

Re:Oh boy, KDE 4

[Anonymous Coward]

You're right about KDE 4.0. They (KDE) have said already that they're not expecting it to be ready for general desktop acceptance until 4.1, which is just over a month down the road. I'm looking forward to trying it, but from what I've seen, its really not ready yet.

I've been a Gnome user for a while and have wanted to give KDE a second chance with KDE4, but so far there have just been disappointments. I'll try it again when Kubuntu 8.10 is released. By then 4.1.3 should be out and hopefully things will be alittle smoother.

Re:Oh boy, KDE 4

[andrewd18]

Sorry, that argument doesn't fly. The installer asks if you want Gnome 2.22, KDE 3.5.9, or KDE 4.0.4, right? You get to pick, it's not like you're locked into using KDE 4.

Re:Oh boy, KDE 4

[FishWithAHammer]

I'm a KDE 3.5 user. I don't have any faith that Seigo and the rest of the KDE devs, who have apparently gone entirely incompetent between KDE3 and KDE4, will pull off anything useful.

SUSE has more Enterprise-focus

[SplatMan_DK]

Competition between major distros doesn't really exist, because all features are available for all distros. While some may argue that SUSE is bad as a matter of principle (because of their deal wil Microsoft, which secured them a truckload of cash), it is my experience that SUSE has more focus on Enterprise needs than most other distros.

So yes - perhaps all features are available for all distros. But not all are actually implemented/moved to another distro. Most corporate users like the way YAST (packet manager) is working, and they also enjoy some of the built-in features for central management and integration with infrastructure products widely used in Enterprises.

Simply put: SUSE has more focus on Enterprise needs, and less focus on whistles and bells (in GUI and elsewhere). An even though many of these features COULD be moved/ported to other distros, they are not. For the simple reasons that users of these distros are not needing or requesting them.

On the other hand distros like Ubuntu has a much nicer appeal to consumer-type end-users. It looks more familiar to them , than SUSE and has a more appealing look'n'feel.

- Jesper

Re:SUSE has more Enterprise-focus

[YeeHaW_Jelte]

Hmmm ... yes our production servers are SLES machines, but speaking for my laptop and enterprise focus ... OpenSuSE 10.3 would not allow me to connect to a VPN via a cisco PIX (pptp) whilst it was no problem at all with Ubuntu.

A crusade against cross-platform initiatives?

[SplatMan_DK]

One basic question. Is Mono and Moonlight a selected by default option or not? I can't say for SUSE 11, but for 10.x neither Mono or Moonlight was installed by default. They were available through the YAST package manager.

I would use original XP or Vista rather than a thing which is made by their cloning partners. At least they are original.
It is sad that you come to such a conclusion without at least evaluating the technical potential of these projects, and perhaps Novells reasons for engaging in them. It sounds almost like you are on a personal crusade against commercial vendors who are in the cross-platform / portability business.

Novell has made it its core business to connect technologies which are for different reasons not already connected. And in most of these cases, the products they connect are either all commercial or a mixture of (F)OSS and classic closed-source commercial software.

While you may disagree with their goals, and be almost religiously in opposition of them, I think they do more good than bad. They ultimately ensure that the customer/consumer has a wider choice in products and technologies, and they are IMHO they key to breaking the monopolistic world domination which certain vendors enjoy.

I frankly don't see why Novells projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while similar cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good". I think the end user should have the widest range of products to choose from, and any company or community who is engaged in projects which enhance portability and interconnectivity are "good". Especially when they release them under open source licenses - like Novell does.

- Jesper

Re:A crusade against cross-platform initiatives?

[drinkypoo]

I frankly don't see why Novells projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while similar cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good".

I don't give a damn either way, but the argument could be made that Windows and SMB are already entrenched, thus Wine and Samba are not helping Microsoft, but while .NET has made significant inroads it's not the champion or anything and Silverlight is so far more or less irrelevant, so arguably providing interoperability for those technologies assists Microsoft. I'm not saying I necessarily believe it, but that's the argument.

You might further argue that Novell's versions of these technologies actually suck, and that they exist only to allow Microsoft to claim that alternatives are out there, but you'd have to cook up some big conspiracy theory to justify that one, and extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof. Unless Miguel is sleeping on a big bed of money, I doubt this explanation.

Suse.

[GargamelSpaceman]

I just downloaded the 10.3 SuSe because I'm running a Suse 9.x that I've had for years. I didn't wait for 11.0 because I don't want a buggy system for use at work. I may get 11.x where x > 0 someday. The only reason I'm upgrading is because I never downloaded the FULL 9.x CDs, and they seem to have shut off the Yast servers for 9.x SuSes - there are a few things that I want to install that require packages that I don't want to install myself but instead want to *have installed* by Yast. I only downloaded a 1 CD image and have been using Yast to get packages as needed. I downloaded the 10.3 DVD though which I'll be using for 10.3 I'd be suprised if it made you install EVERYTHING in one go.

Should we also dump reality? Or competition?

[SplatMan_DK]

The only way SUSE will start a new era is if they dump Microsoft as a partner. I respectfully disagree. I know many people have an almost religious crusade against Microsoft any company they are associated with - but I think there is a wider consideration which many people forget. Novells core business is connecting technologies which are for different reasons not already connected. And for the most part the products they connect are a mixture of (F)OSS and classic closed-source commercial software.

While you may disagree with their goals, and be almost religiously in opposition of them, I think they do more good than bad. They ultimately ensure that the customer/consumer has a wider choice in products and technologies, and they are IMHO they key to breaking the monopolistic world domination which certain vendors enjoy.

I honestly don't understand why some people believe Novells projects (for example Mono and Moonlight) are "bad" while similar cross-platform initiatives (such as WINE and SAMBA) are "good". I also don't understand why people see IBM's investments in Open Source projects as "good" while Novells are "bad".

In a free market, the users and customers benefit from having the widest range of products to choose from. Any company or community who is engaged in software projects which enhance portability and interconnectivity are "good" the way I see it. Especially when they release them under open source licenses - like Novell does.

Given the allready widespread use of .NET applications, being able to run them on a Linux cluster ensures that Linux can be a more attractive choice in a given scenario. The ability to provide end-users with Linux desktops which can run Win32 apps (WINE), read PDF documents, browse webpages created with Silverlight and use homepages full of fancy Shockwave Flash elements, makes it easier for a large Enterprise to choose Linux (any distro) as a client platform. In my view that enhances the competition - which is (almost) always good for the customers.

:-)

- Jesper

never on my box...

[Anonymous Coward]

not until they get rid of yast, and dump microsoft. yes, in that order. when a utility thinks it knows better than me what i want to do with my box, it's as bad as microsoft...

Re:never on my box...

[Anonymous Coward]

How does using YaST make the utility "know better than you"?

I've tweaked the same config files that YaST does with Nano. That's not anything you can't do or that it prevents you from doing.

I'm using OzOS a Xubuntu derivative right now. The one thing I definitely like about YaST is that it centralizes the system configuration. I've never understood how Ubuntu became so popular when it takes much more dealing with editing config files by hand since it lacks anything like YaST.

I musta missed the part about OPENSuse and MS, pray tell just how is MS tied into openSUSE? Good grief, get over it trolls! Novell signed an agreement with MS. They're both companies and entitled to do so. If it offers better interoperability then so be it.

But openSUSE is just that, OPEN, it's the communities distribution, not SLED. If you don't like SLED then don't use it. Personally I don't, but I do like openSUSE.

I have yet to see anyone that cries wolf about this issue present anything in openSUSE that is a result of Novell's agreement with MS and that "taints" the distribution.

Having said all that I know I fed a troll, but anyway.

austinramsay

[austinramsay]

Wow! The www.en.opensuse.org website is down! There are so many people downloading it, it crashed there site! I can't wait to start my download!

Beware the Parent's Logic

[mpapet]

Step 1: Make two things that are not comparable in any way sound the same. Apple-vs-Microsoft Microsoft-vs-Novell are not comparable situations. Period.

Step 2: Use false logic to support your argument.

Unfortunately, the harm Microsoft (via Novell) represents to the commercial OSS community is obvious to anyone who can maintain a few minutes of objectivity while examining the facts.

Moderators clearly fell for your abuse of logic. Congratulations.

*SuSe* can go screw itself

[slashdotlurker]

Maybe patent peace will protect it and its parent company.

From a Noob's point of View

[Corpuscavernosa]

I'll be the first to admit that I'm a Linux noob. I've played around with countless distros to find a great solution for my older (1.6GHz, 512M RAM, 40Gig HD) laptop, but I have almost zero command line experience and I wanted something that was easy to configure and just worked. I downloaded the beta version of OpenSUSE 11 and it just straight worked. Autoconfigure was great, wireless was perfect right out of the gate, etc.

For a Linux lover but amateur, I loved it for it's simplicity and ease of installation.

Re:From a Noob's point of View

[fprintf]

I think you would likely have the same experience with other distributions also. I came back to linux after a few years not paying attention, I originally used SuSE 5.1 I think. When I came back to Linux last year I downloaded Ubuntu and had a similar experience as yours. Flawless installation, systems on an old laptop works great etc. etc.

I only wish suspend and hibernate worked with the current issue of Ubuntu. Something broke on my last upgrade.

Re:From a Noob's point of View

[Corpuscavernosa]

I had Hardy Heron installed and it worked really well also, but I was annoyed with the same things you are. I wonder if it's some bug, but after my laptop overheating when I would close it, I switched and just really like OpenSUSE. Ubuntu is a really tight distro though.

Any Tips?

[Xmastrspy]

This will be my first attempt at updating a major release for Linix. Going from 10.3 to 11. I read the "hands-on look at the new installer" but am still a little worried that I am totally going to foob the install when I get home. Unfortunately, my Linux guru friend moved away and I am left to fend for myself.

Some questions I have:
Will I need to reinstall all the applications that I am currently using? Amarok for example.
Do I need to re get all the packages? (Is there a recommend list of packages to get after a new install?)
Will all of my directories and files be wiped?
Reinstall of WOW? (no freaking way am I doing that again!)

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!!

Re:Any Tips?

[Xmastrspy]

WHY in the hell did I get moded wiht a -1 in my first post?

Is asking for Linix advice a bad thing on slashdot?

Re:Any Tips?

[sydneyfong]

Yes if it's not specific to the topic. You must be new here :)

Use the support forums of the distribution of your choice. Slashdot is to discuss metaphysical matters like whether Novel is EVIL, whether Saint Stallman would prevail over flying chairs, whether the Penguin would achieve world domination, whether the Daemon has died, and so on...

Article gets at least three things wrong

[Whitemice]

1. openSUSE doesn't need a new era, it is doing just fine.

2. The Microsoft pact hasn't alienated any of the community that matters. There are fundamentalists that gripe and whine and spit about every intellectual property issue that they *perceive* reduces openness. And there are people who write code. There isn't much overlap at all between the coder and the fundamentalist - so there whining and spitting should just be takes as the meaningless noise that it is.

3. Yast is *extremely* modular and not in the least bit monolithic - one just has to look at the Yast packages to know that. It even has multiple front-ends. This makes as much charge as the people who accuse Evolution of being monolithic (it a highly modular app that consists mostly of cooperating components). Another Yast plus is that it works and coverts almost all configuration issues right down to certificate management. That makes SuSE / openSUSE the only distro with a comprehensive management tool.

Re:Article gets at least three things wrong

[sidnelson13]

Amen to that!

As a distro goes, there is nothing to gripe about; it has the usual plethora of productivity applications and utilities that one would expect to see in a mainstream Linux distro. However, there just aren't the stand out features that put OpenSUSE up above the likes of Fedora and Ubuntu.

The way I see it, YAST itself and OpenSUSE's packaging (Build Service + One-Click install + Zypper) are more than enough reasons for it to stand out. The way that review sounded to me was that just because the distribution has had the feature for as long as we know it, it's not worth praising, while the other distributions are still trying to just "get there", so we should praise them "for trying".

Not only that, but OpenSUSE is still tarnished by the patent covenant that Novell believe is essential for its survival, leaving a lot of existing Linux users very wary when they take a look at anything from Novell.

Christ! Novell != OpenSUSE. The only reason why OpenSUSE is being "tarnished" by the stupid decisions from its sponsor is because people like this guy from the review want to believe it's so!

At least Fedora has found a real niche for itself in the Linux world, whilst OpenSUSE is still struggling to find a definite identity away from its Novell roots.

Oh really? I have no words, that's just sad...

Try and look beyond the annoyances that we've mentioned and you'll find a very capable distribution, albeit one that is perhaps floundering in the wake of more aggressive distros such as Fedora and Ubuntu.

That was just a big biased review for me. He wasn't doing a review of OpenSUSE as much as he was comparing the distribution, which he already has his problems with, with other big distributions that best meet his personal views and directions.

Re:Article gets at least three things wrong

[drinkypoo]

I don't know about Yast, but Evolution isn't monolithic, it's megalithic. Or in other words, it's a big rock. This is why I use Thunderbird - it's superbloatware too, but you actually get something for your bloat.

Re:Article gets at least three things wrong

[Whitemice]

I don't know about Yast, but Evolution isn't monolithic, it's megalithic. Or in other words, it's a big rock. Hardly, Evolution is very light weight.

This is why I use Thunderbird - it's superbloatware too, but you actually get something for your bloat. Yes, you get no calendar, crappy LDAP support, a very primitive address book, no memos, no Exchange connectivity, no to-do list, among other absent features.

But comparing the feature to resource utilization ratio is ridiculous - Evolution blows Thunderbird out of the water.

And neither of these clients is bloated, both are fairly light weight. Most claims of "bloat" come from people who don't know how to read the utilization stats like RSS correctly.

Re:Article gets at least three things wrong

[Ambidisastrous]

SUSE was never the distro of choice for free-software coders -- it's always been targeted at enterprise users. The hackers have traditionally used Fedora and Debian. Novell's pact with Microsoft did piss off the FOSS fundamentalists, but they weren't developing on SUSE anyway. This is how old-timer volunteer coders swing.

On the other hand, corporate customers generally kind of like having Microsoft's "protection" for their distro of choice. Novell pays a lot of developers to work on SUSE, too.

The point being: there are coders, and there are fundamentalists, and these are completely orthogonal. The fundamentalists don't contribute to Mono or pay for SLED licenses, but they do write useful code. No distro is an island.

Re:Article gets at least three things wrong

[drinkypoo]

And neither of these clients is bloated, both are fairly light weight. Most claims of "bloat" come from people who don't know how to read the utilization stats like RSS correctly.

The install footprint of evolution and all the crap that makes it go is obscene. There is no way around that.

By contrast, there is simply no more powerful platform for rich content email than Thunderbird. Period, the end. Welcome to... what year is this again?

P.S. You get a calendar these days. It comes as a plugin, like god and the inventor of dlopen intended. And you can stick your exchange connectivity you-know-where. I recognize that some people care about such things - I am not one of them, and bloating GNOME (and thus to me, the Ubuntu default install) with it by default is offensive. Frankly, I wouldn't install any POP/IMAP client by default, although I would include one or more on the CD. (probably mutt, thunderbird, and yes, evolution.) I think most people use webmail exclusively now. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems to me that to most people "email" means some website they use for mail.

Competitor bashing

[SplatMan_DK]

Would you care to explain WHY? I mean, really explain. With rational arguments - not emotional, religious or similar irrational explanations.

Because Microsoft has had a long history of fighting against Open Source using every tactics possble. Their agreement with Novell makes Novell not trustworthy in that context. I'm not saying Novell makes bad products or SuSE sucks, but simply there is a suspicious agreement between a company that produces Open Source Software and a different one which always fought against OSS.

So, let me get this straight: You are seriously trying to make Novell evil by proxy? And by proxy only? That is not a rational argument in my book. Sorry :-)

Just for example, would you vote a politician who gets money from the opposite party?

I fail to see the relevance of that analogy. Microsoft and Novell are both software companies. Theyy both sell commercial software. And they made a deal where Novell got a truckload of cash while making Microsoft use and distribute their software. And in addition they got insight in certain closed source products which aided their efforts in making Windows/Linux cross-platform solutions (their core business). In any other non-fanatical, non-religious and more sensible context, that would be considered a rational business decision.

I think the answer to your question is: I will vote for the politician who doesn't lie and who gets the job done. So far Novell seems to fit that description. They have done nothing so far to make me believe that they are not trustworthy. And making a business deal with Microsoft is not in itself "untrustworthy". You are the one trying to display that single action as "untrustworthy" and I don't see any rational arguments to support it.

Probably because WINE doesn't try to make you embrace a closed source technology made in Redmond. There are excellent but Windows only apps out there and WINE provides a bridge to fill the gap (yes I know there are Wine APIs, still you aren't encouraged to use them to write Linux apps).

There are excellent .NET-only apps out there, and I welcome the ability to run them off a Linux cluster. I also welcome any initiative which enables me to choose my server OS/platform independently from my business application. And that is precisely what MONO does. MONO is for .NET servers what WINE is for desktop computers. I am a little surprised you don't see a basis for comparison.

Samba does the same network-wise.

Mono, on the other hand, makes you rely on a Windows technology that will always have more support on the windows platform.

Samba is a (great) product which ties Windows clients together with Linux servers. But it also enables users to keep Windows on their client computers, and continue to use Microsoft technologies and protocols for their server-related needs. It "embraces", as you call it, microsoft protocols and methods. Just as WINE "embraces" the Win32 API btw. In both cases their goal is to ensure interoperability between to competing platforms. Hopefully increasing overall competition in the process. And both the Win32 API and all the Microsoft-based network protocols available in SAMBA will always have more support on the Windows platform.

This makes both SAMBA and WINE bad, by your own definition.

Well, I happen top be one of those people who got to talk before some 50 IBM execs in 1997 or so, when they wanted to know more about it, so each of us (IBM contacted my local Linux Users Group) chose an argument then talked in front of them. Let me tell you one thing: while I was uncomfortable sourrounded by so many suits and security measures (armed guards, no photos, etc.) and some of them still weren't allowed to install Linux on their laptop when we offered to help (and they were execs!), which shows how bad the IBM

Re:Competitor bashing

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't get me wrong: Its a nice little story. I just don't see where it explains why Novell are "bad". And saying something nice about IBM is not (or at least shouldn't be) automatically saying something negative about Novell. :-)

- Jesper As I previously wrote, I never said Novell is evil or their products suck; the half-evil is purely due to Microsoft involvement.
Technically speaking they contributed a lot to Linux an OSS in the past and still do now, but Microsoft just put a foot in the door and took some control. To what extent? We don't know; this is the problem.
Believe me, I wish there wasn't a Microsoft deal, but there is one and it concerns me when A produces X, and B bashes X while giving money to A.

You can tell by ...

[Anonymous Coward]

SUSE has more Enterprise-focus You can tell by the massive number of shuttlecrafts that keep crashing into every planet or PC it is installed on ...

It's the codecs, stupid...

[Rob Y.]

I agree, Mandriva gets a lot right. But for some reason, I haven't been able to get 2008 to play unencrypted AAC files. Loaded all the codecs, but I probably have to upgrade Xine itself. I know I got it to work on 2007, just don't know what of all the things I tried did the trick.

And that's the nasty truth. The distros that preconfigure all the multimedia beat the ones that don't. And to do that, they have to be non U.S. (patents) and non-ideological (non-free stuff). Or they have to cut pre-load deals with OEM's that allow them to install non-free stuff for a pittance without 'redistributing' it.

Is there a solution to this?

Re:It's the codecs, stupid...

[CastrTroy]

You may want to try installing faad. I don't play any AAC music files, but I know installing libfaad and other libraries lets me watch the trailers on Apple.com with sound. With libfaad, I can see the video, but the sound doesn't work. So it's probably related to that. I'm not sure if faad is available as part of the core repositories, or if you have to add PLF to you list of repositories.

Re:It's the codecs, stupid...

[Rob Y.]

Already did that. Also installed the xine-libfaad connector. I'm guessing that the xine as released by Mandriva isn't compiled to work with libfaad, and that I have to reinstall xine from one of the 'non-free' repositories. Only problem with that is that the package manager warns me it's gonna uninstall a ton of stuff, and I'm scared to do it.

All of which reinforces my original point. This needs to be easier for desktop linux to pass even the limited 'internet terminal' usage test. Actually, for what it's worth, with PCLinuxOS all this stuff just works right out of the box (or liveCD). And I just might wait for their next release...

I'll bet this stuff works out of the box on the EeePC too. That's why OEM integration is so vital.

I think Mandriva's trying to get you to pony up for their non-free Power Pack edition, which probably makes it all work fine. I guess that's okay, but they charge too much. If they could get an OEM deal, I'm sure it would be a great distro for that. Chicken, egg, chicken, Microsoft...

I don't mind having to mess around with stuff and try 15 distros before settling on one. But that's not a strategy for widespread acceptance - which is a shame, because modern Linux is more than 'ready' these days.

Funny you should mention package management

[metamatic]

Package management is my biggest issue with OpenSuSE.

They started with YaST in the 9.x series. Then for a while, APT4RPM was the thing everyone used. Then the APT repositories disappeared and I had to switch to Yum, though the web site recommended switching to SMART. Now the official package manager is something I can't even remember the name of because nobody else uses it... *looks it up* Zypper.

I mean, WTF? Five different package managers in a couple of years, and they haven't done the intelligent thing and switched to a proven system that actually works? I mean, I understand why RedHat use RPM--they shat it out, so they feel obliged to keep using it. But why does SuSE keep using it, and why do they keep switching the front end?

Re:Probably not -- compiz

[Intelista]

The linux kernel... rock solid. But with compiz, gnome, and wine, ... sometimes I end up rebooting because I'm not familiar enough with what to kill and restart.

Apple and iTunes

[SEMW]

Only an Apple hater would think Apple would purposefully expend developer time just to break an open source project that undoubtedly sold more iPods. I'm afraid you're in denial. It is well known that Apple have consistently and deliberately added layers of hashes, obstufication, and DRM to successive versions of the iPod in order to try and stop it being accessed from third party players. For example, to quote from a BBC news story about it:

There seems to be no reason for this change except to break the functionality of alternative jukebox software. It will not limit copying or restrict attempts to strip digital rights management code from tracks. It will not stop people adding non-DRM files they have downloaded from the internet to their library. All it will do is stop the third party players working and force anyone with an iPod to use iTunes. Independent enough for you? The BBC are hardly "Apple haters". And crying "Why would they do this if it sells more iPods?" is short-sighted: iPods are a low-margin product; most of the money Apple makes from the iP+iT Ecosystem comes from the iTunes Music Store, which is locked to iTunes.

If All Else Fails, Bash Apple...

[deanston]

Maybe the floundering of a single, free, desktop 'Linux' rising to the top for consumers and corporate to choose is due to the fact that you CAN play with either Fedora/SUSE/Ubuntu 2-3 times a year but never stick with one long enough to do anything useful? Comments on this page explains a LOT about what is dividing Linux as a community.

Fixing XP

[Z34107]

A few tips. I work on a college campus, and I get stuck with XP and Vista reinstalls all the time. You may or may not be aware of some/a lot/all of these, but I'll take that risk if it could save you a few minutes. (It's loads of fun fixing exchange students' machines. They're all by "weird" manufacturers like NEC and I don't speak Japanese!)

Not much you can do with a crappy sysprep'd recovery disc. But, once the install is finished, run PC Decrappifier on the box. It'll yank out all the trialware/garbage bloat that comes with most PCs. It is a lot faster than having to manually remove all of them from Add/Remove programs.

(Remember to curse HP-Compaq and Dell for these programs, not Microsoft. Invoke not Crom's name on the wrong party.)

Keep Windows XP SP3, Vista SP1, IE7, Office 2003 SP3, and the Office 2007 patches on a flash drive. Find out what drivers the computer is going to need while Windows is installing and download them on another machine. This'll save you a few hours of Windows Update. Keep them stored somewhere, sorted by manufacturer and model so you'll never have to find them again. (For a while.)

If you are working on a fairly common model of computer, consider making an image from it. If you get a similar model again, it'll take minutes and not hours to fix it.

I can't speak for ways to reduce the XP install time, and I haven't installed a Linux distro recently. But in my experience, it's 30 minutes to install XP, and another 30 to install office, patches (from disk), and to register it on our network.

Good luck!

Re:Fixing XP

[HermMunster]

Most of what you suggest has already been considered and ruled out, primarily due to the fact that I'm working on machines that are from random people in the community with a lot of variety.

I have a notebook HDD in a USB enclosure that holds all my programs such as SP1, SP2, SP3, previously downloaded drivers (going way back to even the Win95 days), different packages, etc. This helps some...but...some machines just take X amount of time to do things...

I already copy off my HDD the open source products, the antivirus, spyware/adware removal tools, etc.

I've 23+ years in this field. Believe me, your suggestions are taken to heart but I can't agree with your conclusions. This is a nasty world of Windows we live in where the design of the OS is so poorly done with Windows that you have no choice but to put up with this stuff and the long durations required to complete it.

An hour to get Linux install, updated, and configured versus hours and hours to get Windows up to speed is a dramatic difference.

A Review!

[rathaven]

Just seen this review:

opensuse 11.0 review at downloadsquad

Re:things you may need/want to have Flash

[Anomalyst]

Haven't found one yet. Why would anyone want code written by marketdroids running on their machine?
If they can't get the their concept, let alone the information I seek in plain HTML, they probably do not have anything useful on the site, like say pricing.

Boycottnovell.com

[Anonymous Coward]

Boycottnovell.com is where you may keep up-to-date on the latest Novell/Microsoft news.

I hate them both. SUSE was ruined, IMO, by Microsoft's entry.

Re:Probably not -- compiz

[Gavagai80]

So maybe you shouldn't use beta software in a critical role if you care about stability? Nobody's making you use compiz.

No idea how wine could cause you to reboot, since it just runs non-critical applications, but I don't use it.

Because there is more to an OS than a fancy GUI?

[SplatMan_DK]

Seeing as how Ubuntu is Vista with a Linux kernel, I don't see why this can't be a new era for SuSE May I politely suggest: Because there is much more to an OS than whistles and bells in a fancy GUI?

A good package browser, corporate/enterprise-friendly administration tools, security systems and automated deployment mechanisms are all things that corporate users will evaluate.

While other distros may have a more polished and "Vista-like" GUI, SUSE is known to be more enterprise-oriented, because Novells core business is enterprise-grade infrastructure and enterprise-grade cross-platform tools.

:-)

- Jesper

What is a DRO Ping?

[SplatMan_DK]

and DROPing a packet. I have heard of just plain Ping ... but what is a DROPing?

Or did you maybee miss a letter, and it should have been DROPPing? In which case an IT forum might not be the right place for that discussion...? ;-) Or ... something ... ;-)

- Jesper

SuSE's firewall not a firewall ..

[rs232]

SuSEs firewall isn't a firewall, is a piece of software emulating a firewall. A firewall should run on embedded hardware between the desktop computer and the Internet. Does a Linux system even need a firewall. All you have to do is disable all Internet facing services apart from port 80 that is. With the current use of Web 2 and RPC over HTML type services, this renders the use of a firewall dilute.

Fixed link

[trolltalk.com]

Should have used preview for the first post of the day ..

http://www.netmag.co.uk/zine/discover-interview/dean-hachamovitch

Why bash Novell and not Apple

[LongTimeLurker65]

It's true that both Novell and Apple have patent agreements with MS. There's a big difference between them, though. Which company called press conferences and trumpeted it to the world as if it were a good thing and sang the praises of the interoperability that would surely follow and how it would solve all the world's problems? Exactly.

Re:Probably not -- compiz

[PReDiToR]

A lot of the time you can hit "CTRL-ALT-backspace" to restart your GUI.

If you take a look in /etc/init.d you will find a list of services. Google them (or read the documen ... wait, this is Slashdot <grin>) and not only will you gain confidence, but you can maximise your uptime to show off with.

Re:Probably not -- compiz

[Intelista]

Absolutely! But this beta software is part of the Ubuntu standard distribution. My home desktop is not exactly mission critical, but it's important to my experience with linux. And knowing about the problem, I still choose to use it. It's good stuff. But my comment stands.

The only reason I reboot is to clear wine state or if the desktop is too sunk to let me CTRL-ALT_BACKSPACE. I find once wine dies on one of my favorite apps, restarting wine doesn't always let the app run.