Slashdot Mirror
Sun's Java Will Be Free This Year
Ian Whyde notes that Sun is finally coming to the end of its struggle to open up Java completely. Simon Phipps, the chief open source officer at Sun Microsystems, said: "There were a couple of holdouts there. One was the area to do with raster graphics and 2D graphics. That turned out to be owned by a company that didn't want us to release that code as open source. We negotiated with them and because they've said 'yes, you can open source the code'... The only element that's left now is actually a sound-related component within Java. We finally decided that the vendor that's involved there just isn't going to play ball and we're rewriting the code from scratch. That's going to be done within the next couple of months." In another sense the milestone of a free Java was reached this week when IcedTea passed the rigorous Java Test Compatibility Kit.
64bit Support? Well I guess that will be trivial when we can at least build from source. Then into packages and Repo's :D
# cat
Damn, my RAM is full of cats. MEOW!!
Am I the only one who loves Coldfusion?
-Jim Bastard
Why don't they just optimize the needed lines from IcedTea and glue them to their licensed code?
isn't that supposed to be the way OSS benefits the community?
- Human knowledge belongs to the world
Announcements of opening or obsolescence : I'll believe it when I'll see it.
The Wise adapts himself to the world. The Fool adapts the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the Fool.
Once the GPL version is out there it's out there, having a closed source licence version won't stop that.
"Because we are not employing at entry level, offshoring will kill our industry stone dead."
Sun would still have special rights whether it was dual licensed or not.
Exactly - as soon as Sun put code in to it (i.e. the start) they had rights on it in terms of having control over people re-licensing it. Now that it's GPLed then Sun can do whatever they want, but the GPL version is still out there and free for people to take and modify.
I think I'm with everyone here if I give Sun a big "Thank you!" for all their trouble and effort. Java would probably one of the biggest wins for the community and its release when it comes will be worth a celebration.
Dual licensing means that Sun still has special rights
If Sun has copyright, they have special rights regardless of how many licenses they release Java under.
Frankly, if Java's released under a free license, its irrelevant what other licenses you use with it.
(is perl less free because of dual licensing? KDE?)
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
This is also the year of Linux on desktop.
What do we need Sun's Java for when we've got IcedTea, which is essentially Sun's Java with patented code (and other parts which could not be open-sourced) re-written? Is Sun's release better in any way?
Have you got your LWN subscription yet?
... people recognize the scale and generosity of what Sun have done in GPL'ing their crown jewel.
${YEAR+1} is going to be the year of Linux on the desktop!
According to http://java.sun.com/products/java-media/sound/soundbanks.html that looks like Thomas "Dolby" Robertson's Beatnik, Inc. -- or who "isn't going to play ball"?
Indeed. That and the risks still involved with this whole movement.
Does anybody know who they are?
I think we should get the rumor mill started with things like "actively discouraged open-source" and so on, after all Sun are doing a good thing yet it seems this one company have been holding it up with an over-zealous attitude to I.P.
RMS has decried the GPL'ing of Java as being a major assault on free software advocacy.
"For years we have warned people to steer clear of writing free software in languages that require non-free VM's or other components to work by calling this the 'Java trap'. Using this well known example with a VM that is slow and bloated and used for software that doesn't fit into any OS anywhere and which nobody actually liked, quickly got the point made and we could then more easily make the point about things that some people actually enjoyed like educational games written in flash... now SUN has GPL'd Java they have made removed our greatest example of the evils of the erm flash trap ! This may still have been a win for free software if only anything usable had ever been written in Java - but seeing as nothing has, it was only ever good as an example. Universities used the language as an example of good object orientation, we used the license as an example of the s/java/flash/g trap" the FSF founder said in a press release.
Despite his hardcore geek nature the release will more likely be remembered for his attempts at a verbal sed script than for it's actual point.
Unicode killed the ASCII-art *
Yes of course Java will be declared obsolete this year. As one of the top most in demand tech skill on the planet all the usuers are furiously swapping to make sure they convert to product Y by the end of the year and abandon the last ten years of development. (try typing in the word Java to a job search engine, then type in your favorite skill de jour)
The kind of free that doesn't turn intelligent computer scientists and engineers into retarded politicians whinging about intellectual property and patents rather than just getting the fuck on with it.
Once again, I thank SUN for all efforts in this direction. My request to other OSS evangelists is to let existing Open source implementations of Java die so that efforts can be spent on this SUN implementation alone. The availability of multiple implementations of the same idea is not getting us very far so far. I hope we have learned from this.
This is funny, not interesting.
Hail Eris, full of mischief...
E pluribus sanguinem
Nowadays you can browse most of the web without retarded applets popping up
Yeah, instead now you have those annoying closed source Flash (TM)(C) animations showing smilies shouting all over the place.
Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
Sun's stock is likely to be free this year, too. As if being 95% off its 2001 price back in 2007, Jonothan Schwartz's brilliant renaming of the ticket and 4:1 reverse split has accomlished an almost 60% loss of value in the last eight months.
With this idiot at the helm and the board which obviously could not care less what happens at Sun, I wouldn't doubt if the current price ($2.85 in pre-reverse-split prices) drops another 50% by 2009.
Applets? Do you think that's what Java is used for these days? Have you been in hibernation, or serving time?
Your head a splode
I thought the sun just did light...and..stuff...
I hear everybody mentioning Java being the top programming language, and reputable sites everywhere seem to agree.
However, where is all this Java being used? Every program I use (when source is available) seems to be C++, a .NET language, or PHP/Perl/Python/ASP for websites.
Are all these developers compiling the bytecode to native code when they distribute? Where are the results for this huge demand for Java?
Thanks,
Danny
Methinks it speaks very ill for Java, if the sound support is so deeply woven into the language that this becomes a major problem.
Back in 1973, when Dennis Ritchie created C, the decoupling of I/O from the syntax by using libraries was a major advantage over the languages of the day, such as Fortran and Cobol. Today languages such as Perl or Python have further perfected this concept. In Python there are standard APIs so that in many cases you can switch to another library without changing the function calls.
Java may be more used than Python or Ruby, but so is VB, too, in the corporate applications. Perhaps Sun will find that it takes more than a free-as-in-speech licence to catch the spirit of free software.
the way it has been going.
May I suggest Myths and facts about 64-bit Linux for your reading pleasure ?
Yes but they let people have some say. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Community_Process If there was something that you wanted in Java you could make a Java Specification Request or JSR for it and hope it gets moved in. But we all want avoid bloat so this is a very slow heavy process. Take a look at this page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_version_history and you can see that several JSRs have been moved in to Java it self. I could be wrong but it seems that for Java 6 the additions to Java have all been from JSRs so it looks like Sun intends to have all new improvements go though the JCP first.
Come to think of it this reminds me a lot of other open projects. The code is open and you can suggest something should be in it. However if they say no you are SOL. You will have to compile the project on your own and add in your changes. What would you want instead? Is the only problem you have that Sun has final say in the JCP?
You should seriously consider installing noscript into your browser. Set it to allow first party scripts and block 3rd party scripts. 99.44% of all ads are GONE, and browser performance will greatly enhanced.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
I Have enjoyed writing software in Mono for the past year or so and developing .Net applications at work a little longer.
But one thing bothers me - you know what I going to say next.... ..Patents! or MS derived technology.
Now, to be fair it seems pretty much most software is 'perceived' to violate a patent of some description today.
As I understand it the mono vm apparently is o.k. but some of the libraries(e.g. ADO, Windows.Forms, ASP and even c#) are suppossed to violate patents and this is unfortunate.
Some of the software I have written will have commercial applications and the *uncertainty* of the status of mono in general is in question. Even the MS 'agreements' signed by Novell purposely *exclude* mono in any protection.
Personally I prefer Mono(and some great apps are available-e.g. Banshee, MonoDevelop) compared to Java but because of the huge amount of work by Sun and the community to fully open-source Java I will switch to it immediately.
My reasons to switch are: .Net's direction from v2.00 to v3.5 is becoming more tied in to Windows. From v3.0(or v3.5?) Microsoft included Vista libraries are part of the default installation. It's the old MS Treadmill(tm) all over again.
1) Java is open-sourced and the actual company(Sun) that created it are fully involved and are a positive influence in the community.
2) Java is present in almost all modern mobile phones. There is great potential to leverage this and I'm sure there are many ways this can be used with the Desktop.
3) The development tools are free, full versions and are very powerful. Visual Studio Express is free but it has reduced functionality compared to the full version.
4) 'Peace of Mind'. I can develop my software without looking over my shoulder wondering 'will I get sued'!
5)
As far as I know both Java and Mono are very capable technologies. It is difficult to choose one on technical merit alone, it comes down to the licensing - Sun has fully committed to the community and Microsoft has been fairly under-handed.
If Mono is to survive and be taken seriously within the community it must take a completely different direction. Start developing open-source equivalents of the libraries (e.g. gtk# for gui controls).
Like I said before I prefer Mono to Java (concerning the gui Mono just 'feels' more responsive than Java).
What we should do as a community is to fully get behind Java and push its development and start using it on the desktop. We can create some great applications for it and keep open-source software 'untainted'.
Sun have made a great long-term decision by opening-up Java - it will be seen as a safe option and is available for many platforms. .Net's long-term future is in doubt because Microsoft will not open-source or allow competing versions to exist. Many forms of computers now exist today in mobile phones, pdas, laptops and many different types of CPUs. Java(in various forms) runs everywhere. By using Java as a common standard all these devices can communicate together and develop interesting uses.
Just the insane ramblings of a elderly programmer (I'm 38 you know!).
P.S. 'Get off my lawn!'
My school insists on using a java applet for its email The Ohio State University. Needless to say, it's the worst email system ever devised and has lots of cross browser incompatiblities. To top it off, they really think the java applet is a good idea, because they just did a major update to it, overhauling the entire program.
I avoid it like the plague by using pop3 and smtp
Do you guys and gals remember when Richard did a short stint in a video for Sun following the announcement that Sun had decided to GPL Java ?
I can only imagine how happy Richard was on that day. He had every reason to be so. Not simply because Sun had chosen to use his license for Java-but rather because of a little bit of historical trivia that most Free Software users are too young to remember.
Now surely you know the name James Gosling. He was the one who created Java. But did you know that there is a rather interesting relationship between him and Richard ?
One of the single biggest reasons that Richard wrote the GPL and created what we now know as Free Software has everything to do with James Gosling.
"In the early years (1984 to 1988), the GNU Project did not have a single license to cover all its software. What led Stallman to the creation of this copyleft license was his experience with James Gosling, creator of NeWs and the Java programming language, and UniPress, over Emacs. While Stallman created the first Emacs in 1975, Gosling wrote the first C-based Emacs (Gosling Emacs) running on Unix in 1982. Gosling initally allowed free distribution of the Gosling Emacs source code, which Stallman used in early 1985 in the first version (15.34) of GNU Emacs. Gosling later sold rights to Gosling Emacs to UniPress, and Gosling Emacs became UniPress Emacs. UniPress threatened Stallman to stop distributing the Gosling source code, and Stallman was forced to comply. He later replace these parts with his own code. (Emacs version 16.56). (See the Emacs Timeline) To prevent free code from being proprietarized in this manner in the future, Stallman invented the GPL."
http://www.free-soft.org/gpl_history/Many people who are ignorant of this history have always been affronted by Stallman's use of the phrase "Java Trap". But is it really any wonder that Richard chose to use that expression-given what personally had transpired between him and James Gosling.
Bill Joy was the cofounder of Sun Microsystems. He is also the guy who originally wrote Vi. Bill Joy was also friends with James Gosling- and made Gosling's baby practically synonymous with the name Sun.
This little bit of trivia adds a whole lot to all of the flamefests over the years about Emacs vs. Vi. SunOS, which we now know as OpenSolaris, was the first heavily commercialized version of what we now know as BSD. Bill Joy used the code written at Berkley to create the original SunOS.
That Java is now GPL is nothing less than Sun saying to Richard-"Richard, you were right". And if one day OpenSolaris embraces the GPL Richard's victory will be complete.
You may think this is nothing but propaganda-but I encourage you to actually *learn* about the history of these giants of the computer world.
Now that the OpenJDK is %100 Free, %100 GPL, Richard has received the kind of vindication that hardly *anyone* in life ever gets. Cheers to you Richard and Cheers to Sun for seeing the light.
Duke Nukem Forever.
This software should have been freed up years ago.
Too little, too late, IMHO.
Sig Follows: "Suppose you were an idiot. And suppose you were a member of Congress. But I repeat myself." -- Mark Twain
If he was in hibernation then he would know it wasn't.
----
Go canucks, habs, and sens!
It seems like the only responsible thing to do when so many (often free software) developers are getting into Java for platform independence and something relatively easy to work with that won't die out with a new version of [Proprietary Operating System].
"Most people, I think, don't even know what a rootkit is, so why should they care about it?"
And just to finish out the whole thing: if your fork of the product becomes more sufficiently popular, the original creators will probably change their mind and accept your patches. We've seen this happen again and again, especially in the X11 community :)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
On the other hand, the GPL has some very specific restrictions on how code may be modified or re-licensed. It's also got that fantastic clause that RMS may retroactively change the terms of your license at any time (Linus ignores that one).
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
Yep. The only difference is with Java you replace 'fork of the product' and 'patches' with JSR. Come to think of it since Sun is a big corporation they have to bend to pressure on things everyone wants. So it's unlikely you will have the same kind of stupid "We don't need that to be optional" argument that recently happened to Pidgin. (http://tech.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=08/04/30/1822237)
oops meant to reply to drinkypoo...
well it looks like I needed to refresh the page. This new comment system is messing with me. now that I'm made a proper ass of my self I'll shut up.
I've downloaded Java from Sun a couple of years ago and didn't have to pay a dime!
(ducks for cover)
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
I know, I know, free beer vs free speech, RMS etc.
Seriously, though, does anybody know of significant Java apps that use that javax.sound API which is the problem in OpenJDK?
Seems like this is the least frequently used (and least important) part of the J2SE API.
Yeah, I can't think of any common desktop app that does extensive decompression, image scaling and SSL. I'd have no use for an app like that if it did exist, telnet fits all my web browsing needs. What's more, 640k should be enough for anyone!
This new comment system is the ass. Or in the modern parlance, it is ass. It keeps eating my fucking comments, I have to ^A^C before I submit anything I care about again, just like I did in the bad old days when slashdot would tell me I had an invalid form ID practically every time I resubmitted a form. Except now I tend to have to refresh a whole fucking page of comments to re-author my reply. Kind of makes me think they understand this AJAX thing about as well as google does. (Question: why does gmail have to contact the server AGAIN when I write a reply, to get the quoted version of the text? You'd think they'd be able to quote and insert the email from the copy they already downloaded to display to me in the mail display view. Google wastes more bandwidth than porn.)
"You're right," Fisheye says. "I should have set it on 'whip' or 'chop.'"
Actually, no. If the clause is present (it may or may not be, in any particular program's GPL), RMS can effectively relicense the program under any future GPL version. However, the terms of the existing license cannot be altered - that is, the program will still stay available under GPL v2, even if RMS puts out GPL v3, but a possessor of a copy may choose to distribute it under GPL v3 instead.
Forget magic. Any technology distinguishable from divine power is insufficiently advanced.
There is the slight fact that Java sucks at tracking code dependencies, so the only way to have reliable access to a third-party component is to have it bundled in the JVM.
It's not like a .so file you can drop live on a system and is instantaneously visible to every app. In java either it's shipped with the jvm or you have to rely on brittle manual classpaths.
(that's why jvms are bloated pigs - they include everything SUN approved, and why java depends so much on app servers - they do the environment setup the jvm itself did not)
That's also why everyone cares about JSRs. Otherwise third parties would just let their components popular by themselves, and not give a fig about the possibility of getting merged in-jvm. A completed JSR circuit is no quality assurance (witness JSR 277). It does means SUN likes you and may make you part of the JVM itself.
http://www.mhall119.com
Once the GPL version is out there it's out there, having a closed source licence version won't stop that.
Yes it will, because Sun is the only company not constrained by the GPL and therefore has a huge commercial advantage over any potential competitor.
Where is the setting for this in NoScript's preferences gui? The behavior you're describing is exactly what I want, but I've been through every tab twice, and I can't see anything that looks like it does that.
Find free books.
While "[Group X] has intentionally stacked the [Standard Y] board" screams of miss behavior you say they are stacking against them self. What is the motive? To make it LOOK like it's not Suns project but it really is? Low resources to screw it over? I am more then happy to admit that Sun is doing something evil in all this but this is the worst I've seen them do so far and it's not that big of a deal. Hell, you could argue it shows they want the community more involved in Java development.
If Sun has copyright, they have special rights regardless of how many licenses they release Java under.
But that's the problem: Sun has copyright; nobody else does.
That's different from projects like Linux, where lots of people hold copyright to a code base, and where all the contributors and users are on equal footing.
(is perl less free because of dual licensing? KDE?)
I don't know; I haven't looked at their licenses. I have looked at the Java license.
this That, and well, it already blocks 3rd party scripts by default, so nothing to set there. Worst part is when you go to sites like youtube, you will have to whitelist ytimg.com cause the scripts are on a secondary domain. But it only takes two seconds and its set forever.
Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
Now they only need to get the OCAP standards open sourced.
http://www.mhall119.com
I thought Sun was doing this when Duke Nukem Forever was released.
Yes, sorry about that. I am still in the mind set of the original post. Also I am currently looking very closely for evilness on Suns part in all this. If they are doing anything shady I would like to know about it. I use Java a lot for work and honestly I enjoy it. I am considering playing around with Solaris and other Sun projects some more. So before I focus more on Sun tech I would like to know I don't have MS like issues to worry about later.
Thanks! Hmm...actually, now that I think of it, I guess what I really want isn't what you described. I probably want all scripts to be blocked by default, I want to be notified when 1st-party scripts are blocked, and I don't want to be notified when 3rd-party scripts are blocked. I guess the default behavior isn't so bad; I just have to make a habit of specifically blacklisting 3rd-party sites and specifically whitelisting 1st-party sites, and once I've done that once, I won't get the annoying alerts every time I visit a particular site.
Find free books.
Exactly - as soon as Sun put code in to it (i.e. the start) they had rights on it in terms of having control over people re-licensing it.
Yes, but they could give up those rights by no dual licensing it and accepting contributions under the GPL.
The fact that they do everything in their power to retain those rights is what makes Java non-free and what make Java not an open source project, even though it is under an open source license.
Come to think of it this reminds me a lot of other open projects. The code is open and you can suggest something should be in it. However if they say no you are SOL
If they say "no", I can fork the project and compete with them. That's why we have Xorg instead of Xfree86 now.
I can't do that with Java. I can fork it under the GPL, but I can't compete with Sun because Sun can also license their copy commercially.
If there was something that you wanted in Java you could make a Java Specification Request or JSR for it and hope it gets moved in. But we all want avoid bloat so this is a very slow heavy process.
You must be kidding. Java is one of the most bloated platforms in history, and is exactly because Sun can do as they please with the platform. Such an accumulation of crap would never have been tolerated by a regular open source project.
IDE & tool support for Swing is generally still better than for SWT. I wish there was anything like NetBeans/Matisse and GroupLayout for SWT...
Java is all about the server side. Click the link in my to see a site written almost entirely in java (with no client side java whatsoever).
Cow Cube
Wrong. That is not a clause of the GPL.
A program can specify that it is released under "GPL v2 or (at your option) any later version" but that is really just a dual licensing.
Linus specified just v2, so that is the single license of Linux.
Competition is good. Now other people can take a look at how Sun did it. This is especially useful if some stuff in your own impelmentation didn't work. Or you could even take code out of Sun's Java, or even make a fork. Forks don't have to be a bad thing for Java. The embrace, extend and extinguish fork from MS was bad for Java. But I fail to see how an OSS fork (without the leverage of a desktop monopoly) could ever be bad for Java. Worst case for Sun: Many different vms that are all strong would force them to define clear standards and would force everyone to be compliant to those. How is that bad for us?
Remember: In OSS they don't have a monopoly like MS has.
As someone whose "programming" experience goes no further than html, I'm having difficulty understanding how you can have code sample A in front of you (under NDA) but write code sample B "from scratch" that does the same thing without infringing on the copyright/patent of code sample A.
Can someone explain how this is done? Or give an analogy of sorts?
- RG>
Hey pal, this isn't a pleasantforest, so don't waste my time with pleasantries!
The FSF asks that people assign copyright to them for any number of GPL'd projects. No one seems to mind. Stop fear-mongering.
Java is not a toy, it is an enterprise application. It is running in many financial institutions, many of which are not known by the general public but that handle tons of money, supporting back office operations.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Which explains the popularity of Visual Basic....
My guess is that nowadays is C# with healthy dosages of C++ and a bit of C.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
But many folks around here forget that far too easily.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
Satire has to be funny to be such...
At least now you know you are rubbish at telling jokes, not all is lost.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
If you are a consultancy relying heavily on a given piece of software and it brakes or you need enhancements, who are you going to ask to do the work for you?
Maybe people working independently in FOSS projects do not know how to market themselves as gurus of a given project, but this does not mean some people actually doing the programming will not benefit.
IANAL but write like a drunk one.
I'm confused about how the "or later" wording doesn't allow the GPL maintainers to arbitrarily change the terms of the license to their liking by releasing it under a new version.
If the FSF decide to start taking drugs, and include a clause in GPLv4 that allows closed-source derivatives of GPLv4 software to be sold for profit, the same would seem to retroactively apply to all GPLv3 software. This would be bad.
-- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
There's more kinda of RAID than RAID-5. But thanks for playing anyway.
ZFS can do stuff that's pretty much like 0,1,5,6, and the 10,50,60 variants of that. It can also do multiple copies on a single disk, and does round-trip checksumming.
What other sorts of RAID do you find useful?
My God, it's Full of Source!
OUTSIDE_IP=$(dig +short my.ip @outsideip.net)
Yes, unfortunately, the Visual Editor for Eclipse wasn't updated to work with Eclipse 3.3. I wish I knew why, as it was one of the key plugins that was pushed to work with Eclipse 3.2 prior to its release.
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
Thanks for the info.
Correct me if I am wrong but Java 6 SE now uses the native drawing routines of the underlying widget library (e.g. gtk)?
Is gui performance - particularly 'Swing' less of an issue now?
Heck, if you really wanted to, you could let Java write client-side scripts for you!
Note: I have nothing to do with the linked to product nor have I ever used it... in fact, I think it's quite silly to duplicate some of Java's libraries in Javascript.
Just as silly as using ASP.NET, which I'm currently required to do at work...
GLaDOS for President 2016! "Well here we are again. It's always such a pleasure." -- GLaDOS, 2011
I am primarily interested in whether JDK 7 is going to make it out this year or not. For the longest time it's been forecast to arrive in 2008, and yet, the existing binary snapshots seem very immature (ie. completely missing major features supposedly in Java7).
The silence is starting to concern me, I think Java desperately needs the updates in 1.7 to keep it alive in the face of competition from more dynamic languages.
They're the one think Java has that other, nicer languages don't, so anywhere sane they're going to be the only think it's used for.
I am trolling
It's also got that fantastic clause that RMS may retroactively change the terms of your license at any time (Linus ignores that one).
The fsf suggest licensing your code under "either version of the license or any later version" but I don't think there is anything in the GPL obliging you to do so.
note: i'm known as plugwash most places but i screwd up registering that here somehow in the past and now can't register
FireFox does something along the same lines don't they? You can redistrubute the code but the name and icon must be changed. This is a matter of opinion and off topic. I am very interested in understanding any licensing issues Java may have so please keep this thread on that topic.