Bill Gates Chews Out Microsoft

s31523 writes "All of us have one time or another been completely frustrated by certain Windows usability issues, and in many cases our experiences have driven us over to Linux, or kept us there. For anyone that has ever been frustrated, you will be happy to know you aren't the only one. After reading this leaked Microsoft memo from Bill Gates back in 2003, you will surely have more insight into why Vista is a complete disaster due to Microsoft not learning anything from their experiences from XP."

Comments

Then STOP releasing the product!

[neapolitan]

Interestingly enough, Gates could have really improved his image during his tenure at Microsoft if he let emails like that "leak" out prior to stepping down. Instead, he gives keynotes about Microsoft and its "innovation."

First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style. Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here.

Secondly, *if you can't do anything about this crap, then stop releasing it on time and FIX THE ISSUES* instead of releasing it to the world for millions of users to suffer under your monopoly. If your software sucks, fix the problems instead of using oppressive business practices to make *everybody* suffer.

Next, people complain about Linux usability? apt-get install mplayer k3b, etc? It is not harder, just different. In fact, having all of the software most people need in one place makes Linux easier for most people in many ways, specifically the way that possible-Bill rants about here.

Whenever I have listen to Gates talk or talked to him (many, many years ago now, in the late 90's) he seems more than aware of problems with his product, and I always get this vibe "I'm doing it because I can and it is really, really, really good for business and nobody is stopping me." If any of you were following the USDOJ against Microsoft way back before the Bush-era forgiveness, Microsoft was going to be split into three companies. When Bill was on the stand, he basically went "I don't remember" to every possibly incriminating statement, but was clearly aware of the bad ethics of what he was doing -- again, reading between the lines I always got the vibe of the triumphant geek saying "I'm not going to stop until you guys get your act together and make me stop."

He's not a stupid guy that way, and anybody that respects billionaires must ask themselves if they would do the same things with a company to maintain market share... Personally, I like to think I wouldn't, but that's why I am not a CEO.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[morgan_greywolf]

First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style

Agreed. He doesn't say any of his trademarks like "That's the stupidest thing I've ever heard!" or "I could have written MovieMaker in Excel macros over the weekend!" (okay, the last one is a stretch. ;)

Next, people complain about Linux usability? apt-get install mplayer k3b, etc? It is not harder, just different. In fact, having all of the software most people need in one place makes Linux easier for most people in many ways, specifically the way that possible-Bill rants about here.

Here's the problem from a usability standpoint: I want to install a media player. I don't know that I need to install mplayer, xine or totem. (What is a totem and WTF does it have to do with playing media? WTF is a xine anyhow?) THe 'Add/Remove Programs' in Ubuntu addresses some of this, but try installing an app that plays podcasts WITHOUT KNOWING that democracyplayer and VLC play podcasts.

 

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Max Littlemore]

Interestingly enough, Gates could have really improved his image during his tenure at Microsoft if he let emails like that "leak" out prior to stepping down.

Maybe, but then again he still had to work there and keep the company working effectively. If this stuff had leaked out to everyone in the company, who knows what it would have done for morale? Keeping this kind of stuff in the family is often the best thing to do for the family.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Red Flayer]

Interestingly enough, Gates could have really improved his image during his tenure at Microsoft if he let emails like that "leak" out prior to stepping down. Instead, he gives keynotes about Microsoft and its "innovation."

Except as head of the company, his job is not to make himslef look better, it is to make the company look better. There is no way a CxO wants an internal email like that leaked, if they really care about the company.

Wait... is it really possible that we should give Gates some credit for acting responsibly?

First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style. Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here.

I agree with you on the writing style, but you never know, since this was an internal document, and people use different writing styles for different purposes. I'd also note that when knowleadgeable people do usability testing, they normally feign ignorance -- they test as if they were a user with limited knowledge.

I'm not upper management, but I've sent (and seen) similar emails when a prject went FUBAR.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[MMC Monster]

Reading the letter, it really doesn't sound like anything Gates would say. He's not an end user. As you said, he certainly should know why rebooting would be necessary when updating part of the OS.

That being said, Gates has nothing to worry about in regard to his personal reputation. There is no need for him to "talk himself up". Outside of the slashdot community and certain parts of the tech industry, he is highly regarded as a successful businessman and as a philanthropist.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[WK2]

First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style.

I think you're right. This "article" screams fake! Notice this part: "I decided to download (Moviemaker) and buy the Digital Plus pack ... so I went to Microsoft.com. They have a download place so I went there." Gates wouldn't have said "they", he would have said "we". And the subject says "flame". It is indeed a rant. Most executives would never write such a thing in a permanent medium. In the end, nobody can ever prove or disprove a "leaked" memo, unless the appropriate party fesses up, but this looks fake.

if you can't do anything about this crap, then stop releasing it on time...

Way ahead of you!

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[AvitarX]

but try installing an app that plays podcasts WITHOUT KNOWING that democracyplayer and VLC play podcasts.

I went to add/remove and typed podcast in the search.

When sorted by popularity:
1) rythmbox music player, play and orginize your music collection. I bet this works for audio podcasts

2) Miro Internet TV, Watch online videa.
details:
Miro (previously known as Democracy Player) is a platform for Internet television and video. It allows you to download and watch videos from RSS feeds (including podcasts, video blogs, and BitTorrent feeds).

This application is provided by the Ubuntu community.

I bet that's what I would pick.

Of course gpodder 2 further down may have been my choice (it mentions audio and video podcasts in the brief description).

I would never have used vlc though, I use it daily, and didn't realize it did podcasts.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Tom]

I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, Which are what, exactly? Sorry, I'm a Unix dude, I really don't know and I've always been wondering about this part. Aside from the kernel, I can replace everything on most Unix systems without a reboot. Why is that so tricky on windos?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[hrieke]

The letter is from the antitrust files, so it's certified.

The very interesting thing is that there is no single person at Microsoft who has the final say on how all of there stuff interacts together. Not even Bill has that clout (and if he did, he sucked at his job).

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[x_MeRLiN_x]

How do you "know what you're looking for" without searching the web exactly?

It's worth noting that Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities as they could, but their hands are tied thanks to those who whined to the DOJ.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[setagllib]

That's exactly what I said. Finding the product is the same on Windows and Linux, but at least Linux *has* the index and package manager right there, so it's no worse.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you can't. Under windows you can't overwrite the old file with the new file as the file is locked. You have to reboot to reset the lock.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[cptnapalm]

"What is a totem and WTF does it have to do with playing media?"

What's a Google?
What's a Yahoo!?
What's a WinAmp?
What's a Slashdot?
What's a Firefox?
What's an eBay?
What's a NewEgg?
What's a Lightwave?
What's a Nero?
What's an Outlook Express?
What's a Visual Studio?
What's an AutoCAD?

With names like these, no one will ever use them.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Anonymous Coward]

I don't know that I need to install mplayer, xine or totem.

apt-cache search "media player"

You can do the search in Synaptic too.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Jesus_666]

He's not an end user. As you said, he certainly should know why rebooting would be necessary when updating part of the OS.

Actually, he tested the whole thing like one. I read the "Why should I have to reboot?" part as "Why should I have to reboot to install a movie editor?"

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Anonymous Coward]

I consider myself a relatively experienced admin. I run several networks, and I have been using linux forever as my main desktop. I was there for the Slackware jump to 7.

I've set up multi-auth systems, I have set up linux vpn gateways that authenticate to Microsoft servers, designed full network installations that span several geographic locations. I'm in the scene. My mailbox is full of lists and groups about all aspects of computers. I am not a n00b.

That being said, when I decided to put a webcam on my desk, I really was at a loss as to what software to use to do some very basic things. Sure it works fine in Kopete, but it wouldn't let me grab a snapshot in it. At least nowhere I could find.

Would this problem be resolved if the cam manufacturer had included linux support? possibly. Long story short, it took me forever to figure out how to simply save a picture from my webcam, and I'm neither a grandpa, nor a luddite.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[M0pper]

... First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style. Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here...

Maybe what he ment by 'why should i have to reboot my computer' is 'why does the stupid thing practically *force* me to reboot *now*'? It's something that really bothers me in Windows, you know, the 'would you like to reboot now or be reminded in 5 minutes?'. Usually, I don't want to reboot at all at that time, but i have to because the stupid window keeps popping up every 5 mins. When linux updates, it tells me that a reboot is needed to complete the update and then leaves me alone. Much better.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Anonymous Coward]

"he certainly should know why rebooting would be necessary when updating part of the OS."

This is a Windowism. In mature operating systems such as linux one does not have reboot a machine after installing a multimedia application.

You've been trained to think that it is necessary.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[wezeldog]

Depending on you situation, you don't have to search the web. Open Adept Manager in KDE and you can drag and drop key words to narrow down the list. You can search as well. Synaptic is similar. If I recall correctly, SUSE had a nifty hierarchical organization.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[pmbasehore]

I'd also note that when knowleadgeable people do usability testing, they normally feign ignorance -- they test as if they were a user with limited knowledge.
Since my degree (Technical Communications) concerns interface design and usability testing, what Red Flayer says is 100% accurate. Any usability tester worth their salt will force themselves to think like their target audience--in this case, a typical "email and word processor" computer user.

As much as it may be against the status quo here, I have to give credit where credit is due. If the email is really from Bill Gates (after reading it, I am not sure...), he seems to know what he is doing in regards to usability testing.

The man is not stupid, just unethical.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[RulerOf]

Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running... He makes a very, very excellent point. Even if he knows the intricacies of the OS (which I honestly doubt he does, cause it's not his job anymore), why should he have to reboot? Why can't he download the Moviemaker app, run the installer, and have it take care of everything for him? Why can't he browse an incredibly well thought out directory of free Microsoft products, built right into Add/Remove Programs? Ubuntu's package manager sort of offers this functionality, but program names are very cryptic and there are multiple listings for the same application....

PC usability has a long way to go. Cause let's face it, the absolute easiest kind of software to install is Malware. If usability of PC's doesn't start to scale with functionality any time soon, we're going to see cell phones (with their ridiculous, invented on the spot surcharges) replace the desktop a whole lot sooner than you'd think.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[maxume]

Lots of people. I don't happen to use Outlook, but I do it all the time.

They even changed the functionality after user observation showed that a lot of people used it to check dates:

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Date-and-Time-Settings-in-Vista-38465.shtml

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[ragefan]

How do you "know what you're looking for" without searching the web exactly?

It's worth noting that Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities as they could, but their hands are tied thanks to those who whined to the DOJ.

Why is searching the web a problem? If I need to find an app in Linux that does whatever. Almost always searching: "Linux <whatever I want to do>" will give me at least 1 or 2 applications that do that. I could in fact replace Linux with KDE, Gnome or XFCE depending on which DE I'm using.

And to say the one shouldn't have to search for an application to run is absurd. No one is born knowing which applications do what in Windows, they learn either from searching or asking someone. Which is what they would do in Linux too.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[AvitarX]

What does hardware that doesn't support Linux have to do with installing software that is supported?

Or finding the program for a function.

If the device worked, 2 programs that look easy enough are "cheese" and "camorama", top two that come up when searching webcam in add/remove programs.

Of course if your device doesn't show up at all it is a completely different situation. My only point was that finding the right program is not as hard as advertised, getting hardware that doesn't "just work" is different (for example I still can't get my shuttle PN-15 to work, I just gave up and ran a cable, even though it should work).

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Anonymous Coward]

It's worth noting that Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities as they could, but their hands are tied thanks to those who whined to the DOJ.

Fancy 'whining' about MS using its monopoly to illegally put its competitors out of business! You should take it like a man, go bankrupt and allow MS to break the law with impunity.

Asshat.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[hherb]

Here's the problem from a usability standpoint: I want to install a media player. I don't know that I need to install mplayer, xine or totem. (What is a totem and WTF does it have to do with playing media? WTF is a xine anyhow?) THe 'Add/Remove Programs' in Ubuntu addresses some of this, but try installing an app that plays podcasts WITHOUT KNOWING that democracyplayer and VLC play podcasts. apt-cache search podcast

or enter "podcast" as a search term in your GUI software installation tool. How hard is this? Certainly easier than strolling through dozens of software shops or dredging the web

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[tmalone]

No, Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many MICROSOFT utilities as they could. Back in the day they would practically put a hit out on any PC vendor who was caught bundling Netscape. If the DOJ hadn't intervened we wouldn't have Dells and Thinkpads with Linux preinstalled. Hell, I wouldn't have been shocked if they had tried to play hardball in someway with Intel helping out Apple. Maybe a little function that checks the CPU vendor (not unlike their "compatibility check" for the windows 3.1 beta) and randomly crashes the machine, but not before showing a blue screen that says, "Your CPU sucks, buy an AMD".

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Bert64]

Exactly..
Gates is not stupid, you can be sure he did his homework and looked at other OS's out there like linux, so what he's saying is - why does our product force you to reboot, when none of the competitors have this burden?

The CEO of a car company won't say "why doesn't our car fly?" but he will ask "why don't our cars come with electric windows?". It's perfectly normal to try to keep up with the competition.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[lucifuge31337]

Reading the letter, it really doesn't sound like anything Gates would say. He's not an end user. As you said, he certainly should know why rebooting would be necessary when updating part of the OS.

I've seen this a few times now. Sure, he certianly knows it's necessary. The point is WHY? Systems exist that don't need this. Why were such poor design decisions made with windows? Why did they decide to do so man other things rather than make it work in a way that is useful to how most people use it?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Applekid]

Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. One of the main goals introduced for Windows 5 (Win2k/XP) was to eliminiate required reboots. By that time in the installed ecosystem, Windows 9x/Me users were having to reboot CONSTANTLY for just about everything. In fact, one of the guidelines to get permission from Microsoft to put the label "Made for Windows XP" on your software product was that the application was not permitted to require the user to reboot.

In reality it still had to be done because of the technical aspects of changing a .dll in use and no safe way to replace it in flight (why not?), but then again getting that stupid little logo on your box wasn't going to trump usability... but at least there was "some" encouragement for developers to find another way.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[bkr1_2k]

How is not knowing the name of the "right" application for the job any different in Linux than it is in Windows? Seriously, why would you think excel had anything to do with spreadsheets? I'll give you Word, but Powerpoint, how about Acrobat? Most application's names don't have much to do with what they actually accomplish.

You learn things in Linux the same way you do in Windows, by asking people who already know. The only reason it seems easy in Windows is because more people know and we've been "brought up" on it.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[stewbacca]

Ask 100 random computer users on the street and 98 of them will tell you Outlook is for email, Word is for typing, Excel is a spreadsheet, etc. etc. Maybe 10 of them will be able to tell you what their media player is called. I think some of you guys need to step out of your shells and realize just what counts as "mainstream" now days.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[tvjunky]

What's an AutoCAD?

I think AutoCAD is fairly straightforward for a CAD application from Autodesk. And I also think "Nero burning ROM" might be one of the nicest software names/puns out there that doesn't feature a recursive acronym.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[mikesd81]

And if you had no idea what it was, would it be for creating programs or creating video and graphics?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Dog-Cow]

You quote the GP saying

depending on which DE I'm using. and then ask if he knows that they are DEs and not a kernel...

Not only that, but you use the term "window managers", which is just ironic, as only one of the 3 is a window manager.

Why do people like you get permission to even use a computer?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[ducomputergeek]

Last week I had a client with an XP pro box that crashed hard. (The HDD physically broke and the needle scratched the crap out of the platters). He had an extra SATA drive and said, "I'm not married to XP, let's install Linux".

Their wifi access system was already running linux and *iux would make the final step of deploying the online ordering system I built for them a bit easier implement. I was up for it. It had been a while since I had dealt with installing Linux for a desktop. I figured things had improved.

Here is how that went: downloaded Fedora 9. Would not install, Kernel panic on boot from DVD. Apparently Fedora and the Intel 945GC chipset hate each other. Saw this "well known issue with DVD install and 945GC". May be an issue, but bottom line: it didn't work out of the box. STRIKE 1

OpenSuSE 11: Would install, but would freeze on hardware probe. Could boot up, but got an error that kernel modules were unable to load and thus the ethernet card would not work, etc.. STRIKE 2

Ubuntu: Owner downloaded and tried installing. Kept pressing enter at the install screen, but it did nothing. We could view the other menus, but try to do an install and it wouldn't let us for some reason. (This may have been a bad burn on the CD) He had read about how great Ubuntu was and decided to see if he could install it. STRIKE 3.

After that, I was thinking there was something else wrong hardware wise with the box. So I took out a FreeBSD 7-0 release disc and it installed, no problems, no hardware errors reported.

It was now the end of the day and the evening shift was getting ready to come in. They needed a box that worked so they could grant wifi access to customers (this is a coffee shop). We had wasted and afternoon, nothing accomplished.

XP Pro went back on the box. It worked. Linux lost a client on the desktop side. And if someone asks about it at the local chamber meeting, guess what he's going to say. "Well we tried 3 different versions of linux, none of them worked. They wouldn't even install."

Yesterday was Round 2. The owner decided to purchase an AMD barebones kit to replace the Intel machine. (He was going to take the XP box home for his kids).

OpenSuSE 11: Would boot, select install, then just a black screen. RESULT: Intentional Pass on Linux, went straight to BSD. This time PC-BSD. The owner had been reluctant on BSD because he had never heard of it and the text base installer scared him a bit with vanilla FBSD.

PC-BSD installed flawlessly and he liked the GUI installer. So easy even he could do it. Flash worked out of the box (a bit choppy on playback), but it works. Only problem was the NV driver would only allow 800x600 screen resolution, so had to use VESA. Not that important since all they are doing is using FireFox and Google Docs. So technically that is a failure as we are unable to use higher resolutions than 1024x768. Even on a wide screen monitor. But it works well enough.

Hell, I was able even able to load their label printer via CUPS and get it to work. In fact, I was really impressed with PC-BSD. It's 2 CD's to download and burn, had everything I needed to get up and running in less than 20 minutes. They have their PBI installer system or you can use the traditional BSD ports system.

Maybe it's just me, but it seems like every time I give Linux another shot I am reminded to why I switched to BSD in 2000 and Mac in 2002 for the desktop.

As far as the memo it's self. It may not have been written by Gates hands, but by someone on his staff and then signed off on. But it can be hard to dictate things to a large development team. I now run a company that does custom development work. A lot of the developers are kids right out of college with CS degrees with technical leads having graduate degrees in CS. Technically, they know their stuff, but left to their own devices can come back with some of the worst stuff from a user stand point you've

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[msuarezalvarez]

KDE and GNOME are *not* window managers. In fact, the window managing code in GNOME, for example, is very much under 2% of the code.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[stewbacca]

I was inclined to think it was fake too until I read the FA. Follow the links. The content comes from public records and Bill was asked to comment on the situation, and he obliged. Unless, of course, a professional journalist for the Post-Intelligencer has enough balls to put his career on the line to fake everything he posted?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[EMH_Mark3]

Either that or it injects music into your eyeballs.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[msuarezalvarez]

That's completely separate from the name making obvious the function, wouldn't you say?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[cowscows]

I don't find it impossible or even unlikely that a CEO that cared about his company at all might try to use the company's products in a way similar to how their customers would experience it. Sure, it's unlikely that they'll get a 100% "authentic" experience, but they could certainly go and jump through some of the hoops they make customers go through, just to see what the experience was like.

I don't think Gates was looking for a copy of Windows moviemaker because he had some video of his last vacation that he wanted to pretty up, he was trying to understand the product that MS had actually released, with the hopes that it could be improved. It's sometimes called "eating your own dog food", and it's not some obscure or exotic management technique. It's a really valid way for a company to evaluate their products, and CEO's that don't at least attempt it probably should.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[mhall119]

But they don't know what those apps are for because of their name, they learned their function first, and then they learned their name. Ask somebody who doesn't know what Excel is what they think it does, and you won't get anything close to a spreadsheet.

A better example would be to ask 100 random people what Visio does, probably less than half could tell you.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[sm62704]

The Joe and Jane Sixpacks of the world don't understand what 1 != l != i. They think it's "stupid" to have to get it right.

IMO Joe and Jane are correct. What's stupid is having a forty digit alphanumeric code you have to type in, with ls and 1s and 0s and Os and Is and any other alphanumeric characters that can be confused interspersed with each other!

Why do you think it took GUIs to get any serious home PC market going?

It didn't. It took apps that made a computer a useful addition to the average home, and PCs that were actually affordable. Normal people don't spend thousands of dollars (which a new PC cost in the '80s) for a home appliance. A good used car cost less than a computer before the GUI age.

And you guys who say that editing a couple of config files isn't a big deal have never seen the wreck that a common user can make of a text document.

I've used Linux since the early '00s (Mandrake, Mandriva, Suse) and never manually edited a config file. You Microsoft shills, Mr Anonymous, should stop with the inaccurate nonsense because people who actually USE Linux are going to call you on it.

I recently had to deal with a college educated professional on the proper way to use the shift key, forgodssake

Unless by "recently" you mean fifteen years ago and by "college educated" you mean "he got his BA in 1970" I'm sorry, but I simply don't believe you. Few of my offline friends are nerds; my friends include hookers, construction workers, bartenders, factory workers, etc. and I don't know a single one that can't use a "shift" key.

Which dividion of Microsoft do you work in, Mr anonymous coward?

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[houghi]

How do you "know what you're looking for" without searching the web exactly?

OK, I have bought a Windows PC with almost no software on it. I am looking for a program where I can draw flowcharts. (Visio)
Also I am looking for the name of the email program (Outlook Express).

If I am not aware of how this program is called I would also need to search for it first.

Compare it with something like http://cybernetnews.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/10/opensuse-gnome.jpg where you have the explanation of what the tool does and the fact that most is either pre-installed or very easily to be found in one location.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Sentry21]

Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here. Say what you like about Gates, but he is, actually, a geek. I don't want to give the man credit, but Joel Spolsky wrote about his first Bill Gates review.

Short form, there was a 'bug' in Excel that was there for compatibility with Lotus 123, which erroneously treated 1900 as a leap year. This broke January and February of that year, but otherwise worked perfectly.

Spolsky found the bug after sending his spec to Bill Gates, who, apparently, not only read the whole thing, but marked it up with notes in the margins. At his review with Bill, the questions kept getting harder, until finally he asked if the date and time stuff was going to work properly. Joel's answer, of course, was 'Yes, except for January and February, 1900'. This satisfied Gates, and he got up and left.

Gates knew the problem was there. He knew that was a gotcha that was in the code, and he likely knew why it was there and who put it there. He's a programmer, like it or not. His company makes shitty products for a variety of reasons, but Gates himself is (or was) a programmer.

I'm certain he knew full well why he had to reboot. His point wasn't to try to fill in information, his point was to outline the absurdity of restarting your system, over and over and over again, just to make a movie. Sounds pragmatic to me.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[JohnBailey]

Honestly I wish they could. It would be a better experience for all. Instead of having to purchase 50 billion utilities because of anti-trust laws, Windows would be a full-fledged operating system out of the box, and not just a fancy user interface. You mean a fully fledged platform out of the box. All an OS does is provide a layer between the hardware and software so that the apps don't have to do all the heavy lifting in their own unique way for each and every type of hardware. Imagine if you had to download a different driver for each app to use your printer/scanner/video card/ sound card etc. and need a different driver for each DVD writer and drive. Everything else is just gravy. We have got used to media players, browsers, email clients etc being bundled with the OS, but they are not actually part of it, or shouldn't be.

And say what you want about security and bugs. I have used Linux before, and if anyone suggests it doesn't have its issues (or vulnerabilities), please put down the bong. True.. Nothing is perfect. But what you are suggesting is for Microsoft or some other OS company of the future to completely take over the entire software market. The internet would be the Microsoft internet. Microsoft Photo editor instead of Photoshop, with added "innovation" to the UI every version, so everyone would have to relearn it. No more cameras with removable cards that just plug into a reader. No HTML editors but the ones that do MS only code etc. great for the company that is providing everything, but pretty crap for the users. The problem with the DOJ is that they chickened out in the end and didn't break up Microsoft into OS and apps.

Diversity is good. It stimulates the market into competing for user share. Even if you choose not to use a competitor's product, you still gain from the MS or whoever improving and updating their products to keep customers and attract new ones.

Proof positive.. Look at IE. Nothing for years after IE6, but then when Firefox and others started getting too big to ignore, IE7 arrives on the scene. Without any other browser existing, you would still be using IE6 for the next decade.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[kellyb9]

True, but in defense of Windows (wow.. did I just say that?), I've never had to compile anything from source nor do you have to use any kind of command line instructions (unless you want to... Ironically I always find myself using Linux commands by mistake). Installations are pretty intuitive in Windows.

The software repositories are nice in Linux, but I'd wonder how many people would realize they were there, assuming they were new, inexperienced users. I've always thought it would be great idea for Windows to provide something comparable. Might help limit the amount malware people get.

Lastly, you make the argument that Linux comes with those programs out of the box. Actually, you said Ubuntu comes with those programs. It seems to me, most Linux distro's only come with the bare necessities (Browser, Productivity Software, Media Player, Etc.). Windows typically has all of these, PLUS a bunch of crap you'll never need, use, or want.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Darfeld]

Well that's what synaptics is for, isn't it?

Or even "better" the software install/remove utility. You even have to touche your keyboard to use it. I damn know well how people can be stupid or fake to be when it come to computer of all things but this is just dumb easy.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[penguinbrat]

That's exactly what I said. Finding the product is the same on Windows and Linux, but at least Linux *has* the index and package manager right there, so it's no worse.

Umm, under Linux the software is 99% OSS and downloadable and fully functional - the most you have to go through is agreeing to a EULA. You search under yum, apt-get, emerge, etc... find the description you want, install and use...

Under Windows, you search and sort through *AT LEAST* 50% commercial/shareware packages that are crippled until you purchase it.

The last time I tried this, I went through 1/2 dozen apps, and dozens of websites to just burn a cd image quickly/easily...

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[bsDaemon]

People who don't know what CAD is aren't going to be buying AutoCAD (at least, they shouldn't be -- its expensive and they'll be sorely disappointed).

Automatic Computer Aided Design is a hell of a lot more descriptive than Visual Studio to the casual glance. Yes -- a studio where I work visually -- doing what?

I know its an IDE, but I also know that about NetBeans and Eclipse.

At least WinAmp (Windows Amplifier) sounds like it might have something to do with music.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[jcnnghm]

Except it's definitely not fake since Gates himself said he routinely writes internal messages like that, and it was entered as evidence in a recent court case. As far as not sounding like his usual style, of course it doesn't.

It was probably written as quickly as possible, and never edited. It doesn't make sense for the CEO to spend time editing when they can get the thoughts out faster and get on to the next big thing.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Enoxice]

Point being, they are mainstream with ridiculous names. Therefore, descriptive names aren't a marker of whether a program is/can be popular or not.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[ShieldW0lf]

Almost always searching: "Linux " will give me at least 1 or 2 applications that do that. I could in fact replace Linux with KDE, Gnome or XFCE depending on which DE I'm using.

You do understand, of course, that KDE, Gnome, and XFCE are windows managers and not operating systems right?

He was trying to say, he can search for "Gnome " in a search engine just as easily. The difference being, if he finds something interesting, he can use a package manager to install it and get to work.

If he was using, say, Windows, he'd most likely download an install file, run it through a virus scanner, execute it, click 15 different buttons, have his personal information sent to some corporate server, get nagged to buy the upgraded version, download a crack, run it through a virus scanner, execute it, have a rootkit installed, have 10 different pieces of spyware installed, have his personal information sent to some criminals server, be bombarded with pornographic popups, throw his computer out the window, go outside for a cigarette with hands shaking in rage and smash his head off the nearest wall until the endorphins cause him to forget why he was so upset.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[norminator]

I don't think we should neglect to point out, also, that the Add/Remove Programs dialog in Windows can't really be used to Add programs... (well, it does give you a button to push if you're installing from a CD or a Floppy... as if anyone is installing programs from floppies). It certainly isn't a repository of programs for Windows that can be downloaded and installed quickly and easily, and it doesn't help you to install programs you've already downloaded. So calling it Add/Remove Programs is kind of a usability problem on its own.

I'm pretty sure that very, very few people have ever used Add/Remove Programs in Windows to add a program, since the people who would need that kind of assistance would have Autorun turned on anyway, so the install program would launch when they put the CD in, long before the Add/Remove Programs dialog finishes loading.

Hence, Add/Remove Programs in Windows is really just Remove Programs. And considering that 3rd party tools (e.g., Revo Uninstaller, etc.) do a better job of actually completely removing programs, it really doesn't even do that very well.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[D Ninja]

Ooo...this is too much fun...

What's a Google? A whole freaken ton of answers. With advertising!

What's a Yahoo!? What you scream when you've just won the lottery.

What's a WinAmp? A speaker system facing out of a college dorm window.

What's a Slashdot? A fancy name for a DDOS attack.

What's a Firefox? A fox that got caught in the hen house and paid for it.

What's an eBay? Where eShips pull into the ePort.

What's a NewEgg? One that has been recently laid. (Duh?)

What's a Lightwave? Something that travels faster than a Soundwave.

What's a Nero? Nemo's long lost brother.

What's an Outlook Express? The biggest POS ever.

What's a Visual Studio? A room with "LIVE CAMERA WEB FEEDS!"

What's an AutoCAD? The instant response to a blue screen in Windows. (Auto Ctrl+Alt+Del)

Thank you! I'll be here all week. Try the veal.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Endo13]

Which is precisely why so many people end up pirating software like that. Sadly, it's much quicker and more convenient to just download the first crippled software that does what you want, then find a key to un-cripple it than it is to actually keep looking for a free one. And you know there's no way in hell the average geek (or most other people for that matter) is going to pay $50 for some small program he might never use more than once.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[BruceCage]

Not only that, but you use the term "window managers", which is just ironic, as only one of the 3 is a window manager.

Actually all of those mentioned are Desktop Environments (DEs). Here's a list of desktop environments and their default window managers:

• GNOME -- Metacity
• KDE -- Kwin
• Xfce -- xfwm (or 'XFce Window Manager')

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[poot_rootbeer]

If this stuff had leaked out to everyone in the company, who knows what it would have done for morale?

Nevermind that -- would would it have done to his own net worth!

Public admission that Microsoft is failing to meet quality expectations = drop in MSFT stock price = Gates' massive stock holdings lose value.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[geekoid]

"love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities as they could"

Based on their history, I doubt that.
Why aren't all these amazing utilities available fro free download from their site?
Compared to Every other system, they have always been stingy with the 'free' utilities and apps.

MS got bitched slapped because of their bad behavior, don't push that off on other people, it's MSs fault.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[PitaBred]

Are you sure that wasn't a trial version? The only "free" Office suite that I've seen come with Windows is the steaming pile of crap that is Works.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[bflong]

OK, every once in a while I see these kinds of posts. I really don't know what to say.
I've been using Linux for more then 10 years. I've installed it on pc's from 386's to modern multicore servers with 4x cpus. I've got an office full of workstations running Kubuntu that are used every day, some 24x7x365. In all these years, and the hundreds of pc's I've installed some version of Linux on, I have NEVER, EVER seen ANYTHING like what this and some other posts mention. I've seen the install crap out in the middle due to a bad cd burn. I've seen incompatible hardware. I've seen qwerks with some chipsets that required a custom boot parameter to work. But this wholesale failure I have never seen. Ever.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Moofie]

"What does hardware that doesn't support Linux have to do with installing software that is supported?"

Because users don't care whether it's a hardware problem or a software problem: it's a problem, and they want the problem to go away.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[laffer1]

Windows doesn't come with a lot of crap, new PCs come with a lot of crap. That will change as linux moves into the desktop.

People complained when Microsoft started shipping a browser, media player, etc in windows, and now it's a standard thing to do in most operating systems. Now people are using it in favor of linux? You also have the problem of people liking different software. OSS gives you a lot of choice, and in turn what do you ship? User A likes Firefox, and user B likes konquerer, and then user C has a slow PC and wants to use Opera 9.2.x. That's just browser software. Some of us only use things like lynx or links.

I find it difficult to actually choose what to bundle with MidnightBSD. No matter what I pick, I lose someone who hates "bloat". If I don't ship any browser, I get pissed off users who don't want to spend five minutes downloading packages.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Spy der Mann]

The problem isn't the "free bundle". The problem is the product's price. Microsoft asks you to pay $300 because they ARE a monopoly. Fortunately, we now have alternatives like Openoffice.org. 7 years ago Openoffice was a crashing hell. Today I use it regularly, and altho it still has glitches (like floating toolbar residues stamped in the document) and usability issues (like the "center" button disappearing from the toolbar whenever i click on an inline image), i'm glad I can export my documents into PDF without having to pay four hundred freaking dollars to Microsoft and Adobe for that.

The $300 dollars you complain about isn't the DOJ's fault. It's the companies' fault. They keep overpricing their infinite goods. Just like the RIAA.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[vagabond_gr]

Lastly, you make the argument that Linux comes with those programs out of the box. Actually, you said Ubuntu comes with those programs. It seems to me, most Linux distro's only come with the bare necessities (Browser, Productivity Software, Media Player, Etc.). Windows typically has all of these, PLUS a bunch of crap you'll never need, use, or want. You must be kidding, aren't you? Out of the box Ubuntu gives you:
  - OpenOffice
  - GIMP
  - Movie Player (admittedly you have to install a couple of packages to full-format support, but then you play virtually anything. it's also easy to install VLC).
  - Evolution
  - K3B
  - F-Spot
  - CD-extractor
  - CD creator
  - Trnasmission

And so many others are *directly installable* under Applications-Add/Remove. Not so easy to miss.

So do you compare those with what? Paint and WordPad? The only Windows pre-installed software worth something is Media Player. And Internet Explorer (to download firefox).

PS. This is about Windows XP. I have no experience of Vista.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Risen888]

Yeah, like Amarok, Okular, gmusicbrowser, KDE 4, Compiz...oh wait.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Frantix]

That hyperbole insightful?

I generally find apps that work well that are freeware which require no upgrade, no cracks or other "nags" and I generally drop a few dollars their way if I find it valuable.

A virus scan is completed in the background when the file is downloaded so I'm not nagged with that.

The final part about the spyware and popups is generally the result of a person going to a crack site and downloading everything but the crack, WHICH isn't needed because it's freeware.

I'd say by most of your message that while you've closely followed Linux you've not taken the time to update your knowledge of Windows and are comparing from about the time Windows 95/98 was on most desktops.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[wanderingknight]

The fact that programs HAVE dependencies with other programs is the whole point of Free Software.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[networkconsultant]

Hey I'm not saying they aren't clones of something else, or that they do not work as well, some things on Linux are nice and orginial. But Linux itself is a clone of Minix and has evolved into the plaything of the enterprise.
The application determines the software choice!
Linux makes an excellent LAMP platform, it's an excellent server but I have 15,000 or more windows boxes, I'm not about to sell my clients a "Samba" based PDC setup.
The difference between Linux and windows is simple One works well on the desktop and the other requires extensive support, and works well in other areas.
Redhat ceased supporting their desktop line for a reason, Corel sold it's desktop version after a bribe from Microsoft; or how about the fact that this man quit designing linux patches for the desktop completely even though he is an adept and talented programmer?
Funny how good developers quit developing for linux"
Politics are involved in all desktop decisions, and I can't get a good visio clone in Linux, nor can I have an good enterprise level of CAD without having to use an unsupported intermediary (wine).
That does not mean I don't use Gentoo, or build application specific firewalls in OpenBSD, or use it where appropirate.
Linux Zelotry is why people don't like it, the arrogence associated with the "Well it needs to work this way"...and all the diffrering opinions and infighting in the Open Source Development Community are what keep windows around, not the fact that windows is a bad product.
Those that sign the purchase orders want somthing a little more secure than "The community may release a fix if and when supported". Then there are business model issues as well, but I digrees.
The fact that this message will be posted as "Flamebait" is the perfect example of why linux fails at the desktop, because you the community are quick to judge and flame.
those that just want a product to work get fed up and leave for OS-X, BSD, and Yes even Microsoft.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Hawke666]

That's not entirely true. On a Active Directory domain, it's possible for the domain administrators to publish apps (MSI files) out to their users, which can be installed through Add/Remove Programs. But I do agree that in the common case, add/remove cannot add programs.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Undead NDR]

Yes, but within reasonable limits. If I have to install the whole KDE just to have a decent CD-burning GUI program, we're far off those reasonable limits.

And the end result is that I use `cdrecord` from the command line.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Reckless Visionary]

The fact that programs HAVE dependencies with other programs is the whole point of Free Software. I'd love to capture all the phrases that end with "is the whole point of Free Software" and have all the authors battle it out. Now that would fun.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[rantingkitten]

I've never had to compile anything from source

I can't remember the last time I've "had to" compile anything from source under Linux. That's what apt (or whatever package manager) is for. The only times I compile things from source are when I feel like it because I'm being geeky, or when it's some really esoteric package that, frankly, you wouldn't even have under Windows (hydra comes to mind).

Nor do you "have to" use the command line in Linux these days for 99% of what I'll call "user operations". Things a typical user would do -- check email, use the web, chat online, watch a movie, write a paper, work on a spreadsheet. You know. Gnome and KDE both make it as point and click simple as Windows. The command line is only "necessary" when you're performing certain operations that a typical user would never, ever, ever do -- for example I use it for running network diagnostics and packet captures and so forth.

It seems to me, most Linux distro's only come with the bare necessities (Browser, Productivity Software, Media Player, Etc.). Windows typically has all of these,

You've got it backwards. A fresh install of, say, Ubuntu, has a nice mp3/music player, mail client, web browser, Office suite, multiprotocol IM client, photo manipulation program, and a bunch of other useful stuff already there, out of the box, ready to go. Most of it will serve the average user's needs already, without the need to go hunting around for additional software. If they do need something else, it's a few mouse clicks to get it installed, and you know it'll work. You don't have to search the web, find a boatload of corporate software that makes you register, pay, dance, and swear off your first born, then leaves all kinds of horseshit little icons, shortcuts, systray "helpers", and additional programs you don't want.

A fresh install of Windows has, well, nothing really. Windows Media Player is a freaking joke, but I guess it plays music. Outlook Express is also a joke, but okay, I guess it checks mail, sorta. Other than that, where's the "Office suite" -- Wordpad? Where's the DVD player? Where's the IM client? If you consider IE to be a viable browser, that's your own lookout, but really, Windows on a fresh install is about as bare-bones, minimally usable as can be. Anything you want, you have to go find for yourself, download, install, register, pay, crack, steal, and then clean up the mess each installer leaves behind.

Finally, you say "Installations are pretty intuitive in Windows." I had to laugh. Let me plug myself a moment and explain why Ubuntu is easier to install than Windows, both the OS and the applications. These are side-by-side comparisions I did while installing each, with what I hope are reasonable expectations.

But if you don't believe me, ask yourself this: Why are users always bitching that their computers are "slow" and so forth? Because Windows lets any application install anything it wants, anywhere it wants, screw with the registry however it wants, load whatever memory-hogging additional "features" it wants, and within short order, the user -- not knowing how to clean up -- ends up with a machine bogged down with ungodly amounts of crapware.

Linux distros, on the other hand, do not have this problem and never will. To screw up a modern Linux system in the same way you really, really have to know what you're doing, and go out of your way to do it.

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Peaker]

You don't have to do it, apt does it for you :-)

Seriously, why do you care?

apt-get install k3b, and it just works!

Re:Then STOP releasing the product!

[Sir_Lewk]

The GNU GPL is not a EULA. You only need to abide by it if you intend on distributing.

Funny thing about MovieMaker

[morgan_greywolf]

The funny thing is that on XP you still have to install Service Pack 2 to get MovieMaker. You can't just download it separately. Oh, well, you can order it on CD, too, I guess, but who wants to do that?

My God...

[FoolsGold]

That's such a loaded and flamebait-ridden summary it's not even funny. Linux has plenty of usability issues, just like Windows - the quirks are just in different places.

Still, assuming the email is real of course, it's always nice to see the boss appreciate the problems from the regular user's perspective.

Re:My God...

[Lisandro]

Still, assuming the email is real of course, it's always nice to see the boss appreciate the problems from the regular user's perspective.

I was thinking the same - posting this story on /. is calling for the usual Microsoft bashing, but if the mail's real we should congratulate Gates. We need more bosses putting themselves on the end user shoes.

Re:My God...

[TheRaven64]

The point is not that Windows has UI problems, it's that senior people at Microsoft knew it had serious UI problems back in 2003 and five years later the situation has not improved. This says some quite damning things about the development process at Microsoft - they can identify problems, designate resources to fixing them, and still fail after five years.

He didn't say to not sell it

[192939495969798999]

q: How do you make a billion dollars?

a: no matter who complains about how crappy the new version of your product is, force its purchase onto your captive audience anyhow. Yay!

I thought this was a joke until I read this part..

[Valtor]

Wow! I thought this was a joke until I read this part

When Seattle Pi recently asked Gates about the email, he replied, "There's not a day that I don't send a piece of e-mail ... like that piece of e-mail. That's my job."

Could be worse

[Anonymous Coward]

I wish the managers where I work used our product from time to time, and maybe paid attention to how the software is written.

They seem to think that our main product is power point slides, which in the case of Mr (or is it Sir) Gates would probably be true.

Anyway good on him for paying attention to the job at hand.

Re:100% fake

[Anonymous Coward]

That is NOT Gate's writing style and there are several mistakes as well that point to someone other than gates wrote the letter.

"I go to microsoft.com they have a download center" HUH? Cince when does the Head executive of the company refer to the company as "they" instead of "we"? I have never seen it even down to the grunt level.

This "secret memo" is bunk. it is in no way Bill Gates' writing.

Except this was entered as evidence in the DoJ trial. It's real and on the books.

The scary part

[hcdejong]

At the end of the piece, it says,

When Seattle Pi recently asked Gates about the email, he replied, "There's not a day that I don't send a piece of e-mail ... like that piece of e-mail. That's my job." The founder, then-CEO and General Chief LordofitAll fires off irate messages on a daily basis, but the whole company steadfastly ignores him and continues to crank out crap?
Maybe the competent MS employees have long ago committed harakiri in shame, and whoever's left Just Don't Care...

Re:100% fake

[stevied]

I didn't think it sounded much like him, either, but googling the subject turned up this (google cache version), which seems to make it more plausible ..

Its real. Here are the links

[jocknerd]

The originial article: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/archives/141821.asp

Here are the responses from within Microsoft: http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/library/2003Jangatesmoviemaker.pdf

Re:100% fake

[Anonymous Coward]

The email is real. It's in the court documents from the Comes vs Microsoft case. You can find it in PX07199.pdf from http://edge-op.org/iowa/www.iowaconsumercase.org/011607/7000/

Re:100% fake

[setagllib]

Um, you realise he confirmed it personally as part of an interview, right? RTFA much?

"When Seattle Pi recently asked Gates about the email, he replied, "There's not a day that I don't send a piece of e-mail ... like that piece of e-mail. That's my job." There was no mention as to whether or not Gates had time to take names."

Re:100% fake

[daffmeister]

According to Seattle P-I this is the original.

Sure looks like a DoJ-entered piece of evidence.

website rant

[shird]

This is a rant about micrsoft.*com* - the website (and related update sites etc). It isn't about Microsoft itself, or its applications and operating systems. It's about the usability of the microsoft.com website and download services - which are probably largely outsourced to a few kids in India. It has nothing to do with "how bad Vista is" or lessons learned from XP.

Re:website rant

[Don_dumb]

This is a rant about micrsoft.*com* - the website (and related update sites etc). It isn't about Microsoft itself, or its applications and operating systems. It's about the usability of the microsoft.com website and download services - which are probably largely outsourced to a few kids in India. It has nothing to do with "how bad Vista is" or lessons learned from XP.

Except for that whole Windows Update forcing you to reboot your computer bit, the download locking up his computer, the problems of garbage turning up in the Add/Remove Programs utility but not Moviemaker, the rant about Add/Remove being the only decent thing left with XP.

So no, other than about half of the email, it has nothing to do with XP.

Gates, you have to do this differently

[Simon (S2)]

I tried scoping to Media stuff. Still no moviemaker. I typed in movie. Nothing. I typed in movie maker. Nothing. It does not work like that. You have to google moviemaker download. There you go. First hit :)

Re:Gates, you have to do this differently

[nine-times]

That is funny and all, but it still points you to Windows Update, which means you're still going to spend 20 minutes waiting for the pages to load, get prompted to install a bunch of other updates, and probably reboot a few times.

Incidentally, the same search gives you the same link on Microsoft's Live search.

Re:Gates, you have to do this differently

[Anonymous Custard]

It does not work like that. You have to google moviemaker download. There you go. First hit :) Yeah but did you actually visit that first hit?

In the download section on that page, it reads:

Download Instructions

Movie Maker 2.1 is available for download with Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2). You can download SP2, Movie Maker 2.1, and all future critical updates automatically by turning on the Automatic Updates feature in Windows XP.

You can also download SP2 and Movie Maker 2.1 from Microsoft Update. If you cannot use Automatic Updates or download SP2 via Windows Update, order a CD.

And in the sidebar, it also reads:

Download Movie Maker 2.1 for Windows XP

Movie Maker 2.1 is available for download with Windows XP Service Pack 2 (SP2).

You can download SP2 and all future critical updates automatically by turning on the Automatic Updates feature in Windows XP.

You can also download SP2 and Movie Maker 2.1 from Microsoft Update.

Updated: August 25, 2004

So yeah.... from a page called "Windows Movie Maker 2.1 Download", there is no link to download anything.

Isn't a time to change M$ /. icon?

[hotfireball]

BTW, folks, how about replace on slashdot that Bill's mug with Ballmer's physiognomy? :)

Re:100% fake

[x_MeRLiN_x]

Let me make sure I have this right.. A respectable news outlet conducts an interview with Bill Gates, asks him if it's genuine, and he explains that it's his job to make criticism of this nature. So, are we supposed to believe you - irrespective of your "100%" certainty that's based on nothing but speculation - or Bill Gates himself?

Another rant by Microsoft-hater, who cares?

[Anonymous Coward]

This billg guy is a known troll that bashes Windows at every opportunity. Remember him showing off Windows 95 and publicly making it bluescreen in front of an audience?

Re:It's a FAAAAAAAAKE!

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't you feel silly now after that pointless rant that it turns out to be real and part of the released court documents from the Comes vs Microsoft case?

Maybe you think too much of the difficulties...

[brunes69]

First, I am not sure that email is really by Gates -- from reading his writing or listening to him in the past, it really does not sound like his style. Also, "I reboot my computer ... why should I have to reboot my computer?" I find it hard to realize that he wouldn't know the technical difficulties in replacing a dll while the system is running, and possible ways around this, and the current state of affairs. However, maybe I'm giving too much credit here.

What he is probably alluding to is the fact that every other operating system under the sun (Linux, Sun, SPARC, Mac OSX, BSD) can replace 95% of the OS without rebooting. Only windows requires you to reboot to do something stupid like replace a DLL. I can overwrite any .SO in my OS without rebooting - this is something the UNix world figured out a long time ago (deref the file pointer, write the new file. People using the old pointer can continue to do so, newly started apps use the new pointer. Once install of software is complete, restart software impacted).

The only thing that should require a reboot is replacing the kernel itself or a low-level IO driver.

Re:Maybe you think too much of the difficulties...

[zippthorne]

This doesn't seem to have reduced the number of "reboot required"s in patches to the latest Ubuntu release...

Re:Maybe you think too much of the difficulties...

[Just Some Guy]

This doesn't seem to have reduced the number of "reboot required"s in patches to the latest Ubuntu release...

Most of those have been kernel updates. Until the hot-patch system is released, there's not much you can do about that.

Re:Its real. Here are the links

[Sockatume]

The file he links to is rather older than that blog article, featuring on this website discussing the case Comes vs. Microsoft. It was one of several thousand files submitted as evidence by the plaintiffs, specifically in this batch (file PX07199). This was a case back in 2007. Seeing as the version from 2007 has an evidence stamp, and the blog version doesn't, I suspect they're both copies of some original pdf found on the internet and therefore the veracity is still unclear.

Re:100% fake

[telchine]

"I go to microsoft.com they have a download center" HUH? Cince when does the Head executive of the company refer to the company as "they" instead of "we"?

He's not referring to the company, he's referring to "Microsoft.com" which is the internal name of the team that manages the web site. If you look at the original document, you'll see that web department is referenced as "Microsoft.com" on multiple occasions.

Microsoft has company

[bogaboga]

It's not Microsoft alone! This kind of frustration happens on the Linux platform everyday. Try setting up a printer...even that supported by Linux. You get into issues like CUPS as if you are supposed to know what the OS is gonna use to get the printer setup.

For God's sake...if I want to setup a printer, it should be the system's job to install ALL software needed to get it working. What is so difficult in that?

...Windows usability issues, and in many cases our experiences have driven many us over to Linux, or kept us there...

Let me remind the author of that line that we Linux users have still not made a dent on the desktop market. I can say, we are economically insignificant. This is despite perceived flaws in Windows. And by the way, Bill Gates was not frustrated over Windows in particular...he appears to have been frustrated by confusing names and un-necessary questions on the Windows website.

Assume it's real... so what?

[JustASlashDotGuy]

What we have here is the boss complaining about the design of their own product. How is this news?

Is it only news because the slashdot kiddies find any reason to laugh at MS? Or is is news because no other company CEO ever complains about any products their company produces?

I have a dirty secret to admit. I have received an email from the big boss in the past complaining about features implemented by a product we produce. I feel dirty, obviously I'm in the minority. If I submit it to Slashdot, do you think it will make the front page?

Re:Assume it's real... so what?

[mckorr]

I think it has more to do with Gates leaving Microsoft than it does with bashing. The article is just a reflection of some of the things that happened during his reign, and the OP found it interesting enough to bring it here. The whole article, not just the email, which could have been posted as a link to the PDF.

And yes, if your boss is the richest man on the planet and a household name that email he sent you will certainly make the front page.

Re:100% fake

[jcupitt65]

this was entered as evidence in the DoJ trial. It's real and on the books.

Here's a PDF of the original, together with the replies, as submitted to the trial.

http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/microsoft/library/2003Jangatesmoviemaker.pdf

Re:Its real. Here are the links

[xtracto]

Here, Knock yourself out

The specific exhibit (7199) is found near here

And if you doubt me (after all, who is this xtracto guy), the page is linked from groklaw. Maybe they are more thrustworthy than myself?

Re:I thought this was a joke until I read this par

[mbone]

Or anything else that you can wedge between those two parts and still have it make some kind of sense.

This could go in Mad Magazine - they do a feature like this regularly. Here are some more choices (pick one from each)

There's not a day that I don't send a piece of e-mail

[after I've smoked 5 joints | praising Satan | from my Mac Book | blasting the idiots who work for me | bidding on a small island nation | trying to destroy slashdot ]

but

[only an idiot would think I wrote something | I've never been stoned enough to write anything | the PI reporter must have been really blasted to make up dreck | only my evil twin writes | Steve Jobs was in my office and sent out a bunch of stuff]

like that piece of e-mail.

Re:100% fake

[setagllib]

Easy there, there's no need to attack my English because I interpret the incomplete statement differently to you. Fake or not, it was used as empiric evidence in a trial, which really suggests I'm not the only one who thinks that, yes, it really could be real.

Don't nitpick words spoken in anger

[Thomasje]

People tend not to stick to their usual style when they're angry, and after the installation nightmare described in the memo, anyone would be pissed.
As far as Gates referring to the microsoft.com web site team as "they" is concerned: I work for a large company (100,000+ employees) and nobody uses "we" vs. "they" consistently. "We" can mean "our team", "our division", "the company" -- but at the same time "they" can refer to any subset of those people as well: "our servers are really slow today... I wish the admins would figure it out already. They need to get their act together."

Re:What am I doing wrong?

[BobMcD]

My guess would be that your perspective is somehow twisted by a superior knowledge and/or appreciation for Windows.

For example:

except once, and I had used a beta driver, so you can't really blame Windows for that Actually, yes, you really could blame Windows that using this driver resulted in a crash. A more graceful solution doesn't really take all that much imagination.

Likewise, you may not have ever had occasion to experience some of the particularly common nasties:

You may have never lost a motherboard - otherwise you would have experienced the painful fight-the-bluescreen vs reinstall decision.

You may not have used IE 4 (or 5, or 6) as suggested by Windows - otherwise the pop-ups and spyware would have created a mess you would have had to clean up by now.

You may not have automatic updates turned on - otherwise you would have been forced to do an undesired reboot at least once by now.

You may have disabled UAC, or never used Vista at all - otherwise you would have been prompted as many as four times to approve the same action.

You may not ever Alt+Tab in Vista - otherwise you would have seen 'Explorer is not responding' at least once by now...

The list goes on and on and on...

Chances are, either your skills are high enough that none of the above is painful, or you just plain don't mind it - taking the good with the bad.

Others are in a totally different boat, my friend, I assure you.

The bundle without a key

[Mathinker]

...Microsoft would love nothing more than to bundle as many free utilities which lock you into using Windows as they could...

There, fixed that for you.

Oh, and they have also been known to try to generate income from those "free utilities" via indirect mechanisms (like IE directing you to MSN search in various situations, etc.), based on their control of your user experience.

Re:The bundle without a key

[Z34107]

Ooooh, solitaire and and wmplayer are going to "lock you into using Windows." I'd be doing maths in reverse polish notation were it not for calc.exe locking me into Microsoft's maths!

I might have believed iexplore and winword. Except that you have to buy Word, that Internet Explorer's homepage and search are changeable, and if you care, you can just use Firefox anyway.

The default Firefox homepage is Google, and the default Firefox search provider is Google, and Firefox does things like "directing me to Google search in various situations." Somehow, I'm not worried about the Mozilla Foundation (funded in part by Google) getting trying to "generate income from those 'free utilities' via indirect mechanisms."

Re:The bundle without a key

[elrous0]

IF MS really wanted to lock you into Windows, they could have broken Netscape or any of their other competitors at any time. It would have been trivial to make newer versions of Windows incompatible with competing browsers, media players, etc. or required MS licensing for all software to run on the OS. But they never did.

Now, you can say it's unfair that they bundled their own apps with Windows, but that makes them no different that any other OS (including IBM, Apple, and pretty much every Linux distro).

Re:The bundle without a key

[elrous0]

Actually, with IBM, I was referring to OS/2 Warp, which was available stand-alone just the same as Windows was (you didn't have to buy IBM hardware to get it). And it came with plenty of apps too (I used in myself back in 1994, and it was better than the crappy Win 3.1 that came with my system).

Re:The bundle without a key

[Rary]

There was a saying that "DOS isn't done until Lotus won't run". Back when Lotus 1-2-3 was MS' biggest software competitor, every new version of DOS would have some "feature" that would cause Lotus 1-2-3 to "break".

A cute phrase and an oft-repeated anecdote, but according to people at Lotus, it's completely false.

Re:The bundle without a key

[Mathinker]

OK, personally I believe your post deserves a reply (as opposed to the negative mod you got).

1) Any application which you have to learn to use has a degree of lock-in, which is the cost of learning to use a different application to gain the same functionality. This point holds in varying degrees for 3 out of the 4 applications which you list: wmplayer, iexplore, and winword. Mostly for winword, but as you correctly point out, it doesn't come bundled free with Windows. So I will stop worrying about winword...

2) Any application which manipulates or displays documents in proprietary formats has a degree of lock-in; either in your information getting stuck in those formats, or in your not being able to access information sent to you in those formats. Again, this point holds in varying degrees for 2 out of the 3 free applications which you list: wmplayer and iexplore.

• wmplayer : its monopoly in being able to display various DRM formats controlled by MS, and proprietary MS specific codecs is a form of lock-in.
• iexplorer : its well-known lack of standard compliance means that people need to use it to display web pages which only display properly in it (one could think of this as a proprietary mutation of the HTML format), a form of lock-in.

3) As you astutely point out, many companies, not just MS, generate income indirectly from free products. It doesn't bother me that MS does this, my reply was more to set things straight than to complain. The poster I replied to implied that MS was dying, out of the goodness of their hearts, to supply these "free utilities" and the evil DOJ was preventing them from being so altruistically helpful. My post was attempting to put that in a more realistic light.

If it's really him...

[EastCoastSurfer]

then this is the one of the best lines ever!

So they told me that using the download page to download something was not something they anticipated.

Real. Life. Dilbert.

Keep in mind...

[GameboyRMH]

...that the guy was pissed off, and trying to point out usability issues the average Joe would have. I'm sure he knows how to get his operating system and websites (well maybe not websites, MS sites are largely a mess in my experience) to do what he wants, but the vast majority of Windows users aren't experts and would get fed up very quickly at running the gamut of crap in the Windows Update process (and rightly so) or trying to trick an MS website into turning up the information they want (my approach is to use Google instead of the MS site search tool). In fact I would say his email, while perhaps poorly written (as most pissed-off emails are), is quite insightful in that sense. He picked out the things that would piss of Granny Web Surfer instead of suffering through it because he understood the complex things going on in the background. When WinUpdate basically forced him to restart, he didn't think "Well I guess this is reasonable, the new DLLs have to load on startup and the new applications are dependent on them," as most of us would, he thought "Who wants to restart in the middle of the update process!? This is a load of crap!"

Thinking like a common user makes user-friendly programs.

Re:Usability story

[Sancho]

Your wife is obviously not stupid. Lots of people are.

Or if I'm being realistic, it's not stupidity, it's fear. Computers are strange things to some people. Lots of people freeze up when confronted with something new.

Names.

[twitter]

Most GNU/Linux distributions solved this problem years ago and they did it much better than Windows ever will.

GNU/Linux distribution menus are arranged by function and task. The KDE menu, for example, has "Science and Math", "Office", "Internet" and other things any computer user would recognize. The sub menus have a name and description, KWord is a Word Processor, so is OO.org Writer.

You can compare that to the hodge podge of Vendor solutions and permutate those through the mindless changes M$ made to their defaults over several versions of Windoze. What you see is menus arranged by Vendor. The user is supposed to just know what Adobe, Correl, Novel and others can do for them. Programs that do the same thing never end up in the same place where the user might - gasp - compare them or find them easily. The only thing worse is DRM. When you combine that with all of the different default locations for finding programs or saving files, you end up what Bill Gates described.

That note was from 2003...

[iceT]

So, just for grins, I went to download movie maker. Went to the main paged, searched for 'movie maker', and there STILL is no download link. I HAVE to use Windows Update to get it.

Nice to know Microsoft ignores Bill just as much as they ignore the rest of our feedback.

Re:100% fake

[stewbacca]

Yeah, looks 100% fake to me....or not. Man, the MS apologists are out in full force today!

Vista???

[pandrijeczko]

So I read the leaked memo and, sure, Gates' own experiences with the Microsoft download site sounded particularly unpleasant.

But am I missing something because why does this have anything to do with Vista?

I don't use Vista, I don't even plan to upgrade to it and I use mostly Linux with a bit of XP. But I do frequently bite chunks out of Windows people who criticise Linux with arguments based on FUD and speculation, not fact.

So, in the same way, don't turn every criticism of Microsoft into one about Vista just for the sake of it. I can't criticise Vista because I don't use it and, yes, it's a pain having to wait for the sometimes slow MS web site to deliver updates and then expect you to reboot an XP machine when it probably doesn't need it - I can state that from experience.

But please keep on topic and if you're going to criticise something, then do so from a position of fact, not speculation or just because you're having a bad day at the office.

Why do people make these sweeping statements...

[jth213]

...like 'Vista is a complete disaster'? A complete disaster? Are you fucking kidding me? Hundreds of thousand of PCs are running Vista right now. How is that a complete disaster? Anyone who says Vista is a complete disaster has NEVER used Vista.

Re:Why do people make these sweeping statements...

[geekoid]

Vista is a disaster. We ahve a lab full of machine, so yes, I ahve actually ran step by step documented tests.

Freezing up to look for Wi-Fi? Check
Confusing to the users? check
Poor UI choices? check
Difficult to deploy in a reasonable manner? check
API issues, cpu issues, on and on.

Good Job Bill!!!

[suck_burners_rice]

This is my favorite part: "Someone decided to trash the one part of Windows that was usable? The file system is no longer usable. The registry is not usable. This program listing was one sane place but now it is all crapped up."

Keep up the good work!

When it comes down to it, I am completely sure that Microsoft is where it is in terms of its financial success only because of Bill Gates. Unfortunately, ever since he stepped down, I believe that Mr. Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers Developers has no idea what he's doing. Since Microsoft is so high and mighty, it will take a loooooong time for him to sink that ship, but it will never be what it was under Captain (now Admiral) Gates. And the usability of Windows is following the trend of a negative exponential curve. If you think Vista sux, wait 'till you see 7. And the next version, I think they'll call it Windows Excalibur, that one will be so unusable that computer stores will have big dumpsters outside the front entrance, and people will purchase computers and simply drop them into that dumpster upon leaving the store, without ever opening the box. Or they'll just get a Mac, which by then will run Mac OS 12.7 Pelican. (OS 12 will go by bird names.) Maybe this usability disaster explains why Gates gave Jobs a hug sum of money to develop OS X.

Re:100% fake

[STrinity]

It's from the major Seattle paper, by the reporter who is conducting a series of interviews with Gates this week, and links to PDFs of the memos which were released during discovery one of the times someone sued Microsoft. If that's not enough provenance for you, nothing is.

Re:Comic book tiling

[UncleTogie]

Whatever they are, I want one that can comic-book tile a bunch of windows.

You looking for something like this?