Slashdot Mirror


Casting Doubt On the Hawkeye Ball-Calling System

Human judgment by referees is increasingly being supplemented (and sometimes overridden) by computerized observation systems. nuke-alwin writes "It is obvious that any model is only as accurate as the data in it, and technologies such as Hawkeye can never remove all doubt about the position of a ball. Wimbledon appears to accept the Hawkeye prediction as absolute, but researchers at Cardiff University will soon publish a paper disputing the accuracy of the system."

220 comments

  1. Why not use... by Kagura · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Why not use a radio transmitter in the tennis ball (or soccer ball or whatever) to record its exact position? I am certain this has been discussed and I wouldn't be surprised if it's already in use. The article's "Hawkeye" just works by optical analysis.

    1. Re:Why not use... by Bun · · Score: 5, Informative

      Why not use a radio transmitter in the tennis ball (or soccer ball or whatever) to record its exact position? I am certain this has been discussed and I wouldn't be surprised if it's already in use. The article's "Hawkeye" just works by optical analysis.

      It's been tried in soccer. The latest attempts were prior to the last couple of World Cups IIRC, but the systems were plagued with problems, not the least of which was the survival of the transmitter.

      http://www.gizmag.com/go/2790/

      --
      "Anyone that has ever gotten an idea based on any of my work and done something better with it-good for you."--J.Carmack
    2. Re:Why not use... by icegreentea · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Assuming you could build a radio transmitter tough enough to handle it...

      With tennis balls, I imagine there would be problems with balance and the response of the ball. Especially with such a small ball, mounting a rugidtized radio transmitter (a ball probably has to go through 20gs or something) would probably mess with the balance and how the ball deforms. Not to mention, unless you can mount the system directly in the center of the ball, then you still have a margin of error the diameter of the ball. I imagine that would be fairly significant amount of error in tennis (perhaps on the same level as this Hawkeye system?) when calling the lines.

    3. Re:Why not use... by InadequateCamel · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Further to that, if the transmitter can't survive in a soccer ball (where a well-struck shot probably moves around 120-130 kph) then there's no way it will handle travelling over 200 kph after a serve, followed by a (at least) 100 kph forehand return (a net >-300 kph in a fraction of a second!).

      Also, a radio transmitter cannot account for the distortion of a ball upon impact, which will depend on velocity, angle of rotation, angle of impact, surface being played on, etc etc etc...

    4. Re:Why not use... by Amouth · · Score: 1

      wouldn't this be a good use for RFID tags/? they should be tough enough to handel it

      --
      '...if only "Jumping to a Conclusion" was an event in the Olympics.'
    5. Re:Why not use... by jfim · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Triangulation of radio signals is not accurate enough to give sub-centimeter accuracy and the added mass to the tennis ball would probably cause the players to have some objection to adding a radio transmitter into the ball.

      The claim that the Hawkeye system gives an average of about four millimetres of error seems somewhat reasonable, given that we're getting accuracy greater better than two centimetres on detecting objects with a single camera with optics as large as the last segment of a typical pinky. (FWIW, here's a short demo of what we're working on for our autonomous underwater vehicle)

      However, the suggestion to display the error range for a particular shot and leaving the final decision to a human from TFA is quite reasonable and is how it should be. Blindingly trusting technology or discarding it altogether is unreasonable.

    6. Re:Why not use... by Sethumme · · Score: 5, Interesting

      I still don't understand why there isn't more research on developing a surface for the out-of-bounds area that temporarily registers the exact impression of any impact on it.
      I envision something that looks like a big LCD touch screen (but more durable). Every time something made contact with the active surface, a record of the ball's "footprint" could be recorded (and even temporarily displayed wherever it touched the surface). That would allow for highly precise measurement of the ball's landing position, and it wouldn't need to incorporate any new materials into the ball itself. The active surface would only need to be in the out of bounds area, and even then, it would only need to be half a foot wide in order to cover the important zone where the ball's landing position is questionable.

    7. Re:Why not use... by Drathos · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Fox tried to do that with hockey back in the 90s in order to make the puck easier to see on TV (personally, I've never had a problem seeing the puck). The Glow Puck was horrible. When there was a jam up in the corner, it would literally be bouncing all over the screen. It also changed the way the puck performed on the ice. Because of the electronics and battery inside, they couldn't freeze the puck like they normally do, causing it to bounce a lot more and not slide on the ice as easily.

      In a hollow sphere like a tennis ball, how would you keep the dynamics of the ball the same as they are when you add a transmitter to it? If you adhere it to the side, the ball will be off balance. If you create some internal structure/support to keep it centered, you change the deformation during a bounce/hit.

      --
      End of line..
    8. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      maybe a radio isotope? track it by it's emmisions?

    9. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's original, although the sensors would need to be in the inside of the court as a ball is "in" whenever it touches the line, no matter how little.

      There's also the problem of natural surfaces such as grass and clay. But on hard courts I think this might become a viable alternative to the hawkeye someday it it's durable enough.

    10. Re:Why not use... by Anpheus · · Score: 1

      We could call such a surface "Wet Paint" and use it whenever we need to determine if contact was made between the "Wet Paint" and another object.

    11. Re:Why not use... by Don_dumb · · Score: 3, Funny
      At Wimbledon you could have chalk for the lines and if you were unsure if the ball hit the line one of the competitors could point out that

      "the chalk flew up"

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    12. Re:Why not use... by Starburnt · · Score: 0

      Interesting theory, but you're not able to avoid putting the surface in the "in bounds" area. You'll need sensors on the service line (pretty much in the middle of the court, parallel to the net), the dividing line between the two service boxes, the tram lines (out of bounds for singles tennis, but in bounds for doubles), etc...

      Clay courts actually offer something similar (the balls leave an unmistakable mark), but obviously without being able to distinguish between marks.

    13. Re:Why not use... by Nullav · · Score: 1

      Further to that, if the transmitter can't survive in a soccer ball (where a well-struck shot probably moves around 120-130 kph) then there's no way it will handle travelling over 200 kph after a serve, followed by a (at least) 100 kph forehand return (a net >-300 kph in a fraction of a second!).

      Red flag! (Oh god. Now I really want to see someone try that.)

      --
      I just read Slashdot for the articles.
    14. Re:Why not use... by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Yeah, that'll work. Just like in soccer where there's 5+ hands from both sides in the air claiming it was their ball in every dubious corner/throw-in situation.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    15. Re:Why not use... by Don_dumb · · Score: 1

      Wooosh!

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_mcenroe
      Although I understand the confusion caused by the fact my gp comment is modded insightful!

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    16. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Why not stick the sensor on the pitch itself, along the relevant lines. Then it would detect exactly where the ball bounced.

    17. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The word you were looking for is "handle".

      HTH. HAND.

    18. Re:Why not use... by jez9999 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Could someone explain to me how this would be any more precise than high-quality optical analysis? Usually, in the slo-mo replay recorded by even the *average* quality cameras for TV audiences, you can almost always tell whether a ball was in or out. Make that higher quality cameras with a higher frame rate, and optical analysis seems like a very good way to do it, to me. It is, after all, what human umpires do.

    19. Re:Why not use... by rant64 · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Also, a radio transmitter cannot account for the distortion of a ball upon impact

      I seriously doubt that an umpire can.

      Hawkeye's also being used in snooker now, and it actually looks very accurate. The refs always re-spot the ball at least 2 inches away from the spot where it was, and I don't see why they're not using this more often.

      Honestly, even if the Hawkeye system is off by a few millimeters, if I were a pro tennis player then I'd rather have a call which is at most 3mm off than being called by an umpire who maybe wasn't paying close attention and calls whatever he thinks is right.

    20. Re:Why not use... by smj85 · · Score: 1

      Why not use a radio transmitter in the tennis ball (or soccer ball or whatever) to record its exact position?

      Instead of using a sensor in the ball, why not makes the lines sensitive? A touch-sensitive line could detect the impact of the ball.

      No complaints about the ball behaving differently.
      The device wouldn't need to withstand the same force that a ball experiences when hit.
      Don't need to worry about a radio signal - the sensors could be physically connected back to a computer.

    21. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...leaving the final decision to a human from TFA is quite reasonable and is how it should be.

      No it isn't, it's ridiculous. On what basis is an umpire supposed to over-rule a machine with 4mm accuracy? True, the machine may be "wrong" from time to time but by trusting a machine you create a deterministic rule set which is completely neutral. It is precisely the fact of removing a human from the equation that makes Hawkeye so useful and so MacEnroe proof.

    22. Re:Why not use... by Keychain · · Score: 2, Funny

      Yeah i hear they invented something like this : every time the ball touches the grounds it leaves a visible mark. i think they call it Complex Layer Against Yelling, but i doubt Wimbledon and its tradition are ready to take the plunge

    23. Re:Why not use... by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Blindingly trusting technology or discarding it altogether is unreasonable.

      I disagree. Since this is a game, it seems to me the most important thing is that the rules are applied consistently and impartially. Accuracy may be the goal of making the rules, but once the rules are set, I'm much more concerned about the consistency and impartiality.

      They played tennis for quite a long time without the technology, and so it's evident that discarding it altogether wouldn't be so bad. Accuracy isn't really the issue. You could decide all disputes with the roll of a 12-sided die, and it would still be fine, in the sense that it would become part of the game and players could adjust their strategies accordingly. As long as it was consistent, it would be fair.

      So the only question in my mind is, is the Hawkeye inaccurate in a way that would cause players to use strategies that would be bad for the game. For example, if it were truly random, then players might start appealing every call. If they have nothing to lose and a random chance at success, then why not?

      But the use of the Hawkeye system doesn't seem to have any effect like that on the game, so I don't see what the problem is with trusting it blindly. Even if it makes occasional bad calls, they don't seem to be any worse than the call a ref would make. If anything, in those instances, it might even be better for a machine to make an arbitrary bad call, because at least you know the machine won't favor a particular player.

    24. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For the same reason they don't use chalk in the outfield of baseball or chalk for the sidelines in football (American): Wimbledon is played on grass.

      Grass would make for a horrible application of chalk boundary lines. Even if the Hawk-Eye is off by 5mm, that would be less than the chalk difference on the blades of grass.

    25. Re:Why not use... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      Instead of using a sensor in the ball, why not makes the lines sensitive? A touch-sensitive line could detect the impact of the ball.

      Probably because it would require making the line out of a different material to the rest of the court. Since, in tennis, "on the line is in", this would meet different parts of the court had a different surface.

    26. Re:Why not use... by drooling-dog · · Score: 1

      At Wimbledon you could have chalk for the lines

      Don't recall which match it was, but yesterday I saw (or thought I saw) a very definite mark left in the chalk by a ball that was called "out" by Hawkeye. The line wasn't just nicked, either; it looked in by a good 3 cm or so.

      For televised matches, I'd find a slow-motion replay of the actual point a lot more convincing than the schematic representation they use now.

    27. Re:Why not use... by TheGavster · · Score: 1

      I didn't understand in the article, and I don't understand now, why the deformation of the ball on impact is at all important. I was under the impression that the system is tracking the ball's position continuously; if so, why would any sort of collision simulation be necessary?

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    28. Re:Why not use... by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They've been using human referees for a long time, but they really haven't had any other option up until this point. You could say the same thing about the introduction of the car. Everybody's been using horse and buggies for getting around for a long time. Since they've gone so long without the technology, it's evident that discarding it wouldn't be so bad. Even if the error is as large as 1 cm, I would say that's pretty good. How good is the accuracy of human vision at a distance of 40 feet with an object moving at 200 km/h?

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    29. Re:Why not use... by bigbigbison · · Score: 1

      A simpler solution which I"m sure I've heard about before would be to put some fine wires on the outside of the ball and on the boundaries. When the ball hits the line it completes a circuit thus telling you if it hit the line or not. I"m sure there would be problems with the addition of metal to the ball changing how it reacts but it still seems a lot simpler than a computerized 5 camera system.

      --
      http://www.popularculturegaming.com -- my blog about the culture of videogame players
    30. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I didn't understand in the article, and I don't understand now, why the deformation of the ball on impact is at all important. I was under the impression that the system is tracking the ball's position continuously; if so, why would any sort of collision simulation be necessary?

      The question is whether or not the ball touches the line, so deformation is critical.

    31. Re:Why not use... by TheGavster · · Score: 1

      How does deformation affect the concept of "touches"? Is the ruling different if the ball splatters like an overripe tomato or ricochets like a billiard ball?

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    32. Re:Why not use... by ResidntGeek · · Score: 1

      A radio transmitter would only track the position of the center, or a point on the outside of the ball. The deformation of the ball would affect the distance between said point and the part touching the line.

      --
      ResidntGeek
    33. Re:Why not use... by DerekLyons · · Score: 1

      Assuming you could build a radio transmitter tough enough to handle it...


      That's actually pretty trivial - they were doing it with vacuum tube electronics and putting them inside artillery shells back in WWII. Building one that a) is tough enough to take the beating, b) is light enough not to affect the balls, and c) doesn't cost a small fortune is the problem....

    34. Re:Why not use... by piltdownman84 · · Score: 1

      VS is go daft that they are talking about bring back the 'glow puck'.

      http://sports.yahoo.com/nhl/blog/puck_daddy/post/The-return-of-the-glow-puck-on-Versus-?urn=nhl,81825

    35. Re:Why not use... by markbark · · Score: 1

      These transmitters don't seem to have a problem with survival. (and I would guess that a golf ball undergoes more g-force than either a soccer or tennis ball)

      --MAB

    36. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      This is existing technology, otherwise known as force plates. They are quite good at recording centre of pressure. Strain-gaged square force plates of say 20cm size can have ~3mm or better accuracy of the CoP, while having ~0.5kHz or better natural frequency. You only need a matrix of these; not very cheap but not exorbitant either.

    37. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Cricket anyone.....

    38. Re:Why not use... by bh_doc · · Score: 2, Informative

      For example, if it were truly random, then players might start appealing every call. If they have nothing to lose and a random chance at success, then why not?

      Wimbeldon, IIRC, has a limit of 3 appeals. Just as an example.

    39. Re:Why not use... by Drathos · · Score: 1

      They were playing with it some on the NBC broadcasts during the finals. It actually looked worse than the glow puck. As I understand it, it's a purely external system, unlike what Fox used before.

      --
      End of line..
    40. Re:Why not use... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Good god, 120 - 130 kilos per hour, thats a lot of kilos. Jesus, 200 kilos as a serv, are you grazy man, its too many kilos. And finnalt 300 kilos in hour, is that a cow in hour?

    41. Re:Why not use... by Dave_M_26 · · Score: 1

      Wimbeldon, IIRC, has a limit of 3 appeals. Just as an example.

      Three unsuccessful appeals. The players can successfully appeal as many times as they want.

      Dave

    42. Re:Why not use... by Gospodin · · Score: 1

      Not to mention, unless you can mount the system directly in the center of the ball, then you still have a margin of error the diameter [actually: radius] of the ball.

      Simple solution: mount two transmitters on opposites sides of the ball and take the average.

      --
      ...following the principles of Heisenburger's Uncertain Cat...
    43. Re:Why not use... by identity0 · · Score: 1

      I Googled the term to see what it was a reference to, and the SLashdot comment was the 3rd hit...

      I love the internet.

  2. It doesn't have to be perfect by davidwr · · Score: 2, Interesting

    The decision of which system to use: human, computer, human with computer check, computer with human check, committee vote, or what-not should be based on which has the lowest uncorrected error rate within limited time constraints.

    This assumes there is another method, such as post-analysis of videotape, that can find almost all uncorrected errors or at least give some good indication of the uncorrected error rate.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by Fred_A · · Score: 4, Funny

      This assumes there is another method, such as post-analysis of videotape, that can find almost all uncorrected errors or at least give some good indication of the uncorrected error rate.

      Another method would be to use Radar instead of Hawkeye. Probably faster and more efficient as well.
      (obscure reference).

      --

      May contain traces of nut.
      Made from the freshest electrons.
    2. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by DrSkwid · · Score: 1

      How do you take the measurements to compare?

      --
      There are places where the networks are not touching,and there are places where they are-Boeing's Lori Gunter
    3. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by dominious · · Score: 1

      In fact that is what I was thinking, and why go into so much trouble? Ok is good practice for the technology, but the magic goes away when introducing accurate electronic equipment for sports...i mean the game is interesting when there is controversy and discussion..

    4. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by frdmfghtr · · Score: 2, Funny

      Another method would be to use Radar instead of Hawkeye. Probably faster and more efficient as well.
      (obscure reference).

      In the event of a tie between the two systems, perhaps a Honeycut system to break the tie.

      --
      Government's idea of a balanced budget: take money from the right pocket to balance...oh who am I kidding?
    5. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by drooling-dog · · Score: 1

      How good a radar reflection would you get from a fuzzy tennis ball? Don't know myself, just askin'...

    6. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      I say this year, for the 100m dash in the Beijing Olympic games, we should just do away with cameras and and the millisecond accuracy clocks, and have a guy with a push-button stopwatch figure the whole thing out. Nothing like a good controversy to stir things up. I mean, it's not like the olympics don't have enough controversy as it is this year.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Another method would be to use Radar instead of Hawkeye. Probably faster and more efficient as well.
      (obscure reference).

      Obscure for who, ten year olds? I'm sorry, this is a pet peeve of mine. People always think their little references are clever and obscure. I've never seen the movie or even an entire episode of the show and I knew what it was the moment I read it.

      It's the "Internet Age", unless it happened in your backyard with only one friend there, it's not obscure. And even then, if your friend has a mobile phone with a camera, we can find it on YouTube.

    8. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      M*A*S*H

    9. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Obscure to people with a life, but as this is slashdot, there aren't many of those around.

    10. Re:It doesn't have to be perfect by dominious · · Score: 1

      well you do have a point there, however i was thinking football and tennis. and a guy with a push button worked okay in the older olympics. now athletism has become a product for big money.

  3. The only solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

    And ultra-accurate GPS like system that tracks the position of balls in nanosecond detail. They can call it Your Object Universal Remote Movement Observance Mechanism, or YOUR MOM for short.

    1. Re:The only solution by felipekk · · Score: 1

      Why? The ref clearly knows what he is doing: http://youtube.com/watch?v=YcSXQJDIxdQ (for you that don't speak Portuguese, the ref actually considered that a goal)

    2. Re:The only solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The bad thing about YOUR MOM is that it's so big that it needs its own tennis court.

    3. Re:The only solution by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      YOUR MOM knows the position of your balls in nanosecond detail? What are you doing with such a "system"???

  4. Why not, it works for shopping carts by davidwr · · Score: 2, Funny

    If you leave the store parking lot, one of the wheels locks.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      So if one of the players tries to steal a tennis ball, they won't get very far?

    2. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Funny

      So if one of the players tries to steal a tennis ball, they won't get very far?

      Don't worry, tennis is probably the only sport not full of blacks. No one will be stealing anything for a while.

    3. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by sconeu · · Score: 2, Funny

      Unfortunately, for my local supermarket, "leaving the store parking lot" is defined as entering the store.

      --
      General Relativity: Space-time tells matter where to go; Matter tells space-time what shape to be.
    4. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Except all the stores I've ever seen that used in stop using it after about 6 months. I'm guessing that it has something to do with the lockups that happen when you are no where near the "yellow line". Great in theory, terrible in practice.

    5. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You are just trying to find any excuse to strip search the Williams sisters.

    6. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by b4dc0d3r · · Score: 5, Funny

      That's compatibility for legacy (analog) shopping carts with the one wheel stuck sideways.

    7. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Hatred is murder.

    8. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      My local supermarket does this with even greater security: if you take the trolley out of the collection point, all the wheels cease working properly.

    9. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by xstonedogx · · Score: 1

      No. Hatred is suicide.

    10. Re:Why not, it works for shopping carts by Oktober+Sunset · · Score: 1

      no, hatrid is driving without insurance.

  5. Other applications? by Merls+the+Sneaky · · Score: 1, Interesting

    Can this be applied to something useful. You know besides whether or not someone was out in a game of tennis?

    1. Re:Other applications? by Joebert · · Score: 1

      Yes. We will be able to determine once and for all whether or not they just grabbed my ass.

      --
      Wanna fight ? Bend over, stick your head up your ass, and fight for air.
    2. Re:Other applications? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      We will be able to determine once and for all whether or not they just grabbed my ass.

      You're a guy reading slashdot by yourself on a saturday night. It doesn't take any special technology to know the answer to that question.

    3. Re:Other applications? by NamShubCMX · · Score: 1

      Yea technology for sports is ridiculous. Better find new ways of killing other human beings more efficiently.

      --
      We've always been at war with Eurasia.
    4. Re:Other applications? by InfoHighwayRoadkill · · Score: 5, Funny

      Yes, some people also want to use Hawkeye for some decisions in cricket, the sport that first used it. However the margin of error is far greater (approximately +- 2 inches) in cricket as the cameras have to be a lot further away due to the size of the pitch.

      Also Hawkeye finds it hard to pick up swinging, seaming and spinning balls. Basically anything that deviates off its theoretical trajectory either in the air or off the playing surface. Both of which are vital in the LBW decisions where the TV companies and doubtless the Hawkeye people would want to see it used.

      Obviously cricket is a far more useful game than tennis so does this answer your question?

      --
      another Roadkill on the Information Superhighway
    5. Re:Other applications? by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 1

      Can this be applied to something useful. You know besides whether or not someone was out in a game of tennis?

      Must of the technology that underlies Hawkeye was originally designed as a missile tracking system. Although personally I think sports are far more worthwhile than warfare.

    6. Re:Other applications? by stranger_to_himself · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Yes, some people also want to use Hawkeye for some decisions in cricket, the sport that first used it. However the margin of error is far greater (approximately +- 2 inches) in cricket as the cameras have to be a lot further away due to the size of the pitch.

      The other key difference in cricket is that Hawkeye is used to predict where the ball would have gone had it not hit a pad, whereas in tennis it only needs to say where the ball actually was.

    7. Re:Other applications? by Don_dumb · · Score: 2, Informative

      The reason it isn't officially used in cricket is because it would be used to predict the path of the ball had someone's legs not interrupted it. Whereas in tennis it is simply used to account for where the ball actually went.
      Obviously just tracking a ball is a more definite science than the prediction of something that didn't happen (but could have). Especially as anyone who knows about cricket will tell you is that the path of the cricket ball is 'mysterious'.
      I once heard a cricket commentator interviewing the inventor of Hawk-eye (a Mr Hawkins) and asked him how accurate the system was - he said something along the lines of "in testing it has been incredibly accurate" which I found quite weak as I was expecting tolerances of so many mm deviation per second.

      In cricket it is only used as a commentary tool generally proving that the umpires get it 'right' most of the time anyway.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    8. Re:Other applications? by R_Dorothy · · Score: 1

      As a bowler I know that if the Umpire is going to give a batsman out LBW then it has to be clear as the benefit of doubt is given to the batsman and Hawkeye has shown that first class umpires tend not to give the marginal decisions. The commentators also use phrases like: "Hawkeye suggests that may have cliped off stump."

      I think the best argument for keeping Hawkeye out of official decisions is that, in cricket, it would change the game. As Vic Marks put it: "If Hawkeye was the umpire we'd have two day test matches."

      --
      Stupid flounders!
    9. Re:Other applications? by Cederic · · Score: 1


      I recall one of the TMS commentators mentioning a time he'd been looking at the Hawkeye prediction of a ball that was balled.

      Hawkeye confidently stated that the ball would go 2 inches above the bails.
      TV replay of the ball itself showed that it missed the pads and took out the middle stump.

      Oh well.

    10. Re:Other applications? by Don_dumb · · Score: 1

      Grammarnazi irrelevant point I know but I think cricket balls are bowled, hence bowlers.

      I feel like I'm Aggers after that, time for some cake.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    11. Re:Other applications? by Cederic · · Score: 1


      Yes, a horrific typo. I can only apologise :(

    12. Re:Other applications? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I would agree with the parent and GF posts regarding cricket. Cameras are 100 metres or more away and cricket results need to be predictive not just positioning. Further, in cricket, the important part of the trajectory is AFTER the ball bounces. For accuracy in LBW's the only two issues regarding flight is 1) where the ball bounces and 2) where it goes afterwards. Often the travel of the ball after it bounces (for well-pitch-up deliveries or spinners bowling well up to the batsman's pads) is very short and the technology has very little time to accurately assess the proposed flight of a ball changing direction. I think , whatever inaccuracies are involved in the technology, the use of Hawkeye in cricket will be less accurate than its use in sports like tennis.

      Then again I have seen some pretty big errors from human umpires.

    13. Re:Other applications? by driptray · · Score: 1

      As Vic Marks put it: "If Hawkeye was the umpire we'd have two day test matches."

      It would be easy enough to configure Hawkeye to mimic the "batsmen-friendly" margin of human umpires.

      You could do this by running Hawkeye for a couple of seasons in "trial-mode", where stats are collected to enable a comparison between Hawkeye's LBWs and regular human's LBWs.

      You then uses those those stats to reconfigure Hawkeye's margin for error - you might end up with something like Hawkeye being configured to assume the stumps are 5 cm narrower and 5 cm shorter than they are.

  6. If you are gonna troll, do it right by davidwr · · Score: 1

    This is a tennis topic.

    The score should be 15-love not 8-love you insolent clod!

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  7. major league base ball umpires union does not like by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 1

    major league base ball umpires union does not like systems like this and systems like that are not 100% also there stuff that is hard to make calls that can be 100% done by a bot.

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9406E6DE1F39F933A15754C0A9649C8B63

    http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D00E1D61130F933A1575AC0A9649C8B63

    http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1208/is_24_227/ai_103378465

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QuesTec

  8. Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Insightful

    They're reproducing stuff that's already known. Yes, Hawkeye can be inaccurate. However, it's MORE accurate than linesmen and certainly the chair umpire. That's why it's used as the definitive word.

    I'd certainly prefer it to be used otherwise - the best way would be to give the chair umpire the information from HawkEye and then let him decide whether to use it or not at any given time, properly educated about the types of errors the machine can make - but that wouldn't be as flashy, would it. So the advertisers wouldn't go for it.

    1. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 1, Interesting
      A system such as Hawkeye CANNOT BE MORE ACCURATE than humans. From the link in the article, the Hawkeye system uses 5 cameras to compute the 3D position of the ball. That's an overdetermined system of equations, which cannot have a unique solution due to observation errors in the camera views.

      So Hawkeye has to complement the equations with an ARBITRARY rule, eg least squares, and this arbitrariness makes the Hawkeye estimate neither more accurate nor less accurate than humans, just different. FYI, there are plenty of other arbitrary rules that work, eg least absolute errors, maximum entropy, etc.

    2. Re:Anonymous Coward by the_other_chewey · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The accuracy has absolutely nothing to do with the overdetermination of the system.
      If it had, it would be simple to reduce the number of cameras to three, and boom - perfect position.
      That's obviously not how it is.

      And of course does the number of cameras increase the precision of the computed position - the principle
      is exactly the same as for GPS, where more satellites are better as well.

      Using a certain fitting method (least squares, least absolutes etc.) has nothing whatsoever to do
      with something like "complementing the equations", that's just necessary because no measurement is perfect -
      You are arguing that multiple measurements do not increase the accuracy of a computed average because there
      are multiple averaging algorithms to choose from.

      Bullshit.

    3. Re:Anonymous Coward by drew30319 · · Score: 1

      And of course does the number of cameras increase the precision of the computed position - the principle is exactly the same as for GPS, where more satellites are better as well.


      Since we're only dealing with three dimensions, why would any number of satellites > 3 be more precise for GPS?

      --
      JAGga.me ----> Producing video games addressing emotional health and wellness issues affecting teens.
    4. Re:Anonymous Coward by davester666 · · Score: 1

      Hawkeye doesn't need to be 100 % accurate or dumb itself down to 3 camera's to estimate the location of a 2.5 inch diameter ball traveling over 100 miles per hour with greater accuracy than any particular human eye under ideal circumstances [say, no players, with a ball machine shooting them over the net]. Then mix in the environment like the location and movement of the player and their racquets, dust, wind, crowd noise, and the sun. Hawkeye is better equipped to deal with and ignore all these things as well.

      Just saying that Hawkeye uses [or may use] some particular method of estimating where the ball hit the ground is not proving that Hawkeye is more accurate, less accurate or equally inaccurate. It's an apple's to oranges comparison, as a person uses a rather different method for estimating the ball flight than the Hawkeye system.

      The only way to establish whether the Hawkeye system is more or less accurate than human eye is by systematic comparison of the Hawkeye system vs humans or some other method of determining where the ball landed, such as paint on the ball or a markable surface to determine the range of error for both. I would guess that both the ATP and the WTA both probably went for evaluating this empirical comparison rather than just saying, well, the Hawkeye is not perfect and it estimates where the ball is, and a human also estimates where the ball is, therefore the Hawkeye can't possibly estimate better than a human.

      --
      Sleep your way to a whiter smile...date a dentist!
    5. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 1, Informative

      The accuracy has absolutely nothing to do with the overdetermination of the system. If it had, it would be simple to reduce the number of cameras to three, and boom - perfect position. That's obviously not how it is.

      Sorry, but you don't know what you're talking about.

      Any system of equations with more equations than unknowns is called overdetermined. If you have 5 cameras and 3 coordinates, that leads to an overdetermined system.

      The accuracy of the cameras matters, because if the reported measurements were completely accurate, then some of the equations in the system would be linearly dependent on others, and as long as the cameras are intelligently placed, there would be precisely one solution.

      Observation errors in the camera measurements however produce an inconsistent set of equations, hence the usual problem of overdetermination.

      And of course does the number of cameras increase the precision of the computed position - the principle is exactly the same as for GPS, where more satellites are better as well.

      No it doesn't. When you combine observations, there is ALWAYS the question of what criterion do you use to combine them. That's ARBITRARY. The GPS is no exception: some ARBITRARY method of combining observations is used.

      By far the most popular criterion is least squares, which is simple but not as robust to perturbation as least absolute deviation for example.

      Using a certain fitting method (least squares, least absolutes etc.) has nothing whatsoever to do with something like "complementing the equations", that's just necessary because no measurement is perfect -

      I don't know what you mean by complementing the equations. A fitting method is used when there are too many equations, and you'd like to essentially ignore the redundancy embodied in them, by introducing another criterion. Is that what you mean? The criterion is arbitrary, so there is no universal way of complementing equations. People pick the criterion they like, usually the one that involves least effort on their part.

      You are arguing that multiple measurements do not increase the accuracy of a computed average because there are multiple averaging algorithms to choose from.

      Precisely. These multiple averaging methods give different answers. Which one is right? There isn't one. In particular, none of them is more accurate than a human. Just different.

    6. Re:Anonymous Coward by DrJimbo · · Score: 3, Informative

      Since we're only dealing with three dimensions, why would any number of satellites > 3 be more precise for GPS?

      If the errors are random and follow a normal distribution (two big ifs, I admit) then even in one dimension, the error is reduced by a factor of 1/sqrt(N) where N is the number of measurements.

      The same general idea applies to higher dimensions. If you can avoid systematic errors then the more measurements you take, the more accurate your final result will be. If you are interested in the gory details of the higher dimensional case, you should take a look at singular value decomposition.

      --
      We don't see the world as it is, we see it as we are.
      -- Anais Nin
    7. Re:Anonymous Coward by the_other_chewey · · Score: 4, Informative

      Since we're only dealing with three dimensions, why would any number of satellites > 3 be more precise for GPS?

      Because we are dealing with reality as well - where no measurement is perfect.
      Geometrically, three sats indeed are enough, but in reality:
      More measurements -> smaller error bars -> better position.
      The alternative to more sats would be not to move and to take more measurements over time.
      But that would render GPS useless for most applications ;-)

      Additional trouble with the "stay and wait" method: Those nasty satellites move over time,
      introducing different errors that can not be eliminated as easily by simple averaging.

      That's also why ultra precise GPS surveying records the satellite data and waits for the week it takes
      to make the actual orbital data (as measured, and not just as predicted) available before computing
      the position, thereby elimiating (well, at least reducing) another source of error.

      In statistics, the only thing beating multiple measurements is even more measurements.

    8. Re:Anonymous Coward by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      A system such as Hawkeye CANNOT BE MORE ACCURATE than humans.

      Of course it can be, humans are not 100% accurate and even human eyes aren't 100% accurate.

      From the link in the article, the Hawkeye system uses 5 cameras to compute the 3D position of the ball. That's an overdetermined system of equations, which cannot have a unique solution due to observation errors in the camera views.

      That it's overdetermined doesn't matter since in the end the error of those combined non-unique solutions is still less than that of a non-overdetermined system of the same cameras.

      So Hawkeye has to complement the equations with an ARBITRARY rule, eg least squares, and this arbitrariness makes the Hawkeye estimate neither more accurate nor less accurate than humans, just different. FYI, there are plenty of other arbitrary rules that work, eg least absolute errors, maximum entropy, etc.

      That it uses an arbitrary rule says NOTHING about it being capable of more accuracy than a human. Accuracy is easy to determine (via experimentation if you wish) and claiming that we somehow magically can't measure it is idiotic. For example a checkers program plays the game differently than a human but one can still claim the program is better than a human (since no human can beat the best checkers program from what I remember). It may be possible that neither humans nor this system are better in every case but that still doesn't mean one can't inherently be better (ie: if the cameras are accurate enough). In fact even if one doesn't dominate the other one can still uses some measure to determine which is more accurate (on average, etc.).

    9. Re:Anonymous Coward by the_other_chewey · · Score: 1

      Using a certain fitting method (least squares, least absolutes etc.) has nothing whatsoever to do with something like "complementing the equations"

      I don't know what you mean by complementing the equations.

      Neither do I, that's an expression you introduced, and the reason why I put it in quotation marks.

      You are arguing that multiple measurements do not increase the accuracy of a computed average because there are multiple averaging algorithms to choose from.

      Precisely. These multiple averaging methods give different answers. Which one is right? There isn't one. In particular, none of them is more accurate than a human. Just different.

      Fascinating. I regularly make measurements in the micrometer scale using a microscope, and easily increase the precision of my results by repeating them.
      So I should just trust my gut feeling, statistics be damned? Thanks, that'll really speed up my work.

      I'm really not convinced that I am the one with no clue...

    10. Re:Anonymous Coward by SnowZero · · Score: 5, Insightful

      A system such as Hawkeye CANNOT BE MORE ACCURATE than humans. From the link in the article, the Hawkeye system uses 5 cameras to compute the 3D position of the ball. That's an overdetermined system of equations, which cannot have a unique solution due to observation errors in the camera views.

      Luckily there's a 100+ year old discipline called statistics, and 60+ years of literature on tracking to help you out in these cases.

      So Hawkeye has to complement the equations with an ARBITRARY rule, eg least squares and this arbitrariness makes the Hawkeye estimate neither more accurate nor less accurate than humans, just different. FYI, there are plenty of other arbitrary rules that work, eg least absolute errors, maximum entropy, etc.

      While I can't speak for the designers of the Hawkeye, in tracking there are very good reasons to choose one form of error minimization versus another. It only seems arbitrary because you are not informed on the subject, but there's plenty of free papers out there to read and discover.

      To explain current methods, please start out with this paper, in particular Figure 2, you'll see that the sort of errors you get from a camera are indeed well fit by a Gaussian. While a camera's perspective transformation is not purely linear (and various forms of distortion make it also non-linear), a good camera with a decent lens estimating the ball location within a limited area is well approximated by a linear model (and you can characterize just how much the error is). Now, a bunch of cameras with a Gaussian error distribution in the image plane with a linear projection out into the world is still a Gaussian (with a transformed covariance matrix). You can then multiply the independent measurements from multiple cameras to get a better estimate. Add a time series to that and apply this recursively and you get a Kalman filter, something invented for aerial tracking and still in widespread use today. If something is good enough for missiles to intercept other missiles, it ought to be good enough for a tennis match.

      If the linear approximation not good enough for you, you can use a Rao-Blackwellized Kalman filter. If that's still not good enough because you want to use another error distribution or non-linearizable dynamics, set up a particle filter with a whole lot of particles and enough CPU to simulate it. The point is that what you call arbitrary is a well studied field which is many decades old. You'd be best served by learning about it first before you cast away all that work. I'm not a "tracking" person, just a user of there work. When a field of science has done its job well enough that it has become common engineering, and you can go look up whatever you need in books, with all the derivations, caveats and tradeoffs laid out there for you to see, I would say that that field has done a pretty good job.

      The whole media story around this paper is ridiculous. It's a paper from a social sciences department about how the public does not understand the fallibility of these machines due to noise. That's all this paper is about: Hawkeye has error. I hate to break it to the uninformed, but all measurement systems have error. From Galileo to Gravity Probe B, your results can only be as accurate as your measurements, calculations, and statistical models will allow. You can decrease error with various methods, but you can never completely eliminate it. People should not be able to get out of high school without understanding accuracy on measurements, and some rudimentary statistics, but unfortunately our education system hasn't been able to reach that goal. As a result, the public doesn't understand error, and might come to believ

    11. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Of course it can be, humans are not 100% accurate and even human eyes aren't 100% accurate.

      You're missing the point. Accuracy makes no sense unless you include the error criterion. Any estimation algorithm has an arbitrary error criterion, as do humans. Neither is more accurate than the other, they're just different estimation procedures.

      That it's overdetermined doesn't matter since in the end the error of those combined non-unique solutions is still less than that of a non-overdetermined system of the same cameras.

      No, talking about the size of the error makes no sense if you haven't specified a regularization criterion. Now choosing the criterion is essentially equivalent to choosing what the theoretical answer should be, so it's circular reasoning to claim that the resulting error would be smaller.

      Accuracy is easy to determine (via experimentation if you wish) and claiming that we somehow magically can't measure it is idiotic.

      No it's not. If it were, there would be no issue. The issue is that these systems converge to some estimate, but the estimate need not be meaningful.

      Suppose you aim a rocket to the moon, and you are told that a new targeting algorithm is more accurate. So you switch, and the rocket ends up flying into the sun. What went wrong? You neglected to ask what the new algorithm was targeting...

      For example a checkers program plays the game differently than a human but one can still claim the program is better than a human (since no human can beat the best checkers program from what I remember).

      In a game of checkers, both players are targeting the same outcome. In a position estimation problem, when the optimization criterion is not specified, two competing methods may not target the same answer.

      For example, do you want to minimize the Euclidean distance of the estimated position against the true position, or do you want to minimize the error in a single coordinate only, or maybe you want to minimize the roughness of the trajectory of the ball over some time interval, or .... All these methods give different answers, not because some are more accurate than others, but because they actually converge to different solutions.

    12. Re:Anonymous Coward by eh2o · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Combining observations isn't arbitrary, its based on prior knowledge of the underlying statistics and measurement methods. If the multiple measurements are identical with normally distributed error, for example, the mean can be used. If the measurement is subject to random catastrophic failure (e.g. bit flipping), then the median is a good choice. In the Bayesian method you form a composite probability distribution by combining conditional or joint probabilities. In fact, if you do it wrong, you can make the final answer *worse* than any of the original measurements (this is called catastrophic fusion). The method is NOT arbitrary--making that assumption will get you into big trouble fast.

      By the way a system like this has potentially many, many more observations than just five--since it also uses position and velocity estimates from previous frames to compute the most likely next position of the ball. With five high-speed cameras combining data into a Kalman filter you are looking at hundreds if not thousands of measurements of the ball trajectory, which will give you enough data to estimate subtle qualities like the spin of the ball and so on (by extension the number of variables is by no means limited to three, since one can estimate any number of higher order features--e.g., velocity, acceleration, angular velocity, wobble, etc).

      It isn't hard to engineer machines that surpass the accuracy of a human in a variety of tasks, and the question of "which one is right" is not merely subjective but described up by a body of math known as signal detection theory. This math by the way came out of the subfield of psychology dedicated to measurement of the thresholds of discrimination by human judgement with respect to physical phenomena--psychophysics. The resolving power of a measurement system can be quantified by its discriminability index, and decision-making processes based on that information are described by positions along the corresponding ROC (receiver operating characteristic) curve.

    13. Re:Anonymous Coward by Rakishi · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You're missing the point. Accuracy makes no sense unless you include the error criterion. Any estimation algorithm has an arbitrary error criterion, as do humans. Neither is more accurate than the other, they're just different estimation procedures.

      No, talking about the size of the error makes no sense if you haven't specified a regularization criterion. Now choosing the criterion is essentially equivalent to choosing what the theoretical answer should be, so it's circular reasoning to claim that the resulting error would be smaller.

      That's a silly argument because it basically says "nothing is better than a human because a human is no optimized for the problem" or "we can never determine what is better because we need to first determine what better is and there is more than one possibility." You can I'm assuming create a system that is in fact more accurate across all error criteria but that's a separate point. There already is an error criteria in place since human judges must somehow be chosen and evaluated. The computer system in fact uses a different error criteria as a stepping stone because the true measure is not as easy to write in an algorithm.

      No it's not. If it were, there would be no issue. The issue is that these systems converge to some estimate, but the estimate need not be meaningful.

      This system is designed in the end to determine if a ball is on one side of a white line or the other. THAT is the error criteria and everything else is irrelevant or just a step to that end goal or an easier to measure version of that end goal. Interestingly enough the comparison isn't versus humans but rather versus humans using the existing computer system.

      For example, do you want to minimize the Euclidean distance of the estimated position against the true position, or do you want to minimize the error in a single coordinate only, or maybe you want to minimize the roughness of the trajectory of the ball over some time interval, or ....

      This is irrelevant to using over determination since the problem probably also exists with even 3 cameras. I'd guess that their placement or design parameters can easily lead to different error measures being optimized.

    14. Re:Anonymous Coward by Moridineas · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I'm willing to concede that you are talking theory at some level I don't fully grok. What I think you're completely missing in this discussion stems from your original statement that"system such as Hawkeye CANNOT BE MORE ACCURATE than humans", which does not seem to be possibly true by any standard definition of these words that I am familiar with.

      You can talk about "error criterions" and odd offtopic tangents about targeting algorithms etc, but the bottom line is, your original statement is completely wrong.

      You say "So Hawkeye has to complement the equations with an ARBITRARY rule, eg least squares, and this arbitrariness makes the Hawkeye estimate neither more accurate nor less accurate than humans".

      That's both wrong and illogical. Yes, Hawkeye is estimating a solution, and using a "arbitrary" (again, this is utterly bizarre and incorrect word choice--the makers of Hawkeye have presumably done a great deal of testing to pick an algorithm, which is NOT arbitrary) method to estimate. However, if Hawkeye ESTIMATES the correct answer more often than a human judge then, Hawkeye is more accurate than a human judge. The methods it uses are really completely irrelevant to the final answer.

      So in short, it seems that this is a discussion in your usages of "accurate," "error," "arbitrary," etc are different than the rest of the people in the thread.. Please let me know if I'm misinterpreting something though!

    15. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Luckily there's a 100+ year old discipline called statistics,

      Yes, and this discipline depends on something called decision theory, which in turn depends on an arbitrary choice of loss functions.

      While I can't speak for the designers of the Hawkeye, in tracking there are very good reasons to choose one form of error minimization versus another.

      None of this matters one bit if these reasons are not compatible with the sporting rules in the problem at hand. To be pedantic, if the rules say that an umpire has the final word (for example), then a tracking system which doesn't optimize for the same criteria that the umpire uses himself is irrelevant. To be even more pedantic, if one claims that the tracking solution is superior to an umpire's criteria if those criteria differ, one is merely trying to change the rules of the game.

      Thanks for the links, but I am actually familiar with (and have used) Kalman filtering in the past. The issue I raised is not an engineering one. It occurs before engineering begins, namely in the problem specification. More precisely, I responded to a post claiming that the Hawkeye system was obviously more accurate than human referees, which I consider far from obvious and said so. Perhaps I could have talked about loss functions instead of overdetermined systems, but the gist of my point remains.

      So, sure Federer can challenge Hawkeye's call, but the most you can say is what the probability of the ball being in or out is, or use the location of maximum likelihood. Maybe that should be reported on TV; Though it would confuse many watchers, maybe we can help them learn.

      My understanding is that the umpire is the final arbiter. People are free to come up with a model and a methodology to compute their own best version of the head judge's decision, but unless the rules specify the methodology completely, it's merely an academic exercise with no intrinsic validity for the game.

      But certainly, to talk about a system being more accurate merely because it uses engineering methodologies when the problem is not fully specified to begin with is ridiculous, and verges on technology worship.

    16. Re:Anonymous Coward by pyrrhonist · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Short answer: GPS units just make an estimate of your position, not calculate it exactly. More satellites make for a better estimate.


      Long answer: The ranges calculated in GPS are estimates, because the clocks in the receiver aren't very precise. A small offset in the timing can cause a large error in the calculated distance (if the clock is off by 1/1000th of a second, you're actually 200 miles away from where you think you are). This is why GPS usually uses 4 satellites. If the receivers all had atomic clocks on them, every set of measurements from any three satellites would end up at the same exact point, because the clocks are so precise. The quartz clocks in GPS receivers drift out of sync with the clocks on the satellites, and this drift is enough to cause pretty large inaccuracies. In other words, if you measure the ranges from three satellites, and then subsequently measure the range from a fourth, the fourth satellite's measurement will not align with the other three. When this happens, the GPS unit makes adjustments to the 4 measurements until they all align in a single point. This effectively eliminates the clock issue. To get an even more accurate measurement, the GPS receiver will try to acquire as many satellites as possible and take measurements in groups of 4. This helps eliminate other errors caused by interference, atmospheric anomalies, highly reflective goats, etc.

      --
      Show me on the doll where his noodly appendage touched you.
    17. Re:Anonymous Coward by Rakishi · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Just because an umpire is the final word doesn't mean that a system can't do better than him, That is because the umpire is in fact he trying to measure something with a right/wrong answer. Specifically the umpire is the person who decides if event X happened or not which means that the goal is to see if X happened or not (not to see if the umpire thought X happened or not). The umpire isn't an inherent part of the rules but simply a judge to determine if something specified in a certain rule happened or not. As a result it's a perfectly valid problem to predict this event X in a method that is better (ie: lower misclassification) than the umpire. Finding the winner in a horse raise is one example of where technology is more accurate despite the rules likely having a person originally be the final judge.

      One problem is that sometimes one can't measure the true answer in some way so there is no way to truly measure accuracy for a problem. That is a valid problem however I have no clue if that or something else is the actual problem you're so concerned about (your posts are as clear as black mud). In this case there probably are more accurate systems of measuring the truth although these take excessive money, time or preparation. One could for example cover the ground around the line with wet paint (or some such) and then check for breakages, or simply cover the ground with pressure sensors. The article implies they can measure the accuracy of the system compared to the true impact point which means that one can devise experiments in which one can measure the truth of where the ball lands.

    18. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Fascinating. I regularly make measurements in the micrometer scale using a microscope, and easily increase the precision of my results by repeating them.

      Look, statistics is much more complicated than averaging. Do you know where the averaging rule that you use comes from? It's the maximum likelihood estimator: It's a function of the observations which is obtained under certain assumptions on the physical process (which in your case would typically be a Gaussian distribution of errors, all independent).

      So I should just trust my gut feeling, statistics be damned? Thanks, that'll really speed up my work.

      It makes no sense to claim that accuracy is improved by averaging without subscribing to those or similar assumptions. In fact, there are other rules, for example you might add some extra dummy values to your measurements if you have a Bayesian prior assumption, etc. The point is what works in your case need not work in other, superficially similar, problems, especially if the risk function is different.

      When one solves an overdetermined system, one implicitly includes some assumptions. The answers one gets are only as good as the assumptions one puts in, garbage in garbage out etc. There simply is no universal solution to an overdetermined system.

    19. Re:Anonymous Coward by TapeCutter · · Score: 2, Insightful

      "system such as Hawkeye CANNOT BE MORE ACCURATE than humans.......You're missing the point."

      As the other poster implied, your first assertion is what the "point" is. Speaking of points, your last paragraph doesn't seem to have one, it basically says different problems have different equations and answers.

      I would also suggest that an emprically derived 4mm error is demonstratably more accurate than any human and no amount of irrelevant math will change that. If what you and TFA are trying to say is, "it's foolish to belive technology is foolpoof", then a primative "duhhhhh" response is all I have.

      Trivia: The aggrived player must call for the hawk-eye decision if he disputes the umpire, each player is only allowed 3 disputes per somethingorother (lady friend is the tennis fan).

      --
      And did you exchange a walk on part in the war for a lead role in a cage? - Pink Floyd.
    20. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

      Combining observations isn't arbitrary, its based on prior knowledge of the underlying statistics and measurement methods.

      It's also based on the type of loss function being used, which is arbitrary, and many people would say that prior knowledge, being subjective, is a classic example of arbitrariness.

      Take a simple example, a Kalman filter of a single constant value with a perturbation and a trivial observation model. Your filter has two parameters, for the variance of the perturbation, and the variance of the observation error. Depending on how you choose those values, your estimate will oscillate wildly or be very smooth. How is this not arbitrary?

      It isn't hard to engineer machines that surpass the accuracy of a human in a variety of tasks, and the question of "which one is right" is not merely subjective but described up by a body of math known as signal detection theory.

      Only if you have a well defined problem. For example, your typical signal detection problem is formulated within a Gaussian/least squares/Hilbert space framework. Sure, the math is beautiful and widely applicable, but if I don't tell you that the criterion has to be MSE, and you go ahead and assume that anyway, talk of accuracy becomes meaningless. You might be solving the correct problem, or you might not.

      Ultimately, the problem formulation within the rules is not sufficiently precise in tennis to be able to assert that 5 cameras using Kalman filtering to estimate the trajectory of the ball is actually solving the same problem that the referee is solving. Obviously, this only matters in corner cases, and that's exactly when precise specifications break down. How do you include the umpire in the physical model? If you don't, you're implicitly arguing for a change in the tennis rules away from human umpires, in favour of an idealized physical specification.

    21. Re:Anonymous Coward by xquark · · Score: 1

      As long as the equations are not determined from outliers then an overdetermined system can be made accurate - though one must take into account numerical instabilities. At the end of the day, such systems can easily be deemed empirically more accurate than human-reckoning, for this set of very narrowly defined requirements.

      --
      Arash Partow's Philosophy: Be a person who knows what they don't know, and not a person who doesn't know.
    22. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      I think you're begging the question (or I am :)

      By separating the "correct" answer from the human judge you are, I think, describing a subtly different game. The umpire matters fundamentally in the game, and cannot be ignored. Certainly, tennis would be rather different if every decision were mechanical.

      When you refer to the correct answer, you're effectively claiming that no judge is needed since the answer already exists (in some kind of Platonic ideal) and can always be calculated in principle. If moreover the correct answer is specified so as to be computable by Hawkeye to high accuracy, then there is is little point in even comparing Hawkeye with a human.

      However, I consider the judge an integral part of the observation process. There is no "correct" answer which isn't filtered by the judge. In that way, it makes little sense to claim greater accuracy from a system of cameras. This is not to say that they cannot be useful tools to the judge, just that they are not the standard being used in the game.

    23. Re:Anonymous Coward by 26199 · · Score: 1

      Four dimensions.

      In a GPS system the precise time is also a free variable to be determined from the satellite transmissions, so you need >=4 satellites.

    24. Re:Anonymous Coward by martin-boundary · · Score: 1
      Just a quick point:

      This system is designed in the end to determine if a ball is on one side of a white line or the other. THAT is the error criteria and everything else is irrelevant or just a step to that end goal or an easier to measure version of that end goal.

      I believe the correct criterion is "whatever will convince the judge". It's certainly acceptable for judges to use mechanical props to improve their own ability to adjudicate.

      In the mechanical system, what happens when the error margin is such that the cameras are unable to prove unambiguously what happened? Do you fall back on a judge? If so, then your mechanical specification is incomplete.

    25. Re:Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There has to be a correct answer to this question, as the rules of the sport are irrelevant to the question of is the hawkeye system accurate in determining the location of the object. The accuracy is compared to that of human as a benchmark of what is assumed to be used should the hawkeye system not be used. I agree that a judge is integral to the answer to the question as a judge does not determine right or wrong but rather interperates data from its viewpoint as evidence is presented to come to its conclusion. Technically, from its own perspective, the hawkeye system is never wrong. It may have variance in its decision if repeated, but this isnt a question of theory vs fact, its about individual results.

    26. Re:Anonymous Coward by Zironic · · Score: 1

      >Precisely. These multiple averaging methods give different answers. Which one is right? There isn't one. In particular, none of >them is more accurate than a human. Just different.

      I have no idea what you're on about.

      We know there only one true answer so obviously the accuracy is different. The human usually misses the correct location by measure X and the computer misses by meausre Y. They have different accuracy.

    27. Re:Anonymous Coward by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      The problem here is actually something else - which you can see by looking where the paper is coming from. Yup, Social Sciences are worried that people might think that any technological system could be perfect.

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    28. Re:Anonymous Coward by Lars+T. · · Score: 1

      So you are actually arguing that a human will always be at least as accurate as any such system, because they will never see the whole picture and aren't without prejudice - wow, social "sciences" to the Xtreme!

      --

      Lars T.

      To the guy who modded me down from perfect to terrible Karma - Apple haters still suck

    29. Re:Anonymous Coward by lysse · · Score: 1

      In fact, the umpire does retain the power to overrule Hawkeye (or any human linesman) provided they do so immediately; such overrules are not uncommon. (There also seems at least one game every Wimbledon where Hawkeye appears to go off on one and ends up being turned off. If a human was that temperamental they'd be dismissed in short order...)

    30. Re:Anonymous Coward by eh2o · · Score: 1

      There are a few meanings to the word arbitrary--given to whim or illogical process, actions lacking a goal or standard to measure against, or the mathematical use which is synonymous with "any". I don't see how your use fits with the definition... it seems to be ... arbitrary.

      There are apparently a few people who believe the umpire's judgement is part of the game, but I suspect they mostly are sponsored by the umpires' union or are rather conservative because sports in general seems to embrace the use of technology in decision making--cost is really the only obstacle preventing systems like this from being used everywhere.

      And, by the way, TFA has nothing to do with disputing the accuracy of the system, which is already known to be superior, but discusses a completely different topic concerning assumptions about perception of measurement technology in the mind of the uneducated public (the /. summary is misleading and completely wrong).

    31. Re:Anonymous Coward by TheGavster · · Score: 1

      Adding a fourth satellite is beneficial to allow you to solve for time. Since the system solves based on the timeshift of the signal received from each satellite, the accuracy of the receiver's clock can reduce the precision of the position solution.

      --
      "Because Science" is one step from "Because old book". Try "Because of my experiment testing my falsifiable assertion".
    32. Re:Anonymous Coward by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      No, the time is not a dimension, because it can be assumed that the time is a constant at the time of measurement. You really only need 3 satellites. Because you are measuring the position in 3 dimensions, you need four points to figure out the exact position. If all the satellites are on the equator, with 3 points you get 2 positions. One in the northern hemisphere, and one in the south. If you know which hemisphere you are in, you can just discount the obviously false one. Actually, with 4 you can't even get the exact position, but it calculates one anyway, because it assumes you aren't out in space. (3 satellites also has this problem.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    33. Re:Anonymous Coward by Rakishi · · Score: 1

      In the mechanical system, what happens when the error margin is such that the cameras are unable to prove unambiguously what happened? Do you fall back on a judge? If so, then your mechanical specification is incomplete.

      No you could simply use whatever the system says which may be equivalent to just flipping a coin. That says nothing about it being less accurate than a human judge because in the same situation a human judge would also be essentially flipping a coin (or worse). There may be certain cases, as I said my post, where a human does better than the machine and those cases may be known. In that case combining the two systems (computer and human) knowing where each works best would produce even better accuracy than either alone. That doesn't mean that on average or overall the systems can't be compared but simply that neither one dominates the other (this is done all the time by combining computer systems). That people trust other people more than machines even when the machine is shown to be a better choice is a separate issue.

    34. Re:Anonymous Coward by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      There are four unknowns in GPS (three spatial plus time), so you need four measurements.

    35. Re:Anonymous Coward by Moridineas · · Score: 1

      By separating the "correct" answer from the human judge you are, I think, describing a subtly different game. The umpire matters fundamentally in the game, and cannot be ignored. Certainly, tennis would be rather different if every decision were mechanical.

      The umpire isn't critical to the game--after all, 99% of tennis games are called by the players themselves. How would tennis be "rather different" if every decision were mechanical? Well, it would remove cheating and human inconsistency, that's all I can think of--am I missing anything?

      When you refer to the correct answer, you're effectively claiming that no judge is needed since the answer already exists (in some kind of Platonic ideal) and can always be calculated in principle.

      Interesting, but one doesn't have to resort to theory/philosophy/etc -- there IS a correct answer. The ball is in, or it's out.

    36. Re:Anonymous Coward by Wanderer2 · · Score: 1

      In fact, the umpire does retain the power to overrule Hawkeye (or any human linesman) provided they do so immediately; such overrules are not uncommon. (There also seems at least one game every Wimbledon where Hawkeye appears to go off on one and ends up being turned off. If a human was that temperamental they'd be dismissed in short order...)

      Are you thinking of Cyclops... oooh, a pigeon BEEP! Apparently (I've not seen any of this year's coverage yet) it's been turned off to allow Hawk-Eye to do all the line calls so perhaps Hawk-Eye has the same BEEP! issues.

      --
      I say we take-off and slashdot the site from orbit... it's the only way to be sure
    37. Re:Anonymous Coward by lysse · · Score: 1

      Ah, yes I am; thanks, and sorry for the unintentional misinformation.

    38. Re:Anonymous Coward by 26199 · · Score: 1

      One of the issues with slashdot is trying to differentiate between people who sound like they know what they're talking about and people who actually do. No offence, but, which are you? :p

      The Wikipedia article agrees with me:

      It might seem that three satellites would be enough to solve for a position, since space has three dimensions. However, a three satellite solution requires the time be known to a nanosecond or so, far better than any non-laboratory clock can provide. Using four or more satellites allows the receiver to solve for time as well as geographical position, eliminating the need for a super accurate clock. In other words, the receiver uses four measurements to solve for four variables: x, y, z, and t. While many GPS applications have no particular use for the computed time, it is used in some GPS applications such as time transfer.

      Full article.

      (For the record, I'm no expert, but I did attend the odd lecture about GPS back at uni).

    39. Re:Anonymous Coward by Quino · · Score: 1

      Interesting, but one doesn't have to resort to theory/philosophy/etc -- there IS a correct answer. The ball is in, or it's out.

      The other interesting thing is that in tennis in particular, it's actually "either the ball is definitely without a doubt out, otherwise assume it's in and continue on"

      In that sense, I agree with the article. We (the rules, the general public) assume the technology is perfect. Maybe we should adjust the use of Hawkeye in tennis so that it only overrules a non-call of a possibly out ball if the ball is out more than the tolerance of the system.

      The fact that Hawkeye has a margin of error (even if measured in millimeters) doesn't currently enter into the equation.

      It's a little silly to see the Hawkeye system overrule balls that are a millimeter in or out ... I've always wondered how good the system really is. We treat it, and award and take away points, with the assumption that it's infallible, which of course it's not.

  9. Consistency, is more important than accuracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Hawkeye and the like deliver a consistent result. It matters not at all if the ball is in by two Centimetres but is called out, provided that error is consistent throughtout the match.
    If both players, or teams, are playing by the same margin of error, the contest is fair.
    In cricket for instance, I would accept the computers call over umpires any day of the week!

    1. Re:Consistency, is more important than accuracy! by Telvin_3d · · Score: 3, Interesting

      That is only true if you assume the two players are making the same level of mistakes. If both players are regularly hitting the same shots witht he same amount of error, yes everything will even out. But let's say player A can consistently serve and hit the ball to within 2 cm of the out line, but player B often misjudges and goes 1 cm over. In this case, having player A's shots consistently called 'out' or player B's shots consistently called 'in' would be consistent, but it would also make a major change in the outcome of the match. And not the type of change that gets statistically evened out over games played.

    2. Re:Consistency, is more important than accuracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The same argument applies to a human analyzer. As long as they are making a genuine, objective use of their powers of discernment, nobody has anything more than a chance advantage.


      The problem is the fans, who are *not* hired specifically to fulfill a role of objectivity, and are only too happy place every margin of doubt to the advantage of their favored team.

      A machine is nice not for making good calls but for making indisputably impartial calls. Tell people a machine decided that crazy play at the end of the game and there stands to be less yelling, less fisticuffs, less rioting.

    3. Re:Consistency, is more important than accuracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes, but that same kind of discrepancy can result no matter how the line is defined. It could just as well be that the adjusted margin results in equitability where the original line would have lead to a favoritism of B over A.

      Sports are not, and are not *supposed* to be, deterministic like chess. The excitement of the games is directly derivative from the minute perturbations which create inscrutable inconsistencies. Would you or else anyone watch games if every outcome was rehearsed beforehand? You want to see skill pitted against skill, but you also want to see chance and opportunity.

      The important thing is that the players expect and get a fair game. "Mutually optimized" is not the same thing.

    4. Re:Consistency, is more important than accuracy! by MtViewGuy · · Score: 1

      The problem with line judges is that unlike Hawkeye, line judges have to see the landing point of tennis ball from pretty far away, and that tends to cause far worse judgment errors than with Hawkeye.

      No system is 100% foolproof, but those with the least amount of errors will reduce problems with judgment calls by by a long way. In fact, that's why Major League Baseball might even implement a replay system to determine home run calls as early as August 2008, given the recent spate of inaccurate calls by umpires.

    5. Re:Consistency, is more important than accuracy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I fairly certain that if player A's shots are more accurate than player B, that player A statistically should win a higher percentage of the time. I assume you must be talking about variance, as if player B consistently is one cm over, then player B should adjust his shot. Or did you live in some crazy world where games of skill are determined by luck?

  10. Ummm.... by Khyber · · Score: 2, Informative

    I've seen in Hockey and Football broadcasts the ability to track the ball or puck realtime thru some system inside the playing piece (puck or football.) It seems to work pretty decent to me.

    --
    Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
    1. Re:Ummm.... by oscartheduck · · Score: 1

      It's not fully accepted in football ultimately because of the issues of ensuring the system could withstand the impact of being kicked. Bear in mind that these tiny tennis balls reach speeds >100mph; a system has to be able to withstand that impact.

      With hockey, I imagine that the puck is solid makes it simpler to ensure the integrity of the weighting of the puck after impact than it would be with a hollow tennis ball. Striking the relatively light and soft tennis ball to high speeds deforms the ball significantly and making sure that the radio system or whatever you pick remains both functioning and not affecting the balance of the ball would by a challenge.

      Something else that comes to mind is that with a puck, you can scoop out puck material equal in weight to the broadcasting device. With a football, there is significant mass relative to the broadcasting device. A tennis ball is both light and small, meaning that it is difficult to make sure that the ball with the broadcasting device inside it is the same weight as the ball without the broadcasting device inside it. All of this comes down, really, to the fact that a tennis ball is small, hollow, light and struck with enormous power.

      --
      How to use coral cache: http://slashdot.org.nyud.net:8090/~oscartheduck
    2. Re:Ummm.... by Spasemunki · · Score: 1

      It's certainly not used in NHL ice hockey. There used to be a "feature" in one of the network broadcasts of hockey games where they would add a "glow" around the puck to make it easier to follow on screen- this was done not using a tracker inside the puck, but was painted on digitally during the broadcast delay. Were a tracker to be put in the puck, the most significant use of it would be in deciding close goals where it isn't clear if the puck is over the line completely or not. No such technology is used in current NHL games. Making a resilient enough tracker to survive a slap shot would be a pretty significant challenge, though in hockey the consistency of the puck is not quite as significant as in cricket and other sports.

    3. Re:Ummm.... by RobYoung · · Score: 1

      this was done not using a tracker inside the puck, but was painted on digitally during the broadcast delay

      Wikipedia says that it used infared LEDs and special cameras to add the glow. That sounds like tracking to me.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FoxTrax

    4. Re:Ummm.... by barzok · · Score: 1

      FoxTrax sucked ass. It often lagged the puck by a second or so and did not significantly help find the puck. Plus, it just looked cheap and lame. It was abandoned after a couple seasons.

  11. Call the ball Maverick by stoolpigeon · · Score: 1

    As someone formerly involved in naval aviation, let me just say that the headline had me thoroughly confused for a few seconds. I thought the current fresnel lens optical systems were just fine.

    --
    It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
    1. Re:Call the ball Maverick by DannyO152 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I thought it was about University of Iowa football for a while.

    2. Re:Call the ball Maverick by Drathos · · Score: 2, Funny

      Army brat, myself, but my first thought on reading the headline was along similar lines.

      I couldn't for the life of me think of a reason why a Hawkeye would need a system to call the ball when every other pilot in the Navy has to do it with the ol' Mk. 1 Eyeball.

      --
      End of line..
  12. SOMETHING has to have the last word. by The+Bender · · Score: 1

    Nobody believes that Hawkeye is perfect, but the fact is that something has to have the last word on line calls, otherwise you can just look forward to hours of bickering.
    Hawkeye gets that honor because it's the most accurate methodology currently available, and there is no doubt that it is completely impartial.

    Don't try to make it sound like Wimbledon is making a terrible error, unless there is a better option available.

    1. Re:SOMETHING has to have the last word. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "the fact is that something has to have the last word on line calls, otherwise you can just look forward to hours of bickering."

      Tennis has survived this long without it...

    2. Re:SOMETHING has to have the last word. by The+Bender · · Score: 1

      There was always a "last word". Before Hawkeye it was something called an "umpire".
      And even then, oh, boy, do I remember the hours of absurd bickering and shouting that did nothing but detract from the actual game.

    3. Re:SOMETHING has to have the last word. by Don_dumb · · Score: 1

      But the bickering is what everyone remembers fondly as a day when humans like McEnroe played the game not the machines we have nowadays.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    4. Re:SOMETHING has to have the last word. by The+Bender · · Score: 1

      Like many things, it's much better "remembered fondly" than it was experienced live.

      If "remembered fondly" is the aim, then even Cliff Richard's impromptu performance at the rain-soaked 1996 tournament could be considered to have been a good thing...

  13. Is it even used in football? by BadAnalogyGuy · · Score: 1

    You mention that a football with a tracking device needs to withstand being kicked. However the position of a football being kicked only matters when it is punted to the opposing team or when it is kicked for a field goal. Since the uprights make the latter situation simple to determine, the only real situation that the position of a kicked football matters is when a punt is returned near the sidelines. Luckily, a punt is not nearly as punishing on a football as a place kick, so a tracking device would no doubt be able to survive a punt.

    Having exact positioning on a football in play is a huge help since refs are notoriously inaccurate, especially in the red zone when inches determine whether the football crosses the plane or falls short. But then again, griping about the refs is one of the aspects of the game.

    1. Re:Is it even used in football? by sessamoid · · Score: 1

      Wrong football, mate.

      --
      "No, no, no. Don't tug on that. You never know what it might be attached to."
    2. Re:Is it even used in football? by aussie_a · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is an American website. If you want to be understood by the majority of visitors, you need to use the American terminology.

    3. Re:Is it even used in football? by ColdWetDog · · Score: 1

      This is an American website. If you want to be understood by the majority of visitors, you need to use the American terminology.

      OK then, can we get Taco to put in a 'cricket' filter? Every time you Commonwealth folks go on and on about that miserable excuse for a game, I get all confused and upset. I even tried, again, to read the Wikipedia article. My head still asplode.

      --
      Faster! Faster! Faster would be better!
    4. Re:Is it even used in football? by Khyber · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      Fuck a Cricket Filter. The earliest known instance of "football/soccer" was cuju. The Chinese invented it in 3rd-2nd century BC. Call it by what it really is, you bunch of thieves.

      --
      Still waiting on Serviscope_minor to wake up to fucking reality and realize that Jessica Price isn't going to fuck him.
  14. Are people really surprised? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Last year they showed a hawkeye image in Cricket that showed the ball going down the leg side. Now I know that one was false since leg stump was about five metres away from where it should be.

  15. Not perfect, but definitely better than humans by wolf12886 · · Score: 1

    While the hawkeye certainly isn't perfect, I almost guarantee that its at least a few orders of magnitude more accurate than the human eye.

    I don't see where the controversy is, the rules are simple, the ball is either in, or its out, theirs nothing left to human discretion, so nothing is lost by removing the human element.

    Why this shouldn't be used whenever its available?

    1. Re:Not perfect, but definitely better than humans by Cederic · · Score: 1


      It may be more accurate than the human eye _most_ of the time. The rest of the time it's horribly wrong.

      The human eye is less accurate but also less wrong.

      It's why I'm happy for them to use it in Tennis but would hate to see it introduced in cricket.

  16. Professional Tennis by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Those at the professional level of tennis such as Roger Federer (Current World #1) are completely against the Hawk-eye system. During the 2007 Wimbledon final against Nadal, Hawkeye called in a ball that appeared out to everyone, and Federer, a usually quiet guy actually told the umpire that it was "killing" him. The main problem here is that before Nadal "challanged" the call, it was presumed to be out, however Hawk-eye said differently, so the umpire was in complete agreement with the hawk-eye.

    However, the actual problem is that because it is a machine, people trust it to be right 100% of time, even though on more than one occasion, that has been proven wrong, just like the previous "cyclops" system that used to be used to call if a serve had gone past the service line (white line in middle of court). That is why a lot of high ranked players don't agree with the hawk-eye system because it takes out the responsibility of the umpire to do his job, which is to make difficult line calls. The players have enough to worry about without needing to make line calls.

  17. Summary Miseleading? No Wai! by Zackbass · · Score: 3, Informative

    For those that didn't care to RTFA, the study is in the journal 'Public Understanding of Science' and (gooly who would have guessed) doesn't have anything to do with the summary written. They argue that uncertainties in measurement that normally don't impact the layman now need to be presented in an understandable way. They worry that people will wrongfully become too trusting of the systems that do have appreciable error in rare circumstances.

    To inject my own opinion on the matter, I've had a little bit of experience with Vicon motion capture systems which appear to use similar technology to the Hawkeye system. The main problem with the system (when it works) isn't any problem with accuracy or precision. In fact, it's awesome. The problem is that the output is a little noisy and suffers from occasional jumps and hiccups. With proper filtering these are eliminated and the output is amazing. I can only imagine the problem is much easier when you're tracking a single ball rather than tens of tiny reflective makers such as with the Vicon system.

    --
    You gotta find first gear in your giant robot car
    1. Re:Summary Miseleading? No Wai! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      None of the articles I read were in the journal 'Public Understanding of Science' and they were both about the hawkey system. I know the summaries on slashdot are often misleading, but this isn't one of those times.

    2. Re:Summary Miseleading? No Wai! by Zackbass · · Score: 1

      What? The last link in THA goes to a fluffy news article on the university website. At the end of the article is a link to the actual study:

      "An online copy of the study, 'You cannot be serious! Public Understanding of Technology with special reference to `Hawk-Eye' Public Understanding of Science, 17, 3, 283-308 can be accessed at:
      http://pus.sagepub.com/cgi/content/short/0963662508093370v1"

      --
      You gotta find first gear in your giant robot car
  18. 5mm? Pffff by Tablizer · · Score: 1

    From article: The machine reported that the ball nicked the baseline by 1mm. However, Hawk-Eye Innovations also report that the average error of the machine is 3.6mm. If the Cardiff analysis is correct, the errors can be even larger than 3.6mm on some occasions. The International Tennis Federation, which tests the machines for use, would accept that Hawk-Eye had passed its test if it called the ball in by 1mm while the true position was out by 5mm.

    Only 5mm? A human judge watching a fast-moving ball is NOT likely to do better than that.
         

    1. Re:5mm? Pffff by Poorcku · · Score: 1

      Dubai, 2007. Set point for youzhny against nadal. Youzhny hits the ball wide (the mark was visible), but Hawkeye rules it in. The point is Hawkeye may be better where no marks, or evidence is left. But on courts like clay or certain kinds of hardcourts, humans will outperform hawkeye every time.

      And what does the umpire do when the mark is wide but hawkeye rules it in? ....they rely on hawkeye, a simulation rather than a ballmark, which is a reality.

      --
      I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
    2. Re:5mm? Pffff by Poorcku · · Score: 1

      The point is question on youtube. Nadal vs. Youzhny, Dubai 2007.

      --
      I take my children to see Madonna(..), but I never for once ever thought I was in the same business.Chris Rea.
    3. Re:5mm? Pffff by bheilig · · Score: 1

      I hope the average error of the machine is zero. I assume the author of the article made a layman's statistical mistake by confusing the variance with the average. If this is the variance, then the machine will correctly determine the position of the ball to within +/- 1.9 mm only 68% of the time, and 1 out of every 100 times the machine will be off by +/- 5 mm!

      That doesn't seem very trustworthy.

  19. addendum by martin-boundary · · Score: 1

    I just reread the bit about complementing equations, and I'm actually the one who used that word first, so you're off the hook on that point - I shouldn't be carrying on three unrelated conversations at the same time ;)

  20. Read The Friendly Article by MaliciousSmurf · · Score: 3, Informative

    Because that's not the issue. You'll always have uncertainty in systems. The study argues that the public perceives these systems as infallible, and therefore believe that technology can provide a final, absolute arbitration. The study is commenting on this tendency in lay people (i.e., people without specialized knowledge of the system), and warns against the corollaries that stem from such assumptions. Also, the title is bad: they are merely looking at the issue through the lens of Hawk-Eye, they're not looking at Hawk-Eye specifically. You may note that there is no analysis of the hawk eye system beyond a basic discussion of its function.

    1. Re:Read The Friendly Article by aussie_a · · Score: 1

      The issue isn't whether its infallible, but whether its more accurate then a human. If it is, then we should replace umpires with the Hawkeye systems. Will there be bad calls? Sure. But they will happen less.

    2. Re:Read The Friendly Article by CastrTroy · · Score: 1

      How do you scientifically measure the accuracy of the system without having a more accurate system to compare the results to? I guess you could cover the ball in pain, or chalk, so that when it hits, you could measure later exactly where the ball hit, and compare that to where the hawkeye system said it hit. Although with errors as small as a few millimeters, I'm not sure that the mark on the ground would be good enough to get an exact reading of where exactly it landed.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    3. Re:Read The Friendly Article by mdfst13 · · Score: 1

      The issue isn't whether its infallible, but whether its more accurate then a human.

      I'm not sure that it needs to be more accurate than a human, so long as it is less biased. A human referee's decision inherently includes factors like which player is more likable, which player is better, etc. Hawkeye does not include those extraneous factors. Sure, it might be wrong, but it will not give one player a consistent advantage over the other as a result of being wrong.

      It's also worth noting that having human referees gives the impression that argument can change the outcome. If John McEnroe can convince the referee that the call is wrong, then McEnroe might get the next call in his favor. With an automated system, arguing obviously does not influence either current or future decisions.

      If the system is both less biased and more decisive, then I think that that is enough to justify using it so long as it is competitive in accuracy.

  21. Re:Why not use... LASERS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    Just put high-powered lasers firing down the lines. If the ball is melted slag, it was out.

  22. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by Raenex · · Score: 1

    The New York Times references are several years old. The Wikipedia article you mention says the controversy has died down and the system has brought the intended benefits.

    I wish they would just use an automated system in all the parks instead of relying on the umps. I also wish they would use a standard strike zone, instead of one that changes based on the batter. It'll never happen, though.

  23. Unanswered Questions by felix9x · · Score: 1

    The articles don't really answer some key questions about how the system determines if the ball hit the line. I guess the details are in the study. Anybody read it out there?

    The article says the system takes into account the compression of the ball and the fact that it skids on the ground. So the system tries to determine which parts of the ball actually touched the surface? Those must be some statistical calculations because I don't see how the system can actually see the ball compressing in 3d or tell which parts are actually making contact with the surface. So this is where we get the 3mm error. This brings a good point of the results during a game are within 3mm, should they be accepted.

  24. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by KGIII · · Score: 1

    Baseball would be FAR more difficult, if not impossible with a generic system, or at least that is my opinion. In tennis, football, etc. you have an exacting standard. Baseball fields are all different. Each one has different sizes, even the actual distance of the basepath may vary in distance though it isn't supposed to. Each player's height and stance is different meaning that there would be a great deal more difficulty if used to determine (in real time at least) the strike zone. I think the best solution that I have seen so far has been the American Football's system of review after a coach's challenge or those called by the head officials in the latter minutes of the game. Please keep in mind that my knowledge of tennis is limited to just a couple of years back in high school but my baseball experience is much greater so I may have a heavily biased view of the complexities involved with the variances of baseball.

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  25. Doesn't matter, as long as it is consistent by topham · · Score: 1

    It doesn't matter how good, or even how bad the system is. As long as it cannot be shown to have a particular bias to a player, or the side of the court then it is automatically more fare than any existing judge.

    period.

    It doesn't matter if it is even out my 5 centimeters, never mind having an error rate of less than half a centimeter.

    1. Re:Doesn't matter, as long as it is consistent by mdmkolbe · · Score: 1

      An overly generous or overly tight judge will inherently favor either risk taking or conservative players. Thus there will always be a bias.

      Now the same could be said of umpires, but with umpires everyone understands the sorts of errors they introduce. The idea that the umpire could be wrong is freely discussed and lived with. As the article points out, systems like HawkEye usually foster the public perception that they are the absolute truth when in fact every physical measurement has a statistical error in it. The article suggests that at-home viewers should be presented with some graphic that emphasizes that fact. (How is left up to the graphic arts people.)

      In fact presenting the error rate could make the system more accepted by viewers. If the system is presented as perfect and the viewer sees an "obviously" wrong call, the viewer will conclude the system is broken and doesn't work at all. On the other hand, if the system is presented as having a small error rate, that "obviously" wrong call may be chalked up to the error rate and not some inherent brokenness of the system.

  26. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by DriedClexler · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm confused. Why would umpires oppose a technology that can automate the refereeing of a game? It just doesn't make any sense.

    --
    Information theory is life. The rest is just the KL divergence.
  27. Refereeing is by many considered PART of the game. by SamP2 · · Score: 4, Interesting

    For a system like Hawkeye to be useful, it doesn't need to be perfect. It just needs to consistently be more accurate and impartial than a referee can be.

    Nor is it required for the system to be fully automatic and autonomic. Referees can sit in front of their monitors, observe the cameras from all angles, with any time slowdown, and ultimately come to a better decision than a single person could make while the ball buzzes past them at Warp 9.

    But from the social aspect, one has to decide on what is the referee's role, and what kind of influence, if any, do we want to delegate to a computer. And that depends on the type of sport.

    For non-interactive sports such as sprinting, an automatic system works very efficiently, and most people readily accept it as better than a human time tracker.

    But for many GAME sports (soccer and boxing come to mind) many people consider that a referee is PART of the game rather than just an observer. As long as a referee is comparatively competent, and acts in good faith, he has the authority to judge events in the game, and while mistakes are unavoidable, they are considered part of the game as well.

    I'm not sure why this position is popular in these kinds of sports. Maybe it's the whole "humans should be judged by humans and not machines" aspect. Or maybe it's because having a Review Comission in front of CCTV monitors be judging every little move just feels too 1984-rish for spectators and players alike. Or maybe its something else. But this is a rather popular feeling.

    Depending on the features and benchmarks of the electronic system, it may or may not be more accurate than a human observer. In the long term, a joint human-computer analysis system would be certainly more accurate than a human referee alone, especially in team or high-speed sports. But one has to ultimately question, whether, by gaining mathematical precision, we lost some human touch of sport that makes it enjoyable to play and watch. Fun can't be generated with a mathematical formula. And sometimes sitting on the couch and thinking "OMG that referee is such a dumbass" is part of the fun as well.

  28. Hawkeye is rather redundant in cricket actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

    I would accept the computers call over umpires any day of the week!

    rubbish! then what would we all have to argue about afterwards in the Pub?

    Actually Hawkeye is pretty poor for cricket.

    Hawkeye cannot 'hear' a snick to give a 'caught behind'.

    Hawkeye cannot (as far as I can tell) decide if a ball is caught or if the fielder let it slip through his fingers as he scoops it up the ground.

    Hawkeye cannot tell if a Leg Bye or simple bye was scored.

    I don't believe it can decide a 'wide' as there is no fixed length rule.

    Hawkeye cannot tell if a ball was caught inside or outside the boundary.

    Hawkeye cannot decide a run out.

    Hakweye cannot tell if the ball hits the helmet often left behind the wicket keeper (5 runs)

    Hakweye cannot even decide a no ball yet.

    and so on

    The only thing Hawkeye was/is used for is to decide an LBW decision which is a small percentage of 'outs' in a given game, and also to show where balls have been pitched for a given bowler.

    Umpires in Cricket are going nowhere.

    1. Re:Hawkeye is rather redundant in cricket actually by InfoHighwayRoadkill · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Hawkeye cannot 'hear' a snick to give a 'caught behind'.

      the tv companies have a "snickometer" which puts up an analysis of the sounds picked up by a microphone in the stumps. Its only used for commentary. The umpire makes the decision himself

      Hawkeye cannot (as far as I can tell) decide if a ball is caught or if the fielder let it slip through his fingers as he scoops it up the ground.

      A good tv replay can show this but as cricket is a gentleman's game it is up to the fielder making the catch to say if he thinks he made a clean catch. There have been instances in test cricket where fielders have called back batsmen after the umpire initially gave them out.

      Hawkeye cannot tell if a Leg Bye or simple bye was scored.

      No but the umpire can, hawkeye finds it very hard to spot a ball that deviates from its theoretical trajectory at the best of times

      I don't believe it can decide a 'wide' as there is no fixed length rule.

      you answered your own question there

      Hawkeye cannot tell if a ball was caught inside or outside the boundary.

      Thats because its looking at where the ball is being bowled in the middle of the playing area, it doesn't cover the whole of the field

      Hawkeye cannot decide a run out.

      That is because it is used to approximate the trajectory of the ball as its being bowled. Not when its being throw to the stumps and the relative position of the batsmans feet and bat. TV slo mo replays decide run outs (if the umpire is unsure) and are ideal for the purpose

      Hakweye cannot tell if the ball hits the helmet often left behind the wicket keeper (5 runs)

      the normally loud noise the ball makes when it hits the helmet and the ball shooting off in a different direction often suffices.

      Hakweye cannot even decide a no ball yet.

      As previously stated hawkeye doesnt watch peoples feet it watches the ball

      The only thing Hawkeye was/is used for is to decide an LBW decision which is a small percentage of 'outs' in a given game, and also to show where balls have been pitched for a given bowler.

      Its only used for this purpose for the tv commentators to have something to talk about. The margin of error and the problems with picking up balls that swing in the air or move off line from the pitch make it impossible to give an accurate ruling on an LBW.

      Umpires in Cricket are going nowhere.

      Its because 90% of decisions made in cricket are made by the umpires without needing back up that makes cricket a fascinating sport.

      --
      another Roadkill on the Information Superhighway
    2. Re:Hawkeye is rather redundant in cricket actually by Don_dumb · · Score: 1
      All very correct.

      Except perhaps for the penultimate comment -

      The only thing Hawkeye was/is used for is to decide an LBW decision which is a small percentage of 'outs' in a given game

      LBWs are not a small percentage of decisions, the appeals made to the umpires to decide are usually LBWs (catches are generally obvious and the umpire doesn't even have to rule).
      Nonetheless the gp is talking nonsense, Hawk-eye usually just backs up the umpire showing that he came to the same conclusion in a second as the machine did in several anyway, remember in cricket no one or thing knows what would have happened so I'll pick the fast human standing there over the slow machine. Which is very different from the application used in tennis which is what did happen.

      --
      If this were really happening, what would you think?
    3. Re:Hawkeye is rather redundant in cricket actually by 0123456789 · · Score: 1
      One thing you missed from your list: Hawkeye cannot tell if a batsman was offering a shot to a ball that pitched on the offside. Personal bugbear of mine; most umpires seem wiling to give the batsman the benefit of the doubt even if the bate is ten seconds late to the delivery, or completely hidden behind the pad.

      The only thing Hawkeye was/is used for is to decide an LBW decision which is a small percentage of 'outs' in a given game, and also to show where balls have been pitched for a given bowler.

      I don't think Hawkeye has ever been used by umpires/referee within a game of cricket? It's used a lot by TV companies, and as a consequence, umpires seem far more willing to give front-foot LBW decisions than they used to be. If it's been used during a match to help a decision, I'd love to see a reference. Thanks.

    4. Re:Hawkeye is rather redundant in cricket actually by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think somehow my 'redundant' comment was taken out of context. The point was the Parent was stating he would take a decision by a computer over an umpire any day. I was just point out that Hawkeye is simply not sophisticated enough to really be a good determinant of an out for Cricket.

      The LBW comment was slightly premature in that it hasn't yet been used for LBW decisions, however see

      http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.jhtml?xml=/sport/2008/05/01/scprin101.xml

      The current plan is to provide the third umpire with clear graphic evidence of lbws within 45 seconds to help him make the correct decision. But it will only happen should both sides agree to a system allowing players to challenge the on-field umpires' decisions.

      Personally I see no use for Hawkeye in sport at all. It's supposed to be 'fuzzy'. Umpires, referees are as much as part of the game as the participants. They shouldn't be more than the game, but then again neither should the players.

      The new challenge rule in Tennis is stupid (in my opinion) - just get on with the game. This year a match point was even decided by Hawkeye. Where's the 'sport' in that?

      What it does add is lovely graphics and statistics, in fact Cricket on Terrestrial TV (i.e not the satelite channels) a few years back used Hawkeye extensively to show this kind of eye-candy. It worked very well, allowed the programmes to be much more interesting for the stat-geeks (which Cricket is full of) and actually it was so successful that the TV rights of the international games was snatched up by Rupert Murdoch and now I can't even watch it without paying an exorbitant fee.

      So Hawkeye has ruined cricket in many other ways.

      Still...I have the radio, and Cricket on the Radio is unique.

    5. Re:Hawkeye is rather redundant in cricket actually by 0123456789 · · Score: 1
      Thanks for the reply; I was completely unaware that Hawkeye was being considered for use in the decision making process. A bad idea, in my opinion, for much the same reasons that you mentioned. When C4 got the cricket, though, Hawkeye was one of the innovations that allowed their coverage to stand head and shoulders above the previous BBC coverage. I, too, won't pay for Sky.

      The current plan is to provide the third umpire with clear graphic evidence of lbws within 45 seconds to help him make the correct decision. But it will only happen should both sides agree to a system allowing players to challenge the on-field umpires' decisions.

      This is nonsensical; the umpires job is to adjudicate when the two teams disagree (hence why cricketers have to appeal to the umpire, and why football has referees rather than umpires). You cannot then have the players undermining the umpires authority like this. I know way too little about tennis to be able to comment on that, but I suspect the situation is similar to cricket.

  29. Re:Why not use... LASERS! by janrinok · · Score: 3, Funny

    They have already experimented with this idea, but had problems keeping the sharks under control.

    --
    Have a look at soylentnews.org for a different view
  30. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by crossmr · · Score: 1

    Review? are you kidding?
    Do you know how many "close" pitches there are in an average baseball game? I think they were working on lowering the average time of a game, this would shoot it way back up.

  31. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by KGIII · · Score: 1

    You win. I hadn't thought of that. Though, again, I didn't mention that the review system for football should be used for baseball so I have a way to deny all accusations. *grins*

    (Really, I hadn't thought of that. Wow. That'd ruin it. I figured that that system had worked well for that game.) I played in college and actually wanted to consider an attempt at a career before admitting to myself how unrealistic it was and so I have a love affair with baseball so I'm at a loss of how we can automated the refereeing. I see there being so many variables that it'd be impossible to automate the refereeing without altering the game in and of itself. Gots any ideas? However, no no no.... The replay system used in football would suck for baseball though it works well for that game, I think. If anything I think there should be a "pitcher nut scraching" time limit as well as a single step into the batter's box. (Yeah, some people hate me for that one. You step into the batter's box and step out it should be a strike like a balk. With the new guy pitching with both hands we may need a few minutes resolving it but I'd say offense goes first so the hitter picks first but that's WAY too much digression here.)

    --
    "So long and thanks for all the fish."
  32. Transhumanism by LS · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    It's funny how the slashdot community is so clear headed and informed about apparent impossibility of something as seemingly simple as putting a radio transmitter in a tennis ball, but then turn into pseudo religious nuts when it comes to uploading their souls into future AI networks. There's no consistency here.

    --
    There is a fine line between being a cultivated citizen and being someone else's crop. - A. J. Patrick Liszkie
    1. Re:Transhumanism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Welcome to the wonderful world of religious belief. Reel in shock as so-called "rational" atheists turn out to be nothing of the sort! You could almost think the human brain was hard-wired to believe in deities, of which the Singularity is merely the latest to be invented.

    2. Re:Transhumanism by maxume · · Score: 1

      I like strawberry ice cream.

      Let the non sequiturs roam far and free!

      --
      Nerd rage is the funniest rage.
  33. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I dunno, I guess some people just like to keep their jobs.

  34. No more slo-mo replays... by Grey+Haired+Luser · · Score: 1, Insightful

    I'm sure you've all noticed that since the
    introduction of Hawkeye, Networks have all
    consistently stopped showing those wonderful
    slo-mo replays, which, more often than not, would
    simply show that the machine was in error.

    The irony, of course, is that those replays are being
    ignored just at the time when high speed camera technology
    was getting good and cheap enough to be useful for umpiring.

    A much better system is to have players be allowed
    to ask an umpire for a video replay on demand, being able
    to be wrong at most twice in a row.

    1. Re:No more slo-mo replays... by kmsigel · · Score: 1

      I completely agree. It really disturbs me that people accept as absolutely correct a cartoon image of where the ball landed. It's a cartoon for god's sake! I'd much rather see a high speed real image.

  35. Machine mistakes? by Swoopy · · Score: 1

    If the point of the article is mainly to awaken public perception about machine referees,
    then sentences like "but the fact that the machine can also make mistakes should always be clear." don't help at all.
    People should have at least the awareness that as long as they aren't broken and function as designed,
    machines don't make mistakes. (A mistake being the same as 'producing output not in accordance with the input and the design specification' in this case).
    Machines however, CAN be inaccurate and often this inaccuracy is part of the design specification.
    Equating inaccuracy with "making mistakes" is as bad in misinforming the public as it is to maintain the aura of perfection that surrounds sophisticated machinery now.

  36. Re:major league base ball umpires union does not l by crossmr · · Score: 1

    The only way to do it would be to develop the system so that is as accurate as possible. Sensors in the uniforms to measure the strike zone, sensors in the bat to determine if they check the swing, etc.

    If you can't get it to the same accuracy or better than an umpire, forget it.
    After doing that, you'd have to disallow reviews. That would speed up the game. The umpire NEVER changes his call when anyone argues with him, so people could storm out and have just as futile a conversation with the umpirebot 2000

  37. Semantic argument by jimmyhat3939 · · Score: 1

    All this strikes me as a more-or-less semantic argument. Yes the system has flaws, and yes it's the best we've got. Nothing to see here...

    --
    Free Conference Call -- No Spam, High Quality
  38. Re:Refereeing is by many considered PART of the ga by jez9999 · · Score: 2, Informative

    But one has to ultimately question, whether, by gaining mathematical precision, we lost some human touch of sport that makes it enjoyable to play and watch. Fun can't be generated with a mathematical formula. And sometimes sitting on the couch and thinking "OMG that referee is such a dumbass" is part of the fun as well.

    Watched the Aussie Open or Wimbledon in the last couple of years? I, and most other observers, consider that Hawkeye makes the game more enjoyable, and whilst probably isn't 100% accurate, is better than having players constantly whinging at the line judges and a constant feeling of 'unfairness' being held by a player because they think the human linejudge made a significant mistake (and maybe they did). Hawkeye won't make a SIGNIFICANT mistake.

  39. Make the ball radioactive ... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... and use a infrared camera. Problem solved.

  40. Re:Refereeing is by many considered PART of the ga by kmsigel · · Score: 1

    >For non-interactive sports such as sprinting, an automatic system works very efficiently

    The system (photo finish) used in sprinting isn't exactly automatic. A line scan image is taken of the finish line as the runners cross and a human looks at the image to determine in which frame the chest of a runner first appears.

  41. Applications of Hawkeye by vigmeister · · Score: 1

    I am not sure how many cameras are used in Tennis, but I am guessing they use at least 6 of them to triangulate which I believe produces an accuracy better than that a human can produce.

    IIRC, Hawkeye was introduced in cricket to judge LBWs (Think of it as the ball hitting the batsman on it's way to the stumps). Now the rules say that any doubt must go in favour of the batsman, but obviously common sense prevails and umpires make a subjective decision on whether or not the ball is going on to hit the stumps. Hawkeye actually predicts the motion of the ball for about 1.5 meters after it has travelled about 20m in these decisions and makes a call (without concern for an 'error volume'). I would say that Hawkeye for most part is extremely accurate in the tracking with cameras placed >60m away with the ball typically moving at ~50 - ~100mph and moving in the air and after bouncing and usually better than the human umpires at predicting the path of the ball. The reasons it cannot quite work in cricket to make decisions is that LBW decisions involve things that hawkeye can determine (like where the ball pitches and where the ball is headed) and things like batsman's intent and whether he was attempting to play a shot that it cannot.

    With them extending this technology to tennis, I cannot imagine that it would be any less accurate than a human being. Since tennis does not specify any direction of benefit of doubt, I think what the system could display is a 'Probability of being in/out' based on the error volume calculations and then decisions could be made depending on that (maybe original call stands if either of the probabilities is 0.25 or something).

    Cheers!

    --
    Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
    1. Re:Applications of Hawkeye by Cederic · · Score: 1


      Hawkeye has been demonstrated to be completely full of shit at times when predicting LBW decisions.

      It especially struggles with heavily swinging, seaming or spinning balls.

      That doesn't mean that human umpires are necessarily good at that, but there's a good reason hawkeye isn't used in the match itself, only as an aid to the television pundits.

  42. Bias against technology by vigmeister · · Score: 1

    I am not sure why people put technology to higher standards than humans. TFA (yes! I read it!) says this:

    Led by Professor Harry Collins and Dr Robert Evans, the team argues that such devices could cause viewers to overestimate the ability of any technological devices to resolve disagreement among humans. It also suggests that a more detailed understanding of how the device works could play a vital role in public education the benefits of which could spread to all technological decision making in the public domain.

    I am not sure Hawkeye CAUSES people to think machines are infallible, but it's rather backwards where HAwkeye is assumed to be infallible BECAUSE people expect computers and machines to be correct 100% of the time. The potential for error by a computer is alien to most people (not least because people like my idiot CS teacher in school keep telling you that computers are 100% accurate and that they never tire). For some reason, there is reluctance to accept automated systems that are not 100% perfect.

    If you were to invent a self manoeuvring vehicle which reduced the no. of accidents every year to 50% of current values, that would still not be implemented (in today's society) since every single on of us 'KNOWS' we drive better than the cars. I am not saying we should trust machines implicitly - I am just saying technology should not necessarily be held to superhuman standards.

    Cheers!

    --
    Atheist: Buddhist in a Prius
  43. This is the age of technology by davidwr · · Score: 1

    You should be using the metric system.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
  44. O RLY? by davidwr · · Score: 4, Funny

    You Pierce me with your wit! It Burns! When you finally drag out your Winchester and kill me, you'll have to bury me in a field fit for a Potter because I can't afford anything better.

    --
    Knowledge is how to play a game, intelligence is how to win, wisdom is knowing what game to play.
    1. Re:O RLY? by hubie · · Score: 1

      Your joke started out pretty funny at first, but then it dragged on too long and got too maudlin and preachy in the end.

  45. You cannot be serious! by csoto · · Score: 2, Funny

    That ball was on the line!

    --
    There exists no way of exchanging information without making judgments. --Bene Gesserit Axiom
  46. Why not use contact or cond. sensors? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    why keep track of the ball, when you can keep track of the court it's much easier. the court doesn't move, doesn't change. Place sensors on the lines, pressure sensors, etc and track that. they can make grid sensors that can show sub-mm activation. Even easier you could weave a semi conductive polymer thread into the balls, and place a parallel wire system into the lines, if the balls hits the lines,a computer would be activated then. anyway, just my two ideas.

  47. Yes, or even simpler, reactive paint lines by RJFerret · · Score: 1

    Even easier, on clay courts they look at how the paint line is disturbed, it would be simple enough to paint the lines with an additive that reacts to the friction of the ball heating up the surface momentarily, or pressure contact, for a visual indicator as effective as clay courts. K.I.S.S. (Of course, there's rarely profit to be made in the simple effective solutions.)

  48. reproduce human errors??? by yakiimo · · Score: 1

    What would even be the point of an automated system that "gives the benefit of the doubt" or reproduces human errors? Maybe I missed the point, but it sounds very close to pointless if you do that kind of thing. "It was in, but many people probably think it was out, so... ok it's out."

    I would much prefer to see the evidence and the margins of error as they mentioned. It seems smarter to make the rules of the sport incorporate the equipment used and have set decisions about how to handle calls when they are within the range of uncertainty of the mechanism.

  49. Re:Refereeing is by many considered PART of the ga by treat · · Score: 1

    I'm not sure why this position is popular in these kinds of sports. Maybe it's the whole "humans should be judged by humans and not machines" aspect. Or maybe it's because having a Review Comission in front of CCTV monitors be judging every little move just feels too 1984-rish for spectators and players alike. Or maybe its something else. But this is a rather popular feeling.


    Must it really be any more than just wanting to have something to argue about in the pub?

    Watching the entirety of soccer and boxing matches and paying attention, the first times for both, I was completely shocked at the referee's control over the outcome of the game. They can basically arbitrarily decide the outcome.

    But without these events, large groups of drunk men would have had nothing to talk about for an entire night. Each outrageous event is also good for a 15-minute debate every 3 months for the rest of your life.

    Soccer provides a lot more chance for these debates than boxing. Of course Baseball provides for some. But on the average, the rest of the world has more time to spend doing nothing than Americans. So they need sports that are more arbitrary, and provide more situations for debate.
     

  50. almost all of this discussion is off-topic by cellocgw · · Score: 1

    Yeah, I know, this is /. and I'm not new here so I should know better....

    But TFA is about how to USE automated systems and how to EDUCATE the public about the capabilities and limitations of such systems. In particular, they mention the need to have people understand that Hawkeye is not perfect. This is not a new problem -- how many of us old folks can remember any number of times that a retail clerk will say "but the cash register/computer says the price is X," or "the computer says your bank account is..." when it's bleedingly obvious to anyone with half a brain that the database is fouled up?
    The point is that people need to know how to interpret the accuracy and precision of automated systems, and how to interpret error bars as well. How many times have you seen a newscast say "Bob is leading Joe in the polls by 5% with a margin of accuracy of 6%," and then go on to claim that this makes the race a "statistical dead heat"? Which of course it does nothing of the sort.

    Personally, I'm happy with any system (back to sports) which is fast, reasonably accurate, and is deemed by the Rules Of The Game to be the final arbiter. Either the head umpire or Hawkeye gets a decision in tennis in about 10 seconds. Compare this to the bullshit that goes on every time an NFL ref goes to the sidelines to look at "instant replay" video.

    --
    https://app.box.com/WitthoftResume Code: https://github.com/cellocgw
  51. Re:Refereeing is by many considered PART of the ga by Cederic · · Score: 1


    'soccer'? Football.

    The main reason replays and other more advanced technologies aren't used in football is because the game does not have natural break points in which to use them.

    It would destroy the flow of the game and damage it as a sport and as a spectator sport to create additional stoppages to check things.

    As an example.. someone enters the penalty area with the ball; they are tackled and fall to the ground. Were they fouled? The referee says no, the defending team welly the ball upfield and score.

    Imagine we had to use a replay to check whether there was a foul and a penalty. When do you check it? At the time? You can't, the ball is in play. At the next stoppage? A goal was just scored at the other end, are you going to risk writing that off, even though it may be 4-5 minutes after the incident you're checking? It's just unworkable.

    For a sport like tennis or cricket where the action occurs in discrete events there are natural pauses in which such things can be checked. In a sport such as football the continuous flow of the game would be broken. That's why technology hasn't been used to aid the referee, not because people prefer controversy and the risk of human error.

  52. In use at the French Open? by Fender+Tremolo · · Score: 1

    This system has turned me off of tennis anymore. It is not acceptable to totally rely on this technology when they already have a system available to more accurately determine what happened. It's called HDTV. They have enough HD cameras around the court to show what happened from more than one angle.

    A few years ago I watched some of the French Open and the system was not officially being used, but it was used in the booth and the announcers commented on close line calls with it. I saw five line calls that were close enough that they used the system to 'check' the officials and 3 of the 5 Hawkeye results were wrong! How do we know? Easy! Playing on clay leaves visible marks on the surface that are proof of the contact area of the ball. Since I rarely watch anymore, do they use it at the French now?

    Still, I do not believe that the computer system can accurately calculate the deformation of the ball as it impacts the surface and the distance the ball slides before it leaves the surface. Finally, if the system is now used as the ultimate authority there is no reason to have any line judges. The umpire remains to run the replay controls, but all judges should be removed so that there is no confusion introduced by humans. Players makes their own calls and if the opponent questions it, they show the replay. Gameplay would only be slowed momentarily because they should remove all the animation and just show the final frame and say 'in' or 'out'.

  53. The real benefit: Limiting arguments by Kalle+Barfot · · Score: 1

    The real benefit of Hawkeye as well as the three "challenges" granted to each player is that it has had a very positive impact on player behaviour.

    Gone are the days of endless bitching at the line judges, swearing at the umpire, and throwing tantrums instead of playing the next point.

    If the price to pay for that is a slight risk of inaccuracy, so be it!

    --
    "To strive, to seek, to find, and not to yield." -- Tennyson
  54. RFID by BiggestPOS · · Score: 1

    The same passive tech built into Door Cards and anti-theft stickers is woven into the material of the ball, with the weight and consistency difference taken care of by the manufacturer to keep the balls feeling as "true" as possible.

    Maybe even give each tournament sanctioned ball a unique serial number, should make for a much hotter collector's market :)

    Then you could put RFID transmitter/receivers in/under the out of bounds paint itself, and perhaps further away, to get as many readings as possible to track the ball.

    Just an idea.

    --
    What, me worry?
  55. Re:Why not use... LASERS! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Actually, there's some sense to your comment. Why not just run low power lasers along the lines (think laser pointer power levels, but with a tighter focussed beam)

    If there's a dispute, look at the close up of the ball. If there's a laser dot, it was on the line.

  56. What stops cheating by officials by ThomasTheTankEngine · · Score: 0

    Who verifies that the replay by Hawkeye is really the shot just played. What's to stop the hawkeye operator just selecting the secret "give me the most similar replay(to the actual replay) that was out". Or in depending on which player is your paying customer. With the amount of computing power they have got, that would be easy. A whole match can turn on a couple of points. 5 all in the 5th set tie breaker. Wrong call(ie don't actually show what happened). All over

  57. Human too by residieu · · Score: 1

    It is obvious that any model is only as accurate as the data in it

    That applies to the human eye as well.