Apple Laptop Upgrades Costing 200% More Than Dells

An anonymous reader writes "C|net is highlighting the astonishing cost of Apple laptop hardware upgrades, compared to Dell — in some instances, Apple is charging 200% more for upgraded components, such as memory and hard disks. Either there's a serious difference in the quality of components being used, or Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves."

Comments

Apple

[adpsimpson]

Top end vendor charges more for service than mass-market vendor.

Film at 11.

Re:Apple

[michael_cain]

To me that sounds a lot like what antitrust is designed to thwart.

Sorry, antitrust is designed to thwart that kind of tying only if one has a dominant market position, and is using the tying to extend that dominance into a different market. With 5% or so market share, Apple is small enough to be free to do what they like in the way of bundling and tying.

Re:Apple

[Darkness404]

the only thing Apple has over other vendors is better customer service: not technology.

And OS X. Compare Vista to OS X and you see that OS X wins in everything over Vista. Now, it is debatable if OS X is worth it, or if it is better then Linux, but compare Vista to OS X and you see that Apple has better technology then the average box you buy at a large chain of brick-and-mortar stores.

Re:Apple

[interstellar_donkey]

Customer service is a service, and it's part of a larger package. Apple has its own business plan. They do not market towards the tech savvy. They provide a product that works for people who are scared to death to open their computer cases and, say, replace a video card.

Think of them as being in more of the boutique computer business. If they can get more money by providing easy-to-use (though not as adaptable) products with a slick design, then what's the problem?

Re:Apple

[DinDaddy]

So it should be redesigned to stop any company from doing something some consumers don't like?

Re:Apple

[MidnightBrewer]

Antitrust should definitely not be for punishing companies just because they do something that, while we don't like it, we're not actually being forced into taking part in. This is more like one of those "vote with your dollar" scenarios.

Re:Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The last time I checked (Consumer Reports), the only thing Apple has over other vendors is better customer service: not technology.

What? Consumer Reports showed them as having a very significantly lower failure rate during the first year than any other vendor (as of early 2007). That was the last real study I saw them publish on the subject.

Re:Apple

[gnasher719]

Not really. We just need to enforce our existing antitrust laws. Apple gets away with this sort of stuff because the market is so broken. If there were multiple, practical alternatives for desktop OS's with fast paced innovation driven by competition, Apple would not even be able to bundle their OS and hardware without losing money. The only way they get away with charging as much as they do for some of their upgrades is by leveraging OS X. Fix the market and they'll unbundle those products out of economic necessity.

Now that is nonsense. You are absolutely free to buy memory and hard drives wherever you want, and they are easy enough to install yourself. Some models make it a bit harder, but you can buy different models. You can attach and monitor you want, and if you are looking for a graphics card and don't find what you want, complain to the graphics card manufacturers.

Re:Apple

[sterno]

Indeed. Apple, just like Dell, or any other company is charging "what the market will bear". If they can get away with charging twice as much for a component, then they will. Dell would do the same thing if they could.

Re:Apple

[Araxen]

So it should be redesigned to stop any company from doing something some consumers don't like?

If you don't like it don't buy from them. There are plenty of other computer manufacturers....it just won't be a Mac.

Re:Apple

[Attila Dimedici]

It is not scale, it is market share. In both of your examples, the cartel has dominant market share in the market (the affected city).

Re:Apple

[ArCh3r]

Your example is true, but that is because of the lack of an alternatives in getting gas withing that city. But that is not the same with Apple and its products. There are tons of viable alternatives to Apple products so Apple can do what it wants in terms of pricing and bundling. If you don't like it, use another PC. Ferrari charges WAY more for its product and replacement parts than its competitors. Are they breaking antitrust laws? Nope. And neither is Apple.

Re:Apple

[hexmem]

No it's not. Learn what Anti-Trust is.

Re:Apple

[mmeister]

Wow, what reality do you live in? Apple's charging of hardware upgrades has absolutely NOTHING to do with their bundling the OS with their hardware.

I'm waiting for the demand of customers to be able to buy the engines separate from their car. I mean, do you realize how much BMW is charging for that engine. And they just bundle it right in.

This is pure capitalism. If you don't like the upgrade options, don't buy them (there are many alternatives available to buy upgrades for memory and hard drives). Apple is charging a premium for their upgrades just like BMW charges to get navigation or a 6-CD changer.

Re:Apple

[Dekortage]

Probably true. I've heard that from others too.

I've also heard quite the opposite, and my own experience bears out that Apple tends to be more reliable. My wife's Powerbook is more than eight years old and has never needed repair (though it is well-used); my own PowerBook didn't need repair until year 3, and then only after being dropped for the fifth time. Meanwhile, I have several friends with Dell laptops who have gone through multiple service iterations in the first year, some quite extreme (like having a motherboard replaced TWICE).

As they say: YMMV.

Re:Apple

[mikael]

Maybe they just want a clear and simple user interface without having to worry about viruses, worms, bot-nets, service packs and malware, broken registry settings, mismatched device drivers. That would be reason enough to avoid Windows.

For a non-technical person who needs a computer as a tool to do their work (eg. legal, consulting), avoiding the risk of losing the use of their computer for two to three days may very well justify the extra expense of an Apple over a PC, even if they are not doing digital content creation.

Re:Apple

[The-Blue-Clown]

Can anyone besides me remember back when IBM clones took off while Apple was charging 100% markup? Jobs/Apple has become what is used to condemn. A bloated company focused on ringing money from it's customers.

Re:Apple

[AdmV0rl0n]

It sounds like we need to redesign what antitrust is for.

Not really. We just need to enforce our existing antitrust laws. Apple gets away with this sort of stuff because the market is so broken. If there were multiple, practical alternatives for desktop OS's with fast paced innovation driven by competition, Apple would not even be able to bundle their OS and hardware without losing money. The only way they get away with charging as much as they do for some of their upgrades is by leveraging OS X. Fix the market and they'll unbundle those products out of economic necessity.

The real problem I see here is MS has bribed the US courts and the EU courts have been trying to be super diplomatic to MS. Top that off with all the courts being painfully slow compared to high tech industry and we see these sorts of inefficient, consumer unfriendly behaviors in dozens of markets peripheral to the desktop OS market.

Apple does not get 'away' with this because the 'market is broken'. Apple gets away with this because this is business, and they are there to make a profit. At the same time, they will argue that they put in the effort to provide the hardware, and software combination, and they will claim that doing so has a cost element.

There is no 'market' in terms of Apple, because they are the designers and creators of their technology, AND thus its their market to do with whatever they wish. They are entitled to control and sell it how they see fit. You - as a consumer have completely FREE choice in this matter. Enough information exists that if you do not like the cost of 'Apple' taking extra time and stocktaking to fit your additional parts, Google will provide you with the answer to the fitting, and also pricing of what you require. And if you can't do the work yourself, You don't have to buy an Apple at all. The market for computers is vast, and is not restricted in any way for the consumer. Or talk to a friend technical enough they can help you do it.

As for you MS court bribery nonsense, what rot.

This is a non story, who the hell got it past the review..

Re:Apple

[Orange Crush]

There are also plenty of other Apple-certified service shops who can upgrade memory and whatnot without voiding an Apple warranty for those who can't do it themselves, so even if you buy a Mac, you've still got choices with regards to upgrades.

Re:Apple

[richmaine]

Indeed, it apparently would shock interstellar donkey to know that tech-savy people sometimes have criteria other than the cheapest box they can find. For example, they are often well paid and would prefer not to have to waste a lot of their time fiddling with system-level things of their desktop computer.

I personally sysadmined and otherwise managed multiple computers, including the main central ones at a NASA center. I designed several of the major systems there. I think I count as tech savy, and I know quite a lot of other people who are. We also had a technical Apple sales representative (one who could actually "speak Unix") specifically marketting Apple stuff to us, so I'm a bit puzzled where he came from if Apple doesn't do the kinds of things he was doing, as interstellar donkey appears to claim.

Sure, I could put together my own boxes; I've done that. I've also bought boxes from Dell. My time happens to be more valuable than any price difference involved. Last time I checked, the hardware cost of a box was almost negligible compared to the cost of keeping one supported in our environment. I'd expect anyone who had actually worked in a professional environment full of technical people to know this. Or is Donkey's notion of "tech savy" restricted to hobyists?

Re:Apple

[aardwolf64]

Only at Slashdot can Apple's overcharging be the fault of Microsoft... :-)

Re:Apple

[Free the Cowards]

Apple gets away with this sort of stuff because the market is so broken. If there were multiple, practical alternatives for desktop OS's with fast paced innovation driven by competition, Apple would not even be able to bundle their OS and hardware without losing money.

What an enormous wad of bullshit. Apple was doing this sort of bundling long before Microsoft established their monopoly. You remember back in the 80s when there was real desktop competition, right? Well, that time was also the heyday of Apple Computer, Inc. They enjoyed more success in that period than at any other time prior to the past few years, and it was all done in a diverse, competitive market and with a fully integrated hardware/software solution.

Re:Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Cite please?

Here is a list and commentary on MS's campaign contributions. Notice what happens in 98 when they go on trial and then, again, the huge increase in the 2000 election year, just before all the people who successfully convicted MS were replaced by new appointees who let MS off the hook with no punishment and without being broken up.

Just because no one can prove these contributions resulted in favorable treatment doesn't mean we're all idiots and can't put two and two together. American politicians have been for sale for many years and these big companies aren't giving this money away as a charity. They do it because it works to get whatever it is they want, be it legislation that gives them and advantage over the competition or allows them to make money at the people's expense or they want out of their legal troubles.

Re:Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Wow, what reality do you live in? Apple's charging of hardware upgrades has absolutely NOTHING to do with their bundling the OS with their hardware.

I disagree.

I'm waiting for the demand of customers to be able to buy the engines separate from their car. I mean, do you realize how much BMW is charging for that engine. And they just bundle it right in.

You have completely misunderstood my point. When people buy a BMW, one of the things they consider is the price (including the price of the upgraded options). With the automotive market, a person might compare a BMW to an Audi and in the course of the comparison, consider the cost of a built in GPS. If the upgrade cost for that feature (and the other features) is so high on one that it makes a substantial price difference, a consumer may buy a car from the other vendor. As such, the market does pressure these companies to keep these upgrade costs low enough that they don't drive sales to the competition.

With the computer system market, a lot of people buying a system need or want OS X and Apple is the only vendor that sells OS X, so people buy their hardware from Apple, when what they really want is the OS. This is the result of the desktop OS market being monopolized.

This is pure capitalism.

No, it is regulated capitalism because of the legal restrictions. But the point is, it isn't pure free market capitalism, because one of the markets involved is monopolized, and any economist will tell you, that undermines the free market in both that market and any tied market.

...If you don't like the upgrade options, don't buy them

In general I don't. This market affect is a minor inconvenience to me, no more. For that matter I can get OS X running on non-Apple hardware if I'm so inclined. That does not, however, mean it is not detrimental to the average user and to the market in general.

It seems most people don't have any conception of how a monopoly affect markets, nor on how drastic and wide ranging those affects are. Nor do they seem to understand how detrimental those monopolies are to them. I can't say if MS abuse their monopoly (or have a monopoly to abuse) that innovation would be faster in a very specific way, but it is pretty clear what has happened in other markets when those monopolies were stopped. Prices go down in all related markets and innovation speeds up to the benefit of consumers. Before Bell's abuses were stopped and it was broken up, prices were outrageous and people were paying tens of thousands of dollars over their lifetime to rent really crappy telephones. Answering machine and services (a related market) was horrible and expensive, compared to the dirt cheap answering machines built into phones today. Right now, we're in that same place for desktop OS's and the related markets (like desktop computer hardware upgrades) are pretty poor and inflexible. How much better would it be? I can't say, but it is clear that prices would come down as competition was enabled, if nothing else.

Re:Apple

[prockcore]

You're not seriously arguing that Apple has no competition?

During MS's antitrust case, the judge ruled that Apple wasn't considered competition because Macs and PCs are two different markets.

Using that logic, Apple doesn't have any competition at all in the "mac marketplace".

Re:Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

Political contributions are not the same as "bribing judges".

First, political contributions from corporations are pretty much bribes. If you don't believe that, you're hopelessly naive. Second, if you're going to use quotes, actually include what I said in them. That's what they're for and doing otherwise is misleading. Since I never wrote "bribing judges" you're just making a strawman argument. I wrote "MS has bribed the US courts" which they have, albeit indirectly. They gave people money to get elected and those people, in turn, appointed new people to the justice department who strangely enough let MS off the hook with no punishment and a favorable settlement, after MS had already been convicted by their predecessors. If you can't connect the dots, well you probably are a very blissful person.

Perhaps you'd like to make the same assertions about Google [opensecrets.org] and IBM [opensecrets.org]. Or any other corporation for that matter.

Yes, I would. That is to say, IBM has certainly been guilty of trying to influence the courts with lobbying "donations." As for Google, they certainly have been trying to influence the legislature and the executive branch. Personally, I think all corporations should be banned from making any political contributions, since their is no valid reason for them to be doing so.

If you are indeed trying to convince someone that Microsoft is "bribing" judges or politicians based on what's in that link of yours, as opposed to playing the lobbying game the same way everybody else does, then I'd have to disagree with that.

The lobbying game is about bribing politicians. Just because it is legal doesn't make it any less of a bribe.

Re:Apple

[mmeister]

Apple is, and always has been, a hardware company. Check the numbers, a huge percentage of revenue comes from HW sales. The OS is designed to support those hardware sales. Sales of upgrades to existing hardware customers should not be misinterpreted to mean that Apple is selling its OS to the general public as a software company.

OS X is like the iDrive menu technology BMW built for its cars (and sometimes just as controversial). You cannot buy that Audi car and demand that BMW's iDrive run on it. iDrive was designed for BMW cars. And OS X was designed for Macs. You might be able to hack the iDrive software and get it to run on the Audi system, but that does not mean that BMW is now forced to make iDrive software available to any Audi owner that would like it. BMW may offer upgrades and improvements to existing owners, but that does not mean everyone is entitled to buy iDrive and put it on arbitrary hardware.

Re:Apple

[sexconker]

What?

MS may have gotten a slap on the wrist in the US, but it was a decent slap.

The EU continues to rake MS over the coals and has new, ridiculous demands every few months or so.

Re:Apple

[Free the Cowards]

Apple's hardware is still better. Maybe not in the electrical sense, but in the design sense. At the high end, their towers are often cheaper than the competition, and are generally much better put together. With laptops, the Intel switch has led to a lot of people buying Apple-branded laptops just to install Windows on them. The superior quality of the hardware is definitely something that draws people.

As for the OS, it's clear that you don't really know what you're talking about. OS X borrows some pieces of the kernel and bits of userland from FreeBSD. It's certainly not "based on" FreeBSD. OS X has a continuous UNIX lineage that goes back to far before FreeBSD was even conceived.

Re:Apple

[Hognoxious]

having a very significantly lower failure rate during the first year than any other vendor

If it's just sitting there for people to look at and say "wow!", not much can go wrong.

Re:Apple

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

MS may have gotten a slap on the wrist in the US, but it was a decent slap.

How do you figure. The US still hasn't even made them stop all the violations they were convicted of. The sentence was a fine, which is almost certainly much less than what they made through their criminal actions. They were ordered to open their API as monitored by government regulators... or the regulators would watch them for another 4 years. So MS never bothered. They're just now getting most of the APIs published because of the EU, but still don't have all of them. They still are bundling IE and Web developers still have to code to really old standards because MS won't support newer ones. So basically the US did nothing effective except finding of fact that were used overseas and in private lawsuits.

The EU continues to rake MS over the coals and has new, ridiculous demands every few months or so.

The EU still hasn't even charged MS with abuses they've been convicted of in other jurisdictions. They were moderately effective with regard to abuses in the server OS market, but their remedy for media players has done nothing. They haven't touched the browser market, office suite market, portable document market, etc. All in all the EU has been very, very lenient to date, trying to be diplomatic and hoping the US would do the right thing and break up MS (about the only remedy anyone can expect to work).

Re:Apple

[Shadowmist]

what rot.

This is a non story, who the hell got it past the review..

Slashdot Apple Article Review Qualifiers; Does it do any of the following.....

1. Tell people to use Linux.

2. Knock Apple for not using Linux

3. Knock Apple for not giving away OS X

4. Declare the imminent death of Apple after noting another profitable season, or press grabbing innovation by Apple.

5. Knock Apple for not configuring IPods as Ubuntu servers.

6. Knock Apple.

If it meets any one of these criteria the review process passes.

Re:Apple

[TooMuchToDo]

Perhaps you should start complaining about car dealerships first. They do exactly what you've outlined on a grand scale, yet Apple only has about 5% market share. Me thinks someone is just bitchy they can't get Apple gear cheap.

Re:Apple

[ktappe]

a lot of people buying a system need or want OS X and Apple is the only vendor that sells OS X, so people buy their hardware from Apple, when what they really want is the OS. This is the result of the desktop OS market being monopolized.

Let's do some substitution, shall we? Would you agree with this statement:

A lot of people buying a computer need or want Windows Media Center and Microsoft is the only vendor that sells an OS with WMC, so people buy their OS from Microsoft when what they really want is the WMC. This is the result of the desktop OS market being monopolized.

So should Microsoft be forced to divorce WMC from Windows because some people want WMC but not Windows? Seriously.

Re:Apple

[Registered Coward v2]

With the computer system market, a lot of people buying a system need or want OS X and Apple is the only vendor that sells OS X, so people buy their hardware from Apple, when what they really want is the OS. This is the result of the desktop OS market being monopolized

No, it is result of Apple creating a product that people want. having a product that is in demand is not monopilizing a market. there are plenty of other choices in teh PC market besides Apple.

It seems most people don't have any conception of how a monopoly affect markets, nor on how drastic and wide ranging those affects are. Nor do they seem to understand how detrimental those monopolies are to them.

And I believe you are one of them. A monolplist is able to exert market power to extract rents and limit competition. While Apple can harge more, they do not have the ability to stop others from selling (or giving away, for that matter) an OS and associated hardware. Apple has virtually no market power - their prices are not that far out of line, overall, with the broader market; even if the upgrade price is higher in soem instances. If they really were a monopoly Macs would be selling for a lot more since Apple could raise prices without worrying about competition. In fact, you can get Apple - compatible memory for a lot less; further indicating Apple has no monolpoly power in the PC market.

Apple simply has avoided the commodization that has occured in the rest of the PC market; hence the ability to maintain higher prices..

Ultimately, the test of wether a monopoly is bad is - is the consumer hurt? Certainly not in the PC market place where we have seen as steady drop in price / capabilities ratios of each new generation of machine and OS.

Re:Apple

[Red Flayer]

But the point is, it isn't pure free market capitalism, because one of the markets involved is monopolized, and any economist will tell you, that undermines the free market in both that market and any tied market

A monopoly does not void a free market. What it does is kill the ideal free market, which is a mythical beast that only exists on paper. While you are in spirit correct, please don't confuse the concepts of free market capitalism, which is an economic policy implementation, and an ideal free market, which is a construct used to build economic models.

With the computer system market, a lot of people buying a system need or want OS X and Apple is the only vendor that sells OS X, so people buy their hardware from Apple, when what they really want is the OS. This is the result of the desktop OS market being monopolized.

Well, the answer there is that those people chose OSX, when they could have chosen a different OS -- one that doesn't have hardware restrictions, for example. If Apple chooses to limit their OS by not allowing 3rd-party hardware, that is their choice. Since they do not have a monopoly on OSs, this is not a problem.

I think you're confusing vendor lock-in with monopoly. There is no monopoly abuse here, because there is no monopoly to be abused. One chooses to use OSX knowing they will be locked in; that is part of the purchase decision for OSX. To choose OSX, then complain about hardware restrictions, is like buying a Ferrari and crying "monopoly" because of the price that a certified Ferrari mechanic charges.

IOW, failure to account for all information available at the time of purchase does not equate being a victim of a monopoly.

Re:Apple

[daviddennis]

Actually, with high-end cars you don't have a choice either, since the radio/GPS/etc is tightly integrated with the car. I own a 2000 S-Class Mercedes with the COMND integrated stereo/phone/trip computer/navigation system, which was much hated by reviewers until they checked out iDrive, which was truly loathed. I had to laugh a bit at this.

COMND is actually a very good system, but if for the sake of argument I wanted to swap it out, say for a newer system that used DVDs, I could not. COMND takes up the entire center console including the big LCD and there is no drop-in replacement as there is with older cars with standard stereo mounts.

You could easily replace the stereo in my 1991 S-Class, but it's impossible in the 2000 S-Class and other newer cars.

As for Apple's pricing, I have noticed that for memory it's gone down a lot. The 4GB memory upgrade is $200, which is at least within screaming distance of what it would cost to replace my old RAM. I found out Crucial would charge a bit over $100 for the RAM and it's arguably worth the extra $100-odd to have RAM specifically installed, tested for the computer and included in the warranty.

Needless to say, this was not the case (at least for me) in previous years when the same upgrade cost $400!

As for the other upgrades, basically the cost of upgrades forces me to buy the base system and upgrade myself. No really big deal. Nobody's forcing you to buy those overpriced upgrades. I'm about to buy a Macbook Pro and it's going to be the cheapest model. There's really surprisingly little differentiation between the cheapest model and the middle one for $500 more.

D

Re:Apple

[snuf23]

And apparently unless you are NASA maybe that's a good thing. I oversaw a quarter of a million dollar XSAN install and dealing with Apple Enterprise was a joke. Fucked up quotes, reps (more than once) going on vacation without notice, shipping the wrong product, cocking up the install and not admitting it or sending an engineer out until legal threats were brought to the table.
I found EMC to be way more professional and technically knowledgeable.
Of course this is anecdotal and maybe I just got the moron squad from Apple Enterprise.

Re:Apple

[mmeister]

When he says Apple is a software company, it is in recognition that software plays a key role in its product. Steve is right that it is the software that makes the product unique. Without the "software", Apple would be someone putting out another crappy PC, MP3 player or smartphone.

But the quarterly reports tell the real story. Apple gets its money from hardware sales. It's true other areas (iTunes) are growing, but if you can know whether or not Apple had or will have a great quarter by looking at Mac/MacBook sales, iPod sales, iPhone sales. Last I checked, all four were hardware.

So I think you misunderstand what he means when he calls Apple a software company. They are a software company, but the software is designed to help sell the hardware. That's where their money is (at least right now).

If Apple were to stop selling hardware and only sell software (including licensing OS X), they would lose about 60-70% of their revenue.

Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[sleekware]

Just pay your neighborhood friendly computer geek to install the upgrade for you. You aren't forced to go through the Mac store.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh I think we could figure it out. But we would of course insult you endlessly for buying a Mac and investing into the rape that comes with it.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[kannibal_klown]

You can up the memory without voiding the warranty, at least on the MacBook Pros; I'd imagine on most systems too.

As for the Hard-drives, I don't know.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[gnasher719]

Your NFCG is about 10 times more competent with a PC or PC laptop than with an Apple. Most of them would be lost if you asked them to upgrade your MacBook. You can pay the NFCG now and pay extra to fix their mistakes later or you can pay Apple service now.

Adding memory or replacing the hard drive on a MacBook is trivial (as long as you have a size 0 phillips screwdriver). Anyone who can hold a screwdriver and is not legally blind can do it.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[LaughingCoder]

I bought a MAC mini a few months back at the local MAC store. I asked if there were any spare DIMM slots so I could increase the memory. The answer was "no, and besides you have to do memory upgrades through us or else you void your warranty". Well, I told him I was able to install the memory myself and would do so rather than pay their high prices. As we closed the sale he asked me if I wanted to buy the extended warranty. I said "I just told you I am going to void the warranty as soon as I get it home ... why would I buy the extended warranty?"

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[John_Booty]

I upgraded the hard drive and memory on my MacBook Pro and had no problems with getting my machine serviced by AppleCare on two occasions. And those were full logic board replacements, not cursory looks at the battery or anything.

(It was the first-gen MacBook Pro. Lots of issues with those, although Apple did take care of me.)

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[LWATCDR]

Golly sir those Macs must run on fairy dust and Unicorn poop...
Give me a break it isn't some magical device people. Apple uses off the shelf parts. Apple even provides instructions on how to do it!
http://support.apple.com/kb/HT1270
http://manuals.info.apple.com/en/MacBook_13inch_HardDrive_DIY.pdf
If your local computer guy can READ and use the internet this is a piece of cake.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[gnasher719]

How the hell did i get modded as a troll for not wanting to void my warranty? Morons.

Probably because everyone knows that opening a Mac doesn't void the warranty.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[gnasher719]

Don't you need a Torx #8 to get the drive off its sled?

Would be nice to have, but if you don't have one, then you don't need it :-)

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Firehed]

Not unless they've recently changed the Macbooks. When I had one on loan for a short while I pulled the hard drive just to see how accessible it was, and IIRC it was held in place solely by friction and the little flap thing that covers the back of the drive and the memory slots. No sleds to speak of.

I could be way off here as it was a while ago, but I know that I didn't need any Torx screwdrivers to get at it.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[peragrin]

um what DRM? there is no DRM n the hardware. Apple simply uses the intel upgraded version of the 80's piece of shit tech of BIOS. it is Called EFI and any OS that supports booting from EFI can load on a Mac.

BIOS like PS/2 ports are outdated but stick around because that is all MSFT supports well.

installing hardware in most macbooks does require someone with OCD though. there are lot's of little screws to be undone. My question is how many people actually upgrade memory or hard drives in laptops? by the time they go bad in most cases it is 5-7 years later. It is like large tower computers with dozens of ports for upgrades that rarely if ever get used.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[STrinity]

And really, what idiot would want to own a computer where simple hardware upgrades would void the warranty? That'd be as stupid as building a computer into the monitor so you could never upgrade the screen -- and nobody would be dumb enough to fall for that.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Firehed]

The software side of the new disk is easy - toss in the installer disc and it works its magic. Getting at the hard drive in the MBP is very much a non-trivial process (the standard MacBooks hard drives are as easy to access as anyone could reasonably expect in any laptop). Moving the data across is equally easy, provided you have another machine or a drive enclosure.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Spazmania]

You were modded down because just about everyone knows that it's unlawful to void warranties merely because service wasn't performed by an authorized vendor.

http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/buspubs/warranty.shtm

"Tie-In Sales" Provisions

Generally, tie-in sales provisions are not allowed. Such a provision would require a purchaser of the warranted product to buy an item or service from a particular company to use with the warranted product in order to be eligible to receive a remedy under the warranty. The following are examples of prohibited tie-in sales provisions.

In order to keep your new Plenum Brand Vacuum Cleaner warranty in effect, you must use genuine Plenum Brand Filter Bags.

Failure to have scheduled maintenance performed, at your expense, by the Great American Maintenance Company, Inc., voids this warranty.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Savage-Rabbit]

If your local computer guy can READ and use the internet this is a piece of cake.

I am a FNCG and I don't do HD upgrades on my MacBook Pro myself largely due to warranty issues. If I screw up something up during the installation I'm stuck with the damage but if Apple does they have to replace the machine. Upgrading desktop boxes is, of course, a different story. I don't buy parts from Apple. I can source laptop hard drives for example, from third part suppliers at about 50% of the price my local Apple dealer sells them at. Apple has yet to refuse to install the components I hand them. The last time I upgraded the HD in my MacBook Pro I wanted a 320G disk which the guy in the Apple repair workshop said they wasn't available. I came back like 45 Minutes later after finding one single computer shop in town that sold 320G laptop drives and asked they guy I talked to previously to install it. He wanted to know where I got it from but I just told him it was from another supplier in the city and that it was way cheaper than Apple's upgrade parts and that he should let me know if he could figure out where I got it. When I got the MacBook back from the shop later that day they had installed the drive and OS X but they renamed the drive after the shop where I bought it instead of the default name "Macinstoh HD"...

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Gewalt]

replace hdd on macbook pro: You were thinking of a macbook pro, not a macbook. I know, I know, its stupid of apple to make two dissimilar models of the same basename, but they did it anyways. SO uh, the "pro" version of the mbp is much harder to replace the hdd than the non-pro. A T6 is an absolute must have tool. I just did this a couple of weeks ago. It was easy for anyone who's ever been inside a laptop before.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[morgan_greywolf]

um what DRM? there is no DRM n the hardware. Apple simply uses the intel upgraded version of the 80's piece of shit tech of BIOS. it is Called EFI and any OS that supports booting from EFI can load on a Mac.

The OS checks against a hardware key stored in EFI to ensure it is booting on Apple hardware, right? How is that not DRM?

BIOS like PS/2 ports are outdated but stick around because that is all MSFT supports well.

Windows, Mac OS X and most Linux distros support using USB keyboards and mice out of the box.

My question is how many people actually upgrade memory or hard drives in laptops?

I would imagine a LOT of people upgrade memory in a Macbook. Many Mac users are using high-end applications that process lots of data, like high-end audio and video editing systems, and, therefore, would reap benefits from upgrading the memory in any Macbook. It's not like these things ship with 8GB standard.

Failing hard drives, you're probably right. Notebook HDDs, on average, seem last about 5-7 years, well after the time most people would be upgrading to a new machine anyway.

OTOH, some might need more storage than comes standard. On the third hand, there is portable USB or NAS storage for those who have serious storage needs.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Gewalt]

No, you'd use superduper to just bitcopy the entire volume. It's free. It's fast. It just works. (yes, I had to add that last part)

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[norminator]

we would of course insult you endlessly for buying a Mac and investing into the rape that comes with it.

I guess friendly (as in neighborhood friendly computer geek) doesn't mean what it used to mean.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[norminator]

I believe he's referring to the Trusted Platform Module, which is not the same as EFI, it does exist in the hardware, and it's at least part of the reason why you can't just run an OS X installer on a generic Intel PC and expect it to install.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Jellybob]

When I had one on loan for a short while I pulled the hard drive just to see how accessible it was

Remind me never to lend you anything... I have a feeling you might hand it back to me, along with a bag of "spare" screws that were left over after you put it back together again.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[MrNaz]

"By paying extra, we get to avoid the ignorant twit who thinks that computer brands are a religion."

Err... you're saying you avoid that by going *to* the Apple store?

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Jellybob]

My question is how many people actually upgrade memory or hard drives in laptops?

One of the first things I did when I bought my MacBook was to double the RAM, and replace the hard disk with a 250Gb one.

And yes, that was because of the horrendous premiums they charge on their hardware upgrades.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Penguin's Advocate]

My uncle is legally blind and was able to upgrade the hard drives in both his, and his wife's MacBooks himself. So you can knock off at least one of those requirements.

Re:Neighborhood friendly computer geek

[Ecuador]

Adding memory or replacing the hard drive on a MacBook is trivial (as long as you have a size 0 phillips screwdriver). Anyone who can hold a screwdriver and is not legally blind can do it.

The whole point is that a Mac User will never have a Phillips or Sony or even a Toshiba screwdriver. If there is no Apple screwdriver to do the job, the hard drive is irreplaceable as far as the Mac User is concerned.

200% cooler

[Anonymous Coward]

They cost 200% more because owning an apple makes you 200% cooler.

Re:200% cooler

[192939495969798999]

It's also a convenience charge, similar to how getting an umbrella at wal-mart is cheaper than getting the same umbrella at a golf course during a tournament once it starts raining.

Desktops too

[fyngyrz]

This is also true of Apple desktops.

Simple check: Go to the Apple store, and price a Mac Pro 8-core with the basic amenities; 2 GB ram, the recommended HD. Then price it maxed out; one HD of the largest size (1/2 TB last I looked) and 32 GB of RAM. Finally, take the original price and add 32 GB of RAM in 4 GB sticks (the Mac Pro can take 8 sticks) from a reputable online store. The difference is astonishing.

I have a recent Mac Pro, and I expanded it the sensible way; the amount of money I saved by doing that is staggering. I've had absolutely no problems.

Re:Desktops too

[Llywelyn]

Apple has always gouged on the RAM prices. This is not news.

Re:Desktops too

[SeanMon]

You must take into account, though, that the Mac Pro takes Fully-Buffered DDR2 DIMMs at 800MHz. Newegg.com doesn't even offer 4GB FB-DIMMs at 800MHz...

Re:Desktops too

[fastest fascist]

Well, that's interesting actually. I'll probably get a bit of extra memory for my Mac Pro soon enough, so I was looking into my options. I noticed that the user manual that came with the Mac says you should install 800 MHzz ddr2, but what's actually in there now, straight from the factory as far as I can tell, is 667 MHz sticks... At least that's what the labels say they are.

Re:Desktops too

[dave420]

NewEgg might not, but almost every single memory reseller has them. Not to mention the massive list of vendors on Google Product Search.

Re:Desktops too

[Free the Cowards]

There are other stores besides Newegg, you know.

Go to ramseeker.com, look at Mac Pro memory. 4GB FD-DIMMS (not only with the right electronic specs, but with the proper heat sink, very important as the Mac Pro effectively requires a nonstandard heat sink) for $290 each.

Re:Desktops too

[mrbofus]

As of this writing, Apple charges $1,500 for 8GB [4x2GB], while Crucial charges $707.99 for the same. And yes, it's for fully buffered ECC DDR2 RAM. The difference only gets larger as you get more memory. Apple charges $9,100 for 32GB [8x4GB] of RAM. Crucial charges $417.99 for each 4GB ECC DDR2-800 chip, making it $3,343.92 for 32GB RAM. So at 8GB, Apple is charging 212% more, while at 32GB, Apple is charging 272% more. And of course, at 32GB, the actual dollar amount of $5,756 saved is huge.

Re:Desktops too

[BonzinoMuschweshe]

http://www.transintl.com/store/category.cfm?Category=2725&CFID=207210&CFTOKEN=3548391&RequestTimeOut=500

It costs a lot to be trendy:

[Anonymous Coward]

Doesn't matter if it's trendy clothing, a trendy car or anything else, it's going to be more expensive if it's the 'cool' thing to do.

Re:my personal experience...

[ari_j]

Everything you said makes logical sense, except for "supply and demand" at the end. You just got done saying that the demand is low!

Re:my personal experience...

[PachmanP]

my personal experience is that the Apple hardware is far superior and requires less upgrades and that is why the cost is much more. Supply and Demand.

Drink much kool aid?

Oil change at the dealer

[CambodiaSam]

I get my oil changed at the dealer for various reasons:
1. I don't know how to change my own
2. I prefer to use the dealer since they can do warranty replacement on the spot if something is broken

Yes, I pay probably twice as much, and I like it. Kinda seems like the same situation here.

Re:Oil change at the dealer

[gEvil (beta)]

Well, you're obviously just a noob sucker who doesn't know a thing about his car. You should have your license revoked until you know how to rebuild an engine from scratch. : p

Re:Oil change at the dealer

[wiggles]

Two thoughts on that.

1. You should learn; it isn't that difficult. I was changing my mother's car's oil at 15. Just make sure you don't drop the drain plug in the pan :)
2. In my state, any reputable mechanic can do warranty repairs. You should check with your local mechanic to see if you have similar laws on the books.

As a rule, I never go to a dealer for anything except for warranty repairs, but those are extremely rare since I've only owned one car with an actual warranty (and it was a Honda). Dealers will charge you double for parts and extra for labor, and they screw up oil changes fairly regularly -- usually by over-tightening the oil filter.

Beware of local guys, though. Some will try to rip you off, but if you find a local guy with integrity and establish a good relationship with them, you'll be much better off than going with a dealer.

Re:Oil change at the dealer

[maxume]

Do they charge twice as much for the oil, or just more for the labor?

Re:Oil change at the dealer

[barzok]

You should learn; it isn't that difficult. I was changing my mother's car's oil at 15. Just make sure you don't drop the drain plug in the pan

Get a Fumoto valve, never worry about dropping the plug again

Duh?

[MBCook]

I like Apple. I've got my MacBook Pro next to me. At home we have another MBP, a MacBook, and an iMac. In the past we've owned numerous other Macs (all the way back to an LC II).

So let me say... duh. It is very well known that Apple does this. Read any thread on Macs here on /. Someone says Macs are great computers. Someone replies "but look what they charge for RAM!". The someone else says "well yeah, Apple is like that, buy the RAM separately."

This OLD. This is STALE. This is well known by anyone who watches this stuff. It's stupid, but Apple is allowed to price gouge if they want. This is just some "journalist" writing about a "discovery" to get page-views.

Just don't buy your upgrades from Apple.

And don't give this guy the hits he doesn't deserve.

Re:Duh?

[UnknowingFool]

Yep, but also watch out when Apple has specials. When I bought my MacBook, I was going to get the base model and upgrade the HD and RAM to get it to be nearly the same as the middle model.

But they were running a special at the time (I think it was a Back-to-School special). For about $200 more, I could double my RAM, upgrade my HD and get a slightly faster processor. So I just paid the $200 upgrade as it would have cost me as much just to buy the parts.

Re:Duh?

[BasharTeg]

I would like to also declare along these lines that the following subjects are also OLD and STALE:

Microsoft abused their monopoly power to destroy old competitors such as Netscape and others.

Pointing out that IE6 and IE7 are horribly not web standard compliant.

Pointing out that older versions of Microsoft products (XP SP1, IIS 5, IE6) had massive security problems.

See, because it's Apple, Apple fanbois think that once their problems have been discussed (and minimized, rationalized, and written off as not problems at all) that even if these problems are never addressed they should never be discussed again. But we don't afford any other vendor that courtesy. We don't say "Oh, everyone knows Microsoft's browsers aren't very standards compliant, lets not discuss that again."

It's comments like this, trying to knock people who are pointing out that this problem STILL exists, and the legion of fanbois posting on this story coming up with 20 different reasons why Apple has to charge this much and why it makes sense, or posts like yours saying this isn't news that's just how Apple is, stop talking about it, that make the best response in the whole set of threads: "Kool aid much?"

Yes, Apple can price gouge if they want. Yes, we can and will talk about it.

And yes, I own a Macintosh, an Apple TV, an iPod nano, and I have about $2,000 into iTunes store so far. --- (Apple fanboi street cred)

Re:200% more?

[ari_j]

Cut him some slack. He also said that "Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves" (emphasis mine) when this is almost certainly not the literal meaning of ripping off.

Time != Dollars?

[Anonymous Coward]

I can change the hard drive in a Dell in a conservative 4 minutes, to do the same in a MacBook Pro takes 40 minutes and chances are it is going back together bent with a couple screws stripped.

Re:Time != Dollars?

[PrimeWaveZ]

I agree with the other poster. If it takes you 40 minutes to do a hard drive in a MacBook Pro, unless you're a consumer, you have no business being paid to swap drives in a MacBook Pro.

Those machines are also EASIER than the old 15" PowerBook, where one would have to more artfully bend the metal clips above the optical drive back into place before reinstalling the top case. That procedure was the indicator of a tech's experience on Macs.

And if you strip screws on a MacBook Pro, you need to throw your cheap Chinese 99c store tools away and buy some Wiha drivers (or another quality set of tools.)

Re:my personal experience...

[mastershake82]

A fool and his money are easily parted.

Not Quite a Rip Off

[Anonymous Coward]

I've tested Apple ram and non-Apple ram (most of the big ones) extensively as part of what I do for a living, and it is very much the case that Apple ram has a very, very low rate of failure--one of the lowest actually. I don't know about the rest of their hardware, but part of the Apple deal that I do know about is how they pay for their care plans, which almost always cost Apple more than it costs the customer...

They do it by rigidly controlling the components of the hardware---they're not about to replace non-Apple ram for you when it fails for free--or at all. In return for using all Apple components, you get what amounts to the best guarantee (for the first year) in the industry. In order to pay for that level of care, Apple charges more for its components.

I'm not sure that it's not a rip-off in some sense, but anyone who's dealt with Dell's customer service in the last three years knows veyr well that you get what you pay for.

Re:Not Quite a Rip Off

[initdeep]

kool aid stains are showing.

The RAM that comes in the Apple products is the SAME RAM that comes in the Dell products.

its made in the same country and in the same plant, on the same assembly line, and purchased through the same distribution channel.

It's a commodity.

Or are you goingto tell me that Micron makes a special "Apple only" ram that they rigorously test to make sure is the very best stuff out there and then only offer it to Apple while at the same time taking the reject ram and selling it to their other oem customers?

not likely.
They'd be down to selling ram to apple only pretty quickly if their failure rate was that bad for the others.

I'll also point out this holds the same for Seagate and hitachi for hard drives.

A pet peeve

[professorguy]

Hear, hear!

A percentage should never be used with either the term "more" or "less." It should always be "of." Then any ambiguity is eliminated.

Apple's hardware costs 200% of Dell's.

The worst is when someone says "This costs ten times less than that!" Really? The price is NEGATIVE 900% of that? Better is "This costs 10% of that."

Of course

[Just Some Guy]

In other news: radio upgrades cost more on a BMW than on a Hyundai. With that or with RAM upgrades, you can either do it yourself (or hire someone), or you can let the dealer do it. Guess which is always more expensive?

Apple is quite literally ripping off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves.

That would literally hurt.

Re:Of course

[Lumpy]

In other news: radio upgrades cost more on a BMW than on a Hyundai.

no they dont. the local Car audio shop charges the same price for a specific stereo to be installed in a car. you MIGHT need some additional gear to make it fit in the BMW because of their stupid systems like GM has but it's no more money.

now at the dealer is a different story. only fools get work or upgrades at the dealer.

Re:Of course

[Just Some Guy]

no they dont. the local Car audio shop charges the same price for a specific stereo to be installed in a car.

Right, which is analogous to saying that the local computer shop will charge the same to upgrade an Apple or a Dell.

now at the dealer is a different story. only fools get work or upgrades at the dealer.

Which was my whole point. Buying RAM from Apple is like buying a CD changer from BMW. It's not going to be better than what you could get from a local audio shop, and is almost guaranteed to cost you a lot more.

quality of components isn't the only cost factor

[Lazy Jones]

There's a lot more that determines pricing apart from "quality" (you mean cost) of components and greed. First and foremost, there is cost of labor (although I doubt that Apple employs expensive US/European people for assembling their stuff). Also don't underestimate the cost benefit of having efficient logistics / infrastructure for assembly.

Also, compared to most smaller market players, both Apple and Dell are outrageously overpriced in this regard.

But..

[Junta]

The thing is not about the 'dealer' generically overcharging. It's about Apple overcharging more than other vendors overcharging. All of them charge more for options for the general philosophy you hold justifying it, but overcharging more than a comparable competitor....

BTW, I did have the dealer change my oil during warranty because they sent me coupons for free oil changes for the duration of my warranty, but in the end, I find it hard to see how an oil change could break anything else, so I do it myself now that it is out of warranty.

Re:But..

[wass]

but in the end, I find it hard to see how an oil change could break anything else, so I do it myself now that it is out of warranty.

You'd be surprised what can go wrong from a simple oil change. Back in high school I worked as a mechanic. I wasn't ASE trained, so all I was able to do were oil changes and tires.

Check out the following things one of the mechanics did at the garage (it wasn't me):

The first thing is to set it up on the lift, and you have to know where to do it, on the pinch weld or on a support part of the frame, etc. A minivan came in for a simple oil change. So this guy set it up totally wrong on the lift, it wasn't supported by the frame, but by the outer chassis, which got totally warped as he lifted the car by that. He got fired for that move, but only because that was his third royal screw up in 3 days.

The screw up this guy made before that was also from an oil change. The guy drained the transmission fluid, put in 4 quarts of oil, never checked the dipstick. (This is ridiculous because you never just assume it's 4 quarts, you always check the dipstick for the proper fill level). The owner drove the car a little ways down the road, then called from a pay phone to say his car stopped working. Brilliant. I have no idea if the transmission was damaged from running empty.

The screw-up prior to that, a car hood's hydraulic prop rod wasn't holding the hood up, so he wedged his hammer in there to hold it. When he was done, he just slammed the hood shut without removing the hammer, causing major hood damage.

I myself went to change the oil on a car where the drain pan threads for the plug were totally stripped, and the previous garage that did the oil change used sealant to keep the oil from leaking out. Luckily we were able to retap the threaded hole and put in a new drainpan plug, which worked nicely.

I've also seen cars where the previous oil change mechanic put installed an entirely-wrong oil filter, possibly damaging the threaded stud that it screws into. Putting in the wrong filter can mess up oil pressure levels and other problems.

So yes, anything can go wrong from simple oil changes.

Another point is regarding going to a general garage versus a specialist that works only one one make. If a garage is just working on Hondas or Fords, they're much less likely to screw up setting it up on the lift, or they'll know that when you replace a Honda's timing belt you always replace the water pump that is right there. Or they'll know that an obscure gasket on 2003 Ford Taurus fails quite easily (I'm making this example entirely up), so they don't need to waste time tracking down the problem, etc.

True, but very old news

[mollymoo]

It's true that Apple gouge on upgrades, but it's hardly a new phenomenon. They were doing it 4 years ago when I bought my first Mac and were doing it well before then too. It's a form of price discrimination, similar in that way to rebates and coupons. Those willing to expend more effort (fit their own RAM, fill out a rebate) effectively pay a lower price which allows the store to sell to a broader range of customers while maximising profit.

Change your own oil! Or don't!

[erroneus]

Sometimes (the last two times) I change my own [automobiles'] oil. Sometimes I don't. The point is whether or not I feel capable or up to it and whether or not the money and time I spend is worth more or less than the money.

Personally, I wouldn't dream of paying someone to work on my computers. But that's just me... and probably most everyone here has similar sentiments. HOWEVER, the masses think of computers as difficult, scary and complicated beasts and would rather pay. If they bought an Apple, they are no stranger to the belief that they pay more but are getting more. While the latter is debatable, that's not the point. The point is that they are more than likely very comfortable with paying whatever price they end up paying or else they would seek less expensive alternatives... and there *are* alternatives. This is a classic "what the market will bear" capitalism. Leave it alone.

Re:200% more?

[fyngyrz]

An 8-headed display Mac Pro is $3239. To which you add four 1TB drives, and RAM, both from elsewhere. You chuck out (or sell, it's very good hardware) the 2 GB stick of RAM and the HD it comes with.

RAM is $699 per 8GB (as pairs of 4GB sticks @ memorysuppliers.com); so you need $2800 for 32 GB; a 1 Tb drive is $190 (WD Caviar GP WD10EACS Hard Drive @ buy.com), so you need $760 for four drives. Total:

$3239 - macpro w/wifi, 8 display outputs (4x ATI 2600 XT 256MB), 2.8 GHz
$2800 - ram
$ 760 - drives
---------
$6799...

Same configuration (32 GB, 4x1 TB drives) from the Apple store:

$13,989.00

Or a little of both

[phorm]

In other news, people pay for service. Seriously, I don't know many places at all that charge less than $40-50 min for a lot of simple things like putting in a stick of RAM. I do charge less - which most private clients comment on - but I only do that when I have the time to bother.

You are paying for the service. It's not a new thing. Have a look at internet hosting providers, where many will charge you an extra $60/month for an extra gig stick of RAM, or $600 outright to have it installed.

As for the quality of components, it's well known that Dell - and many others - use shit components. The last few Dell's I serviced (and I avoid them if at all possible now) had cheap, no-name brand BS boards, bargain-basement RAM, and feather-light cruddy PSU's. On top of this, oft-times stock components (floppy drives, etc) would not work in them, due to special case-configurations (such as the drive-screws being on top instead of bottom) that worked only with Dell components. The dell components were still genero-brand crap, but higher priced and altered enough that they were the only ones that fit.

So is it ripping off customers? Well, they're definitely paying more. But I'd consider a long-lasting, reliable PC at $1500+ a deal compared to a $500 unit that runs like crap and may decide to die (and take my data with it) anytime.

I haven't disassembled any of the newer macs in awhile though, but why not buy the parts and - if you don't want to pay Apple to install them - get a local geek to do the job?

Re:Or both

[BytePusher]

Not that I love DELL or anything, but I've found their business level systems are very reliable. They tend to be very picky about what they will sell you, because they want to make absolutely sure it will work fine so they don't have to provide support later. In addition I think you'll find DELL upgrades over priced as well, just not nearly as bad as Apple.

Re:my personal experience...

[silentrob]

my personal experience is that the Apple hardware is far superior and requires less upgrades and that is why the cost is much more.

Right... because Apple's memory comes from a *completely* different part of Tiawan than Dell's.

Literally Ripping What Off Consumers?

[greenskin]

If Apple is literally ripping off consumers, I think you forgot your direct object. Maybe Apple is quite literally ripping the arms off those who aren't able to upgrade hardware themselves? Why isn't this bigger news?

Re:200% more?

[Danimoth]

Actually, the numbers shown in the article ARE 3x as much. So yes, 200%

Isn't that the idea?

[Qwavel]

Apple is a premium brand, so you pay more for everything.

One of the ideas behind this strategy is that you are trying to attract primarily the most 'price-insensitive' customers. These are, after-all, the most desirable customers.

One can see how it pays off with the recent AT&T deal. Apple got the best of the deal, but AT&T justified it to their shareholders by reminding them that these are the best customers you can get.

Of course, getting these customers is not as easy at just raising your prices - being the #1 cool brand is the key and is very expensive in marketing etc. - but the upside is huge.

Re:my personal experience...

[EastCoastSurfer]

Huh? We're not talking about the base hardware here. We're talking about the upgraded components you can get. Those components are the same ones you can buy on pricewatch or anywhere else. Anyone who is buying RAM or HDs from the Apple store is getting completely ripped off.

And what does supply and demand have anything to do with it? Trust me, Apple has plenty of computers to sell to anyone who wants one.

Wow, after about 20 years this hits the news?

[Shawn Parr]

I've been an Apple user for quite some time, and quite frankly, this is not news. This has always been the case.

Any time I configure a machine for myself, or help someone configure their machine, I always set any Apple accessories to the minimum, then budget in an order from Newegg, OWC, etc, for any RAM and HD expansion needed.

On one hand, yeah it sucks, however many of the newer laptops, especially the Macbook (not pro) line have made it very easy to swap out RAM and HDs, so it really isn't that much of an issue. The one place that you really have no option is if you want to upgrade the CPU.

Is it a money grab from Apple for those who don't know better/are timid of their own upgrades/don't care? Does it really matter? Quite frankly if you don't research before buying anything you are probably going to get taken. This also increases the market for 3rd party upgrade retailers from Mac users who are in the know.

I know there is this stigma that Mac users only care about looking cool and being clueless, however many of the Mac/Apple users I know do not really fit into that niche at all. Many of us chose the machines we have because they fulfill the needs we have, can run the software we desire, and at a price point we are happy with. Most of us have machine that look a bit worse for the wear due to being used day in and day out both in offices and on-site. Just because Apple marketing likes to play the 'cool' person card whenever possible to grow brand recognition, does not mean that there are not serious professionals out there using the platform for serious work.

Steak

[greyhueofdoubt]

"Can you believe it? When I go to the local steakhouse, they charge me more than twice what the meat itself actually cost! I can grill porterhouses for the whole family for half of the cost of going to the restaurant, and then there's the cost of gas! WTF! Restaurants suck!"

And yet you keep going to them.

Geek squad, car mechanics, roomba accessories, batteries for power tools, printer ink cartridges, etc... the list is long of transactions that grossly favor the seller. This is business. Things are not priced according to their material cost, they are priced based on their market value. They cost what they are worth to the target market.

You could sit all day making little beaded merkins with fur trim and I won't pay you a damned cent because I don't want your damned merkins. You get paid what you're worth. Apple gets paid what their products are worth on the market. They have done the math and figured that they make more money by charging X dollars and losing a few customers than charging X to more customers.

I hate it too and when I do buy apple hardware I downgrade the memory as far as I can in order to save money by buying it elsewhere.

Think of it this way: Buying RAM at newegg or wherever is cheaper than buying it from apple, but it's also cheaper than buying it from dell. So skipping the RAM from both companies saves you money. Right?

Maybe you feel like people are getting ripped off, but that's just because you're sensitive to this area of the market. I think people are getting ripped off whenever they pay a premium for something made out of 'aircraft grade aluminum' or titanium or whatever. I work with those materials all the time and the phrase 'aircraft grade aluminum' is as useless as saying mil-spec or heavy duty. There are mil-specs for shitty things, too. 'Heavy duty' batteries are among the worst. And aircraft aluminum ranges in strength from steel down to something you can rip with your hands.

So screw people who can't open the memory access panel on their computers. Apple has free and detailed instructions on how to do that for all of their hardware. If you're paying that much for RAM, then you're also probably the kind of person who pays $45 for someone to do their oil change or $6 for someone to make their coffee for them.

Again: Market value.

-b

Wow!! I didn't know

[LM741N]

that Apple still made computers. Thought they were in the online music business or something.

Oh apple, why are you so lame?

[ckuttruff]

This is not about some argument about which OS is better Microsoft of OS X or linux (cause linux clearly wins hands down), but come on Apple...

Really? Check out ram upgrades on their site - about 100 dollars / gig. On newegg or tiger direct for the same crucial ram, it's about 20 dollars / gig (sometimes less).

So absurd... get a grip apple, you're not that cool. Your advertisements are :P But in all other respects, you are so not legit.

This is news?

[noewun]

Three rules for owning Macs:

1) Do not talk about Fight Club.

2) Never buy the first generation of hardware.

3) Never order RAM or drives from Apple.

Seriously, this is old news. Buy the machine bare bones, order the stuff thuird party and install it yourself. As a bonus, it gives you an excuse to buy a set of Torx drivers!

Re:my personal experience...

[SL1200MKII]

Sorry to burst your bubble but I just took apart 2 macbook pros over the weekend, to see exactly what the hype over the hardware is all about. Besides the well engineered layout of the mobo, there is nothing special about the components that apple uses. They use the same Samsung/Micron DDR2 memory module as Dell, Lenovo and other vendors. They use the same Hitachi hard drives, which from my experience is inferior compared to Seagate drives (Thought I have heard that some macbooks do come with seagate drives). The processor is the same Intel processor as everyone else. So while the Macbook pro as a whole is a good laptop, I would have to disagree that its hardware components are far superior compared to Dell or other PC counter parts - it's the same hardware after all.

Apples are great! IF you have lots of money...

[Yaddoshi]

I like Apple computers. Sadly, I also prefer to get the best bang for my buck. I don't change my own oil, but at the same time I do fix my own appliances, repair and build my own computers, and a number of other do-it-yourself type things because frankly, my family of five is single-income and I'm not exactly getting rich from what I do. Therefore, while I wouldn't mind owning a Mac, I just can't bring myself to part with the cash, even knowing that I could purchase and install upgrades myself without too much hassle. The system I built for myself for around $950 would easily be around $2500-$3000 if purchased from Apple, and I just don't have a few grand lying around (nor do I want that kind of credit card debt).

Let me fix that for you

[GameboyRMH]

Fashionable vendor charges more for service than mass-market vendor.

Film at 11.

There fixed it for you :)

Apple computers have their uses to professionals, but to the average Joe on the street it's just a more fashionable (and perhaps reliable) computer - and those are the people who are getting fleeced because they don't know how to swap out some computer parts.

Re:Let me fix that for you

[iamapizza]

After much analysis of this article and the /. post, the word "DUH" comes to mind.

Re:Let me fix that for you

[MrMarket]

...and those are the people who are getting fleeced because they don't know how to swap out some computer parts.

I'm not sure if the newer macbooks are better, but it was a HUGE pain to replace the hard drives in the old iBooks. I suspect there are quite a few who know how to do it, but would rather pay more for someone else to do it for them.

Re:200% more?

[JoeMerchant]

It has always been thus (at least since Intel Macs came around), and well known in the Apple aftermarket community, too. Buy your RAM in the aftermarket - but please get the good stuff (it's still much cheaper than from Apple.)

The remarkable thing is the bargain they give on the base MacPro system - last time I priced equivalent 8 core Linux boxes, you'd have to pay 25% more to get equivalent hardware with no OS installed.

Caveat emptor - shop wisely and save some money. And, if you're worried about your AppleCare warranty, just reconfigure yourself back to 100% factory parts before making the service call.

Re:my personal experience...

[gEvil (beta)]

Drink much kool aid?

OH YEAH!!!

Re:I don't think that means what you think it mean

[Chris Burkhardt]

From your link:

exploitation, esp. of those who cannot prevent or counter it.

That is what "ripping off" means in this context, but that is not what it literally means. Literally it means something more like, "to break off with a shearing force." It's humorous how often English speakers use the word literally when they mean the actually mean the thing figuratively.

Apple's prices are Completely Justified

[aapold]

Why? Because people are willing to pay it. If they weren't, then they would lower their prices until they were.

It has nothing to do with the technology or anything else other than a business decision, aimed at making more money.

Same here w/o AppleCare

[Nicolas MONNET]

Had upgraded my MacBook to 2G for 40â instead of the 200â it would have cost on the Apple store, and put in a 160G HDD ... and had it serviced for /free/ due to a warranty extension on the battery.
Unfortunately they did something wrong, the system doesn't recognize whether the power adapter is plugged in or not. Weird.

I'd likely pay Apple for a larger iMac hard drive

[PrimeWaveZ]

Because even as someone who works on those models, I really hate opening the glass/aluminum iMac models. Suction cups and dust rollers bug the crap out of me.

I would not, however, ever pay Apple for RAM upgrades. EVER. Unless I hit the lottery and didn't care about the extra $$$.

Re:quality of components isn't the only cost facto

[aapold]

Aside from where their labor is done, we just had an article on here recently detailing how apple pays its employees LESS than its competitors..."

Oh Please

[Kneo24]

Just because it might have the "duh" factor around here, that doesn't mean that Cnet's target audience is nearly as tech savvy as the rest of us. Besides, it gives us a reason to bitch about something.

This is easy, kids...

[Suzuran]

When Apple sells you upgrade hardware, they guarantee the upgrade hardware you bought works with the hardware you have. This guarantee places them at legal liability; You can sue them if it ends up being broken and they refuse to fix it. If you go buy RAM from the big-box store they do not guarantee it will work in your computer. Apple does. You are paying for their legal liability if the memory ends up being out-of-spec or something.

You could say the same thing about IBM selling parts for zSeries machines, or Sun and Sun parts. This is not uncommon in the workstation and higher markets. It is uncommon for PCs, and since the average slashbot has never seen anything other than PCs, they don't understand it.

Besides that, if the price is too high, don't buy it. There is no grounds on which to demonize Apple for charging what the market will bear. Apple (or Dell, or anyone else) is under no obligation to provide you a computer at whatever price you believe to be reasonable. You are not entitled to a Macintosh. (Insert California government joke here.) They charge what they want, and you pay them if you are willing. If you don't want to pay Apple's premium, don't pay it. If there are not enough buyers willing to pay the prices Apple sets, they will eventually be forced to lower their prices or go out of business. This is like me demanding IBM sell me a 2066 for $1500 because "disks are disks and it's just a big PC anyway, and I could build one off Newegg for $700"

Re:XServes Too..

[Firehed]

Yeah the Xserves are insane. I called them up asking whether I can upgrade the drives myself and they said that you have to buy at least the 80GB units to get the drive trays. A $3000 machine and it comes with one 80GB drive and two useless blanking plates (and only a single quad-core xeon to boot)? Screw that. I just pieced together an 8-core/2GB/2x80GB 1U from Dell for $1700; even if you add $1000 to that for the OS X Server Unlimited-users version, you're still $700 cheaper in specs.

I'm willing to pay a premium to get a better product that works right the first time, but Apple is REALLY milking it on the pro-oriented hardware.

Watching this stuff

[tepples]

This OLD. This is STALE. This is well known by anyone who watches this stuff.

The point of the article could be to get more people to watch this stuff.

It's the "Mac Tax".

[argent]

This isn't news. You get the same results any time you're buying from a software company with a hardware sales model, where the cost of the software is bundled into the hardware. It's the same if you're buying from Cisco, Network Appliance, or anyone else.

If OS X is worth an extra 40% for the base hardware, plus whatever the markup is for bundled upgrades, then you pay the extra for it. If it's not, then you don't. If you're buying Mac hardware to run Windows or Linux, well, you're an oddball minority at best.

Cost is really half...

[CrazyTalk]

I have both Dell and Mac laptops - the dell gets replaced every 2 years, while my Apple laptop has lasted 4 (without any upgrades). Need to have the complete picture.

Need To Look Up "Rip-Off"

[Illbay]

I was a teen in the 70s, and "rip-off" was part of our jargon.

A "rip-off" is unwitting theft or cheating. To "rip-off" someone, as a verb, is to steal from, hoodwink, or otherwise cheat someone else who is not privy to what is happening before the fact.

In this case, it is obvious that anyone doing their casual homework can figure out they are paying a premium for the same hardware on an Apple machine vs. a Dell or HP. This is hardly a "rip-off." It is simply the market at work.

Apparently, Apple feels that their customers are willing to pay that premium. They are charging what the market will bear. That's not a "rip-off."

An example of the latter would be a "switcheroo," substituting inferior components for what was advertised, for instance.

NOTE: I DO NOT OWN OR USE APPLE'S COMPUTER PRODUCTS; I OWN ONE 80GB IPOD "CLASSIC, AND THAT'S IT. I JUST LIKE PRECISE LANGUAGE.

Re:Need To Look Up "Rip-Off"

[Lucidus]

What an odd post, coming from someone who claims to like precise language. "Rip-off' has always been used in precisely this sense; the most common usage, "What a rip-off," simply means that something costs more than you think it should, or more than you think it's worth. The implied outrage is largely metaphorical, and active hoodwinking is not necessarily involved.

Furthermore, "rip-off" is still quite common in colloquial speech--"part of our jargon"--as evidenced by its appearance in the summary. No-one needs a lecture on the subtleties of it usage.

Assuming Apple will sell you the upgrade...

[foxtrot]

In some cases, Apple won't even sell you the upgrade. They don't sell a 15.4" Macbook Pro with a WUXGA screen-- but Dell will put a WUXGA screen in one of their 15.4" widescreen laptops. Imagine what it would cost if they would!

And at least for the CCFL-backlit Macbook Pros, the parts are directly interchangeable. Plug-and-bolt-compatible. (http://www.hiresmacbook.com has details; that's how I did mine)

The true measure is TCO

[nrkmann]

Who cares what it costs or what the maintenance is? What you should be concerned about is Total Cost of Ownership. I have found Apple computers more expensive up front, with almost no hardware maintenance, little software maintenance, and greater longevity. This has equated to a lower TCO vs. WinTel computers... nrk

Typical of Apple

[Bullfish]

and it is one of the reason that Apple was crushed by the PC back in the day. Apple was simply too damn greedy. No, they don't market to the tech savy, but then neither does Dell. Dell built their business on value and good customer service (now, not so much).

The point is that if your mac was expandable (rarely were they upgradeable), you paid through the nose, hence the jokes about "Appletax". Now a whole new generation can discover it.

And that is why Apple made their money off the iPod in this century.

And this is wrong because?

[pvera]

Apple doesn't forbid you from providing your own upgrades. Anyone that has been around Macs for more than a few months knows where to order the exact memory sticks that they use for each model, at a fraction of the cost.

The 3GB upgrade for my Mac Book Pro was $99 including shipping, Apple wanted $300 or so for the upgrade. This is not an equivalent upgrade, this is the exact memory stick model that Apple was trying to sell me. And it is a customer allowed upgrade, so it does not affect my warranty coverage.

In the past it was not possible to upgrade the hard drives for Apple laptops, nowadays the cases are designed so the hard disk is easy to remove.

It is not a ripoff, Apple is not in the business of selling at cut throat margins by selling volume. They are in the business of selling premium items at a steep markup. It is just one of thousands of businesses in this country that operates the same way.

Go to your local Target and see how some 19" HDTVs are $400 while others cost twice as much. Price can't be the only criteria. There's a reason why a Sony HDTV costs a hell of a lot more than an Olevia.

Re:And this is wrong because?

[letxa2000]

Go to your local Target and see how some 19" HDTVs are $400 while others cost twice as much. Price can't be the only criteria. There's a reason why a Sony HDTV costs a hell of a lot more than an Olevia.

Yes, because one is better than the other. The article is apparently talking about identical upgrades. You yourself mentioned that you could get the *exact* same memory stick for 3x less than what Apple wanted to sell it for. It's not like Apple is selling a better product for a higher price. They're selling the SAME product for a rip-off price.

I agree that it's not news that Apple is severely overpriced. That's been the case since... well, forever, I think. I think their prices are unconscionable. It's amusing, though, that many Slashdotters seem to forgive this sickening level abuse just because they're the hip company.

Re:And this is wrong because?

[DrgnDancer]

Actually, I'm willing to forgive it because it doesn't affect me. I just bought a MacBook. I like it. I had three options: for $1100 I could have a 2.1 Ghz Core Duo, 1 GB of RAM, 120GB HDD, and a CD Burner. For $1300 I could upgrade to a 2.4 Ghz Core Duo CPU, double the RAM, add 40 GB to the HDD, and get a DVD burner. For $1500 I could get a 250 GB HDD and a black case (otherwise it was identical to the $1300 version). I did the math real quick and decided that the $200 for the middle option was a good deal, but the extra $200 more for 90GB more HDD was not (Oh, and a black case... can't forget that). I now own a laptop whose features compare favorably with similar Dell offerings; had I spent the extra I'd have been either foolish or not done my research. If Apple can convince people to part with an extra $200 for a case color, I say power to 'em. I'm just not one of those people. I may even drop $100 for a 250GB HDD and upgrade the silly thing if it becomes a problem... but right now I'm not even filling half the drive.

Apple's gear is perfectly reasonable if you pay attention to what you are actually buying; but just like anyone else they'll charge premiums when they think they can get away with it.

Re:200% more?

[Setheck]

I think the point most people are missing is that, sure it is cheaper to buy from an alternate reseller and install yourself, however the average Joe, isn't able to install himself. The other thing is that you are paying for the labor of a professional to install the item, as well as (in this case) the apple care provided with the item. I have a feeling that apple would frown at opening a computer and seeing 3rd party ram. Another note is that if you take apple.com and dell.com and compare computers, apple's are actually cheaper for what you get. Granted you need to compare EXACT components. Dell likes to cut corners on features most people fail to look for... such as cache on the processor. Go ahead, try it. The problem most people think to be apple being so overpriced is a misconception, really they just don't carry a low end model, they only go down to upper mid-range.

200% cooler = completely correct

[Simonetta]

The comment gets to the core of the entire issue. Apple charges 200% more for the same components because their customers want to pay more. In an extremely wealthy society there is always a group of people who have much more money than the norm, and it is very important to these people that they are able to differentiate themselves from the rest of the population through a series of 'class markers'.

  These are items that only they buy because they are much more expensive than similar items available for the general population. Yes these items are better quality, but the degree of higher price for better quality is much greater than would be justified by the cost of the components. So the wealthy aren't selecting these brand items solely for better quality. They are doing it to identify themselves to the other members of their class.

    There are many companies that have always positioned themselves into this market niche. But Apple is one of the few companies that continues to insist that their excessively high prices are only a direct result of their 'commitment to high quality'. It is ironic that they have been successful at marketing their 'cool factor' by selling commodity components at such a large premium since the entire concept of 'coolness' in the USA is a set of behaviors and lifestyles designed to give dignity to people with little or no money.

    The entertainment industry has been most successful at marketing this contradiction. Apple is the first technology company to do so as well. Even to the point of having their business revolve around a prima-donna rock star personality.

    I've detected this about Apple ever since the introduction of the Macintosh, when this kind of mentality started at Apple. I recommend watching them for amusement, but don't buy their products even second-hand. Buy clones (for personal stereos) or functional equivalents (for personal computers).

    Despite all their grandiose advertisements, Apple has always existed for only one reason: to transfer wealth from the wealthy (who need to have a non-proletariat PC) to Steve Jobs' bank account.

Re:And here demonstrated is the sad truth..

[AnomaliesAndrew]

My Quicksilver G4 burned out 2 hard drives in the 3 years I was covered by my extended warranty (which cost much more than the two hard drives and labor would have.)

Being tech savvy, it was extremely annoying having to wait more than a week each time to have the hard drive replaced and the OS restored by some hack a few towns over.

The initial drive was branded IBM... I don't remember what they replaced it with, but it didn't last long. (Unrelated, I had an IBM ThinkPad with an IBM drive that also died around the same time, and the model number had been discontinued and replaced with a new revision. Maybe this is why Apple moved away from IBM components, and IBM did as well...)

I recently tried to upgrade to the latest version of OS X and it left me with corrupt boot data and a broken OS.

I'm sure they've improved their products since then, but it definitely left a bad taste in my mouth.

All that said, an 8-core mac pro sometime in fall when they are supposedly going to refresh the product line is on my shopping list... I haven't found something with that much power at that price, and I need it for media work.

Re:And here demonstrated is the sad truth..

[omeomi]

You paid more for the hard drives, and my friend's vintage first generation g4 still boots up perfectly on its original hard drive despite being continuously on for its entire life.

I'm reasonably certain that Apple has never manufactured hard drives. If you bought a hard drive from an Apple store, chances are good you could have gotten the exact same hard drive somewhere else. That has always been one great irony of Apple, that users think they're getting better hardware than PC users (and because of discount PC builders, in many cases they are), but dollar for dollar, they're not getting hardware that you can't get on a comparatively priced PC.

Re:Three times as expensive?

[TubeSteak]

You assumption has no basis in reality, yet you were modded up. /. does us all proud.

£90.01 from the Apple configurator. Doing the same upgrade with a Dell XPS M1330 costs just £30.01

30 * 3 = 90
30 + (200% * 30) = 90
Therefore, 90 is 200% more expensive than 30

using the Apple Web site will cost an extra £120. Doing that same swap with the Dell XPS M1330 costs just £40.01.

40 * 3 = 120
40 + (200% * 40) = 120
Therefore, 120 is 200% more expensive than 40

Who knew that "200% more" and "3 times as expensive" worked out to the same thing!?

I didn't read TFA, just assuming they mean 100% more expensive.

Not only does your ignorance do you proud,
the person who modded you up does all of /. proud.
/math, learn it.

Re:And this is news... how?

[Fred_A]

BTW, nice attempt at that "carefully hand crafted computer, made by artisans who trained for decades" canard. Apple is as mass produced as every other product out there (exploding batteries, anyone?). What IS different is that Apple manages to get at least 50% profit out of everything they make.

Apple batteries may explode, but at least they explode with style ! And look at those sticks of RAM, that shade of green obviously wasn't picked at random. That's genius design at work. Reminding you that at the heart of your computer there's still a little bit of nature.
No wonder it's expensive.

Silicon Graphics (and any other maker of workstations that had standard parts in them) used to do the same thing BTW.

OWC does

[ph0rk]

No, but Other World Computing does.

Anyone upgrading mac innards themselves knows about them, or should.

Re:And here demonstrated is the sad truth..

[blhack]

Maybe this is why Apple moved away from IBM components, and IBM did as well

Apple moved away from IBM because Steve Jobs asked for exclusivity on cell, and they wouldn't give it to them.

Re:This isn't about Macs, but parts

[Clockwurk]

Bullshit. The most recent mac I purchased came with cheap HYNIX memory.

Re:This is why I don't buy apple products

[mmeister]

Apparently you've never purchased a PC from a major vendor like Compaq or DELL. I can tell you from personal experience that the price difference dwindles quickly once you go past the bare bones machine prices seen in ads.

I don't have a problem with folks choosing something else because of Apple's pricing. That's the beauty of capitalism. Vote with your wallet.

I do take issue with those same folks demanding that Apple should be making their OS available to them because they want OS X, but want an ultra-cheap PC hardware solution. Apple chooses not to and that is their prerogative. The monopolist arguments others have made are just disconnected from reality.

The laptop RAM issue sounds a bit red herring. Apple has been using standard RAM for quite some time and in most cases, the RAM has been user upgradeable.