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Obama Losing Voters Over FISA Support
Corrupt writes "I've admired Obama, but I never confused him with a genuine progressive leader. Today I don't admire him at all. His collapse on FISA is unforgivable. The only thing Obama has going for him this week is that McCain is matching him misstep for misstep."
Man, you got more issues then you can even imagine.
---- Booth was a patriot ----
Are there any American citizens (who understand what FISA is) that actually support it? I would think that even the right should be against it. If conservatives want to restore traditional American values, then surely preventing the government from using new technology to conduct widespread domestic spying is conducive to that goal.
With both congress and the president's approval rating hovering at below 20%, it is clear that the will of the people is not being represented. The only plausible explanation for FISA is that it is intended an means for the executive branch to seize an even greater imbalance of power, and/or to cover up widespread criminal activity that took place in the last eight years.
When you vote for a bill you don't get to pick and choose what sections you are voting for. It's all or nothing.
Obama voted for an amendment which would remove the telecom immunity provision of the bill, but it didn't pass. So instead of voting to take a way a tool in our war on terror, he voted for the bill as a whole.
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2008/07/10/MN3H11ME7C.DTL
As his campaign manager said:
Sen. Obama has said before that the compromise bill is not perfect. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, Sen. Obama chose to support the FISA compromise."
Opponents, including Judiciary Chairman Patrick Leahy, D-Vt., and Sen. Chris Dodd, D-Conn., argued that a legal exemption is at best premature, because details of the wiretapping program are not yet fully known. But a Dodd amendment that would have stripped out the immunity title received just 32 votes, all of them from Democrats, including Obama, along with Sen. Bernie Sanders, independent-Vt.
That's why we always vote for Lesser Evil, not the Greater Good.
I've admired Obama, but I never confused him with a genuine progressive leader. Today I don't admire him at all. His collapse on FISA is unforgivable. The only thing Obama has going for him this week is that McCain is matching him misstep for misstep
Well, now that Obama has the party nomination, he can't possibly manage to get anything done. Now he has to support all the things Hillery wanted done, while making sure that he seems Conservative enough to attract some of the republicans that don't like McCain. If Obama tries to be different, he risks alienating long-time democrat supporters, if he tries to be the same he risks alienating all the people who want to vote for him for change.
Taxation is legalized theft, no more, no less.
If a higher office candidate has a "D" or an "R" next to their name, they aren't progressive.
That probably goes for any letter, but those two in particular.
FTFA: "Every time I wonder whether I can ultimately vote for Obama in November, given all of his political cave-ins, McCain does something new to make sure I have to."
Thanks for propping up the good ol' two-party system there with your thinking, ma'am. Seriously, there are other bloody candidates out there, and if you don't think you should vote for Obama or McCain, then vote for one of them! It really gets tiring listening to the thinking exhibited by most people, which locks us into the hellhole of a political party system we have.
Change starts with you, and all that.
"16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
the greater of two evils starts winning. If everyone always voted for the lesser of two evils instead of holding themselves politics, the evils would diminish instead of grow.
The guy seriously fudged the bucket with me. I actually had some amount of faith in this dude.
This was the big test to see if he would collapse under the pressure of the telecoms. More money was offered so he decided to go with it.
I am very upset over this but I should not be surprised. He is just another politician. (But lesser of the two evils)
The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
Senator Obama: Because of the miserable failure that George W Bush has been, I have been placing the candidates for this presidential election under strict scrutiny. Until yesterday, I was proud to tell my friends that I supported Barack Obama for President of the United States. Now, I fear that my interests and your interests are not aligned and I can no longer lend you my support. Yesterday, while you did vote for the Dodd amendment, you failed to support a filibuster, and you failed to vote against the revised FISA bill that does for the telecom companies who have implemented surveillance against the American people what Gerald Ford did for Nixon. Being President of the United States means sometimes taking an unpopular stance on an issue despite the outcry of the public. It sometimes means thinking in the long term instead of the short, 24-hour sound-bite news cycle. What you have done today is embolden the elements of the government that tapped Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. and handed them a fresh set of excuses to listen to the phone calls and Internet traffic of the American people. Maybe things work differently in Washington. Maybe the FBI, CIA, NSA, and the president have sworn to Representatives and Senators not to listen to their calls. Maybe the Republicans have sworn to the Democrats not to sabotage them like in the '70s during Watergate. Out in America, away from the halls of power, what protection does the citizen have against those who would gladly violate their expectation of privacy? Might I remind you that the president that suggested this bill also lied to start a war, approved the torture of innocent civilians, and believes himself to be above the law. What you did today was sell The People down the river for political capital. I hope you are proud of yourself. I am not proud of you. You are no different than any other politician, using the politics of fear to get what you want. The only sort of Hope you offer is False Hope - the worst kind because by the time it is identified as such, it is too late. A humble citizen, MasterOfMagic (I put my actual name, but I'm not going to post it here)
In Swedish FISA means to Fart...
It went to the ACLU instead.
I've left the Democratic Party and I won't vote for Obama any longer. Both parties are completely irresponsible and don't deserve any support. Further, I'd support general strikes and mass protests to demand our supposed "inalienable rights" back. They've been alienated from me, a citizen, and I'm pissed off about that.
It's not just FISA, there's also the death penalty for child rapists (is that "progressive"?), pulling out of public financing, and even being inflammatory on abortion despite being pro-choice in the past.
I think I agree with the Huffington Post. Is this the guy everybody got excited about?
Who supported Dr. Ron Paul and came to the conclusion that I would vote for Obama because I believed he would change the world's opinion of the United States.
However, after his vote on FISA, I have decided to throw my vote to Bob Barr, whereas I was previously planning on voting for Obama.
I hope others who were planning on voting for Obama decide to do the same.
The political culture in this country scares me, and I am very afraid of where we are headed. It is a shame to see the Constitution mocked like this. The only hope I have left is in the judicial system which I hope has the balls to stand up to the power grab and strike it down as unconstitutional.
If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
Four years ago I saw an interview with Feingold, the democrat from Wisconsin. I thought he would be the one running this election, and now I wish he were.
I think you underestimate the power of chocolate.
not to be in the US.
Oh, please. Australia banning Fallout 3, Canadian judge overruling a parent's normal punishment, and Britain is officially insane.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/06/11/america/hate.php
http://www.canada.com/topics/news/national/story.html?id=6aaf855a-47e3-4e3f-8709-5b53dcfffff0
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2008/06/25/noindex/nbaby.xml
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/global/main.jhtml?xml=/global/2008/06/25/noindex/nchild.xml
I'll stick with the imperfect USA.
Canada, being so close to the US, still appears to have a little sense:
http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080628/steyn_commission_080628/20080628?hub=TopStories
"I don't know, therefore Aliens" Wafflebox1
Even after following your link to a conservative website I fail to see how what he said is so unreasonable. He is basically saying that we should be like the rest of the world and have our children learn multiple languages early on. Spanish would be fairly useful since there are many people in the US that speak Spanish.
This is my problem with conservative personalities these days. They try to take these things out of context to make it seem like what Obama says is horrible. But every time I look at the full transcript of what he says, he comes off extremely reasonable. This link didn't even hide the context. So really, what's the big deal?
Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
Just go and layer down for while.
At the bottom of the
The rest of those things don't bother me much at all. I don't expect to share that many viewpoints with anyone, to me those are all small potato personal value judgements that people can reasonably disagree about.
The FISA bill is what is really disappointing. It's amazing how overnight it's completely destroyed my opinion of Obama. When is a politician going to have the courage to stand up and point out the simple absurdity of shredding our own constitution, trampling human rights, and sparing no legislation to cover our own asses to fight a threat that is statistically insignificant? The terrorists must just be laughing in their caves right now. Are we such pussies in America that we can't rely on real intelligence and police work to fight terrorists?
This isn't a partisan issue at all, it's the absolute insanity of our times. Obama really sounded like he understood that, then he turns around does the exact opposite. It's not about flip-flopping per se, it's about pretending to know what the biggest, scariest, most obvious problem is in this country, then turning around and pandering to bamboozled middle america huddled in fear thanks to 7 years of fear-mongering by an incompetent who was just trying to muddle through a job that was way wayyy beyond him. If Obama had stuck to his guns (if he even understood the point of what he was saying), he could have used the bully pulpit to bring rationality back to America ala "The only thing we have to fear is fear itself." Unfortunately now his rhetoric has become hollow. I still think he may redeem himself as president, but his most powerful tool, his voice, is now castrated.
It's like somebody lent the guy one of those self help books, but the title is, "How To Be A Dick", and he's turning it into his own personal Bible. Doesn't Obama understand that he gets a huge amount of his support from people who just didn't give a crap about politics before, and who will vanish like smoke if he turns into the same old thing with a pretty face painted on it?
I've calculated my velocity with such exquisite precision that I have no idea where I am.
Tell him so.
The problem is that Obama depicts himself as different from all other politicians, that he claimed he would support a filibuster over telecom immunity, and that he voted to cut off filibuster.
He flat out reneged on an important promise, apparently because he wanted to "move to the center", "accept the compromise (sic)", and "appear tough on terrorism".
All he really did was show that he is just another ethically challenged politician.
Infuriate left and right
It is the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act.
It is the laws that govern how the government may snoop on communications made by people who are not citizens of the United States.
There is no "-1 offended" or "-1 you don't agree with me" mod options for a reason.
Frankly, I don't really don't care that much that the telecoms get off the hook in this instance. Yes, it's a bad precedent, but it's far from the biggest problem here. It's part of a pattern that is far more worrying.
The biggest problem is that the FISA amendments allow the government to destroy surveillance records, or not to keep them in the first place. What possible legitimate purpose could that serve? The telecom thing isn't there to protect the telecoms, it's there to make it impossible for private individuals to determine the scope of the government's intrusion via discovery. Likewise, the amendment prevents states from investigating crimes committed against their citizens.
Clearly, the biggest practical effect of these amendments is to allow the executive branch to engage in criminal activities and obstruct any effort, private or public, to determine the extent of those crimes.
This is not a "liberal" issue. Concealing and destroying evidence shows this is not an argument about the extent to which the President is bound by one law or another, but whether he can exceed his constitutional powers with impunity and then escape accountability. This transcends liberal/conservative divide over the President's "inherent powers", because whatever you think the scope of the President's powers should be, this allows him to exceed that scope.
Post may contain irony: discontinue use if experiencing mood swings, nausea or elevated blood pressure.
McCain likely has 10-15 states because he is conservative, older, and his opponent is not white. Obama might have 5-10. Therefore Oboma has to reassure the people by making them aware that he was born inside the contiguous united states, in fact the heartland, unlike his opponent, and he will not shake things up too much.
Which means allowing this miserable fiasco to continue, at least for a while, and not waste too much time looking back. The republicans can waste billions of dollars on impeachments, et al, beacause they have the support of the people who live on beliefs, not facts. And this is where the issue is.
George Bush was elected on a platform of Christianity, that he had been saved by the power of Jesus. People trust him. He is not too smart, and, like the populous, often works from beliefs rather than facts. So he was elected instead of Gore, who is more of a let's explore the possibilities type of guy, even if the possibilities do not come to fruition, it was fun talking about them. But that is too complex and too easy to attack. In any case, many people trust Bush and think that anything he does is ok.
More importantly, many people believe that foreign terrorists are the danger, or at least non-christrian terrorist, and specifically every Mosque in the world is base for attack on the US, which makes Mosques on US soil an issue. Many people trust Bush to do anything to fight against these threats, and protect the American Way of Life. In fact, the only reason Bush is having trouble now is that he has failed to protect our way of life, we are now forced to buy small cars, and the weak dollar means that we can no longer be so arrogant. But that does not mean Bush is not the most moral man in the country, and what he does comes from a good place.
So Obama voted for an act that in the scheme of things is probably no worse that anything else Bush has done in his best effort to end the traditional transparency and public responsibility that should characterize a democratically elected government. He did this as insurance against a Bush style ad in which is is implied that black men should be kept in prison indefinitely, because giving them a second chance at rehabilitation is too dangerous. He did this as insurance against the late Jesse Helms type ad, in which it is implied that if a black man has power, no white will be able to get a job.
At the end of the day Obama is unlikely to be any more or less moral than any other president. I like him because, unlike many in the US, I like to have leaders who are intelligent and can think and articulate their own thoughts so the rest of the world does not think we are all uneducated bigoted red necks who run to our churches at the first sign of trouble, or at least to our guns.
"She's a scientist and a lesbian. She's not going to let it slide." Orphan Black
Perhaps you want to actually read what the man has to say about it:
I want to take this opportunity to speak directly to those of you who oppose my decision to support the FISA compromise.
This was not an easy call for me. I know that the FISA bill that passed the House is far from perfect. I wouldn't have drafted the legislation like this, and it does not resolve all of the concerns that we have about President Bush's abuse of executive power. It grants retroactive immunity to telecommunications companies that may have violated the law by cooperating with the Bush Administration's program of warrantless wiretapping. This potentially weakens the deterrent effect of the law and removes an important tool for the American people to demand accountability for past abuses. That's why I support striking Title II from the bill, and will work with Chris Dodd, Jeff Bingaman and others in an effort to remove this provision in the Senate.
But I also believe that the compromise bill is far better than the Protect America Act that I voted against last year. The exclusivity provision makes it clear to any President or telecommunications company that no law supersedes the authority of the FISA court. In a dangerous world, government must have the authority to collect the intelligence we need to protect the American people. But in a free society, that authority cannot be unlimited. As I've said many times, an independent monitor must watch the watchers to prevent abuses and to protect the civil liberties of the American people. This compromise law assures that the FISA court has that responsibility
The Inspectors General report also provides a real mechanism for accountability and should not be discounted. It will allow a close look at past misconduct without hurdles that would exist in federal court because of classification issues. The (PDF)recent investigation uncovering the illegal politicization of Justice Department hiring sets a strong example of the accountability that can come from a tough and thorough IG report.
The ability to monitor and track individuals who want to attack the United States is a vital counter-terrorism tool, and I'm persuaded that it is necessary to keep the American people safe -- particularly since certain electronic surveillance orders will begin to expire later this summer. Given the choice between voting for an improved yet imperfect bill, and losing important surveillance tools, I've chosen to support the current compromise. I do so with the firm intention -- once Iâ(TM)m sworn in as President -- to have my Attorney General conduct a comprehensive review of all our surveillance programs, and to make further recommendations on any steps needed to preserve civil liberties and to prevent executive branch abuse in the future.
Now, I understand why some of you feel differently about the current bill, and I'm happy to take my lumps on this side and elsewhere. For the truth is that your organizing, your activism and your passion is an important reason why this bill is better than previous versions. No tool has been more important in focusing peoples' attention on the abuses of executive power in this Administration than the active and sustained engagement of American citizens. That holds true -- not just on wiretapping, but on a range of issues where Washington has let the American people down.
I learned long ago, when working as an organizer on the South Side of Chicago, that when citizens join their voices together, they can hold their leaders accountable. I'm not exempt from that. I'm certainly not perfect, and expect to be held accountable too. I cannot promise to agree with you on every issue. But I do promise to listen to your concerns, take them seriously, and seek to earn your ongoing support to change the country. That is why we have built the largest grassroots campaign in the history of presidential politics,
What would have been the point of suing the telecom companies?
The point was to find out exactly what the hell happened through the discovery process. This wasn't some thinly veiled attempt to get money out of Verizon and AT&T. This was an attempt to find out what the extent of this illegal wiretapping program was and to hold those who violated the law (within the administration and within Verizon/AT&T) accountable.
The lawyers would have made most of the money anyway
Yes, those money-grubbing lawyers at the EFF and ACLU only took this on so they could make legal fees....
What if it comes out the "wrong" way? What if the courts decide the President has that authority?
Yes, if only Dred Scott had been content to remain a slave and hadn't sued to change it... then we wouldn't have had the horrible Dred Scott decision on the books.
I want peace on earth and goodwill toward man.
We are the United States Government! We don't do that sort of thing.
There are some admirable politicians out there. The fact that you are unwilling to look at their individual behavior, and simply tar them all with the same brush, marks you as intellectually lazy and fundamentally dishonest.
- None can love freedom heartily, but good men; the rest love not freedom, but license. -- John Milton
Senator Obama:
When I first heard you speak, I was moved, literally. Very few people who speak give me chills, and you were one of them. Later, I was excited to attend your speech at Joe Luis Arena when you came to Detroit--not only excited to hear you speak in person, but excited to be a part of something big and meaningful. Though I am still young and have only been following politics for the past eight awful years, I felt honored to be able to finally support a politician who seemed different from any other.
I'm now several months removed from the first time I heard you speak and a few weeks past the night I attended your speech in Detroit. I'm writing to you five days after Independence Day, and only a few hours after you voted for the FISA Amendment Act. Simply put, I feel cheated, and I know I'm only one of tens of thousands of supporters who feel the same way. It's one thing for the majority of the Senate to pass this legislation, it's another for someone who you thought was different to vote for it. That's the biggest slap in the face.
In light of your vote, I'm no longer excited about your stake for presidency. I thought that we might be on a path to something new, something better. But your vote tells a different story, and that's not change that I can believe in. It's simply more of the same.
Thank you for your time.
Vote against the bill, denying law enforcements precious tools (He didn't)
Why not vote against it?
Why not punish the people who draft bills that are too broad in scope or have insane riders on them and let them know that if they want laws passed they should learn to be concise? Or how about actually standing up for their constituents?
What the hell is wrong with the government working for the people it's supposed to represent for a freaking change?
Obama has clearly stated he is against granting the telecoms immunity; there's simply nothing yuo can do when OTHER blue dog democrats with cushy incumbent seats wantto retain their fat lobbyist paychecks and vote with their wallets.
WRONG. Yes there is. How about voting your conscience rather than rolling over and taking it up the tailpipe? This is supposed to be a leadership value?
Please don't think I'm a Republican when I type this, but if this is Obama's idea of "Change" - well, it looks like the same old same old to me.
Weaselmancer
rediculous.
Kind of like voting for a war ... and then opposing it.
The time for thoughtful consideration is BEFORE the damage is done.
Words are cheap.
He voted FOR the bill. Nevermind he said that he would never vote for a bill that granted immunity. Nevermind that this bill is the last chance at exposing Bush's misdoings regarding the wiretapping scandal. The key is that it undermines individual protections; and he voted for it in favor of executive branch power.
He did NOT need to vote for the bill. The idea that law enforcement is denied 'precious' tools has been debunked time and again. All it denies is oversight - which is a terrible, terrible idea. The original FISA bill allowed for wiretaps with warrants, warrants that are easy to get, even after the fact. Instead, he has opted for blind trust in the executive branch.
There is always something you can do; he didn't need to vote for the bill. It would have been an easy thing to do - the bill still would have gone through. Make no bones about it; he's shifting to the middle in hopes of picking up swing voters who swallow the purple punch and believe the current Administration's rhetoric about how this is 'vital' to national security, or we're all DOOMED. It's overblown propaganda, and people need to recognize that.
Finally, let me note that he's not 'biding his time'. There is nothing he can do now; the bill has to be repealed by Congress or the Supreme Court. It's not like once he's President he can wave a magic wand and make the bad thing go away. More to the point, even if he could, voting for the bill does nothing to increase his ability to do so. It's entirely gutless move.
[Ego]out
Obama didn't cave on FISA. He just looked at the core issues.
Take a look at http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20051220-5808.html
If we assume that article has correctly identified what was happening, the core issue becomes how to get massive, automated wiretapping under judicial control. The article states that there aren't enough judges to process all the warrants needed under the old FISA law using the new technology. So instead of fixing the law, the administration ignored it. Bush and Cheney should be impeached over this, but that isn't going to happen.
A major purpose of the telecom lawsuits was to get discovery going and find out what was happening. The investigation ordered by the new law is also supposed to do that. However, if the article is right we know what was happening. Enough was said publicly about a variety of matters for the author of the article to figure out the underlying technology.
Let's give Obama credit for focusing on the core issues and working to get them fixed. If he gave on the immunity sideshow, that's just part of the imperfection that he said was there in the compromise.
There's only one party...The RepublicCrats, They pretend to disagree on minor distractions, but nobody wants real change. After all, a politicians first job is to get reelected. The current system put them in power, and they are not about to change it.
I used to say "If you want real change, vote for Chuck Baldwin with the Constitution party." Then the black box voting machines stopped counting our votes.
Now I say "If you want real change, learn to shoot."
Andy
Why not vote against it?
Because the bill passed, while not a good bill, is STILL better than the present law. Obama, and others, tried to strip the immunity. It didn't work. So given the choice between maintaining the status quo (worse) or accepting that the telecom companies have bought out a filibuster-proof majority in the Senate, Obama voted for the bill so AT LEAST executive power is restrained a bit more.
Obama chose 'something' over 'nothing'.
The immunity is also not absolute, and if/when Obama is President, hopefully the issue can be revisited when a Bush veto doesn't have to be overcome (which is a mere 6 months from now).
paintball
What is wrong with FISA that the current bill fixes?
This bill changes nothing except now what the Bush administration did illegally, it can now do legally. And the fact that they were doing it illegally before is also, actually, legal.
The only thing this does is confirm that the CIA/NSA can do whatever they want regardless of the law and if they get caught, Congress will bail them out.
It breaks my pluginses, my precious!
This is just ONE of MANY examples proving that Obama is a total stuffed shirt who only says the right things, and almost never does them.
If he was a REAL candidate of hope and change, who actually gave even a passing nod to the constitution, or even any of the tenets set forth by Franklin, Jefferson, and the other geniuses who set up our system, he would not be a "realistic" candidate, and he certainly wouldn't get so much air time on corporate TV.
All you Obama fans had a real guy representing the stuff you really wanted. His name was Kucinich, and his wife is totally hot.
Oh, and he's the one in congress delivering impeachment papers day after day, too.....
But what he doesn't have is CNN, FOX, ABC, NBC, CBS, MSN, and Rolling Stone completely sucking his cock. There's a reason for that, too. He's the real deal, unlike stuffed shirt Obama, who talks the talk and then sells the constitution out for corporate and political power every time. Just like the FISA thing.
You people claiming it's a simple mistake that he will work to correct are idiots. The FISA thing is an OBVIOUS choice, actually talked about DIRECTLY in the fourth amendment.
You people claiming Republican's are far worse are also idiots. They are exactly the same. They just don't even SAY the right things. Well, they say the right things for old people and people who talk to invisible men in the sky, but then they vote pro corporate and pro fascist just like the Democrats. There is NO difference. The party lines are both the same: The bottom line for Viacomm, AOL/Time Warner, Bertelsmann, News Corp, and Disney.
I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
Interestingly enough while semi-randomly browsing YouTube I found this video of Dennis Kucinich talking about how the congress is trying to push that FISA thing and how they went as far as having a secret congress meeting (the 6th in history) dedicated to the topic.
Seems like unlike what I first thought that stakes are much higher than what I suspected would be an issue only the Slashdot crowd would care about. I hope this video sheds some light on the context of this news article, even though the video isn't news.
You just got troll'd!
I have never admired a politician in my life (get a life !). I have admired statesmen, but they then need to be dead 50 years or more.
I was going to vote for Obama for President this fall. Politically, I am an independent who has voted Republican a few times and Democrat fewer times. Mostly, I stay home (voting third party is meaningless in the system we have). I also think that we need to start repairing the Constitutional enforcement ASAP. Enough damage has been done over the past 40 years (when was the last time Congress declared war ?).
Here he comes along, this fellow trained in constitutional law, and I say, ok, maybe I will give him a chance. Voted for him in the New Hampshire primary. Was happy when he finally put the Clinton machine to bed and started the campaign. I do not buy for a moment that he has been tacking to the center. He has long been a supporter of faith based initiative (his career as a community organizer was nothing but a faith based initiative). I have concerns about separation of religion and state, but with sensible safeguards like hiring constraints etc., those issues can be dealt with. His position on guns has changed but it does not matter either way for me. The second amendment is safe and since I do not own a handgun, I admit I do not follow this issue very closely.
However, the fourth amendment is perhaps the second most amendment (after the first amendment) in our country. It (used to) places restrictions on unreasonable search and seizure by the government. It has become more and more toothless and yesterday, it was effectively carved out of the constitution by legislators who had no legal right to do so (changing the constitution in such fundamental ways requires a constitutional amendment - but who has the time these days for the people to actually express their opinion - like Gonzalez is supposed to have said about something related, this is so "quaint"). In the modern world (just look at the farce playing out in Europe with the countries bold enough to reject a constitution disguised as a treaty), laws do not matter as much. They can always be incrementally extinguished.
Who is responsible for all of this ? WE ARE. Why ? Let me know how many Senators (and House members) who voted to gut our Constitution again get re-elected in fall.
As to Obama, well, he just lost my vote yesterday. It does not matter whether he collects enough focus group flack to apologize for it at some point in time or says his vote was wrong, I am done with him. I know his vote would not have made that much of a difference (though the moral statement would have been massive), but he had the opportunity to act on his conscience yesterday. He did not. I will not be doing the same in November. My ballot on the question of the President, will be blank. Down ticket, it will depend on what my representatives did in Congress.
And Mr. Barack Constitutional Law Obama, it does not appear that you were paying attention in class. Grant of retroactive immunity is unconstitutional in itself :
Article I section 9: "No bill of attainder or ex post facto Law shall be passed". It just remains to be seen whether the Supreme Court will educate the Congress on the matter. Given recent history, I am not overly optimistic.
Unless you are comparing it to the statutes of the "Protect America Act" this law is significantly worse, and does nothing to protect our safety. But it is worse than the PAA, because the statutes of that law expire, which puts us back to the fine FISA act which was passed in 1975. There is nothing that this new law adds to the '75 FISA act which protects our safety. What it does is allows the Executive Branch full power to break the law as it sees fit, with the only oversight coming from the Executive Branch, this law would make the Watergate affair legal.
I don't want McCain to win, but at the same time, someone has to have some principles somewhere along the line and I'm not giving up mine. I'm standing up for myself and not supporting Obama any longer.
I don't know about anyone else, but this sounds just as narrow-minded as any other single-issue voter. In a democracy, you will not always get everything you want. You need to weigh what's important, and what's possible, and try to get the best candidate you can. Sure, a multi-party system would help, but beyond that you sound no different than someone voting entirely on the issue of abortion, gay rights, or gun rights.
Sure, if you find FISA to be -the- issue, and it outweighs all other issues (environment, Iraq, foreign policy, etc), then go right ahead and throw your support elsewhere. Or if you think that his stance on FISA shows an endemic problem in his character, then go right ahead.
I think this is crap, too. And I'm really upset (in general, at first glance. I haven't read enough about it to have a full opinion) that Obama voted this way. But there other important aspects of his platform that I -do- agree with, and I won't let this one reasonably large flaw change that.
There's a THREE DAY grace period between when the spies can start spying, and they have to get their spying rubber-stamped by a Judge.
So, there is NO LAW ENFORCEMENT BENEFIT to this bill. It is purely there to provide cover for CRIMINALS.
Remember that: Anyone who voted for this bill is SOFT ON CRIME and HATES THE AMERICAN VALUES OF FREEDOM AND LIBERTY, EQUAL PROTECTION UNDER THE LAW, AND DUE PROCESS OF THE LAW.
Technology -- No Place For Wimps! Grateful Dead and Jerry Garcia Chatroom -- http://www.wemissjerry.org
Oh, what are his true colors? I was under the impression he was an African American.
Thank God for evolution.
I thought he was black...
I like to place meaningful quotes in my sig, so people will know that I know what meaningful quotes are.
Let's be clear about this. The Immunity was added this way because the administration says that while the Law Enforcement Tools were important, the immunity was more important. They were willing to turn down the law enforcement tools, to get the immunity.
I agree - it *is* more important to deny the principle that when the President orders you to break the law, you are allowed to break the law, than it is to stop another terrorist attack.
Let's make this clear - I lost friends in the Pentagon *and* the World Trade Center, and I would *rather* get hit by Al-Qaeda, *again*, than to have established that the President can order you to break the law.
Frankly, I consider this immunity an another in a series of absolute wrongs foisted on our country by cowards and traitors.
Pug
An Invisible Entity of Vast Power whose existence must be taken on faith alone: Liberal Media
Obama's just another stinking politician. There was never any reason to expect otherwise. He's not just some guy from out of left field who came along with a happy message and got lucky. To become the DNC's anointed one, he had to make deals and secret promises and had to receive the blessings of the moneyed interests that have been in control for many decades. He's as much an insider as any other politrickster at this point.
Warning: This signature may offend some viewers.
Welcome to the world of politics. As much as I like Obama, one must never forget he is still a politician.
It just took the flag pin and now this for more people to get it. Unlike Hillary, Barack waited until after the primaries to start making the huge mistakes.
The immunity only covers CIVIL liability, criminal liability is still on the table, but with the 'leaders' we have, I cant see anyone bringing criminal charges against the TELCO and Bush et al unless the next president makes it an issue. (which they should)
So chin up, Obama isn't perfect, but aside from a revolution to replace the government, he will be better than what we could get with McCain or what we have now with the moron from Connecticut via Texass.
We didn't lose our rights overnight, and it will take time and effort to regain them. That is if people start worrying more about the future of America and less about gas prices, American Idol, and gay marriage.