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The Pirate Bay's Plans To Encrypt the 'Net

Keeper Of Keys writes "According to newteevee.com, The Pirate Bay, those fun- and freedom-loving Swedes, have embarked on a project to encrypt all internet traffic, probably by means of an OS-level wrapper around all network connections, which would fall back to an unencrypted connection when the other end is not similarly equipped. The move has been prompted by a recent change in Swedish law, allowing the authorities to snoop on network traffic. This will be a boon to filesharers and anyone else concerned about authorities and trade groups' recent moves towards 'policing' network traffic at the ISP level."

297 comments

  1. But all decent pirating services... by joleran · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Should already be encrypted. If they weren't, they were being pretty careless.

    1. Re:But all decent pirating services... by wstfgl · · Score: 3, Interesting
      Looks like they thought of that... FTFA:

      NewTeeVee alumn Jackson West pointed out back in March that long-planned projects like The Video Bay, the music site PlayBle and a new and secure P2P protocol have yet to be launched

      Admittedly "secure internet" would be more useful to file sharers than "secure P2P" (better plausible deniability); but if they've failed to even do the latter so far, I wouldn't hold out too much hope...

    2. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Lally+Singh · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, but then you can tell pretty closely what they are. Port number & encrypted protocol are pretty indicative.

      Instead, encrypting the majority of traffic would make the sniffing capability moot.

      But frankly, I'd rather see them use Tor, maybe with some optimizations for latency-critical operations.

      --
      Care about electronic freedom? Consider donating to the EFF!
    3. Re:But all decent pirating services... by CrazedWalrus · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I don't know how this would work specifically (didn't bother to RTFA), but it seems to me that the current model of connecting to application ports is broken from a privacy perspective.

      The solution is a hopefully cheaper version of setting up a vpn tunnel and using THAT to connect to the application port. That way all traffic appears to be going to the same port, regardless of service. Because it's encrypted, no DPI can be applied.

      Of course, I could just go to that site's web site and see what they advertise, assuming that most people are going there for that purpose. If I'm sniffing the user's connection at their ISP, I could also see if they're connecting to 10-20 other user sites simultaneously, which would look a lot like bittorrent.

      The advantage to using end-to-end encryption by default would be plausible deniability. If the site carries both legal and illegal content, then it would be difficult to prove that the user was downloading one or the other by simply inspecting their traffic patterns. Because encryption is used by default, the argument of "Why encrypt if you have nothing to hide" goes out the window.

      I hope this made sense. I'm still waiting for the coffee to perk. :-)

    4. Re:But all decent pirating services... by v1 · · Score: 4, Informative

      most BT servers run their web server on port 80, and they always encourage users to change the default BT port to something else. As long as you offer legitimate torrents, and run https encrypted to prevent people from seeing what torrents you download, then all you know is they are running BT on a torrent on the server. If you are using encrypted BT, they can't see what it is you're downloading when you start up the torrent. Beyond knowing they're running BT, (which is still legal, for now) there's nothing more you have on them.

      --
      I work for the Department of Redundancy Department.
    5. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Dracker · · Score: 3, Insightful

      But the Pirate Bay folks are .. well .. pirates, and Tor frowns upon using high amounts of p2p bandwidth over Tor. If The Pirate Bay is going to endorse a technology, it needs to help them pirate. Freenet or I2P look like better codebases. It all comes down to how secure and convenient they want their protocol to be.

    6. Re:But all decent pirating services... by CastrTroy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I think something like Tor would be useful also. Because even if your communications are encrypted, they can tell a lot about you just by the people you are communicating with, even if they don't know what you are saying. Also, things like bittorrent encryption are only good for getting past your ISPs traffic handling services, and do nothing to disguise your identity from other people connected to the same swarm. Another possibility, since Tor is so horribly slow, would be to have encrypted communication of non-sense information between you and a bunch of random parties. That way they wouldn't be able to tell who you were really communicating with, and who you were just sending random garbage to.

      --

      Anthropic principle: We see the universe the way it is because if it were different we would not be here to see it.
    7. Re:But all decent pirating services... by aliquis · · Score: 1

      On the other hand there haven't been much reason to care since no one have been allowed to snoop at your traffic or get your contact information from your isp earlier.

    8. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Honestly, the best possible route is not this hack upon TCP or UDP (did you read the part about how it opens and closes connections while doing the handshake?), but rather an opt-in private network like anonet.

    9. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Craig+Ringer · · Score: 4, Interesting

      The FreeS/WAN guys were working on transparent IPSec negotiation for just this reason. It prevents many types of traffic analysis, spoofing, packet injection, etc just as you want.

      They've given up because nobody cared :S

    10. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Hatta · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Tor and encryption serve orthogonal purposes. Encryption hides what you're sending, tor hides who you're sending it to.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    11. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      But frankly, I'd rather see them use Tor, maybe with some optimizations for latency-critical operations.

      Sigh^2. Tor provides anonymity, not confidentiality. It's also massive waste of bandwidth and other resources.

    12. Re:But all decent pirating services... by complete+loony · · Score: 3, Insightful

      ... until you join the swarm yourself, get a list of peers from the tracker, and connect to them directly to verify that they are uploading your copyrighted content. It works for the RIAA.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    13. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Jeremiah+Cornelius · · Score: 1

      I love contacting my encrypted DNS server, that no one can find!

      --
      "Flyin' in just a sweet place,
      Never been known to fail..."
    14. Re:But all decent pirating services... by xalorous · · Score: 5, Interesting

      TOR is not robust enough to handle P2P traffic. PLUS IT DOES NOT HIDE THE DATA YOU ARE TRANSFERRING. This plan by TPB is designed to encrypt the traffic. A separate TOR-like plan would be required to anonymize source/destination IP's. Or a third option that does both.

      TOR was designed to help people remain anonymous and communicate safely on the web. Misusing it for illegal purposes will cause TOR to become unavailable for its original purpose, which will be sad.

      --
      TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
    15. Re:But all decent pirating services... by MikeBabcock · · Score: 0

      Its pretty sad really, I was running it from the start -- still use it for VPNs to clients and between client sites actually.

      See my other post too.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    16. Re:But all decent pirating services... by kernelphr34k · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry to break it to ya, but TOR is broken in many ways. To use TOR with P2P is _not_going_be_ the best solution anyways as their network is not really designed for P2P traffic, but more web based traffic.

      I'm good friends with one of the JanusVM developers and I can only say that there is still many 'open' vulnerabilities with TOR. Defcon 15 we had lots of fun with TOR, Defcon 16 will be another fun year! A better solution would be to use a total transparent layer of security and privacy solution; JanusVM(http://www.janusvm.com).

      This is def something the pirate bays guys should pursue, and hopefully get finished. I'll be paying closer attention to their project.

    17. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Wow, I remember when 2.0 came out with OE, but never knew development stopped (or that their patrons withdrew funding).

      It seems corporate users didn't want unneeded features turned on (OE), and home users had difficulties using it; both paths of adoption had challenges. The primary problem was that they needed mass adoption to make OE useful for users. Looking at the amount of money Microsoft or Apple spends to promote mass adoption of a product, it's clear that the patrons of FreeS/WAN should have given OE a few years to grow.

    18. Re:But all decent pirating services... by BlackCobra43 · · Score: 1

      Which is patently illegal and getting laughed out of court.

      What's next, sending fraudulent checks in the mail to everyone in a neighbourhood to see if someone'll cash 'em in?

      --
      I never spellcheck and I freely admit it. Save your karma for more worthwhile "lol erorrs" replies
    19. Re:But all decent pirating services... by zix619 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I believe they called it Opportunistic Encryption. And, actually it died because of the lack of interest from the users (see http://www.freeswan.org/ending_letter.html). But, perhaps now things begin to change with the users caring more about their privacy and a better knowledge of security techniques in general public. I believe IPETEE has the advantage of not relying on DNS fields to publish your key,

    20. Re:But all decent pirating services... by shmlco · · Score: 1, Troll

      You can encrypt anything you want, but in the case of encrypting P2P traffic there's a simple solution: charge per use.

      Encrypted or not, an effective P2P torrent system MUST transmit and receive gigabytes worth of data. Encrypted or not, it HAS to move a lot of bytes. It's simply the nature of the beast.

      So let ISPs charge for upstream traffic on a per kilo/mega/gigabyte basis, and the whole thing falls apart. More and more users leach instead of seed. And the number of seeds decrease as no one wants to pay the piper for the OTHER person's free copy of Iron Man.

      Besides, the government can simply declare the use of encryption for illegitimate traffic illegal in and as of itself. Start broadcasting gigabytes of encrypted data to a myriad of sources (another P2P trait), and HS starts knocking on the door. Or, for that matter, just ban non-commercial use where the endpoint isn't using a registered certificate.

      You KNOW the government isn't going to jut sit still and what gigabytes of encrypted traffic flow by. Think of the children...

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    21. Re:But all decent pirating services... by speculatrix · · Score: 1

      I can see that cryptography + steganography will become a significant growth industry. Sure, it looks like you're trading innocent home movies that don't violate copyright, but hidden inside apparently as noise will be the black-market stuff.

    22. Re:But all decent pirating services... by PigleT · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That way all traffic appears to be going to the same port, regardless of service. Because it's encrypted, no DPI can be applied.

      Maybe not but your local friendly government of choice could legislate something like the RIP Act and demand keys to the traffic on that one port.

      A sensible solution would be to promote the spread of IPv6 which I gather has scope for IPSEC built into the specs.

      --
      ~Tim
      --
      .|` Clouds cross the black moonlight,
      Rushing on down to the circle of the turn
    23. Re:But all decent pirating services... by nurb432 · · Score: 1

      Except they really aren't pirating anything.

      But back on topic, i agree with them in that *everything* should be encrypted. It really isn't anyones business, even if all im doing is getting a message from the wife to pick up milk on the way home.

      If I'm under court blessed investigation for a crime, there are other avenues to do the proper research. Or have we *all* become suspects and everyone is under investigation now?

      --
      ---- Booth was a patriot ----
    24. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      What will prevent man-in-the-middle attacks? If you trust TPB to act as a CA/key broker, What's to stop BIG BROTHER from setting up/taking over a Pirate Bay site?

      We can't even get email encryption off the ground for the common user, there is no way this will fly either.

    25. Re:But all decent pirating services... by assassinator42 · · Score: 1

      No, the RIAA (actually the companies they pay to do their enforcement) don't connect to peers directly to verify they're actually sending infringing content. They just retrieve the list of peers and send DMCA to all of them. Read the paper, there was an article here on it a while back.

    26. Re:But all decent pirating services... by greish · · Score: 1

      Tor doesnt like bittorrent A throttler .... running scared

    27. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Bourbonium · · Score: 1

      It's a lot like the "old days" of PGP. When Phil Zimmerman was facing a prison sentence for releasing PGP freely, he said simply that regular unencrypted email is like sending everything on postcards through snailmail. The mailman, and anyone else, could read whatever you'd written. If you want your private correspondence to remain private, you seal it in an envelope. If you seal everything you mail in an envelope, all your correspondence is secure. He advised PGP users to simply encrypt everything, regardless of its sensitivity, so your electronic mail would be just as secure and safe as sending paper mail in a sealed envelope through the U.S. Postal Service. Just as it is a felony to open any mail not addressed to you, it should be against the law to crack the encryption of an electronic message that is not directly addressed to the recipient. Just as, until earlier this week, it used to be against the law to listen in on the private telephone conversations of American citizens who are not under suspicion of criminal acts without a warrant to justify the spying.

    28. Re:But all decent pirating services... by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1
      Perhaps I'm wrong, but it doesn't look like it's Open Source. If it isn't, it's insecure and unusable.

      (Any software is insecure that doesn't allow code auditing and being built from the source code by anyone who likes to. The whole package, including all libraries and subcomponents, must be Open Source.)

    29. Re:But all decent pirating services... by zix619 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      http://www.tfr.org/wiki/index.php?title=Technical_Proposal_(IPETEE) explains the protocol. Mainly, it does Diffie-Hellman to establish a session key and then encrypts everything. If the peer doesn't accept DH then it switches back to clear text. Simlpe but doesn't provide any peer authentication.

    30. Re:But all decent pirating services... by vsync64 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Clearly the answer is to set up a honeypot. Create a torrent with a plausible filesize and a tempting filename, like a popular movie or whatever. Then make a giant and entirely false list of peers, preferably including IP addresses from government, educational institutions, and lawyers' home computers. Let the *AAs do their lazy work and send notices to everyone. Sit back and laugh at the blowback to them for their false complaint.

      --
      TO BUY A NEW CAR WOULD MAKE YOU SEXUALLY ATTRACTIVE.
    31. Re:But all decent pirating services... by shmlco · · Score: 1

      Padding the data just means you're paying to send even more bytes....

      --
      Any sect, cult, or religion will legislate its creed into law if it acquires the political power to do so.
    32. Re:But all decent pirating services... by JoelKatz · · Score: 1

      It also doesn't provide any sane way to determine whether or not a peer supports it. It also doesn't provide any way to hide the destination port.

      It's going to be really hard to push through a general solution to this problem. Having people propose partial solutions doesn't help. It will just make the good suggestions get lost in the noise.

    33. Re:But all decent pirating services... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      TOR was designed to help people remain anonymous and communicate safely on the web. Misusing it for illegal purposes will cause TOR to become unavailable for its original purpose, which will be sad.

      I'd be fairly willing to bet a large amount of that "communication" on TOR *is* illegal, hence the reason for using TOR.

    34. Re:But all decent pirating services... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1
      So let ISPs charge for upstream traffic on a per kilo/mega/gigabyte basis, and the whole thing falls apart.

      "Let" them? There's nothing stopping them from doing so. The market simply doesn't want it

    35. Re:But all decent pirating services... by owndao · · Score: 1

      "But frankly, I'd rather see them use Tor [eff.org], maybe with some optimizations for latency-critical operations."
      I'll have to take some time and look at Tor. Frankly, I was surprised when I first learned (many years ago) that basically everything on the internet is sent in the clear. I would have thought that the first thing after the net left the world of academia that there would have been an outcry from businesses, etc. for a secure point-point connection with untraceable anonymity.
      As things stand someone or a group of interested parties could sit and monitor traffic from business rivals getting the lowdown on who is talking with who and getting full transcripts of emails, etc. I would think the SEC would be interested, at a minimum.
      I doubt that VPNs are set up on such a dynamic basis in business but then again knowing the fact that they are being created in specific instances would be good clues that "something important is going on between these two companies."
      This is something that the government and especially the military *must* have already addressed. Who is watching our national security communications and why has it not resulted in a major disaster or two due to leakage? Maybe it has already?
      I think just taking a look at what the military does inside and outside of the battle zone should give some ideas that might be adoptable for private use. Maybe I am just ignorant here and our national security plans are done with the same carelessness as this administration seems to handle its emails.
      I, personally, would like to have all of my communications protected from the time they leave the box until they arrive on the other. This would happen without *anyone* knowing that information was exchanged and certainly not knowing the content type either.

      --
      Be as you would have the world become.
    36. Re:But all decent pirating services... by ciderVisor · · Score: 1

      TAANSTAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!

      If I'm going to live by the acronym TAANSTAFL, it'd be nice to know what it meant in the first place.

      --
      Squirrel!
    37. Re:But all decent pirating services... by aliquis · · Score: 1

      ISPs already charge for bandwidth, but it don't go to the copyright holders, and if it did how would you distribute it? 1 DVD =4.5GB, 1000 ebooks = 1 GB?

      And why should I pay the music and movie industry when I download a new set of Solaris DVDs?

      To pay for upstream is even more retarded, so if I run my own webserver or upload my video clips of my kid, workout, cat, or have a huge photo album I should pay to the media industry?

      And don't try to figure out what is P2P traffic because that will always fail as well, people will just change method. What about a VPN with Samba shares of the files with all the people I know?

      "illegitimate traffic", good luck with that.

      Sure they can make encryption illegal, good luck with defending that law, I'd still use it just to refuse the fucktards. If there came a law which made encryption illegal I would the same day start to send ALL my e-mails encrypted and so on.

      Non-comercial use of what? Encryption? We are talking about nerds here. Virus, botnets, hacks, cracked software, ... are already illegal, yeah, that have stopped much? People won't give a shit about their laws, laws which have no support from the people suck. We live in a democracy and shouldn't have to live with shit like that, save it for police states and dictatorships.

      Doesn't matter what the government will or not, we will use it anyway, I'd like to see the swedish government jail 200.000 people because they use encrypted P2P. Good luck with that!

    38. Re:But all decent pirating services... by xalorous · · Score: 1

      TANSTAAFL. Google that. Sorry for the misspelling.

      --
      TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
    39. Re:But all decent pirating services... by xalorous · · Score: 1

      http://www.torproject.org/overview.html.en

      I appreciate the original, stated uses. TOR is for privacy.

      Personally, I think all routers should be converted to operate the same way TOR does.

      --
      TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
    40. Re:But all decent pirating services... by drsmithy · · Score: 1

      I appreciate the original, stated uses. TOR is for privacy.

      That doesn't make it legal. "Dissidents" in China passing anti-government communications, for example.

    41. Re:But all decent pirating services... by xalorous · · Score: 1

      You have a point. But I guess that I find bittorrent piracy less morally appealing than helping people who are oppressed or in danger if their identity/location is discovered. A point could be made that media piracy is civil disobedience; and I accept that the issues brought to light by the "RIAA/MPAA vs their customers" conflict would not be as public without that civil disobedience. I just think that TOR should be reserved for the low bandwidth purposes it was designed for, in order to protect the abused and oppressed as it was designed to do.

      --
      TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
  2. SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    What more do we need?

    1. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by JPribe · · Score: 5, Insightful

      More people running TOR servers...

      --

      Why go fast when you can go anywhere? O|||||||O
    2. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      and private trackers are going to love that..

      I know plenty that already block users through using tor..

    3. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by WingedHorse · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Won't work like that, I'm affraid.

      When Finland started "Filtering the internet to protect the children" and among other sites filtered a website that criticized quality of the work that police was doing with the internet censoring it got difficult for me to get to that site by using TOR. Why? Because with so many tor servers in Finland it often took several extra reloads to get a server outside the borders of the censorship.

      The last thing I want to do now is add more anonymous and uncontrolled hops, which could be to servers in countries that watch the traffic too closely or even ran by such governments. Every hop is an extra chance to MitM attack. Unless I first aquire the Public Key directly in which case anyone monitoring already knows what site I'll access to and makes TOR needless.

      Or is there something I have missed?

      --
      Fine print: I work in internet advertising.
    4. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Shadow-isoHunt · · Score: 4, Interesting

      You cannot trust the exit node in tor, it's still plain text most of the time and you're vulnerable to MITM attacks. If you look at your traffic on tor you'll find lots of sneaky shit going on like ad replacement, swapped out cookies, and there's certainly more curious people out their watching the node traffic out of curiosity with wireshark/driftnet/snort than just me. Mind you I behave and I'm simply curious, where as most of the nodes out there will attempt to profit in some way from your ignorance that gets perpetuated repeatedly throughout the internet.

      Not to be a dick, just sayin'.

      --
      www.isoHunt.com
    5. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 2, Informative
      Assuming that the encryption cannot be broken, what difference does it make when the traffic goes over an additional node run by a malicious attacker? What matters is the first node and the exit node, all other traffic is encrypted and anonymized. AFAIK, the more hops, the better, except that traffic becomes slower. Or am I missing something?

      There are other vulnerabilities to TOR's anonymity based on traffic analysis, and of course the most widespread problem is that users don't anonymize their applications or erroneously assume that the exit node is not malicious.

      he last thing I want to do now is add more anonymous and uncontrolled hops, which could be to servers in countries that watch the traffic too closely or even ran by such governments. Every hop is an extra chance to MitM attack.

      Or is there something I have missed?

    6. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by jetxee · · Score: 2, Interesting

      SSL over Tor with Pivroxy What more do we need?

      More exit nodes in the Tor network controlled by the governments and malicious parties (directly or indirectly with hidden remote administration tools). And then all we, Tor users, are screwed. The last hop is unencrypted and usually contains some information which helps to identify the user.

    7. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by somersault · · Score: 1

      Assuming that the encryption cannot be broken [...] Or am I missing something?

      Yes.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    8. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Encryption like SSL protects you from the types of actions you described.

    9. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by bconway · · Score: 1

      Did you read the parent post? Communication from the exit node to the end point remains unencrypted, and exit nodes can't be trusted. SSL between nodes doesn't help, you aren't magically connecting to an unencrypted service with SSL.

      --
      Interested in open source engine management for your Subaru?
    10. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It isn't SSL between nodes. It is SSL between you and your destination. SSL is an application layer protocol so it does not affect IP traffic (the message is encrypted, not the IP headers). If you are worried about the exit node you can access sites on the onion ring itself and bypass that problem. And if you want to access a site off of the onion ring, with SSL you are no worse than any other method. If the onion network grows as large as the P2P networks (which is a logical extension), then the governments/corporations won't be able to keep up tapping exit nodes.

    11. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 1
      As I'm generally interested in that, would you mind telling me what?

      Exactly what kind of MitM attack on a TOR network based on controlling an intermediate node did you have in mind?

      Or am I missing something?

      Yes.

    12. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by somersault · · Score: 1

      I haven't read about TOR for a while, and yes doing a bruteforce MitM attack would be impractical with current technology, but all encryption can be broken, that's all I was implying :p

      --
      which is totally what she said
    13. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by chihowa · · Score: 1
      With onion routing, the only opportunity for a man-in-the-middle attack occurs at the last hop (assuming a single entity doesn't control all of the nodes that you are passing through). Intermediate nodes can not see the innermost "envelope" and so can't read/modify it.

      Adding more intermediate nodes lessens the chance that all nodes are operated by the same party and so decreases the chance of an man-in-the-middle attack by an intermediate node. It makes the whole transaction slower though and uses more resources of the Tor network.

      But Tor isn't designed to insure the identity of the communicating parties. You should use PKI or some other method if you need to insure that your transmissions aren't being intercepted/modified at the last hop.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    14. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Five hops is as dangerous as one hop because only the exit node that is the vulnerable to MitM (because of the designed perfect forward secrecy); more hops is usually better. There are timing attacks that involve the use of middle routers, but unless the entry guard and exit node are also watched, the identity is still protected.

      SSL increases security because you have imperfect privacy from Tor and imperfect trust from SSL--protection from MitM from SSL. In the case of MithM and SSL, the usual danger exists: self-signed certificates are prone to MitM attacks, so verify them, or let trusted CA's verify them by only using certificates signed by them (which still leaves the potential for someone magically breaking the cryptography).

      To aid profile protection in cases where you fear a party is running your entry and exit nodes, specify entry guards to servers outside the control the party you fear could listen.

      If the destination is running Tor, it can configure Tor to see the web content so that the server would be your exit node and communication from you to that server would never exit the Tor network.

      Perfect forwarding secrecy:

      Perfect forward secrecy: In the original Onion Routing design, a single hostile node could record traffic and later compromise successive nodes in the circuit and force them to decrypt it. Rather than using a single multiply encrypted data structure (an onion) to lay each circuit, Tor now uses an incremental or telescoping path-building design, where the initiator negotiates session keys with each successive hop in the circuit. Once these keys are deleted, subsequently compromised nodes cannot decrypt old traffic. As a side benefit, onion replay detection is no longer necessary, and the process of building circuits is more reliable, since the initiator knows when a hop fails and can then try extending to a new node.

      https://www.torproject.org/svn/trunk/doc/design-paper/tor-design.html

      Entry Guard:

      But profiling is, for most users, as bad as being traced all the time: they want to do something often without an attacker noticing, and the attacker noticing once is as bad as the attacker noticing more often. Thus, choosing many random entries and exits gives the user no chance of escaping profiling by this kind of attacker.

      The solution is "entry guards": each user selects a few relays at random to use as entry points, and uses only those relays for entry. If those relays are not controlled or observed, the attacker can't win, ever, and the user is secure. If those relays *are* observed or controlled by the attacker, the attacker sees a larger _fraction_ of the user's traffic -- but still the user is no more profiled than before. Thus, the user has some chance (on the order of (n-c)/n) of avoiding profiling, whereas she had none before.

      https://wiki.torproject.org/noreply/TheOnionRouter/TorFAQ#head-9927a2f6d044e4c5b1fc610d92175b7c8d4f49d9

    15. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      I haven't read about TOR for a while, and yes doing a bruteforce MitM attack would be impractical with current technology, but all encryption can be broken, that's all I was implying :p

      But that's okay because everyone can also live forever through nanotechnology, so why worry about going to jail for a few years?

    16. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by DamnStupidElf · · Score: 1

      I can't imagine why anyone paranoid enough to use Tor wouldn't use SSL to connect to their final endpoint. Do the anti-government freedom and revolution sites not bother setting up https or something?

    17. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by Shadow-isoHunt · · Score: 1

      Even SSL isn't that much of a guarantee if you *are* connecting with it. You can't trust the end point, period. Self signed certs are easily swapped out on the fly, and anyone can get a signed cert from godaddy or where ever. The average user just clicks right through SSL warnings including mismatching domains, because they happen all the time.
      It's the overall "business" of CAs that make the whole thing pointless on a mass scale right now, when combined with training users to click through warnings. Combine this with FPGAs and community efforts towards fraud on a mass scale, and I wouldn't be suprised if certs for major sites that don't change them often haven't already been computed.

      How many old debian certs do you think are still out there? Ouch.

      --
      www.isoHunt.com
    18. Re:SSL over Tor with Pivroxy by beyondkaoru · · Score: 1

      uhg. don't listen to that other guy. anyway. in case you are really curious, consider that (apart from the issues of users and programs and operating systems leaking info accidentally) the servers that run tor nodes are few and have no real system of determining who is trustworthy enough. they put some effort in, for example making sure you don't use nodes too close to one another in your route, but it's not perfect.

      an excellent attack that someone with a large-ish amount of money could perform on tor would be to simply host a _lot_ of nodes, and in many different locations. the total number of tor servers is in the mere thousands, i believe. so, if you're willing to spend, say, a few tens of thousands of dollars, you could use hosting services to run your own corrupt nodes. if you control, say, one half of existing tor nodes, there is a 1/2 chance that you can read exit traffic (if you just wanted to get a feel of what tor users are doing), and a (1/2)^3=1/8 chance of both getting knowledge of who the client and server are. in the case of hidden services, it's (1/2)^6, but same deal.

      now, if you are, say, at&t, or someone who has access to spying on at&t and other isp's, you don't really even need to break any cryptography or interfere in any way; you just time when someone connects to some server, followed by that server connecting to another, etc, and have a reasonable idea of who is connecting to whom. there's a publicly available list of tor servers to help you test, even :)

      in the non-expensive category are such silly things as asking people for their password, or website cookie issues, all of which sound unimportant but of course will give you away.

      if you are really interested in such things, i recommend reading whatever papers you feel are interesting from this page:

      http://freehaven.net/anonbib/topic.html

      --
      the privacy of one's mind is important.
      you do have something to hide.
  3. ISPs react by Ted+Freeman · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This will lead to governments putting pressure on ISPs to block all P2P traffic. Say goodbye to downloading Linux or other software P2P once P2P clients default to encryption.

    1. Re:ISPs react by Jedi+Alec · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Isn't that the point? If all your traffic is encrypted, how is the ISP supposed to tell what is what?

      --

      People replying to my sig annoy me. That's why I change it all the time.
    2. Re:ISPs react by Ted+Freeman · · Score: 0
      From the article

      newer traffic management solutions can identify P2P transfers by simply looking at the patterns of your uploads and downloads and not at the individual data packets

      The packet headers will not be encrypted of course, along with the size, source, destination and frequency and number of packets transmitted, that's probably enough.

    3. Re:ISPs react by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      And that's why there is talk about padding the packets to fool them.

    4. Re:ISPs react by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      ...how is the ISP supposed to tell what is what?

      Because if they can't, they will not transmit your traffic. Why is nobody seeing this?? Privacy is a privilege of the state, not the individual. Good luck trying to convince 99% of the population otherwise. Anybody else who wants it are nothing more than terrorists and criminals.

      --
      What?
    5. Re:ISPs react by JoelKatz · · Score: 1

      This history of the Internet proves this attitude wrong. Sure, governments try to regulate the Internet and restrict the free flow of information. The problem is that they generally fail to do so, and as a result, freedom is making significant progress around the world.

      Ubiquitous encryption is the next step in this same direction. This will force organizations in the United States to decide whether they want to try to clamp down on this or let it go free. They have been unable to clamp down in the past, and they know that if they clamp down, what can they say the next time China clamps down?

      Freedom will win. Really. And encrypting everything, making encryption the norm, is a huge step towards that goal.

  4. What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by cyb97 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Sounds like a poor man's implementation of IPsec to me...

    oh wait, without the standardisation of course.

    1. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by hitmark · · Score: 1

      and without all the config hassle...

      --
      comment first, facts later. http://chem.tufts.edu/AnswersInScience/RelativityofWrong.htm
    2. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by KinkyClown · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      That almost the same as ODF and OOXML, right?

    3. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Informative

      There is little to no config hassle if you use IPSec with opportunistic encryption. IPSec tunnels through UDP if there is NAT on the way, so that isn't a problem either. The trouble with IPSec is that it only does opportunistic encryption with DNSSec for key management, and that is not deployed. The PirateBay's solution to key management however is not to use any, so their solution only helps against passive eavesdropping. I'm not impressed.

    4. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Zarhan · · Score: 4, Informative

      I'm wondering how much overlap there will be compared to Better-than-nothing-security.

    5. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Threni · · Score: 2, Insightful

      > and without all the config hassle...

      If you're expecting end users to do anything, then anything more complicated than `pick a password` and then later `enter the password` is not going to work. Even then, you'll have to deal with people forgetting passwords.

    6. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Kent+Recal · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Parent is spot on.

      IPSEC *may* be very well engineered but few of us would want to touch it even with a 10ft pole. Especially those of us who *had* to work with it in the past.
      It should be possible to implement IPSEC without the warts. Hell, IPSEC could be zero-configuration out of the box (linklevel encryption only) with only minimal configuration for peer certificates.

      Good Crypto doesn't have to be painful, see OpenSSH, OpenVPN (commonly chosen instead of IPSEC), GnuPG.

      I just don't see what this has to do with P2P at all? Solution looking for a problem?
      When the ISPs can't sniff our traffic anymore they'll just connect to the trackers and look at the offerings.

      But then I again I never understood the legal fuzz about P2P in first place.
      To me the key is plausible deniability. Store your shared content on an encrypted drive and that's it.

    7. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I concur.

      Having to set up some corporate VPNs in the past, I cannot even fathom why anyone in their right mind would choose IPsec over, say, OpenVPN, other then being forced into it by some idiot vendor or a moron manager. The difference in complexity, amount of work on the part of the network designer and sysadmins is just astronomically different between the two solutions.

      From first-hand experience I can only confirm that IPsec is for masochists. Anyone I know who ever tried to deploy the thing does only so once.

      Also note that more convoluted and difficult to control a security solution is, more chances of security vulnerabilities, both from the perspective of possible errors in design and implementation of such complex schemes, but also (more likely in practice) from the perspective of faulty deployment by people who do not have time to parse word by word 300 page deployment manuals bristling with obscure acronyms and arcane cryptography concepts.

    8. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      why anyone in their right mind would choose IPsec over, say, OpenVPN,

      OpenVPN is TCP. UDP over TCP gives up all advantages of UDP. TCP over TCP can result in some hard to avoid situations where the inner and outer flow control algorithms work against eachother.

      In the end you have to provide exactly the same information to get OpenVPN running as you would need to configure IPSec (preshared keys or certificates, ip address ranges for tunnel endpoints). The only difference is that people are used to running protocols over one TCP connection, whereas IPSec's use of IP protocols other than TCP or UDP scares them.

    9. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by complete+loony · · Score: 1

      I've quickly skimmed their wiki. Let me get this straight, they are planning on installing an OS level network hook that intercepts every outgoing TCP connection and sends a bunch of seemingly random data to the server on the other end... Sounds like everyone connecting to any service you write might be inadvertently stress testing it. Better hope you don't have any buffer overflow exploits.

      --
      09F91102 no, 455FE104 nope, F190A1E8 uh-uh, 7A5F8A09 that's not it, C87294CE no. Ah! 452F6E403CDF10714E41DFAA257D313F.
    10. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Evangelion · · Score: 1

      ... and how is that not a concern?

      If it's harder to use for the average sysadmin, then more mistakes will be made, which will compromise security.

    11. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by CharlieHedlin · · Score: 2, Informative

      I setup a fixed VPN for about 40 networks using IPSec. It wasn't terribly painful, but I did go with a Hub and spoke configuration instead of a full mesh.

      I use an IPSec with L2TP network at my office all the time. We have a proper CA and certificates issued to each of the mobile computers. took about 2 hours to setup.

    12. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 2, Interesting

      OpenSwan also supports doing encryption with peers based on certificates. Assuming we geeks agreed on a set of certificate authorities, we could have our opportunistic encryption.

      See my thoughts from earlier.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    13. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 2, Informative

      I'm obviously a masochist. IPSec is easier to deploy than SMTP service, or a properly configured Apache+PHP server. IPSec is much easier to design than a good firewall, or a decent routing architecture, or DNS systems. Obviously you haven't worked enough with other major Internet protocols.

      Last I checked, it takes me about 15 minutes, including the download time to configure a strong Openswan connection between two machines using IPSec. Download, open each machine in separate SSH sessions, copy and paste key IDs to the two config files, enter the IP addresses, save and restart IPSec. Done.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    14. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      I use an IPSec with L2TP network at my office all the time. We have a proper CA and certificates issued to each of the mobile computers. took about 2 hours to setup.

      Ah, you mean a monolithic, single-vendor "solution" with a pre-packaged custom IPSec implementation? You might as well use whatever else Microsoft has pre-packaged for their monoculture and call yourself an expert. Unfortunately the rest of us are faced with somewhat less trivial cases of mutiple-vendor, multiple OS environments. Which is where it all falls apart, because Microsoft has hidden about 95% of the configuration information behind their wizards with pre-selected (and pretty much for all practical purposes unchangeable) choices.

      Which is the main reason for which some people in many shops just throw their hands up, say "fuck it" and order overpriced but "turn-key" end-to-end single-vendor VPN solutions from places like Cisco, complete with some contract-bound drones in India ready to program the thing for you remotely.

    15. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by IgnoramusMaximus · · Score: 1

      Last I checked, it takes me about 15 minutes, including the download time to configure a strong Openswan connection between two machines using IPSec. Download, open each machine in separate SSH sessions, copy and paste key IDs to the two config files, enter the IP addresses, save and restart IPSec. Done.

      That is assuming that your Openswan happens to compile for your particular distro and kernel (never you mind it coming pre-packaged), that it talks to some oddball firmware implementation of IPSec (on which some genius consultant insists) etc and so on. You are of course neglecting to mention the million of different IPsec options that Openswan implements and are assuming that the defaults will work with whatever is at the other end of the link.

    16. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The concepts are not that different, they just look different, and it's mostly because IPSec addresses problems which OpenVPN ignores. Apparently we are abandoning packet-switching if using TCP is such a huge advantage for a VPN protocol. IMHO an SSL VPN is every bit as kludgy as NAT: it's simple, it mostly works, it will never go away and future admins will curse the person who came up with it.

    17. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The proper solution would be to establish an alternative DNSSec hierarchy for reverse name resolution of dynamic IP addresses (because .in-addr.arpa isn't going to play with us). Then put the keys in that hierarchy and just turn on opportunistic IPSec with that hierarchy as the key source.

    18. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by grub · · Score: 1

      OpenVPN can run over UDP as well, it defaults to port 1194.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    19. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by dave420 · · Score: 1

      I set up a VPN server on our SBS2003 box, and it works fine with Linux, OS X, and Windows (XP and Vista).

    20. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's good news. But OpenVPN is still a VPN protocol, not a many-to-many protocol: It has the same key management problems as IPSec and adds the problem that you have to communicate the appropriate ports for the separate tunnels.

    21. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by grub · · Score: 1

      Oh I wasn't trying to make OpenVPN sound like it's a super solution but it does work well for its purpose.

      At work our sites tie together with IPSEC and our laptop users roam around the world connecting via OpenVPN.

      --
      Trolling is a art,
    22. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You've never tried to get MS IPsec to work with Solaris IPsec through Cisco's IPsec, have you? with certificates? Good luck. IPsec interop between OSes is such a clusterf*ck it's not worth it.

    23. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by ArsonSmith · · Score: 1

      Hmm, they say they're developing a technology to help prevent passive eavesdropping then:

      "so their solution only helps against passive eavesdropping. I'm not impressed."

      Some people really confuse me.

      --
      Paying taxes to buy civilization is like paying a hooker to buy love.
    24. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by stinerman · · Score: 1

      Looks like someone's got a case of the Mondays. ...even though it's Friday. :-)

    25. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      Actually no, I specified very clearly using OpenSWAN on both ends of the link for a reason.

      There is no interoperability (slow Jedi hand wave) ...

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    26. Re:What... wait... IPsec, is that you? by JoelKatz · · Score: 1

      You've hit on the main thing their 'proposal' is missing. It provides no way to discover whether another end node supports the protocol or not.

  5. Pirating or not by BiggerIsBetter · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I can't see a downside from a user perspective, and the only Govt/ISP/etc justifications not to do this are an invasion of privacy (packet headers could be used for QoS, etc). It's like, I dunno, posting all your mail in an sealed envelope instead of on a postcard - you can still put an economy or airmail sticker on it, it just means the postman can't (easily) read your message anymore.

    --
    Forget thrust, drag, lift and weight. Airplanes fly because of money.
    1. Re:Pirating or not by Hal_Porter · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Makes you wonder what the internet would look like if you had real privacy actually. Hope you like /b/

      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    2. Re:Pirating or not by Koiu+Lpoi · · Score: 3, Insightful

      It's funny you say that. It's almost like what happens on 4chan's /b/ "random" board are closer to human nature, because people are not held back by personal inhibitions.

    3. Re:Pirating or not by Spatial · · Score: 1

      You mean real privacy with no rules or moderation. Only the latter make /b/ what it is.

    4. Re:Pirating or not by computational+super · · Score: 1

      I'd take that description a step further and say "what happens when people can truly say what's on their mind without fear of retribution." Unfortunately, a lot of people don't like what other people say when they speak without fear of retribution and will go to great lengths to silence them.

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    5. Re:Pirating or not by meringuoid · · Score: 1
      I'd take that description a step further and say "what happens when people can truly say what's on their mind without fear of retribution."

      So, in other words, it's Normal person + Anonymity + Audience?

      --
      Real Daleks don't climb stairs - they level the building.
    6. Re:Pirating or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yeah? Well at least he isn't an Anonymous Coward.

      FACE!

    7. Re:Pirating or not by Omestes · · Score: 1

      We, your fine Government, resent the term "Invasion of Privacy", since the term "invasion" sounds like a negative action. We, to remove all negative connotations from out ethical, justifiable, and beneficent actions, would prefer the term "Privacy Sharing". Keep in mind that this term is only for interim use until we purge the term "privacy" from the public lexicon, and henceforth re-brand it to "Anti-Child Terrorist Obfuscation Layer".

      Thank you for your cooperation,
      Your Humble Gov't

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    8. Re:Pirating or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      srsly

      There is no Privacy on /b/. Nor is there Anonymity. Not in the actual 'networking' sense. And there's a big difference between Privacy and Anonymity. People would do well to keep the differences in mind.

    9. Re:Pirating or not by Hal_Porter · · Score: 1
      --
      echo -e 'global _start\n _start:\n mov eax, 2\n int 80h\n jmp _start' > a.asm; nasm a.asm -f elf; ld a.o -o a;
    10. Re:Pirating or not by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yes but consider. At the moment /b/ is obnoxious. But most of the content I've seen there is legal. Mods delete kiddie porn and people that upload or even download it get IP banned and occasionally IRL Party Vanned

      But imagine if we had an internet where anonymity and privacy are actually designed in, which is what you need to stop the MPAA party vanning people for piracy. On /b/ sick fucks could post as much illegal porn as they want. The mods wouldn't care (the reason the censor is to stop the site getting blocked by ISPs, but a darknet would probably make that impossible to stop the MPAA presuring ISPs to block pirate sites) and in any case wouldn't have to way to enforce the rules (darknets would anonymize users). The Party Van would have no way to find them either, because the network would be designed to stop users being prosecuted for illegal content. Basically unless you're willing to view a stream of kiddie porn /b/ would become completely impossible to look at. But the thing is that lack of accountability would affect every site. Hell the content on Pirate Bay would probably become more vicious too - at the moment they take down illegal porn and presumably ban people to stop them reposting it. But in a darknet people are untraceable and unbannable.

      I actually think the TPB anarchists are people that have lived in a very organised society, Sweden, all their lives and have no conception how nasty anarchy is.

  6. IPSEC? by Wonko+the+Sane · · Score: 2, Informative

    Doesn't this problem already have a solution?

    1. Re:IPSEC? by LarsG · · Score: 4, Insightful

      How many users do you know that (a) even knows what dns is (b) controls the dns name for their ip (c) is able to configure said dns to include their public key?

      OE works fine for geeks, but is too heavy if the goal is to get average home users encrypted.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    2. Re:IPSEC? by Lord+Bitman · · Score: 1

      I was only half-surprised that this wasn't already mentioned. But then, didn't they say something like they expected most internet traffic to be encrypted using their system by 1998 or something? Such epic failure, it's probably safe to ignore them.

      --
      -- 'The' Lord and Master Bitman On High, Master Of All
  7. There's a apretty-ned8bdrnki(bdr## dept? by YourExperiment · · Score: 1

    This would also be a boon to anyone else concerned about civil liberties, presumably. I can't imagine many governments being particularly happy to see such a plan come to fruition.

  8. you think you can defeat govt that easy? by circletimessquare · · Score: 4, Insightful

    reply:

    "pirate bay has become a haven for child pronographers. shut it down"

    --
    intellectual property law is philosophically incoherent. it is your moral duty to ignore it or sabotage it
    1. Re:you think you can defeat govt that easy? by ozamosi · · Score: 1

      I wonder if the demonstrations against the Swedish government, which mostly have been peaceful except for DoS attacks against the government's web servers when the FRA law was approved, would continue to be peaceful if TPB was shut down...

    2. Re:you think you can defeat govt that easy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Full of Bullshit... not a thing about that on Pirate Bay web site.

      STFU

      Actually, the web is open to anyone who want to look at what you do. Corporation do data mining of the web itself. Everything you do is put in a freaking database for further uses.

      Before Internet, people where paying to create customers profile. Now, they spy on you.

      Anyway, with all those Human Right simply put to the trash can with an open Internet, it's the time some people think to protect our RIGHTS.

    3. Re:you think you can defeat govt that easy? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      They already tried that, didn't work out all too well.

    4. Re:you think you can defeat govt that easy? by computational+super · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      Wow... you missed his point so hard that your lack of comprehension created a singularity in the space-time continuum that now threatens to cause the universe to fold in upon itself...

      --
      Proud neuron in the Slashdot hivemind since 2002.
    5. Re:you think you can defeat govt that easy? by aliquis · · Score: 1

      Yeah, because shutting pirate bays tracker down will surely stop encrypting the Internet!

      Also, like, you know, it's already been shut down... ... for like two days or something impressive like that.

  9. Man in the Middle by nahdude812 · · Score: 5, Informative

    Without preshared keys, this is vulnerable to a man in the middle attack. Your ISP or the government's spies or whoever simply intercept your communications with the other peer at the time of hand shaking and key exchange, and hands their own encryption information to both parties. Decrypt each message, and encrypt it for the other party before sending it down the line.

    This protects against casual snooping, but it completely fails to account for the level of involvement that domestic spying already suffers from.

    1. Re:Man in the Middle by uigin · · Score: 1

      Very true. But with the level of criminal activity in the form of botnets, etc., I'd be happy to at least have that half way solution to begin with.
      (and yes I know most traffic doesn't travel through hijacked bots but there are plenty of other dodgy nodes out there)

    2. Re:Man in the Middle by Metorical · · Score: 1

      Perhaps I'm missing something and you're making a valid point but...

      Doesn't public/private keys solve this problem. Encrypt with public key but can only decrypt with private key. Share public keys so anyone can send you an encrypted message but only you can decrypt it.

    3. Re:Man in the Middle by aaaaaaargh! · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I'm not sure, but as it stands there seems to be an even simpler attack. Mallory, the man in the middle, just makes sure that when Alice establishes the initial, unencrypted connection to Bob, Bob's reply is forged to indicate that he doesn't support encryption. As a result, all traffic will be unencrypted.

    4. Re:Man in the Middle by LarsG · · Score: 1

      Yes, we all know what a mitm attack is.

      This is not to defend against mitm attacks targeted at specific users, this is to defend against net-wide dragnet filtering.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    5. Re:Man in the Middle by MoogMan · · Score: 1

      A perception of security is generally far worse than no security at all.

      It wouldn't be far fetched to imagine a bespoke MITM proxy that decrypts all connections and logs them to a backend.

    6. Re:Man in the Middle by linzeal · · Score: 1

      The US government would have to have a datacenter with encryption the size of Rhode Island to snoop on everyone.

    7. Re:Man in the Middle by ledow · · Score: 1

      The only "defences" you could have against such MITM attacks would be either chains of trusted keys for every site that uses the system (a hefty burden and a central repository of trusted keys makes it the main target for attack, either DoS or infiltration) or: have sites supply their public key information via DNS or similar and have clients cache it, which is easily spoofed, but at least you'd know when something "changed". A bit like SSH's authorized_keys.

    8. Re:Man in the Middle by Fzz · · Score: 5, Informative
      Yes, anonymous public key exchange is vulnerable to a man-in-the-middle attack, unless you use something like the Interlock Protocol, which is probably a bit heavyweight to use for all connections.

      But what this does do is tilt the balance of power against the eavesdropper. It prevents passive eavesdropping attacks - for example it prevents anyone recording all traffic and then after-the-fact deciding what they want to decode.

      Anyone wanting to decode your traffic is forced to be an active adversary, and this makes them detectable, which means they won't do it all the time because there'd be a huge outcry. No more mining all the traffic that passes on internet backbone links - you could tell when the first ISP put an eavesdropping box into their network, and switch to another ISP, which would strongly discourage anyone from doing this in the first place.

      It's much more expensive to be an active man in the middle for all traffic - the best bet would be to downgrade traffic by pretending the other end didn't support the option. Even this isn't cheap. To leave the traffic encrypted and intercept it all would require a ridiculous number of public key accelerators cards.

      In the end, it doesn't stop anyone eavesdropping if they suspect one particular person, but it does make such interception detectable if you know what you're doing, and it does stop them eavesdropping all traffic in the hope of hearing something incriminating.

    9. Re:Man in the Middle by Xest · · Score: 1

      I've got to admit cryptography isn't my greatest strength so I could well have misunderstood here but I thought you could handle it as follows-

      You have a public key system to transfer the keys for the encryption system used for the main transfers, the public key can decrypt in such a way that only the private key can decrypt. So:
      - Person 1 takes person 2's public key and encrypts their transfer encryption/decryption key with it
      - Person 2 decrypts person 1's key encrypted with his public key using his private key
      - Person 2 can then communicate with person 1 using the key sent in an encrypted form

      The only way I could see man in the middle working is brute force by using the public key of person 2 to encrypt strings of text until they get a match of the key sent by person 1 to person 2 that was encrypted using person 2's public key. Person 2's private key is never sent across the network and is the only thing that can decrypt the other key that was sent encrypted by person 1. At this point the key that will be used by the two has been transferred in an encrypted form and need never be transferred again after that. As such I can't see how it would be intercepted.

      Is this not possible? have I missed some blatantly obvious security gap that a man in the middle attack can exploit here? I'm pretty sure I've read about plenty of encryption systems whereby a public key can only encrypt and a private key is required to decrypt the data encrypted by the public key.

    10. Re:Man in the Middle by LarsG · · Score: 1

      Excellent, grasshopper.

      Now for the next step: how to share said keys in an efficient way.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    11. Re:Man in the Middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      the public keys could be exchanged in the handshake.
      it dosent matter if the man in the middle gets them since he only can use them to encrypt and not decrypt.
      So i relly dont se the problem

    12. Re:Man in the Middle by LarsG · · Score: 5, Insightful

      The purpose of this thing is to enable regular home users to avoid the dragnet filtering that the swedes are implementing. Forging replies for every tcp/udp connection crossing the swedish border would make that filtering a lot more expensive.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    13. Re:Man in the Middle by miro+f · · Score: 5, Informative

      The main problem is in step 1.

      - Person 1 takes person 2's public key and encrypts their transfer encryption/decryption key with it

      the big problem with public key cryptography is that you get a public key from person 2, how do you know this public key is actually from person 2 and not from person 3 trying to listen to the conversation? If there's a person listening in the middle they can intercept the traffic on both ends and replace each other person's public key with their own. That way they can pretend to be person 1 to person 2, and pretend to be person 2 to person 1.

      It makes it more difficult, but it's still not impossible, to snoop on that traffic.

      It's the delivery of the public key from person 2 and person 1 that is the biggest problem with public key cryptography, and a problem which certificates and Certificate Authorities have mitigated (to an extent). But for the greater Internet, it's a more difficult proposition to give everyone certificates.

      --
      being vague is almost as cool as doing that other thing...
    14. Re:Man in the Middle by LarsG · · Score: 1

      Then how do you defend against the mitm substituting his own keys?

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    15. Re:Man in the Middle by Xest · · Score: 1

      Cheers for that ;) Makes sense now!

    16. Re:Man in the Middle by huge · · Score: 2, Informative

      You nailed it.

      Pre-shared keys, root certificates and and PGP-like key signing aren't likely to scale to truly ubiquitous encryption.

      Any system that wants to provide ubiquitous encryption that isn't susceptible to man-in-the-middle attacks needs to either implement chain of trust or to overcome the problem in some completely different manner.

      In order to ubiquitous encryption to really fly, we need similar break through in authentication as public-key encryption was in cryptography.

      Like you said, this would still provide protection against casual eavesdropper but not against ISP or government with resources to perform such an operation. Granted, it would still bury the illegitimate traffic to majority of the legitimate traffic and only way to distinguish these two from each other would be by performing MitM attack to all encrypted traffic.

      Better than nothing? Definitely yes, but this still addresses only part of the problem.

      --
      -- Reality checks don't bounce.
    17. Re:Man in the Middle by Compholio · · Score: 1

      You could just use SSH to tunnel traffic to the destination. If you use DNS 'TXT' records to publish the public key then you should know that you're talking to the correct machine, except that you'd need a way to identify machines that have no DNS record.

    18. Re:Man in the Middle by I+cant+believe+its+n · · Score: 1

      If I'm not mistaken, there didn't even use to be a Rhode Island before the 50's.

      --
      She made the willows dance
    19. Re:Man in the Middle by Keeper+Of+Keys · · Score: 1

      I'm mostly concerned about keeping my traffic private from my ISP, so that is a real problem. But I'm not sure how else you can get the private key out to people. Maybe a separate server that generates one-time keys? So your ISP sees you're making a connection but can't find out what the key is because it's no longer available.

    20. Re:Man in the Middle by JayJay.br · · Score: 1

      Not if you use Diffie-Hellman.

      FTFWiki:

      Diffie-Hellman key exchange (D-H) is a cryptographic protocol that allows two parties that have no prior knowledge of each other to jointly establish a shared secret key over an insecure communications channel.

    21. Re:Man in the Middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Then how do you defend against the mitm substituting his own keys?

      It is presumed that there would be many copies of any given public key out in the wild, in the open. Mitm would need to be omnipresent to substitute all of them with own copy and the owner would notice and alarm the public.

    22. Re:Man in the Middle by Kent+Recal · · Score: 1

      You are right but every layer of security helps and at least this raises the bar for large scale traffic analysis.
      Today's hardware can easily "grep" on a large number of concurrent, non-encrypted connections - without breaking a sweat.
      The same task suddenly becomes very expensive when you have to maintain a MITM for each connection.

      Thus, at the very least this would throw big brother back to picking his targets one by one...

    23. Re:Man in the Middle by socsoc · · Score: 2, Interesting

      While only Peter Griffin knows the true size of Rhode Island, we have gov installations that are close... White Sands, Cheyenne Mountain and MGAGCC come to mind. Although, they hide all of their datacenters in an underground lair.

    24. Re:Man in the Middle by Profane+MuthaFucka · · Score: 1

      As long as we're planning to distribute custom network drivers around the world to be installed everywhere, there's no reason why information can't be shared in a bittorrent sort of way.

      IP address X doesn't support encryption? Well that's odd, because approximately 98% of other people who connect there report it DOES. Red flag.

      They're going to have to intercept all traffic, or be detectable. And then they have to count on the owner of the IP address not doing his own checks on it. "That IP should be encrypted, but nobody's getting encryption on that IP. Uh oh."

      Detecting man-in-the-middle attacks might actually be practical if everybody is sharing quality information about their connection. But of course, we have to protect the distribution of that data from attacks too...

      --
      Fascism trolls keeping me up every night. When I starts a preachin', he HITS ME WITH HIS REICH!
    25. Re:Man in the Middle by nasor · · Score: 1

      But is anyone actually doing that anyway? So far as I know, they catch people by actually joining a torrent and seeing who sends them pieces of the copyrighted file. It seems like trying to protect against man-in-the-middle, eavesdropping, etc. is trying to address a problem that doesn't really exist in this particular case (torrents). It's like trying to build an ultra-secure building that no one can spy into from the outside, but them letting anyone who wants to come inside and look around.

    26. Re:Man in the Middle by Wildclaw · · Score: 1

      From the link you posted

      "In the original description, the Diffie-Hellman exchange by itself does not provide authentication of the communicating parties and is thus vulnerable to a man-in-the-middle attack. A person in the middle may establish two distinct Diffie-Hellman key exchanges, one with Alice and the other with Bob, effectively masquerading as Alice to Bob, and vice versa, allowing the attacker to decrypt (and read or store) then re-encrypt the messages passed between them. A method to authenticate the communicating parties to each other is generally needed to prevent this type of attack."

      So no Diffie-Hellman doesn't protect againt MITM attacks by itself.

    27. Re:Man in the Middle by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not necessarily. From a single users perspective your correct but from a general high level perspective it would be quite effective in my opinion.

      It provides confidentiality for bulk data flows making wholesale easedropping infeasable. Launching MITM requires a great deal more resources and network access than simply listening to traffic between core routers and is at least possible to detectable by end users later via an offline/sneakernet method or automatically in subsequent handshakes that were not MITM influenced. Just illuminating government sponsered MITM attack would in itself have several potential benefits.

      If the software provides long term storage of keys negotiated after the initial encrypted conversation...subsequent MITM attempts against "persons of interest" would be too late and much much more difficult to carry out.

      Its not perfect but better than nothing without a massive key distribution system that itself would likly be subject to wholesale subversion due to general lack of trustworthyness at that scale on the network in the first place.

    28. Re:Man in the Middle by nahdude812 · · Score: 1

      If you can't trust your ISP not to act as a MITM agent, then you can't trust them to give you a valid DNS TXT record either.

    29. Re:Man in the Middle by sowth · · Score: 1

      This is why fingerprints are used. Even just checking a few random digits makes it worlds harder for a MitM attack to evade detection.

      Obviously, it doesn't help if the person checking the fingerprint doesn't know what it should be, but one would think with all the publicity they get, TPB should be able to get their real fingerprint out there. Non-famous people could use a phone call: "The third number in my fingerprint is 4f."

  10. Great by uigin · · Score: 2, Informative

    With a popular site like Pirate Bay behind it. This might actually catch on. If we all had to use an encrypted protocol to communicate with Google all internet traffic would quickly switch to that format.

  11. IPSec + no MTU/NAT issues + zeroconf by Zarhan · · Score: 5, Informative

    Not really, from their site

    The goal of transparency to the transport layer means that the user will not have to configure anything, just install the encryption software and go. It also makes sure that encrypted traffic will travel over IP carriers without trouble (except in the case of mandatory transparent proxying). Current IP-transport encryption using tunneling or IPSec do not have the same property. Many low-cost ISPs filter IP protocols and TCP/UDP ports to block encypted traffic and there is always a cost to the user in configuring key-exchange, NAT-traversal and such. Anonymity can be provided by existing IP-anonymizing networks such as tor and i2p since the encryption is transport-independent.

    So they are planning to roll out zeroconf IPSec that doesn't NEED to have specific support for NAT traversal. Now, "NAT Traversal" technically just means UDP encapsulation (which in turn results in all fancy MTU problems).

    It seems that they are only interested in encrypting the TCP/UDP payload, with key negotiation happening at the start of the session (SYN/ACK packets for TCP, and as a completely separate negotiation with UDP).

    If they can go with this, I sure hope they write an informative RFC..

    1. Re:IPSec + no MTU/NAT issues + zeroconf by ArikTheRed · · Score: 1

      WTF?

    2. Re:IPSec + no MTU/NAT issues + zeroconf by jez9999 · · Score: 0, Troll

      Another couple of things they should do is send all data on port 443, and use the interlock protocol for key exchange. Much more difficult as they have to a) figure out that the traffic is not HTTPS and b) be an active participant in the MITM attack to be able to snoop on the communications.

  12. Watt?! by LSD-OBS · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If several million people all started encrypting all of their traffic, there's gonna be a whole lot more CPU usage and therefore more power consumption going on. ThePirateBay, think of the penguins!

    (Come to think of it, the consumption increase might be offset by firefox 3 raping CPUs less than firefox 2 used too :)

    --
    Today's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Hunter S. Thompson
    1. Re:Watt?! by FlyingBishop · · Score: 1

      I don't know if you've tried the IE8 beta, but it makes FF2 look like it was written in C. And unfortunately, IE* still owns the market, so we need to convert the world to firefox to make encryption a carbon-neutral affair.

    2. Re:Watt?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Funny

      might be offset by firefox 3 raping CPUs less than firefox 2 used too

      My CPU is brand new so would that be statutory rape?

    3. Re:Watt?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Internet Explorer ?? Firefox 3 ??
      Ditch both of them and use Opera - a much better browser.
      Opera had features in it a year ago that are only now in FF3 and still has useful features that neither IE or FF3 have.

    4. Re:Watt?! by LSD-OBS · · Score: 1

      I used Opera exclusively back in the 5.x days. Since then I find the interface less and less agreeable, sorry (and all the features I enjoyed are becoming more standard, and are all easily available via extensions)

      --
      Today's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Hunter S. Thompson
    5. Re:Watt?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

      oh dear god the prophecy is coming true. Pirates are about to cause global warming!

      quick, beg for mercy at the noodley appendage of our one true god.

    6. Re:Watt?! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's OK, more pirates will bring down the temperatures anyway.

    7. Re:Watt?! by lilomar · · Score: 5, Funny

      Pirates prevent global warming. Heretic.

      --
      The creator of this post (Jacob Smith) hereby releases it, and all of his other posts, into the public domain.
    8. Re:Watt?! by Woy · · Score: 2, Interesting

      That sounds good but its just not true. I run on encrypted root and home and there is no noticeable performance difference, even in big file copies. Network encryption is very very little work for the cpu.

      --
      "If God created us in his own image we have more than reciprocated." - Voltaire
    9. Re:Watt?! by Keeper+Of+Keys · · Score: 1

      True. They are reducing the number of plastic disks that need to be manufactured.

    10. Re:Watt?! by Rhys · · Score: 1

      Why look, a great use for some of the spare cores on multicore chips we have laying around!

      --
      Slashdot Patriotism: We Support our Dupes!
    11. Re:Watt?! by LSD-OBS · · Score: 1

      Sure, but not as fun

      --
      Today's weirdness is tomorrow's reason why. -- Hunter S. Thompson
    12. Re:Watt?! by gad_zuki! · · Score: 1

      Why would they care? If youre the kind of person who is pirating movies (after this is the pirate bay) then youre probably leaving machines on 24/7 to finish the downloads. Whats a little more wood in the bonfire?

    13. Re:Watt?! by stinerman · · Score: 1

      FF2 is written in C (and C++). At least that's what about:buildconfig tells me.

  13. Speaking of unfinished projects by oodaloop · · Score: 0, Offtopic

    TFA mentions some unfinished projects. What about the island they wanted to buy and turn into a sovereign nation? How's that one coming along?

    --
    Tic-Tac-Toe, Global Thermonuclear War, and relationships all have the same winning move.
    1. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by cliffski · · Score: 0, Troll

      you are delusional if you think thepiratebay cares about anything but this:

      Ad revenue

      Thats what the site is there for, not fighting for anyone freedom, or privacy, or any other bullshit that they cloak it with. The site makes a virtue out of the fact that it hosts no technically illegal files, yet it cries about bandwidth to justify its extensive ads, and the fact that it is one of the highest earning sites on the web for ad revenue.
      On top of this, they trick the poor kids who love the site into buying t shirts, and even contributing to their Swiss bank account to buy a fucking island!

      Hilarious.

      As a major money-making organisation, I think its especially amazing that they manage to persuade their users that they are "sticking it to the man" by using the site.
      thepiratebay is just a front for a large scale criminal organisation to profit from the work of musicians, TV producers, actors and software developers. If you really think that those Swedish kids that they put on TV to represent them are the ones running that site, then you are really beyond help.
      Of course its all a front. And this new idea of theirs will not happen. Its designed to get headlines because headlines == traffic == ad revenue.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    2. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by neokushan · · Score: 1

      Except that they never actually intended to buy the island and made it quite clear on the site that they didn't intend on doing it.

      --
      +1 IDisagreeSoHeMustBeATrollOrAnAstroturferOrAShill
    3. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by cliffski · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      just goes to show how ignorant the average piratebay fans are then.

      I bet the guys collecting the money were in stitches.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    4. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      Possibly, or it may have been a testament as to who people would rather give money to - the Piratebay or the RIAA.

    5. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Do you have some reference or some source for all your allegations and bias?

      Of course, someone is making money, I donÂt know how much or who does, I donÂt care. But clearly, there is a political agenda behind this too, and YOU are the ones saying your words, so you better back it up if anyone is going to take you seriously.

    6. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Well yea... too bad nobody on Slashdot cares about ethics. Fuck you all (except the guy that wrote this comment.)

    7. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by kv9 · · Score: 0, Troll

      how much are you getting to troll here? is it like per post, per amount of bullshit spewed per post? is your sound recording still working?

    8. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by catxk · · Score: 1

      So, when exactly did this change in things happen? TPB was booted up loooooong before BitTorrent hit the mainstream and in all things that matter, it was at best in the margin of anything important for years.

      And those kids with the bad skin has been at the rudder since the very start. So if I were to buy your trolling, I would in the process accept that they, when their project hit the news, soled out to some evil overlord, exposing themselves to some serious jail time etc. just to get a small slize of the total amount of ad revenue? That is, if anything, an insult to those poor kids.

      And of course they make money, but as a previous poster mentioned, who gives a damn?

      --
      Don't be crazy anymore!
    9. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by cliffski · · Score: 1

      so if the people who make content earn money from their work, they are evil money grabbing fascists, but if the arrogant swedish cunts behind thepiratebay make money from that content whilst contributing fuck all, they are bloody heroes?

      its amazing what bullshit idiots here will spout if it lets them feel good about stealing stuff.
      Mod me troll if you cant handle the truth, like I care what thieves think...

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    10. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by cliffski · · Score: 1

      http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2007/05/did_the_pirate_.html

      "Is the Pirate Bay a front for right wing extremists in Sweden? Yesterday our Epicenter blog, linked to an interesting YouTube video in which Tobias Andersson of The Pirate Bay if asked to defend the site against charges that Carl Lundstrom, former CEO of Rix Telecom and âoewell-known right-wing extremist in Sweden,â funded the early development of the site. [video after the jump]

      Interesting, it turns out that Pirate Bay did take bandwidth and server space from Rix Telecom while is was controlled by Lundstrom, who, as Epicenter says, is probably going to end up being an MPAA/RIAA target at some point."

      if you are fine with giving money to fascist millionaires rather than the people who make content that entertains you, then you are fucked up big time.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    11. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      giving money to the RIAA means some of it (the amount the artists AGREED to in the contract) goes to hte artists, and some to the people who promoted that act so you heard of them. Giving money to thepiratebay just means you make some Swedish web programmers richer, and the artists get fuck all.
      I know I'd rather buy the music from itunes that fatten the wallets of the pricks at TPB.

    12. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by cliffski · · Score: 2, Insightful

      believe it or not, some people don't think that taking other peoples work for free is cool. When you grow up and get a job, you will understand.

      --
      DRM-free indie games for the PC and Mac: Positech Games
    13. Re:Speaking of unfinished projects by catxk · · Score: 1

      so if the people who make content earn money from their work, they are evil money grabbing fascists

      Stop right there. Who said that? I sure as hell didn't. I think very few agree with what you tried to pull there, what people generally disagree with is the methods of the content lobby and those methods' impact on daily lives (freedom, democracy, justice system, and why the hell I can't play a recently bought DVD on my computer/music on my mp3 player).

      --
      Don't be crazy anymore!
  14. Fight Global Warming! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    TPB is obviously related to the FSM church, and this is a good thing - they are fighting global warming (and must use encrypted connections because the planet might be listening).

  15. Obligatory by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

    Va Fbivrg Ehffvn, lbh rapelcg gur Cvengr Onl

    1. Re:Obligatory by phagstrom · · Score: 1

      When I want to encrypt something I always use rot13...twice!

    2. Re:Obligatory by jps25 · · Score: 1

      Va Fbivrg Ehffvn, lbh rapelcg gur Cvengr Onl

      Arrr! Tis' unbreakable aye, me parrot concurs.
      Ye'll ne'er get me buried booty!

  16. Not just about pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Interesting

    For over 2 years I have been encrypting my internet connection using a roll-my-own solution. I trust my ISP implicitly - they are one of the few good guys left in the ISP arena. I don't trust my government.

    The sad thing is I don't even have anything to hide. But I detest the idea that someone, somewhere, might be monitoring what I'm doing. I use an anonymous email service with PGP encryption, I do all my browsing over a VPN connection to a (cheap) VPS server in another country. For added protection I can then tunnel using SSH to another server in another country which then uses tor to make my final connection.

    Security is cheap (the whole setup probably sets me back around $50/mo including my 8mbit dsl line), but it just requires the time, persistence and knowledge to set it up in the first place. If an end-to-end solution can be built-in to the OS AND we can be certain as can be there are no back doors, then this can only be a good thing.

    For those who in the meantime who want to protect themselves but are not too sure where to begin, get yourself a cheap VPS (hundreds of providers out there), set up OpenVPN and off you go. You can even use SSH to tunnel a SOCKS connection for an easier option. I would suggest OpenVPN as a starting point though, as it makes it easier to expand later, e.g. tunneling an SSH connection to another server through the VPN, which can then connect to tor running on localhost on the second machine. Should your connection be intercepted at the ISP level (the most likely?) then they'll have a double-encrypted tunnel to deal with, and then probably an ssl-encrypted https stream inside that as well if you're careful about where you surf.

    Anonymous Coward for obvious reasons ;)

    1. Re:Not just about pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      Hi Jeff. I've been archiving copies of that porn site you started with your girlfriend. Cool security setup you've got though. Glad its working out. Tor exit node campers ftw!

    2. Re:Not just about pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      OK... I can't even find a DSL line in the midwest @ 6Megs for less than $40/month. WHERE are you getting your service?

    3. Re:Not just about pirating by Atti+K. · · Score: 2, Funny

      For over 2 years I have been encrypting my internet connection using a roll-my-own solution. I trust my ISP implicitly - they are one of the few good guys left in the ISP arena. I don't trust my government.

      China or something? Oh, no, wait, you must be from the US!

      The sad thing is I don't even have anything to hide. But I detest the idea that someone, somewhere, might be monitoring what I'm doing. I use an anonymous email service with PGP encryption, I do all my browsing over a VPN connection to a (cheap) VPS server in another country. For added protection I can then tunnel using SSH to another server in another country which then uses tor to make my final connection.

      Do you fully trust your VPS provider? A VPS is even easier to be snooped onto than a good-ol' iron server in some datacenter, imho.

      --
      .sig: No such file or directory
    4. Re:Not just about pirating by kv9 · · Score: 1

      A VPS is even easier to be snooped onto than a good-ol' iron server in some datacenter, imho.

      where do you think the VPS is located? in a magic teapot?

    5. Re:Not just about pirating by Atti+K. · · Score: 2, Interesting
      Let's suppose I host VPSs on some big iron. While each of my VPS customers has root on their own VPS, I have root on the VPS host. Can I easily snoop on their network traffic, their files on the VPS, etc?

      Yes.

      Now let's suppose my customer rents the whole big iron as it is, they do whatever they want on it. They have root on it, I don't. Can I snoop on their network traffic? Yes I can, though it's not that trivial like with the VPS. Can I take a look at their files? I could, but not that easily. I guess they would notice.

      I'm just saying that a remote VPS (or virtual machine or whatever) is just less secure than a remote server on plain hardware.

      --
      .sig: No such file or directory
    6. Re:Not just about pirating by socsoc · · Score: 1

      Dude, seriously? You've reached a whole new level of paranoia. While that setup may work well for you (of course not on services that are country specific, like online video streaming and iTunes)... Wouldn't the latency involved in your myriad of connections kill any sort of gaming or, dare I say it, legal BT traffic? I hate the argument of "if you have nothing to hide," but your degree of complexity makes me think you are doing some really shady stuff. As a previous poster said, please tell me where you get such inexpensive 8mbit DSL to afford these other services at $50/month.

    7. Re:Not just about pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Wouldn't the latency involved in your myriad of connections kill any sort of gaming or, dare I say it, legal BT traffic?

      You do understand that the Internet has usefulness beyond that of consumer entertainment, right? And can you understand that someone with the skills to set up what he described might also have more important things to do with his time than pop heads in Counterstrike?

      It's amazing. Everyone defends privacy as a "human right" in principle, but when they actually encounter someone who's willing to do more than talk about it, they treat him like a freak. This phenomenon isn't limited to discussions of privacy; anyone with interests beyond "what was on television last night" has been on the receiving end of the same insolent smirk from Johnny Average: "Well, sure, I guess X is important and all, but why would you waste your time doing that when you could be partying instead? Whatever, buddy!"

      Speaking of wasted time: bye bye, Slashdot.

    8. Re:Not just about pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Not many VPS providers out there. Definitely not "hundreds".

      You have Findnot (decent service, seems like the only one left), Relakks (which seems to be refusing all US payments), and the Anonymizer (which is Web only.) There used to be anonx.com which was a great service, but it mysteriously disappeared overnight.

      Not much out there, especially if one wants an out of country VPN so their ISP isn't monitoring them 24/7 for a profile to sell to marketers.

    9. Re:Not just about pirating by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Yep, that's the way to do it. You also get a backup service in effect by doing things that way.
      There are inherent problems with running a secure service over public infrastructure. For secure 'red' phones that the government use some communication is always in the open at the start, the red button gets pressed for secure mode once the communications are initiated. After that the keys get swapped. The NSA looks after the keys and their distribution - none get popped in the post. Pirate Bay don't have that way to deliver a key.
      Incidentally, when the public started calling everyone in the immediate aftermath of 11 September 2001 the telephone lines were overwhelmed, making the red phones not work for the simple reason that bandwidth was not available and they could not get a normal line to run their secure call over.

  17. Uh, 10Mbps vz 3Ghz CPU by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Result: CPU wins.

  18. Finally! My biggest fears adressed! by Thanshin · · Score: 0

    I've been thinking about this for years now.

    Go a step ahead in the arms race. Start encrypting before people the control gets to an unbearable point.

    This is guillotining the king when he's still trying to make the senate make remove his position's time limit.

    Just knowing that this is important for more people makes me a bit happier.

    Thanks for the good news. Now tell me someone is addressing how to create an internet that doesn't depend on telecom corporations and I may cry.

  19. https? by zifn4b · · Score: 1

    What about HTTPS? Couldn't an ISP do the same thing and capture personal information such as SSN's, credit card and bank account numbers and then share that information with anyone it wants to? I would imagine that once something like this is compromised at the ISP level, it would cause people to stop using legitimate services on the internet because they can't trust their ISP's.

    --
    We'll make great pets
    1. Re:https? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      No! Did you mis the whole PKI thing?

      ISP can't fake google's cert unless the CAs are in on the gig (quite likely, but a different attack)

    2. Re:https? by LarsG · · Score: 1

      Why do you think your web browser includes root certificates?

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    3. Re:https? by huge · · Score: 1

      HTTPS relies on root certificates to authenticate the remote peer.

      --
      -- Reality checks don't bounce.
  20. Clean up your act first, encrypt later. by Shados · · Score: 2, Insightful

    i know it shouldn't be that way but...the world isn't as it should be. If someone wants to start encrypting anything and everything, including legitimate usages without heavily sensitive information (which is fine and dandy and helps privacy, so its all good and fine), don't start associating it with people who DO have something to hide.

    TPB is doing a huge disservice now. The idiots up there will automatically be like "SEE SEE SEE ?!?!?! Encryption == Piracy, pirates download porn, porn == child porn, think of the children, ban free usage of encryption!!" And then we'll be -worse- off than we are now.

    Clean up your act first, THEN advocate encryption, and all will be well.

    1. Re:Clean up your act first, encrypt later. by justleavealonemmmkay · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I'll use the Larry Flynt defense here: by protecting pirates' (and for all it matters terrorists' and pedophiles') right to use crypto, you de facto protect yours.

    2. Re:Clean up your act first, encrypt later. by Artuir · · Score: 1

      Either way the internet isn't free anymore, according to your viewpoint. Kind of a sad state of affairs, but by the time governments can pass more legislation regarding encryption or any of that bullshit something else will have been figured out.

    3. Re:Clean up your act first, encrypt later. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      What would be the point of encryption then?

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    4. Re:Clean up your act first, encrypt later. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I don't see how they can ban free encryption without breaking the internet entirely. It has been proved time and time again that if they enact a technical or legal 'fix' to a perceived problem, it's worked around inside 20 minutes.

      If they do outlaw encryption then the internet as a commerce platform will cease to be. It'll put entire nations into turmoil. That simply will not happen.

    5. Re:Clean up your act first, encrypt later. by Zangief · · Score: 1

      But then nobody would have an incentive to use their solution...

  21. Our Governments are failing us by Hackerlish · · Score: 1

    This demonstrates the sheer stupidity of our so-called Democratic Governments. Once the pedophiles, terrorizers and crooks were the only ones who needed to encrypt their work. But governments are wasting so many tax payer dollars to spy on their own citizens for no good reason, that now the citizens are turning to encryption too. Now instead of having to concentrate on a small island of encrypted comms, Government will now have to sift through a sea of it. We've got dumb and shady politicians (hey thanks for your FISA betrayal, Obama) and public servants more interested in building empires then generally protecting the people who pay their salaries (that's the taxpayer, not the politicians).

    1. Re:Our Governments are failing us by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Ages past, I used to considered TrueCrypt as something for people to hide their porn or warez. Now with telcos to go off and wiretap as they see fit, border searches of laptops without any probable cause, and the laws the G8 summit will be passing that will be making possession of anything *they* consider pirated (proof is on the owner to prove he owns a license) illegal, utilities like TrueCrypt are now a must have for daily life.

      With the UK and their "give us all keys, or enjoy 2-5 years in the slammer", its not just encryption, its deniable encryption. I'm quite happy that I am able to have two operating systems on my laptop now, thanks to 6.0 of TrueCrypt, so I can write thoughts and do my daily business not just with an encrypted OS, but an OS that is arguably hidden.

  22. SSL by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Surely what they're proposing is basically SSL, everywhere, if a handshake shows that they support it?

    --
    The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
    1. Re:SSL by n3tcat · · Score: 2, Informative

      What is being presented is supposed to operate on a totally different level of the OSI model than SSL does.

    2. Re:SSL by n3tcat · · Score: 2, Informative

      I should also note that this is why people keep comparing it to IPSEC, as it also operates on the network level.

    3. Re:SSL by Idimmu+Xul · · Score: 1

      Gotcha, cheers!

      --
      The problem with slashdot is that most of its users were bullied and stuffed into lockers as kids!
  23. Solved problem! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Better yet, they could find use for an existing proposal, complete with code: OTCP. It transparently encrypts TCP sessions in a way that would defeat Comcast's (and China's) eavesdropping/RST forging; if they wanted to defeat OTCP, they'd have to intercept and rewrite all SYN packets, which is a lot more burdensome. It can't guarantee perfect security, but perfect security is mutually exclusive with providing full backwards compatibility with the existing Internet.

    FAQ:

    Q: Can't this be broken by man-in-the-middle attacks?

    Yes. However, note that this would require interception of traffic which is much more costly than sniffers in parallel and legally more troublesome for the attacker. Additionally, userland crypto protocols could be extended to include the shared secret in their certified handshakes, thus giving them MITM-proof security which includes the TCP layer.

    Q: Doesn't this break NATs?

    NATs rewrite the IP addresses and port numbers in the packets, which we don't include in our MAC protection, so everything should work. If the NAT happens to rebuild the whole packet, the OTCP offer in the SYN packet will be removed. In this case we loose OTCP but, most importantly, we don't break any users.

    NATs which monitor the application level and try to rewrite IP address in there will be broken by this. However, the number of protocols which do this is small and clients may be configured by default not to offer OTCP when the destination port number matches one of these protocols (IRC and FTP spring to mind). This is a hack, but the downside to users of OTCP must be as small as possible.

    Q: So can't I break this by filtering the offer from the SYN packet?

    Yes. Application level protocols could be extended to sense this downgrade attack and stop working, but mostly see the points above: it's much more expensive to do this since it needs to be done in the router and it's legally more troublesome for the attackers.

    Q: Won't this take too much time?

    It's additional CPU load, certainly. The Crypto++ and OpenSSL benchmarks suggest that a full core should be able to handle this at 1 Gbps. Most servers don't see anything like that traffic. Maybe more concerning is the DDoS possibility of using ObsTCP to add additional load via a SYN flood. Since we're using curve25519, no computation is needed to answer a SYN. The shared key computation only occurs when the handshake completes and an optimised curve25519 can do that in about 250us (2.33GHz Core2)

    Q: What about my high-performance network?

    Obviously this makes no sense for "inside the datacenter" and other, high-performance networking environments. ObsTCP is disabled by default for destinations in the private IP address ranges and root can disable is for any CIDR range.

    Q: But then I'm wasting CPU time and packet space whenever I'm running SSH or HTTPS

    Right. Userland can turn off OTCP using a sockopt if it wishes, or it could just not enable itself for the default destination ports which these protocols use. (Again, that would be an ugly intrusion of default port numbers into the kernel, but this idea wasn't that beautiful to begin with.)

    1. Re:Solved problem! by rootooftheworld · · Score: 1

      please marry me!!

      --
      I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
  24. default part of distro by spikenerd · · Score: 1

    The success of this all depends on whether the major distros will accept this as part of their core set of default packages. As long as everyone has to install it manually, it will always be an ineffective toy, but if a lot of servers start supporting it (which would only happen if it's a default), then there is incentive for the clients to use it, and in turn more incentive for servers to do it.

  25. FF2? by Mateo_LeFou · · Score: 1

    Not totally following your point. Looking "like it was written in C" is.. a bad thing?

    --
    My turnips listen for the soft cry of your love
    1. Re:FF2? by bsDaemon · · Score: 1

      I think that he's insinuating that IE8 is such a POS that it makes FF2 look super fast and stuff.

  26. Tor? by mnslinky · · Score: 1

    Isn't this called Tor? http://www.torproject.org/

  27. Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by argent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    You're complaining about shortcomings in implementation. That's a general problem with crypto... crypto geeks don't care about iser interfaces. RSA goes back to 1977, and we still don't have good PGP/GPG support in most email clients. The solution is not to invent a new protocol, it's to invent a new user interface that's compellingly easy. SSL is a pain in the neck... except when you're using it in a web browser it's almost invisible, and SSH bootstraps from it to make something that's much easier to set up than SSL telnet.

    Yes, Crypto Barbie, if TPB doesn't at least make it possible to use IPSEC as the encryption layer (whether they have a workaround for ISPs that block IPSEC or not) they're not part of the solution.

    1. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by LarsG · · Score: 1

      No, it is a shortcoming in spec. No amount of friendly user interface will fix the problem that the average home user does not control DNS for his IP.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    2. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by CharlieHedlin · · Score: 1

      So extend the spec with an alternative key exchange, but don't start over!

    3. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      No good RSA support was a result of government interference for years and export restrictions. By the time most of those were lifted, most companies had given up or implemented alternatives. There were some very good PGP support E-mail programs back in the day -- I think one was called Pegasus, with nice little lock symbols and a key manager even.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    4. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by argent · · Score: 1

      There were some very good PGP support E-mail programs

      Unless you could use it from Groupwise or Lotus or whatever so that EVERYONE could use it, it doesn't matter if there's some boutique standalone programs that support it.

    5. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by argent · · Score: 1

      I do not believe IPSEC requires working DNS, because I have set up IPSEC tunnels without it. You don't even need working DNS for key exchange.

    6. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by LarsG · · Score: 1

      The OP was under the impression that net-wide opportunistic encryption was already solved by ipsec oe (rfc 4322). I was merely pointing out the problem that rfc4322 requires end-user control of dns for key distribution.

      dns is obviously not the only way of distributing keys, ipsec itself does not depend on dns but the "solution" the OP mentioned does.

      --
      If J.K.R wrote Windows: Puteulanus fenestra mortalis!
    7. Re:Crypto Barbie: "IPSEC IS HARD" by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      I'm sorry, I missed the day that Groupwise and Lotus notes became the predominant personal E-mail programs of the day.

      As a matter of fact, yes, it does matter because IMAP E-mail is IMAP E-mail no matter where you are, and the fact we, the computer community, allowed major companies to sell us proprietary server systems that don't work as well is still beyond me.

      But hey, I'm still using mutt with PGP auto-signing at home on my IMAP servers, what do I know.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  28. How to encrypt? by clone_zealot · · Score: 1

    public key: pRon
    private key: RIAA

  29. Re: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I hope those "happy and fun loving" THIEVES (not Swedes) like jail.

  30. pirate want you... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    To install software they made...so they could hide illegal copyright violation softwares they stole?

    What makes anyone think this isn't just a new means to distribute a trojan to create a botnet with encrypted storage on YOUR pc?

    Oh sure...the article doesn't mention that...and they are law abiding kiddies that wouldn't do that ..right....

  31. This already exists by dalmiroy2k · · Score: 1

    This already exists; furthermore, it's been around for years. It's called Freenet: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freenet

    Here in Buenos Aires, Argentina I use a local version:
    http://www.buenosaireslibre.org/

  32. answer two by aliquis · · Score: 3, Insightful

    Not to forget some people would probably argue that your general privacy and freedom to talk to others with no one listening is more important than file sharing.

    Some other people would probably not since those are the people which hopes to catch some bad guys using techniques such as this one and don't care about the breach of their own privacy since they have nothing to hide them self and trust everyone to be good.

  33. What about Anonet? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 3, Interesting

    There's a project called Anonet that has developed a similar wrapper infrastructure.

    Anonet is a "virtual Internet" that utilizes OpenVPN and Quagga to provide a layer of anonymity and deniability on top of the Internet. It uses a chaotic yet cooperative routing scheme which allows any one to use any IP address while still maintaining their existing Internet connection.

    It has everything on it that the Internet does: torrent trackers, web servers, FTP servers, DNS infrastructure, PGP keyservers, IM, IRC, streaming audio, game severs, etc. All Internet-aware applications should work fine as Anonet is simply an addition to your operating system's routing table.

    1. Re:What about Anonet? by e4g4 · · Score: 2, Funny

      Anonet...Anonet ...Anonet

      Anonet

      Just in case someone missed the first three ;-)

      --
      The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources. - Albert Einstein
  34. Useless by nenya · · Score: 1

    This will have approximately zero benefits. As many users have already pointed out, such a system is still vulnerable to interception, and if you think the NSA will have trouble cracking commercial encryption, you're just wrong. But more to the point, whether or not traffic is encrypted really doesn't matter. ISPs are perfectly capable of filtering and suppressing traffic without any idea of the content of the packets in question simply by analyzing the pattern of traffic. For example, a BitTorrent connection can be pretty easily recognized by looking for activity on certain ports. But even if you switch ports, the large number of incoming/outgoing connections is a dead giveaway. You don't need to know exactly what's in the TCP packet to know that the IP traffic looks like a BitTorrent (or VoIP, or streaming video, or what have you) connection. And you can't encrypt IP headers or your ISP won't be able to route the traffic at all. There really isn't a technical solution for this as far as I can tell. It's whack-a-mole at best. The real solution is regulation, but exactly what kind of regulation is still very much up in the air.

  35. /b/? by BenEnglishAtHome · · Score: 1

    I not only knew what you were tallking about but passed over it and started reading the next comment without a stutter. A few seconds passed. Then I cringed and wondered "What have I become?"

    Thanks a lot for shaking me to the core. Nice way to start the day. :-(

  36. Its needed by Mick+Malkemus · · Score: 4, Insightful

    If we don't start encrypting our activities on the Net, be prepared for increased government intervention in everything we do. Here in Latvia, if you are caught with one illegal song, your entire computer is confiscated. Encryption makes sense.

  37. What about GNUnet? by DrMorris · · Score: 1

    This projects has been worked on for years now. I never read their papers, so I can't comment on the technical side, but they surely designed it for decentralization and anonymity:
    http://gnunet.org/

    1. Re:What about GNUnet? by Per+Wigren · · Score: 1

      GnuNET is a cool anonymous searchable distributed storage pool but it's nothing like what the article describes. The projects aren't even remotely similar.

      --
      My other account has a 3-digit UID.
    2. Re:What about GNUnet? by DrMorris · · Score: 1

      I know... I just wanted to make a note about "alternative" P2P approaches. I really wonder why they never took off. Maybe people need even more motivation from the government(s) to realize that this (or some encrypting all traffic project) is the way to go.

  38. TOR != encryption by xalorous · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Please don't blindly use TOR for P2P. You'll bring TOR to its knees. TOR is supported by volunteers and isn't designed for the massive load P2P would put on it. Plus, TOR only provides anonymity at the destination, and it only hides your IP. TOR does not provide encryption. Snooping at your ISP would still show all packets in the clear.

    --
    TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
    1. Re:TOR != encryption by chihowa · · Score: 5, Informative
      Tor provides anonymity at the source, too. Your first hop is encrypted from you to the Tor network. Your ISP only sees that you are using Tor, not to whom you are connecting. The last hop's ISP can see your traffic in the clear, though. If there's identifying (or secret) information it is vulnerable at the last hop.

      But you're right, Tor is an anonymizing network, it's not end-to-end encryption.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    2. Re:TOR != encryption by Phroon · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Tor is an anonymizing network, it's not end-to-end encryption.

      With the use of Hidden services, it is. If you connect to a Hidden service on Tor, the last hop in the Tor network is to the server your connecting to and it is end-to-end encrypted.

      Tracker data and .torrent transfer would be good uses for this channel, but not the raw data. I'm surprised TPB doesn't have it already set up.

    3. Re:TOR != encryption by chihowa · · Score: 1

      Tor is an anonymizing network, it's not end-to-end encryption.

      With the use of Hidden services, it is. If you connect to a Hidden service on Tor, the last hop in the Tor network is to the server your connecting to and it is end-to-end encrypted. Tracker data and .torrent transfer would be good uses for this channel, but not the raw data. I'm surprised TPB doesn't have it already set up.

      Too true! Tracker data and .torrent files aren't illegal (for how long?), though, so hosting them isn't a big deal. The *AA/whoever can still connect to the tracker and get the IP addresses of the swarm, which is what you'd want to hide.

      --
      If you want a vision of the future, imagine a youtube comments section scrolling - forever.
    4. Re:TOR != encryption by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      can't stop everyone, don't like it? run an exit node and stfu

    5. Re:TOR != encryption by jawahar · · Score: 1

      I agree. I think encryption should be provided at Bittorrent level.

    6. Re:TOR != encryption by JoelKatz · · Score: 1

      TOR is great if you know who you need to hide from. It's not so good when you don't want *anyone* to get your data.

      Porn from work? TOR is great. Hiding the contents of an email from your ISP? TOR is great. Accessing a web site whose owners you don't want to know who is accessing it? TOR is great.

      Sending something you don't want published in the New York Times? TOR is useless.

    7. Re:TOR != encryption by xalorous · · Score: 1

      TOR is still not encrypting anything. Anonymization means that you can't tell the real original IP address where the packet came from. Without some sort of encryption, all of the data is still transferred in the clear.

      My point was, and remains, that you can't have secure transfer with anonmyization alone. You need encryption as well.

      And instructions exist for setting up some bittorrent clients to use TOR for trackers. It would definitely be a good idea to use it for the .torrent file itself.

      For private, secure Internet communications, you need to encrypt the data before putting it on the wire. You would need to encapsulate the data, encrypt it, encapsulate the destination, encrypt again. Transfer to the anonymizing network where the outer layer is decrypted. Do some network address translation type operation so that the anonymizer knows the response and encapsulate that information (probably NAT or PAT type operation). Optional encryption step. Then to the destination network where the data is extracted. As long as all the methodology is agreed upon, this type of scheme would be secure. The problems include getting everyone to agree on protocols and setting up the anonymizers in the middle. The protocols would not be lightweight, and assuming that the primary customers are bittorrent customers, the overall throughput would be absolutely staggering.

      For 1000 customers, if they average a gig a day, that's a terabyte per day throughput, PLUS overhead.

      --
      TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
  39. Server sharing or multiple servers by DrYak · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Of course, I could just go to that site's web site and see what they advertise, assuming that most people are going there for that purpose. If I'm sniffing the user's connection at their ISP, I could also see if they're connecting to 10-20 other user sites simultaneously, which would look a lot like bittorrent.

    But that workaround doesn't account for :

    - Hosting service that host several web sites on a single server, thus all sharing the same IP but answering to different DNS names in the HTTP request. It happens a lot, almost any of the cheap hosting service works that way.
    => You'll get multiple connections anyway, and there's no single website to check for advertised content.

    - Although there *are* bittorrent trackers written in PHP, there are a lot of people using a simple web server for the website and indexing only and running the tracker on a separate machine.
    In that case there won't be anything to check on the same IP address, the website has a different address compared to the tracker.

    --
    "Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
  40. Re:Yeah, you missed NOT FUCKING STEALING by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Funny

    It's called infridgemnet not stealding you mororn.

  41. Man in the Middle solution exists by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    That's why they should base it on OpenPGP. Allow (no: encourage) people to share fingerprints out-of-band. Encourage people to cert identities where that out-of-band communication has happened, then WoT from there.

    TPB's weirdo agenda (piracy) is just a tiny part of the world's overall need for secure communications. If they build on the existing OpenPGP WoT, then they gain from everyone else's efforts along these lines, as well as contribute to that effort.

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  42. You all are forgetting by iminplaya · · Score: 2, Interesting

    You are still dependent on BIGCO's wire for your internet access. If the ISP wants to spy on you and they can't read the packets, they will simply drop them. What are you going to do about that? Switching ISPs is not an option when they all engage in the same behavior. So, c'mon, cough it up. What's your solution now?

    --
    What?
    1. Re:You all are forgetting by rootooftheworld · · Score: 1

      roofnet free ISP. Are you retarded, or just stupid?

      --
      I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
    2. Re:You all are forgetting by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      Oh my! Why didn't I think of something like that? I wonder how tall my roof has to be to chat with my friends on the Islands. Or how resistant it will be to jamming.

      --
      What?
    3. Re:You all are forgetting by rootooftheworld · · Score: 1

      directional antenna. damn powerfull (read illigal) amplifier. would that suffice, your Majesty?

      --
      I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
    4. Re:You all are forgetting by iminplaya · · Score: 1

      It would, if it wasn't for that small issue of line of sight. It's fairly difficult to get those frequencies to pass through the planet, or bounce off the ionosphere. Besides, I would like to keep my electric bill to a reasonable level.

      --
      What?
  43. Why encrypt? by slughead · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Why encrypt pirate traffic?

    AFAIK, they "get you" by joining the network as a peer and then writing down all the IPs that send them pieces of the torrent.

    I don't think they do it by monitoring network traffic--that would be a pain in the butt.

    It's not hard to gain access to many of these networks, and their real goal is just to slow piracy (stopping it is a little far out). All they really need to do to slow it is start suing users and the rest will run scared, like they did with Kazaa et al. Real pirates will go underground, for sure, but they wont have as much of an impact on sales as say, Napster.

    1. Re:Why encrypt? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      No, they get your information as you specified. That doesn't get them a conviction though.

      A conviction SHOULD require proof that you actually DID something illegal. That would require knowing what was in those packets.

      Last I checked, my BitTorrent downloads are primarily Linux ISOs -- can't wait to get busted for those.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
    2. Re:Why encrypt? by joleran · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Because the serious pirating networks are very much personal-friend invite-only. The only way to break a group like that, other than from the inside by a betrayal, is if they didn't use encryption. The stream of information goes from crack group, FXP to scene release, ultra-private trackers (as above), private trackers (invite only, more lax on how they let users invite), semi-private (registration required), and public.

    3. Re:Why encrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It depends. US law, its reasonable doubt for a criminal conviction. However, the *AA uses civil litigation, where the proof is "was this guy more likely to have done this act than not have, given the evidence provided", which is significantly less than what it takes for a criminal case.

      This is why, just an IP connecting to a share is considered evidence enough for a successful court case.

    4. Re:Why encrypt? by nexuspal · · Score: 2, Interesting

      There are other routes as well, such as crack group-->FXP to scene release-->Other Routes...

      --
      I've read Slashdot for the last 5 years, and now I start posting... Go figure :-P
    5. Re:Why encrypt? by joleran · · Score: 1
      I was trying to point out the general hierarchy, but it looks like it came out as a direct path due to my poor choice of wording.

      You are absolutely correct, and scene releases come out as pirate DVD's actually sold for money, on anonymous FTP sites, IRC channels, direct trading of files through AIM and the like, and even the now rare direct HTTP server.

    6. Re:Why encrypt? by Omestes · · Score: 1

      All they really need to do to slow it is start suing users and the rest will run scared, like they did with Kazaa et al. Real pirates will go underground, for sure, but they wont have as much of an impact on sales as say, Napster.

      I rather doubt that this will happen. When Napster got killed, all the kids moved to Kazaa, and when that started getting fishy they moved on to BT and directly hosted goods (Rapidshare, and Megaupload). I seriously doubt that there has ever been a drop in the file sharing community (pirates). When I was in college (piracy Mecca), I never met one person who was actually frightened of piracy because of the actions of the **AA. The ones who were used rather untraceable means such as OurTunes and local DC++ networks.

      If the **AAs destroy BT, with a combination of ISP cooperation and bought legislators, something else will pop up, like it always has. Perhaps things will move towards more direct downloads, which is actually more convenient than BT for small files (such as albums), and generally concentrates the blame on one person, since downloading still is a gray area. If that person is in a place with looser piracy laws, then it is a risk free method.

      It would be a shame though, since BT is a generally useful idea for many things outside of piracy (Linux distros, patching, etc...).

      I stopped my piracy activities after college, so there might be something in the works right now. Like many things this game is ruled by adaptive evolution, whenever the anti crowd advances, the pro crowd gets more sophisticated.

      --
      A patriot must always be ready to defend his country against his government. -edward abbey
    7. Re:Why encrypt? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      >I don't think they do it by monitoring network traffic--that would be a pain in the butt.

      Only it doesn't work like that, supposing 'they' means the ISP, since the burden of policing the users is regulary put on them, how would the ISP go about finding specific torrents a significant number of their own users would connect to? IOW the ISP would have to keep hundreds if not thousands of torrent open to find a significant number of users. It makes a lot more sense for an ISP to monitor the traffic that's going through their network anyway.

    8. Re:Why encrypt? by Mia'cova · · Score: 1

      They're doing this in response to an invasive wire-tapping law that applies to all traffic. This has nothing to do with piracy. This is about the government watching and logging everything you do without you ever knowing. Some people (imho, rightly) dislike living in a police state.

    9. Re:Why encrypt? by tirnacopu · · Score: 1

      The key word would be "primarily". It doesn't matter at all if you download 2TBytes of Linux, that one 500KByte audio file is what makes you guilty in the eyes of law.

    10. Re:Why encrypt? by MikeBabcock · · Score: 1

      You validated my point for me though -- conviction should require knowing the contents of the packets. No music, no movies, no Copyrighted works in general, no conviction. The use of Torrents or a Torrent server is not enough.

      --
      - Michael T. Babcock (Yes, I blog)
  44. Our Governments helped us by Sloppy · · Score: 1

    Interception has been a looming threat all along. Most people just didn't take it seriously, so we didn't do anything about it. Now we have a credible bogeyman, and the job is finally going to get done.

    For once: thank you, government. You gave us the motivating fear, without which, we only had rational thought (which wasn't enough).

    --
    As copyright owner of this comment, I authorize everyone to defeat any technological measure which limits access to it.
  45. Freenet? by punkrocher · · Score: 2

    What about freenet?

    --
    I can stand brute force, but brute reason is quite unbearable. There is something unfair about its use. It is hitting be
  46. Re:Yeah, you missed NOT FUCKING STEALING by Tubal-Cain · · Score: 1

    It's not moran it's "insidious claude"

  47. IPsec vs. SSL by Weezul · · Score: 1

    I see two routes :
    - add SSL support to all applications.
    - develop a "dynamic" version of IPsec

    As I understand it, IPsec means your computer will use unencrypted connections except when accessing an IP address in some range covered by IPsec. So one wishs to configure IPsec dynamically, but this isn't so easy since the connections must be established quickly, both to encrypted & unencrypted machines.

    So my suggestion forget about a complete solution. Instead focus on increasing the quantity of encrypted traffic.
    - convince companies handling private information, like facebook, to support both SSL and IPSec, thus increasing the SSL traffic on the internet.
    - Move all p2p apps to SSL.
    - Add dynamic updating of IPsec ranges from some open registry.

    --
    The Christian religion has been and still is the principal enemy of moral progress in the world. -- Bertrand Russell
  48. John Gilmore already tried this by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

    John Gilmore already pushed for this to happen. Didn't get enough traction. However, maybe he didn't have a good enough threat model? Maybe now there is one? Here's John's URL:
    http://www.toad.com/swan.html

    --
    Don't piss off The Angry Economist
    1. Re:John Gilmore already tried this by Russ+Nelson · · Score: 1

      Oh, and as I recall, the project foundered on not having a working DNSSEC.

      --
      Don't piss off The Angry Economist
  49. IPv6 and IPsec by c_g_hills · · Score: 3, Informative

    This is yet another problem solved with IPv6, for which IPsec support is mandatory. RFC 4025 provides a method for opportunistic encryption between hosts using keys stored in DNS (type "IPSECKEY").

    The implementation is simple:- when initiating a connection, look up the IPsec key of the destination using the IPSECKEY record of the destination address in the reverse dns zone (ip6.arpa).

    I think Sweden's law is actually a good thing. The more governments and/or companies that are snooping on internet traffic, the more encouragement it provides for people to use encryption.

    1. Re:IPv6 and IPsec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      IP6 isn't going to work.

      It has no encryption as standard, just random options people can slapdash bolt on, each not compatible with the other.

      It doesn't support VPNs or NATs, which is in its design. This means someone out in a foreign country can probe each and every machine on any local network unless the admin resorts to hacks like tunneling traffic over V4 NAT boxes.

      You change ISPs, and you then have to re-IP your whole network, because your IP range is solely dependent on your upstream, and leaves one vulnerable to attacks. All your ISP has to do is change its reported IP addresses, and your whole network shuts down until manually reconfigured, even if you have peers and other routes in/out.

      IPv6 is designed for easy tracking of users to geographic locations, not designed for security of its users by any means.

      IPv6 stacks are unproven, and likely easy to be hit by buffer overruns.

    2. Re:IPv6 and IPsec by JesseMcDonald · · Score: 1

      RFC 4025 provides a method for opportunistic encryption between hosts using keys stored in DNS (type "IPSECKEY").

      Which is great, provided you have a static IP address and control over its reverse DNS entry. It doesn't really help the majority of Internet users with dynamic addresses and ISP-controlled DNS.

      --
      "The state is that great fiction by which everyone tries to live at the expense of everyone else." - Bastiat
    3. Re:IPv6 and IPsec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I think Sweden's law is actually a good thing. The more governments and/or companies that are snooping on internet traffic, the more encouragement it provides for people to use encryption.

      FYI the broken window theory of economics has been refuted a century or two ago.

    4. Re:IPv6 and IPsec by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Errr, ever hear the word firewall? Idiot.

  50. Plus, IPsec and IKE just *suck*, by design by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

    The IPsec RFCs were the most overly-complicated, vaguely/badly written standards docs ever, resulting in IPsec implementations that were all bloaty, incompatible pieces of sh*t on every OS that tried to do it. (I worked on an IPsec implementation, so I know firsthand).

    Horrible protocols, designed by committee, extended by big early adopters in ways that totally made any latercomer's implementation a living nightmare (looking at *you*, Cisco and MS).

    Hell, the standards didn't even specify adequately how connections should be renewed, so everyone just does it differently. You might be able to connect to an alien IPsec endpoint, but good freaking luck trying to get the connection to renew properly when both ends don't make the same assumptions. Don't even bother asking about using certificates between different vendors' stacks, the lab that does interoperability testing just laughs at the whole situation.

    SSH tunnelling (or even openVPN) ends up being so much easier it's just not worth even looking at IPsec.

    It was so bad they started working on IKEv2 before anyone even had significant success with IKEv1. Bleah.

  51. Not useful for publically available sites? by autophile · · Score: 1

    I get how this is useful for traffic between two private parties. But if one party is supposed to be publically available, e.g. a site that hosts torrent pointers, then how exactly does encryption AFTER that help? You pull on the string that's showing, the whole sweater unravels.

    --
    Towards the Singularity.
  52. Government out of control. by suck_burners_rice · · Score: 1

    There should, no, there MUST be an option to prevent it from falling back on an unencrypted connection. Failure to implement this means you may as well not have encryption at all, since you never know if it's encrypted or not. The EFF needs your donations so it can go all over the world and fight to repeal laws allowing government idiots to snoop on communications, and to create laws that make it illegal to snoop or to create laws that allow such snooping. Governments all over the world are out of control.

    --
    McCain/Palin '08. Now THAT's hope and change!
  53. And? by nobodymk2 · · Score: 1

    From what I've seen the only need to know you've been sending torrent pieces to other clients and this is visible on your IP address. The encryption would do nothing as officials (or MAFIAA for that matter) could simply start the torrent and see what IP addresses seed the torrent to them. Passworded files are already bad enough in terms of longevity and security, the passwords will become lost as sites disappear from free hosting sites for basic policy violation or other reasons, and the password is listed in plain text, which is indexed by say, Google. I have found the password to stuff I downloaded from isohunt with google (isohunt usually lacks documentation to their files for some reason and if I don't remember the exact one or the website link is broken there's not many other ways to find it), I don't see how encryption will make any difference. Remember that ISPs and the government (well, except in Sweden) are not the persons filing the lawsuits (and ISPs fact are more than likely to receive them merely for having it on their network).

  54. Just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents by Captain_Red · · Score: 1

    Some encyrption would be nice. I'm really tired of the throttling of content even if it's legal. I recently discovered when downloading some legal torrents (New NIN album - distributed free online by NIN)that it appears Time Warner Cable is throttling Torrent traffic. Any time I attempted to DL the album my HTTP: traffic slowed to an absolute craw (5KPS or slower). Rebooted the cable modem, back up to "Turbo" speed while surfing. Start up torrent client. Instant crawl. Rebooted cable modem. Speed back to normal, until torrent traffic was recognized. What a PITA!

    --
    ~I Remain~ ~Captain Red~
  55. GO PIRATE BAY!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The internet should remain free. Free of government intervention. Personal responsibility should abound and caution, restraint and liberty should be the corner stones.

    This is the idea, the dream and the right of all people, whether in reality or cyberspace.

    1. Re:GO PIRATE BAY!!! by rootooftheworld · · Score: 1

      attention all /.ers, the mods have been brainwashed by the MAFIAA. Please re-establish another slashdot in zimbabwe immediatly.

      --
      I know full well that tobacco is bad for you, so I smoke weed with crack
  56. Catchy name for it by nsayer · · Score: 1

    I propose they call it the Secure Socket Layer.

  57. anonymous by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    wait...didn't hacktivismo already embark on such a thing....six-four....which basically got absorbed by tor(onion routers)? What's wrong with onion routers, other than the fact that they're slow to resolve connections?

  58. You're completely wrong. TOR provides encryption! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    TOR does not provide encryption. Snooping at your ISP would still show all packets in the clear.

    TOR does provide encryption. The only way to see the unencrypted traffic would be to sniff the traffic as it leaves the tor exit node. Sniffing your tor traffic at the ISP wouldn't show anything but an encrypted data stream. Look it up:

    http://www.torproject.org/overview.html.en

    The number of posts that were modded up after stating that TOR doesn't provide encryption is absolutely mind boggling. Does anyone here even care how TOR works, or is just sounding like an authority good enough to get you a +5 Insightful no matter how off base your statements are? Christ. I'm disappointed in you slashdot mods.

  59. Lead by example by Fryth · · Score: 1

    Just set up https: and be done with it. If more websites did this, you'd have the same effect, and most people only visit 8-9 sites throughout the course of a normal day anyway.

  60. But can P2P == TOR? by ObsessiveMathsFreak · · Score: 1

    In my opinion, one of the big coups waiting to happen on the internet is the co-opting of P2P clients into the TOR network. The big Bittorrent clients already offer a TOR client mode option. But what would happen if they started offering a TOR client/server option instead. We could see a vast increase in the size, and hopefully speed of the TOR network overnight. That is if any of the big Bittorrent clients were willing to pull it off.

    --
    May the Maths Be with you!
  61. Internet 1.0 by Baseclass · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I use Tor occasionally for political rhetoric because I don't want to be seen as a dissident and end up on some government watchlist. There are also anonymous proxy servers which are often backdoored and darknets such as Freenet that seem to be fairly secure but slower than molasses.
     
    I wouldn't mind seeing another player on the scene with some fresh ideas and maybe even mainstream support.
     
    I've been using the internet for 2 decades and I've watched it morph from the geek sector to explosive innovation (my favorite period) to the current commercial state. Big business largely controls the content now.
    Although I'm certainly glad I can bank and do business on the internet, I think something like this could help us bring the power back. I for one don't trust the government or their corporate bedfellows.

    --
    ^^vv<><>BA
  62. An important distinction. by crhylove · · Score: 1

    It's important with these kind of topics to discuss the difference between illegal and immoral. Part of the whole PROBLEM is that so much that is NOT immoral is illegal. I think that ALL information should be free (and I'm a musician!), and that includes all media, software, and the like. There are historically many great minds that also feel this way and frankly diminish me both in their eloquence and lucidity on the subject. My personal favorite is probably Benjamin Franklin:

    "As we enjoy great advantages from the inventions of others, we should be glad of an opportunity to serve others by any invention of ours; and this we should do freely and generously."

    I would argue that all media, software, or anything else that can be transferred as 1s and 0s would qualify as an "invention" in modern terms.

    And for that reason, I use TOR, and just about any other tool possible to protect myself legally, as I feel very confident on moral grounds. Furthermore, I strongly advocate civil disobedience in a society where our "free" market has been completely overrun by corporate monopolies and the government is now owned outright by those same monopolies.

    What needs to happen now is that TOR and other technologies like the discussed Pirate Bay one night to be improved, used more widely, and made more robust. Frankly, I'd prefer a global ad hoc wifi network running fully encrypted and fully p2p for all data.

    Putting the genie back in the bottle of content control and pay for play is never going to happen anyway, no matter where you stand morally or legally on the issue. So really this whole discussion is moot. However, we should clearly outline the moral issues (and listen to greater minds like Franklin) for other reasons moving forward in the future.

    --
    I hold very few opinions. I hold information based on observation and fact. If you wish to disagree, please use facts.
  63. I like it! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I want it! Not just for THAT kind of activity but all possible activity. Why signal the Man that your are doing crime but only encrypting when you are doing crime? Let a million law abiders help protect all of our privacy.

  64. Re:You're completely wrong. TOR provides encryptio by xalorous · · Score: 1

    I stand corrected. I just read the overview link posted by AC. So, the encryption is there.

    The whole process is too expensive for full network encryption though. And my original point is that TOR shouldn't be overloaded with P2P. It is abusive of the network and could potentially cause legal issues for TOR which might interfere with their ability to offer their legitimate services.

    --
    TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
  65. I stand corrected. by xalorous · · Score: 1

    TOR does encrypt the data in transit, except the last hop from the router network to the destination.

    --
    TANSTAAFL GIGO Acronyms to live by!
  66. Encryption prevents Orwellian police from spying by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    You are all failing to see the value of this. It prevents the NSA from spying on the people. It's the people who are the innocent ones. The global elite want to implement a global police state. This encryption prevents the Orwellian police from spying on the people and crushing dissent.