Slashdot Mirror


Apple Files Suit Against Psystar

Reader The other A.N. Other, among others, alerts us to the news that Apple has filed suit against Psystar, the unauthorized clonemaker. (We've been discussing Psystar from the start.) The suit alleges violation of Apple's shrink wrap license and trademarks, and also copyright infringement. News of the lawsuit, filed on July 3, first surfaced on a legal blog. There's speculation that the case has been sealed.

127 of 805 comments (clear)

  1. It's mildly shocking... by adder · · Score: 5, Interesting

    ...that it took Apple this long to get the legal ball rolling on this!

    1. Re:It's mildly shocking... by tulmad · · Score: 4, Insightful

      I was thinking the same thing, but Apple might have waited until they were sure they could win the suit.

      --
      "In case of emergency, break glass. Scream. Bleed to death."
    2. Re:It's mildly shocking... by morgan_greywolf · · Score: 2, Insightful

      How so? Apple has probably had its legal department looking at this from day one. They also knew that they'd have to wait some period of time so as to not seem overly litigious -- after all, Apple positions its product as 'different' and itself as a 'different kind of company'.

      In any respect, they had to have time to examine Psystar and the clones and then to formulate their legal strategy. Sound legal strategies are not often created overnight.

    3. Re:It's mildly shocking... by east+coast · · Score: 4, Interesting

      I was thinking the same thing, but Apple might have waited until they were sure they could win the suit.

      Or had to.

      Had this clone company flopped Apple could have walked away without ever lifting a finger. Now Steve Jobs has to pull the same kind of antics that Microsoft was endlessly bashed for.

      After all, Apple likes to play it off like the cool slacker who has everything just work out in the end. It's going to look bad if they need to kick some ass to keep their coveted spot in the home computing world. It's going to make for a great Mac Vs. PC commercial, I'm sure.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    4. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

      Now Steve Jobs has to pull the same kind of antics that Microsoft was endlessly bashed for.

      Really? When has Microsoft ever engaged in these sorts of tactics? You're welcome to sell any computer you want that has Windows on it, as long as you hand over the Windows license with the computer.

    5. Re:It's mildly shocking... by east+coast · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "Coveted spot in the home computing world?" Care to expand on that?

      Do I really have to? Seriously?

      Let's face some real facts about Apple. Their spot in the home computing world comes largely from the cool facade that they've, literally, built for themselves. Apple has gone well out of it's way to force an image on the public. This image works for them because it appeals to people who think that computing is somehow not "fun" if it's not done on an Apple. Their commercials are some of the biggest misrepresentations of technology this side of Comcast it's not even funny. They've created fake problems for the consumer public to laugh about in an attempt to sway them from the PC/MS market.

      Or do you think that those commercials are an accurate display of the Mac vs. PC world? If you do than you've been fooled by one of the great showmen of our times.

      --
      Dedicated Cthulhu Cultist since 4523 BC.
    6. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Pontiac · · Score: 2, Informative

      Well getting damages in a copyright case does equire trying to mitigate damages..
      They may have spent the time trying to the company to comply or get a licensing agreement worked out.
      Apple's case will go much smoother if they can show they tried to settle the issue before moving to legal options.

      --
      If you think it's expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur. --Red Adair
    7. Re:It's mildly shocking... by aitikin · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They also knew that they'd have to wait some period of time so as to not seem overly litigious...

      Yeah, because Apple never sues anyone.

      Seriously, just Google "Apple Sues" and you'll find about eight million hits.

      --
      "Don't meddle in the affairs of a patent dragon, for thou art tasty and good with ketchup." ~ohcrapitssteve
    8. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Enderandrew · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Apple is the same company who has repeatedly sent threatening legal letters to teenage bloggers and such. They also clearly violated their deal with Apple records, and then went on the legal offensive like they were victims.

      Apple certainly isn't afraid to use their lawyers. My guess is that they wanted Pystar to make some profits to the lawsuit would make financial sense.

      --
      http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    9. Re:It's mildly shocking... by cbreaker · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Apple has done worse in their day. They're more ruthless than most corporations when it comes to things like this.

      Somehow, it seems to go unnoticed..

      I guess people forgot how they squashed the Mac clone market a decade ago by deciding to no longer license the ROM needed to run MacOS and thus putting many OEM companies out of business in one fell swoop.

      --
      - It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
    10. Re:It's mildly shocking... by revscat · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it's all marketing then why does Apple have the highest consumer satisfaction rates in the entire industry?

      If their products were crap, or even equivalent, consumers would not speak so highly of them, for so long after their purchases.

    11. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Funny

      That is precisely why it's a good thing you don't have mod points.

    12. Re:It's mildly shocking... by mabhatter654 · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Unless you try to Dual-Boot with BeOS... for free.. then their OEM EULA prohibits them from putting non-windows OSes in the boot screen or even SHOWING the user an icon to set up dual booting. That's what Fujitsu and Toshiba found out when BeOS wanted to be put on systems for free... and why no major player will sell dual-boot systems with the Linux pre-installed.

      "You're welcome to sell any computer you want that has Windows on it, as long as you hand over the Windows license with the computer."

      Correction If you sell Windows, you're ONLY allowed to sell Windows or even advertise Windows on those machines. (see above) You can sell machines with other OSes, but Microsoft want's (wanted) license fees for EVERY computer you sold (until it was declared illegal). So Microsoft is much WORSE... After all, only Apple sells Macs, they are not compelling any other company to do their bidding.

    13. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Schlage · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Althought the previous post didn't put it in the most objective manner, I hardly think that the post should be modded "Flamebait." A bit direct, perhaps, and obviously writing from a very decided point of view, but I've seen much less objective and more objectionably phrased comments rated "Insightful" or "Informative." The bottom line is that whoever rated this "Flamebait" disagreed and wants the comment discredited. Too bad I don't have mod points right now.

      To avoid just commenting on someone else's rating, I have to say that I agree that much of what Apple sells with its Macintosh is the Apple 'mystique.' Jobs is a great marketer and a great packager of product, whether that packagin comes in the form of industrial design (iPod), eye-candy (much of the OS X interface), or the intangible psuedo-elitism of owning an Apple Macintosh.

      I don't have an axe to grind against Apple, I've used their products far longer than I have any of the IBM/Microsoft related lines (starting with the Apple II), but the parent is dead on when he labels Jobs as one of the great showmen of our times. And don't tell me that the Mac vs. PC ads are designed as fair, objective comparisons, because they're not, they're ads and they're meant to persuade people to buy Macs and regard the Apple brand well, pure and simple.

    14. Re:It's mildly shocking... by I'm+not+really+here · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Because they remove any reference to negative comments, ignore upset customers, and generally sweep it all under the rug. Don't get me wrong, I like a good Mac, but their willingness to admit to being wrong or to having build buggy code is really non-existent.

      --
      Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
    15. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Fozzyuw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Or do you think that those commercials are an accurate display of the Mac vs. PC world?

      Define accuracy? I'm no Apple fan, but I do find their commercials to be "funny because it's true". Not "true" as in, always, but true as in we've all been there at some point or know someone who has.

      --
      "The past was erased, the erasure was forgotten, the lie became truth." ~1984 George Orwell
    16. Re:It's mildly shocking... by m0rph3us0 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Because their products are highly targeted and because most of what they are selling is branding. Tiger has similarly annoying issues as Vista. I had a mac laptop for about 2 years and I found that I spent 70% of my time in Parallels using Server 2003.

      If a gamer bought a Mac he would be highly unsatisfied as it doesn't play games. Apple doesn't have to, nor does a lot of things Windows does.

    17. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Raineer · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And everyone knows IBM *SHOULD* have done the same, why does Apple get lambasted for it...just because people don't like Stevie?

    18. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Insightful

      You can't discuss consumer satisfaction rates without discussing who the consumers are and what they want.

      You could argue that a sailing boat has higher consumer satisfaction rates than a submarine and conclude that the sailing boat is the more advanced product.

    19. Re:It's mildly shocking... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Now Steve Jobs has to pull the same kind of antics that Microsoft was endlessly bashed for.

      MS is mostly bashed for their illegal business practices, especially antitrust abuse. Apple enforcing onerous terms of the license for a product they own the copyright on is something else entirely. Sadly, from what I can see the best thing for consumers (who want OS X) that can come out of this is Pystar losing. Otherwise, Apple will become more like MS, being forced to add DRM and license keys to restrict installation, which will suck for those of us who prefer not messing with that crap.

    20. Re:It's mildly shocking... by kellyb9 · · Score: 4, Funny

      Cause Apple's a cult and you have to swear your undying alliegance to them upon purchasing their machines? I don't know... but that's my guess. Kinda like scientology if you ask me.

    21. Re:It's mildly shocking... by revscat · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So it's a conspiracy. All those 3rd party market survey companies, they're in on the whole thing.

      Ok then. Can't argue with that

    22. Re:It's mildly shocking... by lurch_mojoff · · Score: 2, Funny

      Apple is the same company who has repeatedly sent threatening legal letters to teenage bloggers and such. They also clearly violated their deal with Apple records, and then went on the legal offensive like they were victims.

      Apple certainly isn't afraid to use their lawyers. My guess is that they wanted Pystar to make some profits to the lawsuit would make financial sense.

      [citation needed]

    23. Re:It's mildly shocking... by nine-times · · Score: 2, Insightful

      They've created fake problems for the consumer public to laugh about in an attempt to sway them from the PC/MS market.

      If the problems were fake, why would people laugh about those problems? For example, if they made a commercial about how Windows machines were awful because they didn't have enough programs/peripherals available, people wouldn't laugh along with the commercial. If anything, they'd laugh *at* the commercial because it would be nonsense, and the ad wouldn't work.

      But make an ad about how overzealous UAC is in Vista, and you'll get a chuckle out of people. It's funny because it's true.

      Apple has extremely high customer loyalty because they're focussed primarily on the "user experience". When you take a step back and look at how poorly most hardware/software is designed, it's easy to poke fun. Hell, you could poke fun at some of Apple's design choices if you wanted to ("If I wanted roasted nuts, I would have bought some Planters peanuts, not a laptop!" badum-ching!). But you can't reasonably say Apple is "creating fake problems".

    24. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Crizp · · Score: 3, Insightful

      I think the rating comes from the excellent support department they have, worldwide, which they can afford due to their high markup on items. Apple products are more expensive for a reason, not just because they can.

    25. Re:It's mildly shocking... by alvinrod · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I don't think they're really after any money that Pystar may have made from their sales. Sure they'll sue Pystar for tens of millions of dollars, but I don't think it's really about that. To Apple their brand image is worth more to them than any small amount of money that Pystar has possibly made over the last few months.

      My best guess is that the only reason that they took this long is that they were curious to see exactly how many units Pystar could ship over a certain period of time. The sales data would obviously be brought up during the trial so that Apple could "determine potential losses" to determine how much they should get from the lawsuit.

      This sales data gives them so insight into how a similarly configured Mac computer would do in the market without having to actually spend the time designing one or marketing it. The only fees they incur are legal fees, but they're already paying their lawyers just to be there, regardless if they're wasting time on stupid court cases or not. Or perhaps they're interested in gauging how much interest there would be in licensing their OS (not that they ever would, but they might just be curious in having that information) to a generic PC vendor.

      Unless their legal team was overly busy back when Pystar first opened shop, I can't think of any other good reason for them taking so long to take legal action other than having a passive interest in how the results of their business would turn out. They let them run free for long enough to get some good data, but now they're blowing the whistle and probably going to put the company out of business since they probably don't want everyone and their grandmother setting up something similar.

    26. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Draek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Because people don't feel as bad when they feel they've wasted $10 than when they feel they've wasted $1000, so of course Apple consumers won't admit to their dissatisfaction as easily as, say, Dell customers. Yes, even to themselves.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    27. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Midnight+Thunder · · Score: 5, Informative

      I guess people forgot how they squashed the Mac clone market a decade ago by deciding to no longer license the ROM needed to run MacOS and thus putting many OEM companies out of business in one fell swoop.

      I guess you forgot that the clone makers agreed not to go after Apple's market and invariably did. Apple's intention to allow clones was to expand where it couldn't, yet instead of expanding they went after what little of the market Apple had. After having being burnt last time, I am not sure that Apple wants to go through that again.

      --
      Jumpstart the tartan drive.
    28. Re:It's mildly shocking... by D+Ninja · · Score: 5, Insightful

      If it's all marketing then why does Apple have the highest consumer satisfaction rates in the entire industry?

      If their products were crap, or even equivalent, consumers would not speak so highly of them, for so long after their purchases.

      So you would think. But, a couple things play against that.

      1. Customers *expect* that an Apple will be a different experience than, say, a Windows machine. As a result, they're expectations are already geared towards, "This is going to be a good experience." As a result, they are more likely to have a good experience.

      2. Face it - Apple products are expensive. Another psychological response that people have is that once they invest into something, they are more likely to stick with that something (and argue for that something) no matter how bad it is. So, it may be that someone spends $2000 on a new Mac, they have high expectations, they take it home and don't really like using it. However, they can't admit that because that means they made a bad decision. Hence...Macs are always awesome.

      I know it sounds stupid. I thought so too until I read through the studies and performed some of my own in my work.

      Never underestimate the power of someone to convince themselves of something if they don't want to be wrong or stupid.

    29. Re:It's mildly shocking... by UnknowingFool · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Their commercials are some of the biggest misrepresentations of technology this side of Comcast it's not even funny. They've created fake problems for the consumer public to laugh about in an attempt to sway them from the PC/MS market.

      All of them are fake problems? Which one of these is not a real problem:

      • Accident: PC in a body cast explains how his laptop got injured when someone tripped over his power cord. Mac points out new Apple notebooks have a magnetic quick release power cord.
      • Breakthrough: Mac and a counselor try to explain to PC that some of his Vista hardware compatibility issues are caused by having many different manufacturers and this is not his fault.
      • Choose a Vista: PC is confused about which of the 6 versions of Vista he should pick and has to use a wheel.
      • Computer Cart: Various PCs are plagued with cryptic error messages like "Fatal Error" and error "692".
      • Security: A bodyguard constantly asks PC to authorize every action he takes. References UAC.
      • Surgery: PC explains he might need some surgery (upgrades) in order to run Vista and is worried about it.
      • Trust Mac: PC in a eyeglasses and fake mustache tries to hide from spyware.
      • Viruses: PC is infected with a new virus and asks Mac to stay away.

      Sure some of them are a bit outlandish, but they are based some grain of truth otherwise they wouldn't be funny.

      --
      Well, there's spam egg sausage and spam, that's not got much spam in it.
    30. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Just+Some+Guy · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This image works for them because it appeals to people who think that computing is somehow not "fun" if it's not done on an Apple.

      You need to get out of the basement more. In the real world, Apple has lots of fans because their stuff works better than the alternatives for a lot of people. For example, my wife has no love for computers in general, but a whole lot of love for her 6 year old iMac. When it dies, nothing but another Mac will even be considered.

      She's seen my KDE desktop and thought it was pretty but too geeky. She hates Vista that came on a laptop we bought. Her Mac is just about perfect for her, though.

      Apparently Apple understands something about making people like their products that you do not.

      --
      Dewey, what part of this looks like authorities should be involved?
    31. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Gewalt · · Score: 4, Insightful

      +1 insightful *does not mean* "I agree with you"

      --
      Modding Trolls +1 inciteful since 1999
    32. Re:It's mildly shocking... by XorNand · · Score: 3, Interesting

      $4M might be a tax dodge. I might even be willing to consider $40M to be a tax dodge. But when you start talking tens of *billions*, I somehow doubt that taxes are even on Bill's mental radar. Oh, I'm sure he's aware of his tax liability in the abstract and has a team of accountants handling the details. But when you have enough money to literally change the world, your ambitions extend beyond trying to hide a few bucks from the government.

      --
      Entrepreneur : (noun), French for "unemployed"
    33. Re:It's mildly shocking... by nomadic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Computer Cart: Various PCs are plagued with cryptic error messages like "Fatal Error" and error "692".

      Because an anthropomorphic bomb is so much more informative.

      Choose a Vista: PC is confused about which of the 6 versions of Vista he should pick and has to use a wheel.

      Yes, "Home" and "Business" are such enigmatic choices.

      Surgery: PC explains he might need some surgery (upgrades) in order to run Vista and is worried about it.

      You are actually asserting that nobody ever had to upgrade a mac in order to use the latest operating system?

    34. Re:It's mildly shocking... by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Insightful

      My company is evaluating moving over to mac book pros. We have put 25 of them into use and are tracking their rate of hardware failure against the 200 Dell Latitudes we have in play. Guess what- the mac books experience hardware failures 6x as often. Its not like there is one mac mac book pro either, MOST of them have had issues, including replacements.

      Gee, funny how several different independent testing companies have completely the opposite results you do. Now who should I trust to accurately and impartially test equipment, Muadib or Consumer Reports... it's such a tough call.

      Dell has come a long way with their laptops over the last year, from below average to one of the most reliable. They still are below average for desktops. And Apple, well they've been at the top for relaibility rates for years now. Buying Apple hardware can be problematic since their selection is small compared to all the PC vendors combined and for end users you'll end up paying for features you don't want (or don't think you want anyway). That said, they make some of the most reliable hardware you can buy.

    35. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Interesting

      So you think Microsoft takes good care of all it's unsatisfied customers, do you?

      Where Apple has made a culture of people expecting a positive experience, and plays down the few (less than 3%) who have issues, Microsoft has spent a decade building a culture where people expect the issues, and don't complain simple because' well, it just sux anyway, and what choice do we have"

      They do admit failure, regularly. They just don't do it instantly, because unlike others, they like to not only confirm the issue, and go the extra step to find the solution before it speads all over the web that there's an issue, but they actually research how the fault happened in the first place, and work internally to make sure it doesn't happen again.

      You obviously don';t read Mac's technicla forums, or work with their engineers very often. Identified problems are solved quickly and accurately. New issues are kept under covers until there's a solution. What a lot of press who are pro-microsoft do is tattle about every time there's an issue that's NOT a bug, but a design choice apple made, that they try to keep quiet.

      Microsoft has been doing alot worse lately covering up actual conversations about how they screwed the public with this "vista ready" garbage. They've not only ignored customer complaints, and hundreds of bugs (with dozens of key problems that are still unresolved like copy speeds), but they're also turning their backs on the vendors, and lying about conversations with ISVs and hardware companies.

      Apple is not perfect, they have faults in design and implementation, as well as code, but overall, their ability to react to solveable problems is amazing, and their low frequency of serious issues that go unresolved is industry leading.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    36. Re:It's mildly shocking... by raynet · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Yeah, they are only gonna kill any other company that tries to sell Mac compatibles. I'd call that much WORSE.

      --
      - Raynet --> .
    37. Re:It's mildly shocking... by vmxeo · · Score: 3, Funny

      Cause Apple's a cult and you have to swear your undying alliegance to them upon purchasing their machines? I don't know... but that's my guess. Kinda like scientology if you ask me.

      it could be worse

    38. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Dekortage · · Score: 4, Interesting

      If it's all marketing then why does Apple have the highest consumer satisfaction rates in the entire industry?

      Here's an interesting factoid from the 1990s for you. Of all the auto brands in the General Motors family, Pontiac had the highest standards of production quality, while Cadillac had the lowest. And yet Pontiac had the lowest satisfaction ratings, while Cadillac had the highest.

      My point is that "highest satisfaction" may have nothing to do with actual production quality, but with consumer perception of the product. And I say this as someone who prefers Macs to other systems (the same way I prefer New Balance sneakers to other shoes: because it fits me better).

      --
      $nice = $webHosting + $domainNames + $sslCerts
    39. Re:It's mildly shocking... by nomadic · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If it's all marketing then why does Apple have the highest consumer satisfaction rates in the entire industry?

      Because they're the only industry player who doesn't have significant competition in their sector, and therefore is the only player who isn't faced with razor-thin margins that force them to cut things like customer support?

    40. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Thaelon · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Image.

      Apple has managed to conceptually sell the idea that owning apple products makes you better than someone who doesn't. And now they're literally selling it to you.

      Most people this shallow have more money than sense (it overlaps with the SUV demographic) and thus will simply buy replacements when one breaks rather than filling out customer satisfaction surveys about the interaction with apple customer support that they didn't have.

      But I believe in the company's ability to extract money from these people, which is why I own Apple stock. ;)

      That's at least part of it. Who is more likely to fill out a survey? The customer that's a rabid fanboi getting a chance to express his undying love for the company that he throws wads of cash at? Or the one who is pissed off because their ipod just broke? Yes, I kinda slanted the questions a bit, but you get the idea.

      Don't misunderstand me, I'm not an anti-fanboy either. I'm simply rational, skeptical, and less susceptible to marketing than your average person.

      I have a shuffle that I use at the gym almost daily. For a gym-music machine it's very hard to beat. Tiny, lightweight, clips on, stays out of the way, and plays music. Coupled with a pair of the cheapest, lightest, banded in-ear headphones I could find it's the perfect gym music player.

      Oh, I did I forget to mention that the first shuffle broke within days? And nearly deafened me with its death scream? So as a customer, I'm pretty neutral myself. Sure, they overnighted me a replacement before I even shipped mine off, but I would have rather have one that worked the first time and didn't hurt my eardrums when it died.

      So this particular customer is a little negative. Removing iPod download was reprehensible. And I've had two out of three ipods break. But they didn't give me a survey. And I probably wouldn't waste my time filling it out if they did.

      --

      Question everything

    41. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Sandbags · · Score: 5, Interesting

      Let me poot it this way. On blogspot, a systems security company ran a series of articles called "Mad as Hell" where they took a large portion of their user base, switched them to Macs for 6 months, and did an exhaustive TCO analysis (on a side note, macs came out to be much cheaper to operate, almost by half, than cheaper windows boxes once security, man hours, and more came into play, he had a nice spreadsheet you could plug your own numbers into as well if your rates differed).

      The point I'm making here is there were several key (read VOCAL) employees that tried to refuse to use a mac. After 6 months, those same employees BOUGHT the mac they were using from the company, and REFUSED to switch back to a PC.

      I've been a mac user since 1984 (and apple user since 1980). Every mac I or my family has owned is still working today, except an iMac G4 that got fried by lightning) including a Lisa bought in 84 and an original imac 128K in 85. Sure, we've had HDDs and power suplies blow out, and they've been repaired, but since every component in a mac is basiccaly the same as a PC, except the motherboard of which I have NEVER had one fail (including the hundred or so macs in an advertising firm I ran IT for).

      Saying that people are too proud to complain about their high dollar purchases? Let me tell you, people who buy expensive stuff are VERY vocal about it's issues. They expect it to work, work well, and never die. Try asking a tech at a mercedes dealership... I'd like to see some of your references showing how this psychological phenomenon was measured...

      besides, most macs, feature to feayture, are CHEAPER than equivolent Dell systems. Sure, you can't get a Mac for $499, but lets be honest, you can't get a real PC for that either. (A PC that doesn't meet the minimum requirements to run the OS pre-installed on it does not countas a real PC)

      I dare you, go to Dell's site, configure matching systems to an iMac, Powerbook Pro, and Mini. The Dell One is about $150 more expensive than an iMac, their gaming notebooks (keep in mind the pro has a very high performance graphics engine and is intended to play Wow and run virtual machines, it's not a toy) are $300-500 more expensive than the mac pro, even their SFF desktop is more than $100 more than a mini. You can get a basic notebook for about $100 less than a standard macbook, with part to part equivolent perfornamce, but the Dell is more than a ound heavier if you do, or more expensive if you go lighter. Nothing Dell has compares to the Air.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
    42. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Yahweh+Doesn't+Exist · · Score: 2, Funny

      yeah right, and to save the massive disappointment on my iBook that's worked amazingly for me for 3 years, I have since wasted money on 2 iPods, an iPhone, Airport Express, various peripherals and software.

      Also, when I used Vista for the first time ever a few days ago (I was asked to help set up wireless on it) all the pop ups didn't really annoy me, they were like lots of little hugs from Microsoft letting me know they cared, I just faked my disgust at MS design to mask my massive heartache at Apple's famously difficult to use products.

      Sarcasm: I'm doing it right.

    43. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Orion+Blastar · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Not to mention that Apple sues web sites that show rumors and news on Apple products. Part of the reason why Apple sued them, was to stop all of the news and rumors on defective Apple technology like laptop batteries that caught on fire, flaws in OSX, cracks in Mac cases, and poor customer support, etc. Once Apple sues all critics into oblivion, there can be no more negative reviews on Apple products.

      --
      Remember, Slashdot does not have a -1 disagree moderation, and no, troll, flamebait, and overrated are not substitutes.
    44. Re:It's mildly shocking... by I'm+not+really+here · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Wow... talk about putting words in my mouth. I really hate when people do that.

      I never once said a word about Microsoft and most certainly did not say anything positive about them. I use Microsoft only because it is required at my job. I'd switch to a flavor of *nix at home, but I have family to consider (my wife is not comfortable with it, and I want to maintain our network and servers for both our benefit, not just my hacking wishes).

      Also, I have read the Mac forums, and have kept up on the comments that suddenly vanish because a person actually reported a serious bug. I've seen frustrated users repeatedly post bug reports due to their post suddenly vanishing without comment, and I've seen Apple remove those posts and then present nothing but denials that there are any issues being covered up.

      No company is perfect, and these are obviously fringe cases, but the facts remain.

      They look so clean because they work so hard to look clean. They white wash the issues to make that 5-10% of disgruntled customers disappear from their public image.

      Microsoft simply sues people into oblivion to ensure that no matter how crappy their software is, they still make money.

      Linux has many of its own issues, such as driver problems, so many versions as to make one's head spin, and a small number of rude but vocal people on forums telling people to shut up and stop posting their n00b questions to the forum (not a great welcome to my friends who are trying it out for the first time, even though I understand the forum users' frustration).

      So to recap:
      - Don't put words in others' mouths.
      - All OS's and all companies have problems, just different problems, and anyone who is a fanboi for anything just because they like it has no ability to think critically.

      So Mac does it better than the rest... so what. They still whitewash their image to try and look as squeaky clean as they can while still putting out stuff that may not be over priced, but sure isn't competitively priced either. Meh. It's life. Get over it.

      --
      Before commenting on the Bible, please read it first
    45. Re:It's mildly shocking... by erroneus · · Score: 2, Interesting

      You were modded as Funny, but I would have gone with 'Insightful.'

      I use, support and even endorse Apple computers for certain people and applications. I'm not an Apple basher. But some realities regarding the success of Apple are that it is eerily similar to Starbuck's Coffee and H2 and H3 Hummer vehicles. People just want to be seen with them. They want to be associated with all of the images associated with what they think these products represent. For those who value brand recognition, these brands all represent the height of cool and awesome. (Well, Hummer isn't as cool as it was at first with fuel prices being what they are now.) But really... It's the summer time at the moment and the last time I visited a Starbuck's shop, there were no fewer than three users of laptops there and while one of them appear to be "an author" (he did have on a black, long-sleeve pull-over... I didn't see the grey jacket with brown patches on the sleeves though... so I figured he was a writer or that he thinks he is and needs to do it in a Coffee shop.) the other two were doing something approaching nothing where one was playing freecell and the other simply never touched the keyboard or even looked at the screen.

      At the moment, I'm in Japan and there are Starbuck's shops here as well, but not quite for the same reasons. I don't see as many beatnicks and have yet to see a single laptop computer there. (I do see laptops at McDonald's quite often, however, and they even provide power outlets at many of their seats! Turns out there are many students who go there to do their homework... actual work and purpose.)

      I'm not saying Japanese people are any less shallow than US people. In fact, I would argue that Japanese see more value in brand recognition than the general populace of the US. I'm just saying for the targets of certain markets in the US, the following does indeed seem to be without practical basis... they are attempting to buy lifestyle and have yet to figure out they cannot.

    46. Re:It's mildly shocking... by LearnToSpell · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Got some links for that? Not that I'm doubting you, but if I believed everything I read on Slashdot...

    47. Re:It's mildly shocking... by mrraven · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I have a G5 tower and an itouch now and have had a classic and an LCIII in the past and they are pretty much OK. OTH I was pretty bummed when my 1200 dollar iBook only lasted a couple of years due to the infamous logic board problem:

      http://www.applefritter.com/node/10193

      I also had the original SATA drive fail on my G5 tower and it makes the infamous power supply beep, beep, beep, sound...

      While I think OS X is the best OS going I've never had those sorts of hardware problems on a P.C. I'd love to be able to LEGALLY put OS X on cheap and cheerful p.c. hardware, I know it won't happen but I do think it would be better and cheaper.

      --
      Tired of all the isms, don't exploit people as an employer, or a government, mmmmK?
    48. Re:It's mildly shocking... by MojoStan · · Score: 2, Informative

      I fully agree with the above above poster. Rate of failure seems higher to me too from personal experience. . And I trust that more than independent studies that are not done over long period of time.

      Sorry, but Consumer Reports has a larger sample size tested over a longer period than you do I bet. They've been evaluating Apple systems alongside other vendors for a decade at least and Apple has consistently been at the top of the heap for low failure rates.

      I'm not sure if you're referring to CR's Product Reliability Survey, but their most recent survey (June 2008 issue for computers bought between 2003 and 2007) had Apple's notebooks at the bottom (among major brands) for brand repair history (but only "meaningfully" worse than Lenovo and Compaq). Their results for percentage that "have ever been repaired or had a serious problem" (differences of less than three points are not meaningful):

      Lenovo (IBM): 20%
      Compaq: 20%
      Sony: 21%
      Toshiba: 21%
      Dell: 22%
      HP: 22%
      Gateway: 22%
      Apple: 23%

      So according to the most recent Consumer Reports Product Reliability Survey, for notebooks bought between 2003 and 2007, Apple (as a brand) is no better than any other big brand. I suspect there are significant differences in specific models (e.g. iBook vs. PowerBook, MacBook vs. MacBook Pro).

      --
      TO START
      PRESS ANY KEY

      Where's the 'ANY' key? I see Esk, Kitarl, and Pig-Up...

    49. Re:It's mildly shocking... by toddestan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I've been a mac user since 1984 (and apple user since 1980). Every mac I or my family has owned is still working today, except an iMac G4 that got fried by lightning) including a Lisa bought in 84 and an original imac 128K in 85. Sure, we've had HDDs and power suplies blow out, and they've been repaired, but since every component in a mac is basiccaly the same as a PC, except the motherboard of which I have NEVER had one fail (including the hundred or so macs in an advertising firm I ran IT for).

      I've never had a PC fail. Sure, the harddrive craps out occasionally, and sometimes the power supply blows, but once it's repaired it's as good as new! Who are you kidding? At least when a power supply dies in a PC, I have a pretty good chance of finding a replacement without cannabalizing another Mac or paying Apple's replacement prices.

      Besides, I find it extremely hard to believe that you've never had a logic board (that's Mac for motherboard) fail. Seems like the most common problem I've seen with Macs, and they are notoriously unreliable in the low end notebooks (Macbooks/iBooks).

      I dare you, go to Dell's site, configure matching systems to an iMac, Powerbook Pro, and Mini.

      I dare you to go to Dell (or pick any random PC manufacturer), find a model, then price out the closest equilivent Mac. Unless you limit yourself to the small subset of PC hardware that is most like the Mac hardware (such as niche products like the Dell One), you'll find that PC is almost always cheaper.

    50. Re:It's mildly shocking... by toddestan · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Another fun fact is that the Chevy/Geo Prism always got lower ratings than the Toyota Corolla, despite them being the same car with the exception of some exterior plastic cladding.

    51. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Draek · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And everyone knows IBM *SHOULD* have done the same, why does Apple get lambasted for it...just because people don't like Stevie?

      No, it's because everybody knows IBM *SHOULDN'T* have done the same, but rather, figure out how to profit from an open platform, since trying to stick to their monopolistic practices is what almost drove them to bankrupcy the first time around. Kinda sorta like your favorite fruity-flavored company, huh.

      --
      No problem is insoluble in all conceivable circumstances.
    52. Re:It's mildly shocking... by arminw · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...the PC is still the winner when it comes to how much you can do with it for the price....

      Baloney! Try this:

      Get a video camera (say a Sony) with say a 20-40 minute video you or a friend made. Plug this camera into your computer. Most likely you won't find a place to connect it, because most video cameras use firewire.

      Now edit this video down to exactly 10 minutes, adding a few transitions, titles and a few effects. Then produce a DVD with Titles and Chapters. After that convert your magnum opus and upload it to youtube for all the world to enjoy.

      The conditions though for all that is that you may not buy or download any extra software, but must only use the PC as you get it from the manufacturer.

      Any Mac, even the inexpensive mini will do all that OUT OF THE BOX.

      Of course, if you are only a consumer, rather than at times a creator of content, you would not care about all this.

      --
      All theory is gray
    53. Re:It's mildly shocking... by Sandbags · · Score: 2, Informative

      Per Gartner, Apple enjoys an 81% overall satisfaction rating as of April 08. #1 of all PC manufacturers. This is a rating of how many people gave apple high marks, but does not differentiate the remaining 19% into groups. To get this information, you have to buy a copy of the gartner report. Agencies that do can not publish or link this information or make parts of it public without gartner's permission, so i can't link you to sources. What i can tell you is there are several sub categories making up that 19%, and the bottom tier, "dissatisfied" was just barely over 3%. This basically includes the customers who not only had an issue of some kind with their Mac, or Apple's service of it, but actually disliked how the process was handled. It also includes the extremely small percentage of people who returned a Mac after purchase (far less than 1%).

      The 3% is not who has a problem with a mac and needs support, its the 3% who have ISSUE with the Mac itself, or supports processes. More than half of Mac owners call for support at some point during the system's warranty period... Solving these issues with only 3% complaining, that's outstanding.

      --
      There is no contest in life for which the unprepared have the advantage.
  2. Competition Killer by Harold+Halloway · · Score: 4, Insightful

    But it's Apple, so it's OK.

    1. Re:Competition Killer by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Funny

      But it's Apple, so it's OK.

      Reality distortion field detected! Raise your shields! Retreat!

    2. Re:Competition Killer by m.ducharme · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Er. Apple is a) a very small player in a market locked up by Microsoft (for OSs), and b) just one of many players in the home computer hardware market. By tying their hardware so firmly to the OS, they aren't so much killing competition as denying themselves extra sales of the OS.

      I'm all for holding Apple to account for their licensing policies, but hyperbole doesn't help.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    3. Re:Competition Killer by onecheapgeek · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Digidyne v. Data General. No requiring hardware to legally use software. It even involved a company which sold clones of Data General's. Precedent is on Psystar's side. http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&vol=473&invol=908&friend=nytimes

    4. Re:Competition Killer by Harold+Halloway · · Score: 4, Funny

      That's a fair point. Not even I know whether my post is ironic or deadly serious.

    5. Re:Competition Killer by yuna49 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The link points not to any decision, but to a dissent by Byron White objecting to the Supreme Court's decision not to hear on the case on appeal. The Court never explains why it chooses not hear a case, but Justices can publish a dissent from that decision if they feel it's warranted. There is no precedent established here, at least in the sense of a Supreme Court ruling.

      Moreover, if you read White's dissent, he points out that tying agreements are not always per se illegal and can in some cases be pro-competitive. If anything his dissent, and the fact that the Court did not take on the Data General case, tells me that the law here is sufficiently murky that the relevance of this decision to the Apple/Psystar case is debatable.

      Do you really think that, if the law is as clear-cut as you think, Apple would be undertaking this litigation? My guess is that Apple's attorneys believe that the DG case does not provide a sufficient precedent to decide automatically in favor of Psystar. We'll see if the courts agree.

    6. Re:Competition Killer by onecheapgeek · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That is correct, but the Appeals Court's decision falls on Psystar's side. While this is by no means definitive in the case in question, it is a legal precedent at the federal level, and it relates directly to the matter at hand.

  3. Don't want to dilute the elixir by Hyppy · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Apple is and always has been a hardware company. They fear competition on the hardware front, because that's their primary business product: overpriced "luxury" computers. (cue the fanboy bashings)

    1. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by LWATCDR · · Score: 3, Informative

      Well I am not a fanboy and don't own a Mac but.
      Their notebooks except the Air seem to be competitively priced.
      The Imac seems a little pricey.
      The Pro towers seem again to be competitive for what you get.
      And the Servers seem like a pretty good deal.
      What they lack are the super cheap entry level disposable junk that you see at BestCompuMaxCity.
      They do lack a moderate price expandable tower.

      --
      See my blog http://ilovecookes.blogspot.com/ for light hearted technical information.
    2. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by moosesocks · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Their current lineup is fairly competitively priced.

      Go ahead and spec out a similar machine from Dell, HP, or Lenovo. When comparing apples to apples (heh), they might not necessarily be the best deal around, but are certainly competitive, and definitely not a ripoff.

      --
      -- If you try to fail and succeed, which have you done? - Uli's moose
    3. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by Budenny · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Common fallacious argument.

      It does not matter whether you can duplicate a Mac for less. What matters is, after you have settled on a spec you want, or found a Dell or HP you want, can you duplicate that for the same price from the Apple product line?

      95% of the time you can't. This is what makes Apple a rip-off.

      It would only matter that you could not duplicate a Mac cheaper, if the Mac spec were the starting point for shopping. It very rarely is.

    4. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...except the kicker is that I don't have to buy Apple's idea of a
      quad core system in order to get an effective quad core system.

      Instead of the only bundle that Apple is willing to sell me, I can
      get the mini equivalent of a Quad Core system.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    5. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by argent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Go ahead and spec out a similar machine from Dell, HP, or Lenovo.

      Last time I did that I was able to put together a machine comparable to a Mac Mini for about 50% of the price, and a Macbook for about 70% of the price. On average, the "Mac Tax" seems to be about 40% of the list price of a Mac.

      I still bought the Mac mini and the Macbook Pro (thought that was tough, I could have gotten everything I actually wanted (hardware-wise) from a Macbook Pro for about the same price as the Macbook). When the choice is Windows vs UNIX-with-actual-applications, the Mac Tax is worth it. But it's still real.

    6. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by Reality+Master+101 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Apple is and always has been a hardware company.

      Well, that's what Apple and their fans claim. It's never been true, especially now. Proof? How many people buy Apple hardware to NOT run OS/X? (Very few) How many people buy Apple hardware solely to RUN OS/X? (Almost all of them) How successful would Apple be if they chose to simply become just another Windows PC company, and REALLY depended on their hardware? (Somewhat successful, but their prices would have to drop significantly)

      And finally, how successful would OS/X be if Apple sold it as software for any platform, Microsoft-style? It would be earth-shakingly successful, probably garnering 50% marketshare within one year. And probably making 10x more money than they do now.

      --
      Sometimes it's best to just let stupid people be stupid.
    7. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by Dan+Ost · · Score: 5, Funny

      Did anyone else try to read that post as a poem?

      --

      *sigh* back to work...
    8. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by jandrese · · Score: 2, Insightful

      What kills me is that you're stuck with the crappy 1280x800 screen on every Macbook until you get to the outrageously expensive Macbook Pros. Even my >2 year old $600 Inspiron 6000 has a 1680x1050 display on it. I can't go back, but I don't want to pay $2,800 for a laptop either.

      --

      I read the internet for the articles.
    9. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Well, this whole case is about "lack of options".

      Just read the plaintiffs own advertising copy.

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    10. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by timster · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Nah, they are a software company. The truth is that they can't be profitable selling Mac OSX at $150 a copy to compete with Windows, because they need a large developer team to keep pace with Microsoft and they have fewer unit sales.

      So if Microsoft spends $1 billion on development, Apple probably needs to spend at least $500 million to keep up. Microsoft can distribute that cost among 20 million users at $50 each, charge $100 and make half profit. If Apple has 2 million users that comes out to $250 per user spent on development. (These aren't intended to be real numbers, just an approximation of the magnitude of the respective numbers).

      Very few people would spend $500 on a boxed OSX so it's necessary to bundle with hardware that's intentionally kept unique, and lower-end models are limited in certain ways as a form of price discrimination. The uniqueness is part of the package, but it's also a way to obfuscate direct price comparisons.

      Apple sells OSX UPGRADES at a reasonable price, but there's no way you'd catch them selling an "OEM" version anywhere close to $200 -- there'd be no ROI.

      This is the only strategy a commercial OS vendor could resonably hope to use in a Microsoft-dominated market.

      --
      I have seen the future, and it is inconvenient.
    11. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by beelsebob · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You put together a MacMini for 50% of the price? There's only two companies out there I'm aware of that offer similar sized machines. Asus sell the eeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeBox, but it's a lot lower specced, and AOpen's mini PC, which I admit is a better deal, but it's no where near 50% of the price. My guess is that you forgot that being 6" by 6" by 2" and silent is a very very valuable feature.

    12. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by revscat · · Score: 5, Interesting

      And finally, how successful would OS/X be if Apple sold it as software for any platform, Microsoft-style? It would be earth-shakingly successful, probably garnering 50% marketshare within one year. And probably making 10x more money than they do now.

      They tried that before. It didn't work out too well. Also, you're wrong.

      One of the strengths of OS X is that it runs on a limited, well-understood suite of hardware. Bugs are easier to fix, components are easier to tweak, and new features are more easily added. I do not, and never have, believed that Apple would be well served by opening up OS X. It's a tightly run ship (for the most part), and opening it up to all hardware would serve neither Apple nor end users.

    13. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by m.ducharme · · Score: 5, Insightful

      People feeling ripped off is what makes Apple a rip-off. If you're happy with your Mac, and feel you got good value for it, you haven't been ripped off. If you're unhappy with your Windows/PC, and want a Mac to replace it, but can't find one with comparable specs, don't buy one and you won't be ripped off.

      --
      Rule of Slashdot #0: You and people like you are not representative of the larger population. - A.C.
    14. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by moderatorrater · · Score: 4, Insightful

      What they lack are the super cheap entry level disposable junk...They do lack a moderate price expandable tower

      So, hardware-wise, they only sell high end stuff. The thing with the high end is that you start getting diminishing returns. I build moderate towers for half what the high end computers would cost and get 75% of the performance at least, although often it's closer to 80% or 90%. From what I've seen, macs tend to fall later on the curve than I (and most people I know) like to hit, after the performance-per-dollar starts declining.

      Of course, that's just my opinion, many people prefer to buy there, and for them macs are just fine.

    15. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by crmarvin42 · · Score: 4, Informative

      Upgrading ram and HD do NOT void your warranty!

      I've done it on machines that later were serviced under my AppleCare Protection Plan. Even though the person in the call center noticed my specs didn't match what they were at time of purchase they didn't try to weasel out by claiming a warranty violation.

      The last time I sent my Powerbook G4 in for service, the problem was actually related to the cheap 3rd party ram I was using. They simply took it out, put it in a static bag, shipped everything back, and told me to re-install the original ram that shipped with the unit. No attempt was made to bill me for work not covered under the ACPP.

      --
      Bureaucracy expands to meet the needs of the expanding bureaucracy.-Oscar Wilde
    16. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Haikus are easy.
      But sometimes they don't make sense.
      Refrigerator.

    17. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      I dunno if you've noticed or not, but Apple is the most arrogant company in computing. They will do the stupidest thing imaginable for a long, long time, before finally changing their ways and admitting that it was a bad idea. Look at how long it took them to drop the hockey puck mouse. Look at how long it took them to realize that they should make a mouse with more than one buttons. Look at how they still aren't making a real two-button mouse. Look at how long it took them to get with the program, and get on the same processor architecture as the rest of the world had been on for years.

      Apple may one day sell OS X on other companies' hardware, but that point is years off, if it ever arrives, due to Apple's sheer overwhelming arrogance.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    18. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by argent · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You put together a MacMini for 50% of the price? There's only two companies out there I'm aware of that offer similar sized machines.

      I specced a functionally equivalent machine, and even gave Apple a break by not including the cost of the external hard drive case, external powered USB hub, and power strip that made the total size of the Mac mini solution pretty much the same as the low profile desktop, but I *did* count the firewire card in the cost of the PC!

      I am not counting "styling" (including the size of the Mac mini, the smooth white case on the Macbook, etc). Just function. Styling too often has negative value (eg, the Mac mini doesn't even provide enough power from USB to charge an iPod Shuffle).

    19. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by geminidomino · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Styling too often has negative value (eg, the Mac mini doesn't even provide enough power from USB to charge an iPod Shuffle).

      Is that true? I thought there was a standard for USB2. 5V or so.

      Not doubting you, just mind-boggled.

    20. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by beelsebob · · Score: 3, Informative

      You would expect that such a problem would draw a bit of attention, and that you might find something about it if you say googled for "mac mini iPod shuffle charge" or "mac mini USB power". But, searching a good number of terms turns up absolutely nothing -- in fact, even one article claiming that the MacMini provides *too much* power for the USB spec, not too little. He's clearly just spreading FUD.

    21. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by bigstrat2003 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Links, or it didn't happen.

      Ask, and ye shall receive.

      Processor (x2): http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819115041
      Case: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811147056 (I think, I'm not positive if this is the case I picked earlier)
      RAM: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820145175
      Mobo: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131232
      PSU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152031 (again, I think... I didn't save these links so I'm not sure on some parts)
      GPU: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814121082
      Hard drive: http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16822136098

      And I tacked on $40 for an optical drive, I believe. I overshot, looking now it looks like they're $25. Even better.

      --
      "16MB (fuck off, MiB fascists)" - The Mighty Buzzard
    22. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 4, Funny

      I specced a functionally equivalent machine, and even gave Apple a break by not including the cost of the external hard drive case, external powered USB hub, and power strip that made the total size of the Mac mini solution pretty much the same as the low profile desktop, but I *did* count the firewire card in the cost of the PC!

      I know just how you mean. The other day I was looking for a new bicycle. I wanted a bike that would not fold and looked at a Dahon folding bike, then gave Dahon a break by not including the cost of hiring some guy to weld the folding joints in place and it was still more expensive than regular bikes!

    23. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by rkanodia · · Score: 2, Funny

      Actually, if you download the latest devtools, it's right at the top of stdio.h:

      #DEFINE FOUR 3

      The bastards!

    24. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by sloth+jr · · Score: 2, Insightful

      NeXTStep was available for standard Intel boxen. It went nowhere.

    25. Re:Don't want to dilute the elixir by 99BottlesOfBeerInMyF · · Score: 2, Insightful

      If Apple made a "non folding" desktop Mac, your analogy might actually make some sense.

      My analogy makes perfect sense. Dahon doesn't make non-folding bikes. Apple doesn't make a low-end consumer tower. Buying a specialty product that costs extra money because it is engineered to be compact and trying to change it into a different product and compare that is just dumb. If you want to compare the prices of the mini to other ultra compact systems, go ahead, but they do very well in such a comparison.

  4. Wake up people by mlwmohawk · · Score: 4, Insightful

    Apple is exactly what Microsoft would be if Bill Gate's father wasn't already a wealthy man. Do you think that Jobs or Gates are very much different?

    One interesting note, however, Apple uses the courts as an offensive mechanism more often than Microsoft. Microsoft tends to bombard problems with cash projectiles until resistance is bought off. Apple sues you for even talking about them.

    All multi-national corporations suck.

    1. Re:Wake up people by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Funny

      Innovation though Litigation.

    2. Re:Wake up people by argent · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Wake up to what?

      Few people have any illusions that Apple is "not evil" in some sense that makes them different from any other company.

      But this case has nothing to do with being evil or being good.

      Apple and Microsoft have a completely different set of business models. It's not just that they're smaller, the whole revenue model is radically different: Apple makes their money from hardware sales. This is probably the biggest reason that Apple's still in business: they're not fighting Microsoft on Microsoft's playing field.

      Anyway, they have to sell hardware to do that. So they license the software in a way that drives hardware sales. So they kind of don't have an alternative: go up against Microsoft when death is on the line, or sue someone who's blatantly violating your license.

  5. Guess we get to see just how far EULAs will go... by tinkerghost · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Without the clause in the EULA that you will only run the OS on a genuine MAC, there is nothing here. So I guess we get to see just how far a shrink wrap EULA will go in the court. I'm not entirely certain that this is a good case for it, but it's not one of the worst.

    Unfortunately, the 9th Circuit just ruled for Blizzard in their interpretation of a EULA violation negating the validity of license of legally purchased software & CA is in the 9th Circuit.

  6. a boy can dream by jtroutman · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Wouldn't it be nice if they fought this? If they said, hey, we bought your software, we can install it on whatever we want. And then, in my imaginary world, a judge sees their point of view and rules that once you purchase a piece of software, it's yours to do with as you please.

    --
    I stole this sig from a more creative user.
    1. Re:a boy can dream by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 2, Insightful

      And then, in my imaginary world, a judge sees their point of view and rules that once you purchase a piece of software, it's yours to do with as you please.

      The OpenMoko article is just below this one. Enjoy ^_^

    2. Re:a boy can dream by jtroutman · · Score: 4, Interesting

      Actually, they do. Look at what just happened to Dell. Their EULA stated that you had to agree to arbitration, but a judge ruled that it was invalid. Just because a company writes something down on a piece of paper and sticks that piece of paper into a product that you buy, doesn't make it necessarily enforceable.

      --
      I stole this sig from a more creative user.
    3. Re:a boy can dream by TheQuantumShift · · Score: 2, Insightful

      So we can ignore Apple and Microsoft's licenses because we don't like them, but if anyone even thinks about subverting the GPL, fire up the pot of boiling oil? Awesome.

      Personally I believe the choice has to be made by the individual, not the courts. Enough people start reading EULA's and asking uncomfortable questions at retail, and we may see better licenses, or even more use of free software. Of course that would require everyone be educated about software licensing, and have their brains rewired from a lifetime of marketing exposure...

      --

      Shift happens. Fire it up.
    4. Re:a boy can dream by Altus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Thank you. I think this is something that is all too often overlooked here.

      --

      "In America, first you get the sugar, then you get the power, then you get the women..." -H. Simpson

  7. Not a bad business model... by BUL2294 · · Score: 5, Interesting

    1. Create a line of Mac clones.
    2. Sell them to an unwitting public.
    3. Have Apple file suit.
    4. Pay bonuses to all the execs.
    5. Declare bankruptcy.
    6. Shut down all operations.

    Guess what... Everyone who bought a Psystar is left totally unsupported (which includes the all-important security hole fixes) and the execs made a bundle... Now, could Apple go after the execs personally for copyright infringement or (the soon-to-be-defunct) Psystar? Ironically, there was no consumer fraud here--businesses go under all the time and anyone who bought a Psystar would have had to know that Apple wouldn't support them...

    --
    Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
    1. Re:Not a bad business model... by nsayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      When the North won the U.S. Civil War, they pointedly said that the federal government would not redeem confederate currency, nor pay any confederate debts. Apple's pretty much taking the same line, and the reason is pretty obvious: If Apple were to make nice, it would encourage purchases from the next huckster that tries to sell Apple clones.

    2. Re:Not a bad business model... by BUL2294 · · Score: 2, Informative

      Anyone who bought a Psystar should have known that Psystar wouldn't necessarily support (or be able to support) them either. Them's the risks when you buy a hacked product.

      And those risks are minimized if the product never needs updating. But now that many items (PCs, cell phones, game consoles) need to phone home to get security fixes, buying a hacked item, be it a Psystar or a hacked iPhone, just doesn't make sense...

      --
      Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
    3. Re:Not a bad business model... by BUL2294 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      And just because Apple is suing these guys, and is probably willing to spend more money bankrupting them than Psystar's owners have ever seen in their lives, does not necessarily mean that Psystar is in the wrong, or that any of what they have been doing is deceptive, unethical, or illegal.

      I never said that Psystar was in the wrong. Think of it this way... If I wanted to make a quick buck off of someone else's namesake, I'd do what I outlined in my OP--found a company, make a product that pisses off a bigger company (but in a way that I can only face civil and not criminal prosecution), rake in some profits, get sued, pay out dividends/bonuses--blowing out all our cash, and go under using corporate/investor & bankruptcy laws to shield my now-plentiful personal assets from my "sound investment". In such a scenario, every asset the company still had would be riddled with debt leaving creditors fighting with the suing party for the scraps...

      In the mean time, my shareholders/high-ranking employees and I made a cool couple-hundred-grand in "dividends", "salary", and "bonuses"; my customers got their products (no threat of criminal prosecution for not delivering, warranty claims can't happen due to bankruptcy, etc.); and multiple parties are fighting over the scraps--the 20 PCs, 5 laser printers, 15 phones, the cubicle walls, and some pens & Post-It notes.

      --
      Windows 3.1x calc: 3.11 - 3.10 = 0.00
  8. Demand for OS X by javacowboy · · Score: 2, Informative

    Much of Apple's success is due to the fact that they have what is IMNHO by far the best consumer OS on the planet. They have the exclusive right to distribute that OS. As they should: they put up a sizable investment of human and technological resources to build it. Normally, I'm against harsh "intellectual property" laws, but this is Apple's investment in a huge competitive advantage, and they've earned it.

    Naturally with their "monopoly" on OS X distribution, they're able to skim off the top and limit distribution and the types of computers (ex cheap minitowers) that can run it. This has all kinds of people frustrated, as I'm sure some in the Slashdot crowd are. Apple tolerates a few hackers jumping through hoops to get it running on commodity PCs, as long as that means they lose maybe 0.1% of their potential customers.

    Now some small fry entrepreneur is willing to take the risk of tapping into the rest of the 99.9% of the OS X market by selling PCs with OS X loaded on them. Despite the overwhelming legal precedent against them (I don't know of any official retailer that has gotten away with installing pirated versions of Windows on commodity PCs), they figure it's worth the risk. If they argue that they paid for every shrink-wrapped copy of OS X, then they stand a moderately better chance of succeeding.

    Still, I imagine there's massive unsatisfied demand for OS X, which seems to be what MacOSX86 and Pystar are all about.

    --
    This space left intentionally blank.
    1. Re:Demand for OS X by WK2 · · Score: 5, Insightful

      [Apple has] the exclusive right to distribute [their] OS. As they should ... Now some small fry entrepreneur is ... selling PCs with OS X loaded on them. Despite the overwhelming legal precedent against them (I don't know of any official retailer that has gotten away with installing pirated versions of Windows on commodity PCs...

      You seem to be confusing Psystar's behavior with piracy. They pay for their copies of OS X. Apple doesn't have a discount distribution center for their OS (for obvious reasons), so Psystar pays full retail price for each copy of OS X that they sell, and they use their right-of-first-sale rights to then resell that copy to their customers.

      Yesterday Slashdot had a story about how it was judged that loading software in RAM is equivalent to distributing software. Psystar is loading it onto the HDD, so this ruling might be different. Of course, you could argue that Psystar is then distributing the HDD, but as mentioned before, right-of-first-sale gives them this right without the need for a license.

      It's been a while, but I really hope for a sane copyright-related ruling this time. I'm not holding my breath.

      --
      Write your own Choose Your Own Adventure. http://www.freegameengines.org/gamebook-engine/
    2. Re:Demand for OS X by nsayer · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Much of Apple's success is due to the fact that they have what is IMNHO by far the best consumer OS on the planet. They have the exclusive right to distribute that OS.

      Copyright law certainly grants them the exclusive right to the first sale.

      The sole issue for debate is whether or not someone is allowed to buy a boxed copy of Leopard from Amazon and then do with it what they like, including run it on "unauthorized" hardware.

      Apple's EULA says "no," but it is far from legally certain that that EULA is worth the pixels it's printed on.

    3. Re:Demand for OS X by vux984 · · Score: 4, Insightful

      They have the exclusive right to distribute that OS. ... Normally, I'm against harsh "intellectual property" laws, but this is Apple's investment in a huge competitive advantage, and they've earned it.

      Psystar buys legal copies OS X to ship with its units.

      Apple tolerates a few hackers jumping through hoops to get it running on commodity PCs, as long as that means they lose maybe 0.1% of their potential customers.

      Actually, they are losing far more than that. I won't buy a Mac because they won't make one with the specs and form factor I want. I'm interested in an 'imac tower', and a 12" macbook with a decent video card, gps, and a cellular data option. (I'd gladly give up the internal cdrom for an express card slot. I'd also be interested in a tablet-mac... and the axiotron is pretty sweet, but it would be even better if using the stylus was optional, the price wasn't so high, and the little hiccups like auto-rotating the screen based on orientation were worked out.

      My other big wish list for OSX is virtualization. I'd pay $350-400 (up two twice the retail price for OSX) for a copy that I could legally run in VMWare on non-apple hardware.(Yes I know leopard server allows for virtualization, but only on apple hardware [which I don't like], and it costs $500.)

      Despite the overwhelming legal precedent against them (I don't know of any official retailer that has gotten away with installing pirated versions of Windows on commodity PCs), they figure it's worth the risk.

      What legal precendent. No one has -ever- done anything like this before. Pirated copies of windows are not remotely in the same category as legally purchased copies of os x.

      If they argue that they paid for every shrink-wrapped copy of OS X, then they stand a moderately better chance of succeeding.

      There's no "if" about it.

      The -only- question is whether or not the eula that requires the os be run on apple brand hardware will stick or not.

      And its a VERY complicated question.

      On apple's side:

      They have the EULA in place that clearly forbids it. That sure beats trying to deal with this on pure copyright.

      They have a dubious legal precedent in the blizzard case that suggests that violating an eula makes an in computer, or even in RAM copy an unauthorized copy.

      They also have the DMCA which can come into play with its protection of 'technical measures'. After all, Apple, doesn't just have the EULA, the code actually tries to check the hardware, and the psystar people have to defeat it to install OSX. This itself may be illegal.

      On Psystar's side:

      we have first sale doctrine - they bought OSX. They can do what they want with it, including resell it. There was an ebay related case against the makers of autocad I think over this... someone was selling used copies of autocad, and the courts ruled this was legal under first sale, despite autocad's protestation that it was against the EULA. (This is also potentially a counter precedent to the blizzard one too... as it ruled the first sale doctrine rights couldn't be stripped by the shrink wrapped EULA.)

      We also have an exception in the DMCA that provides for deafeating copyright measures for interoperability. Clearly Psystar could argue that they only modified OSX to make it interoperate with the non-apple hardware. There is a printer related precedent that might come into play, where some printer manufacturer tried to prevent a competitor from releasing replacement ink via a DMCA lawsuit, and lost, because the competitor had reverse engineered the printer software to figure out how to get their cartridges to 'interoperate' with the printer. This is particularly salient because it shows the DMCA interoperation clause being successfully used in a case where the OEM specifically sought to prevent interoperation... indeed the entire point of the drm was to lock out competition. -- And they lost.

      Psystar also potentially can continue to operate simply by ceasin

  9. not sealed by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    Here is a slightly more informative (less speculative) posting: http://blogs.zdnet.com/BTL/?p=9328

  10. Come on, now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

    That's like saying Rolls Royce is no more expensive than the equivalently specced $OTHER_BRAND.

    When you include the maple wood trim, leather seats, huge engine, ... it all works out about the same.

    Kind of silly, isn't it.

    Now, what the point IS is that nowadays you can buy a crappy little CPU, some memory and an old graphics card and have PLENTY of horsepower for what you need to do.

    And Apple don't make one of them.

    So Apple are expensive. Because they don't do the cheaper end.

    No reason why they can't, they just don't.

    1. Re:Come on, now by jedidiah · · Score: 2, Insightful

      ...except there is none of that maple wood trim in an Apple.

      The Apple is quite literally all of the innards of a Ford put into a prettier body style...

      --
      A Pirate and a Puritan look the same on a balance sheet.
    2. Re:Come on, now by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Funny

      ...except there is none of that maple wood trim in an Apple.

      The Apple is quite literally all of the innards of a Ford put into a prettier body style...

      You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

  11. So excited for a legal judgment by saterdaies · · Score: 4, Interesting

    I really hope this goes to trial and a judge rules on it. Partly because I think the judge would rule that Apple can't do what they're trying to do with their EULA, but even if the judge sides with them, it's still a clarification of the law.

    I don't like existing in the murky world of armchair people positing what is and isn't legal. Plus, if it goes Psystar's way, I doubt it would be too long before larger manufacturers got on board. Once something becomes legal, corporations want all over it (well, I guess that applies to profitable things).

  12. Re:No surprise by drspliff · · Score: 5, Interesting

    It takes a lot of preparation for them to reach this point and file proceedings, consider:

      * exec hears about it, if it were Microsoft chairs would be thrown
      * passed to the legal team to see if Apple have a case
      * legal sign off
      * paralegals do the groundwork, scrutinizing the EULA etc.
      * ...
      * ...
      * case is filed in court?

    In the past I've tried bringing legal action for trademark infringement, and the whole process just to get things started can take months and months especially if you're in a large organization with N-layers of forms & approvals required for anything like this.

  13. order now before the injunction by fpgaprogrammer · · Score: 2, Insightful

    you better order one now before an Apple-filed injunction is approved... not only will you get a cheap & better mac clone, you'll also give them the cash they need for their legal fun. better act fast!

  14. Think Different? by NeuroManson · · Score: 2, Funny

    More like "Sue Predictably".

    --
    Just because you can mod me down, doesn't mean you're right. Shoes for industry!
  15. Re:Guess we get to see just how far EULAs will go. by frission · · Score: 5, Interesting

    There's a little more to it now. It sounds more like they're suing because they took the Leopard update, opened it up, modified files in it, and re-released it for themselves. I think they're considering that a copyright infringement.

  16. Re:Thankfully... by joranbelar · · Score: 4, Informative

    The 9th Circuit Court is the most over-turned court.

    False. In fact, the 1st, 2nd, and 10th circuits had 100% of their decisions heard by the supreme court reversed in 04-05. The 9th had 84%.

    In terms of pure numbers, yes, this may be true. But the 9th circuit also hears comparatively more cases than the others, as well. In terms of percentages, this is an oft-repeated but rarely-documented fallacious statement. The only time in recent history when they were the most overturned was in the 96-97 session.

    It's also somewhat of a silly statistic, given that the supreme court rarely hears cases that it doesn't expect to overturn - if the general consensus is agreement, why would they hear the appeal unless it's important enough to "reinforce" the original court's decision?

  17. The EULA violation is insignificant by Proteus · · Score: 5, Insightful

    I know the Slashdot hordes like to bitch and moan about EULAs -- not without cause, mind you -- but the EULA violation in this case might as well be a footnote.

    If all Psystar had done was violate the EULA clause that said "hey, you won't do anything to make this run on non-Apple hardware", then this case would be about how enforceable that clause is.

    Unfortunately, Psystar did much more egregious things than violate a silly EULA term. They, by their own public admission, modified a copyright-protected work, then redistributed these modifications without a license to do so. And they did it for commercial purposes, no less. Even under the traditional terms of copyright (as opposed to the mutilated corporate-serving terms we have now), that's just not cricket.

    On top of that copyright infringement, they also noodle-headedly used at least one Apple trademark (the "Leopard" name and mark) to promote the sale of hardware and software.

    I will be absolutely stunned if Apple doesn't prevail on the Copyright and Trademark parts of their case, though I do hope that the judge will find that a license to run software on a particular kind of hardware is not binding.

    (Not a lawyer, this isn't advice -- I do know a thing or two about the law)

    --
    We may not imagine how our lives could be more frustrating and complex—but Congress can. – Cullen Hightower
    1. Re:The EULA violation is insignificant by yoris · · Score: 2, Insightful

      well, you may not be a lawyer, but this is probably the most enlightening and insightful (not to mention most on-topic) comment in the entire thread. too bad we have to scroll through an entire page of fanboyish discussions to get to it :-) Tip of the hat to you, sir.

  18. Re:Guess we get to see just how far EULAs will go. by Hyppy · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Apple: I'm not going to sell you this software unless you agree to only run it on Genuine Apple hardware.

    Customer: okay, I agree.

    I think you got that out of order.

    Salesperson: Here you go!
    Customer: Thanks! (opens shrink wrap, starts install, reads EULA)
    Customer: I want to return this opened product because I do not agree to the terms of the EULA.
    Salesperson: fsck you.

  19. "Fanboi" is not good rhetoric by stewbacca · · Score: 2, Insightful

    For once I'd like to see a mature rebuttal against the current successful state of Macintosh that doesn't have to revert to the term "fanboi". If you can do that, I'd give your arguments credit. Until then, your insistence on using "fanboi" shows that you have no real credibility behind your otherwise immature claims.

    1. Re:"Fanboi" is not good rhetoric by mr_mischief · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Perhaps fanboyism is a major part of their consumer market success. I've yet to see anything as nice as Final Cut Pro on Windows. Nothing from Avid, Pinnacle, or anyone else comes close. The color matching between a Mac with a good monitor and print output makes any Adobe or other graphics software a much better value proposition on a Mac than on a Windows PC. The stock sound system on a Mac is superior to what you get with most PCs. As a media creation workstation, I'd say a Mac is far superior to a Windows PC. It's no SGI, but it doesn't carry the even higher premium, either. The professional market might have a trickle-down effect to simple fanboys, but many home Mac customers also use one at the office.

      I prefer Linux for my work, as I'm mostly kept busy as a software developer with choice of platform and Linux is very nice for that. I do most of my gaming on Windows, and my accountant uses Windows because our chosen software only works (well, anyway) there. I have two used Macs, one with Linux and one with OS X. The OS X one is around for when I need to do some intense graphics work, as that's the platform for that. Some of my simpler stuff gets done on Linux or Windows, but tougher graphics stuff is on a Mac or outsourced to someone. Most of the people to whom I outsource graphics work also use primarily Macs for that.

  20. It's quite funny, really... by Microlith · · Score: 3, Informative

    What's funny is how no one mentions that Apple hasn't made a single legal move against the OSX86 project.

    They haven't made a peep, not a disapproving statement nor threats of legal action. The ONLY reason Apple cares is because Psystar is riding their name and software in an attempt to make a cheap buck, and would likely push the support issues off to Apple who will take a black mark for refusing to support hardware they had no hand in.

    Apple doesn't give a damn about you running OS X on your hackintosh, because you're part of a small audience and are probably aware that you get exactly nothing in terms of support. Apple does give a damn about companies like Psystar, even if their copies are legitimately purchased they'd have -nothing- if not for Apple.

    And Apple was fully within their rights to kill off the clone market. They simply refused to continue licensing MacOS out to 3rd parties because, as Jobs duly noted, they were gutting Apple's bottom line. All the profit of the hardware sales but none of the software development expense. Continuing to do so would have been a critical error that would likely have killed Apple and MacOS entirely. It was a smart, if vicious, move.

    1. Re:It's quite funny, really... by HardCase · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How much money is the OSX86 project generating? And what hardware are they selling?

    2. Re:It's quite funny, really... by torkus · · Score: 2, Insightful

      This is nothing more than another case of a company sueing to protect the business model they feel entitled to continued/endless profit from.

      Psystar could still sell computers if apple didn't exist. They could sell them blank, with windows, with linux (oh wait, what is MacOS again?!). How is Apple killing the clone market any different than printer mfgs putting a extremely simple 'encryption' chip in their toners to use the DMCA against after-market toner mfgs?

      And to imply that Apple needs hardware sales to survive is silly. MS makes the vast majority of it's profit off MS Office and MS Windows. Both have versions that will run on virtually any platform (remember the old PPC NT builds? ). They don't sell computers.

      --
      You can get rich if you own a politician, but you have to be rich to buy one in the first place.
  21. Re:Mac license ~= PS3/360/Zune/etc. by sl3xd · · Score: 2, Interesting

    There's already precedent, and it doesn't go well for psystar:

    There were legal mac clones at one point in time. When Jobs came back onboard, they released a new version of the OS whose license specified that you couldn't run it on unauthorized hardware (and to be authorized, the clone makers had a very high royalty to pay). The companies who went out of business due to that had just as much at stake as psystar. They didn't win then, and psystar isn't going to win now.

    Sorry, boys, but you have to follow the terms of the license.

    Frankly, I don't see how (from a legal POV) much difference between Apple's license only allowing you to run on Apple hardware, versus the GPL3's anti-tivoization clause.

    --
    -- Sometimes you have to turn the lights off in order to see.
  22. But Apple always supplied choice by SuperKendall · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I dunno if you've noticed or not, but Apple is the most arrogant company in computing. They will do the stupidest thing imaginable for a long, long time, before finally changing their ways and admitting that it was a bad idea. Look at how long it took them to drop the hockey puck mouse.

    A year or so? That was an ergonomic problem to be sure.

    Look at how long it took them to realize that they should make a mouse with more than one buttons.

    They SHIPPED with a one button mouse for a while. But all along, they have supported multiple buttons on mice. Even now the user has to turn on the second button, so it's not like they changed as much as you think they have.

    Apple simply tries to ship with what they consider to be the best configuration for the user buying that system. There's no arrogance in that, as long as the user is easily able to make other choices that are better for them. Even the first OS X allowed you to hook up a Logitech USB mouse with any number of buttons.

    --
    "There is more worth loving than we have strength to love." - Brian Jay Stanley
  23. the problem by nawcom · · Score: 4, Informative

    I think the problem will come down to what is Apple hardware. Is an Airport Extreme an Apple branded device, or is it a Broadcom 43xx card or Atheros 5424 card with an Apple sticker on it? Is the sound card a "High Definition Apple Sound Card" that's built into the "MacBook Logic Board" or is it just an HD Realtek card (CX1988, etc) on an Intel motherboard with a pick Apple sticker on it? I know for a fact that on Macbooks, they use an Intel processor and motherboard with EFI instead of good ol BIOS, a Realtek Card, a Broadcom wireless card (Essentially the same thing as a Dell Truemobile 1390 or an Atheros 5424 card), A Yukon Gigabit Ethernet card (88E8053), with standard devices hooked to it (hard drive, etc) via ICH7. This is all built inside of a Quanta laptop casing.

    This is what Apple hardware is. Some may still see it as different, but I sure don't since my dell laptop has almost identical specs. And since Apple uses such an open source friendly license (http://www.opensource.apple.com/apsl/) I have easily ported linux and freebsd drivers to work on OS X. I have purchased a retail copy of leopard. I guess I am breaking the law, right? No, just the EULA. Why am I doing this? Simply to bring a good, friendly, stable, unix OS to my own computer. None of this requires pirating software

    FYI, we've already completed a way to install OS X on a PC without altering the original Leopard retail Disc. So people can essentially go out, buy a copy of Leopard, and install it on a PC after booting off of a USB device that loads up the kernel extensions for their own PC hardware. All open source, all following APSL.

    Also note that this is all homebrew stuff, none is earning any money off of it, and most of it is open source. This is why Psystar isn't really supported at all when it comes to the people who are putting their heart into this project.

  24. Re:Shrink Wrap licenses by gyranthir · · Score: 2, Informative
  25. Re:Hope they lose, but not sure I'd buy it anyway by mmeister · · Score: 2, Insightful

    I assume you also just buy the upgrades of Creative Suite and Office even though you've never owned those before. After all you paid for something, so you should be able to do as you damn will please.

    The retail box is an UPGRADE. Now, perhaps if folks don't mind paying $300-$400 for a FULL RETAIL COPY, then Apple might consider selling it to you w/o regards to you already having Mac OS on your machine.