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Linux's Security Through Obscurity

An anonymous reader writes "The age-old full disclosure debate has been raging again, this time in no other place than at the foundations of the open-source flagship GNU/Linux operating system: within the Linux kernel itself. It beggars belief, but even Linux creator, Linus Torvalds, has advocated against the sort of openness on which Linux has thrived, arguing that security fixes to the kernel should be obscured in changelogs, saying 'If it's not a very public security issue already, I don't want a simple "git log + grep" to help find it.' Unfortunately, it's not kernel exploit writers who need to grep the changelog in order to find kernel vulnerabilities. On the contrary, it's downstream distributors who rely on changelog information in order to decide when to patch the kernels of their distributions, in order to keep their users safe."

215 comments

  1. The idealistic young become the cynical old. by HungryHobo · · Score: 4, Interesting

    And so the cycle continues.

    The thing is that while security through obscurity is a fools game it can also hurt your users to publish exact details of the security vulnerabilities you've found in your own product before many of your users have had a chance to patch the problem.

    1. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by neuromancer23 · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Get off my lawn!" - Linus Torvalds

    2. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by fictionpuss · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The thing is that while security through obscurity is a fools game it can also hurt your users to publish exact details of the security vulnerabilities you've found in your own product before many of your users have had a chance to patch the problem.

      Surely though, the people who are looking to take advantage of security vulnerabilities, are generally the ones who already have a financial motivation to do so? The people who already have their own dark networks to share or buy and sell vulnerabilities?

      Won't they still do this even if it becomes harder to decipher changelogs? The only thing changing then, is that it'll take longer for regular users to see the danger.

    3. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by dotancohen · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Read the replies. Linus is not advocating security through obscurity. He just doesn't want a big flashing sign "SECURITY" on security-related bugfixes. He doesn't want them to stand out in any way at all.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    4. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by dch24 · · Score: 5, Informative
      Realistically, this article is light on the quotes of Linus because the article is trying to make a big deal out of Linus' words "I personally consider security bugs to be just 'normal bugs'. I don't cover them up, but I also don't have any reason what-so-ever to think it's a good idea to track them and announce them as something special."

      At that point, slashdot and schneier.com are just trolling. Read the whole email I quote above:

      We went through this discussion a couple of weeks ago, and I had absolutely zero interest in explaining it again.

      I personally don't like embargoes. I don't think they work. That means that I want to fix things asap. But that also means that there is never a time when you can "let people know", except when it's not an issue any more, at which point there is no _point_ in letting people know any more.

      So I personally consider security bugs to be just "normal bugs". I don't cover them up, but I also don't have any reason what-so-ever to think it's a good idea to track them and announce them as something special.

      So there is no "policy". Nor is it likely to change.

      It's a flamebait email thread. Linus has harsh words for BSD. Nobody ever said Linus doesn't do that -- but this is not security through obscurity.

      His take on security issues is simply: they're bugs. Deal with it.

    5. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Tupper · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Yeah, he thinks security bugs are just like regular bugs. But he's wrong. Most bugs don't bite most users--- the ones that don't can be ignored. Very few people can ignore security bugs--- they bite everyone. The chance I need a random bugfix is very small; if I don't need it, I don't want it. The chance I want a security bugfix is almost 100%.

    6. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Hatta · · Score: 1

      I want a big flashing sign saying "SECURITY" on security related bug-fixes. How else am I going to know that it's important to upgrade?

      Most kernel fixes offer me nothing, it's very important that these bug fixes are marked so I know that they're urgent and not to be ignored like most other kernel fixes.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    7. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by dotancohen · · Score: 2, Interesting

      The chance I need a random bugfix is very small; if I don't need it, I don't want it. The chance I want a security bugfix is almost 100%.

      And where will the manpower for triaging every bug for possible exploits come from? Not all security-related bugs are easily identifiable as such. And even if they were, and then they were marked as such, do you really want the changelog easily greppable by them?

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    8. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by MadMidnightBomber · · Score: 0, Offtopic

      http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7451/poster68251050mx9.jpg

      What did the poor openBSD devs do to deserve this?

      --
      "It doesn't cost enough, and it makes too much sense."
    9. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by BPPG · · Score: 1

      He's not announcing his security bugs, but at the same time he's not using deceit or obfuscation to hide them. After a certain amount of time he might release his private notes on what's not already well known by then, but he has no real reason to at the moment. No point in punishing those who haven't upgraded.

      --
      What's the value of information that you don't know?
    10. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by gmack · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Congratulations your exactly the reason Linus doesn't want a big flashing "Security" sign.

      Linus' point was that most bugs can be potential security problems and if you ignore anything but security fixes you risk not patching in the case of a bug being discovered exploitable after the fix goes into the kernel.

    11. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by TheGreek · · Score: 4, Funny

      Not all security-related bugs are easily identifiable as such. And even if they were, and then they were marked as such, do you really want the changelog easily greppable by them?

      "Dear God, won't somebody please think of the children?"

    12. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by richlv · · Score: 1

      first, i guess the reasoning here is to openly mark bugs already known to be security related as such.

      second, really, this is about "us" being able to easily understand when we really, really should upgrade the kernel. even if did read full kernel changelogs, i wouldn't be able to understand which commits are security related. so i would rely on somebody to do that AND publicise it, at which point it gets more publicity than simply marking it in the changelog would have provided.

      i'd argue that by not making them stand out will only create more hype - and for a good reason.
      one thing i can see the motivation behind - not marking a fix as a security related until it has been developed, somewhat tested and maybe even a new kernel version is released.

      --
      Rich
    13. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by sukotto · · Score: 5, Insightful

      In the same thread he also says "So as far as I'm concerned, 'disclosing' is the fixing of the bug. It's the 'look at the source' approach."

      I don't see any security by obscurity going on here. He fixes the bug, and tells you in the changelog what the bug was.

      What he's NOT doing is announcing in advance how to exploit the bug.

      So why are so many people getting agitated about this?

      --
      Come play free flash games on Kongregate!
    14. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by spankymm · · Score: 5, Insightful

      He's right - they're just bugs. Where he isn't right is about OpenBSD - security is a by-product of fixing bugs. They don't just fix the bugs, but when a new class of bug is identified the whole source tree is scanned for that type of bug - both kernel *and* user-land. But then Linux is just a kernel, isn't it?

      --
      http://cafepress.com/spankymm - for the Masturbating Monkey in you!
    15. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by ShibaInu · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Don't THEY have the source code, since the kernel is free? How about a simple diff? Seems to me that if a malicious programmer is bothering to grep the changelog, just looking at the code changes isn't THAT much of a stretch? If Linux is "free" as in speech, keep it that way.

    16. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by dotancohen · · Score: 5, Funny

      "Dear God, won't somebody please think of the children?"

      Actually, as a kernel issue, this affects all the system threads.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    17. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by inode_buddha · · Score: 1
      "Surely though, the people who are looking to take advantage of security vulnerabilities, are generally the ones who already have a financial motivation to do so"

      I bet a fair bunch in the pool you selected do it just for the hell of it. Also I think Linus and the distributors nee to take a vacation.

      --
      C|N>K
    18. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Maybe it's light on quotes because they wanted people to actually read the links included in the mail, and not have to repeat the huge amount of information already discussed?

    19. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by dotancohen · · Score: 1

      even if did read full kernel changelogs, i wouldn't be able to understand which commits are security related. so i would rely on somebody to do that AND publicise it, at which point it gets more publicity than simply marking it in the changelog would have provided.

      That's what your distro does. Unless you are rolling your own, in which case, it is up to you to read the entire changelog and understand it.

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    20. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by xtracto · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Yeah, he thinks security bugs are just like regular bugs. But [I think] he's wrong.

      There, fixed it for you. The fact is that just because from your personal point of view a bug that is potentially useful to gain unauthorized rights does not mean that everybody sees it that way.

      From what I have read about Linus, he is a very pragmatic guy. For him, a security bug is just another bug in the code (and in a simplistic way, it really is true).

      Some people will be more concerned with those bugs, others will be concerned with bugs that reduce the performance of the OS, others will be more interested in bugs that reduce the reliability (as in, crashing every so often, etc).

      The fact is that there are lots of people already classifying bugs, I think what Linus is saying is that he does not consider the job of the kernel guys to do such kiind of classification.

      For them, it is just another bug that must be seen.

      --
      Ubuntu is an African word meaning 'I can't configure Debian'
    21. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by frodo+from+middle+ea · · Score: 3, Interesting

      The problem arises when you are using Linux in environments which must meet certain Government (SOX etc) , Industry standard (PCI etc) requirements on security. To meet these requirements you must routinely audit your systems and when you audit your systems, you need to classify security related bugs (vulnerabilities ) found, and having clearly marked security related bugs, will help these auditors/tools do a better job. May be for a kernel developer , security related bugs are on the same level as any other bugs, but for an end user of the Linux system, it will definitely be the most important bug. Otherwise how are Linux vendors supposed to create security-fix only updates ? Or do you expect every one to blindly upgrade the kernel every time a new point release comes out ?

      --
      for the last time people, I am "frodo from middle eaRTH", not "middle eaST".
    22. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by gmack · · Score: 1

      It's funny how well that doesn't work for them. I still remember the number of bugs that were suddenly discovered in openSSH right after the Linux distros switched over to it.

    23. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by richlv · · Score: 1

      this assumes that only large distributions will exist in near future.
      imagine that somebody has to read full changelogs for ALL packages (included in the distro)... that's just not realistic and insane.

      --
      Rich
    24. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "The chance I need a random bugfix is very small" is it really so if a bug keeps corupting your data on your hardrive or keeps crashing your machine, small random bugs can do alot of strange things

    25. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      99% of the bugs are a security problem.

    26. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by spankymm · · Score: 2

      In the 'portable' version of openssh?

      --
      http://cafepress.com/spankymm - for the Masturbating Monkey in you!
    27. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by gmack · · Score: 4, Interesting

      In both. There were some that were Linux only but quite a few affected OpenBSD as well.

      It's not that they didn't do a good job and they clearly did a much better job than the SSH daemon they replaced it's just that the Linux distros adopting it increased it's userbase by a lot and as a side affect increased the the number of people who saw a need to look at the code.

    28. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 1

      Won't they still do this even if it becomes harder to decipher changelogs? The only thing changing then, is that it'll take longer for regular users to see the danger.

      Bang on, what's exactly the technical difficulty in scripting something that deciphers vulnerabilities (e.g. struct leaks) from a changelog ? It may take a few days, but once it's written you'll have the same problem. So in the end you punish the regular users and give the ones you target a fun project to work on.

      --
      "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
    29. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by NickFortune · · Score: 3, Insightful

      At that point, slashdot and schneier.com are just trolling

      Umm.... the schneier article is almost seven years old and discussing apparently discusses a release of the 2.2 kernel. I think the article was referenced purely as summary of security-through-obscurity issues, rather than an attack on Linus.

      --
      Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton!
    30. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by VdG · · Score: 1

      Things are nowhere near as bad as I remember from my distant youth, but it's still the case that one of the biggest sources of bugs is fixes.
      I'm in favour of keeping systems up to date - although I can be a bit remiss with my systems at home - but I like to stick to fix packages, especially for the servers at work. I'm only going to apply individiual fixes if they're for a problem which is actually affecting my users, or one which might. Security fixes are chief amongst those, particularly since there are audit requirements to keep patched and potential legal consequences if we don't.
      If bugs are not adequately classified I can't chose which ones to apply. In all liklihood, I'd choose "none" rather than "all" of them.

      I don't need or want to know the nitty gritty of what the bug is. Just how serious the potential impact is.

    31. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by rgviza · · Score: 2, Insightful

      Actually he has a good point in that you don't want to just go blindly patching everything the day the patch comes out. A lot of patches are trivial and fix hardware that has nothing to do with you. This can lead to downtime if the patch causes a new bug.

      You can break an otherwise healthy system with a bunch of patches you don't need. By the same token if you don't patch a security issue right away it can lead to system compromise.

      Therefore full disclosure of the security issues a patch fixes is necessary. Any system admin worth his salt knows it's a bad idea to just go around fixing stuff if it isn't broken. It can cause you to lose your job.

      If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Without knowledge of what you are fixing and why, you are playing Russian roulette. If you tell your CIO you installed a kernel patch and broke critical systems "just because", he's not going to like that answer.

      If you tell him your server got comprimised because you didn't install an important security update because you didn't know it was a security update, this would cause you to possibly lose your job.

      If you say to your CIO "I have to install every kernel patch, because it's linux and they never tell us what they are doing and why, so if it breaks, don't blame me." You CIO may say "This isn't working out, move to Sun or AIX." after it breaks critical systems more than once.

      If you run all the scenarios disclosure starts to make sense if you are an administrator or user, the people who a lack of information affects the most.

      Without administrators or users, you got nuthin'.

      Disclosure doesn't necessarily need to be full specific disclosure. Linus just needs to say "Install this patch because it fixes a security problem, but I'm not telling you what it is."

      We don't care what it is. If we are told we need to install a release because it fixes an important security issue, we will. We don't need to know what that security issue is.

      -Viz

      --
      Don't kid yourself. It's the size of the regexp AND how you use it that counts.
    32. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by dougmc · · Score: 1

      All bugs bite everyone (unless they're a bug that only happens on certain hardware or software or under certain conditions, of course.)

      Security bugs are important, yes, but so are other bugs. So there's a bug that allows a local user to be come root, and there's a bug that will occasionally trash my xfs filesystem. Guess which bug is more important to me to fix? The only case where I might feel differently would be if I ran a general use shell account box, in which case I'd probably be screaming for both fixes rather than screaming for one and asking nicely for the other. (And to be fair, for a general use shell box, I'd probably go OpenBSD rather than Linux anyways.)

      Just because a bug has security implications, that doesn't mean it suddenly becomes more important than all other bugs that don't.

    33. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I regularly don't apply security fixes because they don't apply to me. And who decides whether it is security or not? The random bugs can be just as much as a security concern if properly exploited.

      Linus is just saying a bug is a bug, and theres no reason wasting time in categorizing them. Spend that time fixing them.

    34. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Interesting

      But you can't expect the kernel developers to provide that service.
      One point Linus makes is: Only a few of the security related bugs are recognized as such when fixing them. After all they got more important things to do than checking every fixed bug for possible security impacts.
      From what you said you'd be installing just those fixes that have a [security] tag. So you'd keep your system open to various vulnerabilities because you figure: Not [security] -> don't need.
      That's exactly what Linus wants to prevent (maybe read the discussion ;-))

      regards

      ac

    35. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by mabhatter654 · · Score: 3, Informative

      Linus doesn't want "security only" fixes.. because then EVERY SINGLE OLD VERSION becomes a target...immediately!

      Which is better to say:

      "fixed bug #23456 overflow at line #1234 causing dumaflopper() to return incorrect result"

      or

      "fixed security hole #23456 -- firefox calling line #1234 with variable name = "wiggle" caused dumaflopper() to skip password check"

      It's better to quietly fix the bugs, identify where they are and what you fixed.. we fixed 25 overflow errors today -- but don't tell which ones tie to a known security error.. don't make cracker's work too easy.

      Many bugs are not "security" problems because nobody has figured out how to break it yet. Just because a bug does not match a security notice does not mean it couldn't be a problem after the patch is released!

    36. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by menace3society · · Score: 3, Insightful

      What Linus IS doing trolling. Plain and simple.

      There is a policy, or at least a strong convention, in place for Linux that bug fix commits should explain in a fairly detailed fashion what was the bug was and/or how it was fixed. However, most of the security fixes are vague and general.

      Someone pointed this out, and first Linus said there was no "policy." Someone pointed out that, in fact, there was. Then Linus said that wasn't the point, the issue was that he didn't want script kiddies to be able to find potential exploits easily. So someone pointed out that this means that individuals and distros can't tell whether a given bugfix is urgent or not, and Linus replied that the question whether a bug is related to security or not is difficult to answer. Just to make sure that everyone knew he was trolling hard, he flamed OpenBSD for having a better security record than Linux.

      It boggles my mind, the extent to which Linus is able to spew the most outrageous bullshit and Linux nutriders will buy it. He's an excellent programmer and deserving of his reputation, but the cult of hero worship that surrounds him drags down the whole community of Linux users (and by extension, Free Software in general).

    37. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Goaway · · Score: 1

      But that also means that there is never a time when you can "let people know", except when it's not an issue any more, at which point there is no _point_ in letting people know any more.

      Because people always use the newest version of something at all times?

    38. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Insightful

      No, there was only one openssh bug around that time, the rest were PAM/linux specific issues. And that one openssh bug had nothing to do with it being more widely adopted, it was just an ordinary "bug found in relatively new software" situation.

    39. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by cparker15 · · Score: 1

      And even if they were, and then they were marked as such, do you really want the changelog easily greppable by them?

      In a word, yes.

      The changelog is useful. Obscuring it or leaving out relevant information in fear of someone abusing it is silly.

      While we're at it, why don't be ban all “hacking tools” (like nmap or nessus or gcc), guns, knives, etc.? While it's true that they can be useful, they can also be abused!

      --
      Have you driven a fnord... lately?

      You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.

    40. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Evets · · Score: 3, Insightful

      "fixed bug #23456 overflow at line #1234 causing dumaflopper() to return incorrect result - known security problem" or

      "fixed bug #23456 overflow at line #1234 causing dumaflopper() to return incorrect result - important update"

      would be more appropriate IMO. Letting people know where the security fixes are is important in getting the changes widely distributed.

      By hiding it, you're only protecting yourself from second rate hackers. The first rate hackers found the problem and began taking advantage of it well before the development team was aware the problem existed.

      Further, a better community understanding and acceptance of insecurity would be an even better idea. Too many people out there think "I've secured this box, I know what I'm doing, nobody can get in" when in fact there are very few such boxes out there and the real security layer being utilized is the fact that there are so many other machines out there that are easier to control. If you know you are vulnerable the mindset changes.

      Example: "E-mail has lots of viruses, so I don't open up strange email. Now that I have Norton, it protects me so I open up strange email if it has a subject that draws me in." That's a mindset a lot of people have. Norton gives them the mindset they are secure, but the reality is far from that. If everyone knew how insecure they really were, less people would open up spam or virus-laden spam.

    41. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by vic-traill · · Score: 0

      From what I have read about Linus, he is a very pragmatic guy.

      Hmmm - I heard he was big on portability.

      /groan

      --
      [17] Leary, T., White, C., Wood, P. R., Bhabha, W. D., and Wirth, N. Lambda calculus considered harmful. In Proceedings
    42. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by TheSHAD0W · · Score: 4, Insightful

      So, some random - but short, say within 3 days - amount of time later, post a message saying "security fix implemented - please update".

      That will alert folks that there's a security issue without spotlighting the problem.

    43. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Evets · · Score: 1

      one thing i can see the motivation behind - not marking a fix as a security related until it has been developed, somewhat tested and maybe even a new kernel version is released

      That sounds good on the surface, and certainly a lot of people have that mentality, but in the real open source world if you hide the fact that a bug is security related, you are dramatically slimming down the developer base that would put together a fix for it. I would argue that openly specifying security issues would increase the level of knowledge the general populous has about how the kernel works and also increase the size of the development community.

    44. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by gmack · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Wow you have managed to go on a complete rant while ignoring everything I said.

      What do you think your CIO will say if you get rooted and your answer is "well there was a bugfix but it wasn't a known vulnerability when the patch came out so I didn't install it"?

      Bugfixes are bugfixes and even in the case of security bugs you should be testing before deployment. Don't know if you need to install it? Well just read the freaking changelog and see if it affects a driver or subsystem your using. Even the Payment Card Industry standards require you to test security updates before deployment.

      Even if it's not a security bug you may very well want to install the patch to avoid a possible crash when your not expecting it. Better a controlled outage than a crash at 4 am.

    45. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      A bug is a bug. Most bugs, if enough time was spent on them, could be used as an exploit. A bug is simply the code operating in a fashion that the developers never considered and create issues of some form. Any bug that crashes or has the potential to crash a program is potentially a security bug.

      They all put the machine in a state that is unknown to the developer and the user. Update all software when the update includes any bug fix. New features only, then go ahead and wait.

    46. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Thinking you are going to help by playing with the wording (obscuring) any type of bug is a waste of time, know why?

      They are still in the change log ;)

    47. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by gweihir · · Score: 0, Troll

      He doesn't want them to stand out in any way at all.

      Ant tyat is where he does not get it. They have to stand out, clearly and easy to find. Anything else helps the attackers more than the defenders. Linus unfortunately has not a clue about this.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    48. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by soliptic · · Score: 2, Interesting

      By hiding it, you're only protecting yourself from second rate hackers. The first rate hackers found the problem and began taking advantage of it well before the development team was aware the problem existed.

      I would say by hiding the fact a bug is a security issue would only protect you from third rate hackers. If first rate ones found the problem before the devs did, second rate ones are capable of looking through all the 'innoccously' labeled bugfixes and thinking, "hmm, overflow at line #1234 is it? Let's take a look at what goes on in dumaflopper() then, perhaps it'll be useful for my evil purposes, we'll see...", tracing through the source and working out the nature of the bug and how it could be exploited (or not). Which would leave those who need it spelt out whether and how a bug is exploitable on a third tier.

      (This isn't intended as a "corrective" let alone combatitive post, btw. I've noticed often on slashdot people seem to take every post that way, so I shall disclaim it's not such thing, just thinking aloud really...)

    49. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by vic-traill · · Score: 1

      Okay, so I got mod'd -1 Overrated by someone who doesn't know what a pragma directive is and thought I was taking a run at Linus? Sheesh ...

      Should you have to pass a test to get mod points on /.? I'll post without a Karma Bonus here 'cause this is definitely offtopic.

      --
      [17] Leary, T., White, C., Wood, P. R., Bhabha, W. D., and Wirth, N. Lambda calculus considered harmful. In Proceedings
    50. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by TeraCo · · Score: 1

      If you don't know enough to be able to read the notes and determine whether a given fix is important to you or not, you should be installing everything.

      Whether it's a security fix or a 'Occasionally system would start writing /dev/random across the filesystem' bug, if you don't know what they're talking about - install the damned thing or (preferably) realise that you need an expert in this job and hire someone.

      --
      Not Meta-modding due to apathy.
    51. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "The problem arises when you are using Linux in environments which must meet certain Government (SOX etc)"

      Then you are not using "Linux"; you are using "Some Linux Distribution". Let it be, if the case arise, the "Some Linux Distribution" the one dealing with the problem, not some abstract concept you have in your mind but not really anywhere within your company.

      "To meet these requirements you must routinely audit your systems and when you audit your systems, you need to classify security related bugs (vulnerabilities ) found, and having clearly marked security related bugs"

      To the most of my knowledge at least SUSE and Red Hat explicitly do this, and Debian too, only implicitly, by only allowing security fixes on their Stable branch, so what's the problem, again?

      "will help these auditors/tools do a better job."

      Better job... than what? Do you want an easy to grasp concept, since you seem to be so much in need of them? Here it is: all and every bug is a security related bug; it's only that for some of them we didn't figure how to exploit them... yet.

      "May be for a kernel developer , security related bugs are on the same level as any other bugs"

      Quite a sane approach, indeed.

      "but for an end user of the Linux system"

      An "end user of the Linux system" DOES NOT USE Linus' kernel from kernel.org. If you are using Linux now, just execute on the command line the following: `uname -sr`.

      Does it say "Linux 2.6.26" or "Linux 2.6.26-git6". It doesn't, does it? Then you are not using the product Linus Torvalds is talking about, so your cautions are moot.

      "Otherwise how are Linux vendors supposed to create security-fix only updates ?"

      By doing their damn job. Right at the launch of the 2.6 branch, Linus himself stated that his branch of code was no more apt for "end user" consumption and that it were the distributions' job to stabilize it and add or delete functionality at leisure (not that this was a thing that the distribution were not already doing).

      "Or do you expect every one to blindly upgrade the kernel every time a new point release comes out ?"

      I myself do that (or almost): as soon as the Debian team tells me that there's a kernel upgrade on Stable, I (almost) blindly apply it. Were I using SUSE or Red Hat I'd surely do the same anyway. All in all, you are talking about things you just unknow or are trying to be a clever troll, your choice.

    52. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by elronxenu · · Score: 2, Insightful

      But that also means that there is never a time when you can "let people know", except when it's not an issue any more, at which point there is no _point_ in letting people know any more.

      Actually there is a point. Not everybody runs the latest kernel all the time. And so reporting a fixed security problem is not a matter of "we fixed another security problem for you" but rather "all versions of (linux) between 2.6.xx and 2.6.yy are vulnerable to (problem description) and so please upgrade to 2.6.yy+1."

      However, Linus' role is to manage the huge volume of changes going into the kernel, and making a big song and dance about security fixes will detract from performing that role. Somebody else should do that, and it's often vendors, and that seems quite adequate to me. I regularly see Debian Security advisories about kernel 2.6.18 and upgraded packages. I don't run those kernels myself, but the updates probably come from backported fixes applied in later 2.6.x kernels. Therefore if I run the latest 2.6.x kernel I am safe from all vulnerabilities fixed before 2.6.x was released.

      I think the kernel developers' attitude is that they don't want you to run 2.6.18 or 2.6.22 or whatever; they want you to run the latest released kernel. If there's a bug in 2.6.18 (there are many, apparently) their advice to you will be to upgrade to 2.6.26, or the latest kernel in the series you are running (2.6.25.11 if running 2.6.25, 2.4.36.6 if still running a 2.4 kernel).

    53. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "this assumes that only large distributions will exist in near future."

      Exactly, and that's my opinion too. But this is no news: this is the predicted outcome from the very day Torvalds said (by the early days of the 2.6 branch) that he was focused no more on producing stable code but on pushing forward kernel development. Linus' branch has been of no direct use for public comsumption for some few years now.

      "imagine that somebody has to read full changelogs for ALL packages (included in the distro)... that's just not realistic and insane."

      It may be is "not realistic and insane", but that's exactly what happens. The body that makes so it's called "Linux distribution". Probably what you meant was that no *single* *person* is expected to read full changelogs. So what? I bet no single person has ever read all changelogs for Boeing 747 development but still it flights, doesn't it?

    54. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by 10101001+10101001 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      Where he isn't right is about OpenBSD - security is a by-product of fixing bugs.

      Security is a by-product of a philosophy of "what could go wrong and how do we prevent it proactively"? To that end, I'd say OpenBSD still has a way to go with security. While it might be hard to go through and audit tons of code, it's much harder to create the necessary* provably correct code that one can be sure things can't go wrong. But the OpenBSD philosophy doesn't seem interested in exploring such long-distance considerations, so I'd say it's in the same boat as Linux and Windows. It's just more proactive on the code auditing front.

      *It's very difficult to define "necessary" in the scope of a computer system and security. What can go wrong is certainly contextual for many people, so it's quite possible that multiple proofs under multiple well-defined contexts would have to be adopted with people choosing the context best suited to them to obtain the desired security. This, of course, assumes that it's at all possible to prove enough code (I doubt all code needs to be proved) to be certain that, at least within the context of the code**, there is no security problem. AFAIK, we're still very far away from knowing if it's possible.

      **The hardware can undermine your code, but you can make allowances for defects in hardware you know about. If the hardware isn't proven correct/consistent, then you will always be on shakey ground no matter how proven your code is. We're still a long ways away from even this. And something like TPM is unlikely to solve the problem.

      --
      Eurohacker European paranoia, gun rights, and h
    55. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I dunno, regular, solid release cycle going back several years...
      Consistent focus on goals...
      Failure to drink the SELinux security kool-aid...

    56. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by mabhatter654 · · Score: 2, Interesting

      so what happens when the "second rate" hacker finds a way to exploit a bug you didn't rate "security"? Now you've identified bugs, but developers don't check all bugs they catch for security problems, they just fix them. My point is that a bug is a bug, you should patch all of them and run good tests before putting it into production to prove the whole patch works rather than trying to pick and choose parts of the regularly supported patches.

      Along the same line, Linus doesn't want to support "security" and "bug fix" patch sets all over the place... the whole point is to move forward... push forward and sometimes take lumps rather than supporting "half patches". Linux developers don't work that way, they patch what's in front of them when they find it. They may have found other dependent bugs when fixing security issues. To just get "security" issues is a whole different kind of work and different cycle.

    57. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by mysidia · · Score: 1

      Linus doesn't want "security only" fixes.. because then EVERY SINGLE OLD VERSION becomes a target...immediately!

      It only effects what the casual crackers do.

      The dedicated kernel crackers are carefully monitoring kernel changelogs for fixes to bugs in a previous release.

      Every bugfix potentially addresses a bug that has security implications.

      Even if the kernel developers didn't imagine the security implication of the bug, there may be one to be discovered.

      And the hard-core crackers will search for an indirect implication of the fixed bug, OR for a new bug introduced by the bugfix.

      (A new bug accidentally introduced may have severe security implications, whereas the original bug wasn't exploitable.)

    58. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by MidnightBrewer · · Score: 1

      Sorry, but I disagree with Linus here. If you see Linux as merely a hobbyist operating system not to be taken seriously, then sure, all bugs are equal. However, if you actually aspire to having your kernel adopted as a serious replacement for even just mainstream computing, then you're going to have to accept the fact that your users want their data secure and their systems hardened against hacking.

      Either Linus is being naive here or genuinely lacks the ego to see Linux widely adopted - the latter possibility is highly unlikely, or he would have quit by now.

      If he were to include the bugs in the normal "this has been fixed" fix list with a description of what was wrong, then it will be, by definition, a patch to a security exploit, and he will have done his job.

      Is his policy, or lack of one, security through obscurity? Yes, but more through his determination to pretend that it doesn't matter rather than any serious attempt to deceive his users. The only person he's fooling right now is himself.

      --
      "Give a man fire, and he'll be warm for a day; set a man on fire, and he'll be warm for the rest of his life
    59. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by richlv · · Score: 1

      well, i doubt that even for large distribution every single commit to every package is verified by somebody. that's a huge workload, and it duplicates efforts on the same software, where opensource models were supposed to promote collaboration and workload sharing (this does not include competing packages, which is a different aspect of collaboration/competition theme :) )

      --
      Rich
    60. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by IvyKing · · Score: 1

      Where he isn't right is about OpenBSD - security is a by-product of fixing bugs.

      One other thing impressed me about the OpenBSD mindset - that they port OpenBSD to several different architectures in order to improve the chances that they will catch some of the more subtle bugs. Case in point was the 33 year old bug in 'yacc' that was caught because of errors reported in the Sparc64 port.

    61. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by scervisiae · · Score: 1

      Given that git checkins have unique hash signatures, it seems conceptually easy for someone, or a group of someones, to set up an independent website/database tagging checkins and changelogs with additional more information, like "Denial of Service", "exploitable by root", "exploitable by non-root", etc.

    62. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Lennie · · Score: 1

      I think this illustrates it even better:
      "Because I see no point. Quite often, we don't even realize some random bug could have been a security issue."

      "The issue is that I think it's then _misleading_ to mark that kind of commit specially, when I actually believe that it's in the minority.

      If people think that they are safer for only applying (or upgrading to) certain patches that are marked as being security-specific, they are
      missing all the ones that weren't marked as such. Making them even _believe_ that the magic security marking is meaningful is simply a lie.
      It's not going to be.

      So why would I add some marking that I most emphatically do not believe in myself, and think is just mostly security theater?"

      --
      New things are always on the horizon
    63. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Because we like our "fox" style news. ./ is no better than the rest.

    64. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by msromike · · Score: 1

      Hackers don't exploit insecure systems. They may bypass security systems if they are in the way or if they are curious. You probably meant cracker.

    65. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by makomk · · Score: 1

      From what I recall, Linus is generally quite good at making sure stuff like data corruption and filesystem corruption bugs gets clearly labelled as such. Security bugs, it would seem, aren't being treated so well.

    66. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by laejoh · · Score: 0

      OB. xkcd :)

    67. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by gweihir · · Score: 1

      It is not that easy. Many organisations have to evakluate every patch before applying. If prioritising security fixes is difficukt, because they cannot easily be identified, that means Systems will be run in an insecure status. Also, evaluating functionality problems and security issues require differend mind-sets and experiences. Another thing that is clearly known in the IT security industry, but Linus does not get it.

      --
      Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
    68. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by aces_of_clubs · · Score: 1

      Linus is intelligent but his ego is bigger. I believe his concern is more about that finding bugs in "Security Media Circus" let people think that Linux isnt that secure or it is bad coded. Microsoft had learnt about. Show the truth is better. "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free." John 8:32

    69. Re:The idealistic young become the cynical old. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      fortunately this is an academic argument since there are no security flaws in linux

  2. What the... by gparent · · Score: 5, Insightful

    Linux users typically praise open source software on the basis that vulnerabilities can be found easily and patched by anybody who possesses the knowledge to do so, making open source software more secure. Why should this change now?

    1. Re:What the... by HungryHobo · · Score: 5, Insightful

      As the userbase shifts towards more mainstream users and away from the technically abled the percentage of users to whom the "who possesses the knowledge" actually applies drops and the number who are likely to be slow updating their systems goes up.This changes the game a little. I'm a supporter of the open model but I can see where they're coming from.

    2. Re:What the... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Oh! Does that mean that it's the Year of the Linux Desktop now? :)

    3. Re:What the... by hcmtnbiker · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Linux users typically praise open source software on the basis that vulnerabilities can be found easily and patched by anybody who possesses the knowledge to do so, making open source software more secure. Why should this change now?

      This has nothing to do with the openness of the source code or the disclosure of vulnerabilities. Linus just doesn't want big proof of concepts for exploits in the last version of the kernel(which there will of course be people still running) to end up in this version. He doesn't want to aid script kiddies. Anyone can still find and patch parts of the code base, there's no move away from that.

      --
      If i had one dollar for every brain you dont have, i would have $1.
    4. Re:What the... by atlep · · Score: 2, Insightful

      It doesn't really matter that the percentage drops. As long as the absolute number of people actually fixing bugs don't drop, the rate of bug fixing will remain constant.

      The good thing about "anybody can find and fix the bugs" has never meant "I personally can fix the bugs". It means "somebody out there can fix bugs without having to be part of the developer team".

    5. Re:What the... by Fri13 · · Score: 1

      So the openess has affect for security.

      New version patched +250 bugs = +250 bugs less
      Last version has not patched = +250 bugs open

      Those who dont update OS to new version, has those +250 bugs. Those who update the OS to newest version, has +250 bugs less.

      Same thing goes for Microsoft Windows NT. +250 bugs closed on next update = those who dont update, has +250 bugs in OS.

      What is the difference? Because Linux is open source OS, you can check out what is changed and exploit it if you have skills. Linus does not want those proof of concepts what you talked right. But it is easier to do because code is open.

      But, because code is open, there is more possibilities to find/close/use bugs because there is more change to see source.

      So, actually it is not about open source, but still it is.

    6. Re:What the... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Look around. During this year, I have for the first time in my life seen news paper adds where Linux was mentioned and I've seen a computer which had Linux pre-installed in it in a store, right there on display.

      So yes, this really starts to look like a year of the Linux Desktop.

    7. Re:What the... by brkello · · Score: 1

      That logic fails. So the percentage of users who would look at the code goes down, but the number of the people who are looking at the code goes up thus allowing the chance to catch more bugs. There is no reason to put in flashing lights that announce a security exploit was patched. It's a bug and should be dealt with as such. People who aren't going to update their systems..well, that's their own problem and that is going to be true no matter what OS they use.

      --
      Support a great indie game: http://www.abaddon360.com
    8. Re:What the... by BlackSnake112 · · Score: 1

      The source will still be there. Just a fix that says : call abc123() had an error when a string was sent to it instead of a float and would cause a stack overflow... would not be there. Maybe he means that explaining exactly how to use a bug might be a bad thing?

    9. Re:What the... by makomk · · Score: 1

      The problem isn't the bugs getting fixed, the problem is making sure that all the systems that need the fix get it promptly. This means that the nature and importance of the fix has to be clear to *everyone* who needs to decide whether or not to install it, or systems will be left vulnerable. Most of these people don't have the time or skills to analyse every patch in depth to see what it does and what the impact could be, so good descriptions are important.

  3. Linus does not mean obfuscation by Novus · · Score: 5, Informative
    Note that the quote from Linus continues:

    That said, I don't _plan_ messages or obfuscate them, so "overflow" might well be part of the message just because it simply describes the fix. So I'm not claiming that the messages can never help somebody pinpoint interesting commits to look at, I'm just also not at all interested in doing so reliably.

    He doesn't believe in obfuscating changelogs, just not filling them with security information making it easy to find vulnerable kernels.

    1. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by zebslash · · Score: 1

      But only a diff will tell you where to look for the fix/vulnerability...

    2. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by Hatta · · Score: 1

      How do you know if your kernel has a vulnerability then? If it's passed off as a mere bugfix, you may well decide it's not that important to upgrade your kernel right away.

      --
      Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
    3. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 2, Interesting

      How is that any better? If I need to weigh security against stability, I need to know whether or not a patch fixes a major security bug on production machines or just changes obscure drivers that I don't even use. If I were to see a sudden increase in the number of attempted buffer overflows, I'm gonna want to check for known overflow attacks on the kernel and userspace programs I am administrating.

      My theory? Linus is losing his mind, and he slips too far, we will wind up with a fork of the kernel (NetBSD/OpenBSD style).

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    4. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 0

      I thought all bugs were potential security holes?

    5. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by LO0G · · Score: 2, Informative

      I agree.

      Here's the danger of not identifying security fixes in your patch logs: If a security fix isn't clearly identified, then customers won't necessarily update it.

      I run Windows at work, the IT department there has deployed its own WSUS servers. They only deploy security fixes from Microsoft on those servers (don't ask, it's stupid, but it's what they do). If Microsoft were to hide security fixes in non security updates, then our machines would remain vulnerable to those security bugs.

      The theory that somehow hiding the patches will keep customers safe (or deter the hackers from figuring out the vulnerability) is totally bogus. Even though Microsoft is closed source, security researchers can reverse engineer a working exploit from the binary patches in minutes.

      It's important to flag security fixes as security fixes so that customers know that they need to give them higher priority.

    6. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by von_rick · · Score: 1

      How can diff tell you things that haven't been entered into log files? Its against the law of thermodynamics.

      --

      Face your daemons!

    7. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by somersault · · Score: 1

      A bug that ends up with a computer game character able to jump incredible distances instead of the 'normal' distance doesn't seem like much of a security hole to me. And no, I'm not just talking about Spiderman. A bug is simply anything that causes a program to produce an unintended result, which could be a security exploit, but could just be something perfectly safe, but unexpected (in a bad way, not in a wow-this-AI-is-smart way).

      --
      which is totally what she said
    8. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 1

      Here's the danger of not identifying security fixes in your patch logs: If a security fix isn't clearly identified, then customers won't necessarily update it.

      How well does this hold if the customers know that fixes don't get special tags for having known security implications? Or when there's an intermediary whose job is specifically to handle such things?

    9. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by MadKeithV · · Score: 1

      You can find the code change itself in the diffs, which can tell you exactly what was fixed. Just not always why.

    10. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by gmack · · Score: 2, Interesting

      If you want stability just stay on the current branch your on.. ex 2.6.23.x. No new features will be added only bugfixes. Need to know if you need to apply the patch? Just check the change log to see if the bug is in any subsystem you use.

      Otherwise you risk someone discovering a bug is exploitable after the patch was added to the kernel.

       

    11. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by x2A · · Score: 2, Funny

      I would say that those people are the vulnerability and they're the ones that need patching. Not all vulnerabilities of a system are in the code!

      --
      The revolution will not be televised... but it will have a page on Wikipedia
    12. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by jefu · · Score: 0

      a computer game character able to jump incredible distances

      I thought that the base context of the discussion was kernel and OS level code. In which case almost any bug has the potential to be a security bug at least at a denial-of-service level.

      And I think I'd consider embedding a game character in the kernel to be a bug in and of itself.

    13. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by zebslash · · Score: 0

      If in the code you see a fix that looks like:

      - for (int i=0; i<=bound; i++) {
      + for (int i=0; i<bound; i++) {

      that gives you a good clue a buffer overflow may have been fixed.

    14. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by somersault · · Score: 1

      I wasn't really thinking in a kernel context, was just trying to think of an innocent bug. I'm not familiar with the kernel's code so I'm not sure where the kernel ends and other things begin, but if for example there was a bug that meant that the system time consistently read the time of the clock on the mobo as the actual clock time + 1 second, and wrote to the clock as the system time -1 second, then IMO that wouldn't pose a security risk, but I would still consider it a bug of sorts.

      'Denial of service' (ie something is broken) isn't a security issue unless it is actively caused by an attacker. You don't call the police when your toilet is broken, you call a plumber. If something however is working but can be disabled by a malicious attacker via a bug in the kernel, yes that's a security issue.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    15. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by dougmc · · Score: 1

      I like your broken toilet analogy (which is rare -- I usually hate analogies), but it would have been better if you'd described a bug as your toilet breaking, and a security bug as your neighbor being able to break your toilet at will.

    16. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      innocent bug?

      If you are using a time critical application, making errors as big as one second can cause deaths.

      The point which people are trying to tell to you is, that even bugs that look at first innocent, can cause severe problems on some circumstances. And sometimes innocent bugs turn out to be security bugs.

    17. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by somersault · · Score: 1

      I tried my best - I was actually expecting some smartarse to come up with a way of claiming that a broken toilet was a security risk, perhaps if it meant you had to leave the house to use another toilet, or had to order in some new parts which could be tainted by a man in the middle attack ;)

      --
      which is totally what she said
    18. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by somersault · · Score: 1

      For one thing, if you were using a time critical application, you'd probably have special real-time hardware and kernel modifications, since the standard Linux kernel doesn't do guaranteed real time operation.

      Even if the hypothetical system was running a time critical application with specialised hardware, the point was is that in this case the bug would result in a stable time during runtime, but the system time would always be exactly 1 second out from the hardware clock. If all the time-synced systems were running the same OS then the bug would be 'innocent'. You wouldn't ever notice the bug unless you booted into the BIOS or another OS and checked against a watch synced exactly to the buggy OS.

      Basically this would require 2 bugs to work so it is admittedly very contrived. And it could become an issue in a time critical system if different parts of the system were using different versions of software (which seems like a bad idea anyway). Causing deaths isn't exactly the same as a 'security risk' either, that's a health and safety risk! I just wanted to point out that not all bugs have to be a security problem.

      --
      which is totally what she said
    19. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by Davorama · · Score: 2, Funny

      Haven't you seen Tron?

      --

      Davo -- Free speech, free software, AND free beer.

    20. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by timbrown · · Score: 1

      No, that's an off by one...

      --
      Tim Brown
    21. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "A bug that ends up with a computer game character able to jump incredible distances instead of the 'normal' distance doesn't seem like much of a security hole to me."

      So what? That only means you didn't find a way to exploit it, not that there isn't.

      a) So making use of that bug on an on-line for-the-money game allows me fradulently earn a lot of money? Hummm... who would think of it?
      b) The recent DNS flaw: it has been there for years; it's only now that somebody found a way to make it into a security vulnerability. As I say, that *you* don't see how can it be exploited, it doesn't mean it *can't* be exploited.

      So what we have is:
      a) Linus' branch is a development branch, not apt for the end user, so he says he is not going to pay special attention to some attributedly "security" bugs. Since it's a development branch all he is insterested into are "bugs" and "features" and that's all.
      b) Even if he tried to mark some bugs as "SECURITY" it is for sure it will only give you a false sense of security, because there will be non tagged as "SECURITY" bugs that will be explotaible -it's only that the one writing the log didn't figure how by that time.
      c) If the Linus' branch was meant for stable usage by end users (which is not) and he tagged bugs known to have security implications as "SECURITY" (which he doesn't) he would be opening himself to a legal liability nightmare:
        c.1) Company A sues Linus because since he so liberally marked a bug as "SECURITY" he made too easy for a cracker to get into Company A logical premises by just trying exploits agains all "SECURITY" bugs one after the other. We call it fault of due diligence so we sue you.
        c.2) Company A sues Linus because he didn't see the security implications of a given bug so he didn't mark it as "SECURITY". Not being marked as "SECURITY", Company A didn't apply the patch and then a cracker managed to crack into the premises. Again, Linus is sued for that.
        c.3) Linus marks all bugs as what they are: "bugs". It's up to the "recieving end" to asses how they will impact on their systems and assets. Company A cannot sue now since it's up to them to patch or not to patch without an evaluation of impact from Linus.

    22. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by turbidostato · · Score: 1

      "I just wanted to point out that not all bugs have to be a security problem."

      And everybody else was trying to tell you that that's not the point. Of course that not all bugs *have* to be a security problem. The problem is that you don't know *which* of them will be a security problem.

      Even your -1 +1 second contrieved example is conceiably leading to a security problem:
      Some subsystem notices somehow that system time is off by one second to BIOS time by looking directly on the BIOS reading function (so it doesn't know it gets corrected the moment it's written back). Now, trying to do its best, it takes system time and skews it by the off second. After few hours, the time skewing grows up and since the system is authorized via a Kerberos realm, the time skewing forces a DoS in the best case or allows for a reply attack in the worst.

      An OS is a complex thing and its interactions tend to grow as 2^n, being "n" the number of considered subsystems. There's no way you can cope with all present and future interactions so you can be sure to dismiss *any* security hazard from any bug.

    23. Re:Linus does not mean obfuscation by zebslash · · Score: 1

      ... which is the mark of buffer overflow vulnerabilities (e.g. http://www.securityfocus.com/bid/19204)

  4. It's already fixed right? by rubbsdecvik · · Score: 2, Insightful

    It would seem that if the vulnerability is patched in the change log, then it's fixed. I realize that some may need to run on an older kernel, but if a kernel developer found the vulnerability and fixed it, there is little way of knowing if anyone else (read black hat) has already known about it.

    --
    When single shines the triple sun, What was sundered and undone, Behold! The two made one! ~Rubbs
    1. Re:It's already fixed right? by gmack · · Score: 1

      There is no reason whatsoever to run a non bugfixed kernel. 2.2.x, 2.4.x and every 2.6.x branch since Linus switched over to the new shorter dev cycle are still actively maintained with bugfixes.

  5. Isn't that part of their job? by MikeRT · · Score: 4, Insightful

    On the contrary, it's downstream distributors who rely on changelog information in order to decide when to patch the kernels of their distributions, in order to keep their users safe."

    As long as the information is in there, isn't it part of their job to read through the changelog, read between the lines, and update appropriately? I have no mercy for the commercial groups that do their own distributions, and quite frankly, if they're going to play with the big boys, anyone who is rolling their own distribution should be put the effort into it to read the changelog for the kernel. It's not like some security hole in a fairly obscure or minor piece of software that they're having to look out for.

    1. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 4, Insightful

      You say you have no mercy for commercial distributors, but the truth is that this sort of obscuration will only increase their business. Companies like Red Hat and Novell have the resources to pay people to spend all day reading through changelogs and deciding whether or not a patch is worth applying (in addition to people to are paid to submit patches). Universities may not have those resources, and their computer centers may only have enough time to quickly check a patch for common security fixes using grep. If it becomes impossible to do that, then all that we'll see is an increase in the number of people who buy support from commercial distributors, because they won't be able to support themselves.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    2. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by kipin · · Score: 4, Insightful

      And what exactly is the problem with this method?
      If you don't have the time to perform security maintenance, but someone else does, why shouldn't they be allowed to make a profit for their time?

      --
      If I can not smoke in heaven, then I shall not go. -- Mark Twain
    3. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      So?

      An increase in support revenue to Linux-based companies? Oh no!

    4. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by betterunixthanunix · · Score: 1

      I never said it was a problem. I think it gives credence to free software in a corporate-based society like America.

      --
      Palm trees and 8
    5. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by gmack · · Score: 1

      Under what conditions would a patch not be worth applying? Thanks to the new shorter dev cycle once a kernel is marked stable it doesn't need or get new features.. only bugfixes.

    6. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by MedBob · · Score: 0

      The work of the commercial companies in following changelogs is only in support of the places where they deviate from the "standard" kernel. I believe in the Frankenstein principle. "You create a monster, you take care of it". It's not always wise to create a fork, even a private one, because you are then responsible for it's care and feeding. I don't have a lot of sympathy in this issue, in that some of my largest problems have been where a particular distribution has to do a thing "their way", and by creating a different way, causes me grief. Don't get me wrong. I understand that I chose that particular package of grief. My point is that the option is always there to use the stock kernel. That should be the default unless there are overwhelming reasons not to. (and if so, should you not report a bug to the maintainers?)

    7. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by cyphercell · · Score: 1

      this is exactly the point. The kernel is a software project, bugs are bugs, differentiating security bugs from the rest falls into the hands of those that do security audits. The presumption is that a developer ought to write secure code, when they don't it's a bug. Anything beyond that, is simply put: Not the developers job. The distributions are responsible for translating lower level information to the end user, not Linus.

      --
      Under the influence of Post-Cyberpunk Gonzo Journalism
    8. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      1) If I buy support from a company, I _want_ them to read all the changelog entries! Otherwise I cannot be sure I'm really secure. I _pay_ for that. As Linus said, not only security bugs are security bugs.

      2) If you don't read all the commits, you cannot be sure you are really secure. So if you don't have the resources to do that and you don't want to pay for support, don't patch! Use the latest stable kernel! So simple!

      3) There are community distros out there which contain those patches. CentOS anyone? :)

    9. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You can just use a big distro's kernel on your homebrew/garage kit distro, you know.

      Non-brain-challenged individuals will also notice that nobody from any of the big, and medium distros complained at all. There is a big hint right there that what is being done is NOT a problem for the distros (hit: it really isn't. They just need the stable releases for reasonable coverage, and a dedicated kernel hacker with a damn good security radar for extended coverage -- picking up fixes that nobody noticed should have gone to -stable as well).

    10. Re:Isn't that part of their job? by PastaLover · · Score: 1

      Under what conditions would a patch not be worth applying? Thanks to the new shorter dev cycle once a kernel is marked stable it doesn't need or get new features.. only bugfixes.

      I would think this is completely obvious. New versions of any software program can always include feature regressions.

      What if the new version of linux includes a subtle bug in one of the disk device drivers that cuts your performance by half? What if you are a dedicated hosting company and you rely on that performance? There are often very hard to catch bugs in there that only pop up in certain circumstances. So you rely on the early adopters and the distro testers to find them for you and you wait for them to vet it for you. If all a new kernel version might buy you is slightly better performance and a few features you don't really need, you don't upgrade. It is not worth the risk. If it is a security upgrade, then that equation changes of course.

      That being said, the entire story is moot as it's the distribution maintainers' job to know about security vulnerabilities, many of which are documented in other ways than the changelog.

  6. Completely out of context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 5, Informative

    The article quote is completely out of context, go read the full thread and see what he really said. His main point is that security bugs are like any other bug. He doesn't see the point in putting code that can trip bugs into the git reports, whether it is a security bug or otherwise.

    1. Re:Completely out of context by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 4, Insightful

      Agreed. The thing to note is that this cuts both ways.

      *Every* bug is a potential security bug. So should we look for ways to try to convert every bug into a security notice? Of course not! Why waste the time? What happens when it turns out that a bug doesn't have security implications? Do we shout "hurray!" and flag it as such?

      Linus is entirely correct - a bug is a bug and must be fixed.

    2. Re:Completely out of context by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

      Linus is entirely correct - a bug is a bug and must be fixed.

      It's not a bug, it's a feature.
      - Bill Gates.

  7. Summary: Flamebait? by struppi · · Score: 5, Insightful
    The summary and the linked email from Brad Spengler look very flamebait to me. Linus Thorwalds writes in the quoted mail:

    That said, I don't _plan_ messages or obfuscate them, so "overflow" might well be part of the message just because it simply describes the fix. So I'm not claiming that the messages can never help somebody pinpoint interesting commits to look at, I'm just also not at all interested in doing so reliably.

    And from the second email:

    > by 'cover up' i meant that even when you know better, you quite
    > consciously do *not* report the security impact of said bugs
    Yes. Because the only place I consider appropriate is the kernel changelogs, and since those get published with the sources, there is no way I can convince myself that it's a good idea to say "Hey script kiddies, try this" unless it's already very public indeed.

    Also, someone is not satisfied with an email from Linus Thorwalds and he drags the discussion over here to /. - This certainly will solve the problem... (Sorry for RTFA, I should know better)

    1. Re:Summary: Flamebait? by pruneau · · Score: 1
      Flamebait ? This is a kernel mailing list, for gods sake.

      Have a look at this post, and tell me who wins the flamebait pissing context.

      --
      [Pruneau /\o^O/\ warranty void if this .sig is removed]
    2. Re:Summary: Flamebait? by spankymm · · Score: 1

      Well, probably me.

      --
      http://cafepress.com/spankymm - for the Masturbating Monkey in you!
  8. "Sorry for RTFA"? by argent · · Score: 4, Funny

    *snort*

    And I thought I'd seen every variant on the usual Slashdot in-jokes.

    You win a gold star.

  9. So by C_Kode · · Score: 4, Insightful

    So, what they're saying is when you find/fix a vulnerability you should broadcast on BBC otherwise you will be less safe?

    I don't think so. Love it or hate it, obscure security issues do protect some users. Obviously the issues need to tracked and I think changelogs are a good place to do it. There isn't a real reason to inform the world through all channels avaliable. Just fix it, log it, and move on. Anyone who needs to know will know where to look.

  10. Two sides to this story by yerdaddy · · Score: 5, Informative

    This is a an extremely one-sided presentation of this story. Linus makes some controversial but insightful points about the security obsessed culture in the community. This should not have been a "Linus has gone mad" story. This is a legitimate re-evaluation of how security patches are handled.

    Read the thread, make your own decision:
    http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/701694/focus=706950

  11. I just love the smell of napalm in the morning... by Timothy+Brownawell · · Score: 4, Informative

    See the Kerneltrap posting which includes a good part of the email discussion.

    It looks like Linus' main concern is that publicizing a few bugs as "security" issues will act to hide other real security issues that weren't recognized at fix time; that any effort to publicize security issues will be so incomplete as to be misleading. And I see no mention of these concerns in the linked postings, almost as if the "full disclosure" people posting them are afraid to disclose the potential bugs (which would automatically be security bugs because of the topic) in their own methodologies.

  12. Stop hiding. by Bigmilt8 · · Score: 0

    Sounds shady to me.

  13. Some context. by delire · · Score: 4, Informative
    Looks like Brad is spinning things a bit. Further in the thread a 'Robert Peaslee' writes:

    Hi Brad, Your comments are kind of misguided. Linus can be quoted as saying: "my responsibility is to do a good job. And not pander to the people who want to turn security into a media circus." He was referring to individuals such as yourself when making the circus comment, as your message was slightly alarmist and dramatized. Security is important, of course - but Linus' opinions are completely correct in terms of development of the Linux kernel. I would agree with you if security bugs were actually being hidden, but they aren't. They just aren't given special treatment.

    From here

    1. Re:Some context. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Who the hell is Robert Peaslee?

      Intentionally writing commit messages so as to avoid any mention of security is giving them special treatment. Including them in the -stable releases along with other non-security bugs, to the exclusion of the many other bugs in the kernel, is giving them special treatment.

  14. Pragmatism by jandersen · · Score: 2, Interesting

    I have never really seen Linus as a prophet, unlike some, and although I can see the sense in being as open as possible - because that gives developers a strong incentive to fix things - I can also see that it may not be completely stupid to allow developers a bit of time to try to fix a newly discovered security vulnerability. I mean, it is not as if we are talking about keeping things very secret in order to avoid doing anything about it; but most of the time, if the news about a problem isn't bellowed out in public as soon as it is discovered, it buys people just a little bit of valuable time.

    1. Re:Pragmatism by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Totally agreed. The very culture of open source is non-prophet.

  15. There is no absolute security by bunratty · · Score: 3, Insightful

    But won't fewer be able to take advantage of security vulnerabilities if it becomes harder to decipher changelogs? Security is not an all-or-nothing situation. The fewer people who know about a vulnerability, the fewer that can exploit it, and that means that users have a lower chance of being exploited.

    That's actually an important point about security. You cannot make a useful system without any vulnerabilities. You can only maker it harder to exploit the vulnerabilities, meaning that fewer will be able to exploit them. For example, you cannot make an uncrackable and useful code, but you can make a code so hard to break that very few will even try.

    --
    What a fool believes, he sees, no wise man has the power to reason away.
    1. Re:There is no absolute security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      Your confusing exploiting vulnerabilities with knowing they exist.

      All this does is make it harder to know about vulnerabilities. The fewer who know about vulnerabilities only means the fewer who know how to fix, patch, or work around them.

      To fix your analogy: For example, you cannot make an uncrackable and useful code, but you can make a code so hard to read that few people will even try to read it to find exploits, or to fix the exploits. Those looking to exploit the code could always use the trusty binaries, like they have always done, but the rest of us depend upon the source code to know about possible vulnerabilities, to work around them, and fix them.

    2. Re:There is no absolute security by inode_buddha · · Score: 1

      Let me offer a minor correction to your last paragraph. The binaries are not trustworthy. But they are sue-able at law.

      --
      C|N>K
    3. Re:There is no absolute security by snspdaarf · · Score: 5, Insightful

      Problem is, it only takes one. If a exploit is developed, it can get passed around among the Bad Guys, even if they don't have the smarts to do it on their own. Look at all the script kiddies. I like to know about security issues, but I prefer that a patch is available before the world is told how to attack my systems.

      --
      Why, without your clothes, you're naked, Miss Dudley!
    4. Re:There is no absolute security by _Sprocket_ · · Score: 4, Insightful

      The fewer people who know about a vulnerability, the fewer that can exploit it, and that means that users have a lower chance of being exploited.

      Two things to consider:

      1) All it takes is one person to exploit your vulnerability. And that one person doesn't even have to know you exist and target you specifically. Most cases involve targets of opportunity.

      2) These things don't remain secret. How fast the knowledge is spread only depends on the particulars of the situation. But the knowledge will spread. Sometimes very fast. You're unlikely to be dealing with just one potential attacker.

      That's actually an important point about security. You cannot make a useful system without any vulnerabilities. You can only maker it harder to exploit the vulnerabilities, meaning that fewer will be able to exploit them. For example, you cannot make an uncrackable and useful code, but you can make a code so hard to break that very few will even try.

      It depends on what kind of vulnerability we're dealing with. There are known trade-offs in the design of a system and then there's failures in the design or implementation.

      Security is never absolute by design. There are always trade-offs being made (inverse relationship between usability and security, investment of resources vs. value of what's being protected, etc.). Hopefully designers understand the issues and have made wise choices. But even the most well thought out system will ultimately have left some possibility of subverting it. Thus exists the concept that security is not an absolute.

      Bugs and design flaws are a different issue. These are not trade-offs but unintentional mistakes or miscalculations. These are unintentional flaws. It is entirely possible to design or implement a system without flaws. But of course, designing something without flaws or implementing without bugs is difficult.

  16. Linus endorses MS security model!!!!!! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Linus, you fought a good fight, but your defeat was inevitable. You were a worthy opponent. WE SALUTE YOU.

  17. There is no absolute scarcity by fictionpuss · · Score: 1
    Making a task harder does not necessarily limit production, especially if the new difficulty level still lies within the skill level of the individuals involved.

    Isn't the real problem that you're fighting against market forces which create a demand for the vulnerabilities in the first place?

  18. Security Through Obscurity does have a benefit by electrosoccertux · · Score: 1

    That benefit isn't as great as the benefit of OSS I think...
    But consider what could happen if all the software for a voting machine were out in the open. Doubtless there would be those who might find a bug, and keep it to themselves in the hopes of using it to elect who they want. I'm not saying the current situation is better, because I think it's worse, but if the voting software were OS'd we might just be out of the frying pan and into the fire.

    IANAP so maybe someone else can offer a technical solution for how to let the code be OS'd, yet keep it from being readily exploitable if a bug is found. Think of the money you could make betting on your presidential candidate...

    1. Re:Security Through Obscurity does have a benefit by a_real_bast... · · Score: 1

      Design By Contract and formal methodology (mathematically proving a program's "correctness") would be a start.
      The only time I'd even think of trusting voting machine software would be if it was FOSS. It's the only way to be sure that there isn't something in the code that scales the number of votes for a candidate by how much money the machine makers have given them...

      --
      You're making me think. You won't like me when I'm thinking.
  19. Obscurity is an anti-freedom model by mlwmohawk · · Score: 2, Insightful

    In the old argument, freedom requires responsibility, this is a prime example of the conflict.

    In a truly freedom based model, you assume and rely on the fact that Linux users are responsible for their systems, and thus WARNING SECURITY BUG FIX NOW is a good title to an important patch.

    In the less free "sharecropper" future of Linux where user's rely on upstream vendors to "take care of them" and take no responsibility for their systems, hiding such warning is great security theater to make them feel more secure. They are not more secure, we all know, but they FEEL that they are and the kernel guys pretend to act more responsibly in this "post 9-11" fear based world.

    Its all bullshit and everyone who knows anything knows it. What surprised me was Vixie just saying "patch and trust us" without explaining, with specificity, why.

    When even the proponents of freedom start to fear freedom, we are in deep shit.

    1. Re:Obscurity is an anti-freedom model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      He's not saying obfuscate security reports, he's just saying he's not going to stick a large flag on the changelog that gets published when the patch does saying SECURITY BUG EXPLOIT ME NOW BEFORE THE SYSADMIN READS THIS!
      This way gives you the freedom to either put the work in keeping your system patched for all bugs, or accept the risk inherent, and not.

    2. Re:Obscurity is an anti-freedom model by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      He's not saying obfuscate security reports, he's just saying he's not going to stick a large flag on the changelog that gets published when the patch does saying SECURITY BUG EXPLOIT ME NOW BEFORE THE SYSADMIN READS THIS!

      I understand what you are saying, but it is a disingenuous use of the English language to propose that titles and descriptions be less descriptive so as to not call attention to the real issue, and NOT call that obfuscation.

    3. Re:Obscurity is an anti-freedom model by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      If I may make an analogy, it seems like the difference between a flaming campy queer, and an everyday gay guy who doesn't flaunt his sexuality.

    4. Re:Obscurity is an anti-freedom model by mjeffers · · Score: 1

      Wow, take a deep breath and get some perspective. He's talking about not elevating security bugs as a class of bugs, not hiding them. You've managed to bring in 9-11, freedom and a vision of a "sharecropper" future for Linux out of this. You may disagree and I think there are some good arguments on that side (particularly that people may use the presence of a security bug as a motivator to upgrade or that auditors may need to easily classify security from non-security related bugs) but to jump from

      So I personally consider security bugs to be just "normal bugs". I don't cover them up, but I also don't have any reason what-so-ever to think it's a good idea to track them and announce them as something special.

      to

      When even the proponents of freedom start to fear freedom, we are in deep shit.

      Is a complete overreaction.

    5. Re:Obscurity is an anti-freedom model by mlwmohawk · · Score: 1

      If I may make an analogy, it seems like the difference between a flaming campy queer, and an everyday gay guy who doesn't flaunt his sexuality

      Neither of which is any less gay. If you intend to change the language in a way to make the real meaning less clear, that is, by definition, obfuscation. You may be arguing relativity, I am arguing an absolute fact.

      At what point does Linus start saying, this obfuscation thing isn't working and *ONLY* vetted kernel contributors may see the change logs of unreleased kernels? It is within his rights and possible.

  20. Distributions rely on grep? by calc · · Score: 1

    Since when did distributions rely on grep to find out about security problems?

    There are upstream security mailing lists where security problems are disclosed to the various distributions security teams for most projects (and probably including the Linux kernel), so they probably know about these problems before they are even fixed to begin with.

  21. Unless they're malicious bugs... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    unless the security bugs are malicious and in on purpose... they're just bugs by my definition.

  22. There is a great quote in the thread by jchandra · · Score: 1

    http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950

    I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys, in
    that they make such a big deal about concentrating on security to the
    point where they pretty much admit that nothing else matters to them.

    --
    god n. : the Supreme Being, indistinguishable from a good random number generator.
    1. Re:There is a great quote in the thread by dotancohen · · Score: 2, Funny

      http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/706950

      I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys, in
      that they make such a big deal about concentrating on security to the
      point where they pretty much admit that nothing else matters to them.

      http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/7451/poster68251050mx9.jpg

      --
      It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong.
    2. Re:There is a great quote in the thread by spankymm · · Score: 3, Informative

      And if you read about the auditing process here: http://www.openbsd.org/security.html#process
      We are not so much looking for security holes, as we are looking for basic software bugs...
      Shame Linus has his head stuck up his ass, or he could have read that, too.

      --
      http://cafepress.com/spankymm - for the Masturbating Monkey in you!
  23. You make that sound like it's a bad thing by MikeRT · · Score: 3, Insightful

    If it becomes impossible to do that, then all that we'll see is an increase in the number of people who buy support from commercial distributors, because they won't be able to support themselves.

    The more demand for commercial support, the cheaper it will become. That means that eventually the cost to support university Linux-based systems via RedHat, Novell, etc. may become cheaper than the cost of keeping people on staff to do it. The end result is that while the universities may not be doing it for themselves anymore, it's cheaper for them to focus on what they do best. After all, no one seriously argues that society is worse off today because the average car owner cannot rebuild their car like a mechanic.

    1. Re:You make that sound like it's a bad thing by chriscappuccio · · Score: 1

      Ummm... more demand makes things cheaper? Oh, like oil, right?

  24. Not the prophet? by Puffy+Director+Pants · · Score: 2, Interesting

    But I've already started compiling a book of his wisdom and am preparing to start a church! Oh well, guess any good religion needs an enemy.

  25. Wisdom from Ted T'so, as usual. by Medievalist · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Read this post to get some perspective:

    http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.kernel/707044

    Linus is being blunt, as usual, and he's telling everybody what his personal policy is towards disclosure. If he finds a bug, he fixes it, and he doesn't rate security bugs as more or less important than other bugs because he's a kernel hacker, and therefore security bugs are not his sole focus in life. He doesn't use any special language to highlight or obscure security fixes in the changelog, he just describes the fix, which is what people are claiming is "security by obscurity".

    From that, people looking for something to bitch about have created this kerfuffle; it is a tale told by an idiot, full of storm and fury, and signifying... nothing.(from Macbeth, 5.5)

    "Shakespeare really kicks the cap off" -- James Hovenac

  26. After using Ubuntu for a year..... by NWJeepn · · Score: 0

    I am considering moving back to Vista, I have a pretty plain install of Ubuntu but almost daily there are a least 4 or more security updates that need to be installed. Then the system usually requires a reboot for the updates to take effect.

    Heck, at least Microsoft is only one Tuesday a month and you get them all at once.

  27. Linux meets the Real World by urcreepyneighbor · · Score: 1

    Season 2, Episode 6.26

    --
    "The fight for freedom has only just begun." - Geert Wilders
  28. Missing the point by IceCreamGuy · · Score: 5, Informative

    I think what pageexec (the "antagonist" in the referenced thread) was trying to say was that he feels a lot of the developers don't follow Documentation/SecurityBugs in their commits in a consistent way. He's saying that when people post commits for regular bugs, they include a decent amount of data about what they fixed, but if it's a security bug, people are posting a minimal amount in their commits. Apparently in Documentation/SecurityBugs, it says that full disclosure is the policy, but what he's seeing is less than full disclosure in practice. That is what the thread is actually about, Linus' opinions are ancillary to that point.

    He's just saying that it seems to him that what is written as policy for kernel devs is not what they're actually doing, so they should either change the policy or change their commits. If the changelogs don't conform to policy, at some point somewhere downstream devs are going to miss something because the policy doesn't match the practice, and that's what's a security risk.

  29. Torvalds falsely accused of security coverup .. by rs232 · · Score: 5, Informative

    "so guys (meaning not only Greg but Andrew, Linus, et al.), when will you publicly explain why you're covering up security impact of bugs", pagee...@freemail.hu

    "I don't cover them up", Torvalds

    "by 'cover up' i meant that even when you know better, you quite consciously do *not* report the security impact of said bugs", pagee...@freemail.hu

    "Yes. Because the only place I consider appropriate is the kernel changelogs, and since those get published with the sources, there is no way I can convince myself that it's a good idea to say "Hey script kiddies, try this" unless it's already very public indeed", Torvalds

    "one reason I refuse to bother with the whole security circus is that I think it glorifies - and thus encourages - the wrong behavior It makes "heroes" out of security people, as if the people who don't just fix normal bugs aren't as important", Torvalds

    "I refuse to have anything to even _do_ with organizations like vendor-sec that I think is a corrupt cluster-fuck of people who just want to cover their own ass", Torvalds

    http://tinyurl.com/5qyon3
    http://groups.google.co.uk/group/fa.linux.kernel/browse_thread/thread/5bdf2e1b8a90142c/abcf79768bb7ce7f?hl=en&lnk=st&q=#abcf79768bb7ce7f

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
    1. Re:Torvalds falsely accused of security coverup .. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      "you quite consciously do *not* report the security impact of said bugs"

      This is misleading. Think about that for a minute. Yes, _security impact_. So Linus just doesn't want to advertise the security impact of bugs. That's all!

      Nobody is claiming the commits are deliberately left inaccurate with security bugs (or if someone is, she's wrong). Linus basically said that the vendors (security patchers) need to think for themselves if a bug has a security impact or not. Only already known issue fixes are tagged as security fixes (CVE id etc.).

  30. slashdot indulges in provocative headlines .. by rs232 · · Score: 2, Insightful

    This, in my view, is total nonsense, if you don't mand me saying so, CmdrTaco. The full source is out there for anyone to see, bugs are reported in the kernel mailing list, for anyone to see. How is this in any way shape or form 'security through obscurity'

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  31. Let the evil begin by gatkinso · · Score: 1

    I knew it couldn't last. Oh well. There is always FreeBSD.

    --
    I am very small, utmostly microscopic.
    1. Re:Let the evil begin by IceCreamGuy · · Score: 1

      I knew it couldn't last. Oh well. There is always FreeBSD.

      Linus Torvalds, from the very email in question,

      ...I think the OpenBSD crowd is a bunch of masturbating monkeys...

      Shazam! Take that gatkinso!

    2. Re:Let the evil begin by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      That's dumb. This is not obfuscation or security through obscurity, and there is no real evidence of any coverup. Linus outlined his opinion for the proper place for Security notices and what should go in a changelog or commit log. The author disagrees, and feels that the only reason for this could be obfuscation and malice. It's just dumb. If the information were entirely absent, or actually repressed - sure. But it's not. From a patch development, a bug is a bug. It gets assigned and it gets fixed. In a kernel, all bugs are potentially security issues, so calling them out explicitly seems unnecessary.

    3. Re:Let the evil begin by Slashcrap · · Score: 1

      I knew it couldn't last. Oh well. There is always FreeBSD.

      Ha ha, you're going to go through all the effort of migrating your OS based on a hugely inaccurate Slashdot story, which is itself based on the trolling of a self publicising securi-cock. That's pretty much the definition of "dumb faggot" right there.

      Not that I give a shit which OS you use, but holy shit you're stupid and easily lead.

  32. Obscurity does not hurt. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    I think the point is that obscurity does not hurt security. On its own, it cannot substitute for actual security measures, but it doesn't DECREASE the security of a system. (If somebody can think of a counterexample I want to hear it!)

    The problem is that not everybody can upgrade right away. The issue might have been fixed in version X.Y.Z but still exists in version X.Y.Z-1. Certainly you should fix the issue, but clearly explaining what it is will only cause harm to people still running X.Y.Z-1.

  33. CmdrTaco indulges in flamebait .. by rs232 · · Score: 4, Insightful

    corrected headline .. :)

    --
    davecb5620@gmail.com
  34. ...Why should this change now? by hellwig · · Score: 1

    Well for one thing, Linux is being installed on more and more consumer PCs these days. Most of the UMPCs out there run some sort of Linux, as does every $200 PC sold at Walmart. You can't expect all the people buying these computers to know anything about how to patch a kernel. If Linux is to be accepted, it needs to be easy to use, and recompiling a kernel is not something the average user should ever have to do. If you want to keep Linux for the nerds, that's fine, but then don't complain about Microsoft and Apple when their OSs are not to your liking (not that you personally have done so).

    --
    Eggs
    Milk
    Bread
    Cat Litter
    Soda
    ...
  35. Sponsored by by ledow · · Score: 1

    Having had this (and other similar) conversations follow through LWN.net, LKML and various other places that just won't let me escape it, all I can do is express surprise that the article wasn't "Sponsored by PaXTeam".

    Similar arguments keep getting raised by various people affiliated with that name and again and again they just don't listen. It took weeks to get them to bring up such problems in a proper, public forum and now they are just shouting for nothing more than attention.

    Nobody cares, because they can't be bothered to 1) listen. 2) Use appropriate forums. 3) Express alternatives 4) Take no for an answer. I tired of the arguments on LWN, and increasingly I'm getting tired of visiting websites/forums/mailing lists where the same people are starting the same arguments again.

    If you're worried about security, keep your software updated. You WILL hear about anything REALLY important. If you don't keep it updated, that's much more of a problem than anything else.

  36. Can we explore the alternatives ? by freddy_dreddy · · Score: 1

    If we say that obfuscation is necessary because one doesn't want the info to fall in the wrong hands, what's the root-problem then?
    a. the fact that the info exists
    b. the fact that the info is presented on a silver platter to the wrong people
    c. the fact that not everyone does a timely update

    Obfuscation deals with a & b, can we replace it by offering a solution for c ? Maybe one could suggest a fundamental change in the way updates are made instead of how they are presented?

    --
    "Violence is the last refuge of the competent, and, generally, the first refuge of the incompetent" - Thing_1
    1. Re:Can we explore the alternatives ? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      You realize that Isaac Asimov was a pussy???

  37. Linus is right by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 2, Informative

    The problem is the bogus presumption that there is a class of bugs called "security bugs", and that fixing these bugs is somehow more important than other bugs.

    This, in turn, is based upon the PHB contempt for "hackers", and the assumption that "hackers are always changing things for no good reason"; leading to mechanisms to prevent updates from being installed in the name of "keeping the system stable." Far more harm has been caused by this PHB mindset that has ever been caused by bugs in new code.

    When a developer has updates, he has already triaged them into "get into the field now" (what he releases) and "can wait a while" (what is in his development sources). What the PHBs, and sadly some ./ers, want is for the developer to do additional triaging of his release updates.

    This is unreasonable. It requires the developer to anticipate the interaction of a potentially unbounded set of combinations of updates vs. non-updates. Perhaps there is no security problem with bug A, or bug B, or bug C discovered at different times; but there is a security problem if all three are unfixed. Or perhaps fixing bug C without fixing bug A months earlier introduces a security problem.

    Now, with this said; the release version should always have all known critical issues (not necessarily security) fixed. Nobody should ever be made to install a "current release" with known critical issues. This means that the "current release" must be updated as needed to preserve this state.

    The Redhats of the world are in the business of backporting some fixed into ancient releases in order to satisfy the PHBs. They make their money by doing that, and charge handsomely for it. I haven't heard of anyone paying Linus (nor, for that matter, most other developers) to provide that type of service. If you want such services, write your checks to Redhat. Don't expect developers to give it to you for free.

  38. It looks like a legitimate complaint, but.. by sofla · · Score: 1

    If you read the seclists article (the second link), Mr. Spengler points out the following:

    The Linux kernel has a formal policy in Documentation/SecurityBugs which
    states under Section 2 Disclosure:
    "We prefer to fully disclose the bug as soon as possible."

    To the extent that this policy does exist, then Linus' position of 'they're just bugs' is clearly a problem. I don't see how you can treat them as 'regular bugs' and still have any hope of full disclosure. Put another way, if no one sees a problem with Linus' way of doing things, then it is simply untrue that Linux has a full disclosure policy.

    The FA claim of "security by obscurity" seems a little much, IMO. It seems we're not talking about intentionally hiding security problems as much as lax adherence to the full disclosure policy.

  39. Scary stuff by synthespian · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    That was definitely scary reading...

    It's hopeless - security in Linux sucks.

    --
    Main difference between the BSD license and the GPL license: one is from California and the other is from Massachusetts
  40. Mod parent troll! by Spy+der+Mann · · Score: 1

    It's tolerable that you don't read TFA, but at least read TF comments. The article itself is misquoting Linus.

    Otherwise, ask yourself why it takes less than 5 minutes to pwn a Windows computer, but it takes nearly forever to pwn a Linux computer. It's not Linux security that sucks. It's your Redmond-brainwashed mind.

  41. Thanks Linus For Telling Them by wmaster · · Score: 1

    It is refreshing to still have some real humans among us, who do not need to carefully avoid touching corporate interests when it comes to expressing a personal opinion. The open source community needs to be told the straight truth from time to time, and personally I would not be offended if he would have used the same words to criticize my own work. Actually, I would have fun imagining myself being part of a group of masturbating monkeys. :-)

    While we should try to talk friendly to users, a bit of humor and stronger expressions are the urgently needed salt'n peppa in a decent conversation between developers.

    The IT security industry was always sick, but it managed to gain much more importance recently, because the world felt into a period of stupid fear some years ago. I really hope some day we can start to do constructive and serious security based on proven risk management principles and facts again.

    What's feeding my wallet, is often not right, though.

    Greetings,
    Chris

    --
    "An operating system must operate."
  42. Why we have distros by wytcld · · Score: 1

    Most all the distros offer their preferred patched kernel versions. Usually a distro release will be based on a specific kernel iteration, which will then have any security patches back-ported to it. The distro users have ways to check for security notices - and should, on the whole distro, not just the kernel.

    Each distro's kernel team should be tracking all patches to the kernel, for all bugs, since even non-security bugs may crash other packages in the distro. They should know enough to spot the fixes that are security-urgent. So for normal users of normal distros using those distros' kernels and tracking those distros' security notices, all of this is a nonissue.

    If you're rolling your own Linux, it there's a point to complaining that kernel security bugs aren't flagged. On the other hand, if you're doing this as something other than a hobby, you should either have your own kernel team, be an expert yourself, or switch to running one of the standard distros, where - if the distro team is any good - all this is taken care of.

    --
    "with their freedom lost all virtue lose" - Milton
  43. What are you talking about? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1

    How is schneier.com trolling? Because the poster linked to his discussion of full disclosure from 2001?! And "harsh words for BSD" is definately trying to be nice to your lord linus. He outright flames openbsd calling them "masterbating monkies" because he claims they make too big a deal out of security. This despite the fact that he has never tried openbsd, has never spoken to the openbsd developers, and all because they happen to embrace full disclosure. OpenBSD considers correctness to be important, and security is a side effect of correctness. They agree with linus that all bugs are important and need to be fixed. They just happen to think its important to let their users know when there's a potential security hole that could affect them. Linus is an ignorant troll.

  44. My personal opinion. by darkcmd · · Score: 1

    I don't believe that vulnerability fixes should be cryptic in the changelog. For one as stated before it helps distributions patch and fix their kernels for the end-user. It also would make it a big hassle for more technical users who patch their own kernel. The 'security through obscurity' way of disclosing vulnerabilities has been debunked several times. It's counter-productive against the very openness of Linux.

  45. Bah! So much polarization by swordgeek · · Score: 2, Interesting

    Folks, it's not an OMG!!! THEY HID THE BUG AND NOW WE'RE GOING TO DIE!!! issue.

    Security through obscurity, for those who remember the olden days, meant not disclosing code, not revealing algorithms, and relying on enforced ignorance on the part of the user/exploiter.

    This ain't it. The code is there. The comments are there. Anyone can find it. What Linus is talking about is failing to aid and abet hackers in their attempts. It is simply not ACTIVELY ADVERTISING exploitable code. This is something that seems remarkably sensible.

    Unfortunately, anything less "open" than having a courier deliver working exploit code to hackers is labeled "security through obscurity OMFG!!!" by idiots.

    --

    "People who do stupid things with hazardous materials often die." -- Jim Davidson on alt.folklore.urban
    1. Re:Bah! So much polarization by roster238 · · Score: 1

      And by not advertising you mean not publicly acknowledging for users of Linux the security flaw exists until it's fixed but allowing anyone access to the code who might want to find security holes such as hackers who might already have the capability write an exploit? So based on that criteria if I need to ensure that my Linux systems are secure I need to monitor the code myself? I have always thought that people who live downstream from a dam should be responsible for their own damn inspections. Apparently you agree.

      --
      I swear I didn't know it was loaded...
    2. Re:Bah! So much polarization by makomk · · Score: 1

      Say you look at the changelog, and there's a fix for some obscure reference counting bug in some part of the kernel you've vaguely heard of. Do you bother upgrading? Possibly not, but if you'd known that said bug allowed anyone with local code execution to root your system, then you might've made a different decision. This is a real example that the person was complaining about, and the reason why they were complaining of security by obscurity - the kernel developers are trying to stop people from exploiting vulnerabilities by hiding the fact that they exist.

      Sure, someone with security knowledge could look at the actual code change and figure out the real impact, but that's possible with closed-source software too (using the right tools). In fact, that's why it doesn't provide any real security. All it does is mean that some of the people who are affected won't know to upgrade, since most of them don't have (and shouldn't need) the skills required to take apart patches in this fashion.

    3. Re:Bah! So much polarization by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The problem is the obfuscation only hinders the legitimate people. Someone skilled at writing exploits for vulnerabilities will easily spot them even if they aren't clearly marked. However the people that really NEED to know these are security issues won't be able to tell that 1 byte overflow of function X actually allows complete compromise of there supposedly secure system so that instead of patching what appears a minor bug to them they ignore it until there next major upgrade as they don't understand the implications.

      despite what linus thinks not all bugs are equal, people make bucketloads from security as guess what, SECURITY IS the most important factor for many systems and if you want your software (linux) to continue to be as popular you bloody well better treat security as a top level priority even over bugs you would "prefer" to fix.

  46. Masturbating Monkeys by droopycom · · Score: 1

    Controversial indeed.... Linus might be mad, but maby of his comments are +5 Funny

    1. Re:Masturbating Monkeys by prockcore · · Score: 1

      I just like how this story played out on slashdot versus reddit. On reddit, the story was about Linus slamming the BSD devs. On slashdot, the story is twisted to make Linus look like a hypocrite.

  47. Brief child process analogy by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    We all practice some security through obscurity, we keep our passwords to ourselves, filter our actions versus our moral code and we keep our clothes on while in public. When it comes to our children, we try to strenghten their moral code so they don't run around naked and easily exploitable while realizing that a chastity belt or locking them in their rooms would be a bit excessive. We try to teach them to chose their social networking links carefully. If they chose to learn the martial arts, all the better.

    Everyone we meet growing up and getting old contributes to our code, but each person is still in control of what is accepted, compiled in and run as a process. Every parent and sysadmin are but in partial control of the input/output, but we can't monitor and control everything lest we forment rebellion that is dangerously self-destructive. So best you can hope for is to control what you can reasonably, lead by example while accepting your may not be the leader they are looking to all the time and monitor judiciously the developement.

    1. Re:Brief child process analogy by msuarezalvarez · · Score: 1

      keeping your password to yourself is not security through obscurity.

  48. Yeah, what (s)he said! by cparker15 · · Score: 1

    Mod parent insightful!

    --
    Have you driven a fnord... lately?

    You must wait a little bit before using this resource; please try again later.

  49. Security Through Obscurity by Joce640k · · Score: 1

    Obscurity: Bad

    Security: Good

    Obscurity+Security: Even better

    --
    No sig today...
  50. Missed Points from LKML discussion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Probably will get lost in the masses, but I would just like to point out that Linus' OTHER point is that he doesn't want to tag patches as [SECURITY] or some such because the submitter (and the reviewer, etc...) of the patch does not necessarily know whether it has security implications or not. What this means is there would then be all the tagged security patches (which downstream maintainers would presumably prioritize) and then there would be all the untagged security patches which would be even more likely to be missed because maintainers would be relying on the security tag.

    Another issue that was pointed out, acknowledged, and then subsequently ignored in the LKML thread was that "software development and security evaluation are separate skill-sets". This whole thing looks like a PR stunt to me. (on the part of "PaX Team" to be clear)

    On the other hand, if there were a security-minded group of individuals who felt that this enhanced level of "full disclosure" is necessary, they are perfectly free to review all the PUBLICLY AVAILABLE patches and publish which ones they deem to address security vulnerabilities.

    I give extra short-shrift to people like this who are arguing for someone else to do work on their behalf.

  51. bad journalism by Kz · · Score: 1

    This isn't "security through obscurity". it's reasonable disclosure, mainly to give some time to create, distribute and apply a fix

    the methods are open to discussion, and might not be the best advice (or may be, i don't know). but just picking a catchphrase and running around is just bad journalism.

    --
    -Kz-
  52. No. Just, no. by AdamWill · · Score: 1

    "On the contrary, it's downstream distributors who rely on changelog information in order to decide when to patch the kernels of their distributions, in order to keep their users safe."

    No, it really isn't. No responsible kernel maintainer would rely solely on changelogs for information.

  53. Worst article this week by pembo13 · · Score: 4, Informative

    Most of the controversy is totally misplaced. This is essentially about having
    * SECUIRTY ISSUE: fix info
    vs.
    * fix info

    Is that really obscurity?

    --
    "Thanks for all the money you paid to us. We've used it to buy off ISO among other things" -Microsoft
    1. Re:Worst article this week by makomk · · Score: 1

      Nope, it's about several patches for security flaws that fail to mention security, let alone what sort of security issues they fix or what the potential impact is. I think you're confused by some of Linus' more interesting outbursts on the subject.

    2. Re:Worst article this week by stanjam · · Score: 1

      I have to agree it is a bad article, and underlies a mistaken perception of security through obscurity. While some argument can be made that it is SthruO. By not stating the problem we are not drawing attention to it, thereby making it less likely that it will be taken advantage of before we fix it. Eh, yes, but also no. SthruO is more like putting your server room on the third floor down a hallway no one uses, and not putting signs anywhere telling people where it is. However it is still weak, and can only be useful in a layered approach to security as a whole. This is akin to trying to further the argument that Linux is only more secure because it isn't used on a whole lot of computers. This is being proven false each and every year. Linux is becoming more and more popular. It runs most of the web servers, most of the embedded OS's on devices, and is gaining popularity in desktops, especially as low end Linux machines gain in popularity. Yet the security factor remains about the same. A lot could be gained by the hacker group that gets an easy in to Linux machines. Yet they continue to focus on Windows because it is easier to hack! Unless of course, you actually take time to set it up right.

      --
      Open Source: Eroding the Digital Divide
  54. Open Source Security Acknowledgment Policy by roster238 · · Score: 1
    Below is a good place to use as a starting point to document Linus' new Acknowledgment Policy.

    " there has traditionally been an unwritten rule among security professionals that the discoverer of a security vulnerability has an obligation to give the vendor an opportunity to correct the vulnerability before publicly disclosing it."

    http://www.microsoft.com/technet/Security/bulletin/policy.mspx

    --
    I swear I didn't know it was loaded...
  55. If you're going to troll... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ... then troll with something that can't be trivially disproven by checking the changelog. There have been six kernel updates for Hardy released since mid-April, when it was released, which comes out an average of roughly one every two weeks. Not all updates are security-related. Non-kernel updates don't require a reboot.

    1. Re:If you're going to troll... by NWJeepn · · Score: 0

      I wasn't speaking specifically to *just* the Kernel.... there's Firefox, Open Office, Evolution and so on. Each requiring patches/updates most seem to be fixing some sort of security vulnerability. Some requiring a reboot.

  56. Re:8301: The year of Linux on the desktop by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    Don't know what you're talking about. Linux has been on my desktop since 1996...

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  57. Re:Linus does not understand security by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Read the many replies to this idea already. Linus is not actually promoting security through obscurity, he is advocating treating security bugs like any other bug, and not posting PoC in the logs.

  58. Re:8301: The year of Linux on the desktop by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Your desktop != The year of Linux on the desktop

  59. Re:8301: The year of Linux on the desktop by Tetsujin · · Score: 1

    Linux is on the desktop. What more do we need?

    --
    Bow-ties are cool.
  60. Linux, the BSD's and Scariness... by FreeFuture · · Score: 1

    I spent four hours reading this and thank you for posting this. As someone unfamiliar in computer security, the ideas I got were:

    1. Full Disclosure is the norm in the computer security world today and has empirically been shown to improve security much more than bug secrecy.

    2.. An idea of why FreeBSD and OpenBSD are considered more secure. It seems that basically there is a direct correlation between the rate of change in the code and security holes, as writing new code and changing code leads to mistakes and fixing security holes is always post-facto.

    3. It seems like given a particular security hole, it is quite possible for an exploit to gain control sufficiently enough to watch over what I do, what files I open, what my network traffic is, etc, scary etc. This is actually quite scary.

    4. I didn't know the security industry was huge, and there are plenty of well-paid, full-time programmers looking for exploits.

    Given the above fact, that each found (and who knows, how many unfound) exploit can lead to not trusting my own computer, I would rather prefer that everything is open and well-known, with a reasonable window of secrecy. Especially since it is seems very easy for kernel developers to make mistakes while coding fast (they are human after all, doing a tough human endeavor, they are not any kind of gods). It is better that they make life easy for the good guys, since the well-paid bad guys are going to find out anyway.

    Why don't the kernel developers spend time fooling the business folk instead of us? It is easier to pull wool over their eyes technically anyway. Or best of all, why not just tell the truth?

    spender and PaxTeam are obviously very experienced and no one seems to have a proper, head-to-head rebuttal to them, other than FUD. I wonder why?

    And maybe it is just me, or do some of the comments posted above seem to want to distract my attention? This is getting scarier.

    1. Re:Linux, the BSD's and Scariness... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      spender here

      Thank you for actually taking the time to read the posts fully. It's a rare thing these days.

  61. "security through obscurity"..... by too2late · · Score: 1

    cisco

    --
    My rights don't end where your feelings begin.
  62. Most Linux systems are hard to patch by EmbeddedJanitor · · Score: 1
    It's all very well patching a kernel if it is a private machine being used by some geek. Even rolling out fixes to a whole raft of desktops/laptops through a Ubuntu-like update mechanism is not that hard.

    What you're missing though is that the majority of Linux systems are embedded systems: phones, point-of-sale terminals, etc etc. Most of the users of these devices don't know that the machine runs Linux and don't know how to go about patching. Rolling out patches to these is not at all easy.

    --
    Engineering is the art of compromise.
  63. You want to know why oil is expensive? by MikeRT · · Score: 1

    1) Inflation is a big factor.
    2) OPEC
    3) Most of the world's oil supply is controlled by foreign governments.

  64. My favourite subject - Linux is not a good example by dindi · · Score: 1

    I had a BSD box for 4 years at a hosting service.

    Technically without HW maintenance, and almost no upgrades. That includes web software updates, which lead to various old wordpress, postnuke, phpbb attacks.

    While from time to time these attack succeeded to change the index page or do some stuff, they never actually succeeded to install any root kit, spam bot or do similar damage.

    Why ? Because all the code was compiled for Linux, and even after successfully exploiting bad web programs they were called from the temp dirs : THEY DID NOT RUN. that is a prime example of security through obscurity....

    Now is it really safe : no, but it luckily protected the server against these attacks, and probably the not so obscure Linux boxes fell....

    Just my 2c ... Obscurity should not be used for security, but if you ask me if I wanted a car alarm EVERY ONE has, or one that NO ONE HAS, I go with the latter.....

  65. u r not asking the right question...... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    what is open source.....
    community contribution?
    security bugfix?
    an eagle eye of cracker?

    if u want something to be as stable as u wish....u need to invest by yourself...maybe in terms of money, maybe in terms of skill....
    but not nothing

    just roaring to developers is meaningless...u can choose not to use it.....as long as u don't feel comfortable....

    but when u get on the train....u r not babysitted...be prepared...

  66. I don't get it. by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Security updates for whatever apps you have installed on your Windows machine aren't rolled out with minimal intervention on your part--you have to stay abreast of notifications from a variety of vendors. You see more updates for Ubuntu because the distribution aggregates updates across all of those vendors.

    If you really want to, you can only apply the updates once every month, on a Tuesday, if it would make you feel better. I don't understand why you'd want to do this, but you'd then be able to replicate the joys of Patch Tuesday and the attendant month-long wait until vulnerabilities discovered on Wednesday are patched.

  67. Don't forget... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    ...to pay your $699 licensing fee you cock smoking teabaggers!