NASA May Hire Japanese Spacecraft For ISS Service Mission

schliz writes "NASA is talking to Japan's space agency about using one of its spacecraft for servicing missions to the International Space Station, according to Japanese media reports. NASA has been considering various options to maintain its commitment to the Space Station after the Space Shuttle is retired from service in 2010. According to Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun, 'unofficial negotiations' between NASA and the Japan Aerospace Exploration Agency (Jaxa) began in February."

Comments

In return?

[billy901]

What is Japan going to want in return for this? It's only fair that we give them something. This could easily be a win win situation for us though. We maintain our commitment to the ISS, and Japan not only looks good lending out a space shuttle to the US but could also something major in return. Please reply with your idea about what Japan could get in return.

Re:In return?

[abstract daddy]

They already have so much cool shit that they probably don't need anything.

Re:In return?

[Anonymous Coward]

Money, duh! The same thing the Russians got when they were the sole suppliers to the ISS for a couple of years.

It is a good deal for NASA. The most wasteful Space Shuttle missions are the resupply missions. It is idiotic to spend $1 billion per Space Shuttle flight when two of these spacecraft can do the same for about $250 million.

Re:In return?

[Anonymous Coward]

My guess is they'll buy F-22s. They've been asking to buy them for a while, and there's certainly been a history of sales of US fighters to them.

Re:In return?

[xpuppykickerx]

They should ask to have their military back. Just saying.

Re:In return?

[afidel]

Nope, the Air Force and Congress are pretty adamant about not selling the F-22 to anyone. They are willing to sell the F-35 JSF however which in many ways is a detuned F-22.

Re:In return?

[kellyb9]

What is Japan going to want in return for this?

They'll probably want Irrigation and Iron Working in return. Possibly 40 gold pieces and a Defensive Pact. I'm sorry... I've been playing a lot of civ lately.

Re:In return?

[4D6963]

I hope they don't want butt sex in return.

Butt sex? Certainly not. But bukkake? Who knows.. This time NASA may wipe more than just sweat off their foreheads.

Re:In return?

[Anonymous Coward]

They need advanced weaponry for the next time Godzilla attacks.

Re:In return?

[Illbay]

Well, we tried that, but all the Japanese ambassador would say is "That's not going to happen."

Re:In return?

[strelitsa]

We're not doing anything important with Guam right now. Hell, throw in all the Marianas just to be a mensch.

Re:In return?

[kellyb9]

The benevolent Americans demand that you give us Space Flight and Atomic Theory or else we will have to crush your puny civilization!

Re:In return?

[abstract daddy]

I'm sure they already have, like, a robotic schoolgirl who launches radioactive explosive panties from an arm cannon.

Re:In return?

[ianare]

more like genetic engineering or stealth ... if they need iron working I doubt they would have rocketry !!

Re:In return?

[kellyb9]

Haha this is one of the things I love about Slashdot, no matter how obscure the thing your referencing is, there are always people around to tell you you're wrong.

Re:In return?

[Wiarumas]

Ironically enough, all they asked for was for Spike to take Most Extreme Elimination Challenge off the air.

Re:In return?

[J05H]

it's called money. JAXA would get cold, hard cash in return for HTV (which still hasn't flown)

These rumors of a NASA/JAXA deal have been discounted, which probably means they are true. Mike Griffin is trying to slay the various US commercial spaceflight providers by going offshore to another government agency.

Re:In return?

[m.ducharme]

Yoshimi, is that you?

Re:In return?

[ricegf]

They are willing to sell the F-35 JSF however which in many ways is a detuned F-22.

Other than a generally similar body shape, the F-22 and F-35 have little in common. The F-35 is a clean sheet design by a Lockheed / Northrop / BAES team focused on strike and close air support missions, vertical take-off and landing, and carrier operations. The F-22 preceded it by 10 years, was designed by a Lockheed / Boeing team, and focuses on air dominance.

Different missions, different designs. The F-35 is far more versatile and affordable than its predecessor, and unlike the F-22 was designed from the ground up as an export product. It's not as good at the mission for which the F-22 was designed (of course!), but it's hardly "detuned".

Re:In return?

[CodeBuster]

One funny thing I remember from Civ III was the fact that while the laser was a required civilization advance for the space ship, it was only needed to construct "the interplanetary party lounge". Apparently the "interplanetary party lounge" is an essential component of the space ship and it cannot launch either without it or without a laser for the disco smoke machine...

Re:In return?

[peragrin]

Very true. a lot of the R&D costs of the F-35 are actually tech and tenquies learned from the F-22 making the cost of the plane far far lower.

Re:In return?

[Shakrai]

The benevolent Americans demand that you give us Space Flight and Atomic Theory or else we will have to crush your puny civilization!

I think the Japanese learned first hand about atomic theory from the benevolent Americans ;)

(Yes, I'm going straight to hell....)

Re:In return?

[lukas84]

I think the Japanese learned first hand [wikipedia.org] about atomic theory from the benevolent Americans ;)

I just damn well hope that Wikipedia link isn't needed for anyone to get the joke.

Re:In return?

[antirelic]

This is a great idea. The Japanese are a very ingenious people. If their space ships are half as impressive as Mr. Roboto, we are in business!!!

Re:In return?

[gstoddart]

Haha this is one of the things I love about Slashdot, no matter how obscure the thing your referencing is, there are always people around to tell you you're wrong.

Slashdot. (n) A place on the internet where pedantry, grammar nazis, and bickering over minor semantics reigns supreme.

Cheers

Re:In return?

[Shakrai]

I just damn well hope that Wikipedia link isn't needed for anyone to get the joke.

You'd be surprised ;)

Re:In return?

[utopianfiat]

"Japan is superior", +1, Insightful

Not that parent shouldn't have been modded up, it's just when a funny post gets modded insightful, sometimes it scares me.

Re:In return?

[utopianfiat]

Do you have trouble introducing yourself in Spanish?

I'm going to lose hella karma for this post.

Re:In return?

[Anonymous Coward]

According to Japanese newspaper Yomiuri Shimbun ...

This thread is now about horrible romanization schemes.

Re:In return?

[GrayNimic]

it's called money. JAXA would get cold, hard cash in return for HTV (which still hasn't flown)

Most NASA ISS deals are "No Exchange of Funds". It's all barters - you build it, I'll fly it; I'll maintain it, you give me some cargo room; I'll let you use it, you'll give me a crew member slot; etc. Some deals are using money (most notably some of the deals with Russia, and I think Italy (not ESA)), but the majority of them are barters.

Forward-thinking rocket design

[elrous0]

I bet the damn thing will be a hybrid that gets great fuel mileage, has an onboard dancing robot, and ends up outselling all the American rocket companies within 10 years.

Re:Forward-thinking rocket design

[tb()ne]

I bet the damn thing will be a hybrid that gets great fuel mileage, has an onboard dancing robot, and ends up outselling all the American rocket companies within 10 years.

And don't forget it comes with a standard 100,000,000 mile warrenty.

Re:Forward-thinking rocket design

[AioKits]

Will the astronauts (cosmonauts) have to wear skimpy revealing space suits now that are color coordinated to their jobs?

Re:Forward-thinking rocket design

[Anonymous Coward]

May *hire*? Isn't this an international effort? Doesn't Japan have its own ISS module?

Why would we have to pay them to service a machine that they have a stake in themselves?

Hire ?

[Anonymous Coward]

The Japs have reusable spacecraft !?

Bad Idea

[Illbay]

Every time a Japanese spacecraft gets involved, it ends up bringing back space-spores that grow unnoticed behind the repair shed and then turn into those stop-action monster-thingies that level whole cities.

Unless we hire and train a Space Patrol before the thing ever takes off, I think we should nix the whole idea.

Re:Bad Idea

[TechnoBunny]

Tescos are selling Space patrols now? Every little helps, I suppose.....

Re:Bad Idea

[semiriot]

I'm sure the Prince of Space will come to our rescue.

Re:Bad Idea

[Clockwork Apple]

We're doomed.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-2102493327413792072

C.

Guts and Glory

[Doc Ruby]

Japan could get in return valuable space operations experience, and first rate publicity for their space program which should help them get more of their own domestic funding.

Just like NASA gets.

This is the International Space Station. All the science is published. All the different nations get to develop and test their space tech in (and orbiting) the real world. They get to test interop with the global space industry. They get the glory of high profile missions featured on US, and then international, TV.

The US already takes the risk of leading this project. It already is the guarantor of funding, and pays most of the bills. Why should Japan get paid to get the same benefits the US has to pay to get?

Re:Guts and Glory

[rbanffy]

"Why should Japan get paid to get the same benefits the US has to pay to get?"

Because they won't do it for free?

Re:Guts and Glory

[Doc Ruby]

Yes they will. That's what diplomacy is all about. Negotiations between countries for their mutual benefit.

If Japan wants to be included in more space science missions, it will join the mission in the same spirit the US leads it.

Or lead their own and invite the US along.

Re:Guts and Glory

[khallow]

Because Japan is providing a service that NASA needs. And to be honest, valuable space operations experience and first rate publicity just isn't that valuable without a paying customer.

Re:Guts and Glory

[rbanffy]

In any way you put it, they won't do it for free.

They may even do it for no money, but, after all, that's what diplomacy is for - to turn money (or the lack of it) into political influence.

Re:Guts and Glory

[Doc Ruby]

NASA is providing plenty of services in return, in the rest of the mission. The paying customers in each case are the taxpayers of each nation, which get an escalated domestic space industry capacity, and the glory.

How is the US the only one for which these missions are worth spending the money?

Re:Guts and Glory

[Doc Ruby]

Well, no one's asking them to do it for nothing.

But "for no money" is equal to "for free". Though, as I keep pointing out, Japan would get benefits apart from a monetary fee.

FWIW, diplomacy often uses money, but it is not always defined by money. Diplomacy is to turn communication into political influence, even when no money changes hands, or even remains in the same hands in any differential. Diplomacy negotiates exchanges, but they can be entirely non material, and valued completely differently on either side of the table, as money is not.

Re:Guts and Glory

[khallow]

NASA is providing plenty of services in return, in the rest of the mission. The paying customers in each case are the taxpayers of each nation, which get an escalated domestic space industry capacity, and the glory.

How is the US the only one for which these missions are worth spending the money?

The US was the only ones who had to rationalize dubious expensive public spending, namely the Space Shuttle and the at least $2 billion a year that goes to NASA contractors whether the Shuttle flies or not. Or pursue costly nuclear proliferation decisions like delaying the ISS in exchange for paying Russia to keep better care of their rocket scientists. Nobody else has weird agendas that require them to overspend greatly on space objectives. Japan is simply making a rational decision.

Re:Guts and Glory

[Doc Ruby]

Yeah, Japan's decision to get paid to do what America is giving to the world for free is indeed rational. Nice work if you can get it.

But that has nothing to do with how the US uses NASA for other political agendas. Even if those agendas, at US expense, keep Russian rocket scientists in space exploration rather than weapons development, pointing missiles at Japan across the Japan Sea. Why not? The US pays for most of Japan's domestic defense anyway, not to mention the rest of the global security that protects Japan's export empire and the sources of the imports that keep Japan alive.

But like I said, that has nothing to do with whether Japan should pay its own way in the ISS mission. Japan's not being asked to pay for the rest of the US' agenda, whether that other agenda benefits Japan or not.

What I'm saying is that Japan's participation in the ISS program benefits Japan the way that the US' participation benefits the US. Which is why the US pays its way. Sure, the US also pays the way of some countries, like Russia, because Russia can't even feed its own people (while its oilocracy is diverting the economy to Putin's cronies), and Russia is of course a security threat to the rest of the world unless its idle hands are kept at constructive work. But that shouldn't stop Japan, which would be investing in its own domestic space industry here. Why should the US pay for that?

I suppose that since the US would have to spend money borrowed from Japan (and others) on top of the $400B the US already borrowed from Japan, it's "rational" of Japan to demand payment that will also become something like 150% bigger once fully paid off as US Treasury Bonds. But there's nothing rational at all in the US deciding to do something foolhardy like that.

Re:Guts and Glory

[Kumiorava]

You forget that US has much bigger stake in the ISS than any other country. This mean US also takes bigger responsibility of the expenses, gets more research time, more astronaut days, and so on. All the benefits are related to the expenses paid in creating the space station. You cannot pin these agreed expenses on some other country just because you feel the other country is also getting benefits out of the trip, whole reason of the joint venture is that everyone benefits based on their investment in the venture. If NASA really wanted someone to take responsibility of some part of its duties I'm sure it could be arranged, it would just mean that NASA would need to trade in some of the ISS benefits (astronaut time, research time) against that.

Re:Guts and Glory

[Doc Ruby]

But I'm not asking Japan to pay for the rest of the ISS outside their own mission. I'm just saying that Japan should pay its own way. Since the ISS is so much bigger than this Japanese mission, that means that Japan is getting to take advantage of a much larger infrastructure in their own mission than they could possibly afford on their own. So Japan's mission is an investment in its own space program that is already subsidized by the US' very large investment in the rest of the ISS.

The US shouldn't additionally subsidize the Japanese space program on top of that by also paying it cash. That's ridiculous. And exactly the kind of insult that, if reversed, would help drive the relationship between the two countries apart. If that deal were further falsely portrayed as also asking Japan to pay for ISS expenses beyond Japan's own mission, that kind of talk would really damage the relationship, for good reason.

This is not true, according to NASA

[casualsax3]

http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2008-07/22/content_8742715.htm

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[$RANDOMLUSER]

Strangely, though, the announcement referenced isn't on NASA's recent press releases page.

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[crymeph0]

It is on NASA's site, though. Searching Google for some text from the press release yielded this link.

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[sjonke]

It's actually half true. They *were* going to buy Japan's spacecraft, until they found out that it wouldn't include one of those nifty escape pod vending machines.

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[rufey]

And here.

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[Xtifr]

You must be kidding! Surely Slashdot's high-quality editorial and fact-checking department wouldn't have let a mistake of this magnitude through to hit the front page, would they?

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[meringuoid]

From my email yesterday:

From: NASA News (hqnews@mediaservices.nasa.gov)
Sent: Mon 7/21/08 4:00 PM
To: NASA News (hqnews@mediaservices.nasa.gov)

July 21, 2008

John Yembrick
Headquarters, Washington
202-358-0602
John.yembrick-1@nasa.gov

RELEASE: 08-181

STATEMENT ON INACCURATE REPORTS ABOUT JAPANESE CARGO SERVICES

WASHINGTON -- Contrary to news reports, NASA has not officially or
unofficially been discussing the purchase of H-II Transfer Vehicles
(HTV) -- uninhabited resupply cargo ships for the space station --
from the Japanese Space Agency, or JAXA.

NASA is committed to domestic commercial cargo resupply to the space
station and does not plan to procure cargo delivery services from
Japan. As part of our original agreements as compensation for common
system operating costs NASA has limited cargo capability on the
Japanese and European cargo vehicles. NASA has recently issued a
request for proposal for the cargo needs of International Space
Station beyond those supplied by our current international
agreements. NASA has chosen to depend on commercial resupply of cargo
delivery to the station.

-end-

To subscribe to the list, send a message to:
hqnews-subscribe@mediaservices.nasa.gov
To remove your address from the list, send a message to:
hqnews-unsubscribe@mediaservices.nasa.gov

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[Talderas]

Our cruisers can't repel mistakes of that magnitude!

Re:This is not true, according to NASA

[Pumpkin Tuna]

FYI - when you go looking for news to post to prove something to the world, try skipping China's state-run propaganda machine as a source.

Denied by NASA

[photonic]

Apparently, NASA has already issued a statement denying this rumor. I couldn't find a press release on NASA's own website, though.

NASA Statement

[everphilski]

Statement from nasa.gov

That's odd.

[Blice]

Probably the more interesting thing to note here is that JAXA even *has* a spacecraft for something of that sort. They aren't really known for that, more so for their satellites. At any rate, NASA has a lot more resources for these kind of missions under their belt.

You can see their current (and future planned) rockets and spacecrafts on their site. The spacecraft in question, H-II, was only announced recently in 2008, and I guess that's why I couldn't find any other similar ships on wiki, etc.

And what happened to Russia? I thought they were a huge part of the ISS, and just recently the RSA received a lot more interest from their government if I recall correctly, so why aren't we poking sticks at them?

Re:That's odd.

[kellyb9]

Probably the more interesting thing to note here is that JAXA even *has* a spacecraft for something of that sort.

I dount Sun would support JAVA spacecrafts anyway... not until they have it on the iPhone at least.

Re:That's odd.

[meringuoid]

And what happened to Russia? I thought they were a huge part of the ISS, and just recently the RSA received a lot more interest from their government if I recall correctly, so why aren't we poking sticks at them?

Russia's Progress supply ships have been keeping the ISS running for years. When the Shuttle was grounded after Columbia, it was the Russians who kept the project alive.

It was a close-run thing, though; the Shuttle's cargo capacity dwarfs Progress, and it was a major loss. Hence the development of independent cargo ships by ESA and Japan. These are much bigger than Soyuz, and also divide the labour three ways instead of relying on Russia alone to produce enough rockets.

Re:That's odd.

[DerekLyons]

Probably the more interesting thing to note here is that JAXA even *has* a spacecraft for something of that sort.

Well, only sorta. The HTV is untested and so is the H-IIB booster that will be used to place it in orbit.
 

The spacecraft in question, H-II, was only announced recently in 2008

The spacecraft in question (the HTV) has been on the drawing boards for well over a decade - originally scheduled to enter service in 2001, it has been much delayed by lack of funding by JAXA and ongoing problems with the H-II booster.
 

And what happened to Russia? I thought they were a huge part of the ISS, and just recently the RSA received a lot more interest from their government if I recall correctly, so why aren't we poking sticks at them?

Japan is one of the major partners as well... That being said, we are poking sticks at the Russians but they can barely meet their own commitments for the foreseeable future. (The Soyuz and Progress capsules are built JIT and the components thereof in small intermittent lots - which makes it very difficult to increase the production rate.)

Re:That's odd.

[DerekLyons]

When the Shuttle was grounded after Columbia, it was the Russians who kept the project alive. It was a close-run thing, though; the Shuttle's cargo capacity dwarfs Progress, and it was a major loss. Hence the development of independent cargo ships by ESA and Japan.

That's only 'mostly correct'. The ATV (ESA) and HTV (JAXA) cargo craft predate the loss of Columbia by years - they've been on the drawing boards since the early/mid 1990's. ATV was supposed to have first flown in, IIRC, 2003. HTV was supposed to first fly in 2001.
 

These are much bigger than Soyuz, and also divide the labour three ways instead of relying on Russia alone to produce enough rockets.

Again, only mostly correct. While ATV/HTV can carry far more cargo that Soyuz, they can't ferry passengers. For that matter, your average Mini Cooper has a higher cargo capacity than Soyuz. (OK, I exaggerate. But not by much.)

I suspect

[WindBourne]

that NASA is playing all sides at this time. EU and Russia have solutions, but both are trying to charge arm/leg. SpaceX is unknown as to whether it will be ready in time. I suspect that if this week's falcon fails, then NASA will cut deals quickly with all the above. But if it works, then they are going to feel better. The one issue is that NASA is feeling very threatened by SpaceX. Congress will have a difficult time seeing that constellation really is a different beast than the falcon9/dragon. Of course, if Spacex really does pursue the BFR, then it will be difficult to see any differences.

If it's a Japanese rocket....

[pandrijeczko]

...then it's bound to be shaped like a giant alien tentacle and that a partly-dressed cartoon schoolgirl will be involved somewhere in the "docking" sequence with the ISS.

More Offshoring?

[feedayeen]

Another industry offshores off to Asia.

What's with the nationlism?

[pembo13]

Do Japanese make inferior engineers or something?

Re:What's with the nationlism?

[Icegryphon]

No, that is Korea. kekekekeke

Uhm...think again...

[mastallama]

Actually, NASA has said they're not going to use Japan. http://www.livescience.com/blogs/author/tariqmalik/

The ISS is cool!

[Presto Vivace]

I don't have any insight to offer. I just think everything connected to the ISS is ultra cool.

Jap Bureaucracy is a tortuous labyrinth

[sandysnowbeard]

Well, at least NASA started negotiating with Japan now, in 2008, as it often takes a year of unofficial negotiation before official negotiation occurs. How about an analogy?

******

If NASA and Jaxa were two school chums and NASA wanted to borrow Jaxa's car for the weekend, Jaxa would have to consult with every person he's ever met in his life and all of their immediate relatives, carefully weighing the effects of loaning his car on each individual. After considering everyone's opinions, Jaxa would then RECONSULT each individual again and let him know of the other's thoughts. This would occur roughly ~50 times. Only then would Jaxa talk to NASA again, most likely to ask a simple question like, "So what time do you need it on Friday?"

Couldn't they just get Mothra to bring the stuff?

[jddj]

Bet the ISS astronauts would love a visit from those hot Japanese fairy twins... ;)

Warranty.

[antdude]

Yes, I am a spelling Nazi. It's warranty, not warrenty.

Re:Warranty.

[elrous0]

Is it some compulsion that leads you to do that, or does it just feed some smug sense of superiority?

NASA Statement on Inaccurate Reports...

[Anonymous Coward]

http://www.nasa.gov/home/hqnews/2008/jul/HQ_08181_HTV_statement.html

Aw geez just call MASA.

[korbin_dallas]

Kyle: Yes, yes, hello? Is this Mr. Su-gi-yama with the Japanese space program? [waits for the answer] How much to take a whale into space? [waits for the answer] Nu-no, we don't want you to eat the whale, we want you to send it to the moon. How much? Jesus Christ! Uh hang on. [puts Mr. Sugiyama on hold as he answers another call] Hello? Jimmy, any luck at the Chinese Embassy?

Jimmy: [with Timmy and Tweek] The Ch-Chinese will take someone to space for t-t-ten million dollars.

Kyle: Ten million?? Well that's more than the Germans want!

Jimmy: Yeah. We told them that, a-and they told us to go f-fuck ourselves.

Kyle: Damnit! [hangs up without returning to Mr. Sugiyama] Tell me what to do, Willzy-x! How do we get you home??

Cartman: He hasn't said a word since we brought him here.

Kyle: Yeah... He must be really sick. [walks up to the whale and strokes him] Hang on Willzy-x. There's still hope. Stan and Craig might still luck with the space program down in Mexico.

Clyde: Mexico has a space program?
        [Somewhere in Mexico. A bus lets Stan and Craig out and leaves. Stan follows the directions on a map, and the station they're in has a neglected beauty about it. Lots of fountains, but litter as well]

Stan: Uh, 'xcuse me, we're looking for the Mexican... Aeronautica y Spacia Administrashown?

Man: Allá

Stan: Thanks. [they leave and arrive at MASA - Mexicana Aeronáutica y Spacia Administración] Is this the Mexican space program? [again, neglected beauty, and the place looks quite primitive for a space admiminstration, straight out of the 1950s.]

Man 2: Space, sí. Fly.

Stan: Does the Mexican space programs have rockets that can go to the moon?

Man 2: Flow, sí, sumi. [sets down the part he was cleaning and goes inside the complex. The boys follow him] The roque lunar?

Stan: This rocket will fly to the moon?

Man 2: Sí, fly.

Stan: To the moon?

Man 2: Sí.

Stan: [enunciates] We want to take something to the moon. How much would that cost?

Man 2: O-ah... Two hundred.

Stan: Two hundred? Million?

Man 2: Two hundred... dollars.

Stan: [to Craig] Quick, call Kyle.

Japanese reply courtesy of South Park

[sokoban]

We are very simple people. With very small rocket. We cannot achieve much with so small rocket. But you! Americans. Wow! Rocket so big! SOOO big rocket!

Furthermore

[Anonymous Coward]

Our words are backed by NUCLEAR WEAPONS

Japan can benefit from this..

[ProfessionalHostage]

.. to make this as the new front for the Gundam project.

We know that the Ministry of Agriculture already shown that they don't have the capacity to contain this issue.

With NASA, at least they'll have a good alibi when asked about their reason to go into orbit so frequently.

In other news

[kpainter]

NASA changes name to JASA