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IBM Granted "Paper-or-Plastic?" Patent
theodp writes "On Tuesday, IBM was granted US Patent No. 7,407,089 for storing a preference for paper or plastic grocery bags on customer cards and displaying a picture of said preference after a card is scanned. The invention, Big Blue explains, eliminates the 'unnecessary inconvenience for both the customer and the cashier' that results when 'Paper or Plastic?' must be asked. The patent claims also cover affixing a cute sticker of a paper or plastic bag to a customer card to indicate packaging preferences. So does this pass the 'significant technical content' test, IBM'ers?"
How about we also solve the "debit or credit" problem I have to deal with each time I visit the mini-mart?
Answering paper or plastic isn't as inconvenient as having to carry around an identification card for every store I shop at. Why don't they just combine all the cards into a single ID. Yeah, and while they're at it, pulling that one card out of my pocket sounds inconvenient too, so why not just permanently affix it to my right hand or forehead. I'm so lucky that everyone wants to help me. /sarcasm off
In Denmark, where "no-nonsense" is a lifestyle, you pay +/- 1$ for each bag you want. (Makes you think twice about double-bagging!). In Belgium, you buy a reusable bag from the store. If it wears out or tears, you can trade it in for free. In the US, you guys are patenting your dependency on foreign oil.
10 ?"Hello World" life was simple then
While in reality it may seem too simple and even stupid for some, the fact that none of us thought of it before and had implemented it shows it as unique.
The process itself is simple: Affix a sticker (much like any other sticker), and next time the cashier needs to only scan it instead of asking.
Morally objectionable: I don't think so. Not commonly used. Although a bit dumb.
Legally Valid: Yes.
"Doing what i can, with what i have." ~ Burt Gummer
I can't decide who I think less of, the person that thought to file this or the person that actually granted it...
I believe prior art exists for the invention of storing and retrieving user preferences.
In Seattle Washington, our City Counsel just voted a 20 cent per bag (paper or plastic) tax. Indeed, the city also outlawed the sale of water in plastic single-use bottles in or on all city owned property. I believe that more and more municipalities are headed this direction.
But it's still an asinine patent that is a perfect example of one of the many problems with our patent system.
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The common one you get from people is either they get into the water and damager wild life, or they don't bio-degrade.
correct.
If its damage, then if you take care to dispose, how is it an issue?
if they're not biodegradable, then how do you dispose of the millions of bags that are thrown in the trash every day? where do you put them?
If its bio-degrade, I dont get that either. They arent the largest things around. Is it a significant issue?
you under-estimate the number of plastic bags thrown away each day. They aren't only used in supermarkets for your groceries. Practically every store uses them (clothing, electronics, books, everything). There is also plastic packaging. Plastic bags ARE a HUGE problem.
the really amazing thing here is that those bags seem to know where they are, so they don't decompose when they're not buried in a dump!
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With our crazy patent system, if you're as big as IBM is, the smart thing to do is to patent anything and everything you do. Even if you don't intend to enforce the patent, it prevents someone else from patenting the same thing and suing you. Given court costs to defend against a patent suit and the multi-million dollar awards if you lose, $1500 for a patent application seems like really cheap insurance.
Throw-away products, plastic or paper bags, disposable cameras, packaging materials, whatever, are wasteful, in principle. It costs energy to produce them and to dispose of them. If a long lasting alternative is available, it is almost always better. Lasting products can often be fixed if they are broken, and if you don't need them anymore, you can give them away or sell them.
assignment != equality != identity
China has just implemented this policy as well, you must pay 0.2 RMB if you want a plastic bag. Stores which still give plastic bags for free will be fined, or worse, shut down.
All in the name of environment.
The cost saved has never been passed to customers. Worse yet, stores have been taking in even more profits, selling at amazing high price all kinds of shopping bags.
The cost is totally transfered to customers. There are other side affects too, as a result. People used to put their garbage in those plastic bags, tied them up before throwing them in the common garbage bin. Now, they just dump the garbage directly in, bringing flies and other insects, and having very stinky neighborhood.
We used to use those as garbage bags as well, and as we are only two, we don't have much garbage. The smallish grocery store bags are just perfect for daily garbage. Now we have to buy those larger black bags, which we can't fill in one day. Since we don't like stinky overnight garbage in house, we throw away a half empty bag, which is a waste. So, for our family of two, this policy does not seem to do any good to environment. Unless we are willing to keep garbage overnight, of course.
The so-called experts on the panel who decided this policy (in closed door, as all other policies in China) admitted they didn't consider any of the social and cost issues before they passed it. As if this is new to any one.
In america, we have 'competition'. So grocery stores try not to annoy us by trying to charge for stupid crap like a sheet of plastic film.
I think the biodegradable plastic bags sound like the better choice and much more preferable then a 20 cent tax per bag (although it might end up costing more then 20 cents per bag, at least its actually doing something rather then just punishing people)
Your recommendation appears based on the notion that not using plastic bags is punishing someone. I don't see how alternative approaches can ever be considered punishment, given that convenience of any type involves a trade-off, and the negative connotations of the term are more appropriate for bumperstickers and negative campaign ads than for reasoned discussion.
By offering plastic bags, the tradeoff is mostly the wasteful use of resources vs. the customer being able to carry home their purchases. With plastic rings for 6-packs of aluminum cans, the tradeoff includes an even more wasteful use of resources, threats to the marine environment, and the collective cost borne by the rest of society vs. marketing effectiveness (6-packs on sale!) on the part of the retailer, and easy-to-carry benefits on the part of the consumer.
My own opinion is that anything that encourages environmental responsibility and awareness of the true costs involved by all parties is A Good Thing. If that requires a minor incovenience or a similarly minor change of habit and routine on the part of everyone involved, so be it. If it involves a surcharge, then the surcharge will remind people that they have to take into account what the realities are when they make their purchasing decisions and force them responsible for their actions. At the moment, we don't see $20 Environmentally Destructive Surcharge sticker on computer motherboards, but if it comes to that, I'm sure we'd all benefit from it.
You can, of course, seek or encourage compromise solutions. However, the plastic bag problem is relatively simple to fix, so I don't see any need to pursue half-hearted or partially-effective schemes at the periphery when something more fundamental needs addressing. Namely, resources of all types have their limits, we're too wasteful as a society, we're only too happy to remain ignorant of the consequences, and everything has a cost that someone, somewhere pays.
The irony here is that instead of taking the opportunity to use the plastic bag issue as a symbolic Step in the Right Direction and moving on with what we've learned, we're busy arguing over whether consumers are being punished.
Won't someone please think of the consumers! ;-)
For every person who "takes care to dispose" there's six more who don't.
That's an issue.
No sig today...
In Belgium we have proper beer. So grocery stores try not to annoy us by selling bland liquids like Budweiser.
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I forsee a new economy based on the shopping bag currency being deployed soon. Banks will loan out 100 bags and expect 200 in return. Bag counterfeitters will be charged with the highest penalties, whilst governments print their own bags at will.
What if the store had a loyalty card that they would be required to present if they wanted my custom?
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I was dreaming up a whole post about the problems with plastic bags, but I think I'll take it a different way. Forget about saving the world, I don't use plastic bags because they are an inferior tool for the task.
I have several bags that I use for shopping, including: a messenger bag and a canvas tote (which I also use for carrying things generally) and three insulated bags specifically used for grocery shopping. I leave the grocery bags in the car so they are always ready. These bags are better because...
1) I've never had one break in the two years I've used them for shopping. That means since I've started using them I've never had to run into the street to catch rolling cans of tomato sauce, or wash spilled milk out of my driveway - things that both paper and plastic bags have left me doing.
2) The bags are more comfortable for my hands. If I have a heavy grocery load, it's nice to have a wide, padded handle instead of the narrow plastic that digs into my palms. I can even throw my messenger bag over my shoulder.
3) When I use the insulated bags for groceries I can feel just a little safer leaving cold things sit for a bit if I have to run some other errands, or if I go shopping using transit or my bike.
The fact that it's better for the environment and U.S. oil dependency is just icing on the cake. And if I forget my bags, or drop by the store unexpectedly - then I just go ahead and take the paper or plastic bags and use them as liners for my garbage cans.
In some ways you are right, bags are not that bad in the big scheme of things. If you had a choice of creating an alternative to petrol or an alternative to plastic bags - petrol would be the clear answer. But why force yourself into a false dichotomy? Just because something is not a huge problem does not mean it is not a problem. The Pacific Garbage Patch is a dramatic example of how small pieces of litter add up to a big problem.
The environmental issues we face today are the result of generations of incremental and seemingly insignificant choices made by billions of people - why should the solutions be any different? Choose paper because it's just a little bit better than plastic (or, find a way to compost biodegradable bags if you can - even lobby for a organic waste program in your city if you feel like going the extra mile), and if it fits your lifestyle choose reusable bags over paper or plastic because they are better for both you AND the environment.
If you don't get regular plastic bags free with your shopping, you end up buying bigger, thicker plastic bags wrapped in another plastic bag to throw out your rubbish. Plus obviously you've gotta buy a bag to put your shopping in. How is that more environmentally friendly? You probably use up two or three times the amount of plastic.
Look out!
The size of his bag(fnarr!) is irrelevant, since you wouldn't be able to carry three trolleyloads in any kind of bags - recycleable, reusable or oxygen free carbon fibre with brass knobs on.
If I go to the supermarket on foot, I take a rucksack. If I go by car I use stackable/nestable crates which I fill at the checkout and take straight from the trunk into the house. Perhaps this only works for able-bodied people who have some sort of intelligence and a modicum of organisation?
Confucius say, "Find worm in apple - bad. Find half a worm - worse."
Even the oil companies admit they can't get the new oil to market in less than five to ten years.
So, should we not pursue alternative energy also? It takes time to bring to market also. Heck, even educating and convincing consumers to change their habits takes time. We should not pursue your plan by that logic also. Conservation is a good thing, but it won't replace long term production, unless we just stop growing. We have to get our energy from somewhere.
And 5 years is too long? Pfft! What, are you six? Is that forever to you? Who cares if it takes 50 years...think of the grandchildren! But, seriously, have you heard of the futures market, it speculatively bid on things that are, like, in the future. Part of the reason why oil is so high is because the speculation is that there won't be enough oil in the future to meet demand, thanks for that gift, pal.
The fastest easiest way to add more oil to the market is to cut back on usage.
What? huh? Who cares how much oil you are "adding to the market" if you are not using it! That's like saying, "Hey, everybody! We could add more food to the market if we add just stop eating! Hooray!" Please do not mistake me, I am not against conservation. Clearly in my last analogy, there are some people (not everybody) who could go with less food. They would have more personal wealth and there would be more food available for others, but this will not keep feeding people indefinitely. The world's population today could not have lived on the food supply of ages past, even if everybody was on strict rations.
One last thing: Sometimes I wonder; "Is that someone's signature? Or do they type that at the end of each post?"
... there is no less plastic bag... ignore the bag that I buy, this is indeed my very own problem:
:)
-1 plastic bag not given for free
+1 plastic bag bought from store to use as trash
------------
0 Total gain in plastic quantity used in the household. Carbon Offset == 0.
I don't care about paying for the bags. I was noting that the "green" argument is crap. Let the supermarkets tell me that free bags make a 200,000USD dent in their budget every month and due to diminishing margin and increased food price they can't afford to do it anymore. That's fine. I run a business and I can understand. Just don't try to tell me it's going to save the planet.
I did my very small part with energy saving bulbs, tap water thingy supposed to save water, sorting my garbage between paper, plastic, glass and the rest and setting up global switch so I don't have dozen of electronic equipment sucking power while idling. And I dutifully pay my premium on "fair trade" products even though I don't believe it is a good solution nor that the money really goes where it should.
Even my washing machine was almost twice as expensive because of the 5 start energy rating and water saving feature. That investment paid for itself though.
Finally I don't think that asking people to "go green" is any solution. Government should coerce companies and people to do "the right thing" through taxes and incentives.
I am one of the few here to be happy about the current gas price, I understand the pain it is causing worldwide especially in under-developed nations but I sincerly hope it will double again and increase even more the incentive for govs and private companies to start looking at alternatives. A little jump in price and even BMW announces electric cars... double it and we might get the few millions investment we need to get decent solar panel mass produced at competitive rate. It might even become a requirement in future zoning law who knows...
You want to save the planet? Use a bike and vote for officials who will actually enforce environmental policies.
Cheers
So we need to market bags that are trendy and won't get grungy? What a shame not destroying the environment requires that the good choice also be stylish. I wonder where the threshold for survival vs. trendiness is?
Plastic bags are NOT a problem. Stop buying into it and read up.
1) The degrade a lot faster then paper bags.
2) Bags made in the US are not from oil(You didn't make this point, but it always crops up)
3) A lot of people use plastic bags as garbage bags. Getting rid of plastic grocery bags means more people are buying 'regular' trash bags; which are far worse in every respect.
Charging a fee hurts the poor. Yes, 1 dollar can mean the difference between eating and not eating.
How about we do it another way? a 20 cent discount for every reusable bag a customer uses?
A large portion of people would switch very quickly. Of course we still have the garbage bag issue.
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One easy solution: Get twelve bags.
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