Evidence of Russian Cyberwarfare Against Georgia

An anonymous reader writes "In what seems to be a repeat of what happened in July, a few news sites have mentioned that there is evidence of a campaign against Georgia. For example, both the government's and the president's sites are inaccessible, among other official websites. For some analysis, the RBN Exploit blog demonstrates various traceroutes that have failed to several sites. They also claim that the RBN (Russian Business Network cyber-crime organisation) are behind the attacks, and that 'Many of Georgia's internet servers were under external control from late Thursday,' before the actual war began. Finally, according to this Twitter account of someone in Georgia (written in Russian), he claims that 'Russia has blocked access to Georgian websites from within Russia' (rough translation)."

Comments

They hit CNN

[Anonymous Coward]

After Google told them they were based in Atlanta, Georgia.

Re:They hit CNN

[morgan_greywolf]

No wonder snort kept sending me alerts while I was at the airport in Atlanta...

IF anyone sees any Russians, shoot to kill, boys!

Re:They hit CNN

[clang_jangle]

That was Savannah, you ignernt yankees!

DISCLAIMER: I live in Douglas County. And we all have shotguns here, so they better not try it.

Re:They hit CNN

[Anonymous Coward]

I would not be surprised, given the history of Kremlin behavior, I could not read any Georgian sites cuz they (FSB or russian GRU etc) wanted to spread their well-thought of plan of bashing Georgia and its government of so called "alleged act of war against Russian civilians and all that nonsense", which is obviously not true, since I know Georgians would never do that (I've been there many times). Few of Georgian friends called me this afternoon and requested to help them out to stop DDoS attacks on Debian servers which hosted Georgian sites, and they were trying to tell their side of story of what actually happened and put more information about casualties etc, but unfortunately I could not think of anything, can anyone of you recommend any good means of defending Debian servers against such attacks? I was trying to help out Georgian friend.
You can also send me an email to bubba_bubu@yahoo.com

By the way, for those who wanted to know what's going on, here events that led to a full scale war between Georgia and Russia:
1) August 6th, Georgian part/villages of South Ossetia was constantly shelled from a separatist artillery; although Russians were supposed to be a peace keepers but they did not interfered, neither stopped separatist from shelling Georgian villages;
2) August 6th, georgian president pleaded and called on unilateral cease fire by Georgians and ordered not to respond to any provocation by separatist;
3) Few Georgian civilian bystanders were hit by shrapnel and apparently died; some Georgian military troops were hit as well, few houses were demolished;
4) Georgian envoy sent by president to separatist for negotiation to stand down weapons and cease fire immediately;
5) Allegedly russian party agrees on this, but Georgian envoy car was stopped in checkpoint and blatantly forced back by separatist stating they would not talk to any Georgians, so this attempt was failed.
6) To stop continuous bomb shelling Georgian president calls to restore a constitutional order and military action to drive out criminal structure of South Ossetia. Russian were requested not to intervene.
7) Russia reported that there were many civilian casualties in Tskinvali and apparently 12 Russian peace keepers were wounded or died as a result of military operation; Georgia denied this allegation.
8) Russian prime minister Putin orders full scale military operation against Georgia. Russian strategic bombers start bombing territories deep in Georgia far from conflict zone of South Ossetia i.e. Gory (fully demolished), airport near Tbilisi, Kutaisi (2nd largest city), port Poti located in coast of Black Sea, and South Abkazia (kodori region);
9) All Georgian internet portal were attacked and could not be accessed. Georgian government portal were hijacked by Russians and poster of Hitler and Saakashvili were placed side by side;

Now, since all Russian media and internet is fully controlled by Kremlin (btw there's no freedom of speech in Russia) there is no independent source on Russian side), so all separatist and Russian casualties were blown out of proportion in order to legitimize this invasion;
cheers,
bubzie

Re:They hit CNN

[KGIII]

I was in the Okefenokee (spelling?) just before Thanksgiving of last year. I was off the main roads and out in "real" Georgia, not the Atlanta area or cities. I can confirm the above statement as being likely factually correct. ALL of the racks in the trucks had firearms.

Re:They hit CNN

[Anonymous Coward]

Come 'n get it, bone head!

Re:They hit CNN

[Anonymous Coward]

You skip over what some consider a key point. You say:

6) To stop continuous bomb shelling Georgian president calls to restore a constitutional order and military action to drive out criminal structure of South Ossetia. Russian were requested not to intervene.

What you fail to mention is that this involved launching an unannounced artillery barrage against the separatist region's capital city. An important detail, as this is clearly a huge escalation, taking the conflict from a small-scale ongoing dispute to war. In other words, the Georgians started the war in response to separatist provocation.

Re:They hit CNN

[morgan_greywolf]

Who's a Yankee? I live about an hour north of Tampa.

Re:They hit CNN

[Anonymous Coward]

Not, Atlanta, but Savannah, GA.
You must get your factoids straight, or you'll be shipped out to Siberia once this incitement is over-- and the servers returned to working condition...

Re:They hit CNN

[tehcyder]

DISCLAIMER: I live in Douglas County. And we all have shotguns here, so they better not try it.

Yes, but the Russians have artillery, tanks and fighter/bomber planes.

How about when the government is net-based?

[Anonymous Coward]

It boggles the mind to imagine what warfare will be like when governments are internet-based.

But at least it probably will not involve real violence.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[Kratisto]

Not directly, no, but the effects of digital attacks on a country's infrastructure can result in suffering and fatalities, nonetheless.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[Anonymous Coward]

Net based? Ridiculous! That would be like, modern or something. Government doesnt work that way.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[Anonymous Coward]

It boggles the mind to imagine what warfare will be like when governments are internet-based.

But at least it probably will not involve real violence.

Um, unless you are confused, cyber warfare and normal warfare are not mutually exclusive. I think this current conflict illustrates that point quite clearly.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[Anonymous Coward]

A net based government sounds fine until you need someone to enforce safety regulations, or stop that guy from breaking into your store every thursday, or fight organized crime, or build a road, or maintain the villiage pump, or to stop a monopoly. For those things you need real live people.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[eltaco]

"It has been said that democracy is the worst form of government except all the others that have been tried." -Sir Winston Churchill. http://www.quotationspage.com/quotes/Sir_Winston_Churchill/ Sure, democracy kinda works. But it wasn't democracy that gave us the constitution, which in my eyes, is so much more important than a "majority vote". democracy, as soon as it gets down to simplicities, is 51% oppressing 49%. just to put that in words: the majority fucks over any minority as they please. over here in Europe, we're not even so sure that our representatives are actually acting on behalf of the 51%. What say you, America? as soon as the majority can be coerced (I study advertising, it really isn't that difficult), we're back to who has the most money and who can throw the best parties, sucking up to those people who donate the most money. ya, this ain't news. but too many act like they don't know this. anyhow, my favourite quote of the parent's link: "It is proposed that government can be successful, and even vastly superior, if it has the direct participation of all of the governed. Open source governance incorporates the best features of direct democracy and tempers the drawbacks by use of a superior participation model and community structure." Are we talking about a Grassroots Democracy? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grassroots_democracy oh, I get it! it's a government that lets the populace take part in it's decisions! Kinda like how democracy is (supposed to be). Open source government is a government that listens to it's people.. in contrast to democracy (..?!) I'm not bashing you personally, parent, but democracy isn't the A & O it makes out to be. well, in soviet russia, I give you negative karma.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[eltaco]

oh, heh, I forgot my actual point: a net-based government is in theory only more efficient in obtaining general opinion and "votes". it bumps efficiency to a maximum. no paper, no per-hand counting, no run-arounds for surveys. in practice, you're inviting every black hat world-wide to fraud the vote and the polls. And at that point we're back to voting machines and the surrounding scandals. sorry for the double post. I'm too drunk to find the edit button.

Re:How about when the government is net-based?

[Anonymous Coward]

it's a government that lets the populace take part in it's decisions! Kinda like how democracy is (supposed to be).

It's a government that is the populace making decisions: with no other intermediary. And it is just like democracy is supposed to be, unlike any other system.

It most certainly is not tyranny of the 51%. Nor is it tyranny of the elected few. It is a sophisticated mechanism to build consensus even in issues where consensus usually is not achieved.

Of course they cut access

[ka9dgx]

I'd cut access to any country I was preparing to wage war against... it's common sense to help stop communications to fifth columnists. Of course, they'll route around it. --Mike--

Re:Of course they cut access

[tchiseen]

I also am not surprised. Thousands of people have been killed in good old fashion bombings and shootings, why wouldn't they resort to other types of warfare and propaganda. I'm just surprised they're not doing more. I'm sure if Russia were inclined to, they could do more serious damage to Georgian communications infrastructure. In war, many of peoples rights are disrupted, including freedom of information.

Re:Of course they cut access

[oliderid]

they could do more serious damage to Georgian communications infrastructure

from what I understood, Russia just bombed a relatively important Georgian port and they are actively bombing a georgian town centre close to the border. I feel like Russia forces in the area are already bombing as much as they can. The whole Russian army isn't concentrated in that part of the world.

Anyway it was truly foolish for the Georgian government to attack the rebel region if they knew that their army was no match for the Russian forces...If they didn't know, they should leave the office at once. You didn't need to be a expert to understand that.

The truth is that Russia is about to seize two ex Georgian territories for some good reasons (oppressed minorities) and somes bad ones (Russia is historically interested by southern territories near the black sea...It all started in the XIX, see the crimea war). The current Georgian state cannot do much against it. They should concentrate themselves on economic recovery (there were good signs lately), diplomacy (looking for support in the west was a good idea...But it takes time...Such a strategy requires decades of hard work and diplomatic skills) and building a better future for their citizens.

I had always some sympathy for Georgia, they used to be the last european bastion in front of invaders of all sort (mongols, muslims, etc.), I truly hope they'll get the leaders they deserve.

Re:Of course they cut access

[n dot l]

Anyway it was truly foolish for the Georgian government to attack the rebel region if they knew that their army was no match for the Russian forces...If they didn't know, they should leave the office at once. You didn't need to be a expert to understand that.

My guess is they thought the Russians wouldn't dare fight back too hard after the US voiced support for Georgia entering NATO. They probably overestimated what words are worth in western politics.

Re:Of course they cut access

[scuba0]

I don't know for what reason the port was hit, not heard anything about any military presence there yet. But the there was one bomb that hit a building with 5 people killed. Russia claims they don't bomb civilians, and why would they drop one bomb and not attack more?

All other reported attacks within Georgia has hit military targets. Some of them where the bases where the attacks against South Ossetia went out from.

I read a Swedish source claiming there where Georgian soldiers who started it by shooting the Russian "peace keepers" in South Ossetia. 15 soldiers where reported dead. After that the bombings of the city began from Georgia, and then the Russian air raids started.

I believe that the Georgian president where counting on much more support from west and more fear from Russia from intervening. And thats the "reasoning" for the attack to "reclaim" South Ossetia.

Other sources are reporting that Russia has tried to make deals for them to have an independent government but not being a free state. So I doubt they actually want them to integrate into Russia.

One can also wonder why US, Nato and Georgia refused to accept Russias proposed deal within the UN which they made before the retribution. The deal was that Georgia would leave South Ossetia and talks would begin from there.

Re:Of course they cut access

[Cyberax]

There are enough air bases with bombers close enough to Georgia to bomb it back to stone age.

Fortunately, Russia doesn't want to do it.

Re:Of course they cut access

[musicmaster]

The US strategy in both Iraq and Serbia was "bomb them to the stone age". Compared to that the Russians seem civilized.

But they seem to lack the laserguided precision bombs of the US. So they will cause more civilian deads.

Re:Of course they cut access

[32771]

They do have laser guided bombs:

http://eng.ktrv.ru/production_eng/323/518/519/

So this is the accuracy I guess:

Root mean square deviation, m : 4 - 7

Lets see what comparable bombs the us has:

http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/smart/gbu-27.htm

has a CEP of 8 but the GPS + some other Laser guided ones are better.

Someone mentioned the lack of Glonass guided bombs though:

http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-4381.html

The question is whether they use guided bombs. I would think though that guided bombs are far more efficient. You would need far less bombs to achieve a certain goal, this could reduce the number of planes to use in a mission and who knows what kind of infrastructure is necessary to run
the whole effort. Given that Russia is also running a PR war the added benefit of only hitting what they want may factor into their considerations as well.

Here is a link claiming that their ground weapons used are inaccurate:

http://pajamasmedia.com/richardfernandez/2008/08/09/whos-winning-in-georgia/

Re:Of course they cut access

[rtb61]

It would seem like Geogia did ramp up the hostilities specifically during the Olympic period, expecting support from the US after Georgia supported the US war in Iraq. From the Russian point of view, it was likely taken as the US Administration/republican neocons, prompting Georgia to launch the attack with verbal promises of US support,(the neocons are the ones most concerned with media) all to gauge the Russian Government reaction, that thousands of people die for neocon games, don't expect the GOP to care.

What is important to the neocons is, can it be used for republican political traction in the US elections and, can it be used to pump up US corporate war profits. The over the top reaction from Russia is all about killing off any more neocon political games for profit in what the Russian government deem to be their region of control. Georgia now just looks foolish, after having been screwed over by the neocons with empty promises of support.

Re:Of course they cut access

[Mondor]

The last bastion against Mongols? You must be kidding. Mongols were stopped under Vienna (Austria).

Muslims, on the other hand, took over nearly the whole Spain, Georgia is very far from that region.

The only thing you can thank Georgia for is Stalin. The home town of Stalin, Gori, is under bombardment now. Nearly all butchers of Soviet Russia were originated from Georgia, headed by Stalin and Beria.

At this moment this country is drowning in corruption and poverty, there was a joke that it's better to declare war on USA and immediately surrender to become the 51st state. Now, they are on their way to total destruction of the country, in political sense.

Re:Of course they cut access

[sumdumass]

Wow.. Do you actually believe yourself here?

You managed to take something the US isn't even part of and turn it into a Bush bashing session. Maybe you should just sit back and ask your doctors to adjust your meds. This fallacy you mention is completely made up in your mind. You have no proof to anything that doesn't presuppose that neocons (what ever that is supposed to mean) are evil liars that might act in that way. In fact, is American history has shown anything to be true, it was Clinton who failed to support the Kurds which got Saddam pissed enough to commit genocide on them after their failed revolt. Even if you look further back into history, it has been always the democrats wanting to yank funding and support for foreign nations or freedom fighters in those nations. Yet you seem to be convinced that it is all conservatives or NEOconservatives.

Hey, when you get a grip on reality, come back and play.

Re:Of course they cut access

[Anonymous Coward]

You managed to take something the US isn't even part of and turn it into a Bush bashing session.

The Bush bashing was a little silly, but if you think the US isn't involved, you're the deluded one.

Re:Of course they cut access

[jambox]

The theory is that they didn't think the Russians would risk upsetting the Chinese by letting rip during the olympic opening ceremony. Which was stupid.

Re:Of course they cut access

[n dot l]

The theory is that they didn't think the Russians would risk upsetting the Chinese by letting rip during the olympic opening ceremony. Which was stupid.

I hadn't heard that one yet. Who's theory is this? Please don't tell me this is the official media talking point...

Re:Of course they cut access

[Lord Apolon]

Sorry, boss. The TURKS, not the Mongols, were stopped at Vienna. The Mongols didn't quite make it to Constantinople, and in the north got partway through Poland, I believe. GP was right about Muslims too: yes, they made it to Spain, but they were halted in their northward march in the Caucasus for a long, long time, in part because of Georgian resistance.

Re:Of course they cut access

[Mondor]

Nope. Mongolian-Tatar army was stopped in 1242 by duke of Austria and Bohemian King. They were no turks. And before that, they burned Poland, Lithuania, South Russia, Caucasus including Georgia...

Turks are the nation close to Georgia and Iraq. Tatars are nation of Tatarstan in Russia. Mongolians... Well, the nation of Mongolia. In 1242, it was the army of Batiy, the leader of Tatar army.

Re:Of course they cut access

[jambox]

I think I read it in the Telegraph on Saturday, but I can't find a source now!

Re:Of course they cut access

[rtb61]

So your only valid arguments are insults, let me guess which side of politics your from ;D.

Re:Of course they cut access

[sumdumass]

Only valid argument? against what? You said nothing of substance besides this is all Bush's fault then went on a tirade against "NEOcons" whatever in the hell that is supposed to mean.

Perhaps I should take the modern bullshit detector and simply say "Cite please" or nothing you is valid. Instead, I said your full of shit and have no proof. If you do, you would list it instead of attempting to turn this into "which side of politics your from". The bottom line was that you made some pretty strong accusations that you simply cannot or will not back up and I believe is if because they only exist in your mind. A devotion to a political party or movement doesn't make something right or wrong, even when your delusional enough to ignore the American left's position over the last few decades. You need to back up your rhetoric with some real live facts which you failed to do.

Re:Of course they cut access

[rtb61]

;D.

The Spark

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a bad feeling that this conflict is going to spread, catalyzing all the violence that has been the undercurrent of world politics in the past few years. A possible world war.

Re:The Spark

[Guppy06]

"I have a bad feeling that this conflict is going to spread,"

You're young. People always get a little jittery when an invasion happens somewhere and they're not the ones behind it. Now you know how the rest of the world feels.

"catalyzing all the violence that has been the undercurrent of world politics in the past few years."

Except that, if you turn off the television from time to time, you'd see that things are still rather peaceful compared to recent history.

"A possible world war."

It's difficult to have a world war without two large international factions aligned against each other. It'd be difficult (to say the least) to determine common enemies in the smattering of brushfire regional wars we're seeing.

Heck, what we're seeing in Georgia right now stands out because it's just so damned old skool: using a fifth column to destabilize a neighbor to soften them up for some good ol' fashioned land-grabbing. You gotta give credit to Putin, he knows his stuff.

Re:The Spark

[Anonymous Coward]

The West is unquestionably aligned against Russia in this matter. They just don't care enough to actually do something about it.

Re:The Spark

[rve]

In 1991, when Georgia seceeded from the soviet union, a civil war followed in which these two provinces separated themselves from Georgia.

Historically, when a province or state seceeded from another country, there has rarely been unanimous agreement as to exactly where the new border should be. Take as an example a certain secession attempt in the western hemisphere in 1861.

Quite often the province borders aren't drawn along ethnic lines, sometimes they're even completely arbitrary. For example the borders between Croatia and Serbia and Bosnia were the one time border between the Austrian and Turkish empires.

In the last two decades, a number of provinces have seceeded from larger eastern european countries, and every time the international community ("the west") was quick to recognize the independence, and the new borders exactly as the breakaway province claimed them, disregarding any claim by the other side as imperialism.

The war in Bosnia for example was a result, as a large chunk of the new country felt more Serbian than Bosnian, and attempted to break away from Bosnia by military means.

More such conflicts (and probably wars) are almost certain, as about 15 million Russians live in former Soviet republics (up to 30% of the population in some), many of whom presumably would prefer to be part of Russia.

The same situation took place in the countries of the present EU as nation states took form in the 19th century, which was followed by about 100 years of terrible wars, and ultimately settled by ethnic cleansing and assimilation politics on a massive scale. (15 million ethnic Germans were deported from central and eastern Europe after WW2, for example, forever ending any German territorial claims)

Re:The Spark

[eltaco]

if you actually want to know (spoilers ahead) the credit crunch will be/is the actual spark. who cares about some unimportant region fighting for independence? sure, it's a big deal at dinnertime watching the news- sure, many freedom fighters / terrists will grasp the opportunity, just like they're doing now in China and Iraq. but then I think about the oil & gas Georgia exports and I get Iraq flashbacks. Black Sea pipeline and whatnot.. but still, somehow a global economy crisis is a tad more important, no? I know where I'd put my hyper-inflated money.

Re:The Spark

[niteshifter]

" ... catalyzing all the violence that has been the undercurrent of world politics in the past few millennium."

There, fixed that for you.

Re:The Spark

[Sanakan]

Sorry to disapoint you, but Putin, as a prime minister, would probably not make such decisions. These things are probably done by Dmitry Medvedev now.

Re:The Spark

[passthecrackpipe]

You don't really know how things work between those two, do you? When Putin says "jump", Medvedev asks "how high"

Re:The Spark

[Guppy06]

"In the last two decades, a number of provinces have seceeded from larger eastern european countries, and every time the international community ("the west") was quick to recognize the independence,"

Because more often than not those eastern countries maintained their borders solely by force of arms. Practically since inception, Yugoslavia had been a state dominated by Serbian people and Serbian interests, with the ruling Serbian elite viewing the other nationalities as racially inferior, imposing Serbian language, customs and religion on the rest. The eventual ethnic cleansing campaign initiated by Belgrade in the 1990's as Serbian power over the state waned is a pretty good indication of how Serbians felt about their "fellow" Yugoslavs.

"and the new borders exactly as the breakaway province claimed them, disregarding any claim by the other side as imperialism."

Maybe because the international community you so deride had already seen that kind of Sudetenland bullshit before? How long did the Serbians shell Sarajevo again?

"The war in Bosnia for example was a result, as a large chunk of the new country felt more Serbian than Bosnian, and attempted to break away from Bosnia by military means"

And yet, after the Dayton Accords, Bosnia and Herzegovina still has the same borders. Funny how, after the UN stopped the Belgrade government from pouring in propaganda, men and materiel, the Serbs in B&H discovered that they could live just fine under a new federal arrangement.

"More such conflicts (and probably wars) are almost certain, as about 15 million Russians live in former Soviet republics (up to 30% of the population in some), many of whom presumably would prefer to be part of Russia."

Because it's not possible to be ethnically Russian and not want to be a part of the sacred motherland? There's a whole bunch of ethnic Russians in Brooklyn, does this mean that Moscow would be justified in sending troops to Long Island to "look out for their interests?"

We've seen this over and over again; if the Russian minority is being marginalized, the solution is to reorganize the government to satisfy their legitimate concerns. But "I miss the good ol' days under the tsar and the Soviets when we ran things around here" is not a legitimate concern. A third party, whose interests are hardly neutral, pouring in large helpings of military force into the region, is historically how problems like this are made worse, not ended.

"The same situation took place in the countries of the present EU as nation states took form in the 19th century, which was followed by about 100 years of terrible wars, and ultimately settled by ethnic cleansing and assimilation politics on a massive scale."

But this ignores the centuries of wars and ethnic campaigns that started it all. The Ukrainians never asked to be Russian, the Serbs never asked to be Austrian, and the Greeks never asked to be Ottomans. But in each case, an ethno-imperial power felt they were more than justified to march in, displace the government, marginalize the locals, suppress the local tongue and the like. The solution is obviously not to do more of the same.

"(15 million ethnic Germans were deported from central and eastern Europe after WW2, for example, forever ending any German territorial claims)"

Because Germany's neighbors learned their lesson: having ethnic Germans among you justifies imperialist expansion in Berlin's eyes. After all, nobody even asked the Czech Germans if they wanted to trade Prague for Berlin. And as this example shows, as Moscow pours troops into Georgia, it's only logical that the other countries of the CIS, not just Georgia, will start to see the ethnic Russians among them as a liability and a threat to national security, serving to make conditions for ethnic Russians worse.

Which really goes to show that Tsar Vladimir doesn't really give a damn about the "plight ethnic Russians" to begin with, he just wants to plant the flag. Moscow only tolerates "independence" for the CIS republics so long as they continue to kowtow to Russian interests, but now they're daring to seek protection from Russia in NATO, and we can't have that, can we?

Re:The Spark

[Anonymous Coward]

In the last two decades, a number of provinces have seceeded from larger eastern european countries, and every time the international community ("the west") was quick to recognize the independence, and the new borders exactly as the breakaway province claimed them, disregarding any claim by the other side as imperialism.

not quite accurate, as a matter of fact as far as i can recall the international community only recognized provinces that declared independence within their former (internal) borders and other entities that demanded independence weren't recognized (e.g. the Republic of Herzeg-Bosnia and the Serbian Republic not to be mistaken with the Republic of Serbia)

Re:The Spark

[rve]

Because more often than not those eastern countries maintained their borders solely by force of arms. Practically since inception, Yugoslavia had been a state dominated by Serbian people and Serbian interests, with the ruling Serbian elite viewing the other nationalities as racially inferior, imposing Serbian language, customs and religion on the rest. The eventual ethnic cleansing campaign initiated by Belgrade in the 1990's as Serbian power over the state waned is a pretty good indication of how Serbians felt about their "fellow" Yugoslavs.

Your facts seem to come from a parallel universe...
Tito was a Croat, and under his 40 year rule it was practically forbidden to call oneself Serb. Serbian, Croatian and Bosnian people are of the same race and speak the same language. To an outsider they're completely indistinguishable, and I personally never understood what the fuss was about, but that's up to them, not us. Ethnic cleansing is something all sides are guilty of. All ethnic Serbs have been forcibly removed from Croatia and Kosovo for example.

I just remarked that drawing and recognizing borders with complete disregard for the actual people living there, has always led to trouble in the past. The choices as to whom to support also seem rather arbitrary. Kosovo seceding from Serbia is good, needs to be recognized right away, with the borders as chosen by the seceding party, and backed by military force from a super power, while South Ossetia and Abkhazia seceding from a former Soviet republic is bad, and when it's backed by military force from a super power, it's super bad.

What would happen if Virginia tried to secede, claiming the historic borders of the Virginia colony? What if say, France, were to recognize its independence and borders? I think we'd tell them to mind their own fucking business, send the army to suppress the secession and nuke France if they'd even consider interfering.

And yet, after the Dayton Accords, Bosnia and Herzegovina still has the same borders. Funny how, after the UN stopped the Belgrade government from pouring in propaganda, men and materiel, the Serbs in B&H discovered that they could live just fine under a new federal arrangement.

The country is de facto divided into three ethnically cleansed parts that largely ignore each other today.

Because it's not possible to be ethnically Russian and not want to be a part of the sacred motherland? There's a whole bunch of ethnic Russians in Brooklyn, does this mean that Moscow would be justified in sending troops to Long Island to "look out for their interests?"

An American with a Russian surname living in Brooklyn isn't an ethnic Russian but an American. It's completely incomparable. The difference between feeling Irish or Italian is not remotely like the difference between feeling Irish- or Italian-American.

A third party, whose interests are hardly neutral, pouring in large helpings of military force into the region, is historically how problems like this are made worse, not ended.

Except in Bosnia, where a third party whose interests were hardly neutral poured in large helpings of military force, and ended the conflict?

But this ignores the centuries of wars and ethnic campaigns that started it all. The Ukrainians never asked to be Russian, the Serbs never asked to be Austrian, and the Greeks never asked to be Ottomans. But in each case, an ethno-imperial power felt they were more than justified to march in, displace the government, marginalize the locals, suppress the local tongue and the like.

Are you now supporting my argument that perhaps when foreign powers decide for other peoples where their borders ought to be, and that the city of their ancestors should now switch from being Polish to being Russian (replace with any two other nations where applicable) is bound to lead to less than amicable

Re:The Spark

[shutdown -p now]

In 1991, when Georgia seceeded from the soviet union, a civil war followed in which these two provinces separated themselves from Georgia. Historically, when a province or state seceeded from another country, there has rarely been unanimous agreement as to exactly where the new border should be.

While true, it hardly applies to this particular case. Russia has originally acquired Ossetia together with Georgia; it only makes sense that Georgia has declared independence within its historical borders. Then again, Ossetians have been living there for all that time, too, so their claim also has some basis.

Re:The Spark

[rve]

But which historic borders? Every sufficiently old country has had different borders at different periods.

The country of my own ethnicity has been much larger than it is now, much smaller than it is now, a province of another country, dominion of yet another country independent again, and not always in exactly the same location.

Re:The Spark

[tehcyder]

I have a bad feeling that this conflict is going to spread, catalyzing all the violence that has been the undercurrent of world politics in the past few years. A possible world war.

Georgia isn't in NATO, so they're on their own. Obviously Russia knew this before they made their, er, humanitarian intervention. So unless China decides to suddenly get pro-Georgian, it's unlikely there'll be a world war.

Re:The Spark

[Mondor]

5th column, in this case, is about 100% of the population of two regions. Although, of course, allowing them to have Russian citizenship, was exactly the way to make them even more loyal.

However, this also gave them freedom of movement, including the freedom of moving out of that region to either Europe or Asia. Georgia didn't give them even that.

Re:The Spark

[Mondor]

You forgot to add "IMHO".

Re:The Spark

[Anonymous Coward]

"having ethnic Germans among you justifies imperialist expansion in Berlin's eyes."

Is that an excuse for the worst ethnic cleansing in the history of mankind?

Twitter | Google language tools

[ka9dgx]

I don't know Russian... but I do know Google... so here's a bit of a mashup:
Twitter | Google Translate
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Ftwitter.com%2Fwardirect&hl=en&ie=UTF8&sl=ru&tl=en

Re:Twitter | Google language tools

[c0sine]

Well, I happen to know Russian fluently and I'd say that most of these translations are baloney... About 80% of those make no sense at all compare to the original text. So, relax - it just doesn't work :-)

Wait a second...?

[areusche]

This sounds oddly similar to Splintercell 1. Maybe Nicholadze is real and Sam is actively working to stop this menace!

Re:Wait a second...?

[lord_sarpedon]

I was playing Chaos Theory earlier today.

It's probably those damn masse kernels. This probably started in South Korea.

I don't blame you.

[gcnaddict]

That's what happened the last time.

--points at World War I

Re:I don't blame you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, WWI wasn't the "last" world war.

Re:I don't blame you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Uh, WWI wasn't the "last" world war.

It wasn't? Then why don't you tell us what was, Professor History. And while you're at it, why don't you explain how your precious history is going to help us if we're headed towards global conflict?!

Re:I don't blame you.

[whong09]

It seems unlikely. The political landscape doesn't look like what it did pre-WWI europe. For one thing, there totally isn't the whole tanglement of alliances that escalated the conflict. I think such a war would be impossible for another fundamental reason. Communications technology has shrunk the world to the point where it is inconceivable to allow that sort of thing to happen. Instantaneous foreign criticism would likely stop the violence from escalating, and global organizations like the UN would attempt to stop the fight (UN =/= league of nations in terms of uselessness, before anyone says anything). Besides, there's no sign of foreign involvement as of now so it seems highly unlikely that this will be little more than a burp.

Re:I don't blame you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Those who don't learn from history... can't pass tenth grade.

Re:I don't blame you.

[Anonymous Coward]

Parent poster is clearly not American.

Re:I don't blame you.

[nusuth]

All international organizations exists because governments support them. If a government decide to go to a war, manipulating its own population is necessary and sufficient condition to do so. International power structures which could stop them do not really exist.

A WW is unlikely for a simple reason: nukes. There won't be a world war simply because it won't have a winner (at least not one among fighters.)

Re:I don't blame you.

[32771]

Nukes won't prevent war.

If you want to achieve a goal other than total annihilation of an opponent (glass parking lot) you leave open the possibility of a conventional war or limited nuclear war. Especially geographical closeness could enforce a conventional war.

Notice that in the second world war Germany didn't use Chemical weapons because it didn't want to bring them into the game for fear of retaliation and reduced usefulness. The same thing might apply in future conflicts, you can't nuke the territory you want to occupy.

Just face it, in the end even bad guys want to live.

Also notice that we might find attacking states like North Korea or Iran unpleasant right now because our highly developed (I have no better words) societies have too much to loose from a couple of stray nukes or terror attacks. But just imagine we were more like China or Russia, whole new possibilities for engagement with erratic neighbors would emerge.

The Redcross

[ed__]

Times like these are when the red cross is most appreciated. They will likely soon be flying in C-130's full of porn and lol-cats jpegs. 'Round the clock flights will continue until the Georgian internet connections can be restored.

(additionally, the traceroutes could also fail because the routers and computers have been exploded by the russians with bombs from airplanes. this would be a worrying escalation of cyberwarfare).

Re:The Redcross

[Bane1998]

Times like these are when the red cross is most appreciated. They will likely soon be flying in C-130's full of porn and lol-cats jpegs. 'Round the clock flights will continue until the Georgian internet connections can be restored.

(additionally, the traceroutes could also fail because the routers and computers have been exploded by the russians with bombs from airplanes. this would be a worrying escalation of cyberwarfare).

IT folk as military targets... now that's something.

Re:The Redcross

[Anonymous Coward]

You do realize that the only reason violence subsided in Iraq was that the sustained lolcatting caused serious brain injuries to the Iraqi militias? Al-Sadr hasn't formed a peaceful wing as much as he has formed a counter-lolcat division of lolgoggie posters.

How about a much simpler explanation?

[jdoeii]

Georgia is a small republic with very little traffic to web resources under normal conditions. Now they are getting likely several orders of magnitude more traffic. And these are the consequences. But of course the "cyberwarfare" is much juicier piece for journalists to chew on.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[flyingsquid]

Georgia is a small republic with very little traffic to web resources under normal conditions. Now they are getting likely several orders of magnitude more traffic. And these are the consequences. But of course the "cyberwarfare" is much juicier piece for journalists to chew on.

Please read the news once in a while. Russia has launched cyberattacks on smaller neighbors before, most notably Estonia. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberattacks_on_Estonia_2007

By all accounts, Russia and Georgia are both to blame for what's going on here. But if you look at the pattern of behavior in the past few years... well, we've seen Russian dissidents poisoned with radioactive sushi, Russian journalists assassinated, an opposition leader in the Ukraine poisoned with dioxin... Jesus H. Christ, wake up and smell the coffee already. Maybe we don't think we're in the next phase of the Cold War, but Putin pretty clearly does, and he's acting accordingly.

America has enough enemies in the world that we don't need to make another one out of Russia. And as an American, I don't see any real reason that the United States and Russia can't be allies, rather than enemies. But that doesn't matter; Putin quite clearly thinks otherwise, and that is the only thing that matters. Russia sees the West as a threat, and they are treating us (and the Western-allied Georgia) accordingly. This is not just Russia vs. Georgia, this is Russia vs. Georgia + EU + USA. And the question is, what are the EU and the USA going to do about it? The last thing the United States needs is more conflict and war, of course. But appeasing tyrants is generally not a good move, either.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[hav0x]

Russia and the USA do have conflicting economic interests. But going as far as saying that Putin views the US as a threat. Certainly not as a military threat, and the Russian economy is looking good.

I would also not be so quick in bundling the EU in with whatever the US does. You'd be surprised (not) at what most people in Europe think about the recent warmongering. The US isn't/hasn't been making many friends over here. Protip: Georgia ... srsly isn't even on the map.I know we have an oil pipe there and that's it.

As for Georgia ... dumb. ass. move.

Got your panties in a twist, and your ass handed to you by the russians, for a handfull of sheep herders who don't want to be governed by you? Really?
You had to attack a bunch of sheep herders with russian passports? Really?
Started a serious fight with the russians as you're about to join NATO? REALLY?

2000 dead count and people stress over not being able to resolve government.gov.ge. Interesting.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[Anonymous Coward]

It's people like you and Putin that make wars. The real question is what are YOU going to do about that?

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[antirelic]

I wonder if Georgia made this move without informing the US first. Not that Georgia needs to receive the USA's consent before doing anything, but lets face it, Georgia is heavily relying on the United States influence should the conflict go south (and it is). This is one of those moments where Russia is testing the international community, and flexing its military muscle against an small nation that wants badly to join NATO. Luckily for Russia Georgia has not been given better access to NATO equipment (especially anti-air capabilities and air assets) or this conflict would be like the 08 Patriots vs 08 Giants... :-D (NYG FTW!!!)

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[Anonymous Coward]

But if you look at the pattern of behavior in the past few years... well, we've seen Russian dissidents poisoned with radioactive sushi, Russian journalists assassinated, an opposition leader in the Ukraine poisoned with dioxin... Jesus H. Christ, wake up and smell the coffee already.

Maybe you'd like to read this .PDF report on human rights abuses in Georgia.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Russia has launched cyberattacks on smaller neighbors before, most notably Estonia. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberattacks_on_Estonia_2007

The parent modded as insightful?

from that very same wikipedia page:

and neither NATO nor European Commission experts were able to find any proof of official Russian government participation

and the only convicted person lives in Estonia.

So if author wants to participate in FUD, he has at least read through the sources he is pointing to.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[Yvanhoe]

After the whole "OMG Iran is DISCONNECTED! War is nigh !" mess a few months ago, I'm waiting for more than a few failed pings and traceroute before acknowledging for cyber-warfare. A lot of mess can be caused by large-scale power disruption and people (especially governmental admins) moving from places to places with a big part of their infrastructure.

Maybe I am showinf an arrogant bias but, is the IT infrastructure of Georgia redundant enough to resist a real-world conflict ?

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[musicmaster]

With hundreds of US military "advisors" in Georgia the US very probably was informed before of the Georgian attacks. And they are probably now working as advisors behind the screens - providing data from the satellites. This looks very similar to Operation Storm in which the Croat army crushed the Serbs in the Krajna in 1995. Then too US advisors played a major role on the background. Even the lack of respect for Ossetian lives reminds of the lack of respect for Serb lives in the Krajna. Maybe somebody can check which "advisors" that were then in Croatia are now in Georgia.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Incorrect, everyone now knows that the cyberattacks on Estonia were perpertrated by an angst-ridden youth who wanted to see the restoration of soviet union era communism. He was angry that they were moving a soviet-era statue of a communist soldier from the main city's square to a less visible area.

To summarize, Russia didn't do it.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[demachina]

"But appeasing tyrants is generally not a good move, either."

The problem the U.S. has here is much of the world thinks Bush is a tyrant. Because he invaded Iraq under false pretenses, and condoned torturing people he doesn't really have any moral high ground to stand on at this point. I recall when Bush and the U.S. started lecturing Putin about issues with elections in Russia he shot back that the elections in the U.S., after irregularities in Florida, Georgia, Ohio and Alabama, weren't anything to be bragging about.

From reading the online newspapers today it appears the Georgians are more than a little unhappy that the U.S. and NATO are apparently going to let Russia swallow Georgia whole if they feel like. Has Bush even managed to tear himself away from the Olympics yet? Putin rushed back from the Olympics to the border with Georgia and is apparently hands on commanding the invasion. I'm guessing this is going to be another round of George being asleep at the switch, and caught with his pants down during a crisis, while one of his most faithful friends and allies is destroyed. Of course there is a question what he could do about it if he wanted to. The U.S. military is stretched so thin, that other than air power and nuclear threats, there is nothing he could do to stop this invasion.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[sumdumass]

Georgia ... srsly isn't even on the map.I know we have an oil pipe there and that's it.

I know the point your attempting to make but seriously, two world wars were fought all over Europe specifically because of attitudes like that. For some reasons, and probably admirable ones, the EU got involved in Serbia and the former Yugoslavia and needed the US presence to seal the deal. But ignoring this will only involve neighboring countries who can't feel safe right now which will cause more instability. Hitler and one of his generals both stated that is France or anyone would have done something when they moved military troops and armorments into the Rhineland which was forbidden by the WWI armistice, Germany could have never have built a war machine and WWII would never have happened.

I'm not saying this will cause a world war or anything. But I'm saying that I would think that Europe has already learned this lesson several times over. Perhaps I'm wrong and this new age enlightenment will allow things to play out without involving them. Maybe if they close their eyes a little more or something. I have already seen people blame it on the US which makes letting people die more appeasing or appealing to them.

Re:How about a much simpler explanation?

[Anonymous Coward]

Please read the news once in a while. Russia has launched cyberattacks on smaller neighbors before, most notably Estonia. See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyberattacks_on_Estonia_2007

And you shouldn't believe everything you read on wikipedia. It was shown afterwards that most of the damage was actually done by some russian teenagers with too much time on their hands. This discussion is silly anyway. They're bombing Georgia, are we really to be surprised they're also targeting its telecommunications infrastructure?

No shit!

[Guppy06]

"In what seems to be a repeat of what happened in July, a few news sites have mentioned that there is evidence of a campaign against Georgia."

A campaign against Georgia? You don't say! What tipped you off, the explosions? The Black Sea Fleet moving off the coast? The miles-long military convoys crossing into Georgian territory? The planes dropping bombs in populations centers?

Oh, the IP logs. Can't have a real war until Netcraft confirms it, I s'pose.

Re:No shit!

[OctaviusIII]

Sorry, what? There's a war? I was just watching CNN and all they had on was John Edward's affair... no, wait, I think there's something in the news crawl... "Russia invades Georgia/Governor recalls National Guard/Declares 'I had no idea!'"

Huh, go figure.

Re:No shit!

[cryptodan]

No that means that Command and Conquer 4 has been released with real-life looking graphics. Russia vs Georgia.

Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Everyone is making fun of the invasion of a democratic country?

Thats slashdot for ya i guess. Depends on which country does the invading.

Re:Great Jokes

[DaveAtFraud]

Everyone is making fun of the invasion of a democratic country?

Thats slashdot for ya i guess. Depends on which country does the invading.

Nah. But just see how many people here get upset if you cut off their access to pirated pr0n, movies and tunes or even threaten the possibility.

Cheers,
Dave

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

true, but at least nobody's broken out the 'In mother Russia' jokes yet...

Re:Great Jokes

[Just because I'm an]

I'm in this purely for the pedantry so brushing the horror of war aside... ahem... may I ask why you used the word "democratic" here?

I would have assumed, perhaps falsely, that the invasion of any soverign country by another, whether monarchy, dictatorship, oligarchy or whatever else is inherently wrong.

One can try to justify it, of course, by saying magic words like "WMD", or "they did it first, we're just retaliating", "they're evil, we're good", "if we don't kill a few of them now many more will die later"... really the options are endless. Sometimes perhaps even justified.

Basically I'm wondering whether you believe it's OK to make fun of invasions of non-democratic countries?

While I'm bothering to post. How democratic is democratic enough... would Zimbabwe qualify for example? Technically Robert Mugabe was democratically elected. The whole beating people to death if they planned to vote for Morgan Changarai (sp?) taints the process but really it's about where the line is. Finding people willing to say that the opposition leader is homosexual (Anwar Ibrahim of Malaysia.. twice!) is a less physical approach but potentially equally damaging to the democratic process.

Of course if true you could argue it is of benefit to the public to be familiar with all the facts... no doubt this is why many governments are loosening the freedom of information rules about sitting members. No wait... the other thing...

How long before this method is applied in political campaigns, if it isn't already, in the western world.

I'm going to get modded offtopic aren't I?...

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Let us not forget about a bigger bully invading a sovereign nation and murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians.

Re:Great Jokes

[binarylarry]

In soviet russia, democratic country attacks YOU!

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, those "innocent civilians" murdered each other, for the most part. American troops were a minor annoyance to Iraqis killing other Iraqis.

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

So true it's almost not funny.

Almost.

Re:Great Jokes

[Vexorian]

Is democracy supposed to prevent a country from being invaded?

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

If it's democratic, how come the current leader deposed the last leader in a coup? Doesn't sound that democratic to me.

Re:Great Jokes

[lord_sarpedon]

Everyone is making fun of the invasion of a democratic^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H country?

Fixed.

Let's not that pretend form of government in any way dictates quality.

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

Dupe. I played the game by Tom Clancy many years ago.

Re:Great Jokes

[khallow]

Ok, so we're reminded. How does that apply to the current situation? You seem to be implying that the US invaded a democratic country (I don't recall if it's done so in the past century), not merely a sovereign one. And which sovereign country, that the US has invaded, is getting you all worked up?

Re:Great Jokes

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia, Georgia invades you.

Re:Great Jokes

[cryptodan]

In mother Russia the internet cuts you.

Re:Great Jokes

[shutdown -p now]

Everyone is making fun of the invasion of a democratic country?

Do you mean Georgia, or South Ossetia? Because both have democratically elected leaders and parliaments.

Organized crime

[gmuslera]

So they claim that the RBN was doing russian government will? That is (government's) organized crime, Discworld version.

Is not the same to have a group of people that believing government sponsorized news decide by their own to cyber-attack a country, to being hired by or belong to the government to do that.

Re:Organized crime

[kaos07]

What's the difference between the government and the Mafia?

One of them is organised.

Re:Organized crime

[jsfs]

That is the question, isn't it? Whether or not the hackers got special advance notice of the attack, and whether or not their government "encouraged" them to hack another country's infrastructure. Given that the attack on the servers happened before the physical attack - and before anyone would have good occasion to look up Georgian sites in particular, not to mention hack them - it doesn't look especially good for Russia's plausible deniability.

Welcome to the New G-Mail, Tavarisch

[TheModelEskimo]

Dude, when the Georgian President realizes that he can't retrieve all of his data from the Google cloud, he's going to be so P.O.'d.

This is nothing...

[Anonymous Coward]

You should've seen Slashdot at the start of the war of northern aggression back in 1861.

Re:This is nothing...

[Jeremy Erwin]

shouldn't that be "War of the Rebellion?" After all, slashdot was founded in Michigan.

about conflict between Russia and Georgia

[Anonymous Coward]

Putin: I have Georgia on my mind.......

In Soviet Russia...

[mpthompson]

Oh nevermind...

Re:The real problem is ....

[Atlantis-Rising]

...where would you put a screen door on an M1A1?

Go Georgia!

[mi]

Time to root for the little country trying to get its own territory back under its own control.

Puting's claims of "genocide" are pathetic and would only work on the already brainwashed Russians themselves. Seeing these assholes trumpet their government's lies is just as scary as seeing Chinese bloggers' anti-Tibet postings.

They are trying to paint South Osetia as some sort of Kosovo, where the evil Georgians deserve to be punished the same way Serbians did. Except, unlike then, there is no genocide or "ethnic cleansing" (Saakashvili is much smart than that), and no country was giving Kosovars their citizenship left and right so as to be able to pretend, they are defending their own citizens. Lots and lots of South Osetian have gotten Russian citizenship in recent years — just for asking. Imagine, for just a second, America trying to annex Iraq this way — we would not even force Puerto Rico in!

If US is not careful, next year Russia will come up with a "good" claim to send tanks to Brighton Beach — plenty of Russian citizens there!..

Re:Go Georgia!

[velen]

The territory claimed independence back in 1991. Kinda late to stake claim to it again, don't you think?

Re:Go Georgia!

[clarkkent09]

Actually, the closest thing to genocide in Kosovo occurred after NATO moved in and the Serbs were ethnically cleansed from most of it. What happened before that was actually very similar to what's happening in South Ossetia, a minority in a defined territory seeking independence and resorting to military means to achieve it with the help of a foreign power. Just replace Russia with USA and the parallels are very clear. As we now know, the atrocities of the Serbs in crushing that rebellion were much exaggerated by the western media and as the UN court recently acknowledged there was no genocide or ethnic cleansing involved. Actually the percentage of Albanians in Kosovo killed during all the years of Milosevic rule was smaller than the percentage of South Ossetians killed in just couple of days of Georgian attack.

Note: not saying that what happened in Kosovo was all right by any means, my point is that the parallels between the two situations are entirely justified and they expose hypocrisy by the west. There is hypocrisy in the Russian position as well but at least they pay a lip service to preservation of territorial integrity (as per international law) in both cases.

Re:Go Georgia!

[whong09]

What is this, Red Scare v2.0?

Re:Go Georgia!

[hjrnunes]

Yeah well the Bear is making it's move. And while everybody is busy with olympics - and more - in China, Russia keeps pulling it's strings. My guess is we're soon to have another power to rise. And it's not China. It's Russia. Again. The big bear is waking up back from it's recovery sleep. Only this time it isn't red. It's grey. Adapted to modern politics, armed with all kinds of democracy, genocide and freedom vocabularies. And no one can do nothing about it... They are playing it by our rules. And that's something the West should worry about... A corrupt, capitalist, democratic Russia...

Re:Go Georgia!

[cyrill_grk]

If we have to - we will obviously send! I just wonder - destroying Iraque was a _normal_ behaviour of USA. You're idiot... sorry for this word :(

Re:Go Georgia!

[Vexorian]

Yeah, I mean no big power should ever invade a little country. Oh , unless we are the big country and are chasing a terrorist, even though we wouldn't even find the terrorist there...

Re:Go Georgia!

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry, but WHY bombing Serbia to "protect" "innocent" albanians in Kosowo is "right", and trying to protect osetinian people is wrong? Pay attention, that S.Osetia had "de facto" independence from 1992, and until Georgians got US weapons and training they have not tried to attack it. Kosowo had not any indepence. Or, why "liberating" Kosowo is "good" and deliberating Serbska Kraina (Serbian republic in Kroatia) is good too?

Oh, of course there is Afganistan and Iraq. Why Soviet Union got "Evil empire" tag for invading Afganistan, and US leaded mission in same place is "giving freedom to Afgan people"?

When I read articles on bbc.co.uk about "Russian invasion" I read a lot about refugees, but why they dont write that these are Osetian people who flee from Georgian soldiers? Making impression, that they flee from peacekeepers.

Re:Go Georgia!

[c0sine]

What own territory? Osetia is de-facto independent country since 1992. You are afraid of next year Russian ride? Well, let's see what US was doing in Georgia since 2002: military training and aid, CIA presence, etc. Any comments on that, Mr. So-Smart-Man?

Re:Go Georgia!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod parent down. A quick search of wikipedia shows a few relavent articles on this. In a nutshell Georgia declared a ceasefire and then pulled a surprise attack. They killed 15 russian peace keepers in the process. This territory declared independence in 1991. Since then Georgia has been trying to attack them into submission. Why your post would be modded up is beyond me.

Re:Go Georgia!

[blind biker]

I concur, wholeheartedly.

Re:Go Georgia!

[scuba0]

Nice knowing you can always go for some Russia bashing. Cannot be easy looking in only one direction. I wonder who's better, you or the old Soviet you are speaking of?

If you have argument, spill it, otherwise FUD and propaganda because you believe something is not a way to get listened on or get any respect.

Re:Go Georgia!

[Plutonite]

What? Do you have any idea how many moslem women were systematically gang raped by serbian forces over the course of their captivity? Have you not seen pictures of the mass graves of their husbands? Do you really think NATO went to war for ideals like the ones coming from Putin?

And like others have stated, just because there is no "good guy" in this conflict doesn't mean we cannot put correct labels on the respective atrocities being committed by either side. Georgia bombed and killed 1500 civilians in their sleep. There is nothing at all you can say about anybody else's actions that will make this look better.

I hate the Russian government, especially that animal Putin, and I also hate the seemingly fashionable play-down of genocide on the internet.

Re:Go Georgia!

[Anonymous Coward]

NATOs claims of "geonicde" were also just made up to aid their war propaganda

Re:Go Georgia!

[mi]

Just replace Russia with USA and the parallels are very clear.

No — and I tried to forestall this argument, that Putin has put into your head. Unlike Russia, US was not justifying its actions by giving Kosovars citizenship. That's was a difference in method. The goal is different too — unlike Russia, US did not gain — nor planned to gain — any territory. If you are still seeing parallels, you need to remove those glasses, that Russian propaganda gave to you — the "parallels" must be painted on their insides.

the atrocities of the Serbs in crushing that rebellion were much exaggerated by the western media

Serbian forces had a truly nasty record by then...

[...] percentage of South Ossetians killed in just couple of days of Georgian attack.

According to whom? To the Russians? Ha-ha!.. Suuu-re... That's an unbiased source.

but at least they pay a lip service to preservation of territorial integrity (as per international law) in both cases.

No, they don't — not any more:

"The actions of the Georgian powers in South Ossetia are, of course, a crime -- first of all against their own people," Putin said. "The territorial integrity of Georgia has suffered a fatal blow."

Right there you go — an attempt to gain territory of a fellow UN member via military force...

Re:Go Georgia!

[drinkypoo]

Genocide is only genocide when you have, you know, genocide. Otherwise at worst it's attempted genocide. Murder is bad no matter what you call it, but there's times when a label is appropriate and times when it isn't. Even using the word genocide is similar to invoking Hitler - it may be warranted, but it is polarizing. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but you should be correct. Killing 1500 civilians isn't genocide unless you're destroying an entire people outright - it's enough to call it an atrocity.

P.S. Gang Rape is SOP in military conflict, as is non-gang rape. American soldiers have done it pretty much everywhere we have gone. Why not everyone else? Nothing excuses it, but don't act like it is unusual. It is simply one more reason to condemn all war.

Re:Go Georgia!

[drinkypoo]

Genocide is only genocide when you have, you know, genocide. Otherwise at worst it's attempted genocide. Murder is bad no matter what you call it, but there's times when a label is appropriate and times when it isn't. Even using the word genocide is similar to invoking Hitler - it may be warranted, but it is polarizing. That doesn't mean you shouldn't do it, but you should be correct. Killing 1500 civilians isn't genocide unless you're destroying an entire people outright - it's enough to call it an atrocity.
P.S. Gang Rape is SOP in military conflict, as is non-gang rape. American soldiers have done it pretty much everywhere we have gone. Why not everyone else? Nothing excuses it, but don't act like it is unusual. It is simply one more reason to condemn all war.

Re:Go Georgia!

[shutdown -p now]

Actually, the situation in South Ossetia is much closer to that of Chechnya - unlike Kosovo, which remained largely under Serbian control until NATO intervention, South Ossetia was de-facto independent for more than 15 years now, but Georgia has decided that it now has strength and determination enough to regain the lost territory.

Regarding genocide during the conflict there in early 90s - it is pretty well-documented, but all sides involved in it typically forget to mention that it was two-sided, with both sides performing ethnic cleansings when they had the chance (as it usually is during ethnic conflicts). Before the 90s war, South Ossetia actually had significant Georgian minority, mostly concentrated in large cities (similar to how it was in Kosovo with Serbs). During the war, forces on both sides expelled and/or murdered population of the hostile ethnic group when they happened to control a village/town where any such could be found. After the war, Georgians "cleaned up" those regions of Ossetia they still controled, while Ossetians expelled any remaining Georgians from their territory; arguably, since Ossetians ended up controlling most of the province's territory, the scale of ethnic cleansing was larger on their side, but not significantly so. So, both sides do have valid grudges against each other.

With respect to the Russian peacekeepers in Ossetia - they do indeed have a UN mandate to enforce peace in the region, but their impartiality is seriously compromised by Russian support for Ossetians during the previous war (supplying with weapons isn't even seriously disputed, unofficial direct involvement of Russian armed forces is denied but widely accepted and applauded in Russia in practice), and by the ongoing feuds with Georgia over different matters. Russian forces most certainly did overstep the mandate by bringing in reinforcements and doing retaliatory bombing strikes on Georgia proper - though insofar as no land invasion has taken place, and the strikes seem to be directed primarily against military or potentially military targets, such as bases and airstrips, this part is actually quite similar to what NATO did in Kosovo/Serbia. Then again, the Kosovo operation was undoubtully an invasion of a sovereign country, and so is this - no matter what the de-facto status of South Ossetia is, it is still internationally recognized as Georgian territory, and Russian forces crossing its border does constitute an invasion, which is a valid casus belli, and can be considered a crime against peace as well (but that didn't bother anyone during the Kosovo War, eh?).

Pesonally, as a Russian citizen, I don't understand why my country should get involved in any way. They say that we're "defending Russian citizens" - yeah, right, after they were giving Russian citizenship to all Ossetians (and Abkhazians) left and right shortly after the 90s civil war with no strings attached - and for what purpose, exactly? At the very least, if we do decide to get involved for humanitarian reasons, we'd better clear our very similar mess in Chechnya first. They say Georgians shelled Tshinvali for 2 days, "ruining the city" - well, guess what, Russian forces have shelled and bombed Grozny for months during the Second Chechen war (October 1999 to January 2000), and if you want to actually see what a levelled city looks like - look at the pics of Grozny from that period; Tshinvali shelling is a walk in the park in comparison. Meanwhile, Russian state-owned TV has the audacity to compare Tshinvali to the siege of Sarajevo! (For comparison, the latter lasted for several years, with an average of 400 shell impacts daily during the active phase of it in 1992-1993; total number of fatalities is 12000, 85% of which were civilians).

P.S. To all my compatriots who want to say that I'm a USA/NATO shill, here's a reply in advance - yes, I'm on the payroll of Western imperialist aggressors, I personally report to Bush daily, and I get my paycheck from NSA, MI6, and Mossad every month. Now just go and masturbate at Putin's portrait, will you.

Re:Go Georgia!

[clarkkent09]

The goal is different too -- unlike Russia, US did not gain -- nor planned to gain -- any territory.

Lookup Camp Bondsteel, a huge permanent US military base in Kosovo. Also lookup Rambouillet "negotiations" which preceded NATO bombing of Serbia where the demands included a right for NATO to unrestricted access to Serbian territory. I would say that is a plan to gain territory, or at least presence on the ground in the strategically important Balkans.

On the other hand, if you think Russia is going to war with Georgia in order to increase it's territory by 0.001% you are very naive. The issue is again control of a strategic region and justifying its military presence there by a pretext of "protecting" a small and otherwise helpless minority. Again a strong correlation between Ossertians and Kosovars

Re:Go Georgia!

[clarkkent09]

Yes of course there were rapes and unlawful killings, after all dozens of Serbian soldiers and officers are in jail in Serbia itself for those atrocities, and more are at the international "court" in Hague. However, genocide is something different, "deliberate and systematic destruction, in whole or in part, of an ethnic, racial, religious, or national group". The total death toll in Kosovo during many years that Serbian army had complete control of it was something in the region of 5000. This is in a population of some 2 million, and it includes combat deaths on both sides as well as civilian deaths on both sides. Don't you think they would have managed to kill more if genocide was their goal? To call that genocide is to cheapen the meaning of the word and to still fall for the western wartime propaganda at the time.

By the way "systematic" rape myth in both Kosovo and Bosnia is just that a myth, which was a useful propaganda tool at the time but nothing more. Rapes happen in any war but there is no evidence that any more rapes occurred during those two conflicts than any other comparable conflicts, and there were similar proportion of rapes committed by all sides, not just Serbs.

Re:Go Georgia!

[clarkkent09]

Then again, the Kosovo operation was undoubtedly an invasion of a sovereign country, and so is this - no matter what the de-facto status of South Ossetia is, it is still internationally recognized as Georgian territory,

Well, a cynic might say that following the Kosovo invasion and subsequent recognition by about 40 (mostly NATO) countries, the whole concept of inviolability of sovereign nation's borders is up in the air. What is there to stop Russia saying that if they can do it so can we. A case could be made that NATO countries (let's face we are talking about USA here) are systematically engaged in weakening the international law, which brings about a system of might (which they have) is right. Why shouldn't Russia play by the same rules where it suits it?

In any case, the whole discussion of legal or not legal is nonsense. The issue is the fight for the strategic control of Caucasus between Russia and USA and either side will rationalize using any combination of words such as humanitarian intervention, sovereignty, self-determination, genocide etc etc as it suits it's side.

Re:Go Georgia!

[shutdown -p now]

Well, a cynic might say that following the Kosovo invasion and subsequent recognition by about 40 (mostly NATO) countries, the whole concept of inviolability of sovereign nation's borders is up in the air. What is there to stop Russia saying that if they can do it so can we ... Why shouldn't Russia play by the same rules where it suits it?

While true, Georgia can similarly point fingers at what Russia did just recently in Chechnya, and ask how South Ossetia is any different.

But yes, I agree that any attempts to refer to existing precedents here are pure propaganda. Ideally, this issue should be sorted out in the way that leads to minimum of bloodshed - and to hell with sovereignity, historical claims, geopolitical interests, etc. A real strong multinational UN peace force, return of all refugees (both Ossetian and Georgian, from both the previous conflict and this one), followed by heavily-monitored referendum on independence - and not annexation by Russia - might just do the trick; but I don't hold my breath.

Re:Go Georgia!

[Plutonite]

American soldiers were not exactly acting under orders, and when discovered they were tried and punished. The serbs enslaved women for weeks. And you may be technically correct about the Serbs falling short of the definition, though the people massacred were all of one religious group, making ethnic cleansing a suitable term. I short, I am glad we acted in the Kosovo conflict. Our action stopped the suffering of thousands of people. Something tells me that the government that assassinates journalists and beats dissidents in the streets does not care the same way we do. That is all.

Re:Go Georgia!

[c0sine]

Well, let's see.... Osetia counts for about 70K of total population. Many of them are ethnic Russians. So, do you have any idea what percentage of the whole nation those 1,500 were? What I'm seeing here is pure propaganda: Russia is bad, because it dares to do same things as US is magically allowed to do elsewhere. I thought slash-dotters are smarter than this. Looks like I was mistaken...

Re:Go Georgia!

[carnalforge]

Common, you cant really believe what you're saying.
During Kosovo's war there were around 1,000,000 people mooved from Kosovo to neighbouring Albania and Macedonia. Even being followed and bombed by the Yugoslavian army. Even inside Albanian borders. And i fucking can confirm it, my father happened to have an empty building, and there we gave a way to stay to 39 people from Kosovo. This in Tirana which is far from the border. Tirana those days was full of people from Kosovo as were other cities but i talk for what i know in first person.
After the war ended some of the people that stayed in my father's building asked me and my brother to visit them in their cities in Kosovo. So it happened i went there 1 month after the war. In Prizren, Gjakovà and PrishtinÃ. And i can tell you the smell of corpses was present everywhere. The burnt houses too, the explosive holes on the highways and much more. And everybody i knew there had at least a parent killed.
Now dont come and tell me things were exagerated.
Even just considering that except Macedonia and Montenegro, everybody else in the Former Yugoslavia got his ass kicked from Miloscevic's army (i refuse to think all serbs were ok with that), and who got kicked harder were the Bosnians and Kosovars.
As a side note on Kosovo, it was an autonomy till when Miloshevic came in power (exactly exacerbating the ethnic hate in Kosovo BTW).

Now as for the relationship with Georgia, there are some resemblances or not, i cant say much as i dont have much knowledge on the history in those places. But just judging from the arrogance the Russian government uses i tend to believe more it's just a reaction of the Russians
to Georgia's willing to join NATO.

Re:Go Georgia!

[Anonymous Coward]

> Pay attention, that S.Osetia had "de facto" independence from 1992
Pay attention, that N.Ossetia - ten times the population of S.Ossetia - in Russian federation has no independence at all.

Re:Go Georgia!

[JAlexoi]

Though I blame both sides over there, there is a parallel.
(following statements are NOT to judge, only to outline the reality)

Thing is, this campaign was "planned" to prove a point, that if the west chooses to grant independence to Kosovo, South Osetia should not be overlooked, just because your ally has territorial claims over there.
Mind you there is a history there.
A) Russians were in South Osetia in accordance to international agreements. And prior to this conflict. (NATO GOT an international mandate to invade Kosovo!)
B) The situations are very similar: South Osetia fought for their separation from Georgia, Kosovars fought to separate from Serbia. Resulting in peacekeepers over there. And a lot of (Georgians|Serbs) fled or were forcefully moved from their homes.
C) Say what you will, Georgia did actually send in forces into South Osetia, thus breaking the international agreement.

Kosovars were instigated and supported by Albania, South Osetians by Russia.

Resut?
Ksosovo is recognized as a country... Why? South Osetia is NOT recognized... Why?
See the hypocrisy? That is what Russians are trying to achieve.
On a sidenote, they actually said that when Kosovo got recognized...

Re:Go Georgia!

[mi]

The goal is different too [...]

Thank you very much for (implicitly) accepting my argument regarding the differences in methods.

On the other hand, if you think Russia is going to war with Georgia in order to increase it's territory by 0.001% you are very naive.

Yes, they do — they fought a far bloodier war to keep a much smaller Chechnya within Russia — out of principle. The aim is to get the entire Georgia back into the fold and thus regain a piece of the former USSR, the dissolution of which most Russians continue to sincerely regret. Although only the hot-headed Georgians have given them the justification for an full-blown (pun intended) invasion, Russia is using similar methods and rhetorics to get back other bits and pieces:

• Moldova, where large piece of the country is under Russia's military control much like South Osetia, and where — like in South Osetia and Abkhazia — Russian citizenship can be had just for asking, as it bolsters Russia's claims of "the need to defend Russian citizens".
• Ukraine, where Russia's propaganda constantly pits Russian-minded East against Ukrainian-speaking West, and where they tried to help poison the pro-Western presidential candidate in 2004.
• Armenia and Azerbajdzhan — bitter enemies, both helped by Russia in order to tie them ever closer back to "mother Russia", which appears as a patron to both.
• Baltic republics — these are the only pieces, which broke away from Russia for good, insh'allah. Members of both EU and NATO they will be protected until those organizations wane for some reason. That's where Russia has already lost (for the foreseeable future), but not for lack of trying — the same crap about "protecting Russian citizens" was tried there, as all three little Republics have sizable Russian-speaking populations, who were "cruelly" forced to learn the local languages before getting citizenship.

All of these regions combined represent a small fraction of the former USSR and are dwarfed even by the present Russia's territory. You are right, that Russia don't rationally need the land — their own population is shrinking and they can't develop their own vast lands (watch those ceded to China in a few decades). But the re-establishment of the empire is an appealing concept to almost every Russian, and it the best means for any Russian government to stay in power — far more important than quality of life, for example. This may sound racist and unbelievable, but it is true...

The issue is again control of a strategic region

No. Both US and Russia already had "control of" the respected "strategic regions" — countries of "Warsaw Pact" are largely NATO members now, and Russia's town of Sochi (used to be part of Georgian kingdom, it where the next Winter Olympics are set to happen in Russia, BTW) is only 20 or so miles away from Georgia. So gaining this "control" you are talking about is of no importance to either. And if it were the secret goal of Clinton's bombing of Serbia into submission, he would not have waited to join the fray — NATO's campaing only started after giving the Europeans several years to demonstrate their impotence. It was built in 1999 for short-range forces in support of KFOR — the helicopters and other equipment stationed there can't reach Russia directly — Poland or Bolgaria are much better "launch-pads".

No. The issue is regaining a "breakaway" little country ba

Lithuanian President's Website

[Jophiel04]

Gotta give credit to the Presidents of Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland. They may be small nations, but they talk like they've got a pair...

http://www.president.lt/en/news.full/9475 [Joint Press Release on the Lithuanian President's Webpage]

I know it's not so slashdotty, but it's relevant to the conflict in general and interesting nonetheless.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland -- where have I seen this list before?

Oh, that's right, it's the list of countries that had sucking up to US and taking political potshots at Russia as the cornerstone of their foreign policy since 1991. With such famous successes as celebrating Estonian Nazi volunteers (Estonia, obviously), providing torture camps for their new American friends (Poland), harassing Russians traveling between a small Russian exclave accessible only through their territory and the rest of Russia (Lithuania) and other similarly glorious achievements.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Anonymous Coward]

I guess every day in your life since the collapse of the Soviet Union has been a day that someone pissed in your Wheaties, eh Comrade?

Just keep checking your drops. Maybe there'll be a message from your handler one of these days.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Dramacrat]

The funnyman leader of Georgia chose the perfect time to attempt to shell the hell out of South Ossetia's capital, what with the world's attention being on China ATM, and then immediately after whine mightily about how unfair it was that Russia was 'starting a war' when Russian military and irregular forces rightly came to the defence of the Ossetians.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Anonymous Coward]

1. Russia occupied (occupied is not even the right word since occupation is temporary, but their troops decided to stay) all these countries for almost 50 years. They prefer US for a reason.

2. In 1940-s they had to choose between joining Germany or Russia. If you think anybody knew at that time about Hitler's workings you are dead wrong and by the way - soviets at that time slaughtered far more innocent people than Nazi Germany, but the winners are not judged in a war. So they just chose what seemed lesser of two evils at the time.

3. Torture camps in Poland may or may not be true, but do you know what torture camps are in Russia? Well, I do know. The situation there is much worse, but they are much better at propaganda.

4. So where do you think Russia got this small exclave? Asking nicely or buying it?

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[blind biker]

Thanks a lot for that link. It restores some of my trust in humankind.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

1. Russia occupied (occupied is not even the right word since occupation is temporary, but their troops decided to stay) all these countries for almost 50 years. They prefer US for a reason.

An equivalent of your arguments as applied to US history: "Free Texas!!!"

Every time those three tiny Baltic countries change "ownership" (no matter in what manner and how peacefully) they suddenly discover that their previous "masters" occupied them for decades or centuries. In 50-100 years they will claim that they were duped into being "occupied by EU".

2. In 1940-s they had to choose between joining Germany or Russia. If you think anybody knew at that time about Hitler's workings you are dead wrong and by the way - soviets at that time slaughtered far more innocent people than Nazi Germany, but the winners are not judged in a war. So they just chose what seemed lesser of two evils at the time.

WTF are you talking about? Nazi volunteers in Estonia? They were occupied by Nazi at the very beginning of the war, thus "reversing" the long-decried Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Estonians weren't targeted by Nazi for extermination because of closeness of their ethnic groups. They could choose to sit at home instead of joining Waffen SS. Given the nature of Nazi, SS and especially a position of being a foreign (!) volunteer (!!) in it, that would be a pretty logical choice for any sane human being. Germans themselves see volunteering for Nazi as a dishonorable act now, so I guess, they were better Nazi than Germans. An achievement, indeed.

3. Torture camps in Poland may or may not be true, but do you know what torture camps are in Russia? Well, I do know. The situation there is much worse, but they are much better at propaganda.

If you know so much, why don't you tell me. Again, Poland has a rare distinction of providing torture camps to a foreign power in a feeble attempt of winning favors -- yet another step in a long chain of political whoring.

4. So where do you think Russia got this small exclave? Asking nicely or buying it?

By winning WWII. Haven't you studied any history outside US?

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

I don't think, Soviet Communists were fond of Wheaties in 1991.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Let's not forget where that russian enclave came from hoss; russia is as least as bad as good ol' china in the realm of landgrabs via forcible resettlement..

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[mixuone]

Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland -- where have I seen this list before? Oh, that's right, it's the list of countries that had sucking up to US and taking political potshots at Russia as the cornerstone of their foreign policy since 1991. With such famous successes as celebrating Estonian Nazi volunteers (Estonia, obviously), providing torture camps for their new American friends (Poland), harassing Russians traveling between a small Russian exclave accessible only through their territory and the rest of Russia (Lithuania) and other similarly glorious achievements.

I think you are judging these countries a bit too harshly. What you call "political whoring" in your later post is most likely true, and things like supporting the human rights violations of US agencies or hassling Russian travellers ought to not happen. But really, what are the options for these countries? They have done pretty well for themselves after regaining independence and clearly want to avoid becoming part of Russia's sphere of influence. And they did it by allying with whomever has the military capabilities to oppose the Russians - currently the US and Nazi Germany during WW2. Estonians volunteering with in the Nazis may seem despicable in retrospect and you even argue that:

"They could choose to sit at home instead of joining Waffen SS. Given the nature of Nazi, SS and especially a position of being a foreign (!) volunteer (!!) in it, that would be a pretty logical choice for any sane human being."

but you have to realize that many of those volunteers were not fighting alongside the Nazis was not because they supported the SS ideology. They did it because they needed an ally against Soviet Russia in order to maintain their existence as an independent state, not because they were Nazis. This is part of why the Estonians may celebrate Nazi volunteers - not because they were "better Nazi than Germans" as you said, but because they fought against the Russians (and thus for independence).

Of course this does not mean that we should accept human rights violations from these countries in the present. However, it is unfair to judge these countries from a position of moral supremacy. It is easy to say what one should not do during a time of war when one's own country has the largest army in the world and is separated by the Atlantic from the conflict, but when you are small and geographically neighboring an enourmous country with a history of imperial ambitions, you tend to pick sides.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Estonia? They were occupied by Nazi at the very beginning of the war

Whiskey?
Tango?
Foxtrot?

The war started on September 1st, 1939 with the German attack on Poland and Russians joined on September 17th. Soon afterwards Russians began hostilities against Estonia and fully occupied the country in June of 1940. Germans occupied Estonia in July of 1941 and were greeted as liberators from the soviet terror.

Perhaps in Russia they teach the war started on June 22nd 1942 when Germans broke their alliance with you???

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[shutdown -p now]

Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland -- where have I seen this list before?

Maybe, on the list of countries with strong anti-communist resistance movements during Soviet occupation (Estonian "forest brothers", in particular, held up until mid-70s)?

What followed after they've gained independence is only a logical continuation of that. If Russia keeps behaving as USSR-lite, then it shouldn't really expect any better. And when Russian president is publicly denying Soviet responsibility for the Katyn massacre, and Russian officials saying that Soviet post-WW2 annexation of the Baltic republics was not occupation because it was "voluntarily requested", it's no surprise that Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland are all pissed off. What next, maybe you'll ask the Hungarians to be all grateful for the "brotherly aid" in 1956, or maybe the Czech for the Prague Spring?

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alaska Jack]

Wow... I mean ... wow. Words fail me. You do realize this is absolute and utter crazytalk, right?

"Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania, and Poland -- where have I seen this list before?"

I'm guessing on the list of countries invaded and occupied for a half-century by the oppressive Stalinist USSR? Seriously, it *surprises* you that these countries aren't crazy about the idea of a newly militaristic Russia invading its neighbors?

"Oh, that's right, it's the list of countries that had sucking up to US and taking political potshots at Russia as the cornerstone of their foreign policy since 1991."

I don't get it. Please explain to me how "sucking up to the U.S." and/or "taking political potshots at Russia" are crimes.* While you're at it, you can explain how in hindsight, those "potshots" don't seem to be entirely justified. Then explain what any of this has to do with the credibility of their recent joint statement. Seriously, I'm waiting -- I'd love to hear this.

"With such famous successes as..." [insert here a list of things that (a) have absolutely nothing to do with the current situation, and (b) are utterly insignificant compared to the things Russia has done and is capable of doing again]

You ever notice how there are some people doggedly determined to interpret the world around them in a certain way, reality be damned? If not, you haven't looked in a mirror lately, buddy.

    - Alaska Jack

* Edit - Of course, here I am referring to the international arena, as it appears that within its borders, "taking political potshots at Russia" has indeed become a crime.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

War started in 1939. Nazi entered Estonia in 1941. The war lasted until 1945.

1941 certainly was at the beginning of the war.

Also Russians had absolutely nothing to do with occupation of Poland, and WWII had absolutely nothing to do with USSR taking over Baltic countries -- if anything, USSR tried to keep itself out of it as much as possible until Nazi finally attacked it.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

Perhaps in Russia they teach the war started on June 22nd 1942 when Germans broke their alliance with you???

Oh, $deity, I didn't even notice that at first.

You think, Germany attacked USSR in 1942? 1942?

Go, kill yourself.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

They have done pretty well for themselves after regaining independence and clearly want to avoid becoming part of Russia's sphere of influence. And they did it by allying with whomever has the military capabilities to oppose the Russians - currently the US and Nazi Germany during WW2.

They are tiny, microscopic country, so they can completely live off "assistance" that would be a pocket change for any "real" country or international entity, be it US, EU or, say, India. Any actual economic development would be a bonus.

but you have to realize that many of those volunteers were not fighting alongside the Nazis was not because they supported the SS ideology. They did it because they needed an ally against Soviet Russia in order to maintain their existence as an independent state, not because they were Nazis. This is part of why the Estonians may celebrate Nazi volunteers - not because they were "better Nazi than Germans" as you said, but because they fought against the Russians (and thus for independence).

That would be like joining Al Qaeda to fight American TV censorship. One has to be stupid to make this choice in 1940's, and be completely out of his mind to see it as a great accomplishment now.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

I'm guessing on the list of countries invaded and occupied for a half-century by the oppressive Stalinist USSR? Seriously, it *surprises* you that these countries aren't crazy about the idea of a newly militaristic Russia invading its neighbors?

USSR ceased to be Stalinist in 1956. That's 35 out of 51 years of non-Stalinist USSR that apparently you know nothing about.

I don't get it. Please explain to me how "sucking up to the U.S." and/or "taking political potshots at Russia" are crimes.

Loud proclaimation of lies in exchange for money and petty harassment of people out of hatred toward their country or ethnicity, or glorification of Nazi are usually not crimes in themselves, even though in some places they are, and for a good reason. Nevertheless they undermine one's credibility everywhere.

You ever notice how there are some people doggedly determined to interpret the world around them in a certain way, reality be damned? If not, you haven't looked in a mirror lately, buddy.

I am sure, you don't think that what you wrote actually applies to yourself. Go, listen to more American propaganda workers, to make yourself more confident in your worldview that was entirely manufactured by them. After all, popular kids do that, so you should, too -- right?

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alaska Jack]

Thank you. Your posts have provided a valuable service -- reminding me that there are genuine scary loonies out there in the world.

    - Alaska Jack

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Anonymous Coward]

Well Alex, have you ever actually been to one of those countries recently? I so happen to live in one of them and to tell you the truth I'm no fan of Russia's politics towards the Baltic states or any other exUSSR country, including Georgia. I'm no fan of US politics either if you wanna know. In fact, narrow minded people like you who separate the world into America and Russia are the reason conflicts like that occur. It's every russian's ultimate goal to hate America and all the other western civilized countries that according to you suck up to it.

The list that you have so nicely crafted here from your russian friends says that you have no clue about the achievements of any these countries. And what's even worse that this kind of propaganda is broadcasted here on specifically localized russian TV networks, brainwashing the people who don't have access to the legitimate information and raging the local russian speaking population even more against the very country that feeds them.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[mwegrzynek]

Russians had absolutely nothing to do with occupation of Poland

<sarcasm>Yes, of course. And staging a second front, detaining and killing of polish officers, policemen and other members of intelligentia didn't help Germans a bit. Also the whole Ribbentrop-Molotov pact thing is a myth, and USSR grabbing large chunks of Poland as it's WWII prize doesn't count either.</sarcasm>

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

Poland had Western Belarus and Western Ukraine territories, that USSR taken over at that time. They are still parts of Belarus and Ukraine, and even modern Poland doesn't dare to claim that they were "occupied" or ever were supposed to belong to Poland in the first place.

Killing prisoners of that war was a stupid and uncivilized act, however in no way it was supposed to either help or hurt Germany -- Poland would be taken over by Germany either way, and the last thing USSR wanted is Nazi in Lvov and Grodno. Soon enough it was a moot point because Germany attacked USSR anyway, and Nazi quickly outdid NKVD in each and every kind of cruelty that it practiced. Yet now Polish politicians seem to love Germany and hate Russia.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

My opinion is shared by hundreds of millions of people -- if we are scary loonies, you should better hide under the bed and take a TV in there, so you can watch Fox News and CNN regurgitating your beliefs.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

I'm no fan of US politics either if you wanna know. In fact, narrow minded people like you who separate the world into America and Russia are the reason conflicts like that occur.

My opinions about Baltic states' governments would be absolutely irrelevant if it wasn't based on their actions. The fact is, it's they promote a kind of ethnic retaliation against Russians who live in those countries, and make meaningless but loud accusations toward Russia every time their American masters give them a cue. That is hostile, unwarranted and dishonorable, and my (or anyone's) opinion changes nothing about this fact. At no point they dare to accuse Germany (that actually occupied them and brought nothing but harm, death and destruction) or US (that is using them as expendable "allies" in messing with both Russia and EU).

It's every russian's ultimate goal to hate America and all the other western civilized countries that according to you suck up to it.

I live in US since 1993 -- moved there after graduation (there were no decent technical jobs anywhere in xUSSR at that point) and ended up working on a long-term projects, so moving away out of merely disliking the government was impractical. Not being a politician I can easily live in a country ruled by the government that I hate as long as it does not shoot at me, however over all this time at no point my opinion of US government managed to improve -- it went further and further downhill. If you think, US is not being run by the filthiest scum that can be found anywhere in the world outside of prisons and mental hospitals, you are deluding yourself.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Anonymous Coward]

also appears in "occupied by soviets" list.

i don't want to be seen as troll, russian invasian in georgia, reminds us the darker years of our history.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alaska Jack]

You win. Your inexorable logic and firm grasp of history have convinced me that the citizens of Russia's smaller neighbors have no reason to be alarmed; that being occupied by the Soviet Union was something akin to living in Disneyland for 50 years; and that all this has been covered up by an anti-Russian conspiracy comprised of Fox News, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the BBC, the Associated Press and every other media outlet except for Russia's state-owned ones. Well played, comrade!

      - Alaska Jack

PS Please forgive us, Walter Duranty! You were right after all!

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

You win. Your inexorable logic and firm grasp of history have convinced me that the citizens of Russia's smaller neighbors have no reason to be alarmed; that being occupied by the Soviet Union was something akin to living in Disneyland for 50 years;

You sound exactly like a person who would tell me that I am currently in Mexico occupied by US (California).

and that all this has been covered up by an anti-Russian conspiracy comprised of Fox News, CNN, the New York Times, the Washington Post, the BBC, the Associated Press

Take into account that for half a century a large part of US culture was based entirely on hostility toward USSR. Would you expect your media, that lives or dies by having access to government officials ahead of competing news outlets, to actually tell you the truth when it's not convenient for American politicians and their corporate sponsors/masters? Didn't war in Iraq teach you anything about quality of information you get from your press when government finds it convenient to lie? Or are you so dumb, you can't put those two propaganda campaigns together?

and every other media outlet except for Russia's state-owned ones. Well played, comrade!

I don't need Russian press to tell me what I have or have not seen when I lived in USSR. As opposed to Americans, I do not trust opinions of authorities, media and celebrities above my own eyes and ears.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[Alex Belits]

Oh yeah, "occupied". Baltic countries had their brief "independence" after WWI, revolution and civil war in Russia, after centuries of membership in -- guess what? -- Russian Empire. By definitions like this Moscow is now occupied by Ukraine.

Obviously, this is not taught to proud American patriots now.

Re:Lithuanian President's Website

[mwegrzynek]

Poland had Western Belarus and Western Ukraine territories, that USSR taken over at that time. They are still parts of Belarus and Ukraine, and even modern Poland doesn't dare to claim that they were "occupied" or ever were supposed to belong to Poland in the first place.

Well, the land that is now Western Belarus and Ukraine were in 1939 part of Poland and were annexed by a military intervention coordinated with Nazi Germany by Red Army. Today, no one in Poland (except few loonies) is questioning post-WWII borders, as no one sees any real benefit in changing them (I presume most Germans think more or less the same about current western parts of Poland, which were German far longer, than they were Polish).

That doesn't mean, the parts annexed by USSR were not Polish at the time Red Army marched in. There was relatively little resistance, because Polish General Command ordered Polish troops to avoid engaging soviet units. But halting quite large forces on the eastern borders of Poland which supposed to defend the land against Soviets eventually, diluted already weak defenses against Germany and spelled doom for Second Republic.

Killing prisoners of that war was a stupid and uncivilized act, however in no way it was supposed to either help or hurt Germany -- Poland would be taken over by Germany either way, and the last thing USSR wanted is Nazi in Lvov and Grodno.

Taking over Poland by Germany was not that certain at the moment the Russians came in. I remember reading memoirs of one of the German generals leading the invasion, in which he stated, the Germans were not anticipating so long campaign and were running short of supplies. If the second front would not be open, German offensive would probably stalled on on the second line of Polish defense, which was planned on Vistula river. That means, Poland probably would lost large part of its western territory, but wouldn't be erased from the map for almost six years (of course if the French or English moved their asses at that time and fulfilled their obligations, the Germans wouldn't advance even that far, and the whole WWII madness could be stopped in September 1939).

Yet now Polish politicians seem to love Germany and hate Russia.

Sadly this is true. Lots of right wing politicians view Russians as the ultimate enemy.

Personally, I admire Russian culture, like the Russians I know personally and I'm planning to start learning Russian in September. I like their design philosophy, their space program. As most of the Polish people I'm deeply grateful for the sacrifice of many Russian soldiers, who helped Poland to get rid of the Nazis and died on the road to Berlin (just look on the soviet military cemeteries in Poland, for example in Wroclaw). But in their name, and millons others who died, I can not sit doing nothing, when someone is trying to rewrite history for the purpose of feeling better (be it Russians, Germans Or Poles). All countries have some parts of their history they are not very proud of (for example Jedwabne was not easy to accept by Polish society, as I think it is difficult to acknowledge Katyn by Russians). But when we are not learning from our mistakes, we are destined to repeat them.

4chan?

[Anonymous Coward]

So.... 4chan is in Georgia?

Re: Translation

[Anonymous Coward]

Good translation, and thanks for the twitters.
The person also mentions that protesters are out in Tbilisi, notwithstanding Russian bombing runs, that Russian hackers are attacking any news site that relates what is really going on in Georgia, that he has asked some hacker friends to attack CMI (rough translation of a Russian news site) and they have (seemingly) complied, that he hears rumblings - the light has been knocked out, as well as telephone towers and no TV exists now, and finally asks for humanity to help. He provides a link to bombed out suburbs, here: http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/44907000/jpg/_44907206_rubbleafp466.jpg.

Relevant Charles Stross short story

[The Master Control P]

Behold, the future of War!

Hell, I'd take what he depicts there to the usual government-sanctioned mass-murder type of war...

Re:Relevant Charles Stross short story

[c0sine]

"Oh, next!" (C) Robot Bender, Futurama

Re:Relevant Charles Stross short story

[emj]

My thought exactly, it's a good book describing more or less what happen in Estonia. Using fools to attack (basically telling lots of people on blogs to do things that are not that effective on its own, but in the large picture it does something..

Re:The real problem is ....

[aliquis]

Yeah, clearly running Windows was the issue, if they had ran leenucks this would never have been able to happen! NEVAR!

It's true!!

[narcberry]

I just did a search for Georgian owned websites, and couldn't find any!

Increased traffic, yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

It also explains defaced Georgian governmental sites, too. Sure.

Re:Increased traffic, yes.

[martin-boundary]

It also explains defaced Georgian governmental sites, too. Sure.

No, that's because they're using Microsoft web servers. Way too easy for script kiddies :)

Re:Increased traffic, yes.

[Anonymous Coward]

They were running Apache on Unix, and you could have Netcraft confirmed it in about 0.214 seconds.

Re:The real problem is ....

[X0563511]

I think a BMP-1 would be a better example for this part of the world. And the screen would go on the back, where the door is.

Yep, that's what the Georgians use. 149 with reactive armor in 2008. 40 in 2007. Originally 667 were inherited from former USSR in 1991. 80 BMP-1 and BMP-2 IFVs were claimed by the Abkhaziyan Army and the same amount by the South Ossetian Army. But Russia still has 1,543 in active service and more than 9,057 in reserve.

The Russians hit the truth.

[reporter]

The Kremlin is now issuing official statements accusing the Georgians of committing genocide. The Russians are using this lie to justify invading Georgia and seizing it.

To understand how Russian "justice" works, read the shocking story published by "The Washington Post" (TWP). Natalia Trufanova was driving a Zhiguli (a lightweight Russian car) with her family in Moscow in September of 2007. She was minding her own business and dutifully obeying the traffic laws. Then, suddenly, a motorcade carrying Supreme Court President Vyacheslav Lebedev and coming from the opposite direction entered the wrong lane -- the lane in which Trufanova was driving. A vehicle in the motorcade smashed into the Zhiguli, killing Trufanova and her family. The Russian police wrote a false report, claiming that Trufanov drove into the wrong lane.

TWP notes, "When angry witnesses started posting video on the Web clearly showing that it was the motorcade that was driving in the wrong lane, the lead investigator looking into the accident said that he didn't have access to the Internet."

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

Do you really think like this? 2000 of innocent people have been killed by Georgia soldiers... And you still claim that it's Russian fault... Oh my... we just can't leave Osetia area - there are Russian people who are under Georgia fire. I just wonder how west journalists 'play' with words to claim Russian guilty. Guys quite frankly - stop listen American propaganda and take a look on _real_ things. We didn't start the war, we didn't want it, we just can't allow to kill Russian people. And if that happen we have to protect our people in other part of the world - we will do without any doubts!!!

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[pallmall1]

-stop listen American propaganda and take a look on _real_ things.

Here's some British coverage for you. It looks like its a_real_thing to that woman in the photo.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

i'm not even wondered by - you always believe in _what_ you want to believe! Nothing else. I saw British report about Russian violence in Georgia - and it's full of sh*t. And it's not surprice in case of Russian-British problems (remember Litvinenco). Anyway, you may take a look from another point of view http://top.rbc.ru/photoreport/09/08/2008/217994.shtml Please, don't get me wrong - any more or less normal government will be protecting their civilians (and of course it has to). But there is a confrontation I would say btw Amecrica and Russia. It's not started today, not yesterday - do you remember Karibian Crisis? Of course I really hate _any_ violence - but in case of Georgia we just have no choise except to protect our people. Maybe you should take a look on photos fron Iraque to realise something first! So any information could be present in two views but it doesn't make Osetia live easier. And as I saw many-many georgian civilians just hate this war too - but georgian government it seems to be in madness and doesn't think about their own people... unfortunelly... i really hope this situation (war) will be stopped soon and _normal_ negotiations being.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[jd]

The Daily Mail is not known for being terribly honest. It's a tabloid. If the news isn't in at least two serious broadsheets from independent sources, or one broadsheet and either the BBC or ITN, then it should not be regarded as credible. (As for American news sources, I trust virtually nothing from any source. Most of it is reprinted from Reuters or some other news agency pool, probably misquoted, and then censored by the advertisers. If it's Fox, it's just really bad fiction.)

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[TrueRecord]

Chronologically it was this way: At midnight between the 7th and 8th of August Georgian regular army started heavy bombings of the villages and Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia full of people btw. The villages were wiped out. The city was destroyed. For about 15 hours there were only Georgian forces, the forces of defenders of South Ossetia, the peace keepers who could not do anything but watch, and civilians who were taken by surprise. About 2000 non-combatants were murdered by the bombardments, the city hospital was ruined. There were losses among the peace keepers. The hell lasted about 15 hours when the at last Russian forces approached Tskhinvali. They were really welcomed because Georgians' military turned out to be very ruthless. Words fail to describe the atrocities by the Georgian military.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[c0sine]

Hey, wise boy: what the hell that chilling story about traffic incidents (posted by Washington Post - LOL: wanna share with us something from Faux News too?) has to do with Georgian murderers killing 2,000+ civilians in Osetia? Russia had stopped the genocide there, you brain washed punk Have a nice day

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

"-We- didn't start the war"?

Sounds to me like all you're doing is eating a different brand of propaganda.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

you decide... it doesn't change the things a lot. All I said is that our peacekeeper was under fire first by georgian military. There was a cell-call recently from Tskhinvaly - there are a lot of people under ruins - they just can't get out 'cause of fire... so you still want to talk about propaganda? lets stop, please! i'm not biased to continue...

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

You're obviously being spoon-fed by domestic propaganda when you feel able to assert without doubt that the Georgian military attacked Russian forces first. You seem to be an almost frighteningly complete example of how media can manipulate people. Russia has been bombing Georgia, something both sides agree on, yet you seem to think that the Georgians are responsible for the deaths and the carnage, and that Russia are the mighty saviours of South Ossetia.

Get real.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

I just wonder why Georgia announces the withdrawal of their troops from South Ossetia if they never have been there.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

Of course you are right... who doubts? I wish if only you could take a look on Osetian people eyes... I don't want to bring more rudness there. You may think as you want - it's your opinion. But I beg you at least try to think about facts sometimes.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[tindur]

How about making one independent Ossetia out of the two Ossetias? Independent like "not under Russian rule"?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

He he - Colorado.

I think that they have African hot head over broad writing. Int on e, baby.

Is there Russ e bee on that Fox channel?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Weretrout]

Oh, c'mon, everyone knows that the only true news you can get on this planet come from Russian government...I mean independent news agencies, sorry. Without them and chaps in Russian government nobody would have know that it was actually Ukraine which started the conflict by selling weapons to Georgia. Who would have known ?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[egr]

http://forum.for-ua.com/read.php?1,3085546 these doesn't look real at all you linked to one of them

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

Kremlin Chronology this is. Seek into history you must. Propaganda war against Georgia in Russian media escalated several days before Georgia took it's forces to Ossetia. Also, Ossetian rebels (I really hate that word) started to bomb Georgian villages over the unofficial border at the same time.

What would a president of a country do, if region if it starts bombing other regions. Sit and wait? Right. As to casualty numbers, the exact numbers and the reasons behind it are just speculations - there are no international organizations there to confirm it. Btw, EU proposal to have independent (read: non-russian) peacekeeping force in that region created a LOT of russian lobby work to keep it from happening. I wonder why. No, I don't wonder, I know russian government far too well.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

The point of this entire discussion is that the facts are provided by unreliable sources, and put both sides in favourable light. Yours are no more genuinely factual than mine. The difference is, though, that your media is controlled by the government, and the government of your country has a history of altering any inconvenient truth to a justification for their actions, regardless of legality and morality.

You're blindly eating their propaganda, believing it to be genuine fact, and you're projecting your gullible nature into this discussion.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

Nazi germany used same rethorics before second world war. And the spit squiring masses followed. Everybody else in the world was doing propaganda. I say, thank god we have true, just and independent russian media! Bless Medvedjev, Hail Putin.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[nospam007]

How about making one independent Ossetia out of the two Ossetias? Independent like "not under Russian rule"?

That's what _both_ Russia and Georgia don't want at any cost.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[TrueRecord]

these are just facts; sad but true; Saakashvili is insane to start the war.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

How can I prove anything to you? You only believe in what you want to. And you claiming _your_ point is right meanwhile mine - not! Maybe you live near Osetia so you are watching the facts in real? Can we stop this trolling please? My facts are from people who live there and who saw this. I'm not trying to say - hey, it's official facts, I'm just saying the words of people from there. So please stop trolling and claiming the things you are know nothing about! So I will not reply anything else. If you're interested in threading - go, do it yourself, sorry.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

What is it exactly that my point is? What I'm claiming is that you're asserting everything you say as being factual, despite being based off of historically inaccurate, biased, manipulative and propagandist media, and horribly unreliable "second hand eyewitness accounts", while suggesting that -I'm- the gulliable one for being sceptical about the accuracy of your claims.

You claim that I'm a troll, but you're so caught up in your "you're wrong, I'm right" game that you've completely lost track of what it is that I'm really saying.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

Where do you see me claiming that Georgia never had troops in South Ossetia? It'd be somewhat strange for a sovereign nation not to have a military presence within its own borders. Because, you know, South Ossetia is Georgian sovereign territory.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

My facts are based on calls from _real_ people living in Osetia. Some of them I even know (indirectly thru my pets)! So you're saying "The difference is, though, that your media is controlled by the government, and the government of your country has a history of altering any inconvenient truth to a justification for their actions, regardless of legality and morality." - maybe you want to say that _your_ (or even any) more or less serious information sources are _independent_? They never was independent in any country! "Sounds to me like all you're doing is eating a different brand of propaganda." As I said the sentence "We didn't start this war" is based on cell-calls from real people! So decide yourself - what is true, what is not - me personally don't need more provements then I already have.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[rve]

The daily mail is the UK equivalent of Fox news by the way

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[TheRaven64]

Here is the BBC's coverage of the same event. A lot less emotional language and a more detailed explanation of the background of the conflict. There seem to be a lot of conflicting reports with both sides claiming the other is responsible for large numbers of civilian deaths. The article ends:

The UK, the US and France, are pinpointing what they say is Russia's aggression as the key factor in the slide towards war, while Moscow insists Georgia is to blame.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

Funny that you should leave out ".. and horribly unreliable "second hand eyewitness accounts", while suggesting that -I'm- the gulliable one for being sceptical about the accuracy of your claims.." when citing my posts.

By your logic, my claims would trumph yours, had I been posting this from South Ossetia. Merit, evidence or insight into the conflict irrlevant. You also fail to acknowledge that I don't base any of my claims off of any claims made by media. You're either trolling this thread, or you're simply too caught up in proving everyone else wrong that you can't keep it on topic. In any case, I've had enough of this futile exercise.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[cyrill_grk]

well lets stop this thread indeed. You are not in Osetia and seems never got any call from there. Want you believe me or not - I don't really care now. So - bye!

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[jabithew]

Ossetia (and Abkhazia) are still part of Georgian territory. Russia stepped in to the frozen conflicts and has since used the provinces to antagonise Georgia (by, for instance, handing out Russian citizenship to all claimers if they want it).

Having said that; Georgia *did* provoke this round of fighting and should really have expected Russia to step in. My instinct says that they did, and wanted to try and get the West to face Russia down. Fat chance.

There's no right or wrong here, just a lot of stupid brinkmanship which backfired.

I should point out that I can never work out why people bother trying to pacify breakaway provinces. It never seems to be worth the effort.

(I'm British, and yes, we hold Northern Ireland. I am aware of the hypocrisy here, but Northern Ireland is a subtle case. I wonder what nuances there are to South Ossetia which aren't reported here?)

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is what Georgia says. Reality tells that there is no Georgian authority over South Ossetia since 1992.

South Ossetia was never part of the Georgian territory. It has been a souvereign country until Stalin (a Georgian by the way) decidet it would be easier to manage if it shares territorial government with Georgia. And it declared independance short after the sovjet block break down.

I wonder how you reason the Georgian claims for Ossetia.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Goaway]

You're obviously being spoon-fed by domestic propaganda when you feel able to assert without doubt that the Georgian military attacked Russian forces first.

And you aren't?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

No. I may be exposed to it through local media, but I'm not the one taking any of it as absolute truth.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[theshowmecanuck]

Putin is KGB. He is running Russia. He is running Russian media. That makes my process to doubt Russian reports from the start until proved otherwise.

This is a prime example of why we shouldn't outsource information technology work to places like Russia and China. What I think is scary is that the company that programmed the provisioning/network system for a major Canadian telco (starts with a T), and a significant number of other telco provisioning systems, outsources the work to Russia. How does it feel now to have them able to control our communications systems?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Goaway]

Anybody can close their eyes to facts they don't like. That hardly makes one an unbiased observer.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

Mind elaborating on where it is that I close my eyes to anything?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Wiseblood1]

So I can call ossetia and make any claim I want and say it is true because of that phone call?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Goaway]

Weren't you just proudly claiming to do just that?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

I can't see how you would arrive at that assumption. Treating any media reporting with a bit of scepticism isn't closing ones eyes to facts; it's merely taking into account the very real possibility of the reported facts being less than factual. This is especially likely in situations where conflicting reports exist. Such as this particular situation.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Goaway]

You don't really come off sounding like you're saying "we can't be sure". You seem more like you're pushing the opposing view. If that's not the case, then I misread you, and I apologize.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

I may come off sounding confrontational, but my issue is not as much with the reported conflict as it is with blind adherence to news reported by unreliable sources. I can see the ambiguity, though, as frustration got the better of me.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[oldhack]

(I'm British, and yes, we hold Northern Ireland. I am aware of the hypocrisy here, but Northern Ireland is a subtle case. I wonder what nuances there are to South Ossetia which aren't reported here?)

Hypocrisy alright. "Subtle"? "Nuanced"? What isn't in life?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[jabithew]

Well, the significant facts are that the majority in the territory (just) still want to be part of the UK. And before anyone asks if they have the choice, yes, they do. The six counties can hold a referendum to be part of the Republic (see Anglo-Irish Agreement of 1985).

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[h4rm0ny]

In Soviet Russia, the defenders invade YOU.

Yes, poor taste, I know. But not as poor taste the sick joke the Russian government has told to justify these bombings.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[ivan_zzz]

PEOPLE! If you still can THINK by yourself - just try to do it now! Why are you watching ONLY "ONE-SIDED" information from CNN and others news channals??? Just look at chronology of this events!!! 1) GEORGIAN forces ATTACKED Tshinvaly first and DESTROYED this city!!! It was 07/08/08 - before russians could make anything!!! 2) Now there is MORE than 2000 citizens KILLED by georgians!!! 3) Why georgian tanks entered South osetia 07/08/08 and fired at russian peacemakers??? Because its a provocation and GENOCIDE of osetians!!! Just look at HISTORY BOOK or Enciclopedia! in South Osetia MORE than 2/3 of population are russians! Thats why Son of the Bitch SAAKASHVILLY so easy used HEAVY ARTILLERY to destroy Tshinvaly and several small towns... If you prefere to be BLIND - just eat all that shit of your official news. But BETTER ASK OSETIANS AND OTHER GEORGIAN`s NEIGHBOURS! WHY THEY ARE READY TO WAR AGAINST GEORGIA? Because GEORGIA IS FOUL AGRESSOR!!! They are licking any ass to join NATO - just to gain "a big brothers" alliance. But its THE WAY TO NOWHERE! All nations of Caucasus will fight arainst Georgia if it`ll not stop! DO NOT LET them DRAW your countries into this fucking georgian game!!! Georgia HAS NO chances to get any acceptable ending of this game. Because Georgia killed too many people, their neighbours. So they NEVER will have any warm relations with Georgia... What YOU will say if your nearest country destroy several towns on your territory and kill 2000 people (in one night)? And later, when your ally try to help you and resist agressor all massmedia begin to SCREAM about YOUR blame and your ally`s blame??? They STAND THINGS UPSIDE DOWN!!!! Fucking PURCHASED newsmakerk! I`m ashamed for you!!!

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[hoodrat1140]

I wonder if a case like this could happen in Georgia...

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[theshowmecanuck]

Ha ha.... you are a KGB/FSB propaganda shill. Shut up and go back to work in the Lubyanka... stick to torturing people like independent television news people who don't want to say what Putin and the rest of your KGB/FSB friends put in their mouth. You yell because you are afraid others will find the truth. Too late, everyone already knows that Soviet Russia is back. Now that Soviet Russia is invading other countries it is in plain sight. You are just afraid that NATO will go into countries like Czech, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria, Romania, Georgia, and prevent your best friend Putin from invading them.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[CmdrGravy]

The difference is, though, that your media is controlled by the government, and the government of your country has a history of altering any inconvenient truth to a justification for their actions, regardless of legality and morality

To be fair though there's quite a few western governments you could level this accusation at as well.

The thing is here though this guy is obviously reading news from a wide variety of sources both within Russia and from Georgia, the UK and America so I'd say he was seeking a more balanced view than perhaps many of the people here who are just reading the US/UK accounts.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[FireStormZ]

Ummm skippy,

You left out the part where rebels were shelling across the border from South Ossetia into Georgia... You know the rebels backed by Russia..

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Mondor]

Just take a look at which direction goes the flow of refugees. They all flee to Russia. Why all of them are flowing into the land of aggressor? Are they all stupid?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

Firstly, not all of them are fleeing into Russia. Busloads are evacuated into Georgia as well. Secondly, it would be somewhat understandable for separatists wanting to flee to Russia, regardless of who started the aggression, wouldn't it?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Mondor]

It would be logical to flee to the side of someone who is not going to kill you.

When, during the (place the name of the war here) Germany attacked (place the name of the country here), people didn't flee to Germany.

Also, I see the large humanitarian help (like bread, generators, hospitals) from Russians. Didn't catch a note about the same thing done by Georgians.

Also, I doubt that any separation allows you to raze the city, killing 7% of its population.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

Your analogies are flawed in that Germany never invaded countries or regions that *wanted* to be part of the German regime. That's the point I'm making. It's also a lot easier for Russia to immediately mobilise aid than it is for Georgia. Especially when Georgian forces would be destroyed if they even tried to bring it in. You're eating the "good guy" image that Russia is trying to assume raw.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Mondor]

In this case the role of Germany is played by Georgia. South Osetia or Abkhazia also do not want to become part of it. Especially because they never were a part of it.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

As far as the world is concerned, they're within Georgian borders. It's an internal issue that Russia should ever unilaterally act on. Even if one would argue that they should, Russia is going well beyond any justifiable response by bombing targets close to Tbilisi.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[MightyYar]

I think you have it right.

Forgive me if my history is off, but here is the progression:
1. South Ossetia, which is a tiny little area with less than 80,000 people, has an independence movement. Well, not quite independence - they want to be united with the rest of Ossetia which lies in Russia.
2. Fighting ensues, and Russia gets involved. The net result is that non-Ossetian ethnic groups get kicked out of South Ossetia and Georgia effectively loses control of the region. Depending on your viewpoint, Russia either interceded necessarily to prevent humanitarian disaster or imperialistically got involved in the domestic affairs of a sovereign nation. Or maybe a little of each.
3. The region is now effectively controlled by Russia. It has Russian troops, is run by Russians, even gives the citizenry Russian citizenship. All along, there are little skirmishes as the now-protected separatists continue to make little attacks on Georgia.
4. Fast forward a few years. Georgia has a more modern military and a bit of a nationalist streak. They vote in a guy who promises to re-unite the country. He tries by re-taking the capital of South Ossetia.
5. In the process, quite a few people die. These include some Russian troops and a bunch of "Russians", who seem to actually be South Ossetians holding the aforementioned Russian citizenship.
6. Russia reacts by sending in a pretty substantial force into South Ossetia and attacking targets in Georgia proper.
7. Georgian troops at first fight, then withdrawn. Georgia says this is a ceasefire and retreat, but Russia calls it a "regrouping" and keeps fighting. Georgia decides to resume fighting.
8. Russia invades another portion of Georgia - Abkhazia.

Personally, I'm playing catchup with the history of the place. It looks like Georgia was pretty irresponsible to attempt this latest military action, but mostly because Russia is a dangerous neighbor. I don't think that Russia is behaving in an acceptable manner.

I'm torn on whether Georgia has the "right" to reunite their boundaries using force - I currently live in the US, which of course was brought together by force during the Civil War. But I do know that Russia effectively annexed South Ossetia, and that doesn't seem like something that I could support.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Mondor]

I suggest you watch this - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yCwTo9AdT2c

If you take a look at the map, you will see that Tbilisi is very close to South Osetia. All their bases (sorry) are close to or far beyond the Tbilisi. Planes are lifting from airfields far from S.O., and they have to be destroyed if you want to stop bombings.

Also, "as far as the world is concerned", Yugoslavia, Iraq and others had internal issues too. So there is no need to apply double standards. In this case - all citizens of affected region were citizens of Russia. If one citizen is murdered, the country shall prosecute the killer. That's the reason we have governments and countries - to protect and improve.

Think about it - in a few hours Georgians murdered about 2000 citizens of Russia. Do you still think it's an internal affair? Americans wouldn't agree. They would cry for vengeance.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[mikkelm]

That's a ridiculous argument. Georgia is a small country, and if you can use vicinity to justify bombing targets in or near the capital of Georgia, you can use to to justify bombing any part of Georgia. It just doesn't work like that. The only ones doing any bombings from the air by now are the Russians anyway.

Double standards? What on Earth makes you assume that I supported the outcome of the Balkan and Iraqi conflicts? I'm not applying any double standards. Keep your intellectually dishonest assumptions to yourself.

The people affected may have been citizens of Russia, but they're citizens of Russia because Russia has been handing out citizenships to South Ossetians like it was going out of fashion. You're incredibly naive if you believe that Russia gave these people citizenships for any reason other than to have a vaguely legitimate reason to invade Georgian sovereign territory, should the Georgian government decide to retaliate against the terrorist attacks carried out by these "Russian" separatists.

You talk about the reason for having governments, while advocating the backhanded invasion of another country, and challenging legitimate Georgian sovereignty. I think you need to revise your motivations for supporting the Russians, so that they aren't self-contradictory.

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[Anonymous Coward]

This is typical russian situation on the roads here. It's inner problem. But Georgian military killed children and old-people in South Osetya. This is real genocide, this breaks any worldwide rules and conventions. Georgia accepted European resolution to stop fire, but while this resolution were going to Moscow, geogian military continued to attack... Why Georgian Propaganda not tell about this to all over the world?

Re:The Russians hit the truth.

[oldhack]

The same holds, among others, for the Baltic and other ex-Soviet countries with Russian population - just draw the boundaries accordingly. It's a messy business, and sensible people should work it out without violence, muddle through if you will - something the Brits normally handle with admirable pragramtism.

Agree - congestion more likely than attack

[Anonymous Coward]

Last I checked, when hunting down a malicious access attempt against a site of mine, the Georgian President's site is hosted on a shared server, with about 100 other sites.

And it sits, if memory serves, at the end of a traceroute about 1 mile long, on what looked like a very flaky connection even during normal days. Any 'attack' is more likely the connection into Georgia being loved to death than attacked.

If you are on a narrow pipe, as the Georgians seem to be, a Japanese teenager with a 50MBPs home connection can cause you problems, let alone all the journalists of the world and other rubber-neckers wanting to visit.

Re:The real problem is ....

[Atlantis-Rising]

Well, yes. But a BMP-1 has very different access points to an M1.

Screen-hatch, perhaps...

We've been discussing the war

[Anonymous Coward]

We've been discussing this and other things involved with the war over at StupidSheeple.com

Can't believe the cable news stations aren't covering what might very well be the opening shots of world war 3.

There are no good guys in this war.

[tetromino]

This may be hard for an American mind to grasp, but *there are no good guys here*.

Georgians are not good guys. Their goal is to militarily crush a national independence movement and to subjugate a people who hate the Georgians' guts. They've been planning this blitzkrieg operation for years (a nation doesn't increase its military spending by a factor of 30 if they aren't planning to invade somebody.) They cynically violated ceasefire terms, used massed artillery to bombard residential areas (killing ~1400 Ossetian civilians in one day), and were ethnically cleansing Ossetian villages. Now that their military effort has failed, they've launched a massive propaganda offensive to convince ignorant westerners that white is black and that a nation that launched an offensive war is somehow a victim.

But Russians ain't good guys either. Instead of trying to limit the killing, it looks like they are escalating the conflict by supporting the Abkhazians in Kodori. They are cynically using the excuse of protecting Ossetians from genocide to conduct a massive bombing campaign against Georgia's military infrastructure. And Russia has neither the desire nor the technological capability to limit collateral damage from its bombs.

What you are seeing is, essentially, a small bully being bullied by a bigger bully.

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[BillyGee]

Weeeelll....actually it's more like Russia has been planning this for years. Those Ossetian peaceniks you talk about opened fire across the "border" at Georgian villages, knowing Georgia had vowed to protect their territory. Of course they wouldn't have done this without knowing Russia had an invasion plan ready.

Or do you really believe a country whose leadership insists that "we can't control this, our volunteers have taken action", while fighter jets and bombers are flying about and tank columns are rolling in.

The best "proof" for anything is Russia's continued threats to all of its neighbours, whether to attack the Czech Republic or Poland over any planned missile shield, attack Georgia if they dared join NATO, attack the Baltic States for pretty much the same reason as Georgia now - "mistreatment" of russian citizens living there.

Russia is trying to set a precedent here - if our citizens are living in another sovereign nation, we reserve the right to use military force to act in their interest. While the good folks of Brighton Beach likely don't have much to worry about, Russia's neighbouring countries do.

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[tetromino]

No, Russia was not planning this for years - primarily because this war significantly weakens Russia's position. Russia's main goal is to keep Georgia out of NATO. To do so, all it had to do was sponsor the Ossetian and Abkhazian independence movements (nations with unrecognized de-facto independent provinces are not allowed to be NATO members). But now that Russia has sent an army brigade into South Ossetia, the Ossetian independence movement no longer looks genuine (some Western observers have compared it to a Russian land-grab), and as a result, there is now a good chance that Georgia will be let into NATO. Given that starting this war would make it much harder to achieve Russia's foreign policy goals, do you really think Russia would have wanted to start it?

The invasion of Ossetia was a very shrewd move on Georgia's part. Massive military retaliation was the least bad of several bad response moves that Russia had at its disposal.

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[Anonymous Coward]

But now that Russia has sent an army brigade into South Ossetia, the Ossetian independence movement no longer looks genuine (some Western observers have compared it to a Russian land-grab), and as a result, there is now a good chance that Georgia will be let into NATO. Given that starting this war would make it much harder to achieve Russia's foreign policy goals, do you really think Russia would have wanted to start it?

Actually, it's the opposite. NATO does not approve new members, who have territorial disputes with their neighbours (for obvious reasons). So, yes, it is in Russia's interests to keep things unsettled in Georgia.

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[Anonymous Coward]

This may be hard for an American mind to grasp, but *there are no good guys here*.

What's hard for American's to grasp is that this doesn't appear to be our fault. There HAS to be a way that this can be blamed on America and George Bush...

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[Anonymous Coward]

I've heard the suggestion that this makes it less likely that Georgia will get into NATO. Despite its historical purpose, does the rest of NATO really want to admit someone who is actually at war with Russia?

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[Anonymous Coward]

>Georgians are not good guys. Their goal is to militarily crush a national independence movement and to subjugate a people who hate the Georgians' guts.

Well, let's not be a stereotype minded and opinionated person here, you can blame entire Georgian like that, on the other hand, I can't blame entire Russians here, however, what Russian Government is doing is unilaterally bombing outside of conflict zone, they are totally out of control, if world is not gonna stop them (some hawkish Putin-alike "FSBshniks" then world would be paying a hefty price, c'mon people can't you see that??? World needs to unite now and unilaterally condemn Russian expansionism!

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[Anonymous Coward]

China has increased it's military spending only six fold in the past ten years, does that mean it's on the warpath?

Source

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[pbhj]

No, Russia was not planning this for years - primarily because this war significantly weakens Russia's position. Russia's main goal is to keep Georgia out of NATO.

I don't know much about all this but from what I've seen recently it seems that Russia's main goal is to be overtly offensive in order to grab as much oil bearing land as possible.

If they can show the world that they'll kick seven-shades-of-sh** out of anyone that opposes them then that can't hurt their plans to actively pursue their role as a world superpower.

The details I've seen of this Georgian intifada look like the age-old tactic of population dilution by a dominant power. Eventually the indigenous population can be crushed by a "civil war" in which the interlopers are supported by the outside power.

Re:There are no good guys in this war.

[coastwalker]

Its certainly not time for the West to take sides but rather to make soothing platitudes about stopping the killing whilst waiting for the Russians to wipe out the Georgians military capability. Do these Georgians honestly believe that the West is stupid enough to back them against the Russians (who have lots of oil and gas). Gee I just cant understand it, who gives a toss about the Georgians, I hope the Russians bomb them into the stone age militarily so they cant do anything stupid again. As for the breakaway provinces, good luck to them under the Russians rather than the Georgians.

Welcome to 21st century warfare...

[tetromino]

...where astroturfing, sock-puppetry, slanted journalism and propaganda matters far more than the reality on the ground. Slashdot is a contested territory, and it looks like Georgia's propaganda troops have launched a first strike.

Not that I'm defending Russia here. The only reason Georgian astroturfers have overpowered the Russian ones on Slashdot is that the moronic Russian leadership, as usual, hasn't been investing enough resources in information warfare.

A fifth column called the mob?

[D4C5CE]

Years ago I witnessed the comparatively clumsy and easily traceable assimilation of a major university's computing center into the botnet of organized crime from two countries now known as major spam havens and phishers' hideouts.

The appropriate authorities were alerted to the danger of this becoming a national security risk as growing sophistication on the part of the perpetrators, if not held at bay early on, would allow them to wreak havoc on critical infrastructures "at their fingertips", as the bot herders came in control of an SaaS cyber-weapon marketable to governments and factions around the world wishing to outsource their dirty work to guns-for-hire.

Needless to say, none of the evidence was thoroughly scrutinized back then before countries could start to make computer crime a branch of their armed forces, and the matter stayed under the officials' radar as a mere annoyance of unsolicited advertising and occasional blackmail of gambling sites, rather than the build-up of a dangerous distributed remote-controlled arsenal.

Bullshit, BP says pipeline has not been bombed

[tetromino]

The owners of the pipeline say it has not been bombed. See http://ca.news.yahoo.com/s/afp/080809/world/georgia_sossetia_russia_unrest_oil_bp

The report about the pipeline attack is almost certainly Georgian propaganda (unless it's simply unsubstantiated rumors) - and it looks like the British journos fell for it. But hey, in this modern world of journalism 2.0, who cares about truth and fact-checking, as long as you can get the pageviews?

Re:Bullshit, BP says pipeline has not been bombed

[Anonymous Coward]

Those bastards... Someone should nuke em for lying like that.

Re: Translation

[c0sine]

Too bad that Osetia's citizens are cut off the communications of any kind: they have no infrastrucure left in the city because of Georgian's missile attacks. Otherwise you'd be trilled by the stories they could tell. Get this: if Russian air-force would start bombing georgians they won't be any left by now. Do you have any idea what a wing Tu-22s can do? Probably not: you're getting your information from CNN and Fox News. Oh and Twitter, of course.

Ah I see now...

[bmo]

THIS is why 4chan is down, right?

--
BMO

Halting State

[emj]

Sound just like a good SciFi book read, where you use lots of useful fools to take political action.

Halting State by Charles Stross

Not that anyone read stuff this long down on slashdot...

Why Is Anyone Surprised?

[DynaSoar]

Anyone who is surprised at this is probably unaware that disruption, denial and subversion of communications is a common factor in all modern (as in more modern than two groups of grunting and growling rock throwers) warfare. Telegraph and phone lines got cut. Radio got jammed. Alexander had fires built upwind of enemy columns to make it hard for them to see each other easily. The US Army confiscated the radio of the British ham operator on Grenada that was broadcasting a running commentary of infantry firing over the heads of the medical students being "rescued". The US news broadcast footage clearly showed them being forced to run under a line of firing (most likely blanks) M-16s; the early news shows broadcast the ham operator's reports along with the footage, but his reports were absent from the late news broadcasts.

Command and control (C2) refers to the ability of military commanders to carry out strategy and tactics. The addition of Communications (C3) refers to inclusion of the ability to carry out C2 without being present on the battlefield and the ability of units to coordinate over distance. That's the US version, the NATO version of C3 being "Consultation, Command and Control", just a different label for the same process. It's now frequently referred to as C4 because it includes computers. Since they are used for more than communication, the fourth C is not redundant. The other thing they're used for is data analysis for intelligence generation, so the "I" in "C4I" *is* redundant. And all the other extensions out to C4ISTAR is just showing off.

Being "cyber", it's pertinent to /. but it's not news unless one assumes that one particular form of communication should be immune to this "time honored tradition".

IT.Sec.Con Insight

[Anonymous Coward]

president.gov.ge took down it's MySQL database temporarily during the attack and changed it's front page during the downtime as an effort to reduce automated attacks upon it's initial page.

The National Bank of Georgia took down it's images temporarily when it was attacked producing text-only pages. It has since restored them.

There is no access to The Ministry of Foreign Affair's website, I have no inside information on what occurred but when the attacked start I do know they purposely turned off web services at some stage, whether or not they have restored them I do not know.

- Ð'ÐÐÑоÑ

DarthLion

[DarthLion]

Big Mac Thesis: No two nations with McDonald's franchises have ever gone to War

It seems like this rule is going to be broken.

McDonalds Moscow vs MCDonalds Tbilisi

Re:DarthLion

[ErikZ]

Nonsense. How can Russia go to war with itself? ;)

Re:DarthLion

[dunkelfalke]

Wouldn't be the first time - USA vs Serbia, Israel vs Lebanon.

By the way, my ex-fiancee used to work at a McDonalds in Tbilisi. I am pretty sure that she is pissed now being in a warzone instead of safe and boring Germany. She can only blame herself, though.

Weak evidence

[wiIIyhiII]

Finally, according to this Twitter account of someone in Georgia (written in Russian), he claims that 'Russia has blocked access to Georgian websites from within Russia'"

If one of twitter's accounts is the source, it's safe to assume that the other bloggers are sockpuppets too. This whole story is unreliable. The Russian is also unsurprising, as most Linux zealots are hardcore Marxist-Leninists.

Re:Weak evidence

[wanderingknight]

The Russian is also unsurprising, as most Linux zealots are hardcore Marxist-Leninists.

Wow, you're just as much of an asshole as twitter himself.

Re:Weak evidence

[Anonymous Coward]

Hover your mouse over the name link of the post and you'll realize which asshole you're replying to.

Re:Weak evidence

[wanderingknight]

Oh God, I can't believe he's making even MORE fake sockpuppets. If I'm not mistaken he had wileyhill already, and now he's going as far as to exploit non-serif fonts... lol, what an idiot. And me for falling for it.

Poland is no small nation.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's one of the largest in Europe, actually. The rest of your comment is just as accurate...

Answers

[Anonymous Coward]

Quote from the website:

To this end we intend to urge our governments to take the following positions in discussions and to raise these concerns in the European Union and the North Atlantic Council:

- Can the current Russian authorities be called adequate strategic partners of the EU;

Sure, they can. We need their oil and gas, they need our money. Long term, big volume.

- Can the family of European democratic countries pursue a mutually beneficial dialogue with a country that uses heavy military armour against an independent country;

Obviously not. The family of European democratic countries must immediately cease all dialogue with the United States of America.

- It is pointless to continue a âoevisa facilitationâ program with a country that does not meet even the minimal requirements set by the EU and which uses visa facilitation to issue Russian Federation passports to foreigners and then abuses this EU given privilege to claim intervention rights such as "we are protecting Russian citizens" in South Ossetia.

No, it is not pointless at all. Western Europe needs more Russian tourists spending their money and Western Europe also needs its businesspeople to be able to travel to Russia more frequently for discussing stuff.

- The actions of the Russian Federation in Georgia should influence the talks with the Russian Federation, including negotiations on the new Partnership and Cooperation Agreement.

Of course. Now that the alternative routes of oil transport around Russia are in a war zone, the negotiations should be sped up ASAP.

Go Russia, savior of the weak

[Anonymous Coward]

Tell that to the people who used to be alive in these pictures

http://osinform.ru/foto/7343-zhertvy-obstrela-juzhnojj-osetii.html

1500 people died, out of 70,000 South Ossetians in a few days (in fact, the bulk in a few hours). That's genocide. This is after the Georgians declared a ceasefire.

Slashdot. Where the village idiot boasts about international relations

So soon we forget

[elrous0]

No way am I supporting those Georgians. May I remind my fellow Americans that a Georgian separatist once tried to kill the governor of California?

Bush Doctrine in Action - Russian Style!

[Anonymous Coward]

Bush Doctrine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_Doctrine

Excerpt
Later it came to include additional elements, including the controversial policy of preventive war, which held that the United States should depose foreign regimes that represented a threat to the security of the United States, even if that threat was not immediate (used to justify the invasion of Iraq), a policy of supporting democracy around the world, especially in the Middle East, as a strategy for combating the spread of terrorism, and a willingness to pursue U.S. military interests in a unilateral way.

Meanwhile, back in the USSR

[Anonymous Coward]

In Soviet Russia sudetenland claims YOU!!!

The new crop

[DaveAtFraud]

The new crop of Russian trolls on slashdot seems to be quite large and very vocal. I'm seeing a disproportionate number of posts attacking both Georgia and anyone who seems to support the Georgians. I have no idea if the Russians are really using the RBN to engage in cyberwar with Georgia as per the original article. A few posts note some legitimate reasons why various Georgian web sites are down or inaccessible. On the other hand, the number and vehemence of the pro-Russian posts even just here on slashdot is remarkable.

So, are the Russians attempting to influence public opinion around the world by astroturfing their side of the story anyplace they can post it? Sure looks like it. Lots of the pro-Russian posts have grammatical errors that indicate the English is not the first language of the poster (as opposed to the usual slashdot poster's bad grammar and spelling that just indicates how poorly these subjects are taught in U.S. schools).

Cheers,
Dave

Re:The new crop

[Hartree]

It's not just here on slashdot. I've seen it in the comments section of a number of news sites. The themes and phrasing of the posts are similar too. I think we're seeing a bit of "perception management" going on.

Re:The new crop

[32771]

Funny I just made two comments which could be construed as being pro Russian. Maybe I should check for which side I'm writing.

I wouldn't go as far as accusing foreign governments of messing with Slashdot. I suspect its just the usual patriots. This would be entirely sufficient for what you are seeing.

I'm sprinkling more articles in than some Russian posters but it might easily happen, that I take a not entirely western position just because I want to play the devils advocate and because there might be hypocrisy in our claims to moral superiority.

Let me remind you that you might easily get diverging opinions on an international site like Slashdot. I find it helpful in combating excessive black and white painting by our own PR. Whether it helps to get the truth out is another issue entirely.

For your entertainment here is a link about articles:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Article_(grammar)

Evidence

[ivlad]

Well, I cannot confirm, if in the past there were direct links between the Russian' Transtelecom (or Rostelecom, I'm not sure, which one provided the connection) and Georgian segment of internet, but even if they were shut, the connectivity is still available:

this one is from a Unix box hosted on the premises of a Russian hosting provider Agava

ivlad@iddater ~ 1004% tcptraceroute www.parliament.ge
Selected device eth0, address 89.108.83.67, port 59450 for outgoing packets
Tracing the path to www.parliament.ge (81.95.174.252) on TCP port 80 (www), 30 hops max
1 c3750-gw.agava.net (89.108.64.1) 21.758 ms 0.424 ms 0.644 ms
2 skymedia-po-gw.netflow.ru (88.212.194.49) 0.376 ms 0.324 ms 0.403 ms
3 bb-kiae1.2.netflow.ru (88.212.192.65) 0.297 ms 0.328 ms 0.255 ms
4 MSK15-GE11.496.transtelecom.net (217.150.45.186) 1.189 ms 1.175 ms 0.985 ms
5 * 195.66.224.185 61.393 ms 61.488 ms
6 te2-7.ccr02.ams03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.169) 75.530 ms 75.435 ms 75.456 ms
7 te2-7.ccr01.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.161) 76.914 ms 76.886 ms 76.900 ms
8 gi2-0-0.core01.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.29) 76.938 ms 76.790 ms 76.857 ms
9 turk-telecom.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.84.182) 132.477 ms 137.922 ms 136.579 ms
10 ulus_t1_1-ulus_ebgp_1.turktelekom.com.tr (212.156.119.241) 125.867 ms 125.779 ms 125.835 ms
11 * * *
12 195.175.5.2 145.380 ms 145.373 ms 145.259 ms
13 host-80-241-178-69.deltanet.ge (80.241.178.69) 145.551 ms 145.540 ms 145.563 ms
14 host-80-241-177-2.deltanet.ge (80.241.177.2) 145.773 ms 145.688 ms 146.318 ms
15 host-80-241-177-58.deltanet.ge (80.241.177.58) 145.932 ms 146.160 ms 146.408 ms
16 magti-gsm.ge (212.58.99.62) 102.633 ms 102.674 ms 102.696 ms
17 81.95.171.217 102.734 ms 102.205 ms 102.484 ms
18 81.95.174.100 104.032 ms 104.264 ms 104.010 ms
19 www.parliament.ge (81.95.174.252) [open] 104.046 ms 103.397 ms 103.236 ms
ivlad@iddater ~ 1005%

this one is from my home LAN:

nifty:ivlad $ traceroute www.parliament.ge
traceroute to spd.parliament.ge (81.95.174.252), 64 hops max, 40 byte packets
1 192.168.1.1 (192.168.1.1) 35.689 ms 2.223 ms 2.176 ms
2 192.168.254.254 (192.168.254.254) 5.787 ms 6.072 ms 5.282 ms
3 88.84.199.185 (88.84.199.185) 5.807 ms 4.920 ms 4.751 ms
4 10.10.156.21 (10.10.156.21) 7.500 ms 11.738 ms 7.654 ms
5 10.10.156.17 (10.10.156.17) 8.063 ms 10.136 ms 18.826 ms
6 80.252.130.5 (80.252.130.5) 21.015 ms 10.073 ms 12.090 ms
7 m9-bb-vlan515.msk.corbina.net (195.14.42.169) 53.656 ms 49.062 ms 55.743 ms
8 k9-bb-teng4-3.msk.corbina.net (195.14.60.129) 76.398 ms 57.992 ms 49.384 ms
9 ko-bb-teng12-1.msk.corbina.net (195.14.54.124) 64.689 ms 66.466 ms 68.705 ms
10 tc-bb-po1.sto.corbina.net (195.14.54.102) 68.070 ms 65.773 ms 76.414 ms
11 te3-3.ccr01.sto01.atlas.cogentco.com (149.6.168.93) 94.351 ms 107.097 ms *
12 te1-2.ccr01.mma01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.9) 88.611 ms te1-3.ccr01.ham01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.93) 103.790 ms te1-2.ccr01.mma01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.9) 98.152 ms
13 te3-3.ccr01.ham01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.205) 91.730 ms te2-2.ccr01.dus01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.210) 91.032 ms te1-2.ccr01.cph01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.49) 97.736 ms
14 te2-2.ccr01.dus01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.210) 100.163 ms gi5-0-0.core01.dus01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.125) 105.004 ms te7-2.mpd02.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.3.69) 88.775 ms
15 te8-2.mpd02.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.0.121) 100.849 ms turk-telecom.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.84.182) 221.007 ms 208.276 ms
16 ulus_t1_1-ulus_ebgp_1.turktelekom.com.tr (212.156.119.241) 174.456 ms turk-telecom.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.84.182) 362.090 ms po2-0.core01.dus01.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.189) 103.195 ms
17 turk-telecom.demarc.cogentco.com (149.6.84.182) 181.875 ms gi2-0-0.core01.fra03.atlas.cogentco.com (130.117.1.29) 90.115 ms ulus_t1_1-ulus_ebgp_1.turktelekom.com.tr (212

Georgia blank on Google Maps?

[The Mgt]

Anyone else seeing Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan as blank areas with no towns or roads in Google Maps? The change happened sometime in the last few hours.

Re:Georgia blank on Google Maps?

[Anonymous Coward]

mee tooo.. hmm wierd.

Re:Georgia blank on Google Maps?

[Aramgutang]

Anyone else seeing Georgia, Armenia and Azerbaijan as blank areas with no towns or roads in Google Maps? The change happened sometime in the last few hours.

Umm...WRONG!

As someone who was born and raised in Armenia and often visits Google Maps to see if the map data or satellite imagery has been updated, I can definitively say that throughout the entire existence of Google Maps, all three Transcaucasian republics have always been blank with no road and city data.

Re:Georgia blank on Google Maps?

[The Mgt]

Yes, I've realised since. Should have engaged my brain before posting.
I can't think of what I was looking at then. It looked like Google Maps embedded in some blog or news site.
I wonder why it's blank then?

Re:Georgia blank on Google Maps?

[The Mgt]

Maybe I'm not imagining it after all. There's a thread on Reddit with a few posters claiming that it wasn't blank before. No screenshots though.

I believe it is happening...

[GregNorc]

What I wonder is if this is sponsored by the Russian government, or simply a bunch of nationalist hackers. Somehow I think the Russians have more pressing military objectives than taking down the "personal website" of Gerogia's president. Wouldn't a military attack focus on logistical systems rather than propaganda targets?

what kind of tinfoil

[Anonymous Coward]

What kind of tinfoil mickey are you trying slip in my drink?

Grenada, blanks, ham operator, WTF? citation or door.

Re:what kind of tinfoil

[DynaSoar]

What kind of tinfoil mickey are you trying slip in my drink?

Grenada, blanks, ham operator, WTF? citation or door.

CBS news broadcast footage, 25 October 1983, compare early and late night versions. The early version included a voice over of the radio operator. But both showed the same insanely ridiculous staged "rescue" tactic of having the St. George's students running crouched beneath a line of M-16s being fired by members of the 22nd Marine Amphibs. You can corroborate by looking for the reports of the SEAL team that secured "Radio Free Grenada", and compare when that was supposed to have occurred compared to when that station went off the air, also compared with other hams' CQ logs showing LOS from an operator on Grenada.

If you'd like to do your own homework to get the aluminum taste out of your mouth, try to come up with a logical reason why the US Marine unit mobilized to replace those killed in the Beirut barracks bombing were diverted en route to "save" students at an off-shore medical school instead of reinforcing the part of the US presence lost in the bombing. To give you a head start, conceive of a form of presentation between fiction and documentary and then watch "Wag The Dog".

I'd also suggest you read Paul Linebarger's "Psychological Warfare", but I know you'll no more do that than you will attempt to follow up on the other stuff.

Russians cyberwarfare? How is it that

[dusanv]

the Russian state news agency (RIA Novosti) web site is out since this morning? Their two DNS servers (her.rinet.ru, her.rian.ru) seem to have dropped off the face of the earth. Seems someone is might be engaged in cyberwarfare against them, doesn't it?

South Ossetian leaders

[shutdown -p now]

Here are the names and previous positions of some of the high-ranking South Ossetian government officials:

• Anatoly Baranov, head of Ossetian KGB (yes, they kept the name) - previously a head of regional FSB in Mordovia
• Mikhail Mindzaev, minister of internal affairs (MVD) - previously held the same position in North Ossetia
• Vasily Lunev, minister of defence - ex-military commissar of Perm oblast.

Make what you will out of it...

War on Estonia?

[saikou]

You certainly remember that "Russian attack" on Estonia turned out to be not related to Russian government at all, right?
So, I agree. Just like with Estonia here we probably have other things happening -- overloaded lines, servers crashing under the load, and so on.
By default in large enough country there will be enough people who will do something bad out of "patriotism".
Blaming "big bad government" for something like that is a good way to play up victim status ("we didn't do anything (except, probably, started a war because we wanted to re-take the breakaway area) and this evil Russia sacked hackers on our servers! Oh horrors!") with no real way to disprove it.
Only after all of the simpliest explanations are ruled out I will believe in something a conspiracy nut would propose :)

Re:The Russians hit the truth. - BULL SHIT !!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

PEOPLE! If you still can THINK by yourself - just try to do it now!
Why are you watching ONLY "ONE-SIDED" information from CNN and others news channals???
Just look at chronology of this events!!!
1) GEORGIAN forces ATTACKED Tshinvaly first and DESTROYED this city!!! It was 07/08/08 - before russians could make anything!!!
2) Now there is MORE than 2000 citizens KILLED by georgians!!!
3) Why georguan tanks entered South osetia 07/08/08 and fired at russian peacemakers???
Because its a provocation and GENOCIDE of osetians!!!
Just look at HISTORY BOOK or Enciclopedia! in South Osetia MORE than 2/3 of population are russians! Thats why Son of the Bitch SAAKASHVILLY so easy used HEAVY ARTILLERY to destroy Tshinvaly and several small towns...

If you prefere to be BLIND - just eat all that shit of your official news. But BETTER ASK OSETIANS AND OTHER GEORGIAN`s NEIGHBOURS! WHY THEY ARE READY TO WAR AGAINST GEORGIA? Because GEORGIA IS FOUL AGRESSOR!!! They are licking any ass to join NATO - just to gain "a big brothers" alliance. But its THE WAY TO NOWHERE! All nations of Caucasus will fight Georgia if it`ll not stop!
DO NOT LET them DRAW your countries into this fucking georgian game!!!
Georgia HAS NO chances to get any acceptable ending of this game. Because Georgian killed too many people, their neighbours. So they NEVER will have any warm relations with Georgia...

What YOU will say if your nearest country destroy several towns on your territory and kill 2000 people (in one night)? And later, when your ally try to help you and resist agressor all massmedia begin to SCREAM about YOUR blame and your ally??? They STAND THINGS UPSIDE DOWN!!!!

Fucking PURCHASED newsmakerk!
I`m ashamed for you!!!

MOD PARENT UP:There are no good guys in this war.

[Alaska Jack]

No disrespect, Tetromino, but you're wwwayyy wrong on this, and the AC is right. Russia is sending a quite clear signal to NATO: NATO would be crazy to allow Georgia in, for the quite simple reason that NATO doesn't want to be drawn into a war in Asia -- Russia's "home court" -- on behalf of Georgia.

Naturally, Russia is not eager to get in a tussle with NATO either. So hmm, what's the ideal solution? Hey, I know -- invade Georgia *before* they join NATO!

Think about it. You're suggesting that the Georgians thought it would be a good idea to be INVADED by a much, much, much bigger, more powerful and more autocratic neighbor. That defies belief. Being INVADED is NEVER the "least bad" option. You lose a war, and bang, that's it: Game Over.

    - Alaska Jack

PS Of course, the proof is in the pudding: After this, I guarantee you're not going to be seeing NATO admitting Georgia anytime soon.

Twitter - English

[geeky grrly]

The owner of the Twitter account is also publishing in English: http://twitter.com/wardirect_en

End of Saakashvilli

[Anonymous Coward]

Saakashvilli is not very popular in Georgia. He is not like Yuschenko (US backed Ukrainian president) at all. I will not be surprised if US is trying to get rid of him with Russian help.

Georgia is now in huge economic decline. If Saakashvilli stays in power any longer, angry Georgians will overthrow him and there will be second Iran.

Russia will probably accuse him of war crimes.

I personally hate war. Diplomatic or peaceful solution is always the best one. My home country is located near Russia. I hope there will be no Georgia-like invasion because civilians always die during operations like this one.

Georgia doing it's part too

[Anonymous Coward]

According to bloggers from there and their family in russia ( there's a lot of georgian living and working in russia ), the Georgian governement have blocked access to all russian website, as well as dissenters and separatist website. Oh, and declaring martial to arrest protesters oh their invasion. They really sound like nice folks, did you saw those mass bombardment oh the separatist capital with rocket artillery on the news? Nothing say "We love freedom" like blasting whole families to pieces!

This is awesome.

[Armageddon00]

Dude, I'm psyched. For years the bigger, smarter, better guys have been taking over the weaker, smaller guys. It's like evolution of nations. Now we can do this without killing people thanks to cyberwarfare. This is gonna be fuckin' awesome.

Volunteerism in Wartime

[Selfunfocused]

Now that countries have to consider the internet as a potential front during wartime, the actions of citizen hackers become particularly interesting. I'm going to assume that the Russian government has control over the majority of the attacks against Georgia's sites. At the same time, it's not hard to imagine a few nationalist Russian hackers deciding to "help a brother out" by applying their skills. What does this mean in terms of international law? Are these guys enemy combatants? I find it interesting that some young guy has the option to join in his country's fight without leaving his parent's basement.

View from Moscow

[Yomers]

I'm Russian and in Moscow now, I also have some Georgian ancestry and I've been in Georgia and really like this country and people. I'm on large government owned ISP and I have no problems reaching .ge sites, same ISP providing me with digital TV, with CNN and BBC news amongst the channels. I mast say I see much more viewer manipulating on CNN than on russian news channels, I might suggest http://www.russiatoday.ru/ as information source, if anybody is interested in whats going on there. Every news channel is trying to show the facts in some light, but CNN just shows only the facts they need, CNN is a serious brainwash. I'm living in Russia for like a month in a year, traveling other 11 months, so don't call me brainwashed by Russian TV - I'm getting my news from very different sources.

I've seen on Russian TV that Georgia blocked access to .ru domains and blocked all Russian channels, not sure if it's indeed true, any people from Georgia here can clarify this?

For me (and I beleive many Russians feel the same) it's a sad turn of events indeed, because historically we always were friends, Georgia was in Russian empire then in USSR for like more than 200 years, and it was not joined by force, but because we are same faith, and Russia protected Georgia from Pessians and Turks. Georgians took a part in what is now Russian and USSR history, Georgians can be proud or ashamed of that history no less then Russians - many prominent people were Georgians, Stalin is the most known. And now Georgia have crazy pseudo democratic president Saakashvili, clearly installed there and ruled from US, who is confronting Russia in all possible ways!

Re:MOD PARENT UP:There are no good guys in this wa

[tetromino]

Georgia's gamble was that whatever the outcome of the war in Ossetia, the border issue would finally get settled. At that point, there would be no more legal justifications for Germany to keep Georgia out of NATO. And once Georgia is in NATO, Russia would think twice before invading.

Really, think, what were the possible outcomes from Georgia's decision to invade Ossetia on August 7?

1. Most probable - everything goes according to plan. Georgian blitzkrieg succeeds, Ossetia surrenders within 1-2 days. Russia perhaps wants to intervene, but can't gets its troops into place fast enough to make any difference. Abkhazia caves in after seeing the might of Georgian arms and the Ossetian civilians massacred in Tskhinvali. Georgia regains its rebellious provinces and joins NATO.

2. Less probable - Russia manages to mobilize some of its forces in time, intervenes, and takes over South Ossetia. Georgia loses the war, Russia loses whatever it has left of its reputation. In the peace talks, the status of South Ossetia and Abkhazia is finally settled - either as independent nations, parts of Russia, or parts of a federal Georgia. Either way, Georgia's borders are no longer in doubt, and it can finally join NATO and the Western world.

3. Even less probable - Russia does not intervene, but the Ossetians successfully resist the invasion on their own; the result is a long, bloody mountain war. Thanks to Georgia's overwhelming advantage in manpower and technology (Georgia has been spending over 10% of its GDP on its armed forces), this scenario appeared to be quite improbable.

4. Nearly impossible - Russia intervenes, and goes on to conquer all of Georgia. This scenario would be quite unlikely because a. Georgia is economically worthless to Russia, and the occupation would inevitably result in a very long, bloody and expensive guerilla war (something that Russia has experienced in Afghanistan and Chechnya, and doesn't want to repeat); and b. the international community would not allow Russia to actually annex one of its neighbors. At the very least, Russia will face crippling trade sanctions from its most important foreign trading partners.

As you can see, the most probable outcomes are, in the long run, advantageous to Georgia and disadvantageous to RUssia.

wait, they are in nato

[Ghaan]

But Czech Rep, Poland, Slovakia, Bulgaria and Romania are already NATO members!

Someone fights for independence, someone just brings democracy - all the conflicts are always the same and always bad when the big guys decide it's time to do something about it - unfortunately, the civil population is always in the middle.

Re:wait, they are in nato

[theshowmecanuck]

I must admit... I was trolling. grrrr :-)

geez...

[TheEden]

So here I am, russian in russia, posting on /. From news@tv I`ve heard that russia *never* invaided georgia itself, only protected russian civilians in south osetia. And yes, reinforcemets were sent there since our peacekeeping forces were greatly outnumbered. Then I took a look at what CNN says: "Russia targets & bombs civilians" and then bbc "100% unprovoked brutal invasion" What a shock... Whom should I thust? wtf is goin on?

bjugle

[Anonymous Coward]

I find it a little odd that USA are speaking up against the Russian "aggressor" without seeing the parallell to themselves. If Russia are invading Georgia because of the oil (land grab) and they use some of the some sort of dumb umbrella reason to justefy it you could say that they are just copying the invasion of Iraq.
The Americans should have seen this comming really. If USA can invade another nation and break international law whenever they please, international law will loose its authority. In other words; when USA can invade another nation wihout the approval of the UN security council, why cant Russia do the same thing?
That being said - I hope that the conflict ends soon and peacefully.

russian tradition of desinformation (a book)

[piotru]

I recommend a splendid book about the history of desinformation by the russian state, written by insider, Anatoliy Golitsyn: "New Lies for Old"
http://www.amazon.com/New-Lies-Old-Anatoliy-Golitsyn/dp/0945001134

Inside the book you'll find why I wrote "russian", not "soviet"...

Re:MOD PARENT UP:There are no good guys in this wa

[BillyGee]

Except that you're again making the mistake of thinking of Russia as reasonable. With the events of today, it seems pretty clear Russia is determine to annihilate Georgia. First they outright a peace treaty and now they've actually invaded. http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7554507.stm Let this be a lesson to whoever still thinks russians are to be trusted. As of two days ago, the russian government fully insisted it has no plans to enter Georgian territory. Nevermind that they have now begun to threaten other bordering countries - russia's ambassador to Latvia officially warned the Latvian government from even making remarks supporting Georgia, saying that will have "dire and permanent consequences".

My word...

[omuls are tasty]

...Russians are resorting to cyber warfare now? I'm shocked. Maybe the should get some lessons from the US on how to stop the information flow.

I can't find any information on whether Georgian govermnent is using similar measures? Can anyone confirm if Russian web sites accessible from within Georgia? If not, does the goverment even view the percentage of people connected to the Internet in Georgia significant enough in forming public opinion at all? Seeing that the GDP per capita is around $4,700 and that the montly ADSL tariffs I can dig up on Google are around $50, I'm not sure.

Folks, it's war. People are suffering there. Russian Big Oil vs. American Big Oil (yay, this is bound to get me modded up on /.). Pipelines. World domination strategies. Whichever way it turns out, average Georgians and Ossetians are going to end up f**** over. My sympathy goes out to them. War should be outlawed.

Help defend Georgia?

[w1z4rd]

If you are anything like me (IE, you believe you have a good grasp on the politics, the history and the issues with the current Russian government) you must be just as pissed off as me.

I really am upset about how the (FSB controlled) Russian government is acting. However, in this case, perhaps there is something those people outside of the conflict zone can do.

The rest of the cyberworld can protest again Russia by overloading the Russian Business Network.

It would be a whole new and interesting concept. An online world war? :)

Yeah, so Russia...

[jambox]

Well overall they're very mature and intellectual. I like them. But the current government is a little bit too good at playing the "Crazy Ivan" bit for comfort. Putin has more or less co-opted power by rigging an election and we all know where that sort of stuff ends up. What would happen if they did menace Ukraine? Maybe we'd start to give them money to keep them quiet. Maybe they'd just help themselves to Azerbaijan or Estonia in the meantime. You know, a bit of "breathing space". BANG - next thing you know, the French have surrendered, the Italians have changed sides and we're sat in the back of a lorry wearing helmets and holding rifles.

Giorgi S.

[Anonymous Coward]

Estonia sending cyber defense experts to Georgia:
http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/30935

Warfare in general...

[Schmyz]

... isnt the first goal in warefare to leave your enemy blind and confused?????

There is no evidence, please check your sources...

[isecure]

It is evident that there is no direct evidence of Russian hackers, or Russian government attacking Georgian website. According to the latest information by posted by ShadowServer.org of Tuesday, 12 August 2008 titled "Georgian Websites Under Attack - Don't Believe the Hype", specifically refers to the fact that there is no proof that above mentioned organization are in fact responsible to the attacks. According to ShadowServer.org, the attacked sites fall under the following categories: * Adult video websites * Prostitution websites * White supremacy websites * Carder websites (sites that trade in stolen credit card numbers) * Online gambling websites * Virtual currency websites (think PayPal, but not nearly that legitimate) * Russian news websites * Random Russian websites * Many other websites Another speculation is that RBN is somehow involved in DDoS attacks. Nobody has a proof of that either.