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Lenovo Requires NDA For Windows License Refund
tykev writes "A customer wanted to return the license for preinstalled Windows Vista Business that came with his Lenovo laptop. After some lengthy negotiations with representatives of Lenovo's technical support and management, he was offered financial compensation for returning the license in the amount of CZK 1950 (USD 130, EUR 78), pending his acceptance of a non-disclosure agreement that would cover the entire negotiations with the company and its results. He declined and published his experiences on a Czech Linux website. The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Vista is pants
...which didn't even seem that implausible at the time.
If he's from Czech does he have a mate?
So now we know the minimum we should accept. Time to start negotiating upwards to see what other numbers can be achieved.
That is probably the most effective way to start companies shipping hardware only or Linux pre-installed as the negotiation process will cost money. If 1,000 people went through this process with Lenovo (or Dell, or HP, etc) then we would probably see more progress than 5 years of bitching has managed to achieve.
Kudos to the guy
An Eye for an Eye will make the whole world blind - Gandhi
I especially liked this bit
Sleny operátorky na lince Lenovo byly velice milé. Po vyslechnutí mého poadavku m chtly odmítnout, ale poté, co jsem odcitoval píslunou ást licence, si vyádaly pár dní na zjitní aktuálního stavu od vedení firmy. Tím jsem se viditeln dostal o úrove vý, nebo nyní následovalo kolo telefonních rozhovor.
I dont know what it means but I like it. I think.
Do not try to read the dupe, thats impossible. Instead, only try to realize the truth
What truth?
There is no dupe
There go Lenovo's chances on my next laptop purchase.
"My opinions are my own, and I've got *lots* of them!"
...Everyone knows you make them sign the agreement *before* making an offer!
The CB App. What's your 20?
Where does the desire for the NDA come from and why?
Is it Lenovo? If so, is it some sort of routine ass-covering procedure that doesn't make all that much sense? Or is it something that applies to all "there is a not too well known way to get some money from us, we'll do it; but don't popularize it" situations?
Is it Microsoft? They have been historically tight lipped about their OEM agreements and prices, are they attempting to discourage indirect indicators like this one?
I wonder why on a Czech web portal, that one news article was in English. I did a little looking around trying to see if I could find any other pages in English but that was the only one. It was also the only one that had a /. submit script on it. Even the Czech version of the story did not have the script.
Insert Generic Sig Here:
Before anyone goes blathering on about "ufair" this and "innacurate" that, follow my test.
1. Visit Dell.com on two different browser tabs.
2. Tab #1 starts here.http://www.dell.com/content/topics/segtopic.aspx/linux_3x?c=us&cs=19&l=en&s=dhs
3. Tab #2 starts here. http://www.dell.com/content/products/productdetails.aspx/xpsnb_m1330?c=us&l=en&s=dhs&cs=19
4. Configure the Vista product with the ultimate version. That is roughly feature equivalent to Ubuntu.
5. Pay attention to the hardware options because the Linux product has fewer and generally more storage/RAM.
6. At the end, you should have a spread of about $349.
So, Vista costs the consumer $349 OEM through the consumer URL.
http://www.maxineudall.com/2010/02/should-economists-be-sued-for-malpractice.html
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
If it were me, and they attempted to hit me with a NDA prior to the process, I'd take them to court. Any NDA they have with microsoft is between them and microsoft. I should not be forced to accept it just to receive the LEGALLY ENTITLED REFUND I'm due. If microsoft is engaging in some sort of shady pricing schemes between it's various suppliers, that's THEIR problem, not mine.
Meanwhile, Microsoft still got paid for a product that was completely unwanted and unused. This is a great example of the Microsoft Tax in action. Even when their new operating system is a disaster and people refuse to use it, they still get paid, purely on the basis of their market position. This is the kind of reason why Microsoft should be subject to antitrust laws. Normal market forces just don't apply to them.
Bogtha Bogtha Bogtha
The EULA does not specify it is not. Lenovo, as would any reasonable business, saw this as a legal transaction with an unfamiliar party. Asking them to sign an NDA is not unreasonable. The customer could have done a simple web search and found that people have had a higher success rate going straight to MS. As I did, and found it to be a relatively simple process.
Instead of going through Lenovo, I filed a complaint with my state's AG office. I wasn't lookin' for a refund, rather physical media in case the hard drive were to fail and I could no longer use the "restore partition."
Couple weeks after my complaint is filed, I get an e-mail from Lenovo asking for my model/serial number so they can send me a disk. BUT I bought an IdeaPad which they don't have disks for.
I was like "What the? Party foul." and now they're letting me return the IdeaPad sans restock fee so I can purchase a Thinkpad.
No sig for you!!
going straight to MS
Which, incidentally, he should still be able to do, since he has not given up his license at this time. $260 is a lot better than $130. :D
Layne
Why the hell is a NDA agreement required anyway? This is for a refund on a specific part of the total price. The price of Vista. Requiring a NDA for this is stupid unless you're trying to give as little away as possible - but wouldn't/shouldn't that be illegal? :P The cost of Windows on it is not subjective, it's concrete.
I think you'll find the price of vista varies quite a bit depending on who you are. A large OEM like lenovo is going to pay less than the average joe buying a box off the shelf. If you're, say, a public school system who's put some thought into switching to linux, you'll probably pay even less.
Give me Classic Slashdot or give me death!
Man wants his money back for a license he did not want from a PC purchase.
Microsoft says: "Sure but you keep your fscking mouth shut when we do this"
Guy said "Eat a box of shnausages"
Guy publishes an article about his experience, gets the money anyway but not from Microsoft. /I think?
The greatest revenge in life is massive success.
The website editors decided to reward the customer for publishing the article by paying him an author's royalty in the same amount as was the offered compensation for returning the license."
Lenovo tried to cancel the Czech. Did the editors pay the Czech with a check? I guess I should TRFM and Czech it out.
"He's lost in a 'floyd hole"
We'll have these Sweded by tomorrow, no problem.
No, but the OEM's agreement with MS does. MS has confirmed multiple times that customers are eligible for a refund of the cost of Windows if they aren't going to use it.
Replace "Microsoft" with "Lenovo" and your summary of the summary is correct.
To my company, the best Lenovo could manage was a "If you bulk purchase 100 laptops of the same type we can negotiate downgrading them to Vista Home, but we will not refund the license.", after about a dozen e-mails.
Dell, on the other hand, refunds licenses after just two minutes on the phone.
Disclaimer: I've been trying to purchase brand-name laptops without an operating system for more than eight years now. Recently I've signed up as reseller for several big laptop manufacturers, who will remain anonymous. It's still impossible to get even a single one of them to accept the EULA and refund licenses to my customers. Also, the EULA says that my company would have to refund my customer, but none of the manufacturers so far gave me a way to get my money back from them. So if you're wondering why every store tells you that refunds don't exist, this might be it.
If you want to sell brand-name stuff without OS, the only choice you have is to contact another reseller who is a key account with the big guys. These resellers can sometimes get you built-to-order machines. Those, on the other hand, are often more expensive than a similar stock machine WITH Vista Pro, so if you think your customers are saving any money there, think again. All you get is the added inconvenience of waiting for the BTO.
If the manufacturers would at least honor the EULA, I could buy those machines with Windows and return the licenses myself, passing the savings on the customer. Since they don't, I can't even do that.
Man buys a laptop from Leno.
Laptop comes with Windows Viagra.
Man insists he doesn't need Viagra, insists on money back.
Chinese authorities confused as to how a man can perform without it, ask for a copy of his DNA.
The Chinese insist that the man keep quiet:
Bootleg copy of Windows (the screen of death is red).
Laptop also contains birth records of the Chinese gymnastic team.
(OK, I admit, I made this part up, but it makes the story better.)
Man publishes his story on web.
Profit!
Someone said translation is like a woman:
If she is beautiful, she is not faithful.
If she is faithful, she is not beautiful.
Thurber said, in response to someone who said his stuff was great in French: Yes, my works lose something in the original.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/england/shropshire/7585098.stm
"A man who chose "Lloyds is pants" as his telephone banking password said he found it had been changed by a member of staff to "no it's not"."
""But what really incensed me was when I was told I could not change it back to 'Lloyds is pants' because they said it was not appropriate.
"I asked if it was 'pants' they didn't like, and would 'Lloyds is rubbish' do? But they didn't think so.
"So I tried 'Barclays is better' and that didn't go down too well either.
"The rules seemed to change, and they told me it had to be one word, so I tried 'censorship', but they didn't like that, and then said it had to be no more than six letters long." "
----
So, this is my position/question:
Why the HELL was a low-level functionary employee able to "see" the true password of a customer? The frackin password should have been a reduced or hashed form so that even if an IT person can copy and paste it in a local system, they could not know the contents and be able to type it in at a point of sales station or an ATM, or on any sites that reject copy-paste-in passwords...
Previously: "Linux... Toward the Sunrise..." Now: "Linux... Toward the-- No, now, part of Every Sunrise"
I'm surprised they've not changed their EULA yet to eliminate this whole refund bit.
Because they can't. The (dodgy) legal ground EULAs stand on relies on the users acceptance of the terms and conditions, if they don't offer a refund for people who don't accept then they've sold a defective product.
No. They offered him what he asked for, with conditions. He did not ask for those conditions.
Sounds like they were rather distasteful to him. As they should be. The loss of ones freedom of speech should NEVER be a condition to anything.
NDAs are counterproductive. Learn how to discern people that you can trust and you shouldn't have to rely on them.
I for one, will NEVER sign one, regardless of context. I view them as unconstitutional. Simple as that.
Bank staff sign all kinds of secrecy legislation that applies to the industry and this can land them in jail for many years if they tried doing what you suggest.
Debian FTW