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Designing Difficulty Options In Games

Gamasutra is running a story about how the "hard" modes in games can be designed to include difficulty, but not frustration. They give some examples of the changes made to several games as their difficulty settings are increased, and they discuss some of the simple options, such as increasing the number of required button presses, or increasing the relevant numbers by an arbitrary amount (a boss on easy may hit you for 10 damage, whereas a boss on hard may act the same but hit you for 100 damage). They also talk about maintaining the "illusion of fairness." Quoting: "Bungie's Halo series is often praised for its excellent execution of difficult play in the form of its Legendary mode. Not surprisingly, the team took a very well-thought out approach to introducing and tuning difficult play. Halo 3 gameplay designer Francois Boucher-Genesse explains that it's not just a case of one formula fits all. 'It's not like we just cranked every enemy's health by 200% and called it Legendary,' he said. 'There was a good amount of custom changes made per mission as well. In that sense we encourage players with previous Halo experience to play at least on Heroic, since they get to see the game in its full scale.'"

110 comments

  1. That's Easy! by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Just follow the id method. Build a nightmare difficultly level into the game but also include God mode.

    1. Re:That's Easy! by Disseminated · · Score: 1

      God mode doesn't work in Nightmare. ;-}

    2. Re:That's Easy! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 2, Interesting

      I absolutely love setting the highest difficulty as a challenge for games.

      One of the most brilliant "hardest" settings was in Thief, where in the hardest setting, you were not allowed to kill anybody. Hence the whole game became a puzzle of sneaking, with no more than blackjacking someone.

      Countless times I heard someone talk about how good they got with the sword in Thief, but I always wondered what the point of that was. If I wanted melee action I'd play some other game.

      Accomplishments on Hardest, Never Looking Up Solutions Online

      • Duke Nukem (2nd hardest setting -- hardest was with respawn, designed for multiplayer action)
      • Icewind Dale II on Heart of Fury mode, with 2 true level 1 characters, no imported items.
        Realized this could probably be done with 1 fighter, though I didn't try it. And no, I'm not lying. You didn't think the bards wrote tales about your pathetic adventures, did you?
      • Serious Sam on Serious, but certain times ammo would run short and the only option was to rocket jump somewhere mildly safe and slowly pick off people with your magical recharging revolvers or whatever it was.
      • Quake, 2 Expansion Packs, Quake II, etc., on Nightmare. This includes finding the Nightmare settings mechanism, done cleverly and in-game.
      • Duplicated the 30s Lava God quick run in Quake, but with an embarassingly slow 36 second time.
      • All 120 or 125 levels of original Lemmings without looking up any answers. Got interested because a "high-Q" colleague couldn't solve one of the levels. Included hacking it myself to get around the shareware limit on 5 game starts. Ahh, puzzles.
      • Both KoToR games. Of course, "hard" is a joke on those games, with the exception of the boss encounters. (Try going to Korriban immediately after training to be a Jedi in the first one, then getting by Calo.) Set a goal of trying to make these encounters as easy as possible while soloing whenever not required by the story to take someone along. Final runthroughs involved manhandling Calo at both encounters as well as utter devastation of all other boss encounters, and taking 18 levels of Jedi (which meant getting to Dantooine by only leveling to level 2, which is required to leave the damaged ship in the beginning.) For KoToR II, I eventually manhandled the undead guy in the Korriban encounter (such that Kreia "saving" you by psychically telling you to flee seemed idiotic) and was able to 2-shot, but not quite 1-shot, the undead guy in the second, endgame encounter, indefinitely. So I could have, in fact, stood there fighting him forever. In theory I could have one-shot him had all the rolls hit superbly, but that never actually happened.
      • Starcraft -- Another game where "hard" wasn't really that hard. But I like to point out that Tassadar was an idiot for feeling he had to sacrifice himself. I had the brain well under control, thxbie.
      • Total Annihilation -- Meteor level, need I say more. Geeze.

      And some (partial) failures

      • Kingpin on "Real" mode -- More of a novelty, if you got shot or clubbed, you pretty much died, as you should. Tough to make it past the first guy with a club since you didn't have your gun yet, and the AI, built on hitting you a number of times before you died, getting you very quickly. Never made it past the first level.
      • Warcraft III -- Not a failure per se -- I made it 2/3 the way through the second act before quitting out of raw hatred for the way they made it more difficult. For example, your towers couldn't out-shoot the meatwagons, hence you always had to send out a party to intercept them. I only found one spot on one map where I could place a tower at an elevation so high that it outshot a meatwagon, and it felt as if the devs had missed that spot. :( Still, I managed to survive and get all the optional goals up to that point (an additional restriction I put on myself) including the "save the offshoot village way in the north" in the "you're bei
      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  2. Maybe about the curve? by nine-times · · Score: 4, Interesting

    My biggest gripe with game difficulty that comes to mind is when I feel like it's making the whole thing hard for the sake of being hard. Guitar Hero 3 comes to mind. It's like they're assuming you've played the other Guitar Hero games, were good at them, and only bought the new one because you wanted a bigger challenge. Some of the Tony Hawk games have the same problem, so it's probably those developers.

    I can understand wanting a challenge, so I don't think there's anything wrong with it. But the problem manifests itself by having the difficulty curve all wonky. You can be very good at Easy, and still not be able to complete relatively simple songs on Medium. Same with Medium->Hard, and Hard->Expert. Rock Band, on the other hand, can also be pretty challenging, but the curve is more gradual, so IMO it works better. It's clear the developers were focused more on having the game be fun for all levels of expertise, rather than making a good challenge that only hardcore fans will appreciate.

    I think this applies for pretty much all games, across genres. Guitar Hero was just what came to mind. Ideally anyone should be able to play, but it should be more *fun* to play harder difficulties if your better at the game.

    1. Re:Maybe about the curve? by BPPG · · Score: 1

      I know that for Rock Band at least, each song is given it's own general difficulty rating as well as a per-instrument difficulty. For example, "Number of the Beast" is supposed to be one of the most difficult guitar pieces, but it's quite reasonable for a drummer on the same level.

      That being said, it's still not a difficulty system that works for everyone, it's targeted towards the hardcore players of that particular game.

      --
      What's the value of information that you don't know?
    2. Re:Maybe about the curve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 1, Insightful

      It is more fun on expert, maybe you just aren't better enough to appreciate it.

      Why would it be fun if easy > medium was just more of the same, going up in difficulty should make you have to think different and figure out different techniques.

      How would being very good at easy at all prepare you for something too difficult for you? Mastering easy just stunts your skills and makes doing the wrong thing for Expert a reflex, you have to keep pushing your limits in order to improve.

    3. Re:Maybe about the curve? by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Take guitar hero 3. I can finish most of the songs on medium with little or no mistakes. I can't even finish songs on hard. There isn't much in between.

    4. Re:Maybe about the curve? by kahanamoku · · Score: 0, Flamebait

      There is a practice mode to help you learn the fingering and sequences. perhaps you need to actually do some "Practice", or do you just expect that you can rock out on a harder mode because you are perfect at a simple mode?

      --
      ----- Concentrate on promoting more than demoting.
    5. Re:Maybe about the curve? by geminidomino · · Score: 4, Interesting

      There is a practice mode to help you learn the fingering and sequences. perhaps you need to actually do some "Practice", or do you just expect that you can rock out on a harder mode because you are perfect at a simple mode?

      That would be the wonky learning curve being referred to, yes. If you can get 99-100% on Freebird, Misirilou, and Psychobilly Freakout on Medium, but can't even beat "Mother" on Hard, what you have is a gap where the game rejects "difficulty" for "frustration", and if you're not "hardcore", you just don't want to play anymore.

      You gotta have a carrot.

    6. Re:Maybe about the curve? by hibiki_r · · Score: 1

      That's a known problem in Guitar Hero 3. The jump from the top of medium to the beginning of hard is just way too steep. That was not an issue in guitar hero I and II.

      My recommendation? move to hard Bass. Bass is much easier than guitar, and you'll get used to the orange button slowly. That should make hard doable.

      Or you could play rock band, which doesn't have the problem at all.

    7. Re:Maybe about the curve? by tukkayoot · · Score: 1

      The learning curve could be smoothed out a bit. I think there's a reason why it's like this though: multiplayer/newbies. They made it so someone who's just started playing the game can have a reasonable shot at playing the entire set list, instead of the first 10 songs or so, that way the host doesn't get completely sick of hearing guests play the same songs over and over, and the guests are more likely to find something that appeals to them (which in turn makes them more likely to go out and buy the game for themselves).

      There's no way to make the introduction of the 5th fret completely trivial, which is the main step-up in difficult to Hard. I think Mother is actually a reasonably gentle introduction though, since it's very repetitive, has some pretty simple and reasonably paced scales, and there are long notes that you don't have to hold the whole time to get credit for hitting (which gives you some time to reposition your hand), and the star power flows pretty freely. It took me about an hour to get through my first time, and I didn't get anywhere near 99-100% on Freebird on Medium.

      Keep at it though, the game gets much more fun once you become accustomed to the 5th fret and begin to get the hang of hammer-ons and pull-offs.

    8. Re:Maybe about the curve? by Mobkey · · Score: 1

      I beat GH2 on Hard, got most of the way through on Expert and I was satisfied with that. In GH3 I think I got stuck on the last set on Hard and maybe 3rd last on Expert. Then it just wasn't fun. So I stopped playing, didn't spend hours in practice mode. I think you're missing the point of hard for the sake of being hard, and hard because it's more challenging and rewarding. Same thing happened to me in Halo 3, but I pretty much bumped it down just because I wanted to get it over with.

    9. Re:Maybe about the curve? by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Agreed on orange. less than 10 mm distance causes such pain. By the time you've finished medium, you should have a decent grasp of HO/POs but throwing the orange at you AND ramping up the speed is a little much for the first tier or two.

      GH 1 was bad that way too. Still remember getting 4 stars on "I love Rock and Roll" and "Mother" and feeling proud of myself. Two hours later I was still on 4 stars and gave both games to my GF on "extended loan" mostly because I never wanted to see them again. =P

    10. Re:Maybe about the curve? by jonaskoelker · · Score: 2, Interesting

      It's like they're assuming you've played the other Guitar Hero games, were good at them, and only bought the new one because you wanted a bigger challenge.

      I fail to recognize this. Let me first admit, though, that I have played other GH games very little. Three Aerosmith songs in my local EB, one or two songs from GH2 on easy, tier 1. My experience with GH3 is also incomplete: I've 5-starred easy (and, IIRC, medium), and completed ~10 songs on hard. A handful of FCs on easy too.

      My experience is that the difficulty rises slowly within each difficulty level, with a few harder-than-normal boss fights in the mix, and then jerks upward when you go to the next difficulty level; the jerk is enough that you note it's significantly more difficult, but not enough to be impossible.

      It'll be fun to see whether the difficulty increase between tiers is more pronounced on hard and expert.

      making a good challenge that only hardcore fans will appreciate.

      I would say that GH3 spans a large interval of difficulty level. Thus it should be relatively simple to reach a challenge level that matches your skill. Also, there are several goals you can set for yourself that you can work towards in a non-linear fashion (the bonus songs are great for this); for instance, n-starring all songs, FCing all the songs you had heard before playing the game, FCing all songs. Now vary the difficulty level and your settings for performance mode, precision mode and hyperspeed.

      Sure, FCing TTFAF with precision mode and hypespeed five (or performance mode) is INfuckingSANE. And that's great--it means you won't run out of challenges soon. The greatness of this is of course depends on the fact that there are plenty of easier challenges with a wide selection of difficulty level you can work at, and lots of meaningful goals you can achieve during your play to keep the experience rewarding.

      So, in summary: the hardest parts of GH3 are hard enough that maybe, maybe, one person will complete them. But if you go there, you're asking for it. A sense of accomplishment is accessible to everyone, and there are challenges of sufficiently varying difficulty that your sense of accomplishment can match your level of skill.

    11. Re:Maybe about the curve? by somersault · · Score: 4, Insightful

      it should be more *fun* to play harder difficulties if your better at the game.

      I can tell you that it is indeed fun. If you can't complete the higher difficulty level then obviously you're not 'better at the game'. Being able to play through without ever failing or putting a bit of practice in is not challenging, and for me is therefor not 'fun' either. Try going through the songs more slowly in practice mode if you are finding any sections especially hard (it lets your muscle memory remember the patterns to play, and is especially good for getting used to switching between more akward chord shapes), and remember that the notes go along with the music. I think people on the lower difficulty levels try to watch when the notes pass by the bottom of the screen or something. I just look at the middle to top of the screen to see what is coming, and then play those notes or chords along to the music (though on crazy solos like in Cult of Personality there isn't really any 'music' to play along to, heh, I just try to hit as much as I can.. get around 65-85% of the crazy solos usually).

      The harder difficulties are more 'natural' because they mimic the music almost exactly. I already played guitar before playing Guitar Hero so I had a bit of an advantage co-ordination wise, but I can complete a few songs on Hard even on lefty-flip. Playing lefty flip helped me to understand why some people find the co-ordination difficult (and is also the only way to make the game more challenging again now that I have completed all the set list and bonus songs apart from Through the Fire and Flames and the final battle on Expert) :p

      --
      which is totally what she said
    12. Re:Maybe about the curve? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      I would say that GH3 spans a large interval of difficulty level. Thus it should be relatively simple to reach a challenge level that matches your skill.

      No. That's exactly what I was saying is that I can't "match my skill". For me "Medium" is way too easy and not much fun to play, yet "Hard" is way too hard and not much fun to attempt. It's not an issue of whether it spans a large enough interval of difficulty, but that the difficulty curve isn't well developed (which is what I was saying).

      Further, I think it's clear that there wasn't a lot of focus on making the easier settings *fun*. The harder settings seem to be fun for people who are really good and the the challenge is fun, but the easier settings bear practically no relation to the song in some places. There are things that I don't like about Rock Band, but it handles the whole difficulty curve better and clearly put more thought into the easier settings and the whole game being *fun*.

    13. Re:Maybe about the curve? by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Why would it be fun if easy > medium was just more of the same, going up in difficulty should make you have to think different and figure out different techniques. How would being very good at easy at all prepare you for something too difficult for you?

      Because that's good game design. Playing the game on an easy level should train you to be better at the game, so that playing through the whole game gets you better as time goes on, and then you're better able to play on higher difficulties. This is just common sense in terms of game design, and pretty much all games do this.

      And Guitar Hero 3 acknowledges that this is what a game should be in that the games get progressively more difficult as you move through the set list. If you're starting on Easy, the early songs help you practice the general skills, the later ones get more complicated and force you to learn new techniques. By the time you complete the Easy mode, the idea is that you should be ready to play the easier songs on Medium. It really should work like that, moving you along from Easy to Expert so that Everyone can always find songs that are challenging but within their skill range to attempt.

      And I think Rock Band is much better in that regard.

    14. Re:Maybe about the curve? by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 2, Insightful

      There's no way to make the introduction of the 5th fret completely trivial, which is the main step-up in difficult to Hard.

      That is the problem with Guitar Hero 3 though, the 5th fret isn't what makes 'Hard' so much more difficult. What makes it difficult is that the number of notes you have to play doubles for most songs and even more than that for the later ones. This combined with very unforgiving hammer on and pull off sections that require perfect fingering, makes some songs almost impossible without laboriously practicing each part of the song until you can play it perfectly.

      What really highlights the problem with Guitar Hero 3 is that there isn't the same problem with Rock Band (or GH1/2 for that matter). The real problem with Guitar Hero 3 is that the note patterns aren't intuitive, they are overly complicated and don't match the song well enough for it to be instinctive to play.

      The note patterns Harmonix came up with in GH1 and 2 were very close to the actual songs. Neversoft who developed GH3 just aren't as good at translating songs into notes for the game.

    15. Re:Maybe about the curve? by MrAngryForNoReason · · Score: 1

      Playing the game on an easy level should train you to be better at the game, so that playing through the whole game gets you better as time goes on, and then you're better able to play on higher difficulties.

      Another example of a game that goes against this principle is the Tiger Woods series. On normal anyone can be a fantastic golfer after a couple of hours. After a while you want more of a challenge so move up to the next difficulty - suddenly you can't play at all. The normal level is so dumbed down that when you go to the next level up you go from hitting birdies all the time to taking 20 strokes to finish a hole.

      This would be more forgivable if the game didn't recommend that you start on normal, and if it wasn't an ongoing campaign. Because the whole game is one long 'career' you win loads of competitions on normal, do well and move forward. Then you move up a difficulty for a more challenging game and not only are you having to deal with the 500% rise in shot difficulty but with stronger opponents as you are further on in your career. Unfortunatly by the point you think to increase the difficulty you have invested sufficient time to make it painful to restart your career.

    16. Re:Maybe about the curve? by ghostmech · · Score: 0

      All I have to say... Ghouls and Ghosts

  3. Old NES games by Enderandrew · · Score: 3, Insightful

    People forget how hard many of these games are. A perfect play through the game might be 10 minutes, but the "replay" was getting the perfect 10 minutes down by memorizing the exact way to play the game.

    --
    http://blindscribblings.com - Tasty pop-culture in conceptual fashion.
    1. Re:Old NES games by Mprx · · Score: 1

      NES games are often difficult but unfair and frustrating - "Nintendo hard". For a better type of difficulty, see most arcade games. Here there's a strong incentive to make the player fail (more money for the operator), but if it feels unfair the player won't play that game again. With NES games the publisher already has their money, so the difficulty is added only to stop complaints about the game being too short.

    2. Re:Old NES games by DreadPiratePizz · · Score: 1

      And because games now have to have stories, often "integrated into gameplay", we're expected to finish it in order to experience the narrative. Completing a game is no longer a challenge, because your hand is being held to make sure you finish. I'll bet a lot of people love mario but never beat world 8-4.

    3. Re:Old NES games by Krater76 · · Score: 2, Insightful

      I'll bet a lot of people love mario but never beat world 8-4.

      They would've but by that point they were conditioned to expect the old bait-and-switch.

      Thank you Mario! But our princess is in another castle!

      --
      "Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery?" - Patrick Henry
    4. Re:Old NES games by Yoozer · · Score: 1

      I'll bet a lot of people love mario but never beat world 8-4.

      They would, after judicious use of Warp zones. Same thing in SMB3 with the warp whistle, albeit that SMB3's variety is a stronger incentive to not use it (the levels in SMB1 are repetetive so you're not missing much except for palette swaps).

    5. Re:Old NES games by mzs · · Score: 1

      I have a Wii and I am very fond of the difficulty of these old games. They are challenging yet very rewarding. My reflexes are not what they used to be plus I have lost most feeling in my left thumb do to an accident yet with practice I can do very well in most of the old games. Also there is randomness in many of these old games so you do need to learn techniques as well positions. A perfect game for me is SuperC. With new games it is much too easy to complete them.

  4. Civ IV by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Insightful

    On the contrary, I hate how Civ IV does its difficulty settings.

    It's normal and slightly above normal difficulty settings are far too easy. Immortal (the highest setting) is simply designed to cripple you as much as possible while giving the AI bonus cities and resources. The medium-high difficulty settings (which is what I usually play at) are usually pretty balanced between them and me, but the kicker is that the difficulty isn't precisely harder than normal, the game just gives the AI 5 times the units it would normally have. So when you have machine gunners and riflemen gunning down their knights and longbowmen (since it doesn't actually play any smarter), it just takes 5x as long to beat the game, and it just ends up feeling like an eternal slogging march, not fun at all. Personally, I think the approach is just stupid.

    1. Re:Civ IV by Jorophose · · Score: 1

      I've noticed with alpha centauri, at Transcend (highest), all it does is make it so that your enemies run at like crazy speeds; third turn and they had secret projects already finished...

      The other settings are designed more to have the AI use more cunning. I think at one point they start to get the Believers and Spartans (the war factions) to try and do amphibious assaults, at least against the other AIs (they did it to me once on my homeland, but two/three times against me in conquered territories, and a fair bit against the other AIs...). I've seen Lal try doing a maritime assault on "citizen" (lowest), but all he did is show up with an impact gunship (lightly armoured IIRC) and started bombing my coast line.

      Not an issue because he was bombing near a lone base, out in the middle of a desertic wasteland (huge map of planet's east continent ftw). I think at higher levels they get smarter in terms of targets, and are able to assault strategically better in a war (they don't get a lot more aggressive unless you tell them to in the preferences...).

    2. Re:Civ IV by ACS+Solver · · Score: 4, Informative

      Give me a better option. I worked on Civ4 and the expansions. And I think that generally, the right approach to difficulty was taken.

      The AI is only going to be this smart. Fact is, most players actually play at below-average difficulties. But what makes Civ hard? Your competition, the AI ultimately. We all want a better and stronger AI but there are limits to what you can do. Specifically, it's never going to be as effective in using its units as a competent human player. Therefore, the AI needs more units to be competitive against a human.

      For the Beyond the Sword expansion, one of the best Civ4 players out there had a contract to work on the AI. It was improved dramatically and, interestingly, the bonuses it gets on higher difficulties were actually decreased compared to the original game. Still, despite some great programming and LOTS of playtester attention to the AI, it's obviously not as smart as human players. So yes, higher difficulties have to give the AI some bonuses to compensate. Immortal (it's the 2nd highest) and Deity are designed for a very small minority of players who just need a challenge against all odds. It's not a level meant to be fun for everyone, just like Settler is a level specifically designed for people who don't know what they're doing at all.

      The only other approach would be to make the AI behaviour smarter at high levels. But if you write a smarter AI algorithm, why leave it enabled only for the higher levels? Let it be everywhere. I strongly opposed the notion of having silly AI behaviour on lower levels. It can bite you in the ass. Higher levels may be warranted in being more aggressive, but not smarter. Because if you make higher levels smarter than you're at the same time denying lower levels these smart algorithms, which is a bad thing.

      As a side note, BtS has a revamped "Aggressive AI" setting which is more like "ruthless AI". It's not plain-out aggression, it just plays a more hardcore game and expects a more ruthless human opponent.

    3. Re:Civ IV by ShakaUVM · · Score: 4, Interesting

      That's an interesting question. I actually sketched out a fairly detailed document on how I'd write a Civ AI and downloaded the API for it, but couldn't make enough sense of the code to start hacking on it. I do have a background in writing game AI - I wrote a bot for Quake, and have modded quite a few games (see my URL for the biggest one), but I couldn't get to the point where I grokked the code. I know it's not much of an excuse, I obviously could have spent more time on it, and spent more time digging up docs on it, but there it is.

      Essentially, the problems I see with the Civ 4 AI are this (in no particular order):
      1) Too easy on noble (and lower). As in, without doing anything particularly interesting, you end up outteching the AI by progressively larger margins, and they don't have much of an army to stop you. At some point, you can just roll in with a small stack of gunpowder units and wipe out all the enemy civs.
      2) Surrendering to Switzerland. A number of times I've been beating the snot out of a civ, and offered it vassalage, which it would refuse. I'd beat on it some more, then it would surrender to a random third party that neither of us are at war with.
      3) On Monarch and higher, the game makes these obscene superstacks of units for the AI. As in, there'll be 30 or 40 tanks or knights or whatever on one city, and 10 to 20 units on all the other cities. If a human is at the point where it can kill such a stack, he's going to win eventually, but it requires an amazingly tedious amount of time to do so, and the AI appears to be able to pull massive amounts of military units out of its ass, and apparently without paying upkeep. Or if it is paying upkeep, then it's certainly a bug, since it'll get even more out-teched since it can't afford research.
      4) The AI's lacking in basic tactics sometimes. It'll suicide entire stacks of 20 units against a trio of fortified machine gunners, won't use terrain intelligently (well, some of the time it will), doesn't use spies to take out critical resources (like a lone copper or horse resource, instead attacking horses in the tank era or a resource that I already have 3 of).
      5) It's careless with its workers, allowing them to get captured easily. I know this was patched in the latest version, but the last game I played I captured a lot of enemy workers just tooling around. They're especially trusting before war breaks out.
      6) It's general method of moving troops and ships around is just odd sometimes. I've seen enemy units get stuck in a mountain, trying to pathfind across it, or individual units approaching my stack when I'm at war with them.
      7) The AI, in general, is completely reactive. If I set my spy rate up higher, the AI will set its spy rate up higher. If I turn up my culture rate, he turns up his culture rate.
      8) Too trusting. If I'm at peace with an AI, but building up a large force along the border, it will mostly ignore it until I invade. I'd like to see it take up defensive positions with spare units and build forts in border tiles (especially in chokepoints) instead of being constantly surprised every time someone declares war on them. Likewise, a lot of time they'll declare war without their armies being in position for it.

      What I'd like to see is this:
      1) High level AI tasks. Have AIs decide perhaps 30 turns in advance that they're going to betray a peace treaty and start cranking out units and positioning them on a border, ready to invade. If relations haven't improved on the target date, rush in with everything. Alternatively, have it decide to make a solid effort to take over the new world, instead of the piecemeal way that it expands to new continents now. The different AI types (techers, expansionists, militarists) would have different likelihoods for the various tasks. Essentially this would make them appear to be more human, and more interesting to work with.
      2) Set them up to beeline different techs and wonders to match a specific objective chosen at the beginning of the game. For example, an AI could go with

    4. Re:Civ IV by Kjella · · Score: 1

      Careful what you ask for, make a game where the computer can beat you on AI alone may just as well mean that the options are limited and the computer can be a more persistent micromanager than you are. You want a wide variety of units, buildings, tactics, economy and so on that gives you many fairly even options to choose from, which means no matter how smart the AI is you'll find a way it plays poorly and exploit it. The alternative would be one dominant strategy that it'd always stick to which would get boring really, really fast.

      --
      Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
    5. Re:Civ IV by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>The alternative would be one dominant strategy that it'd always stick to which would get boring really, really fast.

      The whole, "have the AI cheat and build 10x as many units as it should have" also gets boring really, really fast. Actually, no, it doesn't. It takes about 8 hours to mop up an AI in games like that. It gets boring very slowly. =)

      What would be better? Have it cheat on tech instead of unit building when its falling too far behind, maybe? Or have it understand combat odds so it does more than throw away units in suicide waves?

    6. Re:Civ IV by TheRaven64 · · Score: 1

      Total Annihilation was a good example of a game biased towards AI players. An AI player could easily control a dozen or more construction bots wandering around the map building things, make sure all of the factories was building and still produce little groups of units to attack you. The Command and Conquer series was biased the other way - you could only build one of each kind of thing at once (to give the AI a bit of an advantage, the AI cheated and could build a different tank with each war factory, and so on).

      --
      I am TheRaven on Soylent News
    7. Re:Civ IV by ACS+Solver · · Score: 3, Insightful

      Very fair post, I'll go over some of your complaints briefly.

      1) Too easy on noble (and lower). As in, without doing anything particularly interesting, you end up outteching the AI by progressively larger margins, and they don't have much of an army to stop you. At some point, you can just roll in with a small stack of gunpowder units and wipe out all the enemy civs.

      First of all, levels below Noble are supposed to be easy. So that's fine. Now, you'd be surprised as to how many players are the really casual type - most seem to dabble at a level below Noble for quite a while, even after figuring the basics out. But Noble also isn't the level for hardcore players, yeah, it's quite forgiving. I'd guess from your post that you know a thing or two about games, so Nobble should get easy for someone as you quickly. You may think you're not doing much but if you're outteching the AI on Noble, it's a guarantee that you're using many game systems right.

      2) Surrendering to Switzerland. A number of times I've been beating the snot out of a civ, and offered it vassalage, which it would refuse. I'd beat on it some more, then it would surrender to a random third party that neither of us are at war with.

      This is in fact more of a design issue than an AI issue. The vassalage system is designed in pretty odd ways that can seem counterintuitive. If your enemy surrenders to a 3rd party, he's either at war with it (and the 3rd party has done enough damage) or that 3rd party likes the victim and doesn't like you much. It's supposed to be a big guy taking a small guy into his protection. But no, I don't like the particulars of the vassal system too much myself.

      3) On Monarch and higher, the game makes these obscene superstacks of units for the AI. As in, there'll be 30 or 40 tanks or knights or whatever on one city, and 10 to 20 units on all the other cities. If a human is at the point where it can kill such a stack, he's going to win eventually, but it requires an amazingly tedious amount of time to do so, and the AI appears to be able to pull massive amounts of military units out of its ass, and apparently without paying upkeep. Or if it is paying upkeep, then it's certainly a bug, since it'll get even more out-teched since it can't afford research.

      You think that's big? I've seen AI stacks of up to 100 units ;) But here you are talking about one of the fundamental problems in Civ. It's not even an AI problem alone, it's a problem with how the game works. In war, there's a certain point where you break the enemy's main force (or take a crucial city) and it really gets much easier from there. At the same time, overcoming an enemy can become tedious. All I can say is, I hope a future iteration works around this someday. As for the Civ4 AI specifically, it follows the logic that at least its huge-ass stack might give you enough punishment. Huge-ass stacks have proven repeatedly to be the best combat tactic, it's just more effective. A good human will always have such a stack, and here spreading out would actually be weaker because the only thing that counters such a stack is a bigger stack. Yes, you can see the deficiencies of the combat system here.

      The AI is paying upkeep, though, and it never gets free units (except at high levels at the start of the game). However, upkeep is reduced at higher difficulty levels and also note that upkeep is pretty low as long as units stay in territory, so the defending force never spends too much in upkeep costs.

      4) The AI's lacking in basic tactics sometimes. It'll suicide entire stacks of 20 units against a trio of fortified machine gunners, won't use terrain intelligently (well, some of the time it will), doesn't use spies to take out critical resources (like a lone copper or horse resource, instead attacking horses in the tank era or a resource that I already have 3 of).

      Some of that still happens sadly. But such extreme

    8. Re:Civ IV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      I had actually tried FreeCiv a few times, and every time, I quiet because the AI's smarts was too difficult even at the lowest settings.

    9. Re:Civ IV by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      It's normal and slightly above normal difficulty settings

      "Its", and possibly "slightly-above-normal".

  5. Previous experience required... by halsver · · Score: 1

    Unless you have beaten the computer in Civ IV on Deity difficultly your opinion here is irrelevant!

    --
    Roughly half my comments are never submitted. You may be reading the better half...
    1. Re:Previous experience required... by Carnildo · · Score: 1

      Does Civ II, Deity, only one city count?

      --
      "They redundantly repeated themselves over and over again incessantly without end ad infinitum" -- ibid.
    2. Re:Previous experience required... by robsie · · Score: 1

      Well at least the gaming is a lot faster in the higher settings, you seem to research things very quickly. Very entertaining even if you do end up getting beaten.

    3. Re:Previous experience required... by Daetrin · · Score: 1

      "Unless you have beaten the computer in Civ IV on Deity difficultly your opinion here is irrelevant!"

      So in order to be "eligible" to comment on how a good intelligent AI should be designed one must first succeed at beating a so-so AI that's been given an enormous game mechanics advantage?

      I've worked on games before (although not directly on AI) and i've played my fair share of games, and i know that designing an AI capable of taking on a human in a fair fight is impossible for a TBS (the "so-so" comment was not meant as a slight on Civ4 in particular, just a comment on the state of AI in general,) and i accept that until we learn more about programming AIs giving the AI huge advantages or "cheats" is the best we can do at the harder levels. However that doesn't mean that people who are playing at the "regular" difficulty (no bonuses for either side and AI at its best potential) can't spot areas that need improvement. Remember, the goal is _better_ AI. Anyone with half a brain can design _harder_ AI for any given game without even playing it just by picking which rules need to be bent or broken in favor of the computer.

      --
      This Space Intentionally Left Blank
  6. Spilt cpu intelligent and cpu handy cap / cheating by Joe+The+Dragon · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Spilt cpu intelligent and cpu handy cap / cheating in to there own settings. Do not put them under the same setting. Heroes of might and magic 1 had that.

  7. Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by drexlor · · Score: 5, Interesting

    I wrote a paper in college about how video games could evaluate and adjust difficulty based on metrics while the gamer is playing. I think a game's difficulty that is based off input from the controller and game statistics would help people have a more enjoyable gaming experience.

    If the game can receive input from the gamepad/joystick they can measure heat, motion, button hitting frequencies, and things of that nature.

    Software inputs can be used too. Time measured in zones, level completion times, and time to defeat creatures can be measured to add as heuristics. Death counts and locations can be used to determine what areas need work.

    These inputs have been associated with stress levels in gaming and can be used to adjust creature abilities, time limits, weapon power, and directional support for the gamer. If the gamer is playing well the difficulty will become more difficult over time and if the player is having trouble then the difficulty can be toned down slowly and selectively. Directional help can also be used if the game thinks the gamer is lost.

    These could help create a more dynamic game that fits to the gamer.

    1. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      The racing sim "Ferrari Challenge" has dynamic difficulty -- at least on the PS3, it does. It's far more enjoyable than any of the preset offerings.

    2. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Mprx · · Score: 3, Interesting

      Dynamic difficulty is a very bad idea. There's no sense of accomplishment if the game punishes you for doing well. The only way it can work is if manipulating the difficulty system is intended as part of the game, as in Battle Garrega where the only way to succeed is learning how to keep the dynamic difficulty low, which is a difficult sub-game in itself.

    3. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      GAME DEVELOPERS - Please do this. As an old f*rt, I do not see as well, I do not hear as well, my hands do not move as fast - I have played some games which were nearly impossible without a god-mode cheat. I would much rather play at a comfortable stretch of my remaining inate abilities. I really do not want to spend my remaining old age playing turn-based games.

    4. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by jhfry · · Score: 1

      Doesn't work... I quit playing Oblivion when I realized that you can beat it as a level 2-3 character FAR easier than if you fully develop your character.

      Also, what do you do about situations where a player has played a game to certain spot and starts over... the game would assume that this player is far more advanced that he really is as he didn't make a single wrong move up to that point... then he can't seem to get past that spot on any subsequent plays.

      User selectable skill levels where the levels increase in difficulty in unpredictable ways are the best. Perhaps enemy's spawn slightly faster, perhaps mazes have more dead ends, maybe ammo is more sparse, maybe weather plays a more significant effect in visibility and movement speed. Keep enemies the same, make the game play more difficult through external influences which require that the player use strategy that can only be achieved through previous play of the game.

      --
      Sometimes the best solution is to stop wasting time looking for an easy solution.
    5. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Bill+Dog · · Score: 1

      There's no sense of accomplishment if the game punishes you for doing well.

      I think the idea is that the game would play at *just below* your measured level (versus punishing you by adjusting up to maintaining always being better than you). Then you could feel good about it letting you win! ;-)

      --
      Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
    6. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Mprx · · Score: 1

      I don't want a game to let me win, I want to earn that victory. If you don't have to overcome real challenge it's not a game at all, only "interactive entertainment". Anyone who's ascended a Nethack character should understand this. Nethack is a perfect example of good difficulty. When you complete your first ascension you'll get a feeling of accomplishment missing from most modern games. The game wasn't helping you at all, and you only succeeded by your own skill.

    7. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by ChrisMounce · · Score: 1

      On one hand, I'd hate to think the computer was letting me win, but on the other, that's how I usually want to be treated. My dad used to play Global War (a Risk clone), and he commented that to really have fun, you need to win something like 80% of the time.

      In an evenly matched multiplayer game, your wins are going to be around 50% (thinking first-person shooters here). But that's compensated in part by the satisfaction that you just fragged a real human. Food for thought: are multiplayer games more fun if there are more ways to win than to lose (so everyone can get their wins up to 80%)?

      On another note: you could integrate the dynamic levels of difficulty with the standard "easy, medium, hard" menu. For example, if you get beat the first time you play on hard, the computer goes easy on you the second time you play — but it still makes it harder than medium would. You could also have something like easy tries to let you win 90% of the time, medium tries to let you win 80% of the time, etc. Just thinking out loud.

    8. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Kopiok · · Score: 1

      That may work for some, but a lot of gamers want the game to keep kicking their ass until they learn how to beat it, or they get better at the game. If the game scaled back when I fail a couple of times, I would not feel as if I accomplished anything except the game taking pity on me.

    9. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Bill+Dog · · Score: 1

      My dad used to play Global War (a Risk clone), and he commented that to really have fun, you need to win something like 80% of the time.

      It's different for different people. I played a Risk clone called Strategic Conquest in college, and after getting beyond the newbie stage I cranked it to the upper levels and then started backing it down until I was winning about half the time. That's just the threshold that I preferred. If I knew I won about 80% of the time, then in any given game I would go in thinking that, chances are, I know who'll win. That's no fun. And since I'd be assuming I'd win, if a given game was one of the two in ten, I'd be really disappointed. But at 50/50, I go in with no expectations, and I don't feel bad when I lose.

      For example, if you get beat the first time you play on hard, the computer goes easy on you the second time you play --...

      One small problem with all this dynamism people are entertaining is that it makes comparisons between individuals mostly meaningless. I can tell my friend that I beat game X at level No Mercy, but if it plays different with different people, or even with the same person on different days, it deflates somewhat your bragging rights. Not a huge deal, tho.

      --
      Attention zealots and haters: 00100 00100
    10. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Kalimos · · Score: 1

      God Hand has dynamic difficulty, based off dodging enemy attacks and using more advanced techniques and lowering if taking hits, usually lowering rapidly if you take even one or two. Though, God Hand will still beat the crap out of most players on the easiest mode.

    11. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Swordsmanus · · Score: 1
      Dynamic difficulty works in certain games where there's a time limit and score. See the Geometry Wars series, and Pac Man: Championship Edition for successful examples.

      It may be applicable to other games without a time limit, but it would have to be done in such a way to give the player feedback on their progress (like a rank you can see at all times, independent of your levels etc), reward the player for playing well (if you complete X part of the game with rank at Y or higher, you get Z reward), the option to bring the difficulty back up if they've fallen far at one point but gotten the hang of things in the mean time, etc. Actually...some of the Megaman Zero games on the GBA had features almost completely matching this, minus the ability to raise your rank other than through consistently good play.

      Or you could do it the easy way like Bioware and have the difficulty adjustable at any time, so you can get through a tough spot if you really need to and then get back on with the game at the difficulty level you used before.

    12. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Thiez · · Score: 1

      > In an evenly matched multiplayer game, your wins are going to be around 50% (thinking first-person shooters here). But that's compensated in part by the satisfaction that you just fragged a real human. Food for thought: are multiplayer games more fun if there are more ways to win than to lose (so everyone can get their wins up to 80%)?

      I find that when one team is outnumbered 4 to 1, people win 80% of the time on average. Seriously though, you said it yourself: fragging in multiplayer is nice because you defeat another person. For you to win, at least 1 other person must lose (victory is even better when you make a large number of people fail at the same time). Therefore all players winning 80% of the time in an FPS isn't really doable. I guess you could design a game where you could earn certain things that do not rely on other people losing (achievements?) but if everone can 'win' that way the victory becomes meaningless.

    13. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Swordsmanus · · Score: 1

      One small problem with all this dynamism people are entertaining is that it makes comparisons between individuals mostly meaningless. I can tell my friend that I beat game X at level No Mercy, but if it plays different with different people, or even with the same person on different days, it deflates somewhat your bragging rights. Not a huge deal, tho.

      Well, scores and/or ranks (which bias towards maintaining a high difficulty) would help mitigate this issue.

    14. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      Was it the first Real FPS game (forget what it's called) that had a dynamic AI? It would literally learn your techniques (such as you jump out from a corner, shoot, and leap back behind it, repeat.

      Well, a few times of that, and the bad guy would shoot a second time, perfectly timed for when you re-leapt out to hit you.

      So one minute, you're leaping out, back, out, back, out, monster dead.

      The next you leap out, back, out, bam, you're dead.

      Brilliant.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    15. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      I've seen games do this before. I think City of Heroes missions are like this.

      It won't rescue you from being pounded over and over in a mission that's way over your head, but if you're "almost there", a subsequent attempt can be easier.

      For example, typical missions may have spawns of 1 minion and 1 lieutenant, while later retries might use 3 minions and 0 lieutenants, which is mildly easier. Of course, this may also just be a fallout of them treating the two spawn types as roughly equivalent in difficulty.

      Or maybe not.

      For online games, though, it's hard to find fellow insane partners to tackle the toughest of things when you can just wimp the difficulty or skip it altogether.

      They really need a new class of server just for insane people.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
    16. Re:Using metrics from gameplay to tweak difficulty by dj.delorie · · Score: 1

      In quake3, I want the bots to play better if I start scoring higher than them. I.e. the lowest scoring bots try harder, the highest scoring bots ease up. That way, all the bots play at *my* level, regardless of what kind of a day I'm having.

      The alternative is to quit the level and restart it with different settings.

  8. The only difficulty settings you'll ever need by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    After having read countless of posts written by the so called gamers, I've come with the perfect set of difficulty settings, that's good for everyone:

    1. Normal (an euphemism for 'easy', for people that suck at videogames)
    2. Hard (for people that have no life)
    3. Iddqd (same as hard, but with the 'God Mode' activated, for people that suck at videogames, but want to feel like the ones that have no life)

    The third option can be a hidden feature as these kind of players will happily spend $$$ to know how to access it.

  9. Needs funny option names!! by Haoie · · Score: 1

    Instead of Easy/Normal/Hard, there should be more amusing titles for them.

    For example, the system in Wolfenstein 3D. And I'm sure there are other examples too, outside of id developed games.

    --
    If each mistake being made is a new one, then progress is being made.
    1. Re:Needs funny option names!! by geminidomino · · Score: 1

      Instead of Easy/Normal/Hard, there should be more amusing titles for them.

      For example, the system in Wolfenstein 3D. And I'm sure there are other examples too, outside of id developed games.

      Rise of the Triad... *wave of nostalgia*

    2. Re:Needs funny option names!! by rgo · · Score: 1

      Or like Carmageddon, where "Easy as killing bunnies with axes" standed for easy and "Harder than frenchkissing a cobra" standed for hard.

    3. Re:Needs funny option names!! by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 1

      "Don't hurt me daddy!" setting, with a bonnet and a pacifier in his mouth. Good times...

      Once you completed Serious Sam on Serious (which I did, solo), it unlocked "You are not serious" difficulty, which seemed to be about the same except the monsters faded in and out of visibility over a few second cycle.

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  10. Big problem in strategy games by ElMiguel · · Score: 4, Insightful

    I'm a fan of turn-based strategy games such as Civilization, and yet I usually stop playing most of them after a while because I get angry at the way hard difficulty levels are implemented.

    You see, the developers of these games apparently find it too difficult to implement an AI that plays by the same rules as human players and yet provides a good challenge. So AIs cheat. Cheats come in two flavours: information cheats (e.g. send an unprotected valuable unit and you'll see an enemy fighter, who in theory has no way of knowing about your unit, beeline for it) and stats cheats (e.g. the AI produces units 40% faster than you).

    I call those special rules "cheats" because they are typically not documented or consistent with the game story. So you end up making blind guesses about what rules the AI is playing by in a very atmosphere-shattering way and trying to adapt to them. It really feels like cheating and drains my interest in otherwise excellent games pretty fast.

    1. Re:Big problem in strategy games by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Amen. Another example springs to mind: Command & Conquer, all of the series before the latest one or two titles. Start a match against a computer opponent with superweapons turned on, and you'll get nuked (with a perfectly calculated hit factor) before you've even made contact with your enemy, or have any clue where you could send your nukes.

      In StarCraft, the AI scripts actually have a command to add +2000 minerals and gas to the computer opponent, if it happens to run out of either at a bad time.

      Things like this can really piss off a gamer, but thankfully are mostly disappearing from today's games, as AI programming has advanced enough to not require the use of such.

    2. Re:Big problem in strategy games by robsie · · Score: 1

      To implement this scenario, wouldn't developers need game testers who are able to play on that very difficulty setting and monitor their movements, calculations and strategies and then bundle them into an AI? This would be quite a cost (if it's a good game should pay for itself).

      Testers may need time to get really good at the difficulty setting, the release date would be pushed out and more money would be spent.

      I guess there are a whole lot of factors to consider in making the AIs in games. But definitely I also see room for improvement, look how far we have come from the first CIV? Remember that bug where you declared war on another CIV and then when asking for peace after so long, you demand 999999 per turn and he some how said yes to it? Come to think of it there are a number of nuances that you could bank on, should you need to beat the AI who is cheating but I guess then again you may be cheating yourself. HMM

    3. Re:Big problem in strategy games by VeNoM0619 · · Score: 1

      Empire Earth had an excellent difficulty system (when creating maps). You could set many key factors, especially whether it was going to cheat or not.

      Another great RTS would be the Galactic Civilizations II games. Where if you played on an easy level, the computer actually told you it knew what you were doing - but was set too low to react (like putting tons of units on its borders before going hostile), to help you realize that it had the potential to counter-attack, and if you wanted a more fair challenge you should turn up the difficulty more.

      The whole "beeline" into unknown territory always seems to be the hindrance in RTS games still though. Typical players don't tend to have scouts going into every possible area within the first 5 seconds of gameplay, because they don't have the micro management (although auto explore systems have helped a little on this).

      --
      Disclaimer: I am not god.
      We may not be created equal
      But we can be treated equal.
    4. Re:Big problem in strategy games by gid · · Score: 1

      I remember playing the original Warcraft. I surrounded the enemy's home base with archers having them hold their ground. So the computer would spit out a peon and it would instantly get killed. So I let it run for a day or so, yet the computer kept spitting out peons, proving it had infinite money. That rather annoyed me at the time to find that out. Of course the game was pretty easy with the correct strategy nonetheless, but it always made me wonder what other ways game AIs cheat.

    5. Re:Big problem in strategy games by Jaysyn · · Score: 1

      Have you tried Galactic Civilizations? They specifically don't "cheat" with their AI, although turning that on is an option if you still need a challenge.

      --
      There is a war going on for your mind.
    6. Re:Big problem in strategy games by Impy+the+Impiuos+Imp · · Score: 3, Interesting

      > Things like this can really piss off a gamer, but thankfully are mostly disappearing from
      > today's games, as AI programming has advanced enough to not require the use of such.

      Oh, you know what I hate? It's what I call "Sim Ant Syndrome"

      In Sim Ant, you simulated an entire ant colony, though you could take charge of any ant you wanted in order to move it somewhere, usually to leave a chemical trail to food or a battle.

      So far so good. But the enemy ant colony always made a bee line (so to speak) for whatever ant you had posessed, whether you left a chemical trail or not. If you switched ants, the other ants always immediately switched to attack that new ant -- even before you had done anything with it.

      Mech Warrior Mercenaries, the best Mech game I've ever played, also suffered from this. You'd go out with your two wingmen and the opposing triad of mechs would always come after you, end of story.

      So I put Sim Ant Syndrome to work for me, and got in the little 160 mph zipper robot, and assigned the Atlas D and Atlas K to my wingmen, and ran all over the place while they slowly chewed up the idiots always gunning for me.

      Ahhh, the good old Atlas D. There was a point 2/3 through the game where the mechs you "found" started being seriously upgraded from your already-looted stable of mechs, thus making obsolete all the old mechs -- except the monstrous Atlas D, which was so massive it could still stand up to the new mech pounding, and could loadout enough stuff to fight back more than effectively. And the Atlas K, the new mech's Atlas, sheesh.

      Within a few levels of the Atlas K, though, the game got to a point where it would crash when I got to a certain spot and I couldn't get around it, even reverting to a fairly ancient saved game. And that was with the final patch ever released. I wonder if anyone ever finished MWM on "hardest".

      --
      (-1: Post disagrees with my already-settled worldview) is not a valid mod option.
  11. Halo is a terrible example by RiotingPacifist · · Score: 1

    After removing the permanent damage (a.k.a health point) it just became a case of throwing more stuff at you all at once.

    --
    IranAir Flight 655 never forget!
  12. FPS AI by PaganRitual · · Score: 4, Interesting

    Has there ever been a first person shooter for where the difficulty level isn't simply an indication of how close you want your enemies to aimbots?

    I can easily think of the negative extremes, such as Soldier of Fortune 2, with the infamous jungle level, and my own personal experiences with being shot through thick jungle, repeatedly having grenades land perfectly at my feet from enemies that haven't even seen me yet, and training a sniper scope onto the back of an enemies head at maximum range, only to have him suddenly turn around and go sneaking towards me. And Call of Duty, where increased difficulty was just the games way of asking exactly what percentage of the entire opposition army you wanted to face at once.

    I appreciate that Halo tends to take a beating every time it's put forward as a paragon of game design and gaming in general and that the Halo fanboys with mod points will destroy me, but seriously, one of the gripes is with the claim that Halo's AI is somehow fitting of the Legendary title on it's hardest difficulty, when anyone playing the game sans rose-colored glasses has trouble not noticing that the enemies now simply fire faster, harder and lead perfectly.

    "It's not like we just cranked every enemy's health by 200% and called it Legendary," he said. "There was a good amount of custom changes made per mission as well ...[snip]... What did make a difference was the time spent tweaking and fixing issues to make the game fun on every difficulty level. All titles had more bad guys, stronger and more accurate enemies with faster projectiles. And they used similar numbers for each of these parameters."

    So in other words they made the enemies fire faster, harder and lead better. Thanks for clearing that up.

    On the plus side, Far Cry's AI was reasonable, but had noticable holes, such as when it somehow thought it was hidden yet you could clearly see it sneaking towards you down an open dirt track, seemingly with an "If I can't see him then he can't see me" attitude. And if I remember correctly it improved further in Crysis. Although the thing that seems to happen with games like that is as soon as you claim that the AI is brilliant any single example of the AI not working flawlessly has people uploading videos to youtube showing that the AI is completely garbage because of this one time it got stuck on that shark outside the hut or something.

    Are there any really decent examples of FPS AI or do we have to still be happy with running the Reaper Bot in Quake?

    1. Re:FPS AI by gknoy · · Score: 2, Informative

      ...as soon as you claim that the AI is brilliant any single example of the AI not working flawlessly has people uploading videos to youtube showing that the AI is completely garbage because of this one time it got stuck on that shark outside the hut or something.

      The solution, then, is to ensure that AI can jump, right? :)

    2. Re:FPS AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      For what it's worth, the Reaper bot in Quake 1 also cheated - see http://www.mindspring.com/~win32ch/Reaper.htm

    3. Re:FPS AI by Kr4u53 · · Score: 2, Informative

      I was particularly a fan of the AI in FEAR

    4. Re:FPS AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Please see Sin Episodes for an example of a systemic metrics-driven example of Dynamic Difficulty. Read more here:
      http://www.ritualistic.com/games.php/sineps/info_dyndiff.php

      A very well-tuned difficulty experience, if you ask me.

    5. Re:FPS AI by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      F.E.A.R.
      I'm surprised it hasn't been mentioned yet.

      I read some interview with one of the developers a while back and I think he said it was actually a fairly light script for enemy AI. However, because of scripted comments about your actions, enemies turning over objects to create cover and level design choices about where cover is placed it makes a quite convincing illusion.

    6. Re:FPS AI by PaganRitual · · Score: 1

      I knew there was another game that had good AI and I couldn't think of the damn name. I don't even think FEAR had any of those dodgy Far Cry holes in the AI that were easily exploited, at least not as far as I can remember.

      Also, it's interesting to note that my OP score is steadily moving down again after reaching (as far as I saw) 4 before the Halo fanboys with mod points got a hold of it. As expected.

    7. Re:FPS AI by PaganRitual · · Score: 1

      I was actually under the impression that everyone disliked the way that Sin Episodes implemented this because the game did degenerate into quickload fest because the enemies got so hard if you went really well in the beginning. I'm certain there was a lot of gnashing of teeth etc at the fact that the game would present you with a brick wall diffculty wise if you went too well early on.

      I know that I personally found this to be the case; playing it on Hard I got to the point where I had to save after every combat because I had to learn exactly where everyone was coming from in the next combat otherwise I would inevitably and repeatedly get killed. In the end I re-started the game on Normal, and frustratingly enough completely breezed through it with limited challenge.

    8. Re:FPS AI by thepotoo · · Score: 1

      FEAR's AI was simply a trick - really great motion capture disguising an AI which really just had 3 options: charge, take cover, or scripted flank.

      There were also a few other scripted moments, like throw grenade, jump out of truck, or knock over bookcase for cover. If you played the game on hard, you could really tell that the only difference was that it did more damage. Same animations, in the same places; I could often blindfire grenades around corners simply by remembering where enemies were last time I played.

      Still, even with a "trick" AI, FEAR is one of my favorite FPS games. It gave the illusion of intelligence, and that's really all you can ask of a game's AI.

      --
      Obligatory Soundbite Catchphrase
    9. Re:FPS AI by nine-times · · Score: 1

      Not exactly a FPS, but I was talking with someone about Thief recently, so it comes to mind. IIRC the difficulty levels added extra objectives to your missions. The enemy AI wasn't really much smarter (they may have made them a little stronger or something), but the real challenge is they might change the patrol, put someone right near the door you have to get through, and then add the requirement that you couldn't be detected or kill anyone. So it didn't really matter whether the guard was harder to kill, because the point was that you had to get past him. It successfully made it both more difficult and more rewarding.

      This isn't really completely related to your post. You're talking about more run-and-gun type of games, and I think those sorts of games simply don't have a lot of options in adjusting difficulty. You can make enemies stronger, smarter, faster, and you can let them cheat. Making real changes in the AI to change difficulty would be quite a challenge.

    10. Re:FPS AI by Drogo007 · · Score: 1

      Unreal Tournament 1&2 (and to some extent 2004) had the most human-like AI I've seen in a game. IIRC correctly, we (me, two brothers and a couple of friends) got about 3/4 the way up the difficulty scale eventually, playing us against the AI, and it never felt like we were playing aaginst a bunch of Aim-bots. The AI simply behaved more "human" - seemingly random reactions at times, intelligent use of cover and alternate routes, etc etc

    11. Re:FPS AI by spyder913 · · Score: 1

      Aside from Loque, who had perfect aim in UT99. The cool thing was each bot had different variables and you could adjust all of them, including how perfect their aim was.

  13. Let the player make the game as hard as they want. by pushing-robot · · Score: 1

    As I've grown older, I've started to play games for the story, not just the action. While I have nothing against a hard game (and I'm amazed by the things I thought were hard when I was a kid), if I start at too hard of a difficulty level and have to reload my game constantly the immersion really suffers. Unless a game has a means of properly regulating difficulty, I just put it on "normal" and usually yawn my way through combat.

    I'm not generally a fan of rubber-band AI, since it's usually poorly implemented and incredibly frustrating — if you gain a new weapon, level, or ability, you want to feel supremely powerful for a little while; you don't want everything else in the game to immediately level up too.

    On the other hand, I've started really appreciating games that let the player decide how hard they're going to make the experience on a moment-by-moment basis. In other words, providing the player with an only moderately difficult way to accomplish an objective, but encouraging the player to choose a more difficult path.

    I call it the tortoise-and-hare approach, where the player can plod along and never be challenged too greatly, or take great leaps with increased risk for greater reward — even if the reward is merely an ego boost.

    For example, in the Splinter Cell games, I sometimes try playing though them as the perfect ghost - never being spotted (except as the script requires). Or I play through with the objective of knocking every guard unconscious, but never killing anyone (again, except as required). You don't fail a mission by pulling out your gun, yet it always feels like a cheap way to complete a task and a method of last resort. I end up regulating my own difficulty level as I play, finding a more challenging approach whenever possible, but able to fall back on easier gameplay when things get tough. Steam and XBox Live have actually embraced this difficulty-optional play style with their achievements systems (anyone remember the gnome from HL2:E2?), though I find it more immersive to play according to my own goals than someone else's.

    Sandbox games design an entire game around this method of play; GTA games, for instance, can be easy or maddeningly difficult depending on how the player chooses to play them.

    An older take on continuously flexible difficulty is the RPG method. You can usually take time out to power-level your character, or read a FAQ on creating the ultimate build, but it's entirely up to the player. If you'd rather plow on with the story with a weak character, that's fine too. If things get hard later, you can take time out to improve your character some more. Players get to choose how hard the game will be without having to restart with a different difficulty level.

    But however it's done, I think that the best games are the ones that don't lock the player into a level of gameplay through the entire game. Different players will find different spots in the game especially challenging. By keeping the difficulty flexible, players can find ways to get through the hardest bits while keeping the rest of the game challenging.

    --
    How can I believe you when you tell me what I don't want to hear?
  14. Re:Let the player make the game as hard as they wa by Gybrwe666 · · Score: 1

    I have to agree. Having played video games from Pong all the way until today, I now play many games for the world experience, rather than the body count or difficulty. I mainly play FPS's, but after umpteem Quake and Doom clones, the whole difficulty thing wears thin. In most games, this is simply a matter of shooting a little better, or twitching a bit more, to take down more enemies. It gets old after a while.

    Now, lately I've gone back and replayed or collected all the classics I've missed over the years. Deus Ex, HL, HL2, System Shock 1 & 2, RTCW. All of these games have so much more to do and offer than *SEE* than Doom, or Quake. I spent hours exploring in these games. Heck, even Painkiller and Serious Sam had aspects that went beyond the carnage. They were fun to explore, to try and find the hidden areas, to play around in.

    For their times, they each brought something to the table beyond just the killing, even as the games were, in some respects, about the killing.

    You have to give kudos especially to games where difficulty is also about resources and allocation. SS1, 2, and Deus Ex brought that element to the table, and made playing the game enjoyable even on low difficulty by making ammo less infinite, and allowing choices to modify the outcome.

    There are plenty of examples out there where other elements, be they RPG elements or intelligently designed and properly utilized puzzles, or even spectacular level design have contributed to enjoyable game play and replayability without the need to just swarm you with numbers.

  15. Well by Sycraft-fu · · Score: 2, Insightful

    Every Civ game has a level where the AI is matched evenly to you. I believe it is Noble on Civ 4. Regardless, you can look it up and you'll find that at a given difficulty level, the AIs get no benefits or penalties that you don't. The AIs are also operating at full capacity that level, meaning they are using the best tactics they have available to them. Ok, so while they can (and do) make it easier by dumbing down the AIs, they can't make it harder by making them better, as they are as good as it gets. Thus to increase difficulty they have to start giving the AIs unfair advantages.

    There really isn't a way around this. Sure you can say "Make harder AIs," but it isn't as though it is just as easy as that. AI programming in games isn't easy, and they aren't sandbagging on purpose. They are doing their best.

    If you don't like it you can tune Civ in other ways to make it harder. For example give the AI's more special units or buildings. Heck maybe give them all of them. You change that in the CIV4CivilizationInfos.xml file, it is pretty self explanatory what you need to change to grant special units/buildings to a given Civ.

    Also you might try a different game. Galactic Civilizations II is reputed to have some very devious AIs at higher levels. You might give it a shot and see if it is more to your liking.

    Finally you can always play other humans. You aren't guaranteed how hard they'll be, but there are ones waaaaay better than any computer out there.

    1. Re:Well by ShakaUVM · · Score: 1

      >>Also you might try a different game. Galactic Civilizations II is reputed to have some very devious AIs at higher levels. You might give it a shot and see if it is more to your liking.

      >>Finally you can always play other humans. You aren't guaranteed how hard they'll be, but there are ones waaaaay better than any computer out there.

      Those two statements are contradictory. :/ I played GalCiv II and liked it quite a bit, but it has no multiplayer, which ruined most of the fun for me.

      Usually I play with 3 of my friends, and we have good times going 2v2, or even better, 2v2v2v2v2 against AI teams as well (usually on Monarch). It's in these latter games that I get really annoyed at the difficulty settings - while the AI does a much better job keeping up with tech with us on Monarch (on Noble and below it's helpless), it has the side effect of giving the AI 10 times as many military units as it should have, since it has no clue how to use its military in an intelligent fashion, and just throws them all away in tedious suicide waves. We usually call the game when it's clear we've won, but don't want to go through the 8 hours of mopping up, because the AI cheats and has way too many units, and produces them way too fast.

    2. Re:Well by Graywolf · · Score: 1

      Mod parent insightful, that's a pretty exhaustive reply.

  16. Re:Let the player make the game as hard as they wa by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Although not a perfect example mind you, WoW had a fight (and will have a couple more in WotLK) that are like this.

    From vanilla there was the Bug Trio where you had to fight 3 bugs at a time and depending on the order you killed them, you gained different loot, but each bug had a special ability that was hard to handle, so generally you wanted to kill the one with the hardest to handle ability first.

    And in WotLK there is a fight where you have to fight 3 black dragons (one at a time for normal mode) and a boss (fought after you slay the dragons in normal mode), but if you wish, you can fight all 4 at the same time and you then are rewarded for every black dragon that you keep alive when you kill the boss, if you leave 1 alive, you get 1 extra epic, if you leave 2, you get 2 extra epics, one of which is better than the average loot from there, and if you leave 3, you get the previous loots plus a black dragon mount.

    It's not a perfect difficulty system but at least provides players with a choice.

  17. That should be handicap, not "handy cap" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0, Flamebait

    Translating the gibberish, that should be handicap, not "handy cap".

    1. Re:That should be handicap, not "handy cap" by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Such a cap would sure come in handy!

  18. How about removing difficulty modes in FPS? by incognito84 · · Score: 2, Insightful
    How about removing difficulty mods in FPS games altogether?

    I usually found difficulty modes in these types of games to be a charade anyway. In Id software's older games, they simply tweaked the damage points both for the player and the opponent. An Imp in easy mode has twenty health, thirty on normal and fifty on hard. His projectiles do 20% damage on easy, but 50% on hard. There are ten Imps in hard mode where there were five in easy mode, etc.

    Some newer games have the right idea in allowing the player to choose the difficulty of the mission ingame. Engines are open and varied enough these days to allow the player alternatives for every situation. They also present the choice of taking the path directly in front of the machine gun nest or avoiding it completely. That is what creates a difficulty setting.

    More adept players will want to try experimenting while more novice players might shy away from anything that will probably get them killed one hundred times.

    1. Re:How about removing difficulty modes in FPS? by robsie · · Score: 1

      Perhaps a learning curve mode, the computer detects how good you actually are, lists statistics at the end of the level and throws harder things at you as you progress through the game?

  19. The real solution... by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Aise from better AI, the real solution is two things:
    1) Split the difficulty level and the "extra stuff for the AI to cheat with" into two user controlled sliders. That way we can face the brilliant general without him getting an extra 30 starting troops, etc.

    2) Please, for the love of Zork, let us ADJUST THE DIFFICULTY ON THE FLY! I'm looking at you Dawn of War... Ditto for game speed in the non turn based ones.

    I can't ever win against the pc at the highest difficulty level on a big map, even with pause, but the next lower level is too easy :(
    I want to fight the easy one at the beginning, build up my army and then face the good opponent where it's strategy deciding the battle, not click speed.

  20. Re:Let the player make the game as hard as they wa by grantek · · Score: 1

    if you gain a new weapon, level, or ability, you want to feel supremely powerful for a little while

    Hehe - when I'm playing an engaging FPS and I come across a new weapon, I tend to get scared.

  21. Game AI by randomc0de · · Score: 1

    There are three areas AI is actually advancing - robotic control (MIT's learning heli's, fuzzy controllers), computational finance (billions of dollars being managed by humans augmented with AI's), and game design. Of those, only game AI is accessible to the average researcher. It's the future.

    --
    Three rights make a left. Freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly.
  22. Varaible difficulty for each aspect of gameplay by dleigh · · Score: 1

    System Shock 1 had separate difficulty sliders for Combat, Puzzles, Plot, and Cyber. If you found the Cyberspace too hard and the meat space combat too easy, you could set Cyber to 1 and Combat to 3. These sliders also went down to 0, so you could remove one aspect of the game entirely. If you didn't like the puzzles, set it to 0 and you won't have to do them.

  23. Difficulty option for warzone2100: by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    "No motherfucking out-of-nowhere impossible-to-shoot-down-in-time kill-absolutely-any-unit" planes in the second campaign mission 3. Fuck that and fuck whoever programmed it in.

  24. The problem with difficulty options by ledow · · Score: 1

    I couldn't read TFA because its filtered here for some reason, but I have several problems with difficulty options and AI (which, obviously, go hand-to-hand in most games).

    First, a lot of games program an absolutely brilliant AI to the best of their abilities, and then make it randomly "make mistakes" or be artificially and severely limited in its range of abilities. The classic example is snooker/pool games. The AI can do ANY shot absolutely perfectly, given a few seconds to calculate the physics. I know that even as far back as the first versions of Virtual Pool / Virtual Snooker there was no way to beat the top-end player because they could easily manage "147" and other perfect breaks and you wouldn't even get a shot to try to re-coup your loss. But the "basic" players in those games will quite happily miss a straight-line 8-ball pot because they have "been too good" lately, so they mess it up deliberately, and then when they are losing doing a four-cushion bounce shot with spin, jumping up on the rail to pot the ball, and end up in the exact position for the next ball. This just makes the human player feel alternately completely overwhelmed, or like there is no challenge. The fix is to make the AI aware of "difficult" shots versus "simple" shots and then to choose his shot and also adjust the scale of a random error occurring accordingly - an "amateur" trying a three ball curve shot will be miles off (and probably would never try it anyway), a "professional" trying a straight pot might be a pixel or two off but it would hardly matter. Some programs get this right, most don't.

    The other problem with AI is when the AI isn't actually anywhere near intelligent - it just blindly does the same thing (I've seen some game "AI" code which is nothing more than "if" statements and lists of buildings/units to build in a set order) but because it's been "souped-up", by doing things at speeds vastly beyond human capabilities, or by being given a deliberate advantage (e.g. in terms of money, capacity, hit points, strength, numbers etc.). If the human player had that speed or those capabilities, it would whop the AI. Doubling the computers hit points does not make it a better player, and does not make up for terrible AI. The fix for this is to send both the human and computer inputs through the same input layer (so it is, in effect, "playing" the game itself) and make sure that it can't send commands through that any faster than the average human (or a slightly above-average human on slightly harder difficulty levels) and NEVER any faster than the best human. It is already capable of being pixel-perfect and spotting every enemy on the screen, so it makes up for the human's better pattern-matching abilities, but it shouldn't be able to react any faster than a human (to make up for the computer's much quicker response times) and so turns, shoots, etc. are "ordered" at the same rate as a human clicking a mouse.

    The most frustrating problem, however, is an AI that just doesn't know how to react to a certain event. I just replayed Red Alert because it was released as freeware. In the first ten or so Allied levels, there is one mission, set inside a base with only infantry units on both sides, which relies on the human player discovering a Tanya at the other end of the map, not losing more than one or two infantry units and avoiding many groups of ten or twenty enemies that hunt them down on performing certain events. The only way to play it is to have a save/load button handy and to carefully take out every single enemy unit. The units never work this out and just follow their same set walking patterns.

    Then in the next mission, the computer has "free reign" of a large map and just sends airborne-units and the occasional tank at you. Literally, once every five minutes or so a tank or two would wander towards a set point, where you obviously place your turrets and best units, and commits suicide. In later levels the computer even uses its special buildings to make the tank "invincible" for a fe

  25. Difficulty is not complexity by 192939495969798999 · · Score: 1

    In a lot of modern games, the difficulty level is basically just more + faster. If you know what you have to do but just physically can't do it, that's not really a "difficulty" setting in the same way as adjusting the complexity or length of the puzzles to be solved. If "hard" required more brainpower and ingenuity instead of faster button-mashing, i'd be much more inclined to call that a good difficulty setting.

    --
    stuff |
    1. Re:Difficulty is not complexity by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      Mental difficulty is just like Physical Diffculty. The point to all this is that some people like "smashing buttons" and some other are like "using brain". It's just a matter of what you're searching when you play.

  26. good discussion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    There's a good discussion here. Too much in gaming lately is controlled and dictated by the "difficulty uber alles" people; the hardcore gamers who always, no matter what, insist everything's too easy and (erroneously) believe that difficulty yields fun.

    1. Re:good discussion by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

      > There's a good discussion here. Too much in gaming lately is controlled and dictated by the "difficulty uber alles" people; the hardcore gamers who always, no matter what, insist everything's too easy and (erroneously) believe that difficulty yields fun.

      Praise the lord, his AC prophet is here to tell us what is fun and what isn't.

  27. Force Unleashed by Devir · · Score: 1

    This game brought forth some ideas on difficulty. Perhaps they have it implemented and I've yet to explore.

    FU has some puzzles strewn about the world. Most keys are highlighted to where you just need to find out how to interact. 90% of the answers are given. You just need to find the right combo.
    It makes me think, that for RPG, or adventure games, where you need to find certain items, or interact in the world, that in "easy" mode, the answers are all highlighted in some way. turning up the difficulty, makes them highlight on mouse over, and the highest setting is like the Old School days, you'd need to click around, and "look around" to find the objects to interact.

    FPS games can be tweaked as well. You modify reaction time, accuracy, health, rate of fire and several other options. Tweak the settings per level increase and let the player realize the enemies just got a whole lot smarter on super hard.

  28. Anyone else remember Goldeneye for N64? by lupis42 · · Score: 1

    The harder missions were basically the same, but you had to fulfill more objectives, or not kill any innocent people, or accomplish the mission on a time limit. That was one of the most satisfying experiences I can recall in any FPS ever.

  29. Replays by tepples · · Score: 1

    Also, what do you do about situations where a player has played a game to certain spot and starts over... the game would assume that this player is far more advanced that he really is as he didn't make a single wrong move up to that point

    Randomize the game world slightly for each campaign, causing the player to have to make the mistakes inherent in exploration. Animal Crossing does this. Diablo does this.

  30. Street Fighter 2 by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    Does anyone else find that in Street Fighter 2, the computer opponent takes nearly twice the same amount of HP as you do?

    It annoys me when computer opponents are not smarter, just stronger.

  31. Re:Spilt cpu intelligent and cpu handy cap / cheat by Fallingcow · · Score: 1

    EXACTLY what I came here to say.

    Especially in historical or war simulation RTS or turn-based games, I want the AI to be smart as hell but not to have any "fake" advantages. The Total War series is especially annoying in this regard; the AI is notoriously stupid in battle, and turning up the difficulty just gives their units better stats. I don't want the AI to "cheat". I want it to play smart. Ambush me, try something a little wild once in a while, attempt some real strategy but be ready to fall back on "charge and hope for the best" if I counter it.

  32. Impossible level by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    One should always implement the level where there is no way of complete it unless you have tried it at least a couple of hundred times. After once completing it, one also should be able to do it again with not too much effort.

  33. The World Ends With You has some of the best by Anonymous Coward · · Score: 0

    The World Ends With You on the DS has some of the best customizable difficulty settings that I've ever seen. You can choose to control both screens or one, adjust your level, adjust speed, adjust difficulty, and change the AI on your partner as well.