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The Stigma of a Tech Support Background
An anonymous reader writes "Since the last semester of college I've been working as a first line tech support agent. At first it was just a way to earn some extra money; then it became a way to scrape by until I could find myself a real job. By now (almost two years in), it's beginning to feel like a curse. The problem I'm having is that no matter how many jobs I apply for, and no matter how well-written my applications are, I can't seem to get further than the first interview. For some reason it seems a lot of employers will completely overlook my degree in computer engineering, the fact that I can show them several personal projects that I've worked on, and that I can show them that I clearly possess the skills they are looking for. I've had several employers tell me to my face, and in rejection letters, that my 'professional background' isn't what they're looking for even when they've clearly stated that they're looking for recent graduates. In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years. I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems and if there are any good ways to get employers to realize that my experience from tech support is actually a good thing and not a sign of incompetence."
No offense intended, but at least the tech support people I talk to on the phone just follow a script (which make you follow), so to me first line support means 'a hurdle I need to pass asap'. Last time I needed "support" they asked me to reboot my computer, then press the windows key, move the mouse to 'run', then type c-m-d then press enter, then type in the black box 'i-p-c-o-n-f-i-g', etc. This was my telco and the problem was I didn't have service. The woman on the phone said they only supported Windows and because I said I had linux she wouldn't open a ticket. I had to fake replacing the linux computer with a windows one ("luckily" I had a work laptop around) before having a ticket open.
Now, I'm not saying this is your case. But it's hard to believe that these kind of people are any good when it comes to computers. [I'm not saying they're stupid]
Two years doing that - looks like they just can't find a better job. If they didn't find another job elsewhere and they didn't get promoted in their absolutely low level job...well, it doesn't scream 'talent', does it?
You obviously had a chance to ask for more details, did you?
Anyway...this is what I'd think if I was interviewing you, but I might be completely wrong. I'd like to think you would have a fair chance to change my mind, though.
In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years.
Are you a good tech? If so, why haven't you been promoted? Or at least assigned to head tech or second level support?
No offense, but when I did the same thing as you I was in "Team Leader" training in 3 months. All call centers I have worked at (only 2) and most that I have heard of, have enough turn over that by 2 years, a "Computer Engineer" should be moving up the ranks.
I think part of the Peter Principle talks about how lower level or entry level jobs are usually done well by those that wouldn't do well in management or more difficult jobs. Also, perhaps you are not a good tech, but a great developer. This all might be working against you, to no real fault of your own.
Perhaps take a part time job as a developer... advertise that you are willing to work part-time for no benefits and that you know some modern languages; that you are willing to work the night shift doing testing; that you will work for $int_cheap_labor per hour - something to get your foot in the door and working wth professionals.
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs. There must be a little more to it. Try to advance in your current postion, or broaden your *professional work* experience (not personal projects).
No comprende? Let me type that a little slower for you...
Maybe you need a dry run with an interview expert to evaluate/grade your performance.
Its very possible you are committing one or more "interview success killers" and don't even know it. It may have nothing to do with your resume.
In my experience, the best solution is to leave it out. If your experience is limited to JUST call-center work, list every responsibility you had while leaving out the fact that it was tech support. If you can dance around it well enough (And the company name doesn't give it away), you get all the benefits without any of the drawbacks. Short Version: Lie.
But clearly you have something better to say...
For some reason that unfortunate perception just keeps being spread by the people who use tech support.
The person who interviewed you was the one who called you two weeks ago. They said, "the computer beep is too loud" and you said, "ok. first, we have to reinstall windows from the recovery disk."
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I started out working TS, too (I am currently a developer)...and companies offering most of the positions I was applying for understood that a couple years of experience in TS was a great boon because at the end of the day no matter how good you are as a developer, your software has to get used by people; people that get frustrated, people that have certain patterns of doing things that aren't the same as engineers - and a lot of engineers just don't understand that until they have to deal with those people day in and day out.
... i.e. Tech Support.
I am nearing the point in my career where I will have to start *hiring* coders, and one of the first things I am going to look for is a background in bridging the gap between "software systems" and "people"
If the positions you are applying to don't seem to get that then I can only offer 2 thoughts:
1. They don't understand software development that well, so you should probably not work for them.
2. *Explain* what I just said above in your interview.
Really, your career is now in tech. support and given the usual turnover in support staff, 2 years is a long time to be on the bottom rung (please don't take this as an offense, it's just an observation). It does show that for whatever reason, you haven't progressed in your current employment.
If you're looking for a career change (from what you're doing now) then the good news is that your CV is "marketable" as you're getting interviews, the problem must be what the interviewer sees when you're in the interview. Sounds like it's time for a makeover before you become institutionalised.
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People have usually decided whether they're going to hire you after the first couple of minutes. They often don't really know the reason for rejecting other than "a feeling", but still feel the need to justify their decision.
Work on interview technique.
I was a developer for 10 years then decided to get a new job. I got lots of rejection before I landed a new position. I think that's just the way it goes. I probably got rejected 20-30 times. If they didn't call back, oh well. I had plenty of interviews that seemed to go just fine, then never got called back. It could be the economy, there's probably lots of qualified candidates looking for work. Just keep trying, make getting a job your full time job, and you'll have one before you know it. The current one I have was landed through a headhunter, I'm making twice what I was previously with a far better working environment. Don't get discouraged, I think lots of rejection is par for the course.
Personally, I wouldn't hire you either - you have no experience.
"How can I get experience if no one will hire me?"
Well, you have an /excellent/ choice of career paths in computers, because you don't need a benevolent company to hire you in order to get experience. In fact, in my own hiring, it's the experience that happens /outside/ of a "job" that makes the most difference. If you really want to succeed, do something. If you are trying to be a programmer, write that project you've been wanting to do; don't wait. Once you have it written, that goes on your resume. I wrote a /HORRIBLE/ stupid graphing calculator for Windows CE and started selling it, and that is absolutely what got me hired as a coder. Don't have the werewithal to make a whole project? Contribute to existing open-source packages, and reap the same benefits.
Or maybe you're looking to become a network engineer instead of a programmer. Set up your own virtual cluster of machines running under KVM, make it do fun things, show off your ability to create a secure environment, and put it on your resume as experience. Even better, when they ask you about it, you can offer them a copy of the entire setup on a DVD, with all the virtual machines...
Either one of those scenarios would get you hired by me, regardless of the rest of your resume -- not only does it show definitively you can do what you want to do... far more important is the fact that it demonstrates you love doing this stuff; you love it enough to do it on your own. That is key.
You're lucky - you've got a field where the cost of doing it "in your garage" is absolutely minimal.
Call center experience /is/ good experience, in my personal opinion. I had early jobs at call centers. I still value that experience as a developer, because it helps me remember that people are idiots who will mess things up if you give them the slightest opportunity. This is critical to keep in mind when developing anything. But it's no substitute for actual experience in programming. I think you can sell your experience in call centers to someone who will hire you to do other things, but you'd best have some additional selling points, because while that experience has some value, it's not a hiring-value.
Find a tech support in the company that you want to work for, THEN when the engineering position in that company opens up, apply for it.
That way, you already have your foot in the door, plus you will already be familiar with the business processes in place, so that gives you an advantage over outsiders trying to get the job.
In your case, your resume and your degree are not going to get you a job, especially if it has been 2 years. If you're more than 6 months out of school, most places consider you an "experienced professional". As far as I can tell, the only way to overcome lack of experience fresh out of school if you don't know anybody is to have a 4.0 GPA.
I'm coming up on 6 years since I graduated with a computer engineering degree, and I'm still working as a systems administrator. The closest thing to CpE I see are crazy perl regex's or the odd Java code when an application on one of my servers "suddenly stops working".
100% of the graduates I know that were employed in engineering when they graduated or shortly thereafter had either experience through co-ops/internships, stellar grades and well known to professors, or they knew somebody who was already working where they were hired on.
That's what it is all about. I know this isn't addressing specifically what you asked, but it does address how to get a job. The answer is the post topic.
While people can and do get jobs cold, you find far more get it through some kind of in. You know someone at a company, or someone who knows someone. A personal introduction goes a hell of a long way.
So what you really need to be doing is shaking down all your contacts. Talk to your friends, family, people you've worked with, professors, etc. See if they know anyone in the industry you want to work in. Have them introduce you, then see if maybe they know of a group that'd like to hire you.
You may even find a job springs up where there wasn't one before. Someone says "Well we aren't looking right now, but you know, I think you'd work well in this group so let me talk to them." They might not be actively looking, but if introduced to someone good, they decide to hire that person.
...and, unfortunately, I have no useful advice to offer.
I worked tech support at a (then) Fortune 100 pc "assembler" and seller, including as a member of their corporate tech support group. After I took a job on the company's web team, I was laid off, went back to school full time and got a master's in comp sci.
I tried to find a job developing embedded systems, preferably in defense industry. I had / have a security clearance, decent grades, significant work experience... and finally after 18 months, one offer from a small company which I quickly took. Nine months later, they laid off 40% of their engineering department...
I never had anybody figuratively "turn up their nose" at my tech support experience. I think they just looked at it as non-specific work experience, i.e. "could hold a job for extended period of time without getting fired."
Since then, I've found very well paying work that is still in the IT industry, but really isn't what I had hoped to find.
Now I am in my early 40s and prospects of finding the kind of work I was interested in (and still am) are quickly fading.
I am trying to find satisfaction for my itch in personal projects.
I don't know what it is, but there must be something that I have been lacking or failed to show / demonstrate in interviews.
For what it is worth, I wish you well in your search.
If you are getting interviews then the problem is not with the resume, but with the interview.
You may want to check with the school you went to if they have anyone that could help you.
Failing that, you may be able to find resources online with key points to remember on an interview.
Also, many companies do tend to think that anyone that is in tech support for 2 years is because they could not do better, so you may want to look for a small company to work for while you can add some other tittle to the resume.
Specially think of a small ISP, or one where they may let you do other projects in addition to tech support.
In general small companies will have you involved with much more than tech support, even if that is what you are hired for. Larger companies tend to be more specialized so if you get hired for position X, it is little harder to move.
Any small company will, but there may not be as much technology beyond support for you to do. With an ISP there is a higher chance of you getting non tech support tasks.. even on the smallest of ISPs.
I can't find a job because I have no experience. That is pretty bad when you first leave college, but after several years companies feel you're unemployable because no one hired you. My only hope for making any income is to create my own profitable software projects.
God spoke to me.
If I had to guess, I would say that:
1) You smoke. People who work in tech support smoke.
2) Do you drink and / or drug? My experience with TS folks is that they tend to have a higher rate of both than the norm. Do you happen to fit any stereotypes of either of these? I have long hair for example - people assume I'm a pot smoking hippie.
3) You probably spoke negatively of your current employer. This is because TS sucks. However, this is a huge warning sign for employers.
4) You probably think you are above your current job, and it comes out in the interview process. People don't like people who are like this.
If I am totally off the mark, my apologies. If even one of these sound like you, then you may want to think about what you can do about it.
PS> Being a smoker isn't ever going to be the stated reason you didn't get a job. I don't think it can be, officially. Still, it's the same as showing up wearing too much cologne - people take their sense of smell seriously. Smokers generally don't smell good (too much smoke, overcompensating mint, etc) and it does hurt their odds of success. It's not something I would consider in an interview but I've watched it happen to smart people who should have been moving ahead.
This problem is not about technical qualifications. In fact, you see this sort of thing in food service, sports, journalism (real journalism, not blogs), photography, building construction... you name it.
You are pretty much screwed. You've been had cheap and people's perceptions are so, so hard to change.
Prospective employers only want you for what you have done and aren't interested in anything else.
I recommend that you omit your employment history from your job applications and resumes. Explain that your parent's financed your education and provided your food and housing. You never had to work.
We're not talking about too much time, here.
Pretend that you've been in prison for 2 years. That's far less embarrassing.
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There are two solutions:
1. Leave the helpdesk job off your resume. If they ask why the gap, make something up.
2. So you've been working two years in helpdesk without being offered a promotion? Either the company's promotion process is broken or you are. Where I work, everybody starts out at helpdesk, no matter what position they are applying for. Even if it's just for a week or two, you start out answering phones and move up from there. Some people do, some don't, some actually like helpdesk.
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs.
I've experienced a similar stigma working with Big Iron: "Oh, you're a mainframe programmer? Well, we don't do much of that anymore, most of our stuff is object-oriented..." Nevermind the fact that I've been doing C++ for more than a decade. I experienced a similar stigma when I got into embedded development. My degree says computer science, not IBM mainframes.
Some people just can't wrap their head around the fact that you aren't tech support. Personally, I would not put anything on my resume that wasn't career related. The fact that you have tech support on your resume probably makes them think that you think it has something to do with the position offered. They don't need to know you worked as a tech support - sure, you might have to put it on the application, but it should stay off the resume.
The next time it happens, you might want to end the conversation like this:
Them: Well, we're interested in hiring an engineer... Not so much tech support...
You: Have you ever worked in fast food? I thought so! I'm not interested in working for a burger flipper, either...
Believe it or not, I've said worse to an interviewer...
The society for a thought-free internet welcomes you.
After several years as a developer, I found a job in tech support. Now, years later, I still love it. This is not your typical call center stuff: my customers are engineers. I am respected, the pay is good, the customers are fun, and the challenges change frequently. Many tech support engineers use their position to get their foot in the door and skill up and move on to development, but I'm pretty happy in support.
- you'll have more responsibilities...
- work long and late hours...
- get paid less than you expected ('cause you're - gonna get a position that will somehow won't qualify for overtime)...
- spend sleepless nights worrying about some system or code that's been kicking you ass...
and you'll wistfully remember those carefree days shortly after graduation when you had a carefree job that you could leave at the office. all joking aside, you'll find another job with a better opportunity for advancement and better pay. what are you, 22-24? give it another year or two before you panick... you have a scant amount of experience, and in these economically tough times, it's likely that even though an employer says "recent graduates" they have a really high expectation that can only be filled by someone with more experience.
get to know people within the field/market you want to work in... show the person you want to work for that you have a pair of stones and you have the talent to back it up! go to trade shows and press the flesh, email prospective employers and ask if they have an opportunity for you, canvas your friends and family, church, coffeehouse, etc.
did you every take a job hunting/resume writing/interviewing class in college? they used to have these life lesson classes in high school, and i'm sure they have them in colleges as well... IMHO you might need coaching in life skills:
- learn to start and hold conversations with strangers
- learn to speak without using "umms", "aahs" and "you knows"
- learn to read body language
- learn how to take an interview
and quit complaining on slashdot about your career shortcomings, man up and figure it out!
three can keep a secret, if two are dead - benjamin franklin
To be fair, though, why should it matter?
1. Most important of all, you can give the guy a test, you know? _If_ he spews the usual stuff that spells "idiot monkey who couldn't even understand that list right" -- like that rebooting solves most problems, and activating FSAA is a fix for graphics problems (hey, rendering glitches are called artefacts too, and FSAA solves rendering artefacts. Genuine piece of "advice" I've heard.) -- then, by all means, don't hire him. But _if_ he happens to know his stuff, why does it matter what job he had before?
Especially because...
2. In that race to scrape the bottom of the proverbial barrel to save costs, since at least the 90's I've seen less qualified people in all sorts of IT and programming jobs. Some places will not only hire a summmarily retrained burger flipper if he asks for less money, they'll _prefer_ one.
So, you know, wtf? They'd hire someone who worked at McDonalds and lied about having taken a "Java for dummies" course, but they won't even listen to someone who's worked in tech suppport? Something seems amiss there.
3. Don't get me wrong. Yes, probably 90% of the L1 tech support guys are just the cheapest monkeys who can use a phone and read a list. Badly. I'm not saying all are smart and competent, or anything equally silly. But I'm saying there is a variation in competence in any job, ya know? The trouble is the other 10% who just happened to need a job and nothing else was available. E.g., if said person was still in college, I don't see that awfully many other jobs who overlap well with that. You're not really going to take a game dev job and pull 80 hour weeks, for example, when you _also_ have to learn at the same time.
Heck, even as job descriptions go, it varies substantially between companies. You can't paint them all with the same brush. E.g., as ISP tech support goes, I've seen mine go recently from abysmal to guys who can actually solve simple problems without going through that canned list. I know, it's the first sign of the Apocalypse ;)
Even getting a promotion isn't necessarily a given, if all you have is two years. A _lot_ of support and generally IT jobs have been offshored in the last years, so in some places you'd be just happy to keep your job for two years. Because everything above you is also getting reduced faster than normal attrition. Plus, there's just plain old statistical flukes. I've worked (as a programmer) for a small company where the tech support guys just had no path to advance any higher, for example. The only job above L1 support were us the programmers, and as statistical flukes happen with small numbers of people, past a point no more programmers were hired, no more managers were needed either to promote some, and nobody quit for some 3 years at a point.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
I used to have a friend who was a master of fudge. He was great at making up qualifications for jobs he wanted, and after a few years, he'd amassed a long list of jobs he'd gotten that way. The only problem was, he'd lost them all for the same reason: they kept finding out he'd lied to them and fired his sorry little ass. Once, he got a job as a trainee for tech support at an ISP; he didn't last until lunch on his first day.
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In other words, you were hired for a job that you were woefully unqualified for?
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Disclaimer-I am not a developer, I am a CAD designer.
My experience getting into my field took a little sidepath as well. I am currently working as a designer, but my last job was as a *cringe* firedog. But when I began shopping myself around after graduation I barely mentioned my time there. Honestly it had no bearing on the jobs I was applying for outside the 'yep this guy understands computers' checkbox. The only reason I stayed there as long as I did was that I was very choosy about the kind of company I wanted to work for. What got me the phone calls with offers rather than letters of condolences was my 7 years as a tour guide. Again the job had no bearring on my actual career, but I did develop excellent people skills. These translated remarkably well into the interview.
Frankly my point is unless you have resume experience as long as your arm, companies will only hire people they like. Present yourself in a polite, responsible manner. Treat the interviewer and their personal space with the upmost of respect. And above all do whatever you have to (short of tequila breath) to not be nervous. Confidence is key. Not arrogance, confidence. Practice your answers to the questions you know will be asked. If need be, be a little dismissive of your time in tech support. Explain that while you genuinely enjoyed the opportunity to help people, your ultimate goal was a position similar to the one you're applying for. And remember still to be yourself, turnover rates for employees that are completely different than their interview personas tend to be above the norm.
Okay I made that last part up, but it sure sounds true!
-=Bang Bang=-
on what you were doing and demonstrate your troubleshooting skills
I don't how it is in the US, but here in Europe no law will force you to list every single jobs that you have worked on. In fact nobody expects you to. Generally you don't give out an exhaustive résumé, instead you put focus on highlight a couple of entries that you think relevant to the job you're applying for.
So a different approach would be to just remove the Tech Support from the begin of the résumé. Focus more on the academic achievement (Titles, Awards, Publications, etc.). Also on all the various opensource/personal project that you have developed or contributed (specially the ones now in production stage), trying to highlight the diversity of tools that you master.
Of course at some point of the interview the question will come what you have been doing all this time between graduation and the present.
The best is to only mention the job then and explain that you haven't considered your current job worthy of getting mentioned on a CV for that peculiar application (so they understand that you *do* indeed work, you just have something better and more interesting to pitch about you).
Maybe mention then too, that people tend to misrepresent what your job consist and tend to focus on it instead of your actual skill, thus you choose to not mention it in the curriculum. You can subsequently jump on the topic on what you think you've done actually cool that people would misrepresent : mention the tech understanding the out-of-the-box hacking/fixing, etc. so the employer gets the point that you were not a "follow the script" drool-drone.
"Sufficiently advanced satire is indistinguishable from reality." - [Tips: 1DrYakQDKCQ6y52z6QbnkxHXAocMZJE61o ]
"I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems . . ."
By "similar problems," I take it you mean, at least in part, pointless interviews conducted by H.R. weenies who don't know a USB port from a glass transistor?
They're robotic wind-ups, much the same as the typical third-world first-level "support" tech (you know--start with "A"--> If answer is "X" go to "B" else go to "C" unless "Y" is present). Same brain cells, different script.
You're after the hiring manager, not some dweeb with a B-school degree, so keep your eye on the ball. The trick is to get by the gatekeeper, so you sometimes gotta . . . lie a little.
You may find it's easier to leave the tech support stuff off the resume and just lean on the recent-grad-Comp Sci thing. You're also up against a shelf life problem in that if it takes too long to connect, you're no longer "recent." Now you know how people end up in grad school and even PhD's by the age of 27.
Never underestimate the value of a solid list of personal references. Any good or cool projects you did for anyone are worth mentioning.
The help-desk thing was just to pay the light bill, right? Forty years ago, some of us drove trucks or dug ditches or went military long enough to soak up whatever they were passing out. The military experience on my resume in the 1970s was there solely to show where I went to school, and fell off after 10 years. A college degree is good on a resume forever.
You busted your hump and did it the hard way. Why dilute that effort by mentioning what you did to pay the rent? Just a thought.
It's not going to make you feel any better, but things are a lot tougher now than in my day (1960s-1990s mini/micro computers). Sure, troubleshooting discreet circuits from a schematic and looking at an O'scope and little blinking lights was an entry level skill, but electronics isn't exactly a black art. The math is mostly high-school, and anything else you need to know you could dig out of a book. The coding was assembler, and you didn't have to deal with any really huge bunches of code.
About all I can do is wish you luck--It's a shame to see someone work so hard to get the paper only to be blown off by interviewers who obviously don't get it.
If you weren't being hired then what DID you do? Well? If you need experience then you need experience not money. Go work on some open source project, volunteer for some non-profit, find some somewhat related company (then try to wiggle yourself into the proper department/make connections), go to local software events to make connections, meet people who may work in the field, work on your own projects to improve your skills and so on. Of course you should have been doing all of this in college or simply been getting internships so it's really your fault for getting out of college without experience. Remember that in life it matter who you know, what people think you know and what you actually know in that order. Don't obsess about the second of those when it's the first that you really should be thinking about.
Don't complain about not being able to find a job if you're doing little more than sitting on your ass all day.
I'd like to also say I agree with the other reply in that if you have no other options then just "stretch the truth." However if you do that then make bloody sure you actually have the skills to back up your claims or you'll just be digging yourself an even bigger hole.
I did some free lance tech support for a while and had this guy call me and tell ME what the problem must be why his computer won't turn on.
He kept saying he thought the hard drive was fried (mind you he'd not had the computer out of the box 6 hours yet), then it was a bad monitor (huh?), then he was sure there must have been a virus loaded on his machine when it was made.
You know where this is going right?
So, I tell him when I get to his house that it's a $75 charge for the first hour and then $50 per hour thereafter, $75 in advance and that if it took me 5 minutes to figure it out, there was no rebates.
So I look at this mess of wires, keyboard on top of the monitor, mouse dangling by it's cord and he's still trying to tell me what is wrong with it. I checked and yep it was plugged into his surge protector and the surge protector was plugged into the wall.
He just never flipped the switch on his surge protector. I swear he cursed me up one side, down the other and then threatened to sue me for fraud if I didn't give him back his money.
--
Oh well, Bad Karma and all . . .
Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy.
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Honestly, I hate to be mean but you need to know the truth. If you're getting any kind of interview, the problem isn't your resume it's your interview skills. You wouldn't get an interview if they weren't ok with the tech support background.
The resume gets you in the door, the interview skills get you the job.
Well, NCR did screw with a lot of people after AT&T bought them in the 80's. They are not the humanely profitable(nor innovative) employer they once were. Now they make do with clone machines and Dell/Gateway/3rd World Country rebrands.
That, and they've allowed a certain university roll over the town's history (Building 26). There is no good blood that exists that hasn't been forcibly removed from NCR.
Twitter supports and protects racists - by smearing their critics with the "Hate Speech" label.
"First line technical support". Have you ever called first line technical support? The most common impression of FLTS is they can't manage walking and chewing gum at the same time. I know that's unfair because in almost every case FLTS must follow scripts written more with a view of "idiot customers AND idiot tech" than just "idiot customer" rather than "There's a real problem here that needs to be solved".
First step is to get out of first tier support. Or support entirely, which is what you're trying to do.
There are local charitiable organisations that need tech help and can't afford it. Like your food bank, shelter, red cross, hell, even the BBB, NPR, PBS, or Red Cross. Go to them and offer to help with tech issues. They likely don't know squat about tech, but if you are even half way effective, they'll write a glowing recommendation because you bailed them out of trobles they couldn't solve themselves. You help not just yourself, but others that are in dire straits. For nothing else, that's worthy right there.
Example: I wrote a customer master module to be used in accounting for customers, vendors, shippers, anywhere it was needed to tie a company/person/vendor/whathave you with multiple addresses, purchase orders, sales orders, trouble tickets, history (careful to not over normalize so as to update historical records with current info) blah blah blah. End result, I used this exact module over and over and over again for pledge drives, charity auctions, setting port-a-pottys, vending machines, you name it.
I know a gal that started out as first line tech support. Climbed to managing the help desk, from there, went to web master, and is now a director of IT somewhere else. All in four years. And she's good... really good.
It can be done. If someone wants to type cast you, it's because you let them do it and don't show them why they are wrong... or they are simply grossly stupid and unobservant. In the fist case, you've only yourself to blame, in the second, better you don't work there anyway.
Necessity is the plea for every infringement of human freedom. It is the argument of tyrants; it is the creed of slaves.
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Not hardly! The competition for academic positions is insane! It's not like the streets are filled with Ph.D.s in C. Sci. living in boxes, but getting a tenure-track position even at a community college is incredibly competitive.
Given that your professional background consists of working in a call center, and that you probably aren't applying for call center positions... I mean, you can't see the mismatch here?
Unless I were facing an extreme shortage of applicants... I'd agree with them.
But what you can't show them is any experience, nor can you show them any initiative - having simply stuck with the same very low level job.
If you made it to the first interview then your background (in tech support) isn't the problem. The interviewer's time is worth too much to spend it interviewing the dozens of applicants whose background indicated a problem.
No, the problem is you. Either your presentation is poor (did you dress in a suit? conservative tie? do you smell? have open pustules? how long is your hair?), your mad computer engineering skillz don't add up to what you think they do OR (and this last one is very common) you didn't exhibit a can-do attitude.
Did you disdain your tech support background? It may be that the company is looking for a junior developer to interface with an upscale client, help with the testing, implement a little of the the easy stuff but mostly translate requirements for the senior devs. If you truly have the skills, that's as good a bridge as any. Better really: a cross-disciplinary role puts you in a controlling position, where your talent (if you have it) will shine.
The worst person I've ever interviewed explained that in a systems administration role there should never be a reason why he'd be expected to stay after 5 pm. The second worst explained that he was no stranger to keeping a cot in his office to deal with routinely long hours. The former indicated a bad attitude combined with poor judgment: an unrealistic assessment of a system administrator's job. The latter indicated a fellow who worked harder when I wanted someone to work smarter... a quality sysadmin prevents more fires than he fights. If you're fighting enough fires to need a cot in your office, you're not up to the task.
My favorite line in an interview is: "Point me at the problem that's giving you the most grief. I have a broad range of expertise and I'm ready to put it to use where it will best benefit you."
Yes, there is some reluctance to hire folks outside of their background. I recently made the transition from the systems administration track to software development track, so I've experienced it. Nevertheless, the only interview that didn't generate a job offer was one where the company specifically did not want a software developer.
Moderating "-1, Disagree" is simple censorship. Have the guts to post your opinion.
A lot of people here have contributed useful advice on the technical aspect of the situation.
One big lesson I've learned this year is *huge* value of personal relationships. I knew it was important before, but now I'm really beginning to appreciate the magnitude of it.
I think a lot of us nerd and geek types grew up independent and idealistic... perhaps not pursuing many group activities because we could sense a great deal of bs required in such things (saying things you don't mean, kissing butt, holding your tongue). We're smart enough to realize what a big silly game it can be. Us geeky types are principle-oriented... we wouldn't want to drawn into playing that game. As an adult, you look around and see that the same thing very much exists there too.
Geeks expect our intelligence and skills to get us everywhere, but personal relationships and how people perceive you are the things that will give you opportunities.
You need to develop all sorts of contacts. Get involved with many different groups. Talk more with the more distant family members (cousins are generally a good one). Don't be shy about putting yourself into situations you're not comfortable in, and don't be shy about asking for something you would like or need. Start doing personal favors for people other than your closest friends. If you're at a party where there are people you don't know, make the effort to start and carry on a conversation with them.
Learn to take genuine interest in others, and they will remember you.
Also, there's usually a problem with that kind of generalizations. I mean, by the same logic, someone who's a man will like women, but you'd be awfully wrong about 10% of the population there.
At any rate, as I was saying, they _can_ just give the guy a test, so why is it even necessary to reach for lame generalizations and guesswork there? Instead of guessing whether a guy is competent based on his previous job, star sign, numerology score, racial profile, or any other BS, how about just asking and seeing for yourself? I mean:
- if he's going for programmer, ask him to write a quick FizzBizz
- if he claims to be an architect guru, ask him when he _wouldn't_ use patterns X, Y and Z. Weeds out the Cargo Cult architects like a charm.
- if he's going for DBA, ask him, say, about the auto-tuning since Oracle 10g or whatever apropriate
- if he's going for WebSphere admin, ask him about configuring a cluster and, say, how do you configure an EJB as singleton in the high-availability manager
Etc.
And I'm not just saying that because some ex-L1 monkey could actually be competent (greater miracles have been known to happen), but also because someone coming from some great job could be a Wally. There are entirely too many places where you can keep a job by just having a butt to fill a chair, and even more where a little social engineering is all that's needed. There are people who keep their job by pretending to be the boss's best friend, or the best friend of some nerd who'll then write his programs too, etc.
According to one article I've seen, about 3 out of 4 programmers can't actually program worth beans and actually do more harm than good to the projects they're in. According to another study, a bit over 2 out of 3 didn't know the language they're paid to program in. That bad.
So hiring someone just because he had a job like that, seems stupid.
I could understand it, if guesswork was the only choice. But when you can put the guy in front of a cloned computer and ask him to demonstrate those l33t skillz, why not do just that? You can even have a laptop and a stack of pre-cloned HDDs (e.g., with the same mis-tuned database if you hire a DBA), and just swap them between interviews.
A polar bear is a cartesian bear after a coordinate transform.
HR drones are mainly a problem prior to the interview. BTW, I generally bypass them.
At every place I've ever interviewed, my first face-to-face contact after the receptionist was a technical person. (usually the potential manager, sometimes a potential co-worker)
The receptionist asks who you are there to see, calls them, they come get you, etc.
To a certain degree, I actually want to get filtered out by the people that expect a suit. I don't think this has happened to me, but it wouldn't be a bad thing. Such places would be unpleasant to work at.
BTW, it's not a plain white Hanes T-shirt with holes and armpit stains, nor one that advertizes beer!
If it's possible, have you thought about trying to move within your company? Tell them about your career aspirations, perhaps there are some opportunities there. It could be the foot in the door that you need.
Don't worry about rocking the boat. With your experience you could always find another tech-support job.
I've run into this time and time again. I've been mostly-unemployed (I'm told I should call this "self employed" or such) for the past year due to similar "shortcomings" which were either outside my ability to control (company layoffs shortly after starting) or, as you describe, resulting in a negative stigma.
My experience/training is more in IT than EE type work, but I've still not managed to escape the stigma. A friend, an animator, who has had a much more tumultuous employment history, with many more gaps, but has no problem picking up a new job whenever he wants one (and while he's talented, he's not a complete cut above the rest).
These are a couple guesses as to why this is happening to the both of us (and apparently many others):
1) Companies are very, very picky about hiring anyone for "computer related" jobs. The only thing I can figure is that HR types have been taught that IT/CS/EE = diploma mill hacks and shysters.
2) There really is a glut of IT/CS/EE graduates out there, for what the market can provide. Maybe, maybe not - but it seems to me that there are a lot of "entry level" IT/CS jobs which end up going to people with a fair amount of experience. I certainly think there are a lot fewer jobs out there right now than graduates, at least based on what I've heard from recruiters/etc.
3) HR types might just not know what they're looking at, or what they're looking for, when they look for technical people. They might prefer hiring someone with a more traditional degree who they think can "cut it".
4) Indian H1B workers. Who knows?
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
I won't go quite that far, but I've noticed that in interviews where my "give a damn" quotient and general interest in the position is low, I tend to get job offers. That might have something to do with the display of confidence,
An approach I've taken in the last couple interviews is somewhere between your (I suspect, overstated) example and the traditional "suit, tie, close shave, styled hair" look. Basically, it's a suit with a dress shirt, top button unbuttoned, no tie, casual shoes. The hair goes unbrushed (air dried - I keep it short) and the stubble is left there for around 12-24 hours or so, slightly more than "5 o'clock shadow" (so it's visible, but it's not quite unkempt - I suppose it'd vary depending on how quickly one's hair grows).
Given that it seems that most HR types are women these days, it works pretty well. I s'pose.
~/ssh slashdot.org ssh: connect to host slashdot.org port 22: too many beers
Remember: You don't need to tell the employer the job is a volunteer job unless they ask and volunteering for 5 hours a week as a database administrator for the local office of the American Cancer Society (or another well know charity) looks great on your resume.
I hope you don't mind if I added you to my growing listing of recent graduates who can not find a job. You are the second person I have added just today. The dice discussion boards are filled with people in the same situation, here is a brief listing:
http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:news_and_commentary
Can you believe that corporate CEOs has the gall to sit before congress and claim that there are sever shortages of US IT workers? The pop-media is flooded with articles about how IT jobs are recession proof, and the US IT field is red hot and growing faster than ever.
Would should employers hire US IT workers, when offshore labor is cheaper? Both candidates are strong supporters of allowing more guest workers.
Who are you, Don Johnson? Is your Testerossa also parked out front? (That's basically the look you described)
Flappinbooger isn't my real name