Linux Rescues Battery Life On Vista Notebooks From Dell

nerdyH writes "Dell is preparing to ship two enterprise-oriented Windows Vista notebooks with an interesting feature — a built-in TI OMAP (smartphone) processor that can power instantly into Linux. The 'Latitude ON' feature is said to offer 'multi-day' battery life, while letting users access email, the web, contacts, calendar, and so on, using the notebook's full-size screen and keyboard. I wonder if someday we'll just be able to plug our phones into our laptops, switching to the phone's processor when we need to save battery life? Or, maybe x86 will just get a lot more power-efficient. Speaking at MontaVista's Vision event today, OLPC spokesperson and longtime kernel hacker Deepak Saxena said the project is aiming for 10-20 hours of battery life during active use, on existing hardware (AMD Geode LX800 clocked at 500MHz, with 1GB of Flash and 256MB of RAM)."

Comments

eh

[Gewalt]

Well, I hope it's at least damn pretty, cause being the runner up to "the real os" isn't really something to be proud of. But if its flashy enough, then people will like it and will increase their opinion of linux. Then again... is it going to say its Linux?

Re:eh

[I.M.O.G.]

It doesn't need to be pretty - if I can turn a system on in near-zero boot time and do useful things like access email or open a document... Point me to the cash register, I'm ready to hand over my wallet.

Re:eh

[Gewalt]

It doesn't need to be pretty - if I can turn a system on in near-zero boot time and do useful things like access email or open a document... Point me to the cash register, I'm ready to hand over my wallet.

Ok, *points to store.apple.com* My laptop takes about 2 seconds from "open lid" to "network interface is up and browsser is online" and "documents can be opened".

Now, granted, that's using sleep, not shutdown. But seriously, when sleep actually works as advertised..... Why the fuck would you ever want to shut down?

Re:eh

[mevets]

Maybe dell will fork a design to leave out the x86 and assorted junk. A notebook sized iPhone-like device with huge battery life would be pretty cool....

Re:eh

[Lumpy]

Actually I have a demo laptop I take with me to convince people. It's my work laptop it dual boots into Ubuntu and Vista.

I show aunt millie Vista.. she oohs, ahhs, and clicks on a few things, I explain how the pop-ups are making sure that things she does are what she wants and tries t o keep her safe.

I then boot into ubuntu and she goes, "wow! why does it boost so much faster?" then she oohs nd aahs even louder playing with ubuntu until I show her the "add software" item in the programs menu and say "you cant buy software for Ubuntu. You get it all free right here on this list, and had her install the Gramps family history program that really excited her. aunt millie installed a complex program on Linux. she cant install most anything on windows.

needless to say, she wants me to install Ubuntu on her brand new computer and blow out the new Vista home install. I have done this to ALL my family that I support, except for my brother that must access a SCADA system for work they all use Ubuntu. And my brother had to downgrade to XP because the SCADA software is incompatable with Vista.

If users use linux and Vista side by side, linux wins hands down even with the non techie crowd. The problem is that almost NOBODY is doing this.

Re:eh

[Corporate Troll]

A bit expensive... My Asus EEE 701 4G boots up incredibly fast. 5 seconds to the Xandros password screen.

That's cold boot because the sleep functionality sucks seriously on the EEE. ("sucks seriously" as in "sucks battery for breakfast")

Re:eh

[Anonymous Coward]

A notebook sized iPhone-like device

Thats got to be awkward to try to hold to your ear while talking.

Re:eh

[Gewalt]

My own kids' computers are cheap arse dell dimensions that were leftovers from a project many moons ago. Kids are 5 and 8. I set both machines up dual booting Ubuntu and XP. Taught the kids how to switch from one OS to the other. Both choose Ubuntu for most tasks but will use XP happily enough for that rare game some odd family member bought them that only runs on windows.
 
For the most part, I consider my kids will grow up considerably more OS agnostic than the average user, and I am hoping that will turn out to be a major advantage for them. (Oh, ya, and they also get to use my macbook pro occasionally too, but usually only when we are on the road, they like OSX the most but I'm a cheap bastard and cant afford to get them their own macbooks)

Re:eh

[I.M.O.G.]

Good point, Apple's sleep mode actually works as advertised. Bit I and most others in business aren't in the market for an Apple laptop to do real work on (not counting marketing, etc... I said "real" work).

On a windows platform, sleep and hibernation have been sketchy, mainly due to questionable drivers. Add to this the fact that even if it does come out of sleep correctly, things feel a bit sluggish still and it altogether just doesn't feel snappy.

Give me web, email, and documents in a snap, with the opportunity to also boot a full OS... And I think thats adding something valuable to a Windows OS. In business environments where its gotta be Windows for whatever reason, I like this option.

Re:eh

[Gewalt]

In only ten seconds more I can launch Parallels Desktop or VMware Fusion and have a fuly integrated Windows XP environment that runs at full speed. That's 5 seconds to launch the host and 5 seconds to unsuspend the guest. You can shave the first 5 seconds off by never shutting down the Host application.

Re:eh

[poetmatt]

You know, sleep does a number on your pc. It sounds like a nice power saving feature, but it's not "off". Fans are still on, hard drives are sometimes on (depending on configuration), and other things too. I'm sure you know this.

For non sleep, why not just use hibernate? Even linux supports that.

Re:eh

[Gewalt]

Yes, sleep fails miserably on many computers. That's why I specified "when it works as advertised" and pointed to apples store.

My MBP can sleep for over a week without running out of battery. (that's the longest I have ever been away from it)

Re:eh

[PopeRatzo]

You guys need to slow down a bit. I don't know what kind of job requires you to access your email within 5 seconds, but I get a stomach ache just thinking about it.

Seriously, nobody wants to wait two minutes or even one minute. But I have to chuckle when I think of any apple laptop user that "needs" his laptop to boot in 5 seconds. By the time he stirs his soy latte, brings out his iPhone ostentatiously, and makes sure someone's noticed the logo on the lid, that's 15 seconds right there.

Re:eh

[R3d Jack]

Have your brother run Ubuntu and run XP in a virtual machine. I do that at home with the family Mac and Napster (keeps my kid satisfied and legal).

Re:eh

[PopeRatzo]

Which OS does your Aunt Millie use when she wants to play Crysis Warhead?

Re:eh

[SkunkPussy]

do you enjoy waiting at traffic lights, waiting in queues, travelling on aeroplanes, staring at progress dialogues, etc? no?

Re:eh

[I.M.O.G.]

If your going apple, it sounds like you have the right idea to get everything you could want out of it.

Going back to what I said earlier, my point isn't that you can't do real work on an Apple so don't feel slighted - you've expressed how you it has the capabilities. I'm just saying in business theres a lot of situations where purchasing Apple hardware and paying the premium isn't an option, because Windows is the "de facto" platform and you can get a formidable business class system for $1000.

Keeping this relevant to the article at hand, this system on a chip in combination with a full windows system sounds like a win and thats really my point - if its got to be a windows platform, its great to have this option.

Re:eh

[TheRaven64]

Out of interest, have you tried using Windows on an Apple laptop? Apple does something quite neat with sleep mode, where they begin suspend-to-disk when the lid is closed but don't turn off the RAM until the battery is low, so you have suspend-to-RAM which changes to suspend-to-disk if the battery goes flat. I've never actually had my battery go flat while in sleep mode, however, so Windows' suspend-to-RAM ought to work. I believe the drivers for Apple hardware are fairly good (although I've not used them).

Re:eh

[Odiseo70]

The game console's OS ?

Re:eh

[d3ac0n]

By the time he stirs his soy latte, brings out his iPhone ostentatiously, and makes sure someone's noticed the logo on the lid, that's 15 seconds right there.

Now now, let's be nice here. While I will admit, Apple DOES have a reputation as an Elitist's machine, Apple has been making inroads into other markets for some time.

When my father quit his old job and started his own company, he asked me what laptop he should buy. I unequivocally told him to buy a Mac. He bought himself a Powerbook Pro, and hasn't looked back since. He can do everything he used to be able to do on a Windows machine, and I almost never have to hand-hold him through it. He's almost 60 years old, and he loves his Mac. he loves it so much in fact, that he bought my mom one of her own. She's got a regular powerbook, and thinks it's great!

Now I just need to get Grandpa set up on an Ubuntu box, and I shall complete the geek trifecta!

*maniacal laughter*

 

Re:eh

[Corporate Troll]

Who says I'm talking about work? At work, I boot the computer, go fetch a coffee, talk to the cute secretary and when I'm back I log in.

For me these things are issues at home: quick check for personal email before going to work. Check the train timetables for going to work, and if I'm too late anyway, I can reply to that personal email. Wife wants to go to the movies? Check the local movie theater website. It's at those moments that booting takes a long time relative to the task at hand. Now? We just have my wife PC running 24/7... Don't get me started about the electricity bill and our CO2 footprint....

Re:eh

[Atlantis-Rising]

Windows Vista also does the suspend-to-RAM that converts automatically to suspend-to-disk. It's simply called 'sleep', and it's the primary option on the shutdown menu (rather than shutdown, sleep or hibernate, which are off, suspend to ram, and suspend to disk, respectively).

Re:eh

[Gewalt]

sory for being pedantic, but I just can't help it.

PowerBooks are relics of apple's legacy hardware, with PowerPC chips in them. They never had a Powerbook Pro. It's a MacBook and MacBook Pro now, ever since the switch to intel architecture (which was when Apple became relevant again)

Re:eh

[jonnythan]

Uh, what?

I put my computer to sleep and my Kill-A-Watt says it's using about 4 watts. No fans are on. No hard drives are on. And it wakes up from this 4-watt sleep in about 4 seconds, compared to 15-20 for hibernate.

There are different sleep states. Sounds like you're only familiar with S1.

Re:eh

[not already in use]

I actually saw a guy in Starbucks time his MacBook on boot. Went something like this:

"Uno, Dos, Tres, Catorce!"

Re:eh

[not already in use]

I went through this whole process with my brother. Same reaction when I showed him Ubuntu and told him everything was free. Now, roughly a month later he had me put XP back on it. The "ooh's" and "ahh's" wear off real quick when you realize you are hamstrung by shitty 3rd party support and Linux crappy OSS alternatives to commercial software.

Re:eh

[poetmatt]

I am familiar with S3 being more common, but remmeber: there are more users on old hardware than on new hardware. Not many use S2. So what are we left with? S1.

I prefer S4 aka HIBERNATE, as I mentioned myself. How can I be only familiar with S1 if I mentioned hibernation? (facepalm). I can has critical reading?

Re:eh

[I.M.O.G.]

I haven't tried using Windows on an Apple laptop. That sleep mode feature makes a lot of good sense. I wish there was a good opportunity for me to use more Apple stuff, or reason for me to justify buying an air for personal use. I'd love to play with it, but when I already have work systems sufficient for the bit of personal stuff I do... I can't bring myself to pony up the dough. It's an impossible sell trying to justify a macbook over a thinkpad to the boss.

By the way, I enjoy reading your posts. Your name is one which I remember commonly seeing as +5 with my moderation weighting.

Re:eh

[Just Some Guy]

I assume then, that none of your family plays Windows-only games?

I bet Aunt Millie the genealogist is dying to get her hands on Warhammer Online.

Re:eh

[heffrey]

It's such a travesty that such a clearly superior product languishes so far behind an utterly useless one.

But what do you mean by these popups? Do you mean UAC? Surely Ubuntu implements elevation in much the same way as Vista? I'm sure it did last time I used it.

Re:eh

[Colonel Korn]

PC exclusive...

Re:eh

[cayenne8]

"I actually saw a guy in Starbucks time his MacBook on boot. Went something like this:

"Uno, Dos, Tres, Catorce!"

I don't get it.....1, 2, 3, 14 ??

So, you're saying people in Starbucks don't know how to count in any language?

I suppose that explains how they get away with selling coffee at those prices.....

Re:eh

[darkvizier]

Hmm... my dad set my grandpa up with Ubuntu, but I don't think he uses it much. 'Twas a bad plan to do that when grandpa doesn't have any of the family geeks living nearby... Mac might have been a better (though more expensive) option.

Re:eh

[not already in use]

Whooosh! Sorry, I thought the reference would have been a little more obvious. Bono, Vertigo, iPod ad... Google it.

Re:eh

[pandrijeczko]

Well, you did better than me in terms of seeing the Mac guy in Starbucks.

I always seem to go into those Starbucks where the token Mac user has precisely positioned himself in such a way so as to reflect the light from his lid-located silver Apple logo straight into the eyes of any customer who walks in...

Re:eh

[Tubal-Cain]

Or they could try:

A good built-in mic, if you don't care about private conversation.
OR
Bluetooth for a headset.

Re:eh

[MadMidnightBomber]

She doesn't - she prefers Manhunt 2.

Re:eh

[Anonymous Coward]

The obvious sarcasm in your post got kinda deflated by your .sig ;)

Re:eh

[Repossessed]

Nope, ugly and buggy as hell, can't even make a DHCP connection, windows does that for it

Hopefully the real thing is bertter than the beta I used.

Re:eh

[lysergic.acid]

you don't have to take it that far.

with desktop processors so powerful nowadays, most people will never make full use of the processing power on a standard desktop (unless they're running Windows Vista + an AV program + IE + a bunch of malware in the background). a decently optimized operating system should allow most users to do what they need to do (word processing, spreadsheets, web browsing, listen to music, watch videos, check e-mail, etc.) on a relatively modest system with 512 MB to 1 GB of RAM.

and i'm not just talking about netbooks or laptops. there ought to be low-power desktops that the average consumer can use for their daily computing needs without wasting any energy or CPU cycles, and still perform (for their purposes) just as well as a top of the line standard PC.

as long as you're not running bloated software that negates the huge increases in computing power over the years, there's no reason for most casual computer users to have a quad core CPU, 4 GB of RAM, and a $300 video card. sure, it may be affordable, but unless you're actually going to use that computing power for processor-intensive applications, then you'd benefit more from having a low-power PC that runs cool/quiet, and that you can leave on at all times.

of course, that means computer vendors need to stop pre-installing their systems with a bunch of bundled cruftware--no SBC-branded IE browser with 3 different custom toolbars, no Norton/Symantec Anti-Virus, and no Nero Home or other useless programs filling up the system tray. most computer users can't even tell you what half the icons in their system tray are for, much less use them on a regular basis. and with a lean install, most users could probably get by on a system only half-as powerful as the computer they have (and it'd probably still boot up faster).

Re:eh

[TJamieson]

Perhaps d3ac0n meant an iBook for dear old Grandma?

Re:eh

[HappyDrgn]

Maybe this just comes from me never having grandparents and not really understanding what senile is, but it seems if my 5 year old can use Linux, someone's grandfather should be able to as well. The key I think, as with any tech product, is not to just build it and dump it on them. Actually make it somewhat easy to use by removing most of the junk and placing some easy to read icons on the desktop to favorite applications. Then sit with them and go over each step to do something, such as opening and replying to an email. People with minimal computing experience seem to do things very mechanically, they click and icon, select a menu item, and so on. So long as they know the process to do the few things they want to do it really does not matter if they where using an old webtv (do they still exist), windows, linux or a toaster with an LCD for that matter.

Re:eh

[ceoyoyo]

Yes, I know you're just cashing in on the Apple-users-are-snobby-hippies meme, but I find the WORKING suspend on my Mac very useful. I do medical imaging research and it's very handy, when talking to someone about some technique, to be able to pop out my notebook, open the lid and have it immediately ready to pull up an MRI, graph or a figure illustrating what I'm talking about.

Re:eh

[i.of.the.storm]

I don't know why all the Mac users are so excited over working suspsend all of a sudden. I've never had problems with Windows suspend either. Usually if I'm running Windows on my laptop I just sleep it and when you open the lid again it goes straight to the login screen. Unfortunately, with Linux if I leave it alone for a while the screen goes blank and refuses to respond, but usually a ctrl-alt-backspace is enough to fix that. I haven't bothered with setting up ACPI stuff though, although I have seen guides for getting everything working on my laptop. ACPI is something that should really work out of the box, and I don't particularly care how stupid the ACPI standard is, and I suspect most users don't either. I enjoy tweaking a lot but unfortunately most of the time I end up borking something with binary blob video drivers and so I haven't tried this time.

Re:eh

[i.of.the.storm]

I don't know if Vista improved standby or what, because I've never really used it on a laptop before, but on my new laptop sleep mode works perfectly. I used to always use hibernate in XP but it seems like with 3GB of RAM hibernate takes forever. Ugh, 3GB of ram is annoying too, stupid HP for not having 64 bit windows in their retail laptops (at least when I bought mine).

Re:eh

[ceoyoyo]

I don't think it's all of a sudden. Macs have done suspend properly for the better part of a decade.

I've never had a Windows laptop that would wake up reliably enough to make suspend-to-ram an option. I hear things got better a few years ago and some of them do now.

Re:eh

[Abreu]

We old farts play Real Dungeons and Dragons. With dice! And Paper!

And we bring out the Warhammer miniatures (handpainted!) when we want some PvP

Re:eh

[Shotgun]

I AM and old fart, you insentive clod!

Now, get off my lawn!
NOT with my dice, damn you.

Re:eh

[sgbett]

I'm waiting for S3.11

Re:eh

[DaveWick79]

I have a laptop with Ubuntu and Vista on it.

My wife is as non-techie as they get. All she wants to do most of the time is check email and her friends blogs.
She chooses Vista over Ubuntu every time. She doesn't like the layout, she hates how when she's online and wants to install something she can't just click the link, she hates how certain flash applets don't work in firefox correctly so she can't use them. She doesn't care that all the software is in a list, in fact there's too much in the list and she finds it hard to find a program that will do what she wants. Again, she'd rather just click the link and have a friendly installer wizard come up.

Personally I like Ubuntu for web browsing because it boots fast and runs fast. That's about where it ends but I do have that going for me...

Re:eh

[Constantine XVI]

Elevation's slightly different in Ubuntu compared to Vista. In Vista, you get a UAC prompt (sometimes several) every time an app requests admin privileges. If the app doesn't have focus, it blinks in the taskbar until you click it, when it overtakes the screen. If you're admin, it simply asks for allow/deny, otherwise it asks for the user/pass of an admin user. In Ubuntu, it pops up a password box (even if you are an admin user) that overtakes the screen, and you have elevation until you don't do any admin tasks for 5 minutes or so.

Re:eh

[heffrey]

Sounds like Ubuntu is somewhat less secure than UAC, but for the user it's much the same. I really find it bizarre that:

1. People slate MS for having an unsecure OS where users run as root all the time (=Vista).

In my view to criticise for 1 is reasonable. But to berate MS for both 1 and 2 shows a distinct lack of appreciation of logic.

Re:eh

[heffrey]

/. ate my post!

My points are:

1. People slate MS for having an unsecure OS where users run as root all the time (<=Vista).
2. People slate MS for having a secure OS where users run with least rights all the time (>=Vista).

(something like the < being treated as an opening tag!)

Re:eh

[MeepMeep]

This might be helpful to the pop-culture challenged:

"Why in Vertigo, the lyrics go "UNO, DOS, TRES... CATORCE"? (meaning 1,2,3,14)?"
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20071204125822AAU9OFn

You can read more in the Wikipedia link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vertigo_(song)

But hey, at least you got a +5 Funny!

Re:eh

[rrohbeck]

I just had to reboot my XP laptop the other day because VPN wouldn't play any more and it took 12 minutes total. Maybe 9 minutes shutting down and 3 minutes starting up.

Hopefully they can port more and more apps to the quick-booting Linux kernel so we'd need to take the x86 out of sleep/hibernation only for Windows compatibility. A hypervisor in ROM could virtualize Windows to play nice in that environment.

Re:eh

[Hurricane78]

Do you actually shut down your computer???
How strange. It's like willfully disabling/crippling yourself.

I am 29, so don't call me old-fashioned, but I simply prefer a real computer. With a large ergonomic keyboard, a full mouse (optional), an extremely huge screen space (1920*1200 = absolute minimum), and a big tower, that I can stuff full of devices until it bursts.

Then again, unlike most people, I actually use those resources.

A portable device will not become useful to me, until I can input as fast and accurate as on a normal computer, and have just as much screen space.
Oh, and 3-5 hours of use, until I have do dock again? As I do not shut down, this will not be very useful.

P.S.: Yes, I will be one of the first to use wearable computer systems. But I still wait for hardware that does not make you look like a dork. I'm working on it... :)

Re:eh

[Samah]

In fact, screw the D&D and the dice!
Ahhh forget the whole thing.

Re:eh

[kesuki]

"The problem is that almost NOBODY is doing this."

i admit, I'm kinda lazy and i've only converted one relatives computer to linux, and i didn't bother to show them how to add software.

but ubuntu is growing in popularity, it's only a matter of time. there are people out there exposing 'the populace' to linux. although, personally i like kubuntu a lot better. mainly because the system i'm typing on now had a under supported GPU, yeah they're motherboard graphix, but it works fine for all my old games (and i have a lot of old games for windows) but i like linux for internet usage, when i'm not playing games.

speaking of games, the one person i switched to linux, likes the sudoku game that comes on linux. mark shuttleworth has a plan for linux, and i like what he's been doing so far. as long as the government doesn't mandate trusted computing, linux is looking more and more like the 'microsoft' killer.

Re:eh

[setagllib]

It's simply called 'sleep' ... rather than ... sleep

Did you mean Suspend?

Re:eh

[Atlantis-Rising]

I'm actually pretty sure both options are called 'sleep', which is weird, yes.

Re:eh

[eam]

Were your parents grown in a lab?

Re:eh

[PopeRatzo]

At work, I boot the computer, go fetch a coffee, talk to the cute secretary and when I'm back I log in.

Exactly. People who sit down at their computer and then impatiently wait while it starts up disgust me. What the hell do you think is so important on there?

Talking to the cute secretary, or just sitting quietly for the 30 or so seconds is far more likely to enrich your life.

I guess it sort of makes sense that so many computer geeks don't do well with women. Speed is just too important to them.

Re:eh

[PopeRatzo]

I just had to reboot my XP laptop the other day because VPN wouldn't play any more and it took 12 minutes total.

Time for a new laptop.

Looks like we're going back to 1981...

[Viol8]

... when IBM PCs had BASIC in ROM which you could start instantly and (in theory) do some sort of work with without booting DOS. No bad thing IMO.

For some people this may be enough

[Viol8]

A LOT of people by a PC just to access email or the web. If they can do all this with an OS that starts instantly too , why will they want Vista? Time for MS to sweat possibly?

Re:For some people this may be enough

[TheRaven64]

Have you seen the OMAP series? A 3530 would be enough for most people and the A9-based ones on the near-future roadmap are even more interesting. I'd be more than happy to give up binary compatibility for the performance per watt that they provide. Something like the OpenPandora system with HDMI out and 256MB or more of RAM would be close to my ideal portable.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[JasterBobaMereel]

I'm waiting for an owner of one of these to be shown how to boot into Vista and saying "I don't recognise this?" - after they have had it for a year ....

Re:For some people this may be enough

[dotancohen]

A LOT of people by a PC just to access email or the web. If they can do all this with an OS that starts instantly too , why will they want Vista? Time for MS to sweat possibly?

Because often 'access email' means Word and Powerpoint forwards. I lost one user from Kubuntu to XP Cracked Edition because she _needed_ to read those forwards that her friends with boring jobs send her. OOo 2.4 just did not display them reliably enough. She _notices_ that the system is slower, and she _knows_ that it probably had malware right from the install. But that doesn't bother her as much as not being able to open Powerpoint forwards properly.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[wiz_80]

Strange - my home machine runs OpenOffice instead of MS Office, and I can only remember one PPT that did not open right the first time in OOo. DOCs all come up fine, so much that when I need to do a lot of word processing I do it on the desktop with the nice keyboard and then transfer the file to the work lapdog. Never had any trouble, even with big multi-author documents with all sorts of highlighting and versioning.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[I'm not really here]

Try that with Dia/Visio. I can't reliably export as Visio from Dia - it always offsets the text horribly.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[Hal_Porter]

QCT Snapdragon is even faster than a Cortex A8 now, and probably comparable to an A9. Of course, the successor to Snapdragon will compete with A9.

http://www.insidedsp.com/Articles/tabid/64/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/238/Qualcomm-Reveals-Details-on-Scorpion-Core.aspx

Mind you, the fastest ARMs will probably always lag behind the fastest laptop x86, just because ARM tends to be used in phones where the software is smaller and faster than either Linux or Windows. The power budget and die size in an ARM is much less than an x86 too.

Basically x86 is desktop/server architecture and Arm is a phone/MID architecture. If you want performance at any price and power consumption, x86 will win.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[TheRaven64]

Thanks - I saw something a little while ago with a Snapdragon chip, but couldn't find more than a load of marketing speak about it. Looks like it could be a very interesting design. I'm looking forward to devices based on ARM MPcores hitting the market in the next few years - most uses stopped being CPU limited around the time x86 chips hit 1GHz (I still do a lot of my work on machines around that speed), and for these people portability is a lot more important than raw speed.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[pandrijeczko]

I lost one user from Kubuntu to XP Cracked Edition because she _needed_ to read those forwards that her friends with boring jobs send her.

But presumably she didn't need it enough to go buy a proper licensed copy of XP?

I don't intend bleating on about piracy and I really don't want to play the Linux zealot here, but I do wish people would compare "like for like". Far too many people seem to forget that XP and MS Office are commercial products that they *should* be paying for whereas Open Office and Linux are obtainable freely.

If it was impossible to run cracked copies of Windows, MS Office and other Windows software and everyone had to pay for proper licenses, I'm sure a lot more people would take the trouble to actually try free software, rather than staying in a comfort zone and just assuming it cannot do what they need it to.

As another poster has already said, I've never seen a PPT that I couldn't import in Open Office. Sure, I don't use all of Powerpoint's features but, in my experience, the compatibility seems quite good.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[Hal_Porter]

I think Snapdragon is interesting because it's the only example of an ARM licensee developing their own microarchitecture. Most people just take a hard macro and use that and a few tweak the layout.

It's actually good for the ARM architecture that competition is heating up like this. One of the drivers of x86 was AMD and Intel's duelin' microarchitectures. Hell, otherwise we'd all have 'upgraded' from a Netburst P4 to an Itanium and ended up losing vast amounts of performance. It's only due to competition from AMD Intel have produced the excellent and x64 compatible Core2 chips.

If QCT's gamble pays off they'll be a generation ahead of TI's tweaked A8. I hope it triggers an ARMs race with TI and the like puring cash into custom ARM microarchitectures. Maybe Intel will do one too. I'm skeptical though, Atom has quite a bit more performance than even a Snapdragon. I think they'll keep shrinking x86 rather than growing ARM.

Re:For some people this may be enough

[wiz_80]

Oh yeah, Visio is the one MS program that I haven't found a reasonable substitute for. I was only talking about the sort of "funny" attachments users want from their personal e-mail.

I don't think it's the Linux

[Sockatume]

Going out on a limb here, but I suspect the use of a mobile phone processor contributed a teeny bit more to the improved battery life than the Linux. (FWIW, I don't see any statistically significant battery life difference between Xubuntu and Vista Business on my own machine, but that's another story.)

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[Gewalt]

You ever try to get windows vista running on a AMD Geode LX800? You are correct in saying that its the processor saving the power, not the OS, but without the OS, the processor wouldn't be an option.

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[Gollum]

And which version of Windows would you run on that processor, then? Oh, right!

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[Sockatume]

There are plenty of other OSes than Linux which they could've run off that CPU. Linux is arguably the best option these days, but it's an OS choice driven by the hardware, rather than the other way around.

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[Sockatume]

I'd probably opt for something else entirely. You hardly need a general-purpose OS for the functions they suggest, although that would stifle your ability to update the applications.

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[akozakie]

Not only that. Having a general purpose operating system gives you a choice you wouldn't otherwise have - using applications that the designers didn't consider. I know I'd like a laptop with 20+ hours on a normal battery, but it would have to have at least ssh (works on my phone, so obviously not a problem), and something to edit text (LaTeX, docs, sometimes simple programs - vi or something else that doesn't need much processor power). I could do 80% of my everyday work with this. And if after a few hours of work I could boot to full power to e.g. compile the text - even better. Now, what are the chances that these applications would be installed in an "email/web" mode? With Linux I can just install what I need and - as long as it doesn't need much to run - it'll work just fine.

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[Sockatume]

True, it would shove the setup way too far into the "pocket organiser" corner of the functionality-battery life continuum.

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[Constantine XVI]

8/10, this mode will be hackable. And since every program you mentioned is OSS, re-compiling for ARM shouldn't be that difficult (and someone's bound to throw together a distro for it at some point)

Re:I don't think it's the Linux

[access.name]

Linux has really bad power management compared to XP. Is a common fact that Ubuntu gets nearly Half the battery life on all Lenovo notebooks compared to XP. Just search the lenovo forums. Example numbers: Lenovo X60 (Core L2500) Ubuntu: ~14 watts XP: ~8 watts I'm not being a troll, I use exclusively linux, but the power managament pisses me a lot. I would like that this message reaches the kernel developers, so they do something about this.

10 to 20 hours is easy...

[squoozer]

... you just need a very very big battery. Rather than quoting run time on battery we should probably start reporting the average power draw of the system idle and under full load.

Re:10 to 20 hours is easy...

[ozbird]

Rather than quoting run time on battery we should probably start reporting the average power draw of the system idle and under full load.

Why? Apart from electrical engineers, users don't care what the power draw is - they do care about actual run time.
If you want to put that value into context, factor in the other variables that matter to users e.g. run time per kg, run time per cm^3, run time per $.

Re:10 to 20 hours is easy...

[cnettel]

Power draw will affect heat output. Of course, we can have a good design radiating heat out in a way that is no inconvenience to the user, but most systems will turn up their fans or get hot to the touch in inconvenient places.

Re:10 to 20 hours is easy...

[squoozer]

I hear what you are saying but comparisons across different laptops are hard without knowing the size of the battery. The laptop I'm currently on runs about 2.5 hours on battery with the larger battery option it gets about 3.5 hours. What that doesn't say though is it takes a laptop that already nearly pulls your arm off when carrying it to something that virtually needs a trolley to move around.

Re:I want one...

[hey!]

Well, pop the case open, remove the x86 CPU from the socket and sell it on ebay. Voila! No legacy.

Flamebait headline

[abigsmurf]

They're talking about using a system on a chip solution that is designed to draw about 2W compared to the 20W or so the laptop usually draws. Of course it's going to last longer.

Given the Geode is x86, this could quite easily run XP and would likely achieve a similar battery life. It just wouldn't be instant on.

It's also an incredibly expensive solution that'll add weight and bulk to the laptop. If this kind of thing is important to you, get a PDA or smartphone.

Re:Flamebait headline

[Sockatume]

It sounds like it gives you access to your machine's own files, though. I suppose a more elegant alternative would be to design a CPU package with an ultra-low-voltage, ultra-low-performance mode and some sort of teeny onboard memory, rather than a whole other CPU for the stripped-back OS.

Re:Flamebait headline

[Sockatume]

This implimentation is supposed to let you access your "calendar" and "contacts", so without them qualifying it with mentions of web apps, I'm assuming local access.

Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[JoSch1337]

Does the OMAP3 just share the hardware like battery, display, keyboard, usb, wifi, harddrive with the rest? Will it have access to everything?
If yes, then it would be possible to only use the OMAP and not those powersucking intel chipset and processor anymore. This would be awesum as this would be the perfect combination of powersaving processor (the intel atom chipset draws way to much power) and big keyboard/display/battery!

Oh and why did't netbook manufactures use OMAP3 yet? The power is okay for email+browsing, it's cheaper and battery life is better compared to the intel atom+chipset. Only because it's not x86 and windows will not run on it???

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[AvitarX]

Will it run flash?

I am not a huge fan, but a lot of great sites require flash for use.

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[TheRaven64]

Oh and why did't netbook manufactures use OMAP3 yet?

No idea, but OpenPandora made a handheld with one. It was released on Tuesday, with an initial run of 3,000 units. They sold 2,000 of these in the first six hours. One of these with a bit more RAM and HDMI output would be my ideal portable. The next generation OMAPs are based on the ARM Cortex A9, which supports up to 4 cores on a single die, which makes them even more interesting - especially if you can shut all except one down when you're on battery.

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[FourthAge]

Oh and why did't netbook manufactures use OMAP3 yet? ... Only because it's not x86 and windows will not run on it???

Yes.

There's no reason why Intel can't (eventually) make a low power x86 CPU that competes seriously with these ARM CPUs... Atom might not be it, but the next generation probably will be. And then, these Intel CPUs will have a major advantage over other CPUs for mobile devices. Their ability to run almost any program is what people actually want. x86 has won time and again, not because it is better than its competitors, but because it is so widely used, and compatibility is what counts.

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[rbanffy]

"Only because it's not x86 and windows will not run on it???"

That's usually a big problem. You would design a complete platform that could not be sold for the typical PC user. While a great many PC users use their computers for little more than checking e-mail and web browsing, a good many of them need a specific Windows program for something that has no free equivalent (or none they know of).

I think a small scale manufacturer could grow thin-clients into desktop workstations in an additional product line rather easily.

Again, I would love to see comp-sci students with non-x86, interesting, odd architectures to play with. Multi-core and transactional memory are going to be big soon and we need them to get familiar with this stuff.

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[rwiggers]

Have you ever built a system with a non-x86 processor?
Many applications you use in the PC are built in a not portable way, and they are really hard to cross-compile. Many won't compile at all. Of course, not to mention the proprietary softwares that only deliver a x86 binary blob.
Ah, before you ask, yes, I work with linux on ARM machines. They are wonderful for a controlled environment, but would be a nightmare in an open environment where the user could install just about anything.

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[TheRaven64]

I run OpenBSD on a PowerPC Mac Mini, and have had no problems with software that I want to use not being supported. The only exception is Valgrind, but that doesn't run on OpenBSD on x86 yet either.

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[Jorophose]

Well, RAM is a TI issue, and as for HDMI the BeagleBoard has one (and it's the native video output) so I don't know why the Pandora doesn't have it.

(oh, and isn't the BB cortex a9? what the heck is up with all the ARMs?)

Re:Will it be possible to only use OMAP3 for work?

[TheRaven64]

Well, RAM is a TI issue

Kind of. There are two ways of connecting RAM to an OMAP. One is on a chip that clips on top - currently these only go up to 128MB. The other way is to run traces from the CPU elsewhere on the motherboard and put RAM chips there. The OMAP chips support more RAM this way, but it drives up size and moterboard complexity / cost.

as for HDMI the BeagleBoard has one

Yup, but it doesn't have a separate LCD driver. Not sure if this is related.

isn't the BB cortex a9?

Nope, it's an OMAP3 series, which is a Cortex A8 with a load of extra stuff on die.

umm

[RMH101]

...you are aware that a good proportion of Windows Mobile devices run on OMAP processors, right? Like the venerable HTC Wizard etc?

Re:umm

[Corporate Troll]

I'm sure he's aware of that, but Windows Mobile isn't the Windows as we know and love/hate. He says that "Windows Vista" isn't going to run well on a Geode (if it runs at all, I think it's Pentium I compatible which might be not suppored by Vista anymore).

Re:umm

[RMH101]

No, it's a *different* Windows we know and hate!

I get this, I'm just pointing out that "Linux FTW!" doesn't really cut it here. It's "energy-efficient processors and lightweight OS FTW!" instead.

FWIW, I thought this whole thing was what MS Sideshow was meant to be...

Re:umm

[Corporate Troll]

Yes, it's a different Windows and it isn't even remotely as powerful as the fullblown Windows or as a well balanced GNU/Linux system.

But, you're right about two things: the reason is the chip not the OS, and it's exactly what MS Sideshow was supposed to be.

Re:umm

[SQLGuru]

While not what MS intended, I don't see why someone doesn't do something with Windows PE ( Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Windows_Preinstallation_Environment ). It'll pretty much run anything XP will, has full networking support, etc. All without the normal Windows bloat.

I first learned about it when I bought a copy of Active@Boot Disk ( http://www.ntfs.com/boot-disk.htm ) to recover data from a corrupted / failed hard-drive. [Works great, BTW.]

Layne

Re:umm

[Constantine XVI]

In this case, the problem is that WinPE still is x86 only, and x86 still has a major disadvantage in power draw compared to ARM-based chips like the OMAP.

How about a solar cell notebook case?

[digitaldc]

How about putting a solar array on a notebook case/cover that could power your laptop and any other items such as cell phones and music players?

Seeing that batteries are a very limited resource, how about having the option to use the unlimited power of the sun?

It also has a dual benefit of forcing you to get out of your parent's basement every so often.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[ErroneousBee]

Because then you have to leave these things out in the sun, where they will get stolen, or suffer from heat stress issues, warping of plastics, water damage, etc.

Its also hard to charge an 18V battery from the 5V typical that you get from a laptop sized solar panel.

Power monkeys and similar are the way to go, especially if capacitor based batteries come around, then you can charge devices from the powermonkey in minutes.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[Timothy Brownawell]

Seeing that batteries are a very limited resource, how about having the option to use the unlimited power of the sun?

• It's been raining for 3 days, now what do yo do?
• You live above the Arctic Circle, and it's winter. Now what do you do?
• Your laptop uses more than the 20 watts or so that such a small solar array would produce (on a good day). Now what do you do?

Solar power isn't really that unlimited, especially if you have to be mobile.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[malkavian]

Actually, it's a great idea.
You mentioned lots of boundary conditions and "What if" on the negative side. Look at the wins:

What if you manage to complete some work you otherwise wouldn't have been able to by using the last of the battery that was charged by solar.
What about the energy you'll save (across the whole user base of the machines). That's significant!
What if you're a casual user of the laptop (like my father; he brings it out now and then, and the battery has frequently lost charge from sitting around so long!). It could mean you have a full battery rather than an almost empty one.

Maybe not something to slap into full production from the word go, but certainly worth examining with a pilot project, and maybe a small line release.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[Timothy Brownawell]

...what if it's cheaper, more convenient, and more effective to just upgrade your battery to the next size up? Solar probably only makes sense if you'll be mobile (so no car batteries) and far away from mains power (so you can't just plug in at night) for an extended length of time.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[MMC Monster]

Okay. How about using a liquid fuel source like lighter fluid?

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[maxume]

This is pure speculation, but I would think that the market for such a wizmo is small enough that an integrated solution would never break even. Selling a separate panel that was compatible with a line of laptops would probably be a better way to test the waters.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[markov_chain]

• It's been raining for 3 days, now what do yo do?
• You live above the Arctic Circle, and it's winter. Now what do you do?
• Your laptop uses more than the 20 watts or so that such a small solar array would produce (on a good day). Now what do you do?

I'm sure that vendors are dying to satisfy the weird needs of those 20 people. :D

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[ja]

How about instead putting a second battery in its own case with solar power. That way you can leave the charger out in the sun, while you yourself stay cool - poolside with a pina collada? - in the shade ...

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[ErroneousBee]

On a plane?

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[Agripa]

Even if the solar panel voltage depended on the surface area instead of the series and parallel topology, the necessary charge controller could easily handle any required voltage step up which is arguably the best configuration anyway.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[ja]

You won't need anywhere near 10W for a Pandora/Beagleboard nettop. Something like this will do:

http://www.world-shop1.com/solar-chargers/

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[anubis7733]

maybe because a solar cell is way more expensive than a battery and would probably need to be about twice the size of your laptop to keep it powered.

Re:How about a solar cell notebook case?

[kesuki]

you do realize, that 18v battery is a series of 3 volt batteries right?

lithium ion batteries don't come above 3.2 volts. they simply can't get them past that voltage, so 4-cell li-ion batteries can go to 12 volts, and a 6 cell battery gives you 18 volts.

in theory a smart battery controller can charge one cell at a time from a trickle solar charger. it just depends, does the battery controller have the logic to trickle charge or not.

silly...

[Timothy Brownawell]

I wonder if someday we'll just be able to plug our phones into our laptops, switching to the phone's processor when we need to save battery life?

That would be silly. Why not plug your foldable self-powered screen/keyboard thing into your "phone" when you need more pixels or want to type something long?

Re:silly...

[argent]

Why not plug your foldable self-powered screen/keyboard thing into your "phone" when you need more pixels or want to type something long?

I'd rather plug my phone module into my PDA when I want a smart phone, or leave it in the dumb phone jacket to save power the rest of the time.

The phone module for the Visor was going to be a step in that direction, but Handspring had corporate ADD.

Re:silly...

[soupforare]

I really wish IBM's metapad got out of the prototype stage.

Re:silly...

[TheRaven64]

I use a combination similar to this. A Nokia 770, an old, cheap 3G phone, and a bluetooth keyboard. When I want to type, I can connect the keyboard to the 770, and it runs vim nicely (great for getting an article finished while waiting for people to arrive at the pub). When I want to access the Internet, and there's no hostspot, I can use the phone in the dial-up profile. When I want to make calls, the phone is a phone. Add a bit more RAM, a faster CPU (OMAP 3530 or similar) and HDMI out, and I probably wouldn't need a laptop.

Re:silly...

[akozakie]

Good solution, just throw in an external laptop-sized battery, giving the phone/keyboard/screen combo uptime measured in weeks. I'd buy it - light, functional, charge when you remember... perfect for most tasks.

Re:silly...

[psydeshow]

I really wish IBM's metapad got out of the prototype stage.

That's what I always expected the iPod to turn into: a portable device that you could plug into a workstation or laptop to perform more complex tasks.

Perhaps when the iPhone graduates from RISC to x86 we can get mobile/desktop convergence like this, with processes migrating from one cpu to another as necessary.

Re:silly...

[sootman]

Nice. I dreamt of something similar when I realized that my 624 MHz, 96 MB RAM, 2 GB storage (via CF/SD cards) 640x480 Dell Axim X50v PDA was overall quite a bit more powerful than my first real computer--a 75 MHz, 24 MB RAM, 850 MB Dell OptiPlex, which was perfectly suitable for Web and Photoshop work under Win95 back in its day.

Re:silly...

[soupforare]

I've got the cheaper non-vga axim and if they released something with similar specs in a clamshell+VGA (think HPLX), it'd be most of the way there for me. I suppose the pandora is going to be the closest I get for a while, but it's not something I'd be picking up on the first production run. (Assuming it's not the only~)

Re:I want one...

[RiotingPacifist]

I still dont get why an OEM hasnt just gone out an a limb and released a laptop without x86 support. oh noes no flash games...
Unless your tied to windows i just don't see why they cant release a 'workbook' which can run openoffice,firefox,evolution on some other architecture.

Re:Useless for Linux itself...

[RiotingPacifist]

Being more familiar with the operating system doesn't count for anything if theres no tux logo?

Freedom from x86

[rbanffy]

The interesting part, from my point of view, is that a free OS like Linux may foster the development of non-x86 binary architectures with different strengths.

I said this before: I would love to see a notebook chip with multiple ARM (or OMAP, or MIPS or whatever) cores that could be powered up and down depending on demand and desired power consumption.

The fact such machine would be completely Windows-proof would be a nice plus.

Re:Freedom from x86

[domatic]

I very much like the idea but the FOSS community and/or corporates interested in pushing such a thing needs to get cracking on a GOOD non-Adobe version of Flash and (crap!) a GOOD non-MS Silverlight.

Re:Freedom from x86

[TheRaven64]

ARM (or OMAP

OMAP is an implementation of ARM. The current generation is based on the Cortex A8 series, and comes with a nice DSP core as well (some also come with an OpenGL ES 2.0-capable PowerVR GPU) in a package that can have a 128MB RAM chip clipped on top, so you don't need any motherboard traces for RAM unless you want more than 64MB. If you want one to play with, there's quite a cheap development board.

The next generation is to be based on the Cortex A9 MPcore architecture, which supports 1-4 cores on the same die, and they are rumoured to have 256MB RAM chips ready soon.

Re:Freedom from x86

[rbanffy]

OMAP seemed to be like "ARM+" with lots of stuff that is not present in other ARM implementations, but OK. Let's say OMAP is ARM9+.

In any case, what's needed to get this started is a cheap ATX board (or mini-ITX, or whathever small) that can use regular memories and ATA/SATA disks. What's needed is a _fun_ platform.

Re:Freedom from x86

[rbanffy]

We don't have a million dedicated hobbyists. We need something that is a drop-in replacement for a PC motherboard, something that could be used everywhere to power decent cheap, power-efficient and, hopefully, solid performance workstations.

There are zillions of company drones that spend all day between SAP, e-mail and spreadsheets. As soon they get an easy to deploy and manage non-Windows solution, they will be migrated. If the hardware is Windows-proof, better, as they won't be able to turn back.

Re:creators releasing rescue kode as needed

[CubicleView]

Mod Parent +1 batshit crazy

why not use sideshow?

[Deathlizard]

If Dell wanted to save battery life on their Vista notebooks, why didn't they just integrate sideshow in their laptops? It comes with the OS and has a lot of plugins to choose from.

I know it's not a full blown OS, but outside of web surfing it does most of the functions of this system with even less power usage because of it's smaller screen.

Re:why not use sideshow?

[argent]

Wait, you think they should add a second screen for this? Did I understand you correctly?

Re:I want one...

[Ant P.]

The Pandora can run all of those just fine on Ubuntu.

The only problem is they completely sold out in hours, and won't have enough to meet demand until at least next year.

Re:I want one...

[Nursie]

There was one reviewed on the register a little while ago. Was a really cheap netbook with a decent battery life but "Oh Noes!" it ran linux on MIPS.

I'd be tempted. Debian would run fine on there.

Same processor in the pandora

[ZERO1ZERO]

This TI processor is the same one used in the pandora box that was on slashdot the other day.

I'd like one

[speedtux]

I'd like one without the x86 and without Vista, please.

Pandoras Box ... Supersized?

[ja]

This appears to be exactly the same concept as that BeautyBox from yesterday - with a gamepad molded into it - called Pandora, only much, much more expensive.

According to the TI manual, it will do 40bit fixpoint mul as well, apparently for the sole reason that this is what is needed for implementing a quality vocoder? .. Hey, that is what I would like to call /sound/ engineering! :-D

"Sleep" versus "PowerOff / Hibernate / etc."

[DrYak]

But seriously, when sleep actually works as advertised..... Why the fuck would you ever want to shut down?

Hum... increased battery life ?

Also while hibernating & powering off between usages spares more battery than maintaining the system on sleep, it doesn't solve the problem of battery usage *while* the system is up.

Whereas the Linux solution, besides being cool because it's Linux, is also really interesting because it runs on a separate low power TI OMAP hardware platform (like the recently featured Pandora gaming console, like the Beagle Board, or more mundane like the iPhone).
and *that* is something that is much less likely to drain your batteries than a full x86 platform running a full vista in all it's glory.

It brings a whole new level to dual boot : not only you switch OS and environment but even the CPU & GPU on which the OS is running.

Re:"Sleep" versus "PowerOff / Hibernate / etc."

[i.of.the.storm]

Yeah, I have to agree that this is really cool and innovative from all accounts. Kind of like that one HTC giant brick of a PDA that also ran Windows Vista, but actually practical. I would love to be able to plug something like this into an expresscard slot or something, although I doubt it's possible. And I am again reminded of why I hate laptops overall, upgradability is crap.

Re:I want one...

[Lincolnshire Poacher]

> There was one reviewed on the register a little while ago.

Maplin currently sell a MIPS netbook running Linux for 170UKP:

http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=225532&TabID=1&source=3&C=RSS

But the battery life is only 3 hours and it runs some form of ``locked-down'' OS; not entirely sure what that means:

http://labs.pcw.co.uk/2008/09/maplin-replies.html

Specs here:

http://194.150.201.35/cnmlifestyle/specification.htm

Let's the options

[DrYak]

I'd probably opt for something else entirely.

Which operating system can run a complete desktop solution with web, mail, chat, word-processing and a few other task ? with support for complete support for LAN, Wifi, tons of USB pluggable peripherals and full screen with windowing ? On a low power *NON*-x86 chip ?
And is already used and deployed as such and will require minimal tuning (some branding at most ?)

Ok let's build a list :

1. Linux (tons of OMAP support to pick from already)
2. *BSD (you can basically copy-paste comment about linux)
3. Symbian (has been used in netbooks including from Psion. But doesn't have such a large hardware support)

and, huh... that's it.

Mac OS X ? Sorry when they ported it to the iPhone they stipped aways huge portions of the user interface. And without it UI, OS/X is just a boring BSD. Beside, Apple will never allow anyone running OS X on anything but Mac sanctionned hardware (on the other hand, now that the OMAP/x86 hybrid have appear on PC, you can bet that Apple will be quick to improve their ARM verions of OSX for similar and much better integrated hybrids)

Windows CE ? Supports OMAP and some of the basic tasks. But lacks support for tons of USB and other hardware for which drivers will have to be written. In short you *could* use it for the Web/Mail tasks, but nothing else, unless you throw several programmers at the task of writing all the missing apps & drivers.

PalmOS ? Well.... Seriously there have been some not widely known netbook in the past, and there was the cancelled Voleo ultra light laptop. But that's it.

Windows XP/Vista ? Hahahaha.... what a joke ! Have you ever seen it able to run on the required CPU ? Sorry these are x86 only (with the exception of some Itanium support).

Vendor opted to Linux because it's already mature and proven for this kind of usage, with drivers and applications already ready for the task.
The only thing left to do are branding and tuning (making a monolithic kernel for better boot time).

Anything else would have required much more development.

Re:Let's the options

[Sockatume]

"In short you *could* use it for the Web/Mail tasks, but nothing else, unless you throw several programmers at the task of writing all the missing apps & drivers."

Well, that's pretty much all they're offering as it is. You could practically do it all as embedded software (which is what I was getting at with "something else entirely"), although as the reply above you suggests, that would cut you off from installing your own apps.

Re:Let's the options

[TJamieson]

(on the other hand, now that the OMAP/x86 hybrid have appear on PC, you can bet that Apple will be quick to improve their ARM verions of OSX for similar and much better integrated hybrids)

Perhaps this will occur due to Apple's purchase of PA Semi a few months back...
Next MacBook with 'Instant-On' powered by an Apple ARM11 core?

Re:Linux is not an operating system

[MightyYar]

It is worth bearing in mind that Linux is not an operating system.

Context, my friend.

When I say, "bear with me a moment", do you run off because you think that a bear is following me?

Been doing that.

[DrYak]

I'd rather plug my phone module into my PDA when I want a smart phone, or leave it in the dumb phone jacket to save power the rest of the time.

Been doing that for year between my PalmOS PDA and an antique GPRS phone.
Except they don't plug physically into each other but use bluetooth instead.

Why not plug your foldable self-powered {...}keyboard thing into your "phone"

Keybaords made by Stowaway/iGo/ThinkOutside. Except for the screen part, it's exactly has you suggest.

The phone module for the Visor was going to be a step in that direction, but Handspring had corporate ADD.

The saddest thing is that currently in most smart phones, the Phone portion is handled by a separate chip with its own RISC processor - a magic box which takes care of everything and speaks with "ATxx" style commands to the rest.

So technically ALL current smartphones are PDA + separate phone. You just can't physically separate them.

Re:Been doing that.

[argent]

The original stowaway keyboard was decent, good feel, almost enough keys. The current one is nasty.

Re:creators releasing rescue kode as needed

[MightyYar]

Given the high correlation between crackpot posts and spelling errors, we could probably devise an automatic "batshit crazy" category.

Why is it that nut cases can't spell? Or is it that they think the spell checker is the work of the government and turning it on allows them to spy?

x86 power efficiency

[tjrw]

"Or, maybe x86 will just get a lot more power-efficient."

Umm, have you heard of the Intel Atom? The biggest mill wheel around the neck of that processor is that there is no power-efficient chipset for the laptop/desktop-class processors (the 945 chipset is an absolute dog in terms of power consumption). The processors targetted at the netbook/mobile market have a very good support chipset by contrast.

For reference, the N270 has a TDP of 2W which is pretty power-efficient in my book :-)

Re:x86 power efficiency

[Jorophose]

No, it's a TDP of 4W. (unless you meant the "mobile atom"?)

The Atom does nothing new. It's a 45nm version of the VIA C7, with HyperThreading and now dual-core with the 330.

ARM on the other hand can be powered over USB.

Yeah. That's low power.

Re:I want one...

[Nursie]

Yeah, a quick google around revealed a few things, some on chips I couldn't find info for. There's also the Elonex One which is damn cheap.

When I said I'd be tempted I meant if I hadn't just bought an Eee 901 :)

Bono can't count

[PRMan]

I take it you're not a U2 fan, are you?

Re:Bono can't count

[cayenne8]

"I take it you're not a U2 fan, are you?"

Not really....to me they pretty much peaked at Live Aid...

Re:eh... I can just see the commercials now:

[davidsyes]

"You know, sleep does a number on your pc. So, what's YOUR PC's sleep number?" (not brought to you by SleepTrain)

http://www.sleeptrain.com/page.aspx?nid=91

Easy thing to do for Software Freedom

[dmarti]

I agree. The easiest thing you can do for Software Freedom is to refuse to make or support infringing copies of proprietary software.

Let me get this straight...

[turgid]

Dell is saying that Vista is all but unusable on laptops. Most straight-laced normal business type people are allergic to computers that aren't "Microsoft" so they build two laptops in one. One is useless and runs Vista (runs hot, drains the batteries quickly, is slow etc.) and the other is a very small and efficient one that runs a proper OS.

It's like sewing a cute little kitten onto the side of a fat, asthmatic, lethargic old dog on it's last legs.

No one ever went broke by underestimating the intelligence of the PHB or marketing consultant.

I wish I'd thought of it.

On the surface, this is cool. But...

[photomonkey]

On the surface, this is a really good idea.

But from a practical standpoint, I don't see any real benefit. Likely, anyone that needs instant and practically always-on email/Web access would have a smartphone; thereby reducing their need for the laptop to act as a smartphone.

But then, maybe this will help folks realize how much bloat and crap there is in operating systems, and how precious little is really needed to access Internet services.

Re:eh ... Then, maybe it's time for OSS Tap-In?

[davidsyes]

If newbies and windows-worn-out users can be shown enough of Linux to go "ooh"/"ahh", then it's time for the various Linux/Open Source Software hosting sites to embed feedback and usage links or make it more open if such links exist. Then, when users USE the apps, then should be asked to give feedback not to the original developer alone, but to an IBM/HP/Sun-sponsored entity that takes the most well-thought out/well-regarded apps and sponsor the developer/s of the apps to either afford to work more on them, or to bring in additional help to help enhance the app, but ensure helping it keep the shine and allure it started out with. Not the shine and allure seen by GEEKS, but by less gifted, daily users. GUI/UI quirks, limited functionality, strange behaviors, and so on could be dealt with faster.

The Linux distros have many of these feedback channels, but i can't help but wonder about the limited resources and lack of time possessed by the many well-meaning people who give us useful apps. But, the professionally-polished apps cost more money, have many restrictions, and the closed-source apps can often be so controlled by the owners that it could be one or 2 subsequent years before users get the stability or features they seek.

But, honestly, too, we collectively need to stop parroting that "Linux has more and freer and stabler and more functional apps than windows users could ever hope for".... That's true for SOME apps. Open Office, Celestia, Filelight, Guarddog, Firestarter, to name a few. But many still look like they are from the 70's or 80's, have constrictive interfaces, weird file exploration methods, and marginal usefulness. App comparisons need to be permanently linked online so that users who shouldn't be disappointed can have better, more realistic expectations. Otherwise, people will lose that ooh and all feel.

As for me, I'm using on my Gateway P-6301 laptop with 128 MB of video RAM, with 2 GB system RAM with 2 hard disks and 17" display (weight in at around 8.6 lbs), Mandriva PowerPack 2008.0, VirtualBox, and vista. I'm ONLY using vista because I cannot yet get used to CAD Schroer (though it's nice they made a Linux version), can't get Punch! ViaCAD in Linux, and have a number of other windows-based apps that have no Linux VERSION. I like that Celtx and StoryLines have Linux versions. I don't say "counterpart", as I don't want' a crippled/semi-functional knock-off. When i find a windows-based app i like, then I want ALL that functionality.

So, maybe we can try to cajole IBM to starting a merit pool for CAD and gamer companies to make a case for or tell that they've been "tapped" with a prize/award of $xxx,xxx.00 to in under 6 months bring to Open Source a product several users claim will be a HIT in Linux. Charge for support, but don't intentionally mire the app for income-generation purposes. It wouldn't be different than or any lower than what msoft goes to to keep developers hooked on mscode.

My suggestions:

Lotus SmartSuite
Punch! ViaCAD
Delftship ....

Re:Linux is not an operating system

[gparent]

It is worth bearing in mind that Linux is not an operating system.

Context, my friend.

When I say, "bear with me a moment",

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! *Runs off*

Re:silly... but already exists?

[fygment]

Celio Redfly