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Landing IT Work Overseas
snydeq writes "US IT workers could find considerable payoff and invaluable experience by taking their IT skills overseas, InfoWorld reports, as foreign, US, and global firms have increased the demand for a wide range of tech talent across the globe, offering positions that clearly move beyond the scut work of heads-down programming. Business fluency, industry-specific skills, and knowledge of American markets is fast becoming an invaluable asset foreign firms will pay a premium for, according to the report, which offers insights into finding IT work in a range of cities and regions abroad."
If I wanted to be in a third world economy, shouldn't I stay at home??
Take the cheese to sickbay, the doctor should see it as soon as possible - B'Elanna Torres, "Learning Curve"
Speaking as a resident of Slashdot, if you are coming here to post anonymously about your experience in an unnamed country, and expect to make a point of suggesting Americans are all xenophobic, we don't want you. Far too many Anonymous Cowards come to Slashdot to take advantage of the fact that it's popular to criticize the guys on top (Americans.) That's not how you contribute to a forum, regardless of how smug and self-assured you are.
The best part about overseas work is the ass. Girls don't wax/shave/trim, so it's like richard stallman in her pants. If that doesn't turn you on, I don't know what will!
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
Right now, I'd love to start looking at working for a company in Europe, but I'm really not looking to move out of the U.S. I'm young, and single, and the idea of traveling frequently definitely appeals to me, but I really do love living in the U.S. And getting paid in UK Pounds or Euros wouldn't hurt too much. :)
Any tips for how to nail a telecommuting job overseas?
I think that moving outside one's native culture/setting is a good idea for anyone. It really helps to gain a wider perspective of the world.
All the travel I've done to this point in my life has been primarily in Asia and I enjoyed it quite a bit. I tried to get a tech job in Korea a number of years back, just after I'd gotten into the industry, but it didn't work out.
This year I had the chance to spend a couple weeks in Hungary. That was my first visit to Europe but I thought it was a great place and would be happy to live there. I kind of expected that though.
Latin America would be interesting, though I'd think that unless one is in a major metropolis that they had best be prepared for a difference in standard of living and available services. I see Costa Rica mentioned a lot - and I think an advantage there would also be that there are many people who are very fluent in English. A lot of Americans I know that want to learn Spanish quickly go there to do so.
I've been thinking a lot about spending a couple years or so in El Salvador. But I know of an opening there that I'd have a high chance of filling.
Developing countries offer a lot of neat opportunities. I think that if one goes into it with a good idea of the situation and proper preparation that it can be life changing for the better. I certainly don't think that globalization is slowing down. And for anyone planning to return to the U.S. eventually, I think learning Spanish would be wise.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
A few years ago Bob Cringely wondered the same thing, but found India won't take you.
"So I went on the web to see how easy it would be to emigrate to India. I found NOTHING. I called the Indian Embassy in Washington, DC and asked how I could emigrate to India. They didn't know what I was talking about... The idea that I'd just arrive at the Mumbai equivalent of Ellis Island looking for a job, well they found that rather amusing." http://www.pbs.org/cringely/pulpit/2004/pulpit_20040226_000453.html
Rest of the developed world is in an IT slump. Time for that Career B-Plan?
Well, that 'on top' would be open to discussion these days.
Anyway I've worked in a few countries (Israel, Thailand, the US, Spain) and almost everywhere any idiot not willing at least to pretend to have an interest in their language is not going to be very appreciated.
Or to be exact, any idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Anyway... I'm sure skilled American IT workers are valued everywhere, but if they happen to speak a second language (or are willing to learn one) they are going to be valued not only by the companies but by their future peers.
I think it is purely a numbers game. I live in a part of the US (Florida) where speaking Spanish is becoming essential. Not using it gets me dirty looks and sub-par service in a number of places I go.
The only thing that bothers me is that sometimes where I live if English speaking Americans get vocal about wanting others to speak English they get pilloried. Yet this outlook, wanting visitors or immigrants to assimilate in language is much more widespread. And in some places the steps taken to enforce the local language are so strong as to be codified into law. Maybe I'm just more sensitive to it because I live here, but I am unaware of people who say push for Dutch in parts of Belgium, or those who enforce the use of French in parts of Canada, being vilified like the people who push hard for English in America.
Me - I figure that stuff is fluid and fighting it is foolish.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
I'm a .NET / MSSQL guy (yeah, I know, I know)
anyways, family situations have caused me to move around a lot in the last few months.
When I was in Portland OR, I landed a 6 figure job in 3 weeks. I declined it and instead moved to Manhattan and got a job in 2 weeks, also 6 figures. Contract to hire, and they said they'd hire me permanently, but now due to a death in the family I have to go to Minneapolis MN. I put my resume on Dice sunday night and have 2 promising leads for jobs in the twin cities, also at a comparable rate.
Don't know what IT slump you're talking about.
"scut work of heads-down programming"
Uhhh wot? What does the above quote mean?
Yeah, because overseas we're not scared of a woman who looks like a real woman
Only you guys need your females to look like an 8 year old girl...
Other things we prefer are flesh to silicone. Seems the only real tits left in the US are running the country...
And we're also quite attached to our foreskins as a natural part of our body rather than finding the need to slice them off and turn them into a small novelty bag for holding loose change ;-)
You don't know of places that enforce the use of French in Canada? Is that a joke, or do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
I have to say that it irritates me that people are unwilling to learn a new language, but it irritates me in both directions. I speak several languages, with varying degrees of skill, and I don't mind helping out someone who doesn't speak english.
If, however, I go to a country where I don't speak the language, I don't get offended that they expect me to make the effort to learn their language...It's a far far greater hassle for their whole country to pick up my language, than it is for me to pick up enough to get around.
So, while the, "Speak American" rednecks annoy the crap out of me, the idea that the vast english-speaking majority should have to learn a new language for the benefit of the minority is equally annoying.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
So when are the Spanish-speaking immigrants supposed to learn English, seeing some are working 18 hours a day in jobs locals don't want? If you wanted Spanish speakers to assimilate linguistically, you should have instituted a higher minimum wage and a shorter working week, and given them access to free courses everywhere (even if it's just television broadcasts). I'm living in Finland now, where most immigrants actually do a decent job (not perfect, sure, but workable) of learning the language within a few years. But here people are actually given some leisure time alongside their decent salaries.
Or to be exact, any idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Ooops! Bad example. The Dutch love you speaking English to them as they like to show how well they speak it in return. In fact, if you do try and speak Dutch they will usually reply in English anyway! It's really hard to learn to speak Dutch in Holland...
The Germans will tell you they only speak a little English and then proceed to have an intricate discussions about politics, climate change, whatever else they chose as fluently as a native speaker.
The French will grudgingly speak English but only to allow you to understand their insults ;-)
The Spanish will try to speak English, but at such a speed that it might as well be Spanish.
The Swiss won't speak to anyone not carrying a suitcase of money no matter what language you speak to them.
Italians won't listen to you - they just interpret your body movements.
Japanese will say yes if you ask them if they speak English, but they will say yes if you ask what day of the week it is or if you can sleep with their wife or what colour is the sky...
Most of the English don't speak a recognisable form of the language.
Presumably, then, American girls are like Steve Ballmer in their pants?
Gentoo Linux - another day, another USE flag.
You don't know of places that enforce the use of French in Canada? Is that a joke, or do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
Not what he said, I think you missed the second half of that sentence... he's not unaware of them, he's unaware of their being vilified.
"Or to be exact, any idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine."
Our foreign language skills (or lack of skills) are related to necessity. When the number of foreigners entering the US for business greatly exceeds the number of Americans going abroad for business, and when the single largest economy in the world is America, and when America's cultural exports greatly exceed those of any other nation, it's not surprising at all that Americans are less enthusiastic about foreign languages than anyone else in the world is.
For an anecdote, from age 13 to around age 21 I studied, to varying degrees of interest, three different languages. This is actually not that uncommon here - try one, don't like it, try another, not bad, try a third, pretty cool. But every time I met anyone who speaks any of those other languages natively - and I do mean literally every time - they speak vastly better English than I speak their language, and both parties know it. Let me tell you, that is actually a serious hindrance when you're trying to learn. In other words, it's not particularly a cultural deficiency - it's a pragmatic one.
But the groundwork for fluency in another language is there. We all study at least one language for a couple of years. The day it actually becomes more practical to speak a foreign language than to just use English, we'll be speaking foreign languages about as well as anyone else.
You don't know of places that enforce the use of French in Canada? Is that a joke, or do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
The parent said: but I am unaware of people who ... enforce the use of French in parts of Canada, being vilified like the people who push hard for English in America.
He knows they exist - but he's wondering why they're not "vilified" the same way Americans wanting people to speak English are.
A good question! And you two seem to agree - if Spaniards demand you learn Spanish in Spain, why do we also have to learn Spanish at home?
DATABASE WOW WOW
do you not consider Quebec to be part of Canada?
Hell Quebec doesn't consider itself part of Canada so why should I?
"A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it." - K
I just checked the info for Paris and they got the exchange rate wrong:
Can the rest of the article been trusted if they cannot get something so fundamental while working abroad right?
If you're Asian, and you're not Japanese - the Japanese workplace can be downright hostile. (Not from personal experience, but from what I've heard from people who've worked there as foreigners).
Now if you're Caucasian - you can get away with working less than your Japanese counterparts and getting paid more than double their salary. Plus the women there worship the average Slashdotter like a rockstar if they happen to be Caucasian.
Taiwan may be less xenophobic than Japan, but they'll work you 26 hours a day just like in Japan.
There are a huge number of yeast infections in this county. Probably because we're downriver from the bread factory.
The vast majority of Spanish speaking immigrants in the U.S. are not here legally. Passing a higher minimum wage or shorter work week would not help them. When I lived in the southwest, and knew many illegal immigrants from Mexico - most had two jobs. Once again I'm unsure how the kind of legislation you've mentioned could help them.
Where I live now, most of my Spanish speaking neighbors are American citizens via Puerto Rico. They are middle class people who drive nice cars, live in homes just like mine (or nicer) and choose not to learn English because they don't have to.
And I don't have a problem with it - maybe I wasn't clear enough about that. They are free to do whatever they want in my eyes. I'm learning Spanish because that is the way things are going and I don't see the trend reversing any time soon. And once again, I'm fine with that. My entire point of jumping into the discussion is that it seems to me that all over the world, many people seem to resent newcomers who don't assimilate - yet most don't seem to receive the negative press (as far as I can see) as Americans who press for immigrants here to learn English. That's all.
The difference for you, I am willing to bet is volume. If you had the number of immigrants come to your country that we have here, and they moved into neighborhoods where they instantly became the majority, owned the businesses, etc. They wouldn't need to learn the local language.
I have a co-worker who has an aunt that is an American citizen, she has lived here for well over 10 years and she has never learned English. She lives in an area primarily populated with Brazilians and does just fine with Portuguese. I've visited the neighborhood and I'm the one that struggles because I don't know Portuguese. That's less common here than Spanish being a majority language - but the same principle is at work.
I am one of those people that truly enjoys diversity and being around people who are different from me. I thrive on this stuff. I love to travel - to try and really experience different places and ways of life.
Now maybe people integrate well in Finland because the government has done a better job - but I'm skeptical that this is the case. I'll bet that it is more complicated than that and the numbers alone are more to do with the situation than anything else. Just my opinion.
It's hard to believe that's how Micronians are made. Why don't we see it right now by having you both kiss one another?
The best part about overseas work is the ass. Girls don't wax/shave/trim, so it's like richard stallman in her pants. If that doesn't turn you on, I don't know what will!
Spoken with all the experience of an american slashdotter. Isn't the percentage of "never left the country" pretty close to the "not getting any" one?
Live today, because you never know what tomorrow brings
I made the move to NZ 3 years ago. There is some outsourcing going on but it is much more limited. Skills I picked up in the US have proved invaluable here. If you are thinking of making the move, remember that people skills are critical. Further, you have to be open to new cultures and grow a bit of a thick skin (I get anti-US comments from time to time). The biggest problem is the distance from relatives. If someone back home gets sick, it is $3000 plane ticket and a 14hr trip to get back... not to mention the 5th degree you get from the dhs people in customs when returning. (I got body frisked last time I went back.. why?) P.S. the NZ dollar just broke $.60 USD.. so you can sell that house for less and still come out on top. (no kidding!) - posting anonymously as I do not need to show up on any dhs lists... geez it has gotten bad...
It's actually quite easy for a US citisen to get into Europe. Many countries such as the UK, Ireland and Germany consider that they have a "special relationship" with the US and will grant working visas to virtually anyone that's coming over to do a job.
There might be some issues in turning that permanent but I know a lot of guys who have managed that with a minimum of fuss.
Land in a smaller state such as Belgium for example and you can get a passport after 3 years!
A couple of years ago I spent 6 rather pleasant months in Edmonton as an IT contractor for EPCOR -the local power company working on their main power consumption and billing system.
Great City, Great People -long commute (1200 miles one way every other week)
Between the smattering of French speakers and the large # of other European cultures it was almost like being in Europe without the language issues.
There are a lot of IT opportunities in Alberta now thanks to the Energy Boom, but you have to have a job there before they will give you a work permit and if you have priors they may refuse you entry
From the article:
"The U.S. and Europe are slowing down, but hot tech jobs beckon in China, India, and Eastern Europe."
Sure, which is precisely why all of our H1Bs returned home in waves and a large percentage of the available visas went begging this year.
Is you read a couple of paragraphs down, you'll find the story is a plant for a headhunting firm.
"According to Rob McGovern, CEO of JobFox, an international employment agency for IT, in today's global economy, people who truly understand how to do business globally are a minority."
Non-Japanese Asian working in Japan here. Au contraire! The women worship me, the workplace is gentle as a baby's kiss, and I work two hours less than the 26 hours you claim. So there!
On a more serious note, that stereotype about working in Japan has been around for quite a while. But when working abroad (in Japan or anywhere else in the world) there will always be different expectations based on things like race or whatever. The key to a successful experience abroad is not adopting a fatalistic attitude about things. There's almost always an upside, and in the end, your experience abroad is what you make of it anyway. For example, anywhere in the world, if you look the same as the local population, it gives you more opportunities to learn and use the language.
Anyway, back to TFA, Japan and Korea are not mentioned at all, but Japan is still a good place to consider if you are interested in some of the leading technologies here: mobile, robotics, manufacturing automation, and biotech, to name a few. The quality of the jobs available to fresh arrivals from abroad varies quite a bit, though, so some due diligence and networking is probably advisable...
Foreigners can work in India. Provided they have a job and apply for a work permit. Many Indian IT companies are looking for experienced programmers who would be willing to work in India for a few years (for a start).I know people from New Zealand, Holland, UK and US who have been working in India for more than 3 years.
Indian Work Permit
In India, work permits, often referred to as employment visas can be issued either to skilled professionals or to people immigrating to India to fill a specific position for a named company.
Working permits in India are less defined than work permits in many other countries in that the Indian immigration structure does not present detailed requirements for obtaining one.
Work permits are a very subjective area of Indian visa services, however in order to live and work in India all candidates must secure one.
O this learning! What a thing it is - William Shakespeare
Now if you're Caucasian - you can get away with working less than your Japanese counterparts and getting paid more than double their salary. Plus the women there worship the average Slashdotter like a rockstar if they happen to be Caucasian.
The first part is probably true. The second part works both ways. When I was working in Kobe, I often went to a small local drinking bar and did experience Japanese women leaving the dates who brought them there to sit besides me. Sadly, it was not me they went home with.
The secret is to learn how to sing a few songs in Japanese. A pale face in a Japanese karaoke bar who sings songs in Japanese *does* get vast appreciation.
Non-Japanese Asian working in Japan here.
May I ask from where?
The key to a successful experience abroad is not adopting a fatalistic attitude about things. There's almost always an upside, and in the end, your experience abroad is what you make of it anyway. For example, anywhere in the world, if you look the same as the local population, it gives you more opportunities to learn and use the language.
Yeah. I had many good experiences working in Japan, I had some bad ones. I still wouldn't trade it for anything.
The most memorable experience was when I worked for NEC in Kobe. As people entered the building the security guard would look at the badges and say "Ohayo gozaimasu", so it was Ohayo gozaimasu, ohayo gozaimasu, ohayo gozaimasu [see me] Good Morning sir!, ohayo gozaimasu. I always answered back in Japanese when they did that, but ...
Well-timed "gyoi kashikomarishita"s[1] were fun too.
[1] Now obsolete Japanese that means "Yes, sir!" in the context of a samurai to his feudal liege lord.
I get annoyed with language too - and would always make the attempt to speak the local language.
But mostly as a Scottish guy I travel in Europe and people don't want to speak in their local language with me.
Last year, for example, I went to visit Vienna. I tried to speak German to people there - and almost before I'd got the first word out the people I was speaking to switched to English!
My language skills are poor, probably because I was raised with the implicit assumption that "Everybody Speaks English", but I can't say I like it, and I do try to learn when traveling. (Otherwise whats the point?)
[A]ny idiot who expects other people to speak their language is not going to be appreciated. If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Another point is that people who are used to foreigners not knowing their language are extra-special-double-appreciative if you make any effort at all with the local language - say, enough to order another beer and say thank you.
This works in the office as well - even if all you can say in the local language at first is "good morning" and "lunch time", it shows that you are not an entirely worthless human being.
I lived in Germany for a year and a bit with bunch of English people. Our employer was paying for German lessons for us, during work hours no less, but still many of them learned no more than "das, bitte!" (that, please!), coordinate with a pointing finger. This did not go down well with our hosts, who simply ignored them and froze them out. Come to think of it, by the end the only people in the German lessons were a Turk, a Canadian, and me... All the Englanders were moaning about how nobody would talk to them!
" There is a rational explanation for everything. There is also an irrational one. "
If you are Spanish and use English to speak to Dutch guys in Amsterdam you are fine. But if you are American and expect them to speak in English, not so fine.
Its the expect bit that gives Americans a bad rep. I have lived abroad for over 7 years and shudder thinking of the stories where Americans betray all decency, manners and courtesy in the face of uncertainty (to be fair, the English are generally shit as well). That Spaniard is simply going to give English a try and see if it works, not really caring if it doesnt. The American will give it a try, but LOUD and exaggerate all body movements in an attempt to communicate not only their intent, but also the fact they are American.
My girlfriend works in hospitality. She and her friends can tell stories about much Americans complain about absolutely nothing. My theory for this is that we yanks have grown used to a level of service that is ridiculous, that when we travel, that the service in other countries mimicks the lifestyle... easy going. And this frustrates and annoys Americans. Most people know when this happens, Americans feel they need to let everyone know. And this is where we deserve our reputation.
Europe vs USA.
What time is it/will be over there? Check with my iPhone app!
The infoworld links in the summary are crap -- anyone have a real suggestion or article or website or whatever? Not necessarily or exclusively about IT (c.f. How To Get Laid In Japan -- caveat, that's many years old by now. I'm sure japanese sexual mores have completely changed and they're all puritans now) although IT is what I and most other /. readers would be most interested in, obviously.
FreeBSD for the impatient.