New MacBook Case Leak Rumors

Someone noted that there are more macbook case leaks which look to all but confirm a new MacBook and possibly a MacBook Pro expected to be announced for later this week. There seem to be fewer ports, and no leaks of a 17" aircraft carrier laptop.

Comments

whoopdifriggindo

[Plantain]

whoopdifriggindo.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[Anonymous Coward]

I wonder why this is "offtopic"? I know this is what I was thinking when I read the article. Do we need a /vertisement each time a vendor releases a new product? No innovation here.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[$RANDOMLUSER]

No kidding. Here's a logged in user first-posting something the article was later tagged as, and somehow it's "offtopic".

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[Jugalator]

I've been waiting for several months for an updated product line from Apple, so it's at least news to me. OS X has an even larger market share than Linux on the desktop, and we damn sure read about every little Ubuntu release here... I don't really see the problem. Apple is getting bigger too, not smaller.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[ROMRIX]

Apparently That's what happens when you give a Mac Fanboy a few mod points.

After reading what I just wrote I see that that statement was a little over the top obvious wasn't it.
Almost to the point of not having to be said. Oh well, whoopdifriggindo!

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[KeX3]

Difference is that apple has not released anything, nor have they confirmed that they are releasing anything, it's all just speculation - ergo not newsworthy at all. In other news: Scientists say that the sun will rise again tomorrow. Stay tuned for more information, and pre-rise photos of famous landmarks.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[byolinux]

This is a website primarily for free software and GNU/Linux news though. I know in recent years that has weakened slightly, but I think the release of a bunch of software that everyone is encouraged to download, share, study, modify, run and distribute is somewhat different to 'proprietary software company release new model of their $2000 operating system dongle' in terms of its usefulness to society.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[bonch]

Do we need a comment from every person who doesn't think a story should be on the front page when all they had to do was scroll past and not read it?

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[Anonymous Coward]

Aw fuck you k?

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[Jugalator]

So rumors are suddenly not welcome on Slashdot? Wow, that's a first!

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[Jugalator]

This is a website primarily for free software and GNU/Linux news though.

The Linux section is for that, with the major stuff "leaking" into main, yes. I agree.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[cryptoluddite]

whoopdifriggindo is a tag, not a post.
whoopdifriggindoisatagnotapost is a tag.

That's why it's offtopic.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[mabhatter654]

actually, they have a press conference about notebooks scheduled for tomorrow.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[evilbessie]

Kudos on the dongle comment, you hit the nail on the head. Maybe someone should release a shiny Linux distro which only runs on their hardware*, then it might really be the decade of Linux on the desktop.

*yes I am aware this is a silly statement

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[node 3]

This is a website primarily for free software and GNU/Linux news though.

Citation needed.

That's one part of what slashdot is for, and it seems likely that that's primarily why *you* are here, but that's not a universal. Besides, even if it *is* the primary reason for slashdot (it's not, but let's just pretend), then if there is a primary purpose, there would reasonably be articles with secondary purposes, like this one.

Some additional purposes of slashdot are:

1. Gaming
2. Sony bashing (this has waned significantly)
3. Fawning over Apple (what this article is about)
4. Security scaremongering
5. Predicting the death of various technologies
6. Tech politics
etc.

I know in recent years that has weakened slightly, but I think the release of a bunch of software that everyone is encouraged to download, share, study, modify, run and distribute is somewhat different to 'proprietary software company release new model of their $2000 operating system dongle' in terms of its usefulness to society.

I agree. At least with OS X, society can actually use the system.

I submit that more people listen to music, share photos and videos, video chat, etc, because of Apple's hardware and software and than because of Linux. Maybe some day (a day which perpetually seems to be perpetually just ahead, like a horizon that can never be reached) Linux will catch up or surpass Apple's products, but until then, Apple is quite important to society.

On the other hand, more web sites function because of Linux than because of Apple's servers (although in this case, OS X is more able to replace Linux as a web server than Linux is able to replace OS X as a desktop OS).

In other words, each has its place here on slashdot.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[AnotherDaveB]

There's a new Ubuntu release? Tell all!

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[mattack2]

...or they could just turn off the "Apple" section and it wouldn't show up on their front page at all.

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[mdwh2]

Indeed - and three out of the latest five Apple stories are now rumourware. I thought two in a row was bad.

It was bad enough when we got a story everytime something happened to do with the Iphone - even though other phones hardly ever get a mention, even when there's actual news like a new product being released.

Given the high competition for stories on Slashdot, with many stories about actual news getting turned away, I wonder why the need to flood with rumourware?

Re:whoopdifriggindo

[mdwh2]

By that reasoning, why not just let all submissions through to the front page, instead of keeping them in the firehose and then rejecting them? After all, if you don't like the loads of slashvertisements that appear, you can disable all the categories for every company.

(And some of us might like to hear about Apple news occasionally. When it's actual notable news, not repeated rumourware advertising.)

Having seen the pictures

[Chrisq]

i wonder , is that a virtual keyboard!

Re:Having seen the pictures

[Yvan256]

Nope, it's just unlabeled glass keys.

"dera-god-i-need-a-new-machine"...

[Gorphrim]

and a new spell checker

Wait for Tuesday....

[PlatyPaul]

Seriously, we knew more laptops were coming, but it's just one day away to get the actual announcement.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[morgan_greywolf]

Seriously, we knew more laptops were coming [cnet.com], but it's just one day away to get the actual announcement.

Yeah, but the Mac fans are all on the edge of their seats! Gotta know in advance of the announcement! Of course, true Mac fans will all be watching the actual announcement live on podcast tomorrow because The Great and Mighty Steve may actually say something important!

The true Mac fan will, of course, be meditating on all The Great Steve has to say....ooooohhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm......must achieve enlightenment.....oooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm......

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[Anonymous Coward]

You must be new to this whole Apple rumors thing.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[The Great Pretender]

I like the recessed keyboard. It'll act like a drain and funnel spilled liquids into the computer rather than letting them leak on my desk.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[ukdmbfan]

Meh, if it's a choice between that and Steve Ballmer spitting in your face I know which one I'd choose...

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[poetmatt]

Is that when they have the annual chair throwing competition?

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[Yvan256]

What, no reference to flying chairs?

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[lysergic.acid]

actually, the Lenovo x-series tablets have spill-resistant keyboards that channel spills out the bottom of the system without damaging internal components. having a recessed keyboard or not doesn't make much of a difference when there are open gaps where liquids can seep through between the keys. it's what you do with the liquid that gets under the keys that matters.

i don't know if Macs have this safety feature, but having a raised keyboard won't protect it from spills any more than a recessed keyboard.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[0100010001010011]

The best news is refurb store is going to be flooded. I'm looking to replace my 1st Gen Intel MBP with a newer Core 2 Duo Multi-Touch pad.

Full 1 year warranty (just like the new stuff) at a pretty good discount.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yeah, but the Mac fans are all on the edge of their seats! Gotta know in advance of the announcement! Of course, true Mac fans will all be watching the actual announcement live on podcast tomorrow because The Great and Mighty Steve may actually say something important!

The true Mac fan will, of course, be meditating on all The Great Steve has to say....ooooohhhhhhhhhhhmmmmmmmmmmmmm......must achieve enlightenment.....oooooohhhhhhhmmmmmmmmm......

Yeah, gee, if only I could get excited about OOv3 being released I could sit with the cool kids at lunch.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[Phroggy]

Of course, true Mac fans will all be watching the actual announcement live on podcast tomorrow

You know Podcasts aren't live, right?

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[Anonymous Coward]

I's starting to think that the anti-(mac fanboys) are more annoying than the mac fanboys.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[Black-Man]

Or maybe its because we follow the one of the last American innovative companies! Apple's stock was flat last week... how about the rest of the tech sector?

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[morgan_greywolf]

whooooosh.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[ukdmbfan]

I think that said enough really, I'm saving up the myriad of other reasons for other arguments.

Seriously though, since when was Steve Jobs' ability and skill as a marketer and product promoter something to whine about when relating to a business? He's not there to make friends with Richard Stallman. I'm not even convinced that's possible. If you really had to choose someone to promote your product, does anyone really believe that the near-evangelism that Steve Jobs has created in an industry that's previously found it hard to be seen as even interesting is a bad thing?

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[Anonymous Coward]

Because, you know, spilling liquid on a non-watertight keyboard did WONDERS for laptops before they had recessed keyboards.

Re:Wait for Tuesday....

[morgan_greywolf]

Right. Because there's no innovation out of Intel, AMD, Sun Microsystems, IBM, Microsoft, Zope, Red Hat, HP. etc.

If you have purchased a computer in the last 5 years, you have purchased innovations from at least two of the American companies I just listed. Even if it was an Apple.

Boring.

[LWATCDR]

Okay this is just dull. A new case? There really better be more to it.
Things I would love to see.
A new Mac Cube. A slightly larger mac mini with a PCIe slot for a video board ,a 7200 RPM drive, maybe room for an extra drive, and two to four dimm sockets.
Price $499. It would kill HP and Dell in one fell swoop.
A mac Netbook.
Back in the day the Steves tried to make computers for everyone. Now the Steve makes them for the "elite". Kind of sad in a way.
Yes I do like their good design work and great OS but they are making money hand over foot so why not go for a knock out?
The Apple Volksputer.

Re:Boring.

[Hadlock]

A mac mini with pci-e and adequate ventilation and I'd buy one tomorrow - and I don't say things like that too often. Dissapointed in the direction mac laptop keyboards have been moving. I love the "scissor action" of my "TiBook" powerbook but I can't stand the flat keys/odd feeling 'spacing'.

Re:Boring.

[Anonymous Coward]

pci-e won't do you any good. Apple's is non-standard. You are limited to whatever they list on their site. That ain't much, and you'll find they're somewhat dearer than the equivalent PC boards.

Re:Boring.

[Anonymous Coward]

The case of the leaky aircraft carrier?

Re:Boring.

[Anonymous Coward]

Mmm, not quite. The hardware is completely standard, the stopping point is more software: firmware on the card and driver support in the OS. There are also third-party cards, for example a number of mac vendors now offer radeon hd 3k and 4k boards.

Re:Boring.

[Sockatume]

The "new case" really is the interesting part if various rumours are to be believed. Word has it that Apple's fabricating the shells from aluminium using a proprietary laser/hydro cutter setup, and has slashed costs as a result. They may even be constructing the shells and assembling the machines in-house now, something they dabbled with in the past. A leaked price list for the new range of notebooks includes a $800 machine that may well be the new entry-level Macbook.

Re:Boring.

[cawpin]

I would buy two.

Re:Boring.

[Anonymous Coward]

What I'd like to see: unbundle OS X and partner with vendors such as Dell and OEMS such as Intel, AMD and nVidia and give me the bit that I want without the overblown, overpriced hardware I most certainly will not buy.

Re:Boring.

[TJamieson]

Not dull to me-- they're apparently killing off FireWire in the MacBook!

Re:Boring.

[LWATCDR]

If apple started to manufacture systems themselves then yes that would be big news. The problem is all the leaks seem to come from China so I don't think that is a big deal.
Machining the case? Well CNC milling is very old. A new production process that makes it cheaper. Mildly interesting to the end user and only if it drops the price of the case.
Now if they where casting them then that might be interesting but milling seems like a waste. I know they will recycle the scraps but I would think casting would be more eco friendly.

Re:Boring.

[gsgriffin]

Funny! You're asking for a Mac to be like an average WinPc but with the Mac OS. Why are we not simply begging for Apple to sell the OS like MS? Oh yeh, it would crap out with huge variety of hardware options and then have to deal with what MS deals with. Forget it. Leave the Apple monoploy like it is. If the Mac fanboys get their way, there will be no options on who you buy a computer from and what OS it will run. Apple will make MS look pale in comparison to the big-brother concept and a monopoly. You will just have to hope that Apple will always provide you the cool things and great innovations...even when they are not having to compete hard to be first. Is that the reality we are hoping for? Really? Then their marketing definitely sold you. Love the OS. Don't care about the hardware (or new potential hardware), hate the idea of one company controlling both hardware and software...no matter who they are!

Re:Boring.

[_Sprocket_]

Back in the day the Steves tried to make computers for everyone. Now the Steve makes them for the "elite". Kind of sad in a way.
Yes I do like their good design work and great OS but they are making money hand over foot so why not go for a knock out?
The Apple Volksputer.

Back in the day a computer "for everyone" was a proprietary product in an industry of proprietary products. Today's market is largely dominated by commodity hardware with more and more pressure towards commodity software as well.

Commodity markets are difficult environments; especially to achieve growth. This market is difficult enough that IBM, the very company who introduced the platform that became the basis for this commodity market, has taken steps to distance itself from it (selling off their PC division to Lenovo). Meanwhile Compaq, the company that created the commodity market with the first "PC clone", has long since surrendered leadership of the market to the likes of Dell. And even Dell is having trouble in this space.

The interesting thing here is that Apple actually touches on this market. They are mixing in aspects of commodity software and hardware in to their products. But everything they do includes elements to distance themselves from the mainstream commodity market. Most of these steps are technical (proprietary firmware, APIs, etc). Pricing is just another method.

Re:Boring.

[Sockatume]

Oh, I agree, it's all about how much this affects the price rather than the details of Apple's manufacturing process (unless it's something they can make money from licencing to others, which I doubt). Whether it's through new fab methods or magic pixie dust, the staggering idea is that Macs might become spec-for-spec cheaper than PCs, in addition to their current aesthetic and software advantages. That would be really game-changing.

Re:Boring.

[_Sprocket_]

Machining the case? Well CNC milling is very old. A new production process that makes it cheaper. Mildly interesting to the end user and only if it drops the price of the case.

Depends on who the end user is. I would imagine it could have a real interest if it means really solid cases without the premium price.

Re:Boring.

[LWATCDR]

"I would imagine it could have a real interest if it means really solid cases without the premium price."
Not really. Again all you care about is the results and the cost. Which is the way things should be.

Re:Boring.

[_Sprocket_]

OK. I think I see your point. Its not the how that's important, it's the end product. I agree in so far as that's what's important to the end user. So if it means a better product (better construction quality), that's what will get consumer interest.

Having said that - the how of things ARE interesting. It might all be black boxes and magic to the consumer. But there's a lot of hobbiests and industry watchers who like to know the HOW of things as well. That makes it easier to understand where things are now and where things are going in the future.

Re:Boring.

[node 3]

Again all you care about is the results and the cost. Which is the way things should be.

Neither statement is true. Many people are interested in the process (otherwise, there would be no rumors about it). Many people are concerned about secondary effects of the process (otherwise Greenpeace would have no support).

As for if that's how things should be, my opinion is the exact opposite. Caring solely about the end results, and the cost, is too limiting a mode of human existence. Or if you mean "end results" in a way that I'd agree with (such as, "the environmental impacts, the aesthetics, the neat-o factor of the process," etc.) it becomes so nebulous as to lose the tight meaning and focus the phrase has when used the way you have.

And cost. I'm not alone in being willing to pay more for things I value above those I value less, even for non-critical or non-primary reasons. Life's too precious and the possibilities are too wondrous to limit oneself to the cheapest solution which meets the primary requirements.

Re:Boring.

[LWATCDR]

"possibilities are too wondrous to limit oneself to the cheapest solution which meets the primary requirements."
And I say it is wrong to waste.
If you notice I wondered if casting might not be less wasteful of energy and accomplish the same task.
The cost should include the impact as well as just the dollars.
So yes a cheap case that will break and have to be replaced is more expensive than one that will last.
But the best solution is the cheapest that meets the primary requirements. One should just be careful with the requirements.

Re:Boring.

[node 3]

One should just be careful with the requirements.

I addressed this. Specifically, you're just hiding complexity behind a simple statement, and pretending the complexity no longer exists.

To quote you again:

Again all you care about is the results and the cost.

"The results", in this context, is meant to covey simplicity. You were refuting someone who was saying that the process might be interesting to someone. But just now you are rolling that back into "the results".

So, either it's just the end product, and the cost, or it's "the end product, including all related effects, such as environmental waste, aesthetics, neat-o processes, etc, and so on", which is the exact opposite of your initial statement.

Re:Boring.

[Hadlock]

As long as I can triple boot it to play TF2 in windows and tinker in linux, I don't care if the pcie car works under osx

Rumors that the case leaks?

[feepness]

Well, there goes my plan for cooling with mineral oil!

Re:Rumors that the case leaks?

[thered2001]

In my professional experience, I've found that at least 9 out of 10 laptop cases leak. Try taping up all the holes to keep your oil in!

Actually, this is slightly interesting

[thered2001]

It looks like they fixed a problem I have with the current MacBook Pro: hairs near my wrists get stuck in the tiny crack between the top surface and the gray plastic edge. The new design seems to have abandoned this (albeit, very minor) irritant. Not sure this needed /. front page position, though.

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

in the gay community, a hairy man is often referred to as a 'bear' !

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[thered2001]

LOL! I don't know if this is intended to be informative or insulting...but I'm slightly less a 'bear' now thanks to my MacBook Pro.

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[argent]

Sounds like you shouldn't hack on the night of the full moon. :)

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

If the seam is instead on the bottom of the case, it could be a lot worse.

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

You seem pretty knowledgeable about the gay scene.

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[Phroggy]

My mom had complained about that too - not hairs getting stuck, but just it being uncomfortable. I'm glad to see that it's fixed.

Re:Actually, this is slightly interesting

[Anonymous Coward]

There are pamphlets available, if you're looking for information on it.

Sorry,

[Shivetya]

Nothing is going to kill Dell/HP except for themselves. The simple fact is most people buying PCs don't care about Mac because it does not have Windows on it. I know some live in a fantasy world but it is true, people don't care. If it works and they are used to it they will keep it.

As for those specs, Apple is doing a good job of moving further away from end user friendly hardware with each and every release. Steve isn't making computers for the "elite", he is making computers that make Apple money and making Apple money means that if you want an upgrade you buy a new computer.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

I don't think you get it. People don't want Windows anymore. They want their software. I see more and more people buying Apples then running Windows on bootcamp, Fusion, and Parallels. The average home user just need a browser, email, iTunes, Quickin, and TruboTax. Maybe a few casual games.
The average home user can already move to the Mac with little to no problem.
The big thing is cost. If apple would come out with a Mac Mini that only cost $499 and was expandable You would see even more people buy them. The game market for the Mac would massively increase as would video card options.
People only buy Windows machines for two reasons. They are cheap or they have to run some program under windows.
Apple is already increasing their market share and more and more developers are porting to the Mac. Soon it will be only the the cost that keeps people on Windows.
Heck I am a Linux guy at heart but If Apple produced a $499 expandable Mac I would buy it.

Re:Sorry,

[Count Fenring]

Yeah... except that people do care. Maybe people aren't switching en masse out of hand, but Mac's percentage of the market has been rising, and (anecdotal evidence, yada yada) I know several people who've made the switch already, and several others who are just waiting for the end of their current computer's useful lifetime. Not that Mac is going to suddenly overwhelm the PC market, but it's not infeasible to compete with and/or overthrow monopolies, just hard. Plus, the likelihood of Dell/HP killing themselves isn't really small enough to discount.

Also, people don't actually buy computers for Windows. In fact, if Vista showed anything, it's that people buy computers FOR THE COMPUTER. If the OS makes it look more likely that the computer will be buggy, well, that will inhibit growth.

A lot of Mac's decisions do irk me, but I also feel that I have to point out that they're close to being as upgradeable as the PC in each product subcategory. Their laptop isn't particularly locked down by laptop standards, although it does lack a fscking manual eject on the CD-ROM*. The iMac is at least as upgradable as Gateway's or Sony's "Computer + monitor," and isn't a piece of crap, to boot. The Mini... well, the Mini is locked down, but it's also half the size of the Shuttle mini cases. The Mac Pro... I've not looked at it, but it seems upgradeable enough.

* Off topic, but holy crap I hate that there's no way to physically force the Mac laptops to give back your CD if it can't recognize that it has it.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

As opposed to the sieve that is Windows? Apple has a good number of machine out now and no where near the exploits of Windows. Could Apple do better? Yes they could but then the number of Windows issues I have had to deal with over the years makes that look trivial.

Re:Sorry,

[not already in use]

Windows has over 90% of the desktop market share, and well over that in the corporate environment. Windows XP and Vista are far more thoroughly scrutinized. You can thank OS X security to it's sub 10% market share. If, overnight OS X jumped to 90% market share, it would be torn to pieces. Security on OS X is nothing more than a facade.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry too. Cause if I go into a coffee shop that has free wifi I see about 50 non-Mac machines and maaaaybe 1 Apple out of the whole bunch. I don't get where "I see more and more people buying Apples" comes from unless you work in an Apple store. Seriously, their share is growing but I wouldn't go acting like there's some form of Apple revolution going on that you see but the rest of the world is blind to. I have at least 2 clients who own 1 Apple machine each but continue to buy Acer, Dell, etc. not Apples as you seem to imply that they will. Sorry, being a fanboi doesn't make your hallucinations a reality.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

I have dealt with the mess that is Windows for a very long time. Windows security has been none existent for a long time. It is just now getting to be one step above a terrible joke. Guess what? I work for a software developer. So I do know windows inside and out. It is ugly ugly ugly.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

I assume you mean expandable with an open architecture? Nope.. not gonna happen. Apple has done very well controlling the hardware platform. It greatly reduces the number of hardware related bugs you have to manage. Imagine all the hassle of "oh, you have an NVidia card? Call Nvidia for support"

People buy Windows/Linux boxes for many reasons, one of which is that you have more hardware flexibility, but it comes at a cost.. less platform stability.

Re:Sorry,

[not already in use]

I work for a software developer

Well, those are some impressive credentials. What are you, secretary? Assistant (to the) regional manager?

So I do know windows inside and out.

Oh, so what does this imply? That you know the .NET stack? In-depth knowledge of the Win32 API?

Can you at least make an argument without using baseless claims and accusations? Anecdotal evidence, hard evidence, anything?

Re:Sorry,

[loconet]

I recently went back to school after some years of working in the industry. To say that people don't care if the computer does not have Windows on it is a conjuncture that might have had some validity in 2001. Now a days people are not afraid to leave Windows. I look around at most of my classes and 8/10 kids with laptops are actually using Apple! These are the same kids who in a couple of years will be graduating and going into the industry. I predict a major shift away from Windows. It has already started. Microsoft is slowly becoming less relevant.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

Not prioritising security fixes just because your primary competition is much, much worse isn't a trait / policy that makes me want to buy from Apple much.

Re:Sorry,

[bazorg]

The average home user just need a browser, email, iTunes, Quickin, and TruboTax. Maybe a few casual games.

so those guys wanting to exchange Linux netbooks for the WinXP version are not average users?

Re:Sorry,

[AIkill]

Actually, many people are just unaware of the options they have. Truthfully, people dont care a much about OS as they do hardware. Programs and applications are fine and all, but a average user judges a computer based on its hardware specs. A bigger problem for Macs is that they are not as available as PCs. You can find PC stores in almost every town out there. However Macs are only available in some areas and there are far fewer repair locations that are not places that just ship the Macs back to Apple.

However, if you want to talk about OS and applications, Apple themselves have put up a barrier to that. In order to actually develop programs for Macs, you have to pay them quite a bit of money just to get the basic dev tools, and even more in order to make higher end programs. Windows and Linux on the other hand dont have this problem. In the end, what needs to happen is people should be made aware of what each OS is really ment for. Mac OSs are very good with media manipulation and graphic design, Windows is good with business software, servers, and games, and Linux is just as good at all of these, it just has a problem with many people not knowing about it.

Well, that does it for this rant. So now i go back to my little hovel and custom, self-built triple OS monster.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

I didn't know that they had Linux versions of itunes and quickin?
Actually nobody that buys a netbook is an average user. And that was from one manufacture. I believe it since none of the netbook versions of Linux I have seen have been that good.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

"Apple themselves have put up a barrier to that. In order to actually develop programs for Macs, you have to pay them quite a bit of money just to get the basic dev tools, and even more in order to make higher end programs."
Huhh?
Okay do you know how much MSDN+Visual Studio costs?
The professional version is $1,199 per year!
It goes up from there.
For the ADC it starts at $499. But you can get ADC online version which includes XCode for... Free.
Apple is if anything is cheaper than Windows for the official developers packages.
Free "gcc" development tools are available for both.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

"Sorry, being a fanboi doesn't make your hallucinations a reality."

And mob mentality drivel won't make me use a Windows machine either. So suck on that.

Re:Sorry,

[The_DoubleU]

However, if you want to talk about OS and applications, Apple themselves have put up a barrier to that. In order to actually develop programs for Macs, you have to pay them quite a bit of money just to get the basic dev tools, and even more in order to make higher end programs. Windows and Linux on the other hand dont have this problem.

Apple provides xcode, dashcode, Quartz composer, SDK's, and documentation all on the install CD. If I want to start developing it will cost me nothing.
Sure there is a developer program that you have to pay for and that will give you some extras and you have to pay for the iPhone SDK.
Where are all those great developer applications for windows, do they come with the vista install cd?

Re:Sorry,

[bonch]

UNIX runs the Internet, so I suspect OS X has the more scrutinized foundation. Simply blaming popularity for Windows' myriad of problems over the years compared to OS X ignores that Win32 began as a single-user subsystem and that Microsoft ignored the Internet until 1998.

Another counterargument is that Apache has higher market share than IIS, yet IIS has had more security flaws over the years. By your reasoning, Apache should be the one with more flaws.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

will the last windows user on the planet kindly turn off the lights ?

Re:Sorry,

[not already in use]

UNIX runs the Internet, so I suspect OS X has the more scrutinized foundation.

Yeah, I've heard this fallacy before. Are you going to tell me that the Unix that "runs" the internet in anyway resembles the Unix that runs OS X? OS X is a hybrid kernel to begin with, so that's strike one. Strike two, it's Unix with an entire desktop stack on top of it, which is where the majority of your exploits are introduced.

Simply blaming popularity for Windows' myriad of problems over the years compared to OS X ignores that Win32 began as a single-user subsystem and that Microsoft ignored the Internet until 1998.

Microsoft had a terrible track record on security. So, using that reasoning, can I use pre-OS X (or, pre-OS X 10.2 for that matter) examples to justify my point? In fairness, I look at MS track record post XP SP2.

Another counterargument is that Apache has higher market share than IIS, yet IIS has had more security flaws over the years. By your reasoning, Apache should be the one with more flaws.

Desktop software and Server software are entirely different beasts, and you're comparing them apples-to-apples. For one, a server is usually administered by a professional, which is certainly not the case with Desktops. Secondly, the number of desktop computers running Windows far outnumbers the amount of servers running any operating system. And lastly: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html IIS is number two overall, behind freeBSD. Must not be that insecure.

Re:Sorry,

[Jorophose]

Sure, Apple's engineering, for cooling and fitting stuff in, is one of the best, and I love the work they do.

But do you really think you're going to get that 499$ expandable Mac? Do you really think that's going to be what you were expecting? Apple is notorious now for laptop parts in desktops. They want to make high margins. That's how Steve rolls. I really doubt you're going to get an open platform.

And, who wants to be tied down to Apple? Really? Assuming it would come with a Core 2 Duo E4500 or Pentium-DC5200, with the exception of a PCIE slot I could do better for the same price with a Shuttle. Need PCIE? Well, I know there's one with the CN896 boards by VIA, so you might get lucky and get a dual-core Nano sooner than your hoped for.

Or you get yourself a miniDTX board and get your PCIE slot like that. For less and more open.

Apple is not going to move down in pricing. To do that is death for a company like that. They can't move units like Dell or HP can, because their customer service sucks. (I'm not going to remove 40 screws to pull out a hard drive, I'm not going to mail you my stuff, I want you here tomorrow or you're taking all this shit back) The only people who Dell and HP make a profit on for low-margin units are enterprise/business users. A few million desktops a day making a couple bucks each in true profit is the way they roll, and Apple just can't compete.

So yeah, I'd love it. But don't kid yourself. Apple knows that if people are willing to buy a 600$ mac mini because it runs OSX, they have no reason to make OSX more open or give them a mini-tower mac; what exactly is the point of a tower mac? I could buy a Dell Vostro for 300$ and get better parts. Better quality? On a tower?!? How much better can you get? OSX? What real advantage does it have?

If they want to do it, good for them. But I hope they realise they'll never make a profit with it.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

Hard evidence that windows has suffered a multitude of security breaches over the years?
What planet have you been one.
My favorite windows bug? I wish I could find it now but there was an ascii file that if you used the type command on it would BSOD.
And then there is the bug in MFC that causes a GPF if a synaptic touch pad driver is used.
This is online forum and you are using stupid political tricks to try to dismiss statements that you don't like.
Never said that OS/X was prefect but to claim that Windows is more secure flies in the face of years of evidence. I will say that I have had very few problems with my machine but then I do know what I am doing and don't use IE or Outlook. But since OS/X is built off of BSD I would bet that it will have a much better security history than Windows.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

"OSX? What real advantage does it have?"
System wide spell checker.
Time machine.
Quick look.
And a much better development platform.

Dell's are not bad machines and I think Apple can match them for price for quality any day. I think you are way under estimating the benefits of OS/X.

Re:Sorry,

[Jorophose]

I'm just asking if OSX would be really worth the price of a new computer.

I have system-wide spell checking under Linux; the programs just need to support it (I don't think it would be too tough to add in aspell support). Time Machine could be done; I thought about that one, but can't rsync have versioning? (assuming TM can do that...) Konqueror has been doing "quick look" for a while now thanks to KParts.

And as for better development platform, although I'm a Python + Perl person, I hear GnuStep (if you like Objective-C) and C# (if you're stuck on windows) are good to program with. (but then again I hear horror stories about MSDN, so I don't know.)

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

I was comparing OS/X to Windows.
Linux has one real problem I see left. It lacks an effective way to market software.
The differences in distributions still makes selling off the shelf software a challenge. I keep hoping that Ubuntu will see the light and bring an iTunes like software store to Linux. I do not believe that you can have a successful desktop without a place for none FOSS software. I will even say that it is about freedom. The freedom to choose. If I feel a program is worth the money then pay for it. If I can find a free program that does what I need then use that.
When a Linux users can download shop for software then Linux will have a real chance.
And yes I have and us Linux on my desktop at home. I only boot into Windows for a few games.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

uh, ever heard of visual studio express? it's free you know..

Re:Sorry,

[petermgreen]

What course are you doing?

Re:Sorry,

[mattwarden]

The "average home user" can run Ubuntu and never know the friggin difference. Who cares about home users? It's the business world that keeps Windows alive, and that's not news, buddy.

Re:Sorry,

[evilbessie]

I've been using the Internet since 1993 on WfW...

Re:Sorry,

[petermgreen]

but I also feel that I have to point out that they're close to being as upgradeable as the PC in each product subcategory.
True, the thing is apple doesn't make anything directly comparable to normal PCs so those who want to run OS-X "legally" are pushed into buying a weird system.

The mac mini is far less upgradable than a normal low end PC. The imac is far less upgradeable than a normal midrange PC.

As for the mac pro that is highly upgradable but it is very expensive initaly and ram and graphics upgrades require special parts (the ram seems comparable in price to server ram, the graphics cards are far more expensive than equivilent PC cards and there is much less choice).

Re:Sorry,

[Jorophose]

Oh please.

How many servers run UNIX-like operating systems?

How many critical servers run UNIX-like operating systems?

Aren't these more valuable than messing up some looser's porn collection, some random kid's gaming PC, or whatever?

Short of running up and stealing the hard drive, are you able to successfully plant malware in one of these? The only "malware" is rootkits, and that's negated with proper repositories.

Now, Apple may be a different story because of vulnerabilities in different parts of the stack... But when it's been 17 years and no real linux "virus" save proof-of-concept ones that you have to install yourself, and rootkits that only come with tainted packages (and again, this doesn't matter because unlike with windows you have trusted repos), that we have yet to see a linux virus surface, and yet likely millions or billions of windows ones, it does not bode well for you.

Windows is inheritely insecure on a network. It was designed by people who thought the internet would never catch on (oh how delicious those words were!). It was designed as single-user. It was designed with a browser/file manager that could be used to destroy the entire system, hijacking it with a small applet tool developped by MS and encouraged by them.

Take your FUD elsewhere.

Re:Sorry,

[node 3]

If, overnight OS X jumped to 90% market share, it would be torn to pieces. Security on OS X is nothing more than a facade.

By that logic, Linux is even worse. And don't even bring up BSD!

I've never understood this argument. If OS X was so insecure, why would hackers go after the paragon of security that is Windows (/sarcasm) and instead go after that 5% of computers whose security is "nothing more than a facade"?

Even if OS X was just *barely* secure enough to keep hackers going after the much more difficult, but more numerous, Windows user base, there would still be at least some actual Mac attacks.

The more likely explanation, though, is that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Re:Sorry,

[FrozenFOXX]

The differences in distributions still makes selling off the shelf software a challenge.

Not trying to troll here, but I'm curious. What differences? Like the packaging system? That's about the only one I can think of given that every mainline Linux distro supports GTK and Qt in its own nifty package manager and honestly if you're not using a mainline distro you already know what you're doing to begin with.

If it's anything other than package system I call laziness. And yes, that's as a Gentoo/Slackware/(K)Ubuntu user. All the Linux community wants is a little help to start, we'll take it from there.

I keep hoping that Ubuntu will see the light and bring an iTunes like software store to Linux.

You mean like Magnatune integration into Amarok? Personally I'd just like to see a button in the music player that jumps you over to Amazon.com's MP3 service or even Napster's MP3 download section (assuming they're still offering it), but then it's not like there are no options on Linux. I've been a much, much, much happier music-buyer ever since I didn't need that crud "iTunes" and could just one-click download a song, DRM-free and everything, from Amazon.

Apologies to hardcore Apple fans, I understand you like iTunes. I don't know how, but I'm glad it works for you.

When a Linux users can download shop for software then Linux will have a real chance.

You mean like Linspire's Click-n-Run? To my understanding it was a disaster, but I could be wrong, I don't follow that distro.


You want to know what a real big problem with software-on-Linux is? Talk to CodeWeavers, ask them how much help they get for making Windows software run on not just Linux but OS X as well. They reach out and are ignored despite the awesome job they do week after week. It's absolutely astonishing...I mean here you have a group of people that come to you and say, "Hey, would you like some more money? We want to HELP YOU MAKE MONEY. No, it won't cost you a DIME. I just need to know if you do something funny with a library so I can make it run nicely for lots of other people, which gains you market share. You don't need to "support" it, you don't need to spend money, you don't have to give up "trade secrets" or anything, just a couple of fairly harmless questions to make you MORE money...for free."

And they're ignored. Seriously, I'm of the belief that the overwhelming majority of software companies have got the dumbest management possible, excepting a certain falling-from-grace super power right now.

But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. I think Linux success will be as much of a surprise to us Linux fans as everyone else, just like everything else in the history of Linux. By pulling in all directions at once sooner or later we figure it out...it's obvious in hindsight, it's impossible for foresight, and that kind of unparalleled flexibility of development is its greatest strength.

Re:Sorry,

[Count Fenring]

They do only compete in these niche areas, it's true. But they're still competing in those niches on a level field, upgrade-wise.

I'm not sure on the graphics cards (I believe the Mac Pro just has an PCIE 2.0 slot). Apple does sell cards for higher than average list price, true, and I'm not sure what has driver support in OSX, but I'm not sure how much of that is Apple's fault.

I do think that it's not acknowledged enough that a lot of Apple's vaunted "It just works" comes from the fact that they support a very limited range of hardware, and thus can (and do) do 90+% of their driver development.

Re:Sorry,

[kellyb9]

People don't want Windows anymore. They want their software.

People (as in, the average person) don't want OS X, they want Apple's hardware. It's trendy, hip, fashionable. They want to see that shiny little apple logo on the front of their machines. I'm no apple or MS fanboy either. I'm a Linux guy, but thats what I see.

Re:Sorry,

[not already in use]

But when it's been 17 years and no real linux "virus" save proof-of-concept ones that you have to install yourself, and rootkits that only come with tainted packages (and again, this doesn't matter because unlike with windows you have trusted repos), that we have yet to see a linux virus surface, and yet likely millions or billions of windows ones, it does not bode well for you.

Windows was terribly insecure, while at the same time having > 90% of the market share, and it was a recipe for disaster. If you want to live in the 90's and early 00's, then go ahead, but MS has turned things around in the security department, so don't let your corporate (or FSF) allegiances blind you to that fact.

Now, Apple may be a different story because of vulnerabilities in different parts of the stack... But when it's been 17 years and no real linux "virus" save proof-of-concept ones

Exactly! Virus makers are no different than ISV's - they aren't going to put the effort into creating applications (or viruses) for a system with almost no marketshare! What's the point? But at least you did point out that there have been POC's - which proves the fact that it can be done if someone were so inclined. I've also seen POC viruses for OS X. And, in fact, a local privilege escalation exploit that headlined on Slashdot that I tried out right then and there on my own Macbook Pro.

Windows is inheritely insecure on a network

Really? Example? A good portion of fortune 500 companies run Windows in a corporate environment, if your unsubstantiated claim were true, I imaging MS would be in some hot shit right now.

It was designed with a browser/file manager that could be used to destroy the entire system

Take the previous OS X privilege escalation exploit example and combine with "rm -R /"

Believe me, I've spent a lot of time hating Microsoft over the past 10-15 years. As such, I've run Linux, OS X, even FreeBSD on the desktop. But don't fool yourself, they have turned things around, and for that reason Windows is my current OS of choice, and it subject to change when someone releases anything better.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

"You mean like Linspire's Click-n-Run? To my understanding it was a disaster, but I could be wrong, I don't follow that distro."
Yes it was a disaster. The distro never really got enough traction to make it a good profit center. Plus Lindows from what I saw just wasn't a good distro. A good software store for a not very good distro will fall.

As a developer I will ignore Codeweavers as well. I don't want my windows software to run under Linux until I am done with a native port.
The support issues with Windows are a big enough pain. Under Linux+CrossOver just isn't anything I want to deal with.
As an end user Wine is great as a developer it is a nightmare. My users depend on our software. It really has to work all the time. Codeweaver's solution puts in too many variables. How many distro's will I have to test on? How many will the support staff have to have access too?
Even when we have a Linux version we will only support a few Distros of maybe only one.
Not to be mean or force a choice but so that we can test our software and support our customers.
It is very different when you are giving away software then when you sell it. Also that level of support is one reason why people will sometimes choose to buy software. FOSS is great but I don't know of any FOSS project that offers the same level of support except maybe RH Linux and you do pay some big bucks for that.

Re:Sorry,

[Jorophose]

Um, the POCs require you to compile it yourself. Or run it as a DEB/RPM/urmpi/whatever with root priveledges.

Not exactly easy compared to watching a video that has all sorts of nasties embedded in it.

Re:Sorry,

[not already in use]

By that logic, Linux is even worse. And don't even bring up BSD!

I would agree with that reasoning, chances are Linux on the desktop would be even worse. Most vulnerabilities are going to be introduced in the desktop stack, so they would carry on over to BSD too. From a strictly kernel level though, Linux is still probably the least secure of the three given the rate at which new features are added. BSD variants are notorious for having a highly scrutinized commit/review process, as opposed to the Linux "LGTM" (looks good to me).

Even if OS X was just *barely* secure enough to keep hackers going after the much more difficult, but more numerous, Windows user base, there would still be at least some actual Mac attacks.

There have been proof of concept viruses made for OS X, and real actual viruses. Do a google search, I found plenty.

The more likely explanation, though, is that you have no idea what you're talking about.

Your signature is so appropriate.

Re:Sorry,

[petermgreen]

Afaict cards will only work in OS-X if they are recognised by the EFI firmware and they will only be recognised by apples EFI firmware if they have the right firmware on the card. In other words you can't just go look up a hardware compatibility list and buy a card with the right chipset you have to buy a special apple card with the special firmware on it.

Sometimes it is possible to reflash cards if you can find a firmware dump from a mac card with the exact same hardware as the PC card you are dealing with but doing so almost certainly voids any warranty on the card and probbablly has a nontrivial risk of bricking the card. IIRC it also requires a PC to do the reflashing.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, well as the King of Spain, I know Spanish very well. And your post is *not* Spanish.

Re:Sorry,

[bonch]

Yeah, I've heard this fallacy before. Are you going to tell me that the Unix that "runs" the internet in anyway resembles the Unix that runs OS X? OS X is a hybrid kernel to begin with, so that's strike one. Strike two, it's Unix with an entire desktop stack on top of it, which is where the majority of your exploits are introduced.

It's not a "fallacy" just because you can't refute it. Yes, the UNIX that runs Internet servers around the world resembles Darwin, which is a UNIX-certified operating system using a FreeBSD/Mach core. Second, that UNIX security foundation permeates to the rest of the system because the desktop layer relies on much of those services. In addition, OS X has always been multi-user from the start, unlike Win32 which, last I checked, was still vulnerable to a hilarious window messaging exploit until just a couple of years ago when Vista came out. Vista is NT with the old 9x Win32 desktop system grafted onto it. Until Vista came out, Windows was still setting people up with admin accounts by default.

Microsoft had a terrible track record on security. So, using that reasoning, can I use pre-OS X (or, pre-OS X 10.2 for that matter) examples to justify my point? In fairness, I look at MS track record post XP SP2.

If you want to selectively bias your data, go ahead. This doesn't even have anything to do with the topic of the argument, which was that lack of popularity is why OS X hasn't had Microsoft's miserable security track record. If you want to look at today, how about comparing how many exploits Microsoft patches every Patch Tuesday compared to what Apple puts out in Software Update?

Desktop software and Server software are entirely different beasts, and you're comparing them apples-to-apples. For one, a server is usually administered by a professional, which is certainly not the case with Desktops. Secondly, the number of desktop computers running Windows far outnumbers the amount of servers running any operating system. And lastly: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html IIS is number two overall, behind freeBSD. Must not be that insecure.

I see, so when I refute your argument that being more popular increases your number of exploits, suddenly there's another caveat. First you only wanted to look at data post-SP2, and now you want to make distinctions between desktops and servers. And then you cite one single IIS server, ignoring the countless IIS servers that have gotten 0wned (including the military's website, which ended up switching to OS X!).

The facts remain that:
1.) OS X is built on Darwin, a UNIX operating system. That means UNIX security ideas permeate through the system upward.
2.) Popularity doesn't automatically mean your software gets exploited more, because Apache has a better security track record than IIS.
3.) When these issues are brought up, you invent caveats to avoid refuting them. Somehow, one single IIS server means all the exploits over the years never happened.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

Yep but the original post was.

"However, if you want to talk about OS and applications, Apple themselves have put up a barrier to that. In order to actually develop programs for Macs, you have to pay them quite a bit of money just to get the basic dev tools, and even more in order to make higher end programs."

I simply pointed out that they cost for Mac development was the same or actually in some cases less for the Mac.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

There is a huge home market but your right about business. The thing is that a lot of business systems are moving from Visual Basic to web based apps.
That Terrifies Microsoft.

Re:Sorry,

[loconet]

Computer Sci. Looking around my liberal classes and business courses, the trend seems to be more or less the same. This is very different from what I saw ~8 years ago.

Re:Sorry,

[FrozenFOXX]

As a developer I will ignore Codeweavers as well. I don't want my windows software to run under Linux until I am done with a native port.

Which is all well and good until you run up against a piece of software where there WILL BE NO native port, just the original Windows base. Like quite a bit of software. The developer has no plans and doesn't want to spend any money or time on making it work for Linux/OS X. And that's where CodeWeavers comes in.

The support issues with Windows are a big enough pain. Under Linux+CrossOver just isn't anything I want to deal with. As an end user Wine is great as a developer it is a nightmare. My users depend on our software. It really has to work all the time. Codeweaver's solution puts in too many variables. How many distro's will I have to test on? How many will the support staff have to have access too?

You didn't pay attention to the first part. CodeWeavers goes to the company and offers everything for absolutely nothing, minus a couple of questions for the programmers. YOU, the company, are NOT "supporting" Linux/OS X...CodeWeavers is. YOU, the company, are not testing distros...CodeWeavers is. YOU, the company, don't have to lift a finger for your support staff, project managers, or anyone else and just go right on ahead doing exactly what you were doing before, only now you're selling more since CodeWeavers made your product work on their platform of choice. You didn't even need to pay them.

It's win-win. I'm sure there's a downside somewhere but you'd be hard-pressed to find it.

Even when we have a Linux version we will only support a few Distros of maybe only one. Not to be mean or force a choice but so that we can test our software and support our customers.

Even one or even "unsupported" is usually MORE than enough for a surprising range of software, specifically when dealing with CodeWeavers. Consider WoW. Blizzard has to do NOTHING other than not boot someone using Wine playing their game and they sell a few extra thousand copies (or more, it's always hard to tell unfortunately, but it's still a hot item for CrossOver Games if that tells you anything).

Blizzard did NOTHING, mind you. Not a thing. Didn't lift a finger. However, because of CodeWeavers' work, they now made more money. What's not to like?

It is very different when you are giving away software then when you sell it. Also that level of support is one reason why people will sometimes choose to buy software. FOSS is great but I don't know of any FOSS project that offers the same level of support except maybe RH Linux and you do pay some big bucks for that.

Are you kidding? HP, IBM, heck even Sun will sell you Linux support. CodeWeavers themselves sells support for anything covered in CrossOver and it doesn't even cost too much.

Re:Sorry,

[Fred_A]

I've been using the Internet since 1993 on WfW...

Maybe it's high time you considered upgrading to Windows 98 ?

Re:Sorry,

[Llywelyn]

You know, I'm a senior engineer for a company that does windows development and I wouldn't claim to know it "inside and out."

Re:Sorry,

[Fred_A]

Actually, many people are just unaware of the options they have. Truthfully, people dont care a much about OS as they do hardware. Programs and applications are fine and all, but a average user judges a computer based on its hardware specs.

Most real world users don't have the slightest idea what their hardware specs are. They don't know what CPU they have, if it's 32 or 64 bits, they don't know how much RAM they have or how large their disks are. Best case they
know that they're running Windows, although probably not what exact version.

Users couldn't care less about computers. They find computers roughly as exciting as vacuum cleaners. Computers are a class of device that sometimes helps, sometimes (often) is a hindrance in their daily chores. After a while, they got used to some kind of software. If you change that software, they'll be lost and bawling like newborns without their bottle.

For most of them, selecting files (dis)continuously in a GUI with (Ctrl)Shift-Mouse1 is the hight of hackerdom (and most of them have no idea you can do this).

I wish people would just see GUIs as being essentially interchangeable. But that's certainly know how it goes in real life.

Go tour and support a few real world companies, meet real users in the workplace.
They are not what you think they are.

Re:Sorry,

[Fred_A]

"OSX? What real advantage does it have?"
[ real actual OS X benefits ]
Dell's are not bad machines and I think Apple can match them for price for quality any day. I think you are way under estimating the benefits of OS/X.

When I got my Mac laptop with 10.4, it lasted a year before I gave up and went back to KDE. It's now a trendy paperweight.

There were lots of interesting ideas in MacOS (most of them poorly implemented, like i18n support) but the interface was way too much like Windows (mostly because it's designed for only one app on the screen), and the lack of X11 integration was the last straw for me.

I've been using what I consider to be a high end interface for too long (and I agree that some of those were way clunky such as tvwm or OpenLook back when). Beyond the usual sloppy focus, virtual desktops, network transparency and other X11 interfaces basics, a basic example of mine is binding mouse3 (aka the right button for Windows users) on the border/title of a window to toggle raise and lower (in the window stack). This is such an integral part of my desktop use that running MS Windows or MacOS just feel like some kind of mild BSDM experience.

Just to say that Apple isn't *the* answer. It's merely one among many. And one size certainly doesn't fit all.

While most of my IT activity is moving small companies from Windows to FOSS, I'm not being anal about it and reckon that sometimes Windows is what you want to run. Because "better" isn't an absolute.

Re:Sorry,

[mattwarden]

Agree, but until I can stop submitting proposals in MS Word 97 format (or they will be immediately rejected), I don't think I can move away from Windows soon...

Re:Sorry,

[jvkjvk]

It's not all just "free money" or otherwise companies would jump at the chance. If CodeWeavers was saying they were just gifting other companies with cash (no strings attached) not many would turn them down.

Very likely these other companies have concluded that while there may be more money in this route the risks and extra expenditures aren't worth it. Before you say there aren't any risks or expenditures maybe you should ask yourself the question again - "If it's just free money why doesn't every company jump on this if offered?" You state that it's win-win while blithely ignoring the companies (including the gp) that don't want to do it. Well, perhaps it's not quite so win-win as you think, then?

While I may be hard pressed to come up with a downside some people at some very prominent companies must have come up with enough of a downside to outweigh the "free money" aspect you tout - or they would be in business with CodeWeavers. There must be at least a perceived downside or we wouldn't be talking about this. Perhaps different companies have even found different things they have issues with, which would mean there could be more than one "downside".

Re:Sorry,

[Fred_A]

Linux has one real problem I see left. It lacks an effective way to market software.
The differences in distributions still makes selling off the shelf software a challenge.

Actually, nowadays it's not much of a challenge. You aren't saying if you're using any commercial products, but as I'm doing a bit of photography, I bought BibblePro and the Linux install was fairly painless. Same thing with other photo apps I've tested.
I also bought Antidote (grammar/spell checker for French) where the installation got a bit clunky when you went into installing the applets binding the program into other software (such as OOo or web browsers). That bit should have been done automatically (it was perfectly documented, but there's no reason the installer couldn't have dealt with it).

Re:Sorry,

[Fred_A]

You don't need to "support" it, you don't need to spend money, you don't have to give up "trade secrets" or anything, just a couple of fairly harmless questions to make you MORE money...for free."

For free ? What do they expect ?
You can't offer something for free. Why do they hate America so ?

In everybody's mind, free is worthless, especially in business. They should charge, even a little. They got it all wrong.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

OpenOffice or run MS Word 97 under wine.

Re:Sorry,

[Anonymous Coward]

Microsoft had a terrible track record on security. So, using that reasoning, can I use pre-OS X (or, pre-OS X 10.2 for that matter) examples to justify my point? In fairness, I look at MS track record post XP SP2.

Maintaining security on Windows still takes a lot more effort than doing so on OS X or Linux. The primary reason most people I know who abandoned Windows made the switch was that they were fed up with keeping malware out of their Windows OS... Another common reason is that, ergonomically, Windows just plain sucks. It sucked back in 1995 when the current desktop environment first appeared and it still sucks today some 14 years later if only because it has hardly changed.

And lastly: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html IIS is number two overall, behind freeBSD. Must not be that insecure.

On that list those two IIS servers are blimps in an ocean of Apache servers. One is almost tempted to write them off as statistical anomalies :-D

Re:Sorry,

[not already in use]

1.) OS X is built on Darwin, a UNIX operating system. That means UNIX security ideas permeate through the system upward.

Being UNIX certified does not imply that it is secure. Apple's implementation of UNIX differs greatly from an internal standpoint from anything running mission critical UNIX, so the comparison is ridiculous. The most important aspect of the security model is shared by both OS X and Windows nowadays, in that processes run under the least privileged account possible to perform the given task. Sudo and UAC are synonymous for required privilege escalation. Regardless, it's the implementation that matters, not some arbitrary certification.

Popularity doesn't automatically mean your software gets exploited more, because Apache has a better security track record than IIS.

Can you be more specific? When you say track record, do you mean "websites running Apache/IIS that have been hacked?" Because that does not imply anything wrong with the server software itself. Most hacks have to do with gaining access to the files the HTTP server is serving and altering them. So yes, using your reasoning, way way way more Apache servers are being hacked exploited, not that it's the fault of Apache by any means, but more so the fact that most web servers run Apache -- Thus proving my point.

When these issues are brought up, you invent caveats to avoid refuting them. Somehow, one single IIS server means all the exploits over the years never happened.

Microsoft had a terrible security track record. Who is refuting this? No one. But if you look at the last two years, Apple's track record is the worse of the two. And right back at you, by the way, saying that "Just because OS X is certified UNIX, none of the exploits over the years never happened."

Re:Sorry,

[mattwarden]

I'm guessing you don't do this kind of work...

Re:Sorry,

[node 3]

There have been proof of concept viruses made for OS X, and real actual viruses. Do a google search, I found plenty.

There are zero viruses for the Mac.

The "proofs of concept" are either for holes that have been patched, or are trojans which require the user to actually run them (and enter their admin password). There have been a couple of trojans in the wild, but absolutely *ZERO* viruses.

Re:Sorry,

[mattack2]

(mostly because it's designed for only one app on the screen)

What in the heck are you talking about? I'm running 6 apps right now, and frequently run many more.

My only guess is that you're talking about the menubar at the top of the screen. I much prefer being able to quickly go to the menubar at the top of the screen (where the mouse stops at the top of the screen) rather than have to carefully aim at the menubar in the top of a window. (See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fitts's_law) (BTW, Apple has shipped an OS that allowed apps to put menubars in windows.. The Toolbox on the GS allows that.)

Re:Sorry,

[mattack2]

* Off topic, but holy crap I hate that there's no way to physically force the Mac laptops to give back your CD if it can't recognize that it has it.

If you mean that it literally never mounted or anything, I think holding down the mouse button at boot will do it. This dates from long ago (probably the original Mac) where the same technique worked for ejecting floppies.

Re:Sorry,

[Onan]

It's not obvious, but: boot the system with the mouse button held down. It will eject anything while still down in the firmware, before even getting up anywhere near software that may or may not recognize the disc.

Or alternatively, a little tool like http://www.apple.com/downloads/macosx/system_disk_utilities/forceeject.html should do the trick. First hit on searching Apple's site for "force eject" (actually looking for documentation of the mouse button behaviour).

Re:Sorry,

[GrahamCox]

Apple themselves have put up a barrier to that. In order to actually develop programs for Macs, you have to pay them quite a bit of money just to get the basic dev tools, and even more in order to make higher end programs.

ROFL! Do you ever actually, you know, check facts or anything before posting, or just spout stuff you assume to be true or heard off the bloke down the pub?

Apple ship the entire development suite with every single installation disk of OS X free of charge. That means every Mac buyer has the dev tools, which include the IDE, Xcode, Interface Builder, a version of the GCC compiler, Instruments (dtrace) and many other more minor tools. These are not demo versions or crippled versions, they are all the full blown 100% working professional versions. It also includes comprehensive built-in developer documentation for all of the APIs and technologies. You can code in C, Objective-C, C++, Pascal, Python, Ruby... whatever really, it's all built-in. (Objective-C being the most useful "native" language however). Free updates for the dev tools are downloadable from the web. (Apple Developer Site)

If you want to sign up as an Apple developer, they have three levels of subscription. The lowest level is free - just sign up on the web. The middle and top level subcriptions cost money. For that you get access to developer technical support and pre-release copies of upcoming OS releases. However there are mailing lists that you can make use of even if you have no subscription at all and they are very helpful and staffed by Apple engineers voluntarily as well as other knowledgable developers.

The barrier to entry as a Mac (or iPhone too) developer is nothing at all - install the tools and dive right in. In your case the barrier to entry would appear to be your own ignorance.

Re:Sorry,

[LWATCDR]

Nope I am a coder and I do some work with the sales staff. I am just happy that OO could open a DOCX that I got with a list of tech questions.
I would hope that OO had great compatibility with Word97 and if not I know Crossover office will run it. If you want to use Linux.
The real answer is that they should take PDF unless they must modify the document.

Re:Sorry,

[bonch]

Being UNIX certified does not imply that it is secure.

I didn't say it did. I was responding to your question about whether Darwin resembled the same UNIX that currently powers most of the Internet by pointing out that it is an official UNIX.

Apple's implementation of UNIX differs greatly from an internal standpoint from anything running mission critical UNIX, so the comparison is ridiculous.

If this was true, they wouldn't have received UNIX certification, and UNIX software wouldn't run on it.

The most important aspect of the security model is shared by both OS X and Windows nowadays, in that processes run under the least privileged account possible to perform the given task. Sudo and UAC are synonymous for required privilege escalation. Regardless, it's the implementation that matters, not some arbitrary certification.

"Nowadays" for Windows means "since Vista was released," and most people aren't using Vista for various reasons. OS X has used this sort of reduced privilege execution since its release, while Windows is just now getting around to it. This is part of the reason why Windows has gotten 0wned so many times this decade and OS X hasn't.

Microsoft had a terrible security track record. Who is refuting this? No one. But if you look at the last two years, Apple's track record is the worse of the two. And right back at you, by the way, saying that "Just because OS X is certified UNIX, none of the exploits over the years never happened."

Again, ignoring all the data previous to 2006 is selection bias. You can't pick and choose your data and then make a claim. That's not even getting into your odd claim that Microsoft has been oh-so-secure the last two years, despite all the patches that point to the contrary.

Re:Sorry,

[mdwh2]

At my Uni CS department, it seemed like 8/10 were using Linux, and the rest were mostly made up of RISC OS users.

But I don't think I can claim that's going to be a trend that will be representative of users in general.

Re:Sorry,

[mdwh2]

I don't think you get it. People don't want Windows anymore. ... I see more and more people buying Apples then running Windows

Am I missing something?

If apple would come out with a Mac Mini that only cost $499 and was expandable

If, if, if. As with your OP, it's easy if we can make up specs of a fictional machine. E.g., I could write the specs of a Quad core Amiga for $499 with the latest graphics card, but that doesn't mean anyone's going to build such a machine.

The game market for the Mac would massively increase as would video card options.

Not with the Mini's low end integrated graphics. And even with expansion, developers are relectant to target a machine that requires an upgrade before it can run the game.

People only buy Windows machines for two reasons. They are cheap or they have to run some program under windows.

Rubbish. And this isn't true for anyone I know (including my computer-newbie parents).

Re:Sorry,

[mattwarden]

Yeah. I think things are moving in that direction. But unfortunately these giant companies/governments take a while to make changes like that (sometimes it needs to wait for certain old dogs to retire!). Quite ridiculous, but then again if that weren't the case why would they need to hire outside firms...

Re:Sorry,

[Lars T.]

And lastly: http://uptime.netcraft.com/up/today/top.avg.html IIS is number two overall, behind freeBSD. Must not be that insecure.

So a you are calling a website running on Windows Server 2003 that hasn't been update for 4.5 years, and thus has missed out on both Service Packs "secure"?

Re:Sorry,

[evilbessie]

I was thinking ME...

Portuguese Buyers BE AWARE

[DirtyFly]

I'm posting this to alert any Portuguese buyers who plan to sink any money into a mac, macs are great, OS X ROCKS, but technical assistence is NILL in Portugal, I had my mac book dead, took it ot repair, and 30 days later still nothing !, luckilly I bought it on a good dealer that following the law gave me my $$$ back !!!
If apple does not open a direct office here in Portugal I wont buy a mac again !!!
BE AWARE IMC or Interlog is NOT apple , they are the lousyest exclusive technitians in Portugal !!!
Jorge

Re:Portuguese Buyers BE AWARE

[GrahamCox]

Is your tale of woe because you have a Mac, or because you are attempting to get something done in Portugal? In my experience, you can't get *anything* done in Portugal.

Re:Portuguese Buyers BE AWARE

[DirtyFly]

Well there are plenty of things that can be done in Portugal, but repairing a mac isnt one of them !

nice case. (from what we can see)

[apodyopsis]

Love em, or hate em because of their proprietary leanings and nefarious practices - you have to admit that Apple makes *gorgeous* hardware.

Well, maybe I'll settle for some of the best looking hardware around.

If I could, then I would and extra 50 quid (that's great British pounds btw) for a bare PC in a nice milled metal aluminum case...

When everything is knocked up in China on a cost basis, you lose something in the way of aesthetics..

Re:nice case. (from what we can see)

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple hardware looks gorgeous on websites and when you first get it out of the box.

But then the cheap plastic starts to discolour and your iPhones screen becomes a mess of finger prints even if you wash your hands between every press. Your Macbook case starts to crack a little near the hinges.

Apple hardware should stay in screenshots where it looks pretty and nowhere else.

Re:nice case. (from what we can see)

[Sockatume]

When everything is knocked up in China on a cost basis, you lose something in the way of aesthetics.

Apple's machines are knocked up in China, strictly speaking. Like HP, Dell, etc. they mostly contract Chinese firms to build hardware to their designs.

Re:nice case. (from what we can see)

[mikael_j]

That's strange, my iPhone's screen isn't "a mess of finger prints", but then OTOH I don't eat greasy food while using it, and I wipe it off if it does become messy (about every 2-3 days, takes around 10 seconds).

As for the plastic in consumer Macs, I've had no problem with discoloration, but then I don't blow smoke on them, smear various substances on them or expose them to other hostile environmental factors.

Maybe you should either a) actually use Apple hardware before trolling, or b) treat your hardware a bit better?

/Mikael

Re:nice case. (from what we can see)

[Sockatume]

There's a grain of truth there, in that the current generation of Macbooks had problems with the palmrests discolouring after a few weeks of use. AFAIK this was resolved back in two thousand and six.

17" Mac Book Pro HD = greatest laptop ever

[Anonymous Coward]

Search your feelings, you know it to be true...

Apple posts rock for two reasons

[exabrial]

1. Anti-Mac people let loose a hail storm of complaints which are just hilarious. It's amazing how many people hate apple for no good reason... well other than the pompous attitude of some of it's user base. (why can't we just get back to hating on $MS honestly) 2. I actually like hearing about a company that is innovating in the marketplace rather than shouting, "ME2!!!!!!!!" Can't think of the last time I saw $MS actually invent something they couldn't sue, buy out or copy.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[Registered Coward v2]

I actually like hearing about a company that is innovating in the marketplace rather than shouting, "ME2!!!!!!!!" Can't think of the last time I saw $MS actually invent something they couldn't sue, buy out or copy.

MS does that because they can make a ton of money that way - let someone else do the market research for them, and then swoop in and buy or obliterate the innovator if they succeed; and not spend the R&D dollars if they fail.

Overall, not a bad strategy; fast followers can be very successful if they can execute rapidly.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

Micro$oft == App£e

both suck ass, you tard boy

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[Count Fenring]

Pompous attitude of its user base... ethical concerns over its atmosphere of secrecy and dodgey take on copyright and patent issues... I could go on.

I'm not a Mac hater, but neither are they the shining gods of saving us all.

P.S. It's M$. You know, because the dollar sign looks like an 'S'.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[not already in use]

It's amazing how many people hate apple for no good reason

Hate Apple for no good reason? Apple is the new Microsoft. Apple updater on Windows is malware, installing poorly written USB drivers without your consent to push their DRM agenda while, reducing system stability. iTunes is a huge steaming pile of bloated shit. They NDA they're freaking App Store denial letters, for Christ's sake (along with anyone using the iPhone SDK for that matter). They try to lock you into their overpriced platform. This is the same company trying to DRM a fucking SHOE, so you can't use your Nike+ sensor in a non-Nike+ shoe. Worst of all, the Apple "people" who seem to turn a blind eye to anything Apple does.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[IceCreamGuy]

...$MS actually invent something they couldn't sue, buy out or copy

Yeah, because everyone had things like Exchange Server and Active Directory before '$MS' (Don't you mean 'M$?'). Netware and Groupwise were great in 1998, but welcome to the real world in 2008 where Apple is still irrelevant in the business world and Microsoft has some unique products. Oh, remember how M$ completely ripped off System Restore from Apple's Time Machine? I don't because it actually happened the other way around. Microsoft is a shitty, dirty, underhanded company in a lot of ways, but you clearly don't know why, you are just ill-informed and like '$MS bashing.'

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[Anonymous Coward]

no we had qmail and LDAP instead of the bloated mess that is M$ product "development". M$ has no unique products...oh maybe the bloated ugly crashing piece of shit called vista. Remember how unix completely ripped off tar from M$ System Restore ? I don't because it actually happened the other way around. i agree that M$ is a shitty dirty and underhanded company. no argument there.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[IceCreamGuy]

Here's how your post reads to someone who's not a drunk/zealot:

no we had [generic Unix mail server that doesn't support half the features Exchange does] and [one of the generic directory protocols that can be used used to access Active Directory and isn't even close to the same class of application] instead of the bloated mess that is M$ product "development". M$ has no unique products...oh maybe the bloated ugly crashing piece of shit called vista. Remember how unix completely ripped off [generic archiving format/application that doesn't really have anything to do with MS System Restore besides the fact that it is an archiving app] from M$ System Restore ? I don't because it actually [didn't happen]. i agree that M$ is a shitty dirty and underhanded company. no argument there.

You're just as bad as the Apple guy (are you the Apple guy posting AC?).

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[exabrial]

Actually, I do enjoy bashing. Thanks :)

But I wasn't aware system restore does hourly, weekly, monthly and yearly differential backups of your entire filesystem... You have definitively proved you know much more about these things as I.

Hmm.... I didn't think about the DRM stuff. I don't buy anything off itunes, so never have had that problem. I buy CD's, rip, hide CD's in attic. I have backup copy when Microsoft regularly destroys my linux partition when it detects something "non-microsoft" or a "boot sector virus."

Not sure I feel locked in on my apple box considering all my gnu-utils and everything else open source compiles directly on the BSD subsystem with little modification. I guess if you swing down the ipod route and are too lazy to use your ipod-nikes to go to walmart to buy a drm free cd, then yes, you are locked in by your own laziness and stupidity. Amazingly, all my music and movies play on every one of my systems and in my truck.

Now as pointed out, they ain't a perfect company, but I would say much friendlier than the alternative. Or maybe I'm just biased because i've been burned... But back to why Apple articles rock. We have clearly demonstrated it brings out the best of everyone on here.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[IceCreamGuy]

I should have said Volume Shadow Services, which does exactly what you mention and is what System Restore is built on. Not the point though:

I don't buy anything off itunes

If Apple rocks so much, why not? Is it because they encode in a nearly unlistenable 128Kb/s or because of the lock in? I'll take the lock in, since I actually do exactly the same thing as you with CDs, attic and all, though recently I've been using the Amazon MP3 store.

when Microsoft regularly destroys my linux partition when it detects something "non-microsoft" or a "boot sector virus."

I've been triple-booting for six years and have never had this happen, not once, nor has it happened to anyone else I know that multi-boots. Not saying it hasn't happened to you, just that this isn't something the average dual-booter worries about. (let me know what distro, though, so I can stay the fuck away from it).

My point isn't at all that Apple sucks, but that your blind faith in them and blind hatred for everything Microsoft means that you get some of one world, not the best of both worlds.

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[rbrausse]

> P.S. It's M$. You know, because the dollar sign looks like an 'S'.

new meme! new meme!

App£€

only European currencies but much worse than the single Dollar sign :)

Re:Apple posts rock for two reasons

[Count Fenring]

Mod parent hilarious. Also, p. is the symbol for ruples in Belarus. There's also a p looking thing for Cuban pesos. Not really any A's, though. $Qå...fÂ¥ is probably stretching it too far, though. (It's Sony, if it's not obvious).

Just a guess

[kellyb9]

I'm going to venture a guess and say it will be all white and have a few USB/firewire ports.

Re:Just a guess

[argent]

It looks like it's going to be aluminum and may have no firewire ports.

Re:Just a guess

[0100010001010011]

No Firewire 400 ports. Firewire 800 and 3200 are smaller.

What they need...

[Vandil X]

...a Mac laptop with decent NVidia graphics card capable of playing most popular PC games and MMOs like WoW, EQ2, etc when booted into Windows via Bootcamp... and priced in the $800-$1400 range.

The things would sell like hotcakes.

The currently Macbook Pros underwhelm with their graphics cards at the prices they're listed at.

Re:What they need...

[Anonymous Coward]

You know, that's actually what's rumored to be released tomorrow.
NVidia chipset, 800 USD. Cheaper thanks to new production tech.

Re:What they need...

[Anonymous Coward]

So basically, you want Apple to become just another Windows vendor.

I don't think you understand their business model.

Re:What they need...

[Sockatume]

I think HP make some of those, just without OSX. I kid, but what they really need is a decent graphics card on their consumer range and to drum up developer support for MacOS-specific games.

Re:What they need...

[Anonymous Coward]

WoW runs in OSX and it is also the same cd that installs for windows. Maybe more companies should take the lead like Blizzard.

Re:What they need...

[Anonymous Coward]

Why would you play WoW in bootcamp when every WoW disc contains both the Mac & PC versions? And why would you play EQ2 when you have WoW? It's been my experience that you wouldn't get anywhere in either game if you splintered your time between the two.

Re:What they need...

[Jorophose]

nvidia graphics card

Why no love for ATI? :(

That HD4670 looks pretty sweet. I wonder if you could make a mobile version easily enough? Or would it be overkill?

Goodbye Firewire

[mactard]

First it's the MacBook Air, then the Macbook. Why must Apple destroy Firewire?

whoa

[Anonymous Coward]

you mean the new one's leak toxic gas too!

what a feature!

Er...

[Anonymous Coward]

Wow, timely. You think? Later this week? Known to some... well, okay, everybody... as "tomorrow"?

okay I like apple but

[ILongForDarkness]

Why less ports? My MacBook Pro has less ports than a mid line ThinkPad I had at my last job. I had 3 USB ports I seem to recall, my MacBook Pro only has two. I have one used for an external harddrive/keyboard (they are multiplexed through my monitor) and the other one for my cordless mouse. Great so when I need to use a thumb drive or something I got to choose between my full sized keyboard or my mouse :-)

The sad thing is presumably these extra components have gotten cheaper as USB is old tech as is Firewire. While connectivity realestate is at a premium for a laptop I'd think you'd want to have at least comparable to your competitions mid range offering.

Re:okay I like apple but

[korean.ian]

I fully agree. My wife's HP tablet has more USB ports than the MBP I'm typing this on. Surely adding more ports is the way forward, or at the very least, not removing them?

Re:okay I like apple but

[Fahrvergnuugen]

You should be using BlueTooth for your cordless mouse and firewire for your external drive ;)

Re:okay I like apple but

[SimonGhent]

Why less ports?

Because more people use wireless - the new Apple cordless mouse and keyboard are Bluetooth.

If you have to use a USB mouse + keyboard + hard disk + pen drive you're obviously at home so just buy a USB hub. Extra bonus - only one thing to plug in each time.

Re:okay I like apple but

[SaDan]

Because dealing with dead batteries in your mouse/keyboard is so much better than adding a third USB port.

Firewire is all but dead in the consumer world.

Re:okay I like apple but

[Anonymous Coward]

All the Apple keyboards have a couple USB ports on them. And the cable lengths on Apple's mice, etc, suggests that you plug the mouse in there, not the computer.

My guess is that this case is for something like a revision of the Air, which is hyper-minimal.

Re:okay I like apple but

[HTH NE1]

Firewire is all but dead in the consumer world.

It's still used heavily in the digital video camera market, including HD cameras. I'm interested in getting a new laptop, but it had better come with a 9-pin to 6-pin adapter for connecting Firewire 400 devices to the FW800 port, or I'll have to buy separately a Firewire 800 hub, an adapter, and a Firewire 400 hub.

And having those extra hubs hanging off makes it less convenient to lug around on a video shoot, especially if they want their own external power sources.

Re:okay I like apple but

[rea1l1]

Consider getting a small usb hub. Its what I use.

Re:okay I like apple but

[dfghjk]

too bad the apple mouse sucks so bad

Re:okay I like apple but

[Darundal]

It is Apple, so I would bet it is purely a matter of aesthetics.

Re:okay I like apple but

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

I had 3 USB ports I seem to recall, my MacBook Pro only has two.

What version is that? My Macbook Pro purchased last May has 3 USB ports, plus it has bluetooth that you could run a mouse or KB through.

Re:okay I like apple but

[Anonymous Coward]

Just get a 400-800 cable.

Re:okay I like apple but

[SaDan]

Consumer HD cameras are going towards SDHC for storage. My brand new Canon HF100 has no firewire port, but it does have a USB port and a removeable SDHC card.

The new Panasonic HD cameras also do not use FireWire.

Re:okay I like apple but

[Anonymous Coward]

Fewer ports not less ports. Really. It does matter.

Some nouns are countable and some are bulk. The countable nouns must be preceded by fewer to indicate a reduction in the number of them. Less is used for the bulk nouns.

e.g. I would like less salt with my dinner today. After dinner will count fewer salt grains on the table cloth.

Re:okay I like apple but

[ceoyoyo]

Get a USB hub or a keyboard with extra USB ports on it.

It's nice to have two on the notebook so when you're traveling you can use a couple of USB devices (say, an external mouse and a stick). But when you're hooking up to an external keyboard? Might as well just have everything plugged into the hub on your desk. It would probably make for less plugging and unplugging too.

Losing the DVI on the MBP would be a pain, ditto with the Firewire.

Re:okay I like apple but

[ps60k]

Invest in a Bluetooth mouse/keyboard combo. Or, if you're cheap, pick up an inexpensive USB hub. Easy solution for your USB port scarcity problem.

I think the increased adoption of Bluetooth peripherals is reducing the demand for a shitload of USB ports. Two ports on a laptop sounds fair to me. Laptops are meant for portability. Lugging around a ton of USB peripherals defeats the purpose; likewise, anticipating this behavior by providing four or more ports is equally senseless.

External hard disks and thumb drives are totally understandable. They are portable, "part-time" peripherals, used on a temporary basis, and easily accommodated with two or three laptop USB ports. But mice and keyboards? For a laptop? I can understand a desktop having a few more ports to accommodate these "full-time" devices, but not laptops.

I can't hate, I also use an external mouse/kbd with my laptop when working at a desk, etc. But, I do so at the cost of portability. If you have the means to set up shop with a USB kbd/mouse, you also have the means to use a USB hub.

It's not the manufacturer's fault by failing to provide enough ports to plug in all your shit. You're wanting to use more devices than the manufacturer designed it to handle while still being considered "portable". If you're willing to sacrifice portability, go find some method of USB expansion on your own, or go get a proper desktop.

Re:okay I like apple but

[ILongForDarkness]

Not the case for me. I hate touch pads. My work supplied me with a high end keyboard and mouse both of which are USB. I also have an encrypted external drive. This is all work related stuff it is my office hardware that I also bring home. Fortunately at work I have a 20" Apple monitor that supplies a couple more ports so I plug the keyboard and external drive into that then connect the one cable to my laptop.

In general I live with not having a full sized keyboard at home and just bring the mouse and occasionally the external drive. But at work it is really tight because if anyone gives me something else that needs USB I'm out of luck. Yeah a hub would work, but Macs suck for connectivity, when they aren't using a custom connector, they have two few ports. I'm sorry but I can't really see how the existence of another peripheral really excuses Apple from at least having the connectivity of their competition.

Re:okay I like apple but

[ILongForDarkness]

Exactly, I have a Ergonomic Microsoft keyboard (leather palm rest goodness) and a Logitech MX revolution mouse. I'm a big guy 6'3"(191cm) 230 (106kg) it seems that most things made for laptops, and Apple hardware in general is just a bit too small for my hands. Hence all the pimped out peripherals I get at work.

Re:okay I like apple but

[ILongForDarkness]

Yeah and again that is the problem with Apple thinking. Buy Apple, buy apple pheripherals and we'll make up for the shortcomings of your system. There are better keyboards and mice out there and my work is kind enough to let me buy what I like the best. The only thing that the apple hardware offers me is more USB ports. I agree though the keyboard is a pretty good place to put your mouse if you have one it is a shame that more keyboards, especially in the highend, don't come with this feature.

Yawn.

[Stormwatch]

Apple used to do unique laptops. Now their stuff looks just like everyone else's (perhaps just a bit more refined). If they still offered the"clamshell" iBook, updated to the same specs as the current MacBook and same prices, I'd be more inclined to take the cutesy colorful one.

Re:Yawn.

[entrex]

You sir are possibly the only person in the world who misses the clamshell iBook.

Good riddance.

Re:Yawn.

[not-my-real-name]

The thing that I really liked about the clamshell iBook is the handle. You close it and there's a handy handle to carry it with. Granted, someone described it as looking like a "drag queen's purse", but it was a tough handle. Most notebooks you just grab and hope for the best.

Re:Yawn.

[Maserati]

"A Fisher-Price handbag for drag queens"

Get it right.

Steve can't just keep doing that as EFiX and Pstar

[Joe The Dragon]

Steve can't just keep doing that as EFiX and Psystar will pass apple up and if Psystar where to win a fee key points in court then apple will have to respond and come out with a real desktop mid-tower.

Also the mini is over year old with the same price how does that make people want to buy a new computer?

nvidia on board video / chipsets is a good step in putting better video in mac systems as $1200 or less systems have better video then the $1500 mac book black and the $2000 mac book pro has weak video next other $1500+ laptops.

Apple should make the mac book and mac book pro in to one line. $2000 to get a 15" screen and $2800 for 17" is way to high. Also they should have a 13" - 14" system with good video for people who want to have a mid to high mid-range low-high end video card but not a big screen.

Too thin for practical structural integrity.

[plasmacutter]

Having owned a macbook with a much thicker plastic case, and looking at this one, I can't help but comment on how the form factor to case thickness ratio is very similar.

The macbook continues to warp very easily to this day, causing the fan housing to do the same, and the blades of the fan to scrape the housing.

Apple is starting to value form OVER function rather than form AND function. I'm going to be waiting a good long time until apple starts introducing stiffening trusses. I'm pretty sure aluminum won't be as forgiving of that kind of structural distortion.

Re:Too thin for practical structural integrity.

[somethinghollow]

It's ok. The "iBrick" billet aluminum rumors were only half true. To put your fears to rest, it turns out it's made of adamantium rather than aluminum. At least, that is what my inside source tells me.

Re:Too thin for practical structural integrity.

[node 3]

I'm going to be waiting a good long time until apple starts introducing stiffening trusses. I'm pretty sure aluminum won't be as forgiving of that kind of structural distortion.

Go check out a MacBook Air. They are very rigid and non-bendy. Apple has solved any rigidity issues with their aluminum cases, and it looks like they are going to roll the new casing to all of their notebooks tomorrow.

The clue is the top part of the bottom case isn't a flat 'lid' that covers a 5-sided box, but is instead an upside-down 5-sided box, with the 'lid' attached to the bottom. And the way the 'lid' is attached is more rigid (at least, on the Air).

is it really so ..

[Anonymous Coward]

methinks it's pathethic to post on this case. is there anything that is so exciting (almost arousal) about it ?

regards
zetho

"starting to"?

[argent]

Apple is starting to value form OVER function

"starting to"?

Re:"starting to"?

[Anonymous Coward]

apple always value form over function, look at the iphone.. less functions over LG, Samsung competitor but every function is well implemented..

Macrumors.com

[93 Escort Wagon]

I thought I should mention MacRumors, a long-established site for Mac-related rumors and news, since it looks like Taco wasn't aware there are already sites that do this sort of thing.

Tags

[Wizard Drongo]

A little offtopic perhaps, but I just had to write a reply on how AWESOME tags are :)

The tag "whoopdefuckingdo" is most hilarious. I was actually laughing to the point of pain when I saw it.

Oh, and yeah, new macbook: nice case, greaat it's finally got a real 3D chip. Shame there's no firewire. Even if I could afford to upgrade my original macbook to it I wouldn't; I'm not buying new (slower) hard drive caddies and losing my ability to edit film. Teh suck Apple, Teh suck!

Rephrase that title?

[Captain Spam]

Perhaps the title of the summary could be rephrased such that it doesn't sound like there's a rumor that MacBook cases leak something?

Though that WOULD be more interesting than the story we actually GOT...

Case leaks?

[Jafafa Hots]

Man, I thought for a moment this was a story about another dangerous flaw being suppressed and denied by Apple. Case leaks. Some mysterious goo or battery acid comes pouring out of your macbook.

Re:Case leaks?

[ps60k]

Some mysterious goo...

Applesauce?

Get it must be because of MS's new ads

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah, I am a PC.

LOL. riiiiigggghhhhttttt.

Re:Steve can't just keep doing that as EFiX and Ps

[0100010001010011]

And when Pystar and EFiX win. Apple doesn't get as much revenue to continue to develop their OS. So they stop. Then what will Pystar and EFiX push?

Sales of mac os x will go up and apple will have t

[Joe The Dragon]

Sales of mac os x will go up and apple will have to come out with better priced hardware that getting updated faster and have a desktop mid-tower with desktop parts and a real video card.

starting at $600 - $700 and up they can keep a low end $500 or less mini for the people who want a small system.

$2300 for a sever / high end workstation is over the top for most people and the mini is too week. The Imacs use laptop parts and have poor screen choice. If there was more choice matte or glossy. As well as screen size not being tied to higher end cpus then the imac will be a better choice as you should be able to get a imac with a good cpu + video in a small screen and big screen with out the high end video card and cpu.

OMFG!!

[chord.wav]

OMFG!! Did ...Did you see THAT!?? I can't believe it! Ohh noooo! He couldn't! Damn, Steve nailed it again! Ohh nooo, it is..it is sooo G-O-R-G-E-O-U-S! The first *aluminium* MacBook...Brilliant! And did you see the keyholes?? OMG it has soooomany! Damn I want one! And the bigger trackpad?...Astonishing! I better ran off to camp in the waiting line and keep posting from there...

Re:OMFG!!

[Yvan256]

Dude you must've reached the waiting line by now, post something new! What's happening?!

WE NEED TO KNOW!!!!!

what is the size?

[fermion]

It is hard to tell the size from the pictures. Fewer ports might indicate another very small macbook pro. As many recall, the missing link is the laptop line is a small pro device. Not much more than 4 lbs, 1 inch thick should be possible with the new tech. The 15" pro is few inches to big a over a pound too heavy.

Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Is this article really worthy of wasting 'precious' slashdot space?

Airplanes and cars did this transition too

[ChrisA90278]

What's new here is not just another revision of an exxisting product. Apple has turned the physical structure of the notebook inside out. Older notebooks have an internal metal frame of some kind. Parts were screwed to the frame and then the case acted as a cover. What Apple has done is mde the cae out of very rigid aluminum. The parts are now screwed to the inside of the case and there is no internal frame. The case itself is the frame.

Cars and airplanes went through this kind of transition too. In the early days of cars and planes each had an internal frame but now the skin itself is the frame.

What we should expect is a stronger and lighter computer. Maybe better cooling too and easier to re-cycle later after it is no longer useful as a computer.

Please...

[ZarathustraDK]

...don't show stuff like that to people. Mac-products with a lot of holes in them will just make fanboys try to copulate with them.

Its not only the new case !!!

[learningtree]

The article title and summary could have been worded better.

In addition to the new case (which by any means can be considered a minor change), there is speculation that the new Macs will be using nVidia MCP79 chipsets.

Along with the comparatively better graphics performance, this will also add SLI support to the Macbooks.

well, well, well...

[Anonymous Coward]

linux runs just perfectly on mac books. i can haz install fest? pleaze!

Where's the usual spin?

[Lars T.]

New MacBook cases leak - Apple denies the problem!

Uh, what is the climate on your planet.

[Shivetya]

I don't think you get it.

Letting you in on a secret... /. is not the PC market, nor is Digg, nor are 90% of the other similar sites.

If anything what is in the current Best Buy ad has more to do with what they want than some site.

Really, are people this delusional and think that because they read it on the internet or it just "happens" to agree with their view that it must be that way?

Hello.

Yeah I am mocking your post but damn if people didn't rate it highly, what gives.

People buy Windows because it works. The majority will never have a problem with it. Yeah its cheap, as such there is your clue as to why nothing from Apple threatens HP or Dell.

Also, if they have a "few" programs that run on Windows why would they want to switch? You are totally overestimating the needs of the common user. Look, if they can surf the "internet", get pictures from their kids, play that game off the shelf their kid snatched, they are fine. The less thought into the process the better.

Your whole premise is based on "if Apple would only" and the truth is, they haven't, they won't, they don't have to, and most importantly they don't want to.

Re:Uh, what is the climate on your planet.

[LWATCDR]

Well I can tell you that the company I work for keeps getting request after request for a Mac Native version of our software. We are also getting many calls from people that are running our software under Bootcamp.
When I go to usergroup meetings and when I give seminars I am told time and time again that they would drop Windows if they could get our software in a Mac native version.
Yes people make their living using our software and that is keep this group of people on Windows.
Vista has been a disaster for our customers. The performance hit and problems some devices has been terrible. USB to serial adapters are just completely unreliable under Vista and the memory requirements are through the roof.

There is a large group of users that just hates Windows but it does what they need for a low price. But I have yet to see any Windows user except to be honest myself that has never had a problem with Windows.
I have admit that I have had almost no problems with XP on my personal systems. But I think the number of rent a geek services that run spyware removal is proof that I am in the minority.

So buy a Mac...

[reidconti]

None of the problems you see with Apple SW on Windows are present on Macs.

But Windows sucks whether or not you install any crappy Apple SW on it.

Re:So buy a Mac...

[not already in use]

None of the problems you see with Apple SW on Windows are present on Macs.

So if I buy Apple's overpriced MP3 player or phone I need to buy Apple's overpriced computer for it to work properly?

Exactly.

Re:So buy a Mac...

[onecheapgeek]

I'm going to comment because there is no -1 Pwned mod.

Information Leaks vs. Dripping Battery Fluid

[billstewart]

It's not the best of headlines - my interpretation of "case leaks" was "it's dripping battery fluid" or "RF leaking enough to interfere with nearby devices", etc. That would have been worth a Slashdot article.

But if the leak is just not-yet-announced marketing information, then it needs to be pretty interesting.

MacBook Pro ports

[AlpineR]

Huh, I thought that my 15" MacBook Pro (purchased 11/06) had three USB ports, but I just counted only two plus two never-used Firewire ports. The only thing I ever plug into USB are my camera and my iPod Shuffle. The mouse is Bluetooth and the printer is on the Airport. I'd rather have my next camera use Bluetooth than have my next laptop get an extra port.

Re:MacBook Pro ports

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Huh, I thought that my 15" MacBook Pro (purchased 11/06) had three USB ports, but I just counted only two plus two never-used Firewire ports.

My bad, I have a 17". Bigger laptop == more room for USB ports. Hehe.

Sorry, I shouldn't have chimed in.

And iPods before that

[Vandil X]

iPods used to be FireWire only until just after iTunes became available for Windows.

The mini looks bad as it is over 1 year old and co

[Joe The Dragon]

The mini looks bad as it is over 1 year old and cost more then the g4 mini did apple maybe able to get away have no mid-tower under $1000 but when you have to pay $2300 to get one when the older g4 and g5 ones started at $1200+ then it is bad. Apple does not need to be on par with dell at $600 but still a have $1000 to $2000 tower and update and / or price drop the $500 - $700 system over time. $800 to get a dvdwr and still only have 1gb of ram and intel gma 950 video is bad.

Less ports

[1053r]

This is just pure speculation, but maybe Apple is moving away from the traditional idea of computing and betting that "cloud" computing will be the next big thing in laptops. Back in 98 the iMac was the first computer without a floppy disk, and I know I wasn't alone when I looked at it and thought "What? They must be insane", and yet you'd be hard pressed to find a computer nowadays that has a floppy drive built in. Maybe they are continuing this trend, taking a chance that people will be moving away from using USB/Firewire and towards storing everything on a remote server (MobileMe, anyone?) using the new shiny 802.11 N. I like OS X, but I can't see myself buying a Macbook right now because you pay a rediculous premium to get it in black, it has no cardreader/expansion slot, and has a crappy intel graphics card. Hopefully this release will remedy the latter.

The Apple Product Cycle

[denzacar]

In my humble opinion, there should be a law that would make linking of The Apple Product Cycle with every single mac/slashvertisement mandatory.

and put all that stuff on the slow and high cpu us

[Joe The Dragon]

and put all that stuff on the slow and high cpu uses bus.

Laptops as Desktops

[Vandil X]

when using any laptop as a desktop, the first thing you should get is a powered USB hub to plug everything into that stays at your desk (keyboard, mouse, ext. hdds, tablets, etc.) and then plug in the ONE upstream cable from the hub to your laptop. When the occasional thumbdrive need hits you always have the second port free.

Premium Brands

[djdavetrouble]

I really think Apple is intentionally keeping their market share low by catering to people with money.

The second that I see some bum with a MacBook Pro, I am moving to a more premium brand !

Apple has found the way

[Anonymous Coward]

to make the MacBook case leak? Finally, British car manfacturers can diversify into the notebook computer business!

Re:Apple has found the way

[Anonymous Coward]

that's only if it leaks OIL.

Gracious, I thought my MacBook was leaking...

[Douglas Goodall]

Actually my only problem is the dumb design of the thin little piece of plastic over the CD slot that break from your wrist resting on it when you use the mousepad. Not a great design. Any ideas how to fix it? Other than superglue?

Re:Steve can't just keep doing that as EFiX and Ps

[niittyniemi]

a mid to high mid-range low-high end video card

Don't you mean a high, mid low end mid low high end video card?

Just wanted to clear things up...

So tired of these terrible leaks.

[Anonymous Coward]

These cases don't even tell you anything about the product that Apple is trying to develop. If you are going to release something like this.... MAKE IT GOOD! Like an illustration of what the finished product will look like.