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Nvidia Problems Hit HP Desktops
Barence writes "HP has revealed faults with 38 different models in its slimline PC range, sparking speculation that Nvidia's faulty GPU problems have spread beyond laptops. HP's official statement says the problems are 'attributable to the computer's motherboard" and that affected machines 'may not boot or may not display video' — the same kind of terminology used to describe the previous faults with laptop GPUs. Both HP and Nvidia have declined to comment. But in a filing to the US Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC) earlier this year, Nvidia admitted 'there can be no assurance that we will not discover defects in other MCP or GPU products.'" Note: the linked story (updated since this submission) says that Yes, the problems are now confirmed to be rooted in the Nvidia GPUs.
I'm sure it is confined only to HP desktops, no desktops from other manufacturers are affected. It was true last time, why not now? *snicker*
...would have thought.
brbut still: information on this fuckup is hard to find, non-concrete statements everywhere. why not have a tool that reads the s/n of the GPU, checks it and warns if your gpu is faulty? i'm owning a dell notebook which, according to dell, is not affected. but nevertheless dell put a bios-update online for my modell which obviously changed something concerning ventilation. being vague is not always the way to go.
I have an HP laptop and my video card died 5 days before my warranty ran out.
Then it happened again a year later.
Life is too short and too important to { take seriously | use windows }.
For "covering up" the faulty GPUs? Hey, if they signed contracts with the OEMs on these chips leaving the announcements to them, then that's the brakes -- they can't talk about it. What would you expect them to do?
My blog
This is a great chance for ATI to get some market-share. If you don't know what nVidia cards are affected, are you going to chance it? I know I wouldn't. If ATI doesn't take advantage of this with price drops or something, their marketing dept. should be taken out back and finished off of-mice-and-men style...
-SaNo
has Nvidia fixed their problems for their current products? i bought a dell laptop with intel graphics specifically because of these problems (too late to change that, obviously). my son wants/needs a new graphics card for his desktop; i strongly recommended against Nvidia but i wonder if they'll have it fixed by Christmas when i plan on getting a new card for him; hopefully it'll be an historical footnote long before then but i haven't seen anything indicating they've fixed their problems and their products are now safe to buy. any articles/links that can verify one way or the other?
I'll bet Apple are glad that nVidia are around so people still have something to complain about when they unveil their new machines. Especially the Macbook Pro - now it'll have two failure-prone components, built right in. ;)
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
HP has had another recent service enhancement officially starting around November 2007.
The primary symptoms were no video / no boot issues and lost wireless connectivity on specific notebook models. The effected models expanded to several other models by early/mid 2008.
The issue was also determined to be a motherboard issue showing primarily with AMD systems with NVidia cards.
HP's official limited service enhancement for this issue: Here
...The RoHS demonization of lead had the best of intentions and all, but the results are in, and some things just kinda crap out (including, big, expensive and very dangerous things) without it. Thanks EU, but we're gonna have to wrap this avoid-lead-at-all-cost show up right about now...
but you MUST register the video card or mobo or prostitute with them within 2 weeks of purchase otherwise you have the standard warranty coverage. I have a G92 8800GTS/512, and a backup G80 8800GTS/320 which was my warranty replacement for a 7900GT which had a prolonged illness, then a slow death, after two years of use. If the G92 fails, I get whatever is comparable NOW, which would probably be . . . I don't like any of the current crop of GPUs because they use up too many watts for what I want . . . I'd get whatever I got but switch to ATI/AMD. IF the G92 goes tits up. I'd still be using the 7900GT if it was still working. My TOTAL system with the G92 uses 160W at idle (comprising an AMD X2 2.5GHz c.2005, secondary PCI video, X-Fi PCI, 2GB DDR, 4 HDs,,,,), almost the same as it was with the 7900GT. The current crop of GPUs ALONE would use that much power.
I've seen so many notebooks (mostly HP dv6000 and dv9000 series) being hit with this lately that it's unbelievable. And yes, HP did release an extended service offer for a few specific models; it tacks one year to the end of your current warranty. Even if you have an HP notebook that is one of the affected models, they won't touch it unless it fails within that 24-month period. Month 25? Sorry, time to shop for a new one.
Well, in my state there is an implied warranty law that applies here: Consumer Law Guide. Check it out if you live in Maine and you need it, or look into similar laws in your own state/province/territory/etc. All of my customers who are hit with this issue get a copy of the implied warranty section printed when they go.
It's hardly affected it at all.
ATI Linux drivers are still total crap compared to NVidia's.
I would rather have a funded, supported binary blob that works over a bunch of unsupported unfunded drivers and open specifications any day.
Try to use any modern ATI card in an Linux-based HTPC that has to support HD video, and see how far you get.
I wouldn't call the Xbox 360 GPU failures (which don't seem to have affected any other ATi products) or the nVidia notebook GPU failures (which don't seem to have affected any other nVidia products) "big, expensive, and very dangerous things". Certainly the very specific nature of the problems suggests it has nothing to do with the switch to lead-free processes themselves (which nVidia and ATi themselves are using in other products without issue). I'd welcome other examples of course, as there could be low-profile problems which I've overlooked and show this to be a more general issue. Of course there are many new theoretical failure modes introduced by lead-free components and soldering, I'm just pointing out that from where I stand it's not yet an issue in the real world.
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
(On a related note, "big expensive and very dangerous things" are excepted from the eagle eye of RoHS. You can produce gear carved from giant blocks of lead if it's for medical use.)
No kidding!!! What do you say at this point?
...The RoHS demonization of lead had the best of intentions and all, but the results are in, and some things just kinda crap out (including, big, expensive and very dangerous things) without it. Thanks EU, but we're gonna have to wrap this avoid-lead-at-all-cost show up right about now...
the problem with nvidia cards is that they use Pb solder while ATI uses Sn.
Not following RoHS made this happen, not the other way around.
I remember this. I had this problem too. It wasn't necessarily the GPU, because my GPU is running great, hitting great benchmarks (8400 GS). It's actually a problem with the mobo. First, some background. The computer has HDMI, DVI, and S-Video output. When I first got the system, it had big problems switching between different outputs when I shutoff the system. Then it came to a point where gfx just didn't work on boot. I called the HP service guy (very bad idea). He wanted me to send in my system (wtf no). I just eventually found a manual for the mobo and reset cmos. Solved the problem.
Time to turncoat from Green to Red!
My 9600GT is running still, but for how long?
I used to pro-NV, but now I think I'll return to ATI. Never had an ATI card mysteriously stop working. Had 2 older NVIDIA cards stop though, a Ti200 and a 6800LE. Both had scrambled output but seemed to boot. I even saw a similar thing last year on a Latitude laptop I was working on at work that had a Geforce MX, but this thing had totally erratic behavior.
Makes you wonder how far back the problem goes or if there are other problems that may have arisen that haven't been discovered.
Has anyone had these kinds of problems with ATI?
Look, I know this is offtopic and all, but the expression is "That's the BREAKS". NOT BRAKES!
Brake(s)
1. a device for slowing or stopping a vehicle or other moving mechanism by the absorption or transfer of the energy of momentum, usually by means of friction.
2. brakes, the drums, shoes, tubes, levers, etc., making up such a device on a vehicle.
Break(s)
1. Informal.
a. an opportunity or stroke of fortune, esp. a lucky one: That's a lucky break!
b. a chance to improve one's lot, esp. one unlooked for or undeserved: Thanks for giving me this break.
2. the breaks, Informal. the way things happen; fate: Sorry to hear about your bad luck, but I guess those are the breaks.
Sorry to go offtopic, but I see that misuse is so many otherwise intelligent arguments. The worst part about it is that it utterly ruins the argument because it makes the person writing the argument appear ignorant.
So please, get the expression right.
Official Heretic from the "Church of Global Warming". Proven right thanks to whistle blowers. AGW = Flat Earth Theory
I am a recall coordinator. My job is to apply the formula. A new laptop built by my company overheats and the video card dies. Now, should we initiate a recall? Take the number of laptops in the field, A. Multiply it by the probable rate of failure, B. Multiply the result by the average out-of-court settlement, C. A x B x C equals X. If X is less than the cost of a recall, we don't do one.
"Los Angeles (CA) â" A tiny material issue in Nvidiaâ(TM)s GPUs has cost Nvidia $200 million so far: The problem boils down to the solder bump material, in Nvidiaâ(TM)s case high-lead that was used in all of the firmâ(TM)s GPUs that were produced until late July , and we still do not know how serious the issue really is. According to our sources, Nvidia has switched to eutectic solder bumps in recent weeks and there is now a new, apparently independent research report, that claims that eutectic solder bumps, which are used for example by AMDâ(TM)s ATI unit, may live much longer than high-lead versions. Of course, switching to eutectic isnâ(TM)t the entire solution, as the material has a much lower melting point than high-lead."
http://www.tgdaily.com/content/view/39506/135/
Shai Schticks:"You don't make peace with friends, you make peace with enemies"
I'm surprised I haven't had any issues yet. I'm running an EVGA 780i Nvidia chipset motherboard with x2 8800GT. I only started having heat issues recently because the back fan on my case went out.
Actually, thinking about it I think the Akimbo coolers on my video cards are what are saving me. Nothing like doubling the width of your video card for a GPU cooler to save you from heat damage I guess.
Well this NVIDIA issue has been out for a while and its a major disappointment especially since I bought a 9600gt like 2 months ago which will suffer the same fate. However, this issue is agravated by temperature changes in the graphics card. So this is agravated in laptops which are cycled on and off frequently. Seeing as I leave my desktop on most of the time and that I use the graphics card for long sessions but also do not have heavy, frequent loads I expect this to be a non-issue with my setup. I got the card to do CUDA while waiting for the next generation of NVIDIA cards to come out.
So yeah, this should not be a huge issue if you are not temperature cycling the card like mad. Its much more important on a laptop for that reason.
My father had the 9600gt fail in his 2 month old HP slimline tower. Hmm....
The GPU's are overheating. Just like with the Xbox 360's, as time goes on, the lead-free solder joints break due to mechanical stress caused by to expansion/contraction cycles that weaken the joints; this is initiated by heating/cooling cycles.
How can you tell? Pop open the bottom of any DV8000 or DV9000 series laptop; you'll notice the pink or black stuff around the GPU. Microsoft did the same thing; they epoxied the chip on. The cooling is insufficient; its the reason why they have issued BIOS updates. BTW, best way to do one; put the laptop up on its side with the lid open at a 90 degree angle. It gives the air intake and output ports 100% flow.
The slim-line PC's have a similar problem. There are 2 theories to cooling a PC case; the open method and the wind tunnel method. The Slim-lines use the open method; air is drawn onto devices that need it. The GPU gets no airflow cooling and on some models, got a dinky little heatsink. I've fixed these by drilling holes into the side of the detachable plate and installing a 90MM fan 40CFM with a Sata-power to Molex attachment, blowing cool air directly onto the default heatsink. $40 of parts, the thing works like its new.
HP updated their site, as have several manufacturers, with information pertaining to the problem but nobody is going to say what is going on. Mainly, because resoldering chips onto boards is expensive. Out of all the vendors I have done business with, HP has the best warranty service. They've fixed several laptops for me out of warranty under this program, so they're being responsable.
More than likely, Nvidia did stringent tests on their GPU's (as always) and handed HP a spec sheet that miscommunicated what the chip can take, and HP designed out of tolerance without knowing it. Updating the BIOS fixes the problem pretty solidly, as does pulling the fans and upgrading them (I've done upgrades to gaming laptops to do that, makes em' work like a charm).
I have used ATI products under Linux since their Mach64 chipsets, and I have never had problems installing ATI drivers or getting 2D and 3D acceleration to work under X.
ATI drivers weren't as easy to install as nVidia's, but they worked just fine.
wifi card disappears from the hardware list, only mobo replacement can bring it back.
unfortunately it happens about 12-14 months into the life of the laptop, when normal warranty is expired.
there are hundreds of posts on the internet related to this, and new ones are added each day.
and yet HP fails to admit that there is a systemic problem that they are responsible for.
see my particular account here:
http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/showthread.php?t=19208
...sie sind nicht grün
I had a no-display problem during configuration, with a new machine using an nVidia board and was lucky to have a second identical nVidia board to test with. The problem was with the mobo. Replacing the motherboard repaired the machine and it has not had a hint of failure since then.
Unless anyone specifically knows it to be otherwise, it's pretty safe to assume that these GPUs are the same ones as used in laptops. "Slimline" computers generally use laptop graphics and other components.
In other words, this isn't actually news, basically.
So Nvidia has lied about the extent of the problem and Charlie Demerjian over at The Inquirer has been right about the full extent of this all along. By now none of this should be coming as a surprise to anybody actually paying attention.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
CUDA stresses your card as much as throwing it into full 3D rendering, so you chip is still going to run hot and cold as you switch between idle and CUDA processing. You may not be as safe as you think you are.
"It's the height of ridiculousness to say for those 9 lines you get hundreds of millions."
According to the Inquirer, the problem bump material was high lead, and the problem is being fixed by replacing the material with eutectic (i.e, mix of lead and tin) solder.
See for example this
So I don't think RoHS can really be at fault here.
The failing solderbumps were high-lead solder. The solution was to switch to a eutectic solder, which has less lead. So why would RoHS anti-lead policies be to blame?
I picked up a cheap "debranded" HP desktop at geeks.com a few weeks back. Just noticed today that it has an integrated GeForce 6500LE.
A big reason is the history of "hardware garbage" being sold here as latest. Certainly these defective cards will be sent to my country as if they were perfect and at twice the price you usually pay on EUA.
Religion: The greatest weapon of mass destruction of all time
but as long as you are not switching rapidly this shouldnt hurt the lifetime of the card as much. The main issue is the powerup/down of laptops and desktops. If they are left on for the most part they should be alright.
I think it barely had the best intentions.
I hear that inclusion of lead was because of ONE scientific study that hinted alloys of lead MAY leach into ground water and that paper has since been withdrawn.
For those of you not in the industry, solder used to be 60/40 tin/lead. It melted at 188oC and was processed at 225oC for reflow (Suface mount oven) and 245oC for wave soldering (through hole parts).
Thanks to the EU, lead was banned so we had to move to things like SAC305 (96.5% tin/3% silver/0.5% copper). SAC and similar alloys melt at around 220oC and thus need significantly hotter process temperatures. This tended to strip wavesolder machine iron based solder baths, and require more zones in reflow ovens. So there goes a few billion replacing machines.
Hi tin solders also have more brittle solder joints (likely the cause of Nvidias problems) because pure tin in less ductile and forms different intermetallics. Hi tin solder can also tin whisker causing short circuits to adjacent pins.
It also created logistics nightmares because you now had storerooms with ROHS compliant & non compliant parts that look identical. Technicians when reworking now have to use lead or lead free solder depending on what they rework (and the solder looks identical except the lead free solder is much harder to use)
So in summary:-
ROHS banning of lead
- Based on one dubious scientific paper about possible lead leaching into groundwater
- Cost billions for the industry to implement
- Increases energy use becuase of hotter process temperatures
- Copper in solder baths can strip solder out of OSP based PCB's
- Makes it harder to make stuff and rework stuff because of narrow process windows (more waste from rejects)
- Makes solder joints more brittle. (big problem for micro BGA parts used on mobile phones and high end chips like FPGAs & graphics)
- Can grow tin whiskers, and the industry is only just beginning to understand why
Great move EU!
46137
This is the famous example we used in our Engineering ethics lecture:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Pinto
Basically, they was a flawed car design. But the cost of settling court case for car burning people is less than the recall cost, so they didn't do a recall.
There's no telling if the laptop graphics chip failures are the extent of the problem, or only the tip of the iceberg. We have a few folks here with failed desktop graphics -- no idea if it's this or another problem. If it's really a general RoHS problem, system chips will be subject to the same dynamics.
At least one line of thinking is that the failure is hastened by thermal stress, which is far more severe on a laptop than a desktop -- if so, the laptops would fail first. The BIOS hack, to speed up the fans, seem to suggest they believe this... whether or not the real intent is just to push the failures out beyond the warrenty, or if they really think running cooler will avoid some failures (the one guarantee -- your battery life is lessened).
-Dave Haynie