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Why RAID 5 Stops Working In 2009
Lally Singh recommends a ZDNet piece predicting the imminent demise of RAID 5, noting that increasing storage and non-decreasing probability of disk failure will collide in a year or so. This reader adds, "Apparently, RAID 6 isn't far behind. I'll keep the ZFS plug short. Go ZFS. There, that was it." "Disk drive capacities double every 18-24 months. We have 1 TB drives now, and in 2009 we'll have 2 TB drives. With a 7-drive RAID 5 disk failure, you'll have 6 remaining 2 TB drives. As the RAID controller is busily reading through those 6 disks to reconstruct the data from the failed drive, it is almost certain it will see an [unrecoverable read error]. So the read fails ... The message 'we can't read this RAID volume' travels up the chain of command until an error message is presented on the screen. 12 TB of your carefully protected — you thought! — data is gone. Oh, you didn't back it up to tape? Bummer!"
12 TB of your carefully protected â" you thought! â" data is gone. Oh, you didn't back it up to tape? Bummer!
If it wasn't backed up to an offsite location, then it wasn't carefully protected.
There are shills on slashdot. Apparently, I'm one of them.
I mean, WTF? Many people regard RAID as something magical that will keep their data no matter what happens. Well ... it's not.
Furthermore, for many enterprise applications disk size is not the main concern, but rather I/O throughput and reliability. Few need 7 disks of 2 TB in RAID5.
The Raven
The problem with Raid 5 is that the more drives you have the higher probability you have that more than one drive dies. That's why you have multiple raid 5 arrays of 4 disks maximum instead of one array of 7 disks.
If you have one RAID5 box, just build another one that replicates it. Use that for your "hot backup". Then back that up to tape, if you must.
Storage is so cheap these days (especially if you don't need super-fast speeds and can use regular SATA drives), that you might as well just go crazy with mirroring/replicating all your drives all over the place for fault-tolerance and disaster-recovery.
This is trivially testable. Any slashdotters have experience rebuilding 7TB RAID 5 arrays?
You'd think, if this were really an issue, we'd be hearing stories from the front lines of this happening with increasing frequency. Instead we have a blog post based entirely on theory, without a single real-world example for corroboration.
What's more, who even uses RAID 5 anymore? I thought it was all RAID 10 and whatnot these days.
I can see a lot of people getting into a tizzy over this. The RAID 5 this guy is talking about is controlled by one STUPID controller.
There are a lot of methods, and patented technology that prevent just the situation he is talking about. Here is just one example:
RAID is not perfect, not by any stretch, but if you use it properly it will serve it's purpose quite nicely. If your data is that critical, having it on a single raid is ill advised anyways. If you are talking about databases, then RAID 10 is more preferable and replicating the databases across multiple sites, even more so.
The real issue is one that anyone who has ever had to recover a multi-drive array can tell you instantly: if one drive fails, and the other drive was bought at the same time, and has had a nearly identical usage pattern, the odds of the other drive failing are well above average.
I once had a single drive fail in a 24 disk array. The disks were arranged, RAID 5, in groups of 3, glued together by Veritas (from back before it got bought by crappy symantec). By the time the smoke cleared we had replaced 19 out of 24 drives. They had all been bought at the same time, and as they thrashed rebuilding their failed buddies, they started dying themselves. The remaining 5 drives we replaced anyway, just because.
That's a worst case, but multiple failures are far from uncommon, and very few people correctly cycle in new drives periodically to reduce the chance of a mass failure.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
What is this article about?
They say that since there is more data, you're more likely to encounter problems during a rebuild.
The issue isn't with RAID, it's with the file system. Use larger blocks/sectors.
Losing all of your data requires you to have a shitty RAID controller. A decent one will reconstruct what it can.
The odds of you encountering a physical issue increases as capacity increases, and decreases as reliability increases. In theory, the 1 TB and up drives are pretty reliable. Anything worth protecting should be on server-grade hard drives anyway.
The likelihood of a physical problem popping up during your rebuild is no higher with new drives than it was with old drives. I haven't noticed my larger drives failing at higher rates than my older, smaller drives. I haven't heard of them failing at higher rates.
Remember, folks, RAID is a redundant array of inexpensive disks. The purpose of RAID is to be fault-tolerant, in the sense that a few failures don't put you out of production. You also get the nice bonus of being able to lump a bunch of drives together to get a larger total capacity.
RAID is not a backup solution.
RAID 5 and RAID 6, specifically, are still viable solutions for most setups. If you want more reliability, go with RAID 1+0, RAID 5+0, whatever.
Choosing the right RAID level has always depended on your needs, setup, budget, and priorities.
Smells like FUD.
How many times does this have to be said.
RAID is not a backup. RAID is designed to protect against hardware failures. It can also increase your I/O speed, which is more important in some cases. Backups are different.
Depending on what you are doing, you may or may need a RAID, but you definitely need backups.
RAID 5, as well as RAID 6 is nothing more at an attempt to add some amount of redundancy without sacrificing too much space. Go RAID 1 instead with the same number of disks.
As far as I'm concerned, RAID 5 really has no redeeming features (it's slow, not particularly safe, but lulls people into a false sense of security).
From a data integrity perspective, though, RAID6 is a better solution than RAID1.
Given arrays of equal sizes, with RAID6 your data can survive the loss of *any* two disks; with RAID1, if you lose two disks which happen to be a mirrored pair, then you're hosed.
But, as you point out, RAIDn doesn't really qualify as "carefully protected"
Not everything that can be measured matters; Not everything that matters can be measured.
Scrub once a week, or once every two weeks.
RAID6 isn't about losing any two disks, it's about having two parity stripes. It's about being able to survive sector errors without any worry.
It's about losing ONE drive and still have enough parity to replace it without any errors.
RAID6 on 5 drives is retarded, tho, because it leaves you absurdly close to RAID1 in kept space. RAID6 is for when you have 8-10 drives. At that point you barely notice the (N - 2) effect and you have a fast (provided your processor can handle it all) chunk of throughput along with an incredibly reliable system. Well, N-3 with a hotswap.
Personally, I think I'd go RAID-Z2 via ZFS if only because it's a little bit sturdier a filesystem to begin with.
... very few people correctly cycle in new drives periodically to reduce the chance of a mass failure.
That is also because very few people buy a Raid setup piecemeal. Most end up buying a solution, fully populated. The idea of swapping out some drives as you go, or growing your RAID over time doesn't always look good, either to the PHBs who usually run the budget, or to the vendor. We had a vendor trying to sell us a iSCSI SAN device tell us that varying the drive lots and dates increased the chances of failure. Needless to say we went elsewhere.
When we bought the RAID array for our Exchange box, this is going back a few years, everybody looked at my like an idiot because I asked for drives with different lot numbers. It was the best I could do as buying over time was not an option. HP was actually pretty cool about this request and out of 8 disks, no 3 have the same lot number or manufacture date.
Of course we are also running RAID on that machine for non-backup and do a nightly replication, so your mileage may vary.
"To Do Is To Be" - Socrates, "To Be Is To Do" - Sartre, "Do Be Do Be Do" - Sinatra
Wow, how incite-ful. Doesn't matter what the discussion is, some geek is bound to weigh in with all the shortcomings of any idea.
Newsflash: there is no perfect backup! No method is foolproof, especially when it's bound to be boring as hell, and you've got an inevitable human factor. You get lazy moving the tapes offsite, you put off fixing a dead drive because there are 4 others, you wipe your main partition upgrading your distro and forget that your CRON rsync script uses the handy --delete flag, and BOOM wipes out your backup.
Shit happens. Pointing out what we all already know doesn't do anything helpful.
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
RAID doesn't protect against your worst enemy
rm -r *
nor is it supposed to. not being a moron seems to have protected me from "my worst enemy" just fine. RAID has protected me from random disk failures. seems to be working as designed
TIAEAE!
My observed error rate with about 4TB of storage is much, much lower. I did run a full surface scan every 15 days for two years and did not have a single read error in about two years. (The hardware has since been decomissioned and replace dby 5 RAID6 Arrays with 4TB each.)
So, I did read roughly 100 times 4TB. That is 400TB = 3.2 * 10^15 bits with 0 errors. That does not take into account normal read from the disks, which should be substantially more.
Most ACs are not even worth the keystrokes to insult them. Be generically insulted by this and ignored otherwise.
Seriously - what's the problem with RAID 5? It's not a FALSE sense of security: It actually DOES prevent data loss or down time on a single disk failure. If you're a moron, you're creating 14 disk arrays. If you're smart, you keep it to 7 disks at the very most.
RAID 5 is great. It's fast, unless you have a shit controller without enough cache. It's going to prevent down time on a single disk failure (which is overwhelmingly the most common type of failure) and it doesn't cost you too much capacity.
Usually I'm more concerned with a fire or flood than a double-disk failure.
RAID 6 is good, but you get the same (actually worse) performance hit over RAID 5. More parity calculations. You can lose any two disks, which is nice, and if you can spare the space, go for it!
I don't see RAID 6 as being all that much more of a big deal over RAID 5 and actually it shouldn't really have it's own number since it's exactly the same technology and parity system as 5. It should be RAID 5.1 or something. Or maybe RAID5+1. The only reason it's become more available now is because controllers have gotten fast enough to deal with the additional parity.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
You get your first RAID controller from a trusted friend. "Here" he says "try this" and hands you a Mylex board. It has a 64 bit bus and 3 SCSI LVD connectors. Oooh. That looks fast. So you start ebaying drives, cables, adapters, more controllers, the inevitable megawatt power supply and you mess around with raid 1, raid 0 raid 1+0 and raid 5. Suddenly every system falls prey to RAIDMANIA; eventually for yourself you build a system with 3 controllers, with 3 busses each and a drive on each one of 9 busses. With a controller for swap, one for data and one for the system will Windows now be fast? Yeah, sorta. Those drives sure are quiet - from a click-click busy noise perspective, NOT from a "sounds liks a jet airplane when running" perspective. Heat is an issue, too.
http://rs79.vrx.net/works/photoblog/2005/Sep/15/DSCF0007s.jpg
But oh my are the failure modes spectacular.
I just use a laptop now and make several sets of backup DVDs or just copy to spare drives. I love RAID to death. But it's really only marginally worth the effort in the real world. But if you need fast, OMG.
Need Mercedes parts ?
Prioritize your data. I cannot believe that a home user has 12TB of important stuff. Back up your critical records both on site and off [1]. Back up the important stuff on site with whatever is convenient. Let the rest go hang.
[1] Use DVDs in the unlikely event you have that much critical data. Few home users will have a critical need for that stuff beyond the life of the media. Any that do can copy it over every five years, and take the opportunity to delete the obsolete stuff.
Warning: this article may contain humor, sarcasm, parody, and perhaps even irony. Read at your own risk.
(though it's been running since '04 without any problems, and my HD health monitors show it in good shape)
Oh man.... you didn't just say that out loud did you???
That sinking feeling deep in your gut when you KNOW you screwed up bad summed up with: {head desk} {head desk}
My data backup scheme is to steganographically embed my entire filesystem into nude pictures of Sarah Palin, and then upload them to usenet.
You see? You see? Your stupid minds! Stupid! Stupid!
This is why you scrub your RAID arrays once a week. If you're using software RAID on Linux, for example:
echo check > /sys/block/md0/md/sync_action
The above will scrub array md0 and initiate sector reallocation if needed. You do this while you have redundancy so the bad data can be recovered. Over time, weak sectors get reallocated from the spare bands, and when you do have a failure the probability of a secondary failure is very low over the interval needed for drive replacement.
Most non-crap hardware controllers also provide this function. Read the documentation.
Can You Say Linux? I Knew That You Could.
I used to use the old punch card system to backup my data. Sure it takes a while but it was totally worth it... Until one day while attempted to move the many boxes fully of carefully sorted cards I fell down the steps and the cards went everywhere. I learned from that mistake and started writing all everything down on paper... Lot's o' 1's and 0's, my hand hurt.. A lot. But there was a fire at my off site :( sot I had to resort to the ultimate old school back up. A chisel and a rock... a really really big rock.
Eating the brains of your enemies does not make you smarter. But it's still fun.
That's why I chisel all my data (ones and zeros) onto stone tablets. In a few years the pile of stones will be taller than Everest. :)
Redundancy... You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.
RAID 0, psudo-ironically, is not redundant at all. RAID 1, often called mirroring, are the arrays that are redundant.
And in a thousand years some bearded guy will discover couple of those stones, come down the mountain and will base a religion around it. These things are cyclical.
And look what happened? Netcraft is already half way to confirming the demise of alt.binaries!
Bio questions? Ask me to start a Q&A journal. Computer analogies available for most topics!
RAID 5 will still be orders of magnitude more reliable than just having a single disk.
No sig today...
RAID???!!! Aaaaaaah! (Drive dies.)
Wow. I love your FUD. If you're going to lie, at least make it seem truthful.
Lacking in file system utilities (yes, fsck IS necessary even on healthy filesystems, especially on desktops and portables)
Why no fsck? And if you really feel the need to do something:
License-incompatible with anything worth running it on, other than Solaris itself... which is NOT worth running (see #1 above)
What you mean to say is "Some Operating Systems whose merits can be debated are license incompatible with the license of ZFS." FreeBSD can implement ZFS. Why can't Linux? Because of its license, not that of ZFS.
"Nature doesn't care how smart you are. You can still be wrong." - Richard Feynman
Lets hope he discovers some porn this time...
ad logicam Claiming a proposition is false because it was presented as the conclusion of a fallacious argument.
That doesn't work for me. Try
I have to say, the ZFS folks have convinced me. There are simply too many places where bit rot can creep in these days even when the drive itself is perfect. The fact that the drive is not perfect just puts a big exclamation point on the issue. Add other problems into the fray, such as phantom writes (which have also been demonstrated to occur), and it gets very scary very quickly.
I don't agree with ZFS's race-to-root block updating scheme for filesystem integrity but I do agree with the necessity of not completely trusting the block storage subsystem and of building checks into the filesystem data structures themselves.
Even more specifically, if one is managing very large amounts of data one needs a way to validate that the filesystem contains what it is supposed to contain. It simply isn't possible to do that with storage-system logic. The filesystem itself must contain sufficient information to make validation possible. The filesystem itself must contain CRCs and hierarchical validation mechanisms to have a proper end-to-end check. I plan on making some adjustments to HAMMER to fix some holes in validation checking that I missed in the first round.
-Matt
You leave RMS out of this!
Well, Windows does. Taking a snapshot of NTFS, even on a heavily used 1TB+ file server, takes only a few seconds, and under normal operation the file system is still fast.
NTFS is actually a pretty good file system. It's probably because it was originally designed by IBM.
- It's not the Macs I hate. It's Digg users. -
"This time?"
Ah, I see you've never read "Song of Songs"
A Black Swan is an event that is highly improbably, but statistically probable.
Yes, it is possible for a drive in a RAID 5 array to become absolutely inoperable, and for one of the other drives to have a read failure at the same time. This is highly unlikely though, and is not the Black Swan. The math use to calculate the likelihood of these two events occurring at the same time is faulty. The MTBF metric for hard drives is measured in 'soft failures'; this is very different from a 'hard failure'.
The difference between the two types of failures is that a soft failure, while a serious error, is something that the controlling operating system can work around if it detects it. It is extremely unlikely that a hard drive will exhibit a hard failure without having several soft failures first. It is even more unlikely that two drives in the same array will exhibit a hard failure within the length of time it takes to rebuild the array. In my experience, it is more likely that the software controlling the array will run into a bug rebuilding the array. I've seen this with several consumer-grade RAID controllers.
The true Black Swan is when a disk in the array catches fire, or does something equally as destructive to the entire array.
To echo other people's points, RAID increases availability, but only an off-site backup solves the data retention problem.
No method is foolproof, especially when it's bound to be boring as hell, and you've got an inevitable human factor. You get lazy moving the tapes offsite, you put off fixing a dead drive because there are 4 others, you wipe your main partition upgrading your distro and forget that your CRON rsync script uses the handy --delete flag, and BOOM wipes out your backup.
Jesus Christ, you must be one unlucky soul. Do you live your entire life in a worst-case scenario?
The system that I use for data storage is as follows:
This system may not be foolproof (what is?), but it is pretty frickin' safe, and costs me roughly $3 or $4 per month. Not too shabby for what I would consider to be a fairly robust backup system for a home user.
I suppose the biggest challenge is deciding what goes into rsnapshot. If my RAID array suffered a massive failure, I would definitely lose data. But this is mostly video content, and really, if I lose my mythtv shows, it is not exactly as catastrophic as if I lost, say, my quickbooks data.
There are a lot of things that keep me awake at night, but loss of important data is not one of them.
They don't grade fathers, but if your daughter's a stripper, you fucked up. --Chris Rock
That doesn't work for me. Try
hell, if you want to lose data, you've gotta at LEAST use dd. rm is just removing file handles, all your data is fine, you just cant access it. run
(or whatever disk you want to lose) and then see how many data recovery places will turn you away. the level of data recovery available to the public is pretty crappy, there's a guy offering a reasonably big prize to any data recovery company (or anyone at all i guess) who can recover data from a disk he zero'd with dd and hasnt had any takers yet. i wish i could find the link
#%^@%!#$!!!! The second one works!!