Miyamoto Scrutinizes Mario, Zelda, Hails Portal

eldavojohn writes "Nintendo icon Shigeru Miyamoto stated in an interview that 'What I've been saying to our development teams recently is that The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess was not a bad game, by any means. But, still, it felt like there was something missing. And while, personally, I feel like Super Mario Galaxy was able to do some things that were very unique, at the same time, from another perspective, certain elements of it do feel somewhat conservative. This is something I've been talking to both of those teams about ... hopefully [the next Mario and Zelda] will feel newer and fresher than their most recent versions.' MTV Multiplayer also commented on Portal's mechanics and gameplay, to which Miyamoto responded, 'I think Portal was an amazing game, too.' GameSetWatch has a related article criticizing Nintendo for relying on the Wii's input devices to develop game franchises rather than improving actual gameplay."

Comments

Un peu de poids.

[Sulix]

Miyamoto is someone who has a lot of weight behind what he says. You can bet that Valve are grinning like idiots and that the teams working on the next Zelda and Mario are breaking a sweat.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[enderjsv]

Eh. I don't know. I'm sure Valve appreciates the compliment, but I doubt they'll be gushing over it. Valve's a fairly successfull company itself with a very solid reputation. Besides, you gotta take some compliments at face value. What was Miyamoto going to say, that Portal sucks balls?

Re:Un peu de poids.

[binarylarry]

This guy practically invented video games as we know them.

I'm sure the people at Valve jumped in the air, simultaneously high five-ing each other after they read that.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Super Mario Galaxy now stands as one of my favorite games of all time, so I'm going to have to respectfully disagree with him. :P

Re:Un peu de poids.

[master5o1]

I thought Zelda & Mario were one-man teams of Miyamoto.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

are you fucking kidding me? the guy is so last decade it's not even funny.

it's more along the lines of keith richards saying he really admires the dave matthews band.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Eh. I don't know. I'm sure Valve appreciates the compliment, but I doubt they'll be gushing over it.

Oh please. There probably wasn't a dry pair of underwear in the whole building.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Translation Error]

And then fell to the ground and started cursing up a storm after smashing their heads into invisible blocks.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh yea? Who's this decade? EA?

Re:Un peu de poids.

[xenocide2]

Amusingly, the actual team behind Portal were at DigiPen, a training institute that Nintendo of America is deeply intertwined with. I dare say part of the reason that Portal is that Nintendo is very Japan centric, and unable to fully embrace American innovators, even ones they grew. Valve happily snatched the group up and paired them with talent from everywhere. If you look at their one endeavor to actually capitalize on the eager people ready to work for Nintendo, NST, they're a damn near failure. Every game they make is a derivative or sequel, it's like a list of "all the games you fuckers should have played, damnit!" It's clearly not a matter of talent, so I'm willing to blame management.

Clearly many people involved with Portal are enamored with Miyamato's games. Seanbaby brings a culture of gaming steeped in the history of gaming, all the way back to the NES. And yet it seems like NoA would have made sure nobody with his edgy cult celebrity status would participate.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[DDLKermit007]

Yeah the Wii is SOOOOO last decade.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Drinking Bleach]

I've seen so many people actually believe Miyamoto is in control of the franchises he created, I really believe your post to be sincere.

In reality, Nintendo executives are after profit no matter the cost -- well, actually, not that drastic, it seems that the Nintendo 64 blunder and the lack-luster GameCube popularity changed their minds, somewhat. The Wii was a gimmick with little benefit than a then-unique input method (well, actually, the whole motion sensing thing is nothing new, but it rarely appeared on consoles except for one or two Dreamcast games). They make games based around the input, and out comes Zelda Twilight Princess and Super Mario Galaxy. Not bad games by any standard, but they aren't exceptional. Miyamoto has every right to complain about lack of originality at Nintendo.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

This guy practically invented video games as we know them.

Only if all you know about videogames is Super Mario Brothers.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Or any pre-NES video game. He didn't invent video games, but he did practically invent video games as we know them.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Spacelem]

The N64 wasn't really a blunder. It had Mario 64 and Zelda: Ocarina of Time, which were both considered masters of the genre, and OoT is still considered one of the best games in the world. This was before people started commenting that the series were getting a little stale. Oh, and GoldenEye, and a whole pile of games done by Rare who were so good that Microsoft bought them after Nintendo were found guilty of price fixing and had to sell them off.

In fact I'd say that there were a lot of really awesome games on the N64, just none of them were Final Fantasy. Meanwhile, the N64 had a control stick, and managed to pack an awful lot into those cartridges. It was done to prevent long load times, which it managed. I still love my N64. The worst thing I can say about it is that my control stick got a bit crusty after all these years, and some of games had too low framerates, and it didn't help being in the UK with PAL's higher resolution (although that became less of an issue towards the end of the N64's lifecycle).

The GameCube had the world's most comfortable controller, and I still prefer it to the Wii Remote. It had graphics which were perfectly functional, maybe not as flashy as the other consoles, but I hold that graphics are only a very small part of what makes a game good (proof: if graphics were important, then all older games would suck, and they don't). Nintendo experimented with gameplay, and they came up with some fantastic ideas. They used a very easy SDK, so it was much easier to produce games for the NGC than the PS2, and the X-Box made it too easy to just port PC games.

The N64 and NGC were successful and good consoles, and Nintendo is still in the videogame business despite the heavy competition they faced, and growing stronger than ever. They'd have never made the Wii otherwise.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[scubamage]

Agreed. Miyamoto-san pisses excellence in the video game world - Valve is most likely ecstatic over that simple compliment. Well done guys :)

Re:Un peu de poids.

[elrous0]

Japanese nationalism bit them in the ass on that one. Too many Japanese companies act like it would be beneath them to admit that any Westerner has a good game idea.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[tixxit]

No, as a long-time video game player I say, Twilight Princess and Super Mario Galaxy were both awesome games. That said, any publicly traded company's executives better be after profit, otherwise they shouldn't be execs. Profit for Nintendo - especially long term - comes from making great games & consoles that people buy. This is why people like Miyamoto are such assets to them.

Also, a console is more than just the hardware. Technically, both the Gamecube and the Xbox were better than the PS2, yet who outsold both by more than 6 times? It's about what is the most fun, and that comes from the games that come out for it. Nintendo is expecting Wii shortages AGAIN this winter... this would be the 3rd Xmas season the Wii has been out. Don't you think its time you rethink your "Gimmick" angle?

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Lectoid]

While I agree with the Gamecube's controller being comfortable. I believe that the Xbox 360's controller wins the title.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Cowmonaut]

Turn in your gamers card at the door.

In my day, we'd string you up, but these new fangled wireless controllers...

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Gizzmonic]

Those elite "PC gaming circles" working out for you?

What with EA, LucasArts, etc moving away from the platform, and stores giving less and less floor space?

Soon they'll be dead. I'll light a candle for them.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[notrandomly]

The Wii was a gimmick with little benefit than a then-unique input method

And the 360 and PS3 were gimmicks with little benefit than HD graphics.

They make games based around the input

Wait, like Sony and Microsoft make games based around the capabilities of their respective systems?

Miyamoto has every right to complain about lack of originality at Nintendo.

For those games, maybe. But stuff like Wii Sports, Wii Fit, etc. was pulled of very nicely indeed.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Moryath]

Where Nintendo screwed up on the N64/Gamecube were the storage media and their early treatment of third party game makers.

The N64 had some awesome games, but they screwed themselves by being so scared of "piracy" that they stuck it with consoles. This, compounded with flipping Sony/Phillips the middle finger on the proposed disc-based setup (which led directly to the Sony Playstation) meant that the N64 was competing with an equally-powerful console (PSX) that not only had more RAM (prior to the N64 RAM expansion) but also an order of magnitude more storage space on which to put levels, textures, FMV cutscenes, etc.

The second way Nintendo screwed themselves was with the draconian contract restrictions in the NES/SNES days, where game companies only got so many releases per year (causing Konami and others to create fake subsidiaries like "Ultra" to get around the restriction), game companies only got print runs of as many cartridges as Nintendo allowed through Nintendo's factories (making a real problem for "sleeper hit" innovative games that wound up in way-too-short supply because someone didn't predict they would be popular), and Nintendo's content restrictions (the US never got three of the Final Fantasy games because Square decided they didn't want to compromise the storyline to fit Nintendo's censorship).

In short:
- Cartridges and "proprietary" mini-DVD discs lost out to mass-producible standard CD-Rom and DVD-Rom (and now Blu-Ray?) media. Commodity media is simply easier (and cheaper) to produce on and gave game companies a better profit margin that way. Nintendo chose the wrong side there.
- Years of abusing the third-party game makers hurt Nintendo for a long while when they finally had a "real" alternative (Sony Playstation) in the next-generation media.

The Wii still suffers from this past behavior, too. Look seriously at the number of third-party games for N64/GC as opposed to the Playstation/Xbox line and what do you see? Yeah, there's plenty of shovelware (the whole industry has way too much) but there are a lot more "must have" games for those two platforms than the one or two Zelda/Mario/Pokemon titles that were Nintendo's only exclusives.

Now look at the industry today. Wii's doing better (somewhat solid) but if you've noticed, the main set of third-party guys coming back to Big N on the home console front have been the shovelware vendors. The Wii itself flies off the shelf for people who want Wii Sports/Wii Fit/Wii Play and Zelda/Mario, but anything not made by Nintendo rightly sits on the shelf virtually untouched and for good reason.

The main thing that kept Nintendo afloat during the N64/GC days were Pokemon games and the Gameboy line... and it's really odd that Sony has managed to fuck up the PSP so royally (in terms of having a decent software library) and allowed the hardware-inferior DS to remain in the lead.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Chosen Reject]

Not that I disagree with your points (sadly, as I am a PC gamer), but stores are using less and less floor space partly because PC gamers can get nearly all their games online now. And by that I don't mean Amazon, I mean Steam and the like.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

It's impossible for PC gaming to die because anyone can make games (commercial, shareware, freeware or open source) without paying thousands in license taxes to your console game companies. If you really think PC gaming is dying, you might want to tell Nvidia, AMD/ATI and Intel about it. Your undoubtedly well researched and expert opinions could save them billions in fruitless R&D and production!

What with the crap games EA and LucasArts have been putting out in recent years, you can have them. Actually it's funny that. The worse those companies' games get, the more they move towards consoles. Probably because console gamers have much lower standards and will buy anything based on hype alone.

Have fun playing dumbed down and/or yesteryear technology games on your little Nintendo.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[KDR_11k]

When he was asked about Galaxy's planets resembling those of some Ratchet & Clank game he replied "I haven't heard of that game, is it a PC game?". He also doesn't play videogames much according to interviews. The fact that he played Portal marks it as special already.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[KDR_11k]

Not really, no. Here in Germany PC games sell well and stores allocate a lot of space to them. In the US they don't sell well and stores reduce their space.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[KDR_11k]

Miyamoto has full veto power on any game he participates in AFAIK. Still, the recent Zelda games were led by Aonuma instead who seems to be mostly about emulating what Miyamoto did instead of defining his own game. Well, if he's taking it in any direction it's more story heavy, kinda like Final Fantasy with a different gameplay between the cutscenes. This is the antithesis of the new generation gaming the Wii has started (short, hard, instant-fun games you can fit into a coffee break or play all day).

Super Mario Galaxy wasn't a primary Wii game, it was a regular game that ran on the Wii, just a sequel to an old franchise. The Wii's main games are the likes of Wii Sports and Wii Fit.

The Wii was not a gimmick, it was a component in a business strategy that had its main focus on a new kind of gaming (that being gaming that ANYONE can partake in*) and had motion sensing and such added in order to perform its role in the strategy. The sales numbers confirm that the strategy worked flawlessly and the responses from the former competition (they had a chance to compete, they chose to let the Wii run away with the new market instead) were just as expected in a best case scenario. The Wii is neither motion sensing nor "casual" games, it is the combination of both and only in that combination is it able to work.

*=No, regular games don't cut it and neither do dumbed down regular games. The new customer is neither stupid nor incompetent, just unwilling to deal with the interface and rules of regular games.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[e2d2]

007: Golden Eye FTW!

I loved the N64

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Golddess]

They make games based around the input, and out comes Zelda Twilight Princess

Zelda:TP was developed (and released, I own the disc) for GameCube. It wasn't until some time in the middle of development that it was decided they would port it to Wii as well.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Golddess]

If you look at their one endeavor to actually capitalize on the eager people ready to work for Nintendo, NST, they're a damn near failure.

Now I'm not saying they are or are not a failure (I loved Metroid Prime, but 2 felt kinda drawn out, and 3 hasn't sucked me in like 1 and 2 so I've not bothered to make time to play it) but what about Retro Studios? Or were they once called NST?

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Right, Miyamoto's games aren't boring enough for you PC gamers.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[BenoitRen]

Retro Studios is an American company owned by Nintendo that developed Metroid Prime and its sequels.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[KDR_11k]

I don't think carts were about piracy, they were because previous attempts at CD-pased gaming (Sega CD, TurboGrafx CD, CDi) were horrible failures. Additionally CDs had horrible load times at the time and the need for them wasn't that big, the game content could still fit on a cart, only the FMVs that started getting used much in games (previously they were only used for crappy "interactive movie" games) and the CD music required CDs, Nintendo probably thought the negatives outweight the positives.

BTW, currently the Blu-Ray console is losing to the two consoles that use plain DVDs.

The PSP actually didn't get killed only by itself, the DS tapped into some massive market expansions with games like Nintendogs and Brain Age that the PSP was unable to contest.

I'd wager the Wii is getting bad support more because the GC sold so badly, because third parties all want the glory of High Definition titles since those are "real gamer games" and because third parties think noone can beat Nintendo on their opwn platform so they only put their worst teams on the job and provide excuses to shareholders. A part of the problem is also that they don't understand the "casual" market the Wii has reached into and just try to take their regular games, dumb them down by making them easy and shallow and calling that casual. The requirements are more time contraints than low difficulty, a "casual" player won't put in 3 hours in one session and if the game isn't fun when played in 15 minute increments or so (which for many modern games is less than the length of one cutscene!) it fails to appeal to that type of customer.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

...the Nintendo 64 blunder...

Eh, huh? What blunder? Do you mean the market introduction and standardization of real 3D, analog sticks, 4 player gaming, trigger buttons, 3rd person camera controls, rumble, controller extension ports, and real 3D first person shooters?
Or did you mean the software like Mario 64, Ocarina of Time, Starfox, Mario Kart, Pokemon Stadium, Smash Bros, Goldeneye, etc?

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Drinking Bleach]

Eh, huh? What blunder?

PlayStation massively outsold the N64.

Do you mean the market introduction and standardization of real 3D, analog sticks, 4 player gaming, trigger buttons, 3rd person camera controls, rumble, controller extension ports, and real 3D first person shooters?

Real 3D, like the Saturn and PSX were doing 2 years prior? Analog sticks, like several 2nd/3rd generation consoles? 4 player gaming like the NES (hey, Nintendo had prior art from an earlier system)? Trigger buttons like the SNES? 3rd person camera controls like many PSX/Saturn games? You have rumble dead-on, but controller extension ports weren't new. As for "real 3D first person shooters", do you mean like Doom (1993), or are you strictly talking consoles (which never got a half-decent FPS until Halo for Xbox)? And for the games you listed, I would argue against your list, but that'd be purely opinion. (I think Mario 64 is great, the rest suck except for Starfox, but that was just an updated version of the original Starfox.)

Re:Un peu de poids.

[dougisfunny]

Not until he buys one ;)

Re:Un peu de poids.

[Anonymous Coward]

Have fun playing dumbed down and/or yesteryear technology games on your little Nintendo.

No thanks, I'm too busy playing fun and entertaining games on my little Nintendo. Your post started out good, but descended closer and closer to the realm of shit with each sentence. This line was the finishing blow.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[xenocide2]

Retro started out as a partnership, which evolved into an ownership position when the founder left (usually a bad sign). But you do bring up a good point; Nintendo's strategy to capitalize on the eager fan engineers was to farm out some franchises. It worked, to a degree. Fzero GX and Metroid Prime are two examples of that, an extension of an older program to lend characters to an existing game (mario golf and tennis). Retro is basically a one trick pony, and it looks like people have gotten a bit tired of of their pony show. I'm glad they were able to pay homage to the franchise, but they've basically worked themselves into a hole where if you deviate too much it's no longer Metroid, and if you don't, you're selling the same thing over and over again.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[MikeBabcock]

... and they deserve to do so.

Compliments from Miyamoto on game design should be taken seriously.

That said, to honour him properly would be to bow gracefully and say thank-you instead of high-fiving.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[MikeBabcock]

The N64 was not a miserable failure over all but it was nowhere near as popular or well-regarded as its running mates in that generation.

That said I agree, Rare made the best and most incredible games for the N64 and I played almost all of them. Their later work for the 360 hasn't impressed me near as much I might add.

Nintendo's own Zelda games for the N64 were also excellent, I enjoyed playing and replaying them thoroughly, although I can't say the same about Mario 64.

Re:Un peu de poids.

[MikeBabcock]

Perfect Dark for the N64 was an excellent FPS by all respects, and I preferred it greatly in single player as a game to Halo.

I love Miyamoto's insight

[BorgAssimilator]

He's always taken a unique view at looking at games, and finding out what makes something fun to play, and he's not worried to look back at his own works and locate things that could be improved upon.

I know this post could be considered "redundant", since his genius is obvious, but I love him!

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[FornaxChemica]

At least he's no Nintendo fanboy, he still has some critical sense left. And it's indeed interesting he's criticizing a little Twilight Princess and Mario Galaxy, both of which have been hugely successful in the press, especially Mario (highest-scored Wii game in most websites).

I just hope I'm understanding his remark correctly... that he's not actually thinking those two games should have been more similar in spirit to Wii Sports/Fit/Music. Because when you come to think of it, he's quite enthusiastic about those shallow titles.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[Toonol]

Shallow isn't bad. I spent countless hours of my childhood tossing and catching a rubber ball with my friends; I did it for five minutes with my son yesterday. Simple, shallow, but perpetually awesome.

Or, to illustrate it with videogames; Asteroids is shallow as hell, but playing it is a much purer state of videogame zen than gears of war will ever be.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[Anonymous Coward]

Asteroids needs achievements. And unlockables.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[jonaskoelker]

Or, to illustrate it with videogames;

And as a more modern example, Guitar Hero is just as shallow when you think about it: hit the subset of buttons indicated by the dots when the dots cross the time line up to a certain tolerance. That's all the conceptual "moving parts" in the game; the rest is presentation.

And shallow with good presentation is good; it's a damn fun game, and it's the first game where I've ever replayed a level I've already completed perfectly just for that level's background music :)

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[Tyris]

Interestingly, Twilight Princess didn't do nearly as well over in Japan (when compared to its success in the west). Fortunately (or otherwise?) Miyamoto is the kind of person who respects pushing the envelope, someone who isn't content unless he create something thats new and not seen before.
My issue with him is his latest push towards games that are more family focused, or not games at all. The Wii * series are (in some cases) enjoyable "games", they leave serious gamers wanting more... something he used to (and is certainly capable) of offering.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[4D6963]

Ha, ironically and as funny as your comment is, it points out what's wrong with some of the nearly systematic modern era game design decisions.

Who in this day and age would content themselves with designing something as simple without power-ups, boss levels and so forth?

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[ultranova]

Or, to illustrate it with videogames; Asteroids is shallow as hell, but playing it is a much purer state of videogame zen than gears of war will ever be.

And there's no way in Hell that anyone's ever going to pay 70 euros for it.

Asteroids is an arcade hall game, designed to suck a few coins out of you every now and then. Gears of War is a console game, designed to suck a huge one-time sum out of you. It needs to justify that expenditure by having long play-time, and that means it needs to give rewards along the way. Or look at Zelda, which is constantly pushing new power-ups your way; each dungeon not only makes you more powerful with greater maximum health, but also gives you some new ability, and trains you at its use. That is why it's so successful.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[Sockatume]

And cut-scenes patriots about NANOMACHINES and the WAR patriots ECONOMY. That patriots last about 45 patriots patriots patriots patriots.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[Gulthek]

That's only because you grew up on Asteroids.

Similar to the Mega Man 9 effect.

Shallow is as shallow does, sir.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[sarysa]

I'd be willing to bet he's just a perfectionist. It's not unusual for people who create art to never be satisfied with their own work, while praising the works of others.

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[Toonol]

Kids don't toss balls anymore? That's a relic of my shallow, primitive upbringing?

Re:I love Miyamoto's insight

[mrjimorg]

"One achieves perfection not when there is nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away" I learned that from Civ4

Great Article

[neostorm]

I have a great appreciation of this guy for not being a talking head, and for keeping his critical perspective for his own work and the rest of the industry. He really seems to have a great perspective on games as a whole, and sees where they're at and where they're going (and where they should be right now, which is probably what feeds his criticism of his own work).
I really disliked Twilight Princess, and though Mario Galaxy was great fun for me, it was really just Mario 64 with a top-down camera most of the time.

Re:Great Article

[Anonymous Coward]

though Mario Galaxy was great fun for me, it was really just Mario 64 with a top-down camera most of the time Except it was pure joy and every single moment was masterfully crafted and refined, infinitely moreso than the debut of Mario 64.

Fair comments

[sleeponthemic]

He's right on both counts and it doesn't take anything away from either game to point out they could have been better/more adventurous. I doubt that guy got to where he is "settling" for the level of his games. There is always a new level to reach. I own both and from an end user point of view, they were awesome. No complaints.

I hope this means there will be another Mario game for Wii. It has been a disappointing feature of the latest Nintendo consoles, that only one Mario is released per generation. With the absolute crap that is mostly coming out for the Wii, they really need to step up and rely on the strong franchises to maintain interest.

Re:Fair comments

[enderjsv]

"I hope this means there will be another Mario game for Wii. It has been a disappointing feature of the latest Nintendo consoles, that only one Mario is released per generation."

You know what, I actually kind of have to disagree with that sentiment. I mean, I guess I really wouldn't have anything against a new Mario, but in truth, I really just want to see something new from Nintendo. Looking at the games they've released for the Wii, you have a lot of sequels: Metroid, Smash Bros., Mario Kart, Zelda. I don't have anything against sequels, as long as they're good (and they are), but also I'd really like to see them expand into new IPs.

I'm aware that they have some new IPs, like Wii Fit, Wii Music and Wii Sports, but these are really just novelty IPs, not quite the kind of games I'm into.

I love Mario. Always will. But sometimes, Mario should sit it out.

Re:Fair comments

[sleeponthemic]

That is the problem though - Desires aside, there are not enough actual, proven decent titles coming from the wii catalogue. In a previous post I'd mentioned the realisation that there are very few Wii games reviewed with 85% or higher (compared to other consoles). Something that became increasingly obvious as I checked in bi-monthly to see if there is anything worth playing.

Someone (some awesome individual) then did a bit of stats and posted a very good summation of the situation (deserved to be modded up but too late, I guess). Read these stats and think about how many of the actually good games are franchises.. I will repost it here:
http://slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=1009873& cid=25545311

Ok, let's use Metacritic...

Wii First available: November 19, 2006
Scores 80 and above: 36 games
Scores 85 and above: 13 games
Source: http://www.metacritic.com/games/wii/scores/

Xbox 360 First available: November 22, 2005
Scores 80 and above: 122 games
Scores 85 and above: 47 games
Source: http://www.metacritic.com/games/xbox360/scores/

PS3 First available: November 11, 2006
Scores 80 and above: 79 games
Scores 85 and above: 34 games
Source: http://www.metacritic.com/games/ps3/scores/

PS2 First available: October-November, 2000
Scores 80 and above: 319 games
Scores 85 and above: 149 games
Source: http://www.metacritic.com/games/ps2/scores/

Nintendo DS First available: November, 2004
Scores 80 and above: 64 games
Scores 85 and above: 25 games
Source: http://www.metacritic.com/games/ds/scores/

"Good" Game per Month (GGPM) Ratio Since most consoles were released in November, lets round up their ages by year. And assuming the score of 80 qualifies as a "good" game: - Wii: 36/24 = 1.5 GGPM
- 360: 122/36 = 3.39 GGPM
- PS3: 79/24 = 3.29 GGPM
- PS2: 319/96 = 3.32 GGPM (*)
- NDS: 64/48 = 1.33 GGPM

*) The PS2 probably doesn't have many new games anymore in the past few years.

It seems the NDS and Wii are filled with a lot more family and kids-friendly games, and these games tend to not favor the critics, and possibly most hardcore gamers.

I think, given the quality and innovation of SMG, there is enough room for further elaboration on the Wii.

And if you truly actually want decent titles on the Wii rather than noveltyware, right now, you're worried about the future of this console. Very little quality stuff is coming out. It's a complete contradiction to the perpetually sold out status of the console. I'm surprised more people are not complaining about how poor the catalogue is. As it stands, more often than not if I go browse the Wii shelves, I'm standing next to a family who are buying a game on cover alone (and promised novelty mechanics that rarely work). If that is the majority market, I can see why publishers don't give a shit, just turn out turds and watch the dollars roll in :-)

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination a "gamer". I just make informed decisions on whether to buy something. Strangely, whenever I check whether I should, I'm confronted with a fairly resounding "nothing to see here" regarding new stuff coming for the Wii.

Re:Fair comments

[enderjsv]

I don't know how much blame to put on Nintendo for that. Honestly, Nintendo is one of the best game developers in the world. Despite the fact that they seem to rely a lot on established IPs (as I mentioned earlier), they still manage to crank out good games at an alarming rate. I honestly can't think of any other developer as successful as they have been.

The problem, obviously, is the same problem Nintendo has had ever since Sony went CD format with the PS1, and Nintendo stuck with its proprietary cartridge format. They are unable to attract 3rd party developers willing to make good 3rd party games. It's something that they've never been able to truly come back from.

So what's the problem? The Wii is a very successful system, outselling the Xbox and the PS3 significantly. Why are the 3rd party developers so weary? Well, I can think of two reasons.

1. The system was made and is still being marketed towards the casual crowd. The casual crowd is much less discerning than the core gamers. As such, a 3rd party developer really has little motivation to spend time and money developing something good, and instead can shovel some cheap mini-game, perhaps with some movie license attached to it, and rake in easy dollars. That kind of thing doesn't fly as well on the PS3 or Xbox 360.

2. The system is significantly underpowered when compared to the other two systems. This means that when a developer is choosing which systems to design their games for, they kind of have two options. Develop it for the Wii, or develop it simultaneously for the 360 and the ps3. Even if the Wii matched the total sales of the other two systems combined (which it doesn't), any game would still probably reach higher sales figures if it was released on two platforms instead of one. In fact, now that I think about it, the Wii is kind of competing with the PC as well. Not many games for the wii are released simultaneously on the 360, the ps3, or the PC, but I can think of several games that have come out on all three of those platforms and missed the Wii entirely.

It's been two years, and the Wii is still going strong. I think we've gone past the point where we can wonder if the Wii is just a fad. Apparently, the casual gaming market CAN sustain a system. And sustain it they have. Who'd have thought? But until casual gamers become more discerning, I don't think the Wii is really the system of choice for more prevalent gamers like myself. Or, maybe the casual gamers will grow bored of it, and then Nintendo will be forced once again to appeal to the core crowd. Who knows?

Re:Fair comments

[The Amazing Fish Boy]

It's striking that DS has a similar GGPM rate to Wii, and that both are lower than the other consoles. I think the explanation for the discrepancy is Nintendo's target audience. First, a lot of people who buy Nintendo consoles buy them specifically for Nintendo games: Mario, Zelda, etc. Compare the top selling games for the different consoles: almost all of Wii's are first-party, whereas Xbox 360 and PS3 have more variety in their publishers. So the target market for Nintendo is mostly interested in first party titles.

The other thing is that Nintendo's target market probably buys fewer games per console. How many games does the average Nintendo customer buy a month? I'm not talking about "hardcore" gamers, I'm talking about the average person with a Nintendo console. I would be hard-pressed to say its more than 1 a month.

For the other consoles, you've got more "hardcore" gamers that buy games more frequently, but that can't be expected to buy the same games as each other. As a rough example, 9.53 million Mario Kart Wii sales per 30.55 million Wiis, vs. 3 million MGS4 sales per 16.84 million PS3 sales. Put another way, about 1 in 3 Wii owners bought Mario Kart, but less than 1 in 5 PS3 owners bought MGS4. (I realize there are some important differences, but this is just to give a rough idea.)

This would explain why Nintendo puts out fewer quality games. Their target audience only wants so many games per month, and they can be expected to buy the same quality games as each other. By comparison, the other consoles have to put out more diverse quality games because of the more diverse and frenzied appetites of their target market.

Re:Fair comments

[poot_rootbeer]

"Good" Game per Month (GGPM) Ratio Since most consoles were released in November, lets round up their ages by year. And assuming the score of 80 qualifies as a "good" game: - Wii: 36/24 = 1.5 GGPM

What this tells me is that if you have a gaming budget under $75/month, the approximate cost of one and one half retail titles, there are enough good games available no matter what platform(s) you own.

Of course, it also depends on whether we agree on your definition of "good game". I don't put much weight on the aggregate scores of sites like Metacritic, myself; I think their methodologies skew the results towards the preferences of "hardcore" gamers, and don't accurately reflect the gaming citizenry as a whole. The casual exerciser is going to think Wii Fit is a "good game", regardless of what the review says. The trend-conscious tween girl is going to think the latest Hannah Montana shovelware cash-in is a "good game", regardless of what the review says.

In short, a console should be judged based on whether *I* enjoy the experience it offers, not whether people who may be entirely unlike me do. By that measure, my Wii is a great console.

Re:Fair comments

[The Amazing Fish Boy]

In short, a console should be judged based on whether *I* enjoy the experience it offers, not whether people who may be entirely unlike me do. By that measure, my Wii is a great console.

I agree, but he's trying to make an informed buying decision, presumably without spending the money on renting all the consoles to try them for himself. I don't think an analysis based on game ratings is completely accurate either, but I do think it gives a good ballpark. When you have aggregate ratings showing that Wii has less than half a "good game rate" than the other consoles, you have to think something is going on there. (But I wouldn't buy a 360 because it has a 3.39 GGPM as opposed to PS3's 3.29 GGPM. The difference is too little.)

I think you are spot-on about the monthly gaming budget, though. That's a better way of distinguishing what I meant when I compared "hardcore" gamers to the people Nintendo is targeting. Nintendo is going after a group of people with lower gaming budgets and more homogeneous tastes.

Re:Fair comments

[Tangamandapiano]

I love Mario. Always will.

I prefer Princess Toadstool.

Re:Fair comments

[FunkSoulBrother]

The other thing is that Nintendo's target market probably buys fewer games per console. How many games does the average Nintendo customer buy a month? I'm not talking about "hardcore" gamers, I'm talking about the average person with a Nintendo console. I would be hard-pressed to say its more than 1 a month.

I'd say its way less than that. I'm a somewhat casual gamer (I enjoy the AAA games, but have little play time so only buy a few and they last me forever) looking back over my last 4 or 5 consoles, I'd say I buy 10 to 15 games per console LIFETIME (3-4 years?). Anecdotal of course, but I think 1 game a month is quite a bit.

Re:Fair comments

[KDR_11k]

I'm aware that they have some new IPs, like Wii Fit, Wii Music and Wii Sports, but these are really just novelty IPs, not quite the kind of games I'm into.

But they are what you'll get if you wish for new IPs, new IPs that leverage the new gaming concepts.

Re:Fair comments

[KDR_11k]

Careful, Wii reviews are often useless because the reviewers are part of the old market and judge with the old values resulting in low scores for games like Wii Sports and Wii Fit while the new market with its new values likes these games WAY better than the games the reviewers rate highly.

Of course the Wii is inadequate by the values of the old market, it's a paradigm shift so it no longer aims for the old values and instead goes for new values that aren't reflected in reviews.

Re:Fair comments

[KDR_11k]

They are discerning, they just aren't looking for the same things you are. You don't look for the things they want so you don't notice when a game is inadequate for them but you notice when it's inadequate for you. I wouldn't be surprised if third parties have the same limited vision, they see that the "casual" gamers don't look for high quality in the areas a core gamer values so they decide that "casuals" must not be discerning and will take anything you throw at them. Until they figure out which values the "casual" gamer is looking for they will never be able to consistently produce hit games. The best they can do currently is copy the company that does know what to look for and hope they don't accidentally break the parts that sell the game.

Re:Fair comments

[enderjsv]

Which company would that be? Nintendo? No doubt, Nintendo is a great company. I said it myself in some other post (forget where), if someone made the argument that Nintendo was the best game developer in the world, I wouldn't argue with them. They're awesome. Even their casual games are.

But are casual gamers buying Nintendo games because they're so discerning an they recognize such high quality? Or are they buying them because they're Nintendo games, and otherwise ignoring other high quality casual games being released by 3rd parties?

Well, according to VGChartz, of the top ten games sold on the Wii, 8 of them were published by Nintendo. The two that weren't? Mario & Sonic at the olympic games at number 7, published by Sega, but starring Mario. And Guitar Hero 3 at number 10. Half those games feature mario in one aspect or another.

So the question is, how about the other 3rd party casual games. At 15 is some game called Carnival games, which recieved about a 56 on metacritic. I've never played it so I can't personally attest to it's quality, but I'm fairly skeptical. At 21 and 23 are rayman raving rabbits. I guess they're okay. Boomblox, a casual game of incredible quality, is missing from the top 50. As is Zack and Wicki.

I don't know. I'm hard pressed to believe that casual gamers really have impeccable taste, that simply differs from my own. I find it more likely that they simply buy Nintendo because Nintendo can be trusted. But with third party games, they don't have a clue. That's not an insult, it's just part of being a casual gamer.

Re:Fair comments

[KDR_11k]

It's not about taste but about requirements, for casual gaming it's necessary that the game is not very time consuming so you can play it during a coffee break while still having fun and the game must seem very easy to get into. Nintendo isn't the only one to do that, many flash game makers fulfill those requirements too but the Wii ups the accessibility again by reducing the control abstraction and generally looking less techy.

Boom Blox and Zack & Wiki are NOT casual. They are regular games. Many so-called "casual" games are really just regular games with lowered difficulty and dumbed down mechanics.

Of course the Wii doesn't have exclusively those new gamers, there's a lot of old gamers on there too that buy the regular games but the problems start when companies want to target the new gamers.

BTW, I think the Mario & Sonic game was sold more by Sonic than by Mario, at least in regions like the UK.

Don't trust Metacritic on new market games, Wii Sports has a 77% score on Gamerankings but it's one of the greatest games on the market from the view of the new gamer (while many of our great games simply are no-gos for them).

Question-

[moniker127]

Why do gaming companies have to make 100 versions of the same franchise? I loved zelda, sure... infact, I still have the gold cartridge for it. But, its not the 80s anymore. Come up with something else.

Re:Question-

[moniker127]

Id like to add that I don't mind sequels- they continue the story. But, I don't like games that are just released and released, and released... over and over the story resets to 0 and you do something similar in a different story line.

Re:Question-

[MrMista_B]

Then don't buy them. Do you really think Mario and Zelda are they only games Nintendo makes?

Of course not.

Wii Fit, for example, Wii Music, and others.

The same with other companies - Capcom, for example, makes more than Megaman, and even EA these days is making new games (Dead Space, for example).

It's a tired argument that's never been true, and frankly I'm tired of hearing it.

Re:Question-

[moniker127]

I think there is truth to it. Making the same game over and over gets stale. I know some people still love it, and consider my talk treason, but even the inventor of the IP is starting to think they're lame now. I just think the gaming companies would be better served (or, more accurately, the gamer community) by getting new content.

Re:Question-

[Goaway]

So you basically care mostly about the shallowest characteristics of the games, like their names and the characters used, and don't care that the gameplay is radically different between the various games?

Re:Question-

[Chris Burke]

Meh. As long as they keep making games in the same genre, I see no reason not to keep making games for that genre be part of the same franchise. I still love the Action/Adventure genre as much now as I did in the 80s when The Legend of Zelda basically invented it, so what purpose does it serve for Nintendo to make a new action-adventure game that doesn't use the Zelda brand?

Beyond Good and Evil is an action/adventure that I recommend to friends by calling it "a better Zelda that Zelda", but that wasn't because it didn't feature Zelda characters. It was because it had excellent gameplay in exploration, combat, and sneaking sequences, tightly integrated dungeons, and a lack of time-killing hunt-and-find quests. Okay, the story was also significantly better than your average action-adventure too, but there's nothing that says a Zelda can't have a good story either (and some do).

If StarFox Adventures had been whatever it was before being getting slapped with the license, would it still have been a piece of crap? Most likely, though getting to play as the female character for more than an intro sequence as originally planned might have taken the edge off the suck.

Mario Kart would be an ever better example for a genre where having it be the same franchise makes little to no difference to me.

So, I guess my point is... As long as I like the genre, I don't mind a franchise in that genre. Of course it's very nice when they inject originality into the franchise... But honestly, did Twilight Princess disappoint Miyamoto because the Zelda franchise locks the developers into certain cliches of gameplay (which are equally well cliches in nearly all other games in the genre), or because coming up with completely original gameplay is hard regardless of whether or not you call your game "Zelda", and the dev team just failed to be creative enough?

Re:Question-

[Tjebbe]

While I do agree with you, I must say I think that the Zelda and Mario franchises are bad examples, at least in the earlier iterations. Mario 1, 2, 3, and 64 were completely different games, as were the Zelda's up to and including Ocarina of Time.

IMHO staying within the setting but building a completely new game around it is no problem at all.

Repeating the same game but with fancier graphics or two added gimmicks is a whole different thing. And that is where the newer versions probably went wrong. Although I still liked them :p

Re:Question-

[Anonymous Coward]

"I don't like games that are just released and released, and released... over and over"

In what's known as the EA strategy.

http://www.escapistmagazine.com/articles/view/editorials/zeropunctuation/2883-Zero-Punctuation-Resident-Evil-Umbrella-Chronicles

Re:Question-

[enderjsv]

The gameplay is radically different? Which game are you referring to?

Mario Galaxy radically different than Super Mario Sunshine?
Mario Kart Wii radically different than Mario Kart DS?
Metroid?
Zelda?
Smash Bros?

I guess it's a matter of opinion, but to me, the radical changes to Nintendo IPs mostly happened during the N64 era, and to a lesser extent, the Gamecube era, when games were making the switch from 2d to 3d. All of the games I've mentioned above share quite a bit in common with their N64 and Gamecube counterparts.

Finally, I ask, what's so wrong with wanting original IP's? Why do some people get so defensive when this is asked for?

Re:Question-

[ArtemaOne]

People do come up with something else. I will buy every new version of Zelda, however. You can blame it on me, don't waste your money if you're not interested.

Re:Question-

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Mario Galaxy radically different than Super Mario Sunshine?

Yes, absolutely. Although I see your point with the others. (I say this despite personally having a lot of affection for Twilight Princess.)

Finally, I ask, what's so wrong with wanting original IP's? Why do some people get so defensive when this is asked for?

It was this line: "Why do gaming companies have to make 100 versions of the same franchise?"

Nintendo in particular is pretty darned good at making a compelling sequel. In a world where the vast majority of sequels are, at best, expansion packs of the original game, Nintendo still finds ways to keep them compelling. I never would have thought I'd prefer a Tetris game over the original Game Boy version. But Tetris DS came along and blew me away. Multiplayer Tetris, over the internet, on a portable system. Suh-weeet. Mario Kart DS? Same deal. Zelda? Do a search for GameTrailers Zelda Retrospective. The epic scale of that franchise is mind-boggling. Compare all that to say Grand Theft Auto. Now, I love Grand Theft Auto. I've played the heck out of all the non-portable versions, even before it went 3D. But when I look back, yeah the sequels were fun, but honestly I don't see that big of difference between them. The stories are different, that's what keeps me coming back, but fundamentally we were given a few trivial upgrades to the original premise. I won't be waiting in line for the next GTA game anymore. Even Bully could be considered an unofficial GTA sequel. It's just so... tried and true. It's hard to look at a series like that then criticize Nintendo for their sequels.

Even then, I really don't have a problem with criticism of Nintendo's games. Not every game works with everybody. But you wouldn't seriously say that Nintendo doesn't try new things, would you? Wii Fit? Wii Sports? (The best selling game of 2007 and it's.. bowling?!) Brain Age? Strikers? Seriously man, when you say things like you did, it sounds like somebody who read the title and jumped to conclusions about what the game is. You're going to receive criticism for that by people who know better. It's like saying: "I don't like vegetables because I hate spinach, give me something original." I'm not sure what else you'd expect, honestly.

Re:Question-

[jonaskoelker]

what's so wrong with wanting original IP's?

For one, you could only use them to communicate with 30 other hosts.

Thank you, I'm here all week. Try the v6 ;)

See http://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1.txt; destaddr is five bits; 00000 is unused [says Peter Salus, I didn't read the whole rfc and I don't remember this bit].

Re:Question-

[jonaskoelker]

but there's nothing that says a Zelda can't have a good story either (and some do).

They all do! For one,

SPOILER WARNING
In Twilight Princess, Ganondorf kidnaps princess Zelda.
SPOILER OVER

See?

Re:Question-

[Chris Burke]

Ha, touche. Well, in The Wind Waker, Ganondorf kidnaps Zelda, but she kicks some arse on your behalf in the final fight. Such a shame that the final battle comes only after a ridiculous time-wasting search-and-find quest, because it's one of the best end battles in any game anywhere and I think a lot of people never got to it.

Besides, what's an action/adventure game without someone to rescue? Even in Beyond Good and Evil (yes, I love that game), you end up rescuing a friend. What creative twist are you going to put on the formula that's so unique, yet at the same time compelling?

Re:Question-

[ultranova]

Besides, what's an action/adventure game without someone to rescue? Even in Beyond Good and Evil (yes, I love that game), you end up rescuing a friend. What creative twist are you going to put on the formula that's so unique, yet at the same time compelling?

You get to play as Ganondorf, and your objectives are to learn to use your l33t magic powers (which of course requires finding ancient manuscripts from various dungeons and realizing their true meaning when almost dead in a previously hopeless fight against the boss monster), rise an army, conquer Hyrule, kidnap Princess Zelda and marry her in a lavish spectacle during which the final phase of your operation is carried out, and crush Link in an epic battle when he crashes said wedding party. Then you'll have an option to break and brainwash them both in your torture chamber to become your faithful servants; or you can go the softer route of using your l33t b3d sk1llz to enslave Zelda, then possess her body and do the same to Link, in scenes which fully utilize the motion sensors and shape of the Wii remote for maximum authenticity. As a secret, the latter could result in a child who has inherited aspects of all three triforces; potentially your most powerful general, or your deadliest foe if brought up wrongly (heroically). And of course you get to design your own fortresses and dungeons as you prepare to conquer the lands around Hyrule.

I'll call it "Grand Theft Triforce", or perhaps "Dark World Keeper". A K-18 Zelda for Wii with cutesy graphics and hardcore threesome sex scenes between Ganon, Link and Zelda - that different enough for you, Miyamoto ?-)

Re:Question-

[sanosuke001]

I'm not sure you can count Wii Sports as the best selling game of 2007... didn't it come bundled with the Wii? (I'm not sure, I don't own one)

But a few posts up someone posted his "Good Games Per Month" thing. The Wii/DS have very few games that are actually worth picking up. The Wiimote, most of the time, seems unresponsive and it's used way too often as a novelty product. All it does is make you look like a fool playing a game.

As for Twilight Princess, I own it for Gamecube. I don't think we can call it a Wii game. It's more of a port. I'm glad, too, because I really don't see any reason to own a Wii.

Re:Question-

[notrandomly]

I'm not sure you can count Wii Sports as the best selling game of 2007... didn't it come bundled with the Wii?

Wii Sports was not bundled in Japan, and still sold by the bucketload.

The Wii/DS have very few games that are actually worth picking up.

I'm afraid you are wrong there.

Re:Question-

[notrandomly]

Making the same game over and over gets stale.

But that's not what happens with Mario and Zelda. Mario 64 is completely different from Mario 3 is completely different from Mario 2 is completely different from Super Mario Bros. And Mario Sunshine is completely different from 64. Galaxy is something completely new again.

The same goes for Zelda, for the most part. 1 and 2 were completely different. The SNES game was completely different from Zelda 2. OoT was 3D, obviously very different. Majora's Mask looked similar, but the gameplay mechanics were very different compared to other Zelda games. TP approaches OoT I guess, but is still very different in many ways.

Re:Question-

[notrandomly]

Finally, I ask, what's so wrong with wanting original IP's?

Nothing. But apparently you've missed things like Wii Fit, Animal Crossing, Nintendogs, Wii Music, Pikmin, etc. It's not like Nintendo never comes up with something new.

Why do some people get so defensive when this is asked for?

They get defensive when someone wants Nintendo to ditch known and loved characters. I want to experience a new Zelda game, based on new technology which can bring new parts of the Zelda universe to me.

Re:Question-

[notrandomly]

No, please don't ditch characters like Mario and Zelda. A lot of people have an emotional attachment to these characters. I want to play as Mario and Link in the future. Familiar is good.

And as for coming up with something else, don't Pikmin, Nintendogs, etc. count?

Re:Question-

[caution live frogs]

You don't see a reason to own a Wii? My wife is not a gamer by any means, but I have a Wii because my wife wanted one after playing it at a friend's house. This is why they are selling. Nintendo figured out that "looking like a fool" while playing can actually be fun for non-gamers. The Wii is in high demand in senior citizens homes, for pete's sake, because using the controller is so simple and natural that even your grandma can see the appeal.

To make this platform successful Nintendo doesn't need a huge number of amazing games. All they need are a small number of good games that appeal to the target audience. Guess what: You and I aren't it. Your grandma and my wife are the target here, and it's working.

On a personal note, I'm quite pleased with the machine. I don't feel that it's underpowered for the games I play (if I want real computing power I look to PC games anyway). I really like that the majority of the popular games for the platform are balanced well enough to allow me to play on an approximately equal level with my peers, or with non-gamers or novice gamers such as my wife, or my nephews, or even my parents and in-laws. The fact that it can play my old GameCube disks, and that the majority of the Nintendo, Sega and TurboGrafx back catalog can be downloaded to the device, well for me that's just gravy.

Re:Question-

[Anonymous Coward]

Just F.Y.I. His post was specifically about new IPs for the Wii. Pikmin was originally released on the gamecube (is there even a pikman game for the Wii?). Animal Crossing was originally release on the gamecube. Nintendogs is a DS game.

Re:Question-

[hansamurai]

This is my biggest complaint about Twilight Princess. For 90% of the game, we have a brand new villain and a brand new side kick in Zant and Midna. They are interesting, have cool back stories, and all around fresh for a somewhat stale Zelda universe. Then all of a sudden, it's like the writers had some kind of epiphany that Zelda and Gannon HAD to be in the game and if they didn't play their stereotypical, cookie cutter roles we've seen 10 times before, the title wouldn't be worthy of being called Legend of Zelda.

I was incredibly disappointed and I finished the game only knowing I was just a few hours from being done. It was honestly a slap in the face for getting to know and love the new characters, Midna especially.

Re:Question-

[LrdDimwit]

I am intrigued by your ideas, and wish to subscribe to your wailing list.

Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[7Prime]

While I applaud his candid response, I wouldn't have had anything against him saying, "well folks, we've put out the two best games in their respective series"... because I feel both were. Twilight Princess combind the timeless epic quality of Ocarina of Time, but gave it the drama and heart that I feel that the series has lacked. Mario Galaxy may not quite beat out Mario 3 in my book, but both felt eerily similar in their inspired quality, and I think that Mario Galaxy is the best game since Mario 3. Now, all I feel they need to do with Zelda is do to TP, what Majora's Mask did to OoT, ie: fuck with it, do something out of left field that's not "normal" for Zelda. MM was my favorite game in the series until TP came along. TP is now probably my favorite game... period.

Portal was wonderful, don't get me wrong. However, it didn't present me with a full emotional and gameplay spectrum the way that Zelda or Mario do... it was a short vignette of a game, a very perfect one, for that matter. Don't know why I can put ICO at the top of my list but not Portal (similarly short), but something keeps Portal from reaching that high eschellon for me.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Cocoa Radix]

You forget that Miyamoto is VERY into innovation. Pikmin, Nintendogs, Wii Fit (among others): those are all his, and all are/were pretty innovative ideas. Portal was innovative, too, and it's obvious why he really likes it.

I thought that Twilight Princess was an excellent game, as well, but while I played Mario Galaxy from start to finish -- and enjoyed it thoroughly -- its linearity kept it from being either challenging or exciting.

Remember Mario 64? How you pretty much had free reign over fifteen large worlds? In Mario Galaxy, there are some large worlds, sure, but depending on which objective you're on, you're really only allowed to visit certain parts of each world, and to progress from celestial body to celestial body, you just walk from point A to an obvious point B -- there's never any guesswork or exploration involved. For me, that's what made Mario Galaxy way too easy and predictable.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Nightspirit]

Oddly enough I thought Mario Galaxy was awesome but Twilight Princess was trash, although I probably would have liked TP if I played it on the gamecube instead.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[macshit]

Oddly enough I thought Mario Galaxy was awesome but Twilight Princess was trash, although I probably would have liked TP if I played it on the gamecube instead.

I never played TP on the wii, so I don't know how it was affected by the different controller, but I can confirm that TP is an excellent game on the gamecube. Besides the moving story, fun gameplay, and engaging characters (the sidekick, Midna, was great, probably the best NPC in any zelda game to date), the controls on the GC were utterly spot on. It was also graphically very well done.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Anonymous Coward]

Remember Mario 64? How you pretty much had free reign over fifteen large worlds?

Arrrrgh! Twice in one day!

You are given free REIN! A rein is used to control a horse, and when you relax your grip and relinquish control, you're giving him "free rein." How exactly would you give someone free reign? Abolish the constitutional monarchy and re-establish divine right, for $0? That right there is retarded, and it's not what SM64 gives you, anyway!

  Oh god, I'm having a grammar nazi aneurysm! ARRRGH! *dead*

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Anonymous Coward]

"Twilight Princess combind the timeless epic quality of Ocarina of Time, but gave it the drama and heart that I feel that the series has lacked."

I would still say that Ocarina of Time was better in this quality because I don't think "heart" could help the game. It had this kind of pristine majesty that stands out even when you play it today, and too much "heart" (which I'm reading as "drama") would really have tainted the purity of the game. Zelda64 was not about developing character and personal relationships, which gave the game this kind of surreal quality that you can't find easily. That implicit and graceful form is what makes the game timeless and haunting. Years from now we'll look back at Twilight Princess and think, "That was a fun game, but kind of corny now." People will still be downloading and playing Ocarina of Time.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Cocoa Radix]

You're absolutely right. My apologies. I've always considered myself a grammar nazi, but you're shattering my world right here!! =)

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Anonymous Coward]

You're both totally wrong; the term is "free RAIN." Because, you know, rain is free and falls everywhere.

Millions upon millions of uneducated MySpace-and-cellphone-generation teenagers can't be wrong.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Zebedeu]

Don't know why I can put ICO at the top of my list but not Portal (similarly short), but something keeps Portal from reaching that high eschellon for me.

If you loved ICO, you will probably love Shadow of the Colossus even more (if you don't know about it yet). It's a kind of sequel to ICO while not really being a sequel.

This is coming from someone with more or less the same taste in gaming, though I would certainly put Portal up there with the masters.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[LordKronos]

How exactly would you give someone free reign

I don't know, but the ability to have free and total control to do whatever you feel like without any restrictions does kind of fit the term, whether or not that's the correct spelling.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Hatta]

I dunno, I'm playing through Mario 64 currently. The levels seem pretty small, but that's a good thing. Otherwise you'd just be looking for stars forever. But you know, after playing the same level over 3 or 4 times, I get kind of tired of it. I just don't feel motivated to play through yet again to find the last few stars I couldn't find the first time through. To some extent, linearity prevents you from wasting your time, getting lost in a part of a level that won't help you progress through the game. To me, that makes a game more rewarding. I want the challenge to come from completing a difficult task, not figuring out what the hell I need to do in the first place.

Re:Weird, I disagree with him (sort of)

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh god, I'm having a grammar nazi aneurysm!

As your resident semantics nazi, I must object to your implication that the difference between "rein" and "reign" has anything whatsoever to do with grammar.

devil's advocate

[wzzzzrd]

when he's such a great game designer, he should be able to come up with some new franchise that tops mario and zelda. after all, these are the things he's famous for: inventing new stuff. now, taking a franchise and turn the already developed characters into some new game is one thing (if the game is great that's good), but the real genius comes up with a new theme. do it. now.

and, tbh, just *talking* about game design and what needs to be done is lame, at least for a guy like him. don't talk, do.

Re:devil's advocate

[Anonymous Coward]

I think that his reply would be: why? Whether a game is good or not depends on its gameplay, not what franchise it's associated with. It doesn't matter if a game has Mario or Zelda games in it as long as it's a good game, so if you're making a new game, why not re-use existing, popular characters if they fit into the game's style?

Oh, and some of Nintendo's newer "franchises" include Animal Crossing and Pikmin.

Re:devil's advocate

[Anonymous Coward]

One man does not design a game alone. There are whole design teams. He is leading the design team with this and trying to inspire them to do better.
It's actually harder to lead a team to come up with something great than it is to just do it yourself, but if you can get such a team, the value is so much greater.

Re:devil's advocate

[Anonymous Coward]

He already has, many, MANY times. So, he isn't just talk. Aside from marketable franchises, he has invented entire genres, unique mechanics that have become pandemic in gaming, entire new avenues of game-interaction. And he does all of this over and over, every decade. With his vision, I am certain that he already has tons of to-be-implemented ideas, he's just prepping the minds of others for the next step.

Re:devil's advocate

[MrMista_B]

What the hell are you talking about? Ever heard of something like Wii Fit? Wii Music? The entire Wii console?

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

Re:devil's advocate

[wzzzzrd]

yea, nice fancy stuff, but that is technology, not game design. wii fit, nice, but not as revolutionary as the first mario or the first zelda. it's as revolutionary and new as the iphone is. i'm just saying he can do more than *that*. see what impact mario had? in 10 years the wii will be remembered as the macbook of consoles. creating new universes is a whole other thing.

You have no idea what you're talking about, do you?

you're right, i usually don't. that's why i post on slashdot ;)

Re:devil's advocate

[thetoadwarrior]

He has come up with new franchises. Pikmin, Nintendogs, most of the Wii titles, like that new music game, but, despite their success, they don't get remembered the way Mario or Link does. It's hard for one successful game to compete against a series that's been successful for decades.

Re:devil's advocate

[thetoadwarrior]

By your logic most of the arcade games of the early 80's aren't games either.

Re:devil's advocate

[KDR_11k]

Nonsense. You know the impact Wii Sports and Fit have? Making people who had zero interest in gaming suddently start playing. They don't create any universes since those are just excuses to justify the rules of the game, most Nintendo characters are just empty placeholders that were designed only so the player has some avatar in the game. Now we have Miis that eliminate the need for a fixed avatar, instead letting the player use a character he designed himself.

Miyamoto's insight...

[wild_berry]

LittleBigPlanet is a game that Miyamoto should have made. It's the Mario MMO. You play as Mario, beating the platforms, or as Bowser, making the platform levels. And you get to challenge friends as if you stole their princess...

Portal? Really?

[Anonymous Coward]

I must be one of the few here that finds portal boring and not worth my time, along with Twitter. I suppose I should like Ruby on Rails too.

Miyamoto is right

[thetoadwarrior]

The Wii versions of Zelda and mario are excellent (Mario more so) but while they're enjoyable, worth buying and feel quality they do feel a bit like someone who's played the same character for decades and is just going through the motions.

They're lacking a bit of the excitement you used to get from the series.

Long play

[Quila]

I guess you didn't have Asteroids on your 2600. Long play time, there have been records for the games of that era at over two days of straight play. How long does Gears of War take to finish?

Mod parent up

[elrous0]

I don't see why this is modded flamebait. He has a legitimate point. Let's face it, processor-wise and capability-wise the Wii is little more than a slightly improved Gamecube. The whole console was built around the controller, as has every game for the system. This is a fun novelty, for sure (and great for parties). But it would still be more than fair to call it a "gimmick," especially as so many Wii owners are now admitting that their Wii's spend most of the time these days gathering dust (only broken out for friends and parties). While consoles like the 360 and PS3 move forward, many Wii owners are increasingly disappointed by scarce offerings and underpowered performance (look at Yahtzee's recent review of the Wii version of The Force Unleashed for a pretty good summary of this problem).

Re:Mod parent up

[notrandomly]

Let's face it, processor-wise and capability-wise the Wii is little more than a slightly improved Gamecube. The whole console was built around the controller, as has every game for the system.

And controller-wise, the other consoles are little more than same old, same old. Why are better graphics better than a new controller exactly?

But it would still be more than fair to call it a "gimmick,"

Just like the focus on graphics in the other consoles is just a "gimmick"?

You have an interesting definition of "gimmick". Wii is a lot more mainstream and reaches a lot more people than the other consoles with its controller, which makes it easier for people to pick up and play a game. That's not a gimmick.

underpowered performance (look at Yahtzee's recent review of the Wii version of The Force Unleashed for a pretty good summary of this problem).

And the other consoles have "underpowered" controllers.

Re:Mod parent up

[vux984]

I don't see why this is modded flamebait. He has a legitimate point. Let's face it, processor-wise and capability-wise the Wii is little more than a slightly improved Gamecube.

Let's face it, you are essentially trolling here.

Processor-wise and capability-wise the Wii is more than twice as powerful as a gamecube by any reasonable measuring.

The whole console was built around the controller,

What precisely do you think a gaming console should have been built around? Blu-Ray?

as has every game for the system.

That simply isn't true.

This is a fun novelty, for sure (and great for parties). But it would still be more than fair to call it a "gimmick,"

http://kotaku.com/5071145/sony-patents-ultrasonic-waggle-controller-technology

Hint: a "gimmick" that proceeds to be copied into every future console made by every competitor is not a gimmick. Motion control is here to stay, deal with it.

especially as so many Wii owners are now admitting that their Wii's spend most of the time these days gathering dust (only broken out for friends and parties).

Right, because 'core gamer' fanbois starting threads about their Wii collecting dust being repeated on every gaming forum every couple months should be taken seriously. And as for casual gamers -- what do you expect? Most things we do casually collects dust most of the time. Part of the definition of 'casual' is that we don't obsessively do it all the time.

While consoles like the 360 and PS3 move forward,

Wii is reliably outselling the PS3 and 360 by 2:1 or more. The Wii is not being left behind.

many Wii owners are increasingly disappointed by scarce offerings and underpowered performance

Yes, its abject disappointment that causes title after title to sell out. SSBB sold out and was hard to find for a few weeks. MarioKart sold out and was hard to find for few weeks. I have still yet to see Wii Fit in stock anywhere.

Its true a small class of Wii owners are disappointed by a scarcity of offerings in a genre that is better served by the other consoles anyway. To them I say, "Hey moron, buy another console."

(look at Yahtzee's recent review of the Wii version of The Force Unleashed for a pretty good summary of this problem).

The 'problem' with Force Unleashed as he so eloquently pointed out, really had NOTHING to do with the Wii. In particular he complained that:

a) the graphics would have been considered poor even on the Xbox 1.
b) the level design was BAD
c) Lucas is an idiot
d) the motion control system was terrible
e) Lucas is really an idiot
f) lack of balance - the force powers made the light sabre a pointless distraction

In other words, Wii owners are the victim of a particularly shitty cash grabbing port of an already flawed game.

Nobody expects the graphics to be on par with the PS3, but to look like rubbish compared to LAST gen consoles reflects on the developer not the console. Ditto for bad level design. Ditto for bad controls. (We have a number examples of games that do motion control VERY WELL -- resident evil 4, metroid prime, etc -- so when a game shows up with shitty controls, its the developers fault.)

And as for Lucas being a complete idiot, and the lack of balance between sabre and force -- those are in ample evidence on the PS3 version too.

So what exactly was the 'problem' with the Wii?

Re:Mod parent up

[Anonymous Coward]

I have a half dozen fun Wii games that I'd like to play right now, and another half dozen that I'd like to by, but unfortunately my Wii is gathering dust because I just don't have the time to sit down and play them. It's not any lack of games, or lack of fun.

Re:Mod parent up

[BenoitRen]

Let's face it, processor-wise and capability-wise the Wii is little more than a slightly improved Gamecube.

That's what most people say, and they don't know what they're talking about.

The processor is compatible with the GameCube's Gekko, but its lineage is the same as the Cell's and the Xenon's. It's a throw-away model which Nintendo picked up for cheap, then customised for GameCube compatibility.

As for the rest, the motherboard is completely new. The graphics chipset is much better.

Re:Mod parent up

[RoadToDawn]

Notrandomly, I think you're missing his point. When Miyamoto was praising Portal, I'm pretty sure he was praising the actual gameplay rather than the graphics. But the Portal system still need a powerful engine to work properly - something that the Wii isnt keeping up with. I for one, owned a Wii and was very disappointed, as it is very gimmicky. I first imagined games where you would weild the Wiimote like a sword and it would move the same way as you do - but it was not to be. Many games just recognise two or three motions with the wiimote which trigger actions that you would be able to do with a button on any other controller. Even Zelda itself simply recognises the wiimote being swung, and to differentiate between a horizontal and vertical slash one must hold the Z button for one, and not for the other. This isnt really innovative, its just a way of disguising something they already had. In fact, one of the few games I have played that attempted to use the Wiimote to its portential was Red Steel. It wasnt perfect but it *tried*. Swordfighting consisted of weilding the sword like a sword, and gunfighting had the nice little trick that if you held the wiimote sideways, the gun would be held sideways. However, the imperfect controls got the game slated, and I'm pretty sure the actual concpets were taken for granted. I havent played a single Wii game that actually works well, in the way that I imagined. Id rather stick to buttons than a half baked control system. Zelda, Smash Bros and Resident Evil 4 are probably the best Wii games I have played, and none of them gained anything from the control system. I've got to say, it was very refreshing to hear Miyamoto being so modest.

Re:Mod parent up

[notrandomly]

That's rather dishonest of you, trying to pretend that Miyamoto's comment was relevant to your bashing of the controller.

It's interesting that you should mention Resident Evil 4, seeing as it made good use of the Wii Remote pointer. That many games don't use the Wii Remote to a greater degree is a different issue. That said, the Wii Remote is obviously easier to use for most people than controllers full of confusing buttons. And that's where the others lag behind. They bet everything on nice looking games. Nintendo went for a better controller.

Re:Mod parent up

[MikeBabcock]

Graphics power isn't nearly as important as processing power, but people have a certain normative graphical level they get accustomed to whether it be on TV or in gaming, and when you don't keep up to par, its obvious and distracting.

Re:Mod parent up

[notrandomly]

Similarly, most people find traditional game controllers to be far too confusing and hard to use. When you don't keep up to par with Nintendo's extremely easy to use offering, it's obvious and distracting.

Re:Mod parent up

[RoadToDawn]

I wasnt intending that to be dishonest, just the way the post came out without my indentations made it look like I was relating it, while it was meant as more of a side note. You say that Nintendo went for a 'better' controller. But in my eyes it isnt better - its the same thing as before just now people have to swing it instead of pressing a button. I've had no more enjoyment with the Wiimote than with any other console, in many cases it seems more of an annoyance than fun - badly thought out controls that seem to be used just for the sake of calling it revolutional. Although indeed there are cases where the pointer has been used nicely, the amount of shoddy controls I have seen far outweighs it. Personally, being neither a child or an elderly person, I don't find normal controllers confusing in the slightest - no more than the wiimote itself. And I often feel that Nintendo's need to branch out to the other generations results in a lot of poor games that are just advertised well, and fed to the masses rather than the gamers - a smart move from Nintendos profits side of things, but a nasty one for people who actually enjoy good games. The quality of games on the Wii has not improved since the GameCube - the best Wii games I have played are on GameCube as well and are just as good. I'm fed up of people calling the Wii controls 'better' because theyre different. They no great breakthrough, and theyre only good if you're into the niche games theyre built for. I havent seen a single Wii title that I could call a masterpiece that wouldn't have worked just as well without the Wii controls.

Re:Mod parent up

[notrandomly]

You say that Nintendo went for a 'better' controller. But in my eyes it isnt better - its the same thing as before just now people have to swing it instead of pressing a button.

That makes it better. It makes it easier and simpler to use.

And I often feel that Nintendo's need to branch out to the other generations results in a lot of poor games that are just advertised well, and fed to the masses rather than the gamers - a smart move from Nintendos profits side of things, but a nasty one for people who actually enjoy good games.

Nintendo's own games this generation have been excellent. And it should be obvious that Nintendo needed to go somewhere else than the other two. They can outspend Nintendo when it comes to gaphics. Graphics aren't all that important. The Wii Remote shows how important the controller is.

I'm fed up of people calling the Wii controls 'better' because theyre different.

They are better because they are simpler and easier to use. They are more accessible to a lot more people.

Re:Mod parent up

[RoadToDawn]

But, it isn't better. Its just different. People could learn buttons as easily as the Wiimote if they bothered to try. Its simply the fact that Nintendo have marketed it to be more user friendly that its gotten this reputation. I for one found the controls of the GameCube version of Twilight Princess much nicer on the GameCube than the Wii. Apart from the pointing to aim which was fair enough (yet nothing to write home about), the battle controls were tedious and if anything pointless - if anything its just more likely to cause RSI in youths than buttons do. And also on that note, I've found a lot of older people have trouble pointing and controlling the Wiimote, so it isn't by any means brilliant.

Again, you say that Nintendos games this generation have been 'excellent'. But I can barely think of any - aside from Zelda, Mario, Mario Kart (although I personally didnt like it) and Smash Brothers, 3 of 4 being just as good with the Cube controller. Mario Galaxy was alright but no better than Sunshine, and the main gameplay was near identical apart from a few gimmicky 'mini-game' style side parts, which were by no means revolutionary.

And you say that the controls are "more accessible to a lot more people", but the only people I can see this applying to is older people and younger children. Younger children shouldnt even be playing games if they dont understand them (even more so when they're playing games above their age rating - but thats a different discussion), they should be out in the real world learning, and are older people such a big thing that the market for the real gamers (and real spenders) should suffer? I have seen a drastic drop on quality immersive games this generation, and it is largely due to Nintendo's new 'ideas' and the other leading consoles trying to follow suit. And then theres the amount of shoddy games produced for the Wii, because companies are not fully commited into integrating the new system into their games, rather "tacking-on" the controls to a game that otherwise doesnt need them. I have played a few games that are on both the Wii and other consoles - and the Wii version is pretty much always the worse version - with its badly implemented controls and a huge decline in graphical quality.

Until we have controls that do exactly what you do, the Wii's control system is a waste of time. Do you really think waving your arms about like a lunatic is *that* much fun? I for one got very bored of it very quickly. Its all very unnecessary, and _less_ responsive and accurate to the old controllers I grew up with. If I wanted to play bowling *just like the real thing*, I'd just go out bowling and do the real thing, which is largely better anyway. I'm sick up of seeing games like "Beach Games" and "Fun at the Carnival", thats simulating things I could do in real life anyway. If games companies make less and less games like Tomb Raider and Final Fantasy, then where will gamers find their escapism?

And how about Nintendo's future? Unlesss they continue with Wii-stlyle (and DS style) games in future consoles, their backward compatibility will be all but lost, and I certainly won't be having multiple Nintendo consoles set up at the same time.

Re:Mod parent up

[notrandomly]

But, it isn't better. Its just different.

No, it's better. It's more intuitive, easier to use and extremely versatile.

People could learn buttons as easily as the Wiimote if they bothered to try.

That's the thing. You don't have to learn all those buttons. It's far more intuitive.

Mario Galaxy was alright but no better than Sunshine, and the main gameplay was near identical apart from a few gimmicky 'mini-game' style side parts

Now I know you must be trolling :)

Re:Mod parent up

[RoadToDawn]

OK well clearly we are at odds. You enjoy the wiimote, and I cant stand it.
No point arguing over it. My points arent going through and youve shown me nothing that changes my mind.

There's no question. Wii is not a fad.

[LrdDimwit]

If Nintendo (for some insane reason) decided tomorrow to stop manufacturing Wiis, and let them sell out, they would still stand a good chance of winning this generation (which will probably only last 3-4 more years). They're that far ahead.

Miyamoto likes...

[MoldySpore]

When asked why Zelda isn't more like Portal, Miyamoto responded:

"The Sushi is a LIE!"

...and quickly ran out of the room. He was seen leaving riding a magic carpet from Mario Bros. 2.

Gamecube hosted some of the graphically best games

[Invertedzero]

The gamecube's graphics weren't as flashy as the other consoles? It rivalled the Xbox and destroyed the PS2 and DC in terms of graphics. Just go have a look at Metroid Prime or even Starfox Adventures released in 2002 compared to other games released around that time, it almost looked like what could be percieved to be a generational jump at the time. It still looks better than many wii and poorly made 360 games, minus an odd couple of standard graphics card enhancements.

Galaxy took a first step... Twilight - static

[Invertedzero]

Nah, Galaxy was quite different to Mario 64 despite that. Galaxy had streamlined and simplified gameplay akin to the original Super Mario Bros on the NES, which was impressive in some aspects but then seemed a bit weightless in others when compared to mario 64. Great overall game, but i agree with Miyamoto that for the next installment i want to see something BIG and adventurous, similar to what Super Mario Bros. 3 was on the NES compared to the original, an ambitious attempt to expand the interactivity and size of the game itself without wrecking the gameplay. Twilight Princess for me was disappointing... Great game, but it didn't have a real function as OoT, MM or WW did. It didn't go to any great lengths to innovate or expand on the zelda experience, and in fact in some ways seemed simplified compared to OoT and MM. Wind waker was simple, but it was certainly original and was entertaining to play, despite being far far too easy. It almost seemes as though Nintendo started work on Twilight princess as a Gamecube title being the successor to Ocarina, but gave up halfway through development and decided to turn it into 'another Zelda game'. If you look back to early screenshots you can even see some evidence of this with the appearance of the Green Magic meter bar, not present in the final version.

Nintendo's talent is being wasted on the casual

[Invertedzero]

I fear for the industry. Nintendo are always the ones to innovate, change perspective on how gaming is done. Improving quality and concepts in games themselves... This talent is wasted on the family friendly stuff. They could create some truly masterful game pieces with the Wii's motion sensing and limited power, and even better if they went next gen graphically... Look at Retro Studios! very talented developers... what do nintendo do ignore them! Metroid Prime 3 is one of the Wii's best, how was it marketed? oh wait was it marketed?! Instead all we see are these cringeworthy fake family scenarios playing wii sports/fit and brain training! Disgrace.

Re:Gamecube hosted some of the graphically best ga

[Spacelem]

I loved Metroid Prime, and I found its graphics amazing. I just completed (100%) Metroid Prime 3 on the Wii about two hours ago, and the graphics are only mildly better - things are a bit more rounded - but it was great fun too. I do think that games on the GameCube looked good. I am impressed when really shiny games come out, but it's not my primary reason for playing them.

I'll admit I don't own any of the other consoles, and I've only occasionally seen people play them, which is what I based my comment on. I think I meant that the other consoles tend to go for the "realistic" look, whereas Nintendo just do their own thing, and I know this matters to some people.