Politician Forces German Wikipedia Off the Net

Stephan Schulz writes "A German Member of parliament for a left-wing party, Lutz Heilmann, has obtained a preliminary injunction against the local chapter of the Wikimedia foundation, Wikimedia Deutschland e.V., forbidding the forwarding of the popular http://wikipedia.de to the proper http://de.wikipedia.org. Apparently Heilmann is not happy with the fact that his Wikipedia article (English version) contains information on his work for the former GDR Stasi, the much-hated internal secret service. Wikimedia Germany displays a page explaining the situation, and has announced that it will file an objection to get the injunction lifted. The German Wikipedia has more than 800,000 pages, and is hosted, like all Wikimedia projects, by the Florida-based Wikimedia Foundation, and hence beyond the effective reach of at least German politicians and judges."

Comments

Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Opportunist]

She knows how well that works.

Frankly, I am living close to Germany and until now I didn't know that guy. Ok, I'm not the leftmost person on this planet, but maybe he just wasn't that important. Now, though, I do. And I know that he's probably not the nicest person to be around.

I also wonder how many have considered voting for his party and now, learning about this and what kind of people are inside it, won't touch it.

Not to mention that, if you really insist, you can still choose a different copy of Wikipedia to get information about him. Ok, granted, not in German, but is there anyone in Germany using the internet and NOT able to read English?

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Brian Gordon]

I don't think anyone's really surprised that this came out of Germany. See:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Censorship_in_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_Germany#Freedom_of_Speech
It's scary really. I said only a few days ago that I would never visit or stop over in Germany.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[lukas84]

It's the same in almost every European state - most anti racism laws undermine Free Speech.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[corsec67]

most anti racism laws undermine Free Speech.

Could you have a anti-racism law that doesn't undermine free speech?
One of the basic premises of free speech is that offensive speech should be allowed.

A big part of anti-racism laws is to prevent offensive speech as it relates to race, right?

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Brian Gordon]

Well of course; laws saying that you can't discriminate when hiring don't undermine free speech, though that same employer should be able to have a ferociously racist personal blog. But the point lukas84 is making is that anti-racist-speech laws violate free speech and are bad laws.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[HappySmileMan]

Hitler wasn't really that left wing, he had some left wing policies but overall I'd definitely not call him left-wing.

Olame-a "I'll give everyone 5000$" is trying to do the same in America.

oicwutudidthar, how clever, I'm sure you've influenced everyone's vote for 2012, now that we know that he is both lame and trying to emulate Hitler/Stalin/Mao, you're proof of his plans for genocide are very convincing.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[lukas84]

Well, the whole McCainObama Election thing was very interesting to watch from here (Switzerland).

I'll have to admit that i didn't particularly like McCain, but Obama seemed worse - he wants to introduce most of the problems Europe has to the US, which so far i saw as a better country as they didn't seem to make the same mistakes as most European countries (they made others, of course).

The problem that seems to be the same here and in the US is that politics is more often steered into the subjective "People" direction than an objective "Policies" direction.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Alex Belits]

anti-racist-speech laws violate free speech

True.

and are bad laws.

Not necessarily so. Elevating free speech over other rights is a part of American ideology, however it is not universally accepted, certainly not in Europe or Asia.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Anonymous Coward]

Not necessarily so. Elevating free speech over other rights is a part of American ideology, however it is not universally accepted, certainly not in Europe or Asia.

I wouldn't really attribute it to regions, and instead to groups.

Left-Wing prefers to undermine peoples freedoms for "the good cause", like in this case, morality. Without considering the impect.

Right-Wing prefers individual freedoms over the hissy-fits of a a few minorities. Like drawings of certain prophets, or jokes about our strongly pigmented fellow men.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Anonymous Coward]

As a nigger, I must say that you even mentioning the word "race" is offensive to me.

Only those of African descent are allowed to say the word "nigger" and have a Black Entertainment Channel . Not only do you snotty-ass caucasians, littledick Asians, and fence-jumping Hispanics don't get your own racial entertainment channels, you're not even allowed to mention race; lest you be a raciss 'n' shit.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Jerry]

For Americans "Congress shall make no law ... abridging the freedom of speech,"

abridge /brd/ [uh-brij]
-verb (used with object), abridged, abridging.
1. to shorten by omissions while retaining the basic contents: to abridge a reference book.
2. to reduce or lessen in duration, scope, authority, etc.; diminish; curtail: to abridge a visit; to abridge one's freedom.
3. to deprive; cut off.

Defining someone else's utterance or writing as "hate" speech (politically incorrect) and then outlawing it is an example of abridgment, which destroys freedom of speech. That political expediency can be abused by some other group which may happen to gain power to make illegal those who, for example, publicly state that God does not exist, thus silencing YOUR freedom of speech.

A similar farce exists in China, where freedom of speech and religion are guaranteed under their constitution but not respected by those in power, so people are regularly fined and/or imprisoned for speaking against the government or for practicing a religion not recognized by the party in power.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[IceMonkiesForSenate]

Using that logic North Korea is a democracy. After all, what does DPRK stand for? What Hitler created was not socialist, or communist. In fact he hated those forms of government (part of the reason he attacked Russia in the first place). Germany during the late 30's and 40's was a fascist regime, as was Italy. Yes, Hitler's rhetoric talked of social justice, but that was what he did to get himself into power. The Germans of the time were willing to follow him because of his message of hope. In the end the NAZI party did nationalize some of the countries industry (a socialist move for sure), but to say that Hitler was a socialist is a corruption of the word. Facisim != Socialism

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[BobNET]

Did you know that North Korea real name is the "Democratic People's Republic of Korea".

The longer a country's name is, the less likely it is to be true...

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Captain Splendid]

Oh right ... it translates to "socialist".

Both Hitler and yourself can keep calling him and the nazi party socialist all you want, but it doesn't change the fact that the country was run pretty much as a Totalitarian regime focused on unilateral warfare, hyper-patriotism and strong law & order credentials, which is about as far from socialism as you can get.

Thanks for playing!

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[the_other_chewey]

Germany serves as a reminder of what will happen to a country if you vote far-left too long.

Uhhh... what?

The head of state (and the chancellor) are from what is considered the center right. Far-left parties
never were in power. And last I checked, Germany was doing a lot better in this financial meltdown than
the US (which doesn't mean they are doing incredibly well, just a lot better).

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[flnca]

He wants to hire a 6th. He'll never hire someone whom he dislikes because of race, so why not allow him to write that down?

Because that would be very popular among his racist buddies, and then, bam! Nazi Germany once more. In fact, in the former GDR regions, companies of racists do already exist, and they spread like wildfire in some regions. This must be stopped as soon as possible. But I guess, they are already under surveillance by the Constitution Protection. We don't want a second Nazi Germany. And you neither, I guess.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[DiniZuli]

I'm from Denmark.
Compared to many people from USA (not all), the majority of people in Denmark are "socialists" (again not everyone). All parties that we can vote for - even the ones we place on the far right on our own political scale, would belong among the democrats in USA. Nearly all political parties in Denmark, would be called leftish in USA. It has been like this for many many decades and I would say that we are doing pretty well, with our national health care system, common wealth, education, etc., etc. - I would even say we are doing better than USA. In Denmark, Nazis, racists and the like are almost always placed on the far right on the political scale.
Hitler, Stalin, Lenin, Mao and others like them, might have SAID that they were socialists and making leftish policies. But they weren't/didn't. They were not anywhere near it. They would like people to think so - and I can see they even got to some of you too. A shame.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[rtb61]

You are obviously terribly confused. A political party is defined by it's actions not by the labels it chooses to advertise under. So the German Nazi party was far right, as private corporations functioned and profited during that whole period. All the arms manufacturers were private none of them where nationalised, citizens retained private ownership of resources and assets (at least the single group approved of by the party).

As for any associations with the intelligentsia, I see you have failed to hear of junk science, people who basically will trade upon their qualifications and say or write what ever they are paid to say or write. Technically Bill Ayers in his youth put forward his own opinions and with the impatience of youth expressed them in a questionable manner, behaviour which he had long since matured out of.

Now as for the whole gamut of right and left political bias, technically in a global sense the US does not have a leading left wing political party as the democrats and centre right and the republicans are far right, to see actual centre left political parties in action running countries you have to look overseas, Canada, Australia, England, etc. The outer edges of right and left politics has always demonstrated itself to be destructive, a grand deceit based upon propaganda and lies to empower and enrich a minority at the expense of the majority, from Hitler and Stalin, to Bush and Cheney, some of course are far more destructive than others but they have all been equally self serving and, any limits upon their actions have been forced upon them by outside influences rather than their own consciences.

A good indication of how centre a party is defined by it's willingness and hence the politicians of the parties willingness to be open to criticism, open to questions and open to ideas and not resorting to censorship to protect the facade they have created to hide their true nature.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Anonymous Coward]

What you say starts in two places: with the income tax system and with education. With the income tax system because not everyone pays the same percentage, which is a disincentive to work harder and advance. Many people work just less than 40 hours per week because if they work the full 40 hours, their take-home pay will actually be less than if they work 35 hours. So what kind of idiot would work the full 40 hours? And because the income tax system contains lots of loopholes, deductions, and other things which provide politicians with lots of levers and buttons they can push to buy the votes of one group over another. Yes, the income tax system is a vote-buying machine. Politicians promise to raise taxes on "rich" people (a couple who both work in order to make ends meet often fall into the unspoken definition of "rich") while lowering them on the "poor" means that you're buying the votes of a larger group, which is jealous of the smaller group. Education, because it is easy to mold young minds into thinking certain things. Thus, most of America's youth know nothing about how the USSR worked or how any of the fascist or communist countries treated their people. It is, therefore, easy with the combination of education and the income tax system, to convince people that certain leftist ideas should be put into action, even though these ideas are some of the dictator's oldest tricks in the book.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[jellomizer]

Fix the problem by not talking about it, yea that works.
By making racist speech illegal all it does is hide all the racist people in society, they are still racist still finding their racist niches, and still can be dangerous. All it does is trying to force people to ignore the problem then actually confronting it.
Hey if you know the guy is a racist then you have a decision to associate yourself with him or not and accept the consequences for the actions. But if you don't you can much easier be seduced.

Also it creates a taboo with the hate just gets deferred somewhere else.
Ok Color of the skin is out, as well as religion. However you can still get people with disabilities, or education, smarts, choice in dress, types of music you listen to, the Operating Systems you prefer to use at home, what text editor you use.....
Silence doesn't fix the problem it defers it.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[ozbird]

The longer a country's name is, the less likely it is to be true...

"United States of America" - hmm, I think you're on to something.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[dcollins]

Have you noticed, in the US in the last 8 years: (1) inability to protect us from terrorist attack, (2) war against the wrong country, (3) inability to win that war, (4) new torture centers, (5) widespread spying on our own people, (6) corruption of our agencies dedicated to science and oversight, (7) corruption of agencies trying to protect us from disastrous hurricanes et. al., (8) infiltration of religious principles into our government, (9) commencement of holding people in prison forever without a trial, (10) destruction of our financial system?

To me, this looked like the very first election that was actually about policies instead of personalities in my ~40 years in the US. Note that Democrats (Obama's party) also won many Congressional and Senate seats across the board, so it's clearly not just about one person's personality.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

In this case, it's even better than the Streisand effect. Consider, if somebody accuses you of being a creepy authoritarian prick, censoring him is, perhaps, not the most effective of rebuttals.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[ScrewMaster]

The longer a country's name is, the less likely it is to be true...

"United States of America" - hmm, I think you're on to something.

No, it's not the length of a country's name that matters at all. If you want to get a better idea of a particular nation's governmental system, look for the keywords "democratic" and "republic". The United States of America has neither of those words in its name ... although it is both of them.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Brian Gordon]

Also remember that while personal sacrifice for The Party occurs in a socialist context, Marxism is supposed to be about bringing the wealth to the people. It just didn't really work out in practice.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[MrMista_B]

Someone who's 'far-right', anywhere else in the world, in America would be considered 'moderate' or 'left-leaning'.

Think about that for a few moments, and realise what that means.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[alzoron]

What you just described is already taken care of with laws against inciting riots. Why do we need more laws covering the same thing? It's like having a law against apples, and another law against red apples.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[aproposofwhat]

Sorry, but you're almost entirely wrong.

Nazionalsozialismus translates to 'National Socialism', but in fact it was a form of corporatism, in which industry was used as a tool of the state - not nationalised, but incoroporated deeply into the state itself.

Something similar is happening in Britain, as the 'third way' morphs into the Fourth Reich - the ties between state and industry are becoming closer, and the will of the Neues Arbeit elite is expressed through the actions of private industry.

You're talking nonsense - please don't bother.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[sumdumass]

So lets say I'm well off financially and we become a leftist socialist state. No one is going to take my money to give to those less fortunate then me? I can keep all my money, make as much as I want without fear of the government threatening my freedoms with guns and people carrying them? Or is it a situation where it will happened to everyone but me? How about you?

No, capitalism can only be imposed by force of threat of poverty, which to me, is much more insidious. Money (wealth) is a weapon, too.

You have swallowed too much koolaid and don't seem to have any desires left within you. If you refuse to work for yourself or provide for your family, then why do you deserve money or food from anyone else? Even in a socialist state, you would be required to work and given to by an accounting of what your worth to the over all contribution you make. You would still be poor and in poverty- but I guess you would feel good about it or something right?

The benefits of capitalism is that it allows you a way out. It allows you to apply yourself and better your situation. It isn't always possible until you see the possibilities and you can make things worse by making the wrong decisions. It isn't even always easy, You have to apply yourself but the opportunity is there. Where is the opportunity in a socialist state? If you work harder then everyone else beside you, where or how do you benefit? Does someone magically reward you for doing a better job and give you more then them? Oh wait, that would be a capitalist value.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[m.ducharme]

You totally forgot to mention that Hitler was backed by corporations and some aristocracy before he took over, and in bed with Corporate Germany during/after the war. You think that just because he called his party the "National Socialist" Party that he really meant it? Have you forgotten he was the greatest propagandist of his era?

He didn't nationalize large industries in Germany, he printed piles of money to pay the corporations for their work on his war, and made their owners filthy rich (until the currency collapsed, of course, doesn't this sound familiar to you?). A lot of those corporations still exist, in some form or other, but they keep that part of their corporate history quiet, you can be sure. This is totally opposite to Stalin and the Communists, who simply took over the corporations and executed the owners.

Fascism =/= Socialism, sorry, you need to go get some education in that regard. Fascism == Authoritarianism, and Communism == Authoritarianism, but guess what, socialism doesn't automatically equal authoritarianism (unless you've been brainwashed by the current champion propagandists in the US, that is). As hard as it is to believe, you can have a socialist, liberal government. Of course, in these troubled times, when all nations are leaning hard to the authoritarian side, thanks to Mr. Bush and his advisors, Tony Blair, John Howard, etc, examples are hard to come by.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Miseph]

Oh woe is you, unable to make infinite amounts of money and not give anything back. How about this, you do that without any public roads, any public education 9including for anyone in your employ, directly or otherwise, without publicly funded police and fire fighters protecting you, without a national military keeping your economic interests safe from interference, and without the benefit of any sort of regulations or laws to protect you while you sit on your enomous pile of money you have out in the woods with nobody else around, and you can stop paying taxes.

In the mean time, quit pretending like not having any taxes at all would work, or that you are so oppressed by having to contribute a portion of what you earn to the community in order to retain the benefits of being a part of it. You aren't the only person who counts, and if you're too much of a greedy shithead to accept the idea that, say, everyone deserves medical care when they are sick or injured, even if you don't get to keep every last cent you make, then I don't see why the impetus should be on the rest of us to explain why you're a total douchebag.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Frozentech]

That's because the term Fascist has become utterly misused in the United States. It pretty much has devolved to mean "bully", rather than a political-economic system.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[kaos07]

No, Communism doesn't equal authoritarianism, especially in the same sense as fascism. How could an ideology seeking to take power away from the rich minority and give it the majority, as well as calling for the dissolution of the State itself be considered "authoritarian"?

"Socialism" could be authoritarian or not, depending on the flavour. There are literally dozens of different types of socialism. Some anarchic, some authoritarian. And some in the middle.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[narcberry]

I keep telling that to all these dumb chicks at work. If they want me to stop talking about their perky little bits, they should come into my office and *confront* me.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[wisty]

That's right. The US may be right wing (oppressive) on civil rights, but the government is very left wing with it's big spending. Especially the Republicans, who spend like drunken sailors, leaving a big mess for the Democrats to clean up. But yeah, you just get dumber every time someone says the word "left" or "right" in a political debate. It means that they see the world in terms of pro-socialist or anti-socialist, which is flat out irrelevant these days.

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[Cassius Corodes]

I don't know how someone would not know this unless they have never worked...

Re:Mr. Heilmann, you should talk to Mrs. Streisand

[flnca]

That's an interesting question. If a country will, in a true democratic fashion, slip into rampant nationalism, and then racism (while still remaining democratic)

That's exactly how the Nazis came to power in the first place. They were democratically elected in the Weimar Republic.

would you say that "democracy failed" and that a coup is needed, followed by a period of dictatorial rule to make sure that the Nazis are rooted out?

Of course not, we have the Constitution Protection and our laws for that. This makes sure Nazi influence stays limited.

So what's the problem?

[Tubal-Cain]

forbidding the forwarding of the popular http://wikipedia.de/ to the proper http://de.wikipedia.org/

So what part of that is he claiming is illegal?

Re:So what's the problem?

[Anonymous Coward]

Anyone editing his page should be careful to sticking to the facts, else they just justify its removal as well as degrading the stature of Wikipedia. German news agencies should get a copy of the wiki at the time when Heilmann complained and check all the info on it, then report on it noting the parts he specifically complained on including the findings of their own research. It wouldn't hurt for academia and the general public to join in on this as is their duty as citizens.

It needs to be made clear to politicians and bureaucrats everywhere that their very positions permit or even demand microscopic public inspection of their actions. If they are going to act to ban negative comments on themselves then the comments need to be at a minimum unprovable as facts or better yet provably false. If comments are found to be provably true then the response to the government official(s) involved should be harsh.

How can this happen?

[thetoadwarrior]

If it's true then what judge in their right mind would block a site for telling the truth?

Germany does not have enough respect for freedom

[Anonymous Coward]

of speech.

That's obvious with their thought crime laws. It's at the other extreme of the political spectrum than in the 3rd reich, but still tyrannical, and modeled after the belief that the state knows best. Much of the world is actually this way.

I wish instead of an english pariliament system after the war, they introduced more the American concept of freedom there after WW2 with a bill of right blocking off the government from intruding in certain areas. A clear deliniation where you can tell the government to stuff it, that they are not the gods of destiny.

I say this as a German eyeing the EU in brussels wearily, as they churn out law after law while having no directly elected representation. They know want to ban funny shaped fruit and vegetables from the supermarket. Idiotic bureacrats.

All doubts are gone

[Charles Dodgeson]

People may have doubted whether a former DDR Stasi employee would reform or continue with old ways of treating the public. Now all questions about this particular thug have evaporated.

FAIL!

[Chris Snook]

If you don't want publicity associating you with the Stasi, this probably isn't the best method of challenging the accusation.

Not a good idea....

[jawtheshark]

If you really have a shady background, the internet will surface the truth. So, either you deny and have the consequences, or you admit your faults and people might start to respect you that you're an upstanding person.

Lutz Helimann, ex Stasi?

[blind biker]

I didn't know that. Now I do. And so do a few tens of thousand other people who would have not known, if he had not tried to have the German Wikipedia shut down.

In fact, I bet that most of the readers of the German Wikipedia didn't know that Lutz Heilmann was a Stasi, and now they do.

Who the fuck elected this crooked fully-employed ex-Stasi to the Bundestag, though?

Working for them is not an indiscression

[MikeRT]

You can't work for an agency like the Stasi and just apologize for it. To be forgiven, you must don sackcloth, repent and repudiate what you once stood for. If this politician hasn't repudiated everything--everything--the Stasi stood for, he should be hounded for life for having worked for them.

Re:Is Obama's past on wikipedia ?

[cbiltcliffe]

Obama got elected because right wing policies have killed the US over the last 8 years.
I agree with you that leftist policies suck when implemented poorly. Guess what? Right wing policies suck when implemented poorly, too.

I'm sick to death of all this partisan bullshit. "It's all the Democrats' fault!!" "No, it's all the Republicans' fault!!" Guess what, you blind morons? It's politicians' fault!

The problem is not left or right wing. The problem is politicians, as a rule, horribly suck at implementing good ideas properly. They'd much rather write legislation that bandaids symptoms rather than fixing the root cause of a problem.
They'd much rather take input from industry insiders who have a vested interest in a certain outcome, rather than looking at what's best for the country as a whole.

All of them.

Obama was elected. Suck it up and deal. You can vote him out again in four years.

Until then, fuck off.

Title is wrong.

[jcr]

Change "Politician" to "STASI snitch".

-jcr

Re:Is Obama's past on wikipedia ?

[lukas84]

Where was this talk when Bush was in office?

You should've known that left-wingers only think that their's a right to complain when something happens that doesn't agree with their view.

This problem is the same everywhere in the world.

Completely false summary

[br00tus]

That Heilmann worked for the German Democratic Republic's Ministry for State Security has been well known for a while, he is objecting to claims on Wikipedia that he was a pornographer and the like, which there is very little evidence of. Of course, the person summarizing this making bullshit up has a much better chance of getting people up in arms over it, lying always helps in mud-slinging since the point of mud-slinging is to throw as much mud as possible and see how many uninformed people will believe any stuck, debunking lies is mostly a waste of effort.

In terms of free speech in Europe this is very minor, people are jailed for analyses of Nazi treatment of Jews during World War II that don't follow a set pattern. If people are being sent to jail for writing in Europe, I don't see why closing down a press or web site is that big of a deal. From my understanding of things, many Nazis tended to be barbaric, so I would be skeptical of apologetic books on how nice concentration camps were, but I don't think people should be jailed for it, or the books and presses even shut down.

Re:What Rights?

[Meumeu]

And maybe that's why Europe and Asia has a long history of despotic strongmen. Order over freedom tends to get that for you.

Or maybe it's because Europe and Asia have a quite longer history than America...

Re:Is Obama's past on wikipedia ?

[AdonaiElohim]

Where's the 5000$ you promised ? The 5000$ that bought so many idiot votes, let's see it.

Again: The only American politician who has ever sent everyone a check in an attempt to buy idiots' votes was George W. Bush. Also, just in case you're curious, everything else you posted is wrong and stupid.

Re:What Rights?

[DesScorp]

"Fortunately, those of us in the U.S. are about to get rid of our despotic strongmen, along about January 20 of next year."

You realize that you just defeated your own argument, don't you? If you can vote them out, then are they despots? Despots don't tend to stand for things like free elections, and George Bush and his party have lost two in a row without sending the Army to void those elections. Just because you don't like the guy doesn't qualify him as a tyrant.

The loss was too big

[Nicolas MONNET]

There is not a perfect dichotomy between "perfectly free eletions" and "despotism." In the middle lies "tweaking results," "voter intimidation," "caging," "Diebold" and "The Supreme Court's Bush v Gore".

In the past two elections in the US, the margin was high enough to overrule the tweaking.