Apple DMCAs iPodHash Project

TRS-80 writes "Apple has sent a DMCA takedown notice to the IpodHash project, claiming it circumvents their FairPlay DRM scheme. Some background: Apple first added a hash to the iTunesDB file in 6th-gen iPods, but it was quickly reverse-engineered. They changed it with the release of iPhone 2.0 and a project was started to reverse the new hash, but wasn't successful yet. My guess is Apple used the same algorithm as FairPlay for the new hash, so Apple could use the DMCA to prevent competing apps like Songbird and Banshee from talking to iPods/iPhones. BTW, don't tell Apple, but the project uses a wiki, so the old page versions from before the takedown are still there."

Comments

All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[FictionPimp]

Just another reason not to buy the ipod/phone. Double if you are not using a mac.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[SoCalChris]

I have an older ipod that's been having problems lately. It freezes a lot, and absolutely sucks at playing audio books that didn't come from audible.com or itunes.

I'll be looking to replace it soon. Does anyone make an MP3 player that uses a dock connector like the ipod's, so that I can use it with some of the ipod accessories that I already have? For example, my car radio has an ipod connector that charges the ipod, and lets me control it with the radio controls. I'd like to keep that functionality, except with a different player.

If no one makes a player that uses the dock style connector, why not? Can you patent a connector so that no other devices can use it?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Change]

The Creative Zen Vision:M player used the same connector, but with a different pinout.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[jawtheshark]

You're locked in dude.... The iPod connector is, as far as I know, licensed to 3rd party accessories manufacturers. No way in hell, is Apple going to license it to a competitor.

And, yes, a connector can be patented without any problem. After all it is a physical device, where you can give schematics etc....

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Just what is the point of having ipod? Why can't the competitors to apple just sit down and devise a common method for syncing the device to a media player? Get amazon & other drm free media stores involved to also provide a standard interface to purchase and install the music into a media player, and you've got the makings of an apple killer.

I think there may be a more general rule for these situations. If you have an established proprietary leader, the only way to dislodge is for the competitors to come together create an open standard. I'm not sure if that's always the case, maybe its just my rose colored vision at work again, but its sometimes true. Feel free to discuss.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Chaos Incarnate]

Since the connector is a functional element and not a design one, they probably can patent it. Even if they can't, I can understand why a company would choose to roll their own connector rather than try to reverse-engineer all the functions of Apple's.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[compro01]

Sandisk's Sansa e200 series of players have a similar connector, though I've never tested to see if it is actually the same or not.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[tripdizzle]

These arent bad, I have owned one for 3 years with no problems: https://store.archos.com/product_info.php?id=66 Mounts just like a usb hard drive and you just copy your music to it. Works with windows and linux.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[JiffyPop]

It is the same plug, but the pinout is different. It was a few years ago when my wife wanted a music player, and someone had plugged in a Sansa to an iPod accessory on the demo table at Best Buy. Fried the screen on the Sansa if I remember right.

My memory is a bit fuzzy. Can someone else verify this?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Macthorpe]

Not quite what you're after, and MTP may not be truly open, but it is freely licensable by everyone and anyone. There's also support in Linux via libmtp.

Creative dumped their own protocol in favour of it, so it can't be that bad.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Well, that's good. I have an older creative zen extra, that only works in windows xp with a crazy driver. I didn't realise at the time of purchase that it didn't just work as a usb drive.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MikeBabcock]

Apple was very smart in creating their specific dock connector and then upselling it to other companies.

There's no reason a standard USB interface couldn't have been decided upon by various media players that allowed digital playback and user interface to be exposed in both directions, but instead we have the iPhone dock connector in cars and on stereos.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Beorytis]

...just sit down and devise... an apple killer.

Seems to me that although the technical details got them started, Apple's continued dominance has more to do with sexy industrial design and slick marketing aimed at nontechnical consumers. One thing that can be killed is the iPod trademark. Every time you use the word "iPod" as a common noun, you dilute the trademark a little more: I don't own an iPod.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

For my uses, that would be great, but I'm talking about something that would work as slickly as the ipod/itunes combo does. So your great aunt can just connect it and the new music will automagically appear on the device.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MasterOfMagic]

Buy a used iPod (not refurbished and not from Apple), run Rockbox on it, and don't purchase anything else from the iTunes Music Store. Apple doesn't make any money from you on that. That's how I've acquired 3 out of my 4 Apple products (the other was a gift).

If you want to avoid it on principle, I don't know of any competing player that uses the same dock standard, but even so, if you are rejecting on principle, do you want to encourage others to accept Apple's dock connector? As I recall, it is patented and has to be licensed from Apple - you don't want to encourage more people to pay licensing fees to Apple, do you?

3.5mm stereo minijack or stereo RCA all the way. No encryption, no DRM, just analog goodness. Sure you need an additional wire for power, but that's rarely a problem.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Threni]

I was going to get one of them, only Creative wasn't sure if it was discontinued or not. Also, it was much more expensive than the equivalent Apple product for the screen/storage size - the exact opposite to the situation when I bought my Zen Xtra all those years ago. Next time I'll make sure whatever I get can play flac/ogg etc but at the time the 80gig Apple had no sensible competition.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Yeah its a little of both. I've dealt with my non tech friends when they've bought a non apple music player and struggled to figure out how to load it with music (even though it was a simple usb type drive). I think if the ease of the experience was the same, people would gravitate towards the cheaper solution. The ipod dilution helps, it would also help to introduce more people to amazon's drm free music store. It works nicely and its even cheaper than itunes. It helps to ween them off apple little bit by bit.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[rootofevil]

pin density is one factor that certainly weighed on that decision.

how would you create video out from a USB port? the radio/headphone adapter? artist/song/albumart along with audio out for the dock devices?

in the early days, firewire+usb?

face it, without a specialized connector, none of that is possible. unless you make the ipod a host, in which case your battery life will suck and syncing with a computer will be an adventure.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[tayhimself]

This all sounds great and I use free software as much as possible (until recently anyway), but the ipod works really well. The integration with itunes, not managing your library, getting podcasts, etc isn't rocket science but it works as expected.
I am not an apple fan boy but I finally gave in and bought an ipod this year because I liked what my friends had, the others looked horrible and plasticy, and I love my macbook to death. Mine is mostly used for podcasts and npr.
Speaking of things working as expected let me share something cool. When you reduce the column width for the date/time column in nautilus it truncates whatever can't be displayed. On OSX it starts dropping the least significant bits of time off. Kinda neat.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

what are some real alternatives to the ipod/phone?
This isn't a troll - I'm seriously wondering. I have a Touch, and i'd replace it with something less restrictive, if I could find something that didn't look and behave like a cheap-ass taiwanese ripoff of a japanese product. I kind-of/sort-of looked at Zunes, but it doesn't seem to be any better WRT lock-in than apple's products, and i don't see the point in trading one manufacturer's DRM for another.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, technically buying a used ipod could make Apple money. Maybe the seller was selling the ipod in order to buy a new one. But even if not, it prevented someone else from buying it, thus perhaps forcing another potential buyer to buy a used one. Also, using an ipod regularly is free advertising for Apple, so that could cause potential sales.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

Problem is, no other manufacturer offers me a 160GB drive with good batterylife (40hrs+). Apple does.

And don't start the 'do you really need that?' talk. No, I only really need food. Offer me a player like that for good money (got my 160GB iPod for 250 euro) and you have a deal.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[xRizen]

iPod + Rockbox can play vorbis/flac.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Goaway]

You're not going to have much luck asking Slashdot that kind of thing. Most people around here thing a bullet-point feature list defines a device completely.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

And btw, it works excellent with Ubuntu and gtkpod (thanks to the writers of that app!), no problems of any kind, and I cross-use it with iTunes on Windows and OSX. It just works, in any OS.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Yeah. I don't support App£e, Micro$oft, MAFIAA or any other pro DRM suckers.

Neither should you. Money talks.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[maxume]

That's quite the fine line you walk.

I don't really buy it either, as I would guess that a lot of people who sell used Apple products are going to use the proceeds to buy new Apple products (so participating in the Apple market ends up making more dollars available to Apple).

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Plaid Phantom]

Or just get a Cowon. :D

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[EastCoastSurfer]

Even when you start to look at bullet-point features, the ipod wins in the area of plug-in accessories. The Nike+ feature is very cool and my running friends love using it. I have a stereo in the car that plugs into the dock and gives full ipod access + song art, etc...

Apple was smart here with the ipod and 3rd party accessories. The only one who might be able to challenge them is MS with the zune + xbox + computer combo.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[ubercam]

Yes the connector is exactly the same, but pinout is different. The connector is not patented by Apple, you can order them direct from Mouser (I forget the part number, but I have ordered one in the past). I found which one to order off of the Anything but iPod Forums. Besides, if they were patented by Apple, how would Sandisk be able to use it on their Sansa players without some exorbitant licensing fee? And you'd think for that price, iPod accessories would be compatible with Sansa players too.

DO NOT EVER plug iPod-branded/compatible anything into anything except an iPod. Worst case scenario, it will fry the other thing beyond repair.

Sandisk had/has a line of products specifically for Sansa players called "Made for Sansa" or something similar. I know that Futureshop (Canada) carries a small selection of stuff, but you can generally find extra cables or whatever on Amazon for next to nothing.

They are great players, especially with Rockbox (if you're lucky enough to have a v1 (doesn't work on v2's yet).

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[RDW]

'Problem is, no other manufacturer offered me a 160GB drive with good battery life (40hrs+). Apple used to.'

Fixed that for you.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

If i have the same Zen Xtra as you, (silver metal faceplate that pops off), I believe the latest firmware converts the player to MTP compatibility. Mine works with Amorok, but amarok doesnt really sync (at least i can't figure out how)

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[nabsltd]

That's completely a function of software, not hardware.

There are at least two (and probably more) apps that will do the same thing with the Archos as happens with an iPod...plug it in and everything just syncs up. There is nothing special about the Archos, so one of the apps that was written years before the hardware was sold, and it Just Works® because they had already thought about syncing your music to another (possibly removable) drive.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Simon Rowe]

Just another reason not to buy the ipod/phone. Double if you are not using a mac.

And don't forget to tell them, I've left the following feedback on www.apple.com:

I was given a nano when I left my last work place. I used it for a while but it is now gathering dust. Why? because you expect me to use iTunes to transfer songs to it. You've designed it so that I can't use my media manager of choice (amarok) on my OS of choice (Linux). I fail to see why people get so excited about your products, you just want to lock customers into your over-priced hardware and badly-executed software.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[poetmatt]

Yes, that was what he was referring to. It's called drag and drop. It's been around since windows XP and works on linux as well. It's also called "anything other than an ipod".

Convert her discs to mp3, drag and drop.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

It is the same plug, but the pinout is different. It was a few years ago when my wife wanted a music player, and someone had plugged in a Sansa to an iPod accessory on the demo table at Best Buy. Fried the screen on the Sansa if I remember right.

My memory is a bit fuzzy. Can someone else verify this?

Yes, ... my name is Chuck... I work at Best Buy. One hot summer day in 2005, some dufus walked in to my store and plugged in a Sansa to an iPod accessory on MY demo table. It fried the screen.
I remember it well. In fact, it came out of MY pay... I'm getting closer to tracking you down now that you've posted on Slashdot!

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

I guess you're right - i was hoping to have someone offer what he/she perceives as a real alternative, rather than the shit-for-brains typical answer, "just get rid of the iPod, and go with something else."
If I could find something that worked as well as iTunes and an iPod, I'd switch. I haven't been an Apple fanboi since the switch to the x86 architecture, so I couldn't care less who makes it.
I just want it to work without issue, and not make me manage my music/video/whatever by either jumping through hoops.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[uglyduckling]

Usually when that's happening it's just a loose hard drive connector, particularly with the 4th Gen (i.e. pre-Video) models. There's loads of tutorials on how to open and reseat the cable, just google.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

have you used one of the newer archos devices? the only ones I've messed about with were the ancient ones that looked like they were a portable hard drive enclosure. I'd forgotten about them, until your post. Some of their devices look pretty keen...

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[cayenne8]

"Problem is, no other manufacturer offers me a 160GB drive with good batterylife (40hrs+). Apple does."

Actually...Apple doesn't offer that either anymore. Their largest iPod classic now is only 120G.

I've wondered why they dropped down the size on the unit??

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I bought a car with a 3.5 mm line-in connector. Much more usefull than an Ipod connector.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[CompMD]

I have a 1st gen ipod nano and it works really well with Rockbox.

To completely avoid Apple, you could always get an Archos media player. They are fantastic. I rescued a JukeboxMulitmedia 20 from getting thrown out, as the former owner replaced it with an ipod. I think I got the better end of that deal...

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[jedidiah]

What's to "manage". You want something on a device, you put it there.

A modern USB device (other than an iPod) makes this an entirely abstract idea.

Stop screwing around with trying to make the device unecessarily
complicated and it become pretty trivial for anyone to write
something that will easily and effectively manage the thing.

Since Apple needs/wants DRM, the whole thing gets another level of unecessary complexity.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Yes.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Vireo]

3.5mm stereo minijack or stereo RCA all the way. No encryption, no DRM, just analog goodness. Sure you need an additional wire for power, but that's rarely a problem.

I use my old gen-4 iPod in my car exclusively. The funny part is that nowadays, it does not act as a player at all, only as a USB hard drive. My radio is the player, has a USB port, and read off the iPod. It's digital, it recharges the device, and completely bypasses the iTuneDB.

Of course I might as well use a USB key (and that's what I'll do when the iPod stops working), and I'm aware of the fact that this works as long as I don't need the player itself. However this shows that there often are alternatives to using analog signals or proprietary connectors.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[conejito_andarin]

Wow, I wonder if I will get labeled as "troll" for this ... I could not care less. Nor could >95% of the rest of the world.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Tintivilus]

3.5mm stereo minijack or stereo RCA all the way. No encryption, no DRM, just analog goodness. Sure you need an additional wire for power, but that's rarely a problem.

Don't forget line in, video out, and remote control. Maybe you like living in a cable nest, but most people would consider a single-wire/single-connector solution superior to a four+ port audio+video+power+control solution. Why else would anybody buy a laptop port replicator?

Sure a home or car stereo can just use USB Mass Storage connection to bypass the player's internal logic entirely, but what about accessories that are just dumb remote controls or repeaters? The Dock isn't just a physical & electrical spec, it's a published remote-control command set.

Are there even any other players on the market that support hard-wired remote control?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[JonathanBoyd]

It freezes a lot, and absolutely sucks at playing audio books that didn't come from audible.com or itunes.

Out of curiosity, what 'sucks' about playing audio books? If it's the iPod not remembering where you last played, you can enable that option in iTunes in the 'Options' tab of the track info box. That works with at least 3G iPods onwards, don't know about earlier ones.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

The first-generation iPod used a standard Firewire port.

The second-generation one used the dock connector to allow either Firewire or USB connections with just a cable swap.

Later generations have used the dock connector to bludgeon competitors out of the market and lock unfriendly peripheral manufacturers out.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Yvan256]

Uh-oh, your ass is toast, ubercam. Chuck has contacts in the CIA.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[boombaard]

I'd say go for Cowon's iAudio's.. they're quite attractive, and in about the same price range as Apple's "designs."

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[supernova_hq]

The creative players are a bit more expensive (I have the Zen:W), but you get a LOT more out of them. The components are more robust and you get a lot of stuff with them by default such as IR port (you still need a remote), standard av-out (cable included), wall-plugin charger (usb also works), FM receiver (uses headphones as antena). They also until recently had many more features such as calendars, photo slideshows, movie support, etc. And this was about 3 years ago!

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Ethanol-fueled]

You'd think that Apple are successful and hip enough to not try to shoehorn Quicktime installs with their crap bloatware, either. The tactic reeks of the golden era of adware.

But, to be fair, SUN is now trying to do the same thing with Yahoo toolbar in its JRE installs! Thank you guys, for pushing us towards free software.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[supernova_hq]

I have the Zen Vision:W and can confirm that amarok works. If you want to access the data section (movies and pictures), you can use gnomad2. The version in hardy would only list files (no folders), but the one in Intrepid allows creation, viewing and editing of folders.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Oqnet]

I guess it depends on your needs. I never needed my creative zen vision(not the M) to have a remote control. On that note the vision had a built in IR receiver to use a remote with, so you didn't need a dock to use a remote. It had 2 3.2mm jacks one for headphones and one for video out with RCA's. I never needed anything fancier than that, it hooked up to any tv that had RCA's. You do need 2 cables if you wanted to watch video and charge it at the same time, but I do believe that you could get a dock for it as well. It did charge via USB if you wanted. Why not add more ports to the damn iPod and let the user decide which one they would like to use?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[TheRaven64]

A standard USB connector doesn't have pins for composite video or analogue audio. The iPod dock connector has these, USB, FireWire (and includes power pins rated at closer to FireWire specification than USB, which means that they charge more slowly if you plug them in to USB), and a simple serial (RS-432, if I remember correctly, but I might be talking nonsense here) for cheap devices to control it without needing an expensive USB / FireWire controller chip. I don't know why more devices don't support the iPod dock connector. The socket is standard (you can buy them cheaply for hobby projects, and a few people have done so) and all of the signals it carries are also standard. The only proprietary bit is the mapping from pins to signal formats, and this was reverse-engineered within a few weeks of the first iPods with a dock connector being released.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[TheRaven64]

So, out of interest, do you have a custom version of rsync that handles merging changes to track metadata (MPEG-4 atoms and ID3 tags) on both ends? Specifically, making sure the play counts match (and ensuring that plays on either device are reflected) and ratings provided on either system are transferred correctly? If so, where do I download this program?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Indeed, Indeed I do! Who says posting on slashdot never pays off?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[jmorris42]

> Why can't the competitors to apple just sit down and devise a common
> method for syncing the device to a media player?

Oh they could. Now go get Ford to put it on one of their cars instead of an iPod dock. And there is the problem. Anybody with a brain could see that standardizing on a dock that Apple was quite explict in their intentions to keep closed was stupid. But iPod mania was irresistable and once one or two car makers installed the damned thing the war was over.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

i guess it's all right for you to individually pick and choose which of your 5000 songs you want to put onto your device, or which ones to play, but i'm not fond of that kind of bs - that's the sort of 'management' i want on a device. having a multimedia player have the complexity of a computer is retarded, even if it is simple.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

thanks - i'll take a look at them.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[JonathanBoyd]

There's no reason a standard USB interface couldn't have been decided upon by various media players that allowed digital playback and user interface to be exposed in both directions, but instead we have the iPhone dock connector in cars and on stereos.

Actually, a standard USB interface couldn't possibly provide such functionality because one end must be the host and the other the peer, but your suggestion requires that the media player be able to function as both (unless you're talking about having one USB interface for connecting to the computer, where the media player is the peer, and another interface for connecting devices to, where the media player is the host). Any USB interface which deviates from this practice is by definition non-standard.

Firewire would have worked though.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Yes. This may surprise you but, That's too complicated for some people to figure out. There is a class of people that are computer application literate, but not computer literate. In other words they can email ( just open up previously configured outlook) and web browse (open up browser, type 'google' in msn's search bar, hit search, type name of website desired in google, hit search, click on link) but not manipulate windows explorer to move files around. Crazy, I know.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[aztracker1]

I find that Winamp, Windows Media Player and even Amarok all are about as easy as iTunes is in terms of getting media to the device... What's funny is I tend to use winamp with an 8gb thumb drive for use in my car more often than my actual iPod. My car has an mp3/usb plug for the stereo, and using a regular thumb drive with winamp is easier imho than using my iPod. I don't like the iTunes interface myself.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[greg1104]

SanDisk Sansa Fuze. Fully geek buzzword compliant--they list Linux and Mac OS support right on the spec sheet (it just looks like a hard drive), and last month's firmware update added support for FLAC and OGG. Main downsides: no large capacity models available--limited to 8GB, although you can add capacity via SD expansion. And it can't match the iPod dock ubiquity in car stereos etc.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Dogtanian]

Problem is, no other manufacturer offers me a 160GB drive with good batterylife (40hrs+). Apple does.

Actually...Apple doesn't offer that either anymore. Their largest iPod classic now is only 120G. I've wondered why they dropped down the size on the unit??

So that when flash memory becomes cheap enough that it's feasible to base their largest models around, but not quite cheap enough that they can get (e.g.) 160GB instead of 80GB, the drop doesn't seem quite as bad?

"Yes, it's slightly smaller," people will rationalise, "but it's a minor difference considering the advantages of flash memory".

They *could* wait until flash memory got cheap enough that they could build 160GB models around it, but that might take some time, this way they get to meet in the middle.

Just an idea, and possibly nonsense. Who knows? (One possible problem being that flash memory is growing in capacity and dropping in price at the same phenomenal rate that hard drives were during the 1990s and early 2000s, so 80GB->160GB would happen in less than a year- i.e. one generation).

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Threni]

The 6th gen iPod hasn't been properly cracked so there's no rockbox for it.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[insllvn]

Check out Cowon, Archos, Creative, and SanDisk. I can personally vouch for the SanDisk Sansa e200 series (one of those replaced my iPod 5G, and I am much happier with it) and I have a friend who has a Creative Zen. It is a sturdy device, with an attractive interface. The Zen will take some getting used to for an iPod user, while the Sansa is closer. It replaces the touch wheel with a physical one in addition to buttons on the perimeter (simialr to one of the older iPod models). It really depends on what you use it for, but try and look for something not locked into a particular store that supports the Mass Transfer Protocol (MTP) which is the closest to an open standard you are likely to find.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[mrchaotica]

How does one drag and drop a fucking Smart Playlist, pray tell?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[prockcore]

Did it download the Intersect into your brain, Chuck?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[mrchaotica]

What's to "manage". You want something on a device, you put it there.

I want a Smart Playlist that syncs between the device and the computer. How do I do that without an iPod, Mr. Smartypants?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MooUK]

iRiver's H3xx series act as host to other standard devices, through a second mini-USB port.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Nursie]

Indeed. My friend plugged his brand new nano into my eeepc to charge.

Amarok fired up automatically, overwrote one of the hashed files and ate all his music. Amarok could still see it, but the iPod complained it was full and had no songs.

Thank god for that, really, it gave me a blessed few days of Australian road trip without having to listen to his godawful music collection.

But shame on apple for doing this, and shame on Amarok for overwriting files when reading the iPod contents.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Zordak]

Really, you need to use it as a generic noun. That means you would have to start calling OTHER mp3 players "iPods." For example, if you say "Check out these cool iPods that SanDisk makes," you would be using iPod as a generic. By the way, if you say that anywhere important, you are sure to draw a nasty letter from Apple's lawyers, as they guard their trademarks like they're the crown jewels. But ultimately, if enough people start using it that way, the TM is dead, despite all your best efforts. Just ask your buddies thermos, aspirin*, linoleum, and trampoline.

*Fun fact: Bayer also lost its trademark on "heroin" to genericization.

This, of course, is not legal advice, and although at least one court has said it's totally okay to do so (meaning, by way of fair warning, that it may be a Rule 11 violation to sue somebody for it in certain jurisdictions), I'm certainly not trying to genericize "iPod" or suggesting that you do so. iPod(R) is a registered trademark of Apple and the proper thing to say is "iPod portable music player."

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MooUK]

I need my media player to use standard audio connectors. Two minijacks are not exactly space-consuming, and neither are mini-USB connectors. Power being separate is fairly common and expected in most portable devices, and your device could also charge through USB.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

I have a 30GB 5th gen video iPod. It'll be my last. I HATE Apple but compromised a couple of years back to get my wife and I iPods. My mistake. Won't be doing that again in a hurry.

Apple has always been awful but lately they seem to have kicked the draconian DRM into overdrive.

And before another Apple fan starts screaming about how Fairplay is actually fair, no it's not. Any scheme that means an external company controls my content is unacceptable. Apple may be doing well right now but could fold at any time in the future.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[prockcore]

Hahah.. um, this article is specifically about Apple preventing applications like gtkpod from working on 6th gen iPods.

Buy a new ipod and you will NOT be able to use it under Ubuntu.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[the kostya]

In recent years they have stopped with the free stuff. All I got with my latest one was head phones and a USB charger. Wall charger and AV cables cost extra.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Dishevel]

I own an iPod. I own a Macbook. I listen to NPR. But I am Not an apple fanboy?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

Would you care to give at least one example of how DRM has negatively affected you as a consumer? I'm just curious, because everyone screams how bad it is without giving examples of why.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[sxpert]

yet !

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

cool - thank you!
someone please mod the previous post up/informative.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Jherek Carnelian]

Reverse engineered or not, it is still patented. So, you've got another 10 years or so before anyone can make legal use of that reverse engineering.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Goaway]

See?

Well, at least nobody's started talking about Ogg or FLAC yet.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[SoCalChris]

Many times, when you pause in the middle of an audio book (Only m4b files, this doesn't seem to affect mp3 files) that is over ~5 hours long, the ipod will act like it has reached the end of the file, and either continue with the next file in the play list, or return to the main menu if there are no other files left to play. It does this about half the time, requiring you to restart the audio book (Which fails about half the time, returning you to the main menu, so you have to renavigate through the menu structure again to attempt to restart the audio book, which once again has a good chance of failing to start playing again).

It's a real PITA when that happens, you have to manually scroll through the audio book once it finally restarts, and hope you remembered what time in the file you were at when it reset itself.

I've seen many people online with the same problem, but of course, no response from Apple (Or even an acknowledgment of a problem). My ipod is a gen 5.5, 80GB. I've seen people reporting the same problems with gen 4 and 5 ipods. I haven't seen anything regarding gen 6 ones, but the last time I looked they were pretty new.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

>>I am not an apple fan boy

Lets see...

others looked horrible and plasticy...
and I love my macbook to death
Something else from Apple which is completely unrelated to the topic is supercool...

Yep, you are not a fan boy at all. You are a super-douche apple fanboi.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[jrumney]

They don't need to sit down and devise it, MTP was standardized as a USB device class earlier this year, and is already supported by pretty much all of Apple's competitors, with support built in to all major OSes (stretching the definition of OS to include any libraries that gets pulled in by a GNU/Linux distribution if you install a media player capable of syncing with an MP3 device).

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Threni]

It's been out over a year. Most of them have probably broken by now!

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[CODiNE]

So I check out rockbox after reading your post. I find this in their FAQ

But I want a gap between my songs. Is there a way to turn off gapless?

No. As explained above, for all codecs which support gapless and for LAME-encoded MP3s, Rockbox plays back your songs the way they were intended by the mastering engineer to be heard. If the mastering engineer did not include a gap at the end of a file, Rockbox does not add one.

If the transition between tracks is too abrupt for your liking, you have two options. First, you can turn on the Crossfade feature so that songs fade smoothly into one another. Second, you can create a short file containing several seconds of silence and insert that file in your playlists or in the directories where you want a gap.

Wow... that takes me back to the comments on iTunes replacements and how open source projects treat the requests of end users. Fun.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

I've got plenty of examples to give you but here's just some:

- I bought the Battlefield 2 booster packs and despite trying for a few hours on separate days to try to get myself registered and running, I was unable to do so. The software installed but since I couldn't register I couldn't access any of the content. Fortunately the store I bought them from does take back faulty software so I was just out for the expense and frustration of trying to get it running.

- I've had numerous games refuse to run because I use drive imaging software (daemon tools). These games will not run even if the software is disabled. The drive imaging software must be completely removed. To do this legally the only practical way is to have a separate computer is required to play games.

- It is illegal for me to backup my disks. This means if I want to play a game on the train, I have to select it and find the CD before I go out for my morning commute. If I want to use my remote control flight sim it gets even sillier. I have to select which version since each has a separate fake usb r/c radio which also acts as a dongle - google Realflight. (To change minor versions for the R/C sim I must be net connected, and the company's servers must be working since they no longer offer offline patches).

- MS Flight Simulator X requires after the first 2 installs that you call Microsoft and beg for a new registration key.

- I don't buy DRM crippled music so I haven't been bitten there, but for DVD I have no choice and so if I want to watch a movie legally I'm forced to take an original disk , worth $30 on the train. Don't even get me strated. (Copying DVDs even for your own backups is illegal here). I don't even want to think what will happen to my DVD collection when my infant son starts wanting to use the DVD player.

Shall I go on? I have plenty more examples, but time typing them out isn't so plentiful.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Nursie]

Simple - install cdex, have it autorun on cd entry, set path to media player.

Here gran, plug in a cd, wait for the track list to appear, hit this button.

Job done.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Lemmy Caution]

I own an iPod, I own a MacBook, and I listen to NBR. And I criticize Apple all the time, I think they are nearly as bad as Microsoft - sometimes, in some ways, worse - and I dislike being trapped in a vendor's ecosystem.

I'm planning on getting an Android phone, rather than an iPhone. So yes, it is very possible to do all those things and be very far from being a fan boy.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Nursie]

What's a smart playlist and why the fuck should I care?

I put songs onto a media player.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Lemmy Caution]

Doesn't Songbird work with the Nano? It doesn't solve the main poster's problem, but it solves yours, doesn't it?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Jorophose]

You use a mini video port?

You can also have video over USB. It might take two USB ports (one for video, other for charging or other data) and it would be limited to 640x480 or around there, but it can be done. You could use FireWire, too; it's very fast, and having added firewire might have given the poor thing a chance at life.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Jorophose]

You could also use USB-On-the-Go, couldn't you?

(I know the Pandora does this)

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[FictionPimp]

I had an ipod shuffle. It died a good while back. I decided to just use my cell phone and a micro SD card and listen that way at work instead. Only I realized that I couldn't.

Half of my music collection was fairplay. So I had three choices.

1) Burn a few hundred songs to cd, then rerip and lose quality.
2) Buy every song again in a non DRM format.
3) Crack the DRM.

Guess which approach I took. I'm just lucky I had an old enough version of iTunes to do what I wanted to do.

Now I buy all my online music from amazon. It's cheap and there is no DRM.

In the video game world I can list at least a few dozen cases of where DRM has messed with me. From killing my CDrom drive, to refusing to run because I had tools supplied by microsoft installed, to being almost impossible to remove from my system, and even just refusing to play using the retail disk.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[rdoger6424]

I like making ringtones for my phone from music. Audacity doesn't work with .m4p.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[FictionPimp]

I just ran into that Sun problem this week. I was really pissed off that there was no easily noticeable notice that they were going to do that. I just installed the jre, opened firefox and there was a stupid toolbar.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

This isn't about me helping one person, its about what the experience would have to be like out of the box to challenge apple's dominance.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[nabsltd]

I only have the 504, and it looks somewhat like a portable drive enclosure with a screen.

I like it because I don't have to re-encode movies specifically for it. If I want to, I can just copy .avi files that contain my ripped DVDs...the only ones that won't work are the ones with DTS sound.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[poetmatt]

I think what myself and Nursie are basically saying is that Apple's dominance has nothing to do with conversionn or smoothness, it has more to do with brand name recognition at this point, and not the actual merits of the product (or lack thereof).

If it were about some kind of theoretical slickness then any company would be on equal footing and apple wouldn't dominate at all. As is, there are lots of other companies who do much better but people don't know about it and pay the apple premium, etc.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Zero__Kelvin]

Right! Just as I couldn't possibly use a client to log in to and control a server, and allow a server to control my client ... oh, ah ... never mind!

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm sorry. I meant to ask for examples of how Apple's inclusion of DRM negatively affects anyone. It's been probably four years now that I've heard people whining about Apple DRM, yet I haven't heard one compelling argument. Your video game argument probably has nothing to do with DRM, as your story seems to be the norm over the past 15 years of trying to play games on my PC. Even if it were DRM issues, they aren't relevant to iTunes. Somebody...anybody...give me ONE example of DRM being a problem with iTunes and iPods.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[mjwx]

Buy a used iPod (not refurbished and not from Apple), run Rockbox on it, and don't purchase anything else from the iTunes Music Store. Apple doesn't make any money from you on that. That's how I've acquired 3 out of my 4 Apple products (the other was a gift).

Or better yet, dont buy a used ipod, Buy a brand new cowon or Iriver, both have standard USB Mini ports (cable is A$5) and both support MSC so it doenst matter if you run Win, Linux or Mac so long as they can read and write to an ordinary flash disk.

Seriously, why go to all that trouble when you can get a brand new device that performs the same (if not better) for less and doesn't lock you in?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[GuyverDH]

Damnit... That's what I was going to post... =)

Gee - Apple charges more than any other vendor for something that's worth less than the K-Tel version of the product, and then proceeds to lock out anyone from doing what they want with *their* property...

Totally another reason not to buy any Apple product, as a boycott, until they open up their entire product line to 3rd party competition / clones.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Bill, Shooter of Bul]

Well, I guess Microosft was going for the same thing with zune. Haven't seen it in action, so I don't know if it works as easily. That takes me to the second part of my original post. I think they have to be open from end to end to really provide competition.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[poetmatt]

I agree :)

I actually got a creative zen vision, and I am very pleased. Plays anything and outputs to TV at a good resolution. However, 30GB = not enough (and the interface is a flaming turd in comparison to other MP3 makers). I'm going to do that drop-in 100GB hard drive trick soon, I think.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Kooty-Sentinel]

I own an iPhone, iPod, MacBook Pro.... but my servers run Linux and Desktop runs Windows. I'm not a Apple fanboy. Your entire kitchen may be built by Frigidare - does that make you an Frigidare fanboy?

There are some people in the world who choose practical functionality rather than that the "FOSS and Openness FTW!!!!" mentality. Windows for Games, Linux for Servers, and Macs for a Main Machine.

I know this may start a flamewar, but I have a feeling a lot of the iPod flaming comes from the fact that Linux doesn't support the iPod yet. I have yet to see anything come close to the iTunes & iPod combination, and I've owned players by iRiver, Sony and Archos.

Just my 0.02c.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Translation: I was apologist for DRM in general until I got totally crushed, so I pretended to be only talking about Apple DRM to move the target after almost no one was reading the thread.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

face it, without a specialized connector, none of that is possible.

I agree, but there was no need to make it closed and proprietary except greed.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Mista2]

Hate to tell you, but the ipod/phone is already a computer. It just happens to be built to play media.
All of the logic for a data transfer can be done over 2 or 4 wires, and can be done with imbedded chips, And a prom, use very low power cpu to handle the sync, or like the ipod, only synch when cabled and get power from the bus.
With something with the power of the iphone or any arm CPU, doing this over a net connection would be trivial. Hell, why not even just use an ethernet connection at one end a a custom mini connector at the other, then your protocol could be wireless too.

For synching though, what ipod/iTunes does really well is report back the songs/podcasts/movies you played and if they are part way through etc, however it's playlist management sucks.
This is the part that needs standardisation. Anyone can drop files into a device and have them play, the magic is managing them.
The basic playback and simplicity of iphones iPod interface is great though and much better than any other PDA media player I have used, but I would like to mark podcasts as keepers on the phone, I don't want to have to remember to go into itunes and change the rules for a subscription before I synch.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Zerth]

My car has a terabyte drive in the center console. I suppose if I had all FLAC, I could've filled it by now, but I'm fine with lesser standards in my car. Once I'm in the possession of 3-6 years of non-repeating audio, perhaps I'll have to worry about such complexities as choosing what to put on my player.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[mrchaotica]

A Smart Playlist (or an "Auto Playlist" in Windows Media Player) creates a list of songs that match specified metadata criteria. For example, you could make a playlist defined as "songs with genre=rock and BPM>80". And since the player allows you to access songs via these playlists, it allows you to arrange them in alternate multiple hierarchies.

In contrast, if all you have is a filesystem, then you can only access your music by filename, and only according to the single directory hierarchy. And that sucks hairy goat balls.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Your car stereo sees the SSID of your home AP and updates your media server before it shuts down?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Shakrai]

Yeah but does it have a shiny cover and is Steve Jobs going to tell me how badly I need one?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[tlhIngan]

have you used one of the newer archos devices? the only ones I've messed about with were the ancient ones that looked like they were a portable hard drive enclosure. I'd forgotten about them, until your post. Some of their devices look pretty keen...

Honestly, I've got the Archos, and they're feature rich, but quite annoying.

Firstly, the 5th gen (x05 models) are ad-laden. And apparently, the latest Archos 5/7 are even worse. Copy over an h.264 encoded file, or an MPEG file, and it'll say "Please buy the plugin - click BUY NOW!". (I have a 4th gen, and if you don't have the plugin, it just doesn't recognize the file). (h.264 is important to me - as is AAC - these are the next-gen formats, and even the lamest MP3 player can do AAC, but it's another $30 for the Archos). Or on the 5th gens, if you didn't buy the web browser ($20), it'll say if you click on the icon "You need the web plugin - click BUY NOW!". Ditto with the Recorder app - "You need the dock - BUY IT NOW!". Or plug in the USB cable, and you get "Charge your Archos faster - buy a dock - BUY NOW!" (at least this one you can disable that one so it doesn't show every time you plug it into a computer).

The 5/7's are worse, since the menu invites you to try all the options, with good portions of them requiring payment for it to work.

As for openness, they are not the sign of openness. Sure the Archos runs Linux, and they do provide the source, but you can't load your own firmware (it's signed - a la TiVo), and last I tried, I couldn't build it.

Minor hacking is allowed due to a system() exploit, but firmware changes may have eliminated that backdoor.

Oh yeah, the hardware's cheaply made - nice LCD display, but make sure you buy it from a store with a good return policy because there will almost always be a dead pixel or three on the screen (you need 5 before Archos will accept a return). Nothing nicer than looking at a movie with a bright white spot on the screen.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

I'm sorry. I meant to ask for examples of how Apple's inclusion of DRM negatively affects anyone. It's been probably four years now that I've heard people whining about Apple DRM, yet I haven't heard one compelling argument.

That's probably because you've got your hands over your ears and are yelling "lalalala!" at the top of your lungs.

Your video game argument probably has nothing to do with DRM, as your story seems to be the norm over the past 15 years of trying to play games on my PC.

Nothing to do with DRM? You've just moved in my mind from "possible sincere question" to "biased irrational troll who I shouldn't waste too much time on since he'll counter argue till I go blue".

If you had your way this would be the norm in music as well.

Even if it were DRM issues, they aren't relevant to iTunes. Somebody...anybody...give me ONE example of DRM being a problem with iTunes and iPods.

What? You're incapable of seeing that it's a slippery slope. You've just admitted that DRM has practically RUINED PC gaming. You want it to ruin your ability to listen to music too?? Are you insane or obtuse???

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

aimed at nontechnical consumers

For god's sake, please stop associating good interface design with nontechnical users. There are plenty of very competent technical users out there that prefer a well designed interface because it makes things easier.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[shutdown -p now]

If you don't need iTMS, there are plenty of iTunes-like players out there that provide similar syncing capabilities for any hardware that mounts as an USB drive. For Windows, my personal recommendation is the free J.River Media Jukebox. On Linux, just use whatever is installed by default in your distro (Rhythmbox, JuK, Amarok) - they can all do that. If you still want a good lightweight Linux alternative, try Quod Libet.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Syncing!!!??? It's called "Drag and Drop". You copy the UN DRM'D files to the memory stick/device/Chinese knockoff, and simply PLAY it. They don't HAVE to "Sit Down" and "Devise" a common method. It already exists.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[aetherworld]

I do own several Macs as well as an iPod, an iPod shuffle and an iPhone. Doing a lot of graphics design work, there wasn't really a big choice of good operating system for the task.

Stories like this, however, make me less and less fond of Apple.

I seriously don't understand why it hurts them to have competing software (!) out there which brings their devices to a greater number (!) of people (i.e. Linux users).

Personally I'm fine with iTunes (I rarely use it though, I play my music over a Squeezebox) and it's not too bad on OS X (it's terrible on Windows though). If there were better or more lightweight alternatives (like Amarok), I'd use them and still buy Apple products.

Bottom line: I can understand why they want to control the user experience for their customers. But I don't understand why they want to restrict the small community of power users to that user experience as well. It's not like I'd call Apple support if my Amarok stopped syncing my iPod...

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Confuzzled]

Only on slashdot will people suggest that Apple PISS OFF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE by changing the connector that is standard on many cars, stereos, etc. etc.

Only on slashdot will nerds vehemently maintain that sending video over USB (software decoding, etc.) is "better" than pinout to composite video.

If you have ever had to work with USB devices from different manufacturers, you'd know how lose the spec is and how much companies suck at developing these things.

Dock connector is here to stay, move along.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[supernova_hq]

Ok, point taken, but you still get the convenience of having standard adapter ports. iPods don't have USB, standard DC plugs, AV-Out, a Compact Flash reader, did I mention a replaceable battery?. The cables are pretty cheap, and it is nice to be able to use the same connections for all your devices. Not to mention being able to get replacement parts anywheres, including Europe, Asia, Japan, etc.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Screw apple. I'm buying NOTHING of theirs.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Why can't the competitors to apple just sit down and devise a common method for syncing the device to a media player?

Because they already have this great way, that works with every OS and every application. It's not even limited to media players.

It's called "USB Mass Storage". It simply makes the device appear as a flash drive with a FAT32 filesystem. No special tricks required.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[giuda]

I have a cowon/iaudio i7 that plays Mp3, Flac, Ogg, wav, mpeg videos and more. I love it. Audio quality is awesome.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Serious Callers Only]

On Slashdot :

I think what myself and Nursie are basically saying is that Apple's dominance has nothing to do with conversionn or smoothness, it has more to do with brand name recognition at this point, and not the actual merits of the product (or lack thereof). If it were about some kind of theoretical slickness then any company would be on equal footing and apple wouldn't dominate at all. As is, there are lots of other companies who do much better but people don't know about it and pay the apple premium, etc.

Meanwhile, in the real world :

Hey, this iTunes software is really slick - to add music I just insert a CD, it has a store built in, and I can just plug my device in and everything is transferred automatically. Those iPods have great software, look great, and have loads of games available too. Looks like I'll be getting an iPod.

All this is available elsewhere in bits and pieces you can cobble together, and yet people seem to like iTunes.

While there are serious disadvantages to the iPod/iTunes system if you want to customise it, use it with another player, or use it on Linux, you shouldn't deny that it does work well together and was designed so that people don't have to 'install cdex, have it autorun on cd entry, set path...'. Most people don't want to do that, they just want it to work.

The success of iTunes has nothing to do with brand name recognition, and everything to do with being a good system that gets out of the way and manages music and gets it onto their devices with the minimum of fuss. I believe Apple should commit to an open standard for interchange, but I can see why the current system works for them, and for the majority of consumers.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Mattsson]

Most people prefer good design.
But a competent technical user might not have the same criteria for what a "well designed interface" is.

I, for instance, think a well designed media-player interface is one that simply shows me the file system in a directory browser and either let me choose a file to play, a directory structure to play or a playlist to play.

For me, a well designed media-device is one that has tactile control-buttons and has standard connectors.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Nursie]

Not if your music software handles these things, and your player can use the files it generates. There are already such combinations, though a standard would be good.

It's not that special.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Nursie]

Yes, until such time as they want to move their music to another machine, or put it on an external drive, or anything else that goes outside the "I organise everything" model that iTunes runs.

And getting it to play nicely in non-standard settings is something I've had to try and help non-techies with several times now. And it nearly had me stumped.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[allcar]

aimed at nontechnical consumers

For god's sake, please stop associating good interface design with nontechnical users. There are plenty of very competent technical users out there that prefer a well designed interface because it makes things easier.

The non-technical consumers are the ones who would not understand the DRM that is tying them to a single supplier. We all like a good interface, but not at that price.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[the kostya]

The Creative player I owned had a proprietary AV-Out, no replacable battery, no flash reader, the USB port was proprietary, and the DC plug may have been relatively non-proprietary but I never saw a universal adapter with the proper voltage or the exactly proper sized plug.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MasterOfMagic]

I have an Archos Jukebox Recorder 15 that I'm looking to get rid of. Notable features include:

• Standard NiMH AA batteries with a charger built into the player
• Standard USB port
• Player appears as a USB Mass Storage Device (even though it is only USB 1.1)
• Plays and records MP3 and has a microphone jack
• 15 GB capacity
• Has a line out and a headphone jack

It's not the most glamorous piece of tech in the word, but it gets the job done and quite effectively and avoids the problem of the iPod dock connector.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

I have the latest firmware on my 6th gen iPod and as I stated it works perfectly with gtkpod. Probably more because of the gtkpod writers than Apple, but it works fine nonetheless.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

True, but still you (and others) miss the point.

WHERE ARE THE OTHER MANUFACTURERS WITH BIGASS HDD DRIVE MP3PLAYERS? I'm sorry, but 80GB is peanuts. My music collection just barely fits on the 160GB iPod as it is, only because I recode to 128kb-ish MP3. I need space, and lots of it, and all the other luxuries Apple manages to stuff in a very portable formfactor.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

those are good things to know. I was poking through the manual for one of the archos devices (might've been the Archos 7 tablet), and while all of the manuals state that you can just mount the device as a hard drive, this particular manual mentioned that if you do it as such (as opposed to using WMP), all of your new media copied to the device may not be indexed. Argh. Is this something you've noticed?
regardless, thanks for the information - someone please mod parent up.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[ITJC68]

Isn't this the truth. I have a Sansa Fuze and it can do everything a nano can do and more and cost almost half the price. Sure it doesn't have all the extra addons on the market that IPOD has but if more people starting buying alternatives and purchasing those addons (docks and the like) you would start to see more of them in stores like Best Buy. Some people bash M$ but should also be bashing Apple for this crap. My 2 and half cents.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Mercano]

What's always confused me more is that while the Touch/iPhone has the largest screen, making them best for watching videos, the recon-named Classics are the ones that have hard drives, making them the best choice to store video. (Honestly, its the only way your going to fill 120 or 160 GB.)

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[geekoid]

So? His point is that people could use the female Connector side. I.E. make a plug the fits the patented male plug.

Since you can buy the cable from non Apple places right now, I don't think the licensing fee is as hefty as the manufacturers are whining about.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[ObiWanKenblowme]

Yes, until such time as they want to move their music to another machine, or put it on an external drive

The button labeled "change" next to "iTunes Music folder location" in the preferences nearly had you stumped??

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[b0bby]

I have several mp3 players. I have to say that while drag & drop sounds fine in theory, it's not so great in practice. I ripped 400+ cds, they're all in individual artist directories. In the Zune or iTunes software it's easy to manage playlists etc, because you're looking at a database generated picture of all your files and can easily sort them. Drag & dropping from multiple directories quickly becomes a pain if you're not just dumping your entire collection onto the device. I like to have full control, so I've been resistant to using these programs, but they really are better. I haven't ever bought from any of the online music stores, so all my music is drm-free mp3s - if a better solution comes along, I'm sure they'll be compatible.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[b0bby]

Now I buy all my online music from amazon. It's cheap and there is no DRM.

I don't think it's really cheap - in fact, I just ordered a cd from Amazon, because I could get a good used copy for $4.50 shipped, and they're charging $10 for the album download. This is a 10 year old album we're talking about. $5 for the download would have been worthwhile, but twice the used price, and exactly the same as the cost of the new cd shipped to my door is too much. I like that they're drm free, and I might use my Pepsi caps to try them out, but I'm not buying at those prices.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

Nice try but not quite. "I'm sorry" because I'm apologizing for not clearly stating my question in the first response. I don't really care about DRM in video games because I was questioning the impact of DRM as it applies to iPods and iTunes..except for the small fact that, although I was thinking it, I didn't actually voice it in my original post. I simply reframed the question to accurately represent what I was thinking. And while I may be yelling LALALALALA for fear of hearing the worst, nobody has yet posed a logical example of how it is bad as framed by my questions (as relating to iPods/iTunes). Certainly you can't complain about DRM on iPods, because it is irrelevant. iPods aren't affected by the DRM, only computers. The only thing I've heard that is remotely acceptable is the rare risk that one could lose all their music on their COMPUTER/iTunes list if Apple went out of business.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[poetmatt]

Just about every mp3 player in existence has some kind of interface to select folders or specific songs that can sort by artist with album art (if the art is set up in a way that the interface recognizes).

I've yet to ever see an mp3 player that doesn't have that even from 5+ years ago.

Hell, you can do that from winamp with absolutely ANY mp3 player period (even zune/ipod/creative/sandisk). Winamp can be your interface for doing so, and can even generate the playlists as it does so. Even a step above it, you can search for a keyword as title/artist/etc.

People don't realize alternatives, and the rest is to be expected.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

You were closer when you considered it a "possible sincere question". DRM didn't exist on video games 10 years ago, yet I always had problems with games properly installing. I'm just inferring that this guy might be chalking up everyday common computer issues as DRM issues. His examples aren't all 100% proof-positive they were caused by DRM. I also meant to say DRM is irrelevant in video games as they relate to ME personally. I don't play them anymore and was asking the question framed around iTunes/iPods. I just didn't word the question well and apologized for my lack of communication.

You've just admitted that DRM has practically RUINED PC gaming. You want it to ruin your ability to listen to music too?? Are you insane or obtuse???

Well "practically RUINED PC gaming" is a bit of a leap in logic, since I only offered to accept that flawed logic for the sake of discussion. I used the subjunctive "were" instead of "was" to make it clear that I don't believe it to be true. In anycase, my point is that DRM doesn't affect my ability to buy music from iTunes and put it on any number of iPods I want, because iPods don't use the DRM. It exists to prevent the track from playing on more than five personal computers.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[JonathanBoyd]

Weird. I can see how that would be somewhat off-putting. I suppose you could get round it by splitting each track in two, but it really shouldn't be necessary to have to go looking for workarounds.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[JonathanBoyd]

That is utterly irrelevant to USB. The functionality of devices or meaning of terms in networking has no bearing on hardware specifications.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[vigour]

I have a Creative Jukebox Zen Xtra (the 60Gb version). I bought it in Japan in 2004, for ~$100 cheaper than the 30Gb iPod at the time. It's a bit of a beast size-wise, but it still works, and when the battery started dying (6months ago) I bought a replacement for $15, and a 120 Gb 2.5" HD for 40 Euro. I now have a huge (in size and capacity) mp3 player for 60Euro so I'm a happy camper :).

The older HD mp3 players are big, but as long as you can get replacement batteries and HDs they'll never die on you....Well that is assuming nothing dies on it's mainboard, or you're not afraid to redo the power jack or headphone jack occasionally :)

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[FictionPimp]

It's cheap for me because I rarely want an entire album. Most of the time I'm looking for 2-3 songs at most. It also has the added benefit of voicing my support for DRM free formats.

Record companies do not see cd sales as support for DRM free. But they may ask why an osx user is buying songs from amazon and not itunes and realize it has to do with DRM. (Wishful thinking).

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[samwichse]

Um... Intercept?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Your case is the EXACT problem I see with Apple. You have the iPod, the steering wheel controls, the home dock/media player, the iphone with tunes and games, bought songs and videos from iTunes, etc....

You are HOOKED on Apple products and stuck with what ever they decide to give you or what ever they decide to license out. For some people that may not be a problem but to tie everything into one company scares me. You are basically going to buy another iPod just like Apple wants because you are already invested a lot of money into the whole experience.
I can understand a suite of products all working together providing a "seemless" experience but when all of these things (a lot of them) only work together because they are using ONE companies standards and that one company goes out of its way to make sure you only use their products for the best experience, you are stuck with it. I'll stick with the 3.5mm stereo jack plugged into the aux jack and my $40 4GB music player for my car. If it breaks, oh, well, I get another $40 player and repeat the process. I'll give up the steering wheel controls for that flexibility. I already use my Sirius that way so it is no big deal. When my cell phone breaks? I'll grab whatever I think I like at the time, there are no strings attached to make sure if it works with my car or my "music" system or with laptop or my downloaded videos.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[supernova_hq]

Just out of curiosity, which model was that?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[norminator]

I could understand where you're coming from if you were talking about video, but for music? 160,000,000 kB (1,280,000,000 kb) of storage at 128kb/s works out to 10 million seconds, which is almost 116 days of straight music 24 hours a day, every day, if you never listen to the same song twice. If you figure 3 minutes per song, it's nearly 56,000 songs, or over 4600 albums.

The funny thing is that I wouldn't think that people who brag bout their ginormous music collection would be able to stand listening to music at 128 kbps, since they're so into music and everything. I'm stuck in the logical paradox of how much you love music, yet you listen to it in really crappy quality, all the time.

Also, where did you find the time to rip 4600 CDs?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

You were closer when you considered it a "possible sincere question".

No I wasn't. You clearly only wanted to hear my concerns so you could dismiss them in an off hand manner.

DRM didn't exist on video games 10 years ago, yet I always had problems with games properly installing

What are you talking about? I have 5.25" floppy disks in Apple II format that have copy protection on them.

I'm just inferring that this guy might be chalking up everyday common computer issues as DRM issues

Yet I've given you plenty of examples of DRM getting in my way for software I've legitimately bought and you've dismissed them as "just the way it is".

His examples aren't all 100% proof-positive they were caused by DRM.

Regardless, there have been others giving examples of DRM causing problems that can't be put down to other things.

One guy responded to my post saying that he couldn't transfer his music to his phone (which plays mp3s) when his iPod broke. Therefore he had to go buy an iPod to get his fairplay music working (or circumvent the protection).

You simply refuse to accept that DRM is causing problems.

I also meant to say DRM is irrelevant in video games as they relate to ME personally. I don't play them anymore and was asking the question framed around iTunes/iPods. I just didn't word the question well and apologized for my lack of communication. ...and I don't buy DRM laden music so I don't have examples where that's bitten me. Others have given examples. You've also refused to even acknowledge let alone respond to what I've said regarding DRM being a slippery slope and that just because computer game DRM doesn't affect you today, it doesn't mean we should accept it, otherwise DRM will appear in some form that affects you.

Well "practically RUINED PC gaming" is a bit of a leap in logic, since I only offered to accept that flawed logic for the sake of discussion.

Make up your fucking mind you dishonest troll. Either you concede a point in an argument or you don't. Taking it back is bullshit, and shows that clearly you don't want an honest argument.

I used the subjunctive "were" instead of "was" to make it clear that I don't believe it to be true.

I've met your kind before on /. - couldn't have an honest logical discussion if your life depended on it. Moving goal posts (as AC says). Conceding a point then taking it back with some pedantic pretext that your grammar should have told me you weren't conceding the point. Refusing to acknowledge or respond to my strongest arguments and instead focusing on continual misdirection.

In anycase, my point is that DRM doesn't affect my ability to buy music from iTunes and put it on any number of iPods I want, because iPods don't use the DRM. It exists to prevent the track from playing on more than five personal computers.

Now that's just plain BULLSHIT.

- Fairplay encoded files only work on Apple portable music players (iPods) and PCs running Apple software.
- Apple doesn't license Fairplay to 3rd parties so other music players won't work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FairPlay

"iPods don't use the DRM" my arse! What do you think the files just magically unencrypt themselves on an iPod.

You're talking out of your backside.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Jherek Carnelian]

So? His point is that people could use the female Connector side. I.E. make a plug the fits the patented male plug.

Doh, both sides are patented.

Since you can buy the cable from non Apple places right now, I don't think the licensing fee is as hefty as the manufacturers are whining about.

I'm sure that if the cable is not marketed as being for use with an ipod - i.e. there are no signals that match the patented signal/pin combos, then it probably doesn't fall within the scope of the patent. But use it to connect to an ipod and now you're violating the patent.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Xabraxas]

The success of iTunes has nothing to do with brand name recognition

I beg to differ. The success of the iPod has a lot to do with brand recognition. You're living in a fantasy land if you think otherwise. Most people cannot even name another mp3 player. iPod has become synonymous with mp3 player in most people's minds. People view other brands as knock-offs if they even realize that other brands exist. If their kid kid says "daddy I want an iPod for Christmas" you can damn well be sure the kid isn't going to be happly unless there is an apple logo on the mp3 player they buy. The iPod has reached a mythical status in American culture and something has to be 10 times better to knock it off its pedestal. With the lock Apple has on the iTunes store and its already entrenched marketshare it is going to take a lot change the current landscape in mp3 players.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Here is your example
Your iPod breaks and you decide you want to buy a non Apple music player...
You want to use something other than iTunes to manage your music and video collections.
You want to listen to your music collection at a relatives house.
You want to stream you music or video collection to your phone or to a work location.
You have an Xbox/PSP/PS3/some other device and you want to stream your video or music to your entertainment center in your living room.
You have a CD player in your car and you want to burn a disc with 400 songs and take it with you.

Sure, if you have other Apple products and only other Apple products, the Apple DRM is "No problem".

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

You clearly only wanted to hear my concerns so you could dismiss them in an off hand manner.

Not true. I'm still very much interested in hearing examples of DRM gone wild as pertaining to iPods and iTunes.

What are you talking about? I have 5.25" floppy disks in Apple II format that have copy protection on them.

I can't find any definitive source, but the term DRM is a relatively new one, most likely spawned from the Digital Millenium Act. Sure it may be a euphemism for "copyright protection" but the oldest example of "DRM" I can find on the web is Digital River's Software Passport in 1997. I'm sure there's more, and I'm sure you'll tell me all about it.

Yet I've given you plenty of examples of DRM getting in my way for software I've legitimately bought and you've dismissed them as "just the way it is".

No, what you mean to say is that I've dismissed them as not being relevant to a question about how DRM affects iPods. And no, I haven't accepted anything being "just the way it is". That's why I am asking the question, so I can make an informed decision about it.

One guy responded to my post saying that he couldn't transfer his music to his phone (which plays mp3s) when his iPod broke. Therefore he had to go buy an iPod to get his fairplay music working (or circumvent the protection).

You simply refuse to accept that DRM is causing problems.

Halleluja, we have an answer. Ok, got it. There's one very bad aspect of DRM music..you have to buy an iPod to keep playing it. Got it. Next point. I'm not refusing anything. I simply didn't read that post correctly (if even at all..it was yesterday after all).

You've also refused to even acknowledge let alone respond to what I've said regarding DRM being a slippery slope and that just because computer game DRM doesn't affect you today, it doesn't mean we should accept it, otherwise DRM will appear in some form that affects you.

I'm not saying anything of the sort. I'm also not going to accept it is a slippery slope just because you say so. I'm not convinced. I could be wrong. This is why we should have a discussion about it, because imagine that, not everybody agrees with you (or me, for that matter). I'm simply saying that as of this moment, bringing examples of the negative effects of DRM on software to the discussion is not relevant to me, if at all. Sure it could be a slippery slope, but I prefer to leave those assumptions up to the more skeptical people of the world.

Either you concede a point in an argument or you don't. Taking it back is bullshit, and shows that clearly you don't want an honest argument.

Issues much? You are right. I don't seek an argument, I seek a discussion. I didn't take anything back. In my first post, I used the subjunctive case of if something "WERE" (as opposed to something "IS" or "WAS"). Subjunctive case infers that I don't accept it as truth, but for the sake of CONVERSATION and DISCUSSION, I'll entertain that logic, even though using the subjunctive case clearly indicates that I don't agree. So no, I'm not trolling or taking anything back. I'm rather consistent in my stance that examples of DRM in video game software do not apply to my question as framed.

I've met your kind before on /. - couldn't have an honest logical discussion if your life depended on it. Moving goal posts (as AC says). Conceding a point then taking it back with some pedantic pretext that your grammar should have told me you weren't conceding the point. Refusing to acknowledge or respond to my strongest arguments and instead focusing on continual misdirection.

I'm glad you can typecast me based on your weak grasp of English grammar.

Now that's just plain BULLSHIT.

- Fairplay encoded files only work on Apple portable music playe

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

Thanks for missing the point once again, so meticulously laid out in my first post in this thread. Why does it matter how I got those 6400CD's or what I exactly do with the iPod? I'm not going to buy any player with less than 160GB's, so if you want to sell to me, better make a player like that. Why is only Apple picking up on that (and at this time not any more, but I've heard that they may offer a 240GB option at some point)?

And, as for your comment on quality, it appears you really havn't kept up with avances in codec development and properly ABXing what you actually can hear (and, on top of that, the absence of any correlation between library size and quality of ears). I suggest you head over to hydrogenaudio.org and read from the best. I generally target a bit above 128kbits (VBR of course, which is pretty transparent for me) and I transcode that from my FLAC masters. Yeah, I'd really want to take those with me on my portable, if not for quality then for ease of use (an automatic backup), if it weren't for those cramped mediaplayers.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

My point with the iPods is that there is no restriction on what songs can play on any number of iPods. The DRM restriction is limited to the number of personal computers (and now I know, TYPE of MP3 player, as well), not iPods. The correct counter-point for you should be, "but if it isn't an iPod, then the song doesn't work", which is a great answer. I don't own anything other than a few iPods and two iPhones, so I've never even thought about that shortcoming.

Restricting the number of computers effectively restricts the number of iPods too. Unless you have magical computers that never require a total reinstall, or never break down. Also what happens when Apple goes out of business?

What you are actually saying is that you DON'T CARE about the restrictions that Apple Fairplay DRM places on you. That's fine. You can choose to buy it. Your choice. However that does not mean that there are no restrictions. It does not mean others do not care about them. It does not mean others shouldn't care about them. This is the equivalent of posting a bug and getting a response from the developer of "meh, works on my machine".

I didn't type cast you. You type cast yourself. You only care about your own limited situation. Well I have a different situation and so do many others, so suggesting that because you don't care about DRM, it's not a big deal for anyone is childish and stupid.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

Ok, so we are getting back to civility a bit. Let me address your concerns.

Restricting the number of computers effectively restricts the number of iPods too.

How so? I fail to follow your logic. You either don't own an iPod and don't use iTunes, or you just misunderstand the Apple Fairplay DRM. It is clearly stated that there is NO restriction on the number of iPods that DRM-laden songs can be played on. Do you really need me to cite that (hint: apple.com/iTunes) That means if you want to buy a song, you can give it to a million friends who have iPods, without playback restriction. What it does limit is the number of computers you can play it on, undoubtedly because computers can rapidly replicate and deliver content. You can authorize FIVE personal computers per DRM-laden track. This is why most people consider Fairplay to be one of the least evil...it is very transparent. Don't forget to de-authorize an old computer before you sell it though.

What you are actually saying is that you DON'T CARE about the restrictions that Apple Fairplay DRM places on you.

Well you are finally listening! You are right. What you failed to note is that I am openly soliciting feedback from people who most certainly DO have a problem with it, because I want to know what is so bad about it. Other than the inability to play music on other mp3 players (not to diminish that, because it is a glaring problem), all I get is, "DRM IS BAD!!!" without justification. Note: YOU jump to conclusions. Just because I don't care about my particular situation doesn't mean I don't care about others'. Hence the whole me asking for examples from other people. You blow me off as a troll, then make your own assumptions about what you think I say instead of what I'm actually saying.

Now you throw me the bone "what if Apple goes out of business"? Am I being trolled, or are you just hyper-cynical? If they do, I suppose I'll suck it up and start with a new media, just like I've done with 8-tracks to reel-to-reel, to vinyl, to cassettes to DVD to mp3... I'm fine with that, especially since I have no concern for the health of Apple, Inc.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[b0bby]

Yeah, but then you're not really doing drag & drop. And once you're not really using that, you can learn to use whatever works best; for an ipod that's usually itunes.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[poetmatt]

Uh who said it wasn't having to do with name recognition? We said it is nothing but name recognition lately. It could be a flaming turd at this point and people think it's so magically good that they'd buy it at a premium.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Lars T.]

I think what myself and Nursie are basically saying is that Apple's dominance has nothing to do with conversionn or smoothness, it has more to do with brand name recognition at this point, and not the actual merits of the product (or lack thereof).

Let me get this straight - you are actually claiming that the iPod became the most bought media player by far simply by "brand name recognition"? Where do you reckon that came from?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[the kostya]

It was a Zen Vision: M

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

But a competent technical user might not have the same criteria for what a "well designed interface" is.

But that is my point. Often they can be the same.

I, for instance, think a well designed media-player interface is one that simply shows me the file system in a directory browser and either let me choose a file to play, a directory structure to play or a playlist to play.

I've said this many times before. I've installed many different type of Linux, even on a Jornada 680. I know my way around an Apache httpd.conf file. But when it comes to managing my music collection, I can't see why I'd want to bother with files and folders as browsing them by DB using the metadata in the file makes so much more sense. I never have to create new folders for new artists or albums, I can use characters that aren't allowed in the file system, etc.

Why do you find browsing the file system so much better?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

I don't buy anything from the iTunes store, so how does this affect people like me? And there are many technical users who know exactly what DRM is but accept it when weighed up against other things -- they may not like it but might not go to the extent of boycotting them, either.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MikeBabcock]

As someone else pointed out, USB can do all of the things the Apple dock connector can do and more. There's plenty of bandwidth and standards already in place. Pin density isn't an issue at all in a serial interface, just look at SAS.

If you felt like being super-intelligent, you could give the music player dual mini USB jacks, for supplementary power on a second jack if necessary. My PSP, my Tomtom GPS and my camera all charge automatically off USB and are powered by it when plugged in as a USB device.

I've played with some nice USB devices that expose themselves as multiple simultaneous devices with two-way communication, its very possible.

Point being, Apple isn't interested in helping accessories or vehicles interoperate with other devices, they're interested in licensing their trademarks to hardware developers to support their now-ubiquitous device.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

How so? I fail to follow your logic.

Quelle suprise. I simply don't believe you.

You either don't own an iPod and don't use iTunes, or you just misunderstand the Apple Fairplay DRM

What's so hard to understand? You're allowed to put the music on so many computers. Once they die you have no way of transfering that music to a new iPod. It may take you 10 years or more to go through 5 computers, but you will do so. In other words you are renting the music (unless you circumvent the protection, which is illegal and some methods result in degraded quality). You're fine with paying for music again and again. Others aren't.

Well you are finally listening! You are right. What you failed to note is that I am openly soliciting feedback from people who most certainly DO have a problem with it, because I want to know what is so bad about it.

I was always listening. What you're actively doing is soliciting feedback (as vaguely as possible), and being dismissive of the concerns that are raised in the response because you don't care. That makes you a troll, and a douche.

Have a nice life. I'm done arguing with you. I simply don't believe you are looking for a fair and honest discussion. You're just looking to misinterpret people's responses in a way that validates and justifies your pre-conceived ideas. That's sad. Sadder still would be to continue to argue with that since you can't win a logical argument with someone who refuses to be logical.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Simon Rowe]

Doesn't Songbird work with the Nano? It doesn't solve the main poster's problem, but it solves yours, doesn't it?

Dunno, I don't use Songbird. I have found that the latest libgpod does support 3rd Gen nanos so I can get it working, no thanks to Apple. http://gtkpod.wikispaces.com/Supported+iPods

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[RDW]

There's already a 240Gb drive that would fit in the 160Gb Classic housing. Apple's justification/excuse for killing off the thicker model was that not many people were buying it (though if true, it's not clear if they didn't need the storage, didn't like the form factor, or didn't want to pay the rather steep asking price). It's likely that the capacity of the Classic will be dictated by the largest drive that will fit in the slimmer shell of the current 120Gb model, unless or until the hard drive iPods are killed off altogether. There is a market for very high capacity devices (I'm in it!), but it's obviously much smaller than the demand for more compact flash-based players that Apple and everyone else are concentrating on.

That said, Apple seem to have gone out of their way to make both the software (as in the subject of this thread) and the hardware as inaccessible as possible, blocking both interoperability and upgrades/repairs (has anyone tried to replace the 160Gb drive with a 240Gb?). See for example the 25 difficult and potentially damaging steps required just to get at the hard disk in a Classic:

http://www.ifixit.com/Guide/iPod/iPod-Classic/Hard-Drive/130/4/Page-1

Changing the battery is just as hard. Is it too much to ask for a user-upgradable pocket media player with no software lockdown and a decent interface, which can be opened up with a screwdriver..?

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

You're allowed to put the music on so many computers. Once they die you have no way of transfering that music to a new iPod. It may take you 10 years or more to go through 5 computers, but you will do so.

Nope. Sorry, but you are wrong. I'm not being dismissive, I'm just being factually correct. For the last time...you can play DRM songs purchased from iTunes on ANY NUMBER OF iPODs. You are limited to 5 computers. The error you are making is you are assuming that you can only PUT songs on 5 computers when that's not true. You can only PLAY songs on 5 computers, but you can put them on any number of computers you wish. So again, if your scenario WERE correct, I'd say that would be a bad thing, but it isn't, which kind of highlights the problem I have with cynical anti-DRM types on slashdot.

I've gone through 10 computers since the DRM has been around. You deauthorize your old computers and authorize the new one. It isn't that hard, and won't hardly affect anyone. Even if you forget to deauthorize one, you can always call Apple and have your iTunes reset to zero authorized machines and you can start over. It takes about 5 seconds to click the "OK" button, which is hardly intrusive as far as DRM goes.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Mattsson]

Why do you find browsing the file system so much better?

Can't put a finger on it.
Guess I'm simply a bit of a conservative oldtimer in regards to media-player interfaces.
Most of the media-players I've used has had directory-browser interfaces, so has most portable media-players I've had.
When software and players that used meta-data browsers started showing up, I really disliked those interfaces.
Nowadays, it's hard to find anything that uses directory-browsers, but I'm still more used to thinking of media-files as files in a directory structure than as a reference in a meta-data database.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

For the last time...you can play DRM songs purchased from iTunes on ANY NUMBER OF iPODs

For the last time: FUCK OFF TROLL.

I've gone through 10 computers since the DRM has been around.

In the short time Fairplay's been around you've gone through 10 computers??? No wonder you don't care about DRM. You've got money to burn.

. You are limited to 5 computers. The error you are making is you are assuming that you can only PUT songs on 5 computers when that's not true. You can only PLAY songs on 5 computers, but you can put them on any number of computers you wish.

You're saying you can copy the file to any number of computers. However to play OR TRANSFER them to iPod (or burn them), you have to have them authorised. Otherwise the entire scheme wouldn't prevent file sharing between users. People would just copy them to a friend's computer and never authorise the song on the computer, but the friend would transfer the file to their iPod and the whole scheme would only work to lock people to playing the file on an iPod.

What the fuck is the point of having the file sitting on your computer if you're neither authorised to play or transfer it??? It just takes up space until it's authorised.

Either YOU don't understand how this system works, or more likely, you're being dishonest in your representation of it.

You deauthorize your old computers and authorize the new one.

What happens if your old computer no longer boots? Or is stolen? Or you can't hook it up to the net to deauthorize anymore? I guess if you're ditching your old computer every 6-12 months as you've implied you are, you don't see many failures.

You just plain refuse to acknowledge that there's a problem with DRM. Repeatedly and against all logic. You've twisted the semantics and logic of the argument for the last fucking time. If you want to have dishonest asinine debates, I suggest you run for office.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

No see, you are name calling and making statements that aren't true because you really, really hate DRM.

What happens if your old computer no longer boots? Or is stolen? Or you can't hook it up to the net to deauthorize anymore?

You can deauthorize computers associated with your iTunes login on ANY computer, not just the ones that were authorized. Direct from the Apple help files:

Choose Store > View My Account, and then click Deauthorize All. If you donâ(TM)t see this option, itâ(TM)s because you donâ(TM)t have five authorized computers.

You can also call Apple. So yeah, I've had more than 10 computers in the past several years...big deal? That lends nothing to your credibility. Neither does calling me a troll when I'm not trolling. Here's a hint: if you disagree with somebody, especially when you have your facts wrong, the other guy isn't always trolling. There *might* just be one person right and the other wrong. You are simply wrong.

Let's try this one more time. Let's say all your doomsday scenarios come true. Your computer is stolen. You get a new computer, you fire up iTunes, you authorize iTunes. You then put your iTunes library on your 50 iPods and your friends 300 iPods. Ok, you get to your fifth computer and suddenly all five are stolen. You buy a new computer and it says, "You have already authorized five computers." Your options now are to deauthorize one of your five. Since you can't physically do that, you go to Choose Store > View My Account > Deauthorize All. It takes all of 25 seconds to do something that probably less than 5% of the populace will ever do.

In short, in NO scenario presented thus far will Fairplay DRM render anybody's music obsolete. More importantly, it doesn't mess with your computer or make life difficult when trying to setup and play songs. It is fair to say that two issues with Apple DRM is the inability to play songs on non-iPods, and the rare chance that Apple goes out of business (to which I say they'd disable the DRM before the closed up shop anyway). In a real world, we'd continue a conversation about the pros and cons and the tradeoffs that this model introduces and debate what is worth what. But you'll probably just call me a troll, and insinuate that I don't know anything because I have money to burn, or some other nonsense. Thanks for playing.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[syousef]

No see, you are name calling and making statements that aren't true because you really, really hate DRM.

OH I hate DRM alright, but that isn't why I'm calling you names. I'm calling you names because you waste my time by asking for input which you instantly dismiss, not just for yourself but implicitly on behalf of everyone. If you'd just said "I choose to live with DRM, despite the drawbacks" I could live with that. Instead you deny they exist. I also call you names because you're incapable of being honest in your discussions - you constantly change the target when I hit it, rely on sophistry and twisting semantics that doesn't stand up to logical rigor.

Your options now are to deauthorize one of your five. Since you can't physically do that, you go to Choose Store > View My Account > Deauthorize All. It takes all of 25 seconds to do something that probably less than 5% of the populace will ever do

FINALLY. Some actual information. Too bad it actually proves my point and not yours. You RELY on Apple each time you authorise or de-authorise a device. They can easily choose not to support "de-authorise all" for their own reasons at any time. Heck they could choose to remove their authorisation servers at any time (and other companies have done exactly that).

In a real world, we'd continue a conversation about the pros and cons and the tradeoffs that this model introduces and debate what is worth what. But you'll probably just call me a troll, and insinuate that I don't know anything because I have money to burn, or some other nonsense. Thanks for playing.

In the real world I'd have walked away long ago and you'd continue to buy and re-buy your music when you get bitten while justifying it to yourself, while I'd continue to stick with CDs.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[stewbacca]

Oh yeah? Well you're a dick.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Oh crap, I better start practicing missile command!

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

when it comes to managing my music collection, I can't see why I'd want to bother with files and folders as browsing them by DB using the metadata in the file makes so much more sense.

Portability. I keep songs in a usb thumb drive so that I can listen to it in different computers. I'm pretty much guaranteed that whatever computer I sit down to work with will have some form of media player that can handle mp3's, but I'm not guaranteed it will be the media player I use at home. Every computer can read a file system, though.

I most definitely think a music program should display your songs via metadata, but that doesn't mean it should need to "import" songs into its database or any such nonsense. This can happen internally, as a way of speeding up display of information, but it should always check against the filesystem for changes. It shouldn't manage your music in terms of handling files. It should just change the way the files are displayed to you.

Also, anytime you want to transfer music files from one place to another, it should never be handled by a special protocol, it should simply be a matter of transferring files. This way, I can have an iPod, not like iTunes, like Windows Media Player (ugh), and still have everything work. I don't need iTunes installed, I can just drag a folder into the right direction and the iPod should search that directory for changes (songs added or deleted).

Nothing wrong with your music software performing the sync, but if all that it's doing in the background is copying and moving files, instead of having to update a database on the device, that means that the user can choose their software of choice (or move some files manually, other via software, and have everything "just work").

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

You might have a point if what you suggested was in anyway popular, but it's not. Most people don't want to have a USB drive so that they can take their music to any computer and play it. They have it on their own computer and listen to it there, or they have a laptop, or they have a portable music player as well, that they can listen to anywhere, no computer required. I've seen a lot of complaints about the iPod, such as the lack or radio, but I've never before heard of someone who keeps there music on an external drive and takes it to a computer other than their own to listen to music. Now, if that's the perfect system for you, good for you, but why should Apple cater for every possible niche market?

As for importing music, why is that such a big deal? If I was ripping CDs and using the file/folder way, then that's an extra step, or at least no different, just like adding files to the DB is no different to copying them to a folder. Is dragging some new files into the folder in iTunes really that different to dragging them into a folder in the file system in terms of the number of steps required? One could even argue it was less clicks since you don't have to drill down to you're music folder, just fire up iTunes.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

Nope, I got 240GB music.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[coaxial]

You're right. It's only 120GB.

Oh wait. That wasn't what you're sarcastic comment was about? Oh silly me.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Lars T.]

Gee what an impolite little bugger you are - and wrong to boot. What a surprise. Your lack of arguments against Apple's DRM is staggering, so you have to make up things and stick to them long after you have been proven wrong.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Xabraxas]

I guess you didn't read the text I quoted or the parent post.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[bandmassa]

I've been a Mac fanboi (annoyingly so to some ;-) since 1985. They always were a superior product, always easier to use, always more reliable. My Mac and Doze usage hours are about equal, and I'm the "alpha geek" in my office, so I consider my position to be drawn from a more logical place than the usual fanboi's.

Then the iPod thing started. My first iPod (a mini 2nd gen) was a bitter disappointment, and will be my last. It's not cool and Apple-like. It's a lock-in more like a Windows product. Then comes iPhone, and new iPods with hashes, and Macs built in shitty asian factories with no quality control. Finally Apple drop Firewire from their entry level portable - the only Mac that meets my needs and my budget, no longer meets my main need.

I won't use Doze at home, ever. I may use some flavour of linux if I become desperate, but my next Mac will be a hackintosh. Apple have lost their most loyal fanboi. Steve Jobs was never the hero, who saved Apple, he's just another hippy/yuppie sell-out, bastard.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[jZnat]

The ubiquity of buggy media players that insert a gap between songs (including some that have an option for no gap between files but still inserts one anyway; I'm looking at you, Rhythmbox) is probably to blame for the fact that people want the gap in the first place.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[CODiNE]

There's a lot of songs in people's libraries that clash badly, mainly those that were intended to be gapless when followed by anything else. I think the simple solution is to play gapless when on album mode and play with a gap (user preference) when using random playback. Then both groups of people are happy and your ears get a chance to adjust between songs that weren't meant to be played back to back gapless.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Anonymous Coward]

Thanks for missing the point once again, so meticulously laid out in my first post in this thread.

Then I guess you missed my point... People who have 160GB of 128kbps mp3's are few and far between, mp3 player manufacturers aren't going to make an iPod for all 3 of them... And given the axing of the 160GB iPod in favor of the 120GB model, it would appear that Apple agrees, which is funny because once again you say you won't buy anything less than 160GB, which only Apple offers, even though they don't offer it anymore (just like everyone else doesn't offer it). Sure they have a 120GB model, but you won't buy less than 160GB.

As I said above, I could understand if you were talking about video, I would love to have 160GB for music and video. But I would guess that even with video, most of Apple's customers (and these customers are the people that make Apple money) don't see the value in 160GB, since (again) there is no longer a 160GB option.

You have FLAC masters for 160GB of 128 kbps MP3s? Wow, that's a lot of ripping and transcoding, and a lot of hard drive space for music. I underestimated how seriously you take your music. Seriously, I don't mean to criticize your listening tastes or habits, it's your own business, I'm just saying that manufacturers in general will make products that their customers in general will find useful, and if very few people are buying 160GB players, then nobody will make them, including Apple.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[BrentH]

Keeping FLAC masters isn't all that difficult, just make sure the tags are correct. The ripping (and tagging) is the hard part, that's why I like to share rips (I didn't rip them all myself thank god). The transcoding is easy, two clicks and just let my Q6600 chug along for 6hrs and all the FLAC's are available in mp3. Storage isn't alot either, a TB is 90 euro so what are we talking about? If they can sell such drives, why can't they sell such mp3players? The reason I say I want nothing less than 160GB is because that's the only size available that can hold my mp3's (actually, I've got about 130GB~ish right now, so with 30GB free I have some space to grow and a device to move large files if I need to). BTW I'd love to take those FLAC's with me if I could, but that's even more impossible right now. I know Apple didn't sell the 160GB very much and therefore axed it, but outside of Apple only Microsoft (which doesnt even sell here in Europe) gets over 100GB. The original point I made was that sadly Apple is (/was) the only one selling in this niche. So while there are good arguments against iPod's and Apple, I argued that there's not much choice in this segment, but that I'd gladly buy non-iPods from some other vendor with a player that compares to the iPod160.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[jedidiah]

...Yes, because choosing for yourself is just such a burden.

Anything that Apple can automate with their relatively
weak metadata, anyone else can with a less closed system.
There's nothing particularly interesting about a database,
a database query or the corresponding result set.

Unless you're fixated on lots of bi-directional changes a
simple piece of storage is adequate for most people.

Digital just shrinks down the size of media.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[MooUK]

Yup, I believe so.

Re:All the more reason not to buy an ipod/phone

[Omega996]

i would say it is somewhat burdensome to pick and choose one song at a time, as opposed to creating a list of songs to be dumped at once.

go fuck yourself with your condescending tone. I don't love iTunes - it's turned into a bloated pig of a program. But I don't embrace this neo-hippy outlook that we should all be running a full-blown operating system on a fucking music player, either, wherein i need to navigate a filesystem so that i can simply listen to music.

Not for long

[BrainInAJar]

By pointing out the older versions on Slashdot, odds are good that Apple will demand they purge the pages from the database.

Good job, timothy.

Re:Not for long

[Ethanol-fueled]

By pointing out the older versions on Slashdot, odds are good that Apple will demand they purge the pages from the database.

www.archive.org is your friend. As of now the alternate pages are still up.

Re:Not for long

[De Lemming]

By pointing out the older versions on Slashdot, enough geeks will duplicate those pages before Apple has a chance to take action. Remember the Streisand effect?

Re:Not for long

[Anonymous Coward]

No, odds are that apple won't even be able to submit the dmca to anyone since the wiki's host will be down before long.

Re:Not for long

[T3hD0gg]

Don't blame Timothy! He's just a little kid. He doesn't know any better!

Re:Not for long

[collinstocks]

Not long before they demand that the internet archive purge the pages, too.

Re:Not for long

[Draek]

In fact, can a helpful geek with the requisite wget-fu post the command we must use to fully mirror them on our PCs? thank you.

Re:Not for long

[Anonymous Coward]

Someone has already taken the initiative (from below).

Re:Not for long

[mjwx]

By pointing out the older versions on Slashdot, enough geeks will duplicate those pages before Apple has a chance to take action. Remember the Streisand effect?

Clearly you think that has an effect on Apple's internal operation. With the Reality Distortion Field at full power fanboys will continue to buy their products even if they were made from radioactive cow dung.

I not going to place any bets on who'll win out of the Streisand effect verses the RDF.

EU legislation in favour?

[Anonymous Coward]

I believe the EU legislation that's closest to the DMCA explicitly allows reverse engineering for the purpose of interoperability. Perhaps someone should just make a Swedish mirror? :)

Re:EU legislation in favour?

[kimvette]

The DMCA provides exclusions for interoperability as well. :)

Re:EU legislation in favour?

[Anonymous Coward]

The DMCA also protects reverse engineering for interoperability.

Re:EU legislation in favour?

[Brandano]

Hem the DMCA itself explicitly allows reverse engineering in order to allow interoperability. http://cyber.law.harvard.edu/openlaw/DVD/1201.html , paragraph f)

Re:EU legislation in favour?

[Anonymous Coward]

You european bastards are lucky.

Microsoft and Apple

[MasterOfMagic]

And how are Microsoft and Apple different again? Oh, one screws a larger group of people than the other? And that makes it okay why?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[nsayer]

And how are Microsoft and Apple different again?

Here'e a list:

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.
Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.
Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

How's that for starters?

And that makes it okay why?

Did anybody say it did?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Baorc]

Because they screw a larger group than the other...?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[MikeBabcock]

Because some geeks are more in love with Apple than with Microsoft.

Apple is pretty evil too in their business practices, and anyone who denies it is just as much of a fanboy as those who deny Microsoft has ever done anything wrong either.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a subtle difference between the approach taken by Apple as compared to Microsoft. Sort of like the difference between a womanizer and a rapist.

When Apple's customers get used, they are at least convinced it's what they wanted.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[blhack]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

How so? I have run windows xp and several different linuxes on my laptops and desktops, as well as having used Mac OS pretty extensively. Windows XP wins hands down every single time. What are you using your Mac for that makes it so superior to a windows machine?

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

Courts are now the deciders for quality of tech?

Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

Apple's monopoly power is also in the hardware-that-is-allowed-to-run-Mac-OSX department.

Microsofts policy is "Here, do whatever you want with this so long as you buy it".
Apple's policy is "We are licensing this to you. You have no rights to use it for anything other than what we explicitly declare and you better not fucking try to develop for it because we will sue you in to oblivion."

How, seriously, is Apple any better than anything else?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Cajun Hell]

And how are Microsoft and Apple different again?

Microsoft's lawyers are way lazier, that's the difference.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[abigor]

Can you properly define "evil" for the purposes of your comment?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[MasterOfMagic]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

Value judgment. I think that the Mac OS is much more secure and stable than Windows, but how do you judge the Zune against the iPod? There's no objective criterion there.

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

True, but irrelevant. They both engage in business tactics that screw their customers. If Apple were bigger, they'd probably get slapped around the same way Microsoft did.

Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

Again, true but irrelevant. They both engage in business tactics that screw their customers.

My argument is that they both smack around their customers. I'm wondering why geeks give one a pass while they rabidly fight the other.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

And how are Microsoft and Apple different again?

Here'e a list:

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.
Oh really.

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.
Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

How's that for starters?

So what.

And that makes it okay why?

Did anybody say it did?

Heard of that time when Microsoft locked down everything it had, fucked and censored its own fans and customers and had the most obnoxious followers on the planet?

That's right. You didn't.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[evilbessie]

Because one is shiny and the other is vista.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Do you sir, have a mirror?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Draek]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

Microsoft's PC peripheals are second to none but IBM, and that includes the poor excuse of a keyboard that comes with my Powerbook. And Apple may not make products in that area, but Visual Studio and Flight Simulator are also definitely at the top of their respective markets, so they do produce excellent products from time to time. I don't see how that excuses anything, though.

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

Legal, not moral difference. Unless you base your morality on law, which has some nasty (IMHO) consequences.

Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

And this is an action done to protect their monopoly in the portable music market, nothing to do with their OS. Unless you think there's an inherent difference to the markets themselves that makes an action OK in one, and unacceptable in the other?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[NuclearKangaroo]

We give Apple a pass because where Microsoft just screws us, Apple cuddles with us before it leaves.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

So what has Apple been convicted of in a federal court? Nothing you say?

I hardly think that Apple is just as bad as Microsoft, but you can discount the many open source projects to which they contribute if you wish.

I like Apple because I need very little training to use their products, and they take engineering and integration to an appropriate level. They do a good job with a lot of little interface behaviors that, to be quite frank, the open source community is not interested in (even though Shuttleworth has said he wants to move in that direction). A good example is the time column resizing behavior somebody has already mentioned.

If there is one thing that open source zealots do not understand, it is that open source doesn't matter. Vendor lock-in doesn't matter. The only things that matter are whether or not it works well and if it looks cool. Apple does both very well in my book. If they don't work for you, then that's your opinion.

Disclaimer: I love open source software, Linux, and puppies. I use and actually like a 5.5 gen 60 GB iPod Video; while I have Rockbox loaded on it, I think that the default iPod firmware was slightly better. I hate iTunes on Windows as it's huge and bulky (so Apple can just blame Windows and make OS X look that much better). I have used Macs before, although it took me an embarrassing long time to figure out how to launch Firefox instead of Safari (Guest account, no it wasn't in the dock, and it was the first time since the early early 90's that I had used a Mac OS).

I don't consider myself a fanboy, but if you do, good for you.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

> "I'm wondering why geeks give one a pass while they rabidly fight the other."

The 'ideal' business may never exist.
We are choosing the more composted and 'better' pile of shit (Apple), instead of the freshly produced, aromatic pile of bloody, fleshy and maggot infested shit (Microsoft).

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Wheely]

That sums it up nicely. This year I joined the Apple world with a macbook pro, a mac mini, an iPhone and Logic.

Maybe having been a Linux user for some ten years has spoilt me but OSX certainly doesnÂt seem stable to me. ItÂs bloody awful really. If Ardour and Rosegarden were anything like Logic (and I could get a version of East WestÂs gorgeous sampled intruments to work) I would seriously consider going back to Linux. I wonÂt be buying any more Apple stuff but that leaves Windows as my only option. Do I want to be raped or just used and discarded.

Tough choice.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[omnipresentbob]

but how do you judge the Zune against the iPod?

Feature set compared to price? (fyi, the zune costs less (at least, on newegg, they are. retail, I believe they're $5 more. However, the Zune has an fm radio, wireless sharing/multiplayer gaming, can connect to a wireless network, and can shop from the Zune store no wires attached. Both have a max of 120GB.)

UI? (The Zune's (artist/album/etc) list is a circular linked list, so if you're down at the bottom of the list (say, around Weird Al Yankovic) you can keep scrolling down to get back to the top of the list (say, around Anberlin). Also, while the zune has a touch sensitive scroller, it's not in an annoying circle form. Additionally, it has actual buttons that aren't part of the circle. Go buttons!)

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Constantine XVI]

And this is an action done to protect their monopoly in the portable music market, nothing to do with their OS

Not quite. This doesn't protect Apple's monopoly in the portable music player market. It's an attempt to extend that monopoly to the sync software for their music players, and to some extent the music store as well.

If you recall, Microsoft was sued for similar practices: leveraging their monopoly in the OS market to gain a foothold in the browser market, and using private APIs to gain an unfair advantage against competitors

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[MBGMorden]

Microsoft's PC peripheals are second to none but IBM,

That's debatable. Overall I'd rate Logitech higher for almost all input devices personally. For mice I'd rate Razer mice higher than Microsoft. For keyboards I like my Matias much better than anything Microsoft cranks out (but then Microsoft and Logitech have gone batty with they're desktop keyboards lately - they all have laptop keys).

I'm not sure what point this had except that I must always take issue if anyone rates MS stuff higher than Logitech :).

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

ok, I'll bite.

I hardly think that Apple is just as bad as Microsoft, but you can discount the many open source projects to which they contribute if you wish.

Are you referring to Mono here?
[citation needed], I think.

I like Apple because I need very little training to use their products, and they take engineering and integration to an appropriate level [...] The only things that matter are whether or not it works well and if it looks cool.

I believe you mixed up your definitions of engineering and aesthetics.

I have used Macs before, although it took me an embarrassing long time to figure out how to launch Firefox instead of Safari

Very little training, you said?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Jerry Smith]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

Value judgment. I think that the Mac OS is much more secure and stable than Windows, but how do you judge the Zune against the iPod? There's no objective criterion there.

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

True, but irrelevant. They both engage in business tactics that screw their customers. If Apple were bigger, they'd probably get slapped around the same way Microsoft did.

Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

Again, true but irrelevant. They both engage in business tactics that screw their customers.

My argument is that they both smack around their customers. I'm wondering why geeks give one a pass while they rabidly fight the other.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zune#Availability_outside_the_U.S. 90% of humankind cannot buy a Zune, unless visiting the States or Canada. Please leave the Zune of this, or I'll be forced to mention... the Pippin!

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[sbeckstead]

I've been using Mac OS X since it debuted, I've never had actually had to re-install Mac OS X when I wasn't upgrading to a new version. I've re-installed WinXP three time in the past year simply because either it caught a virus or spyware, the registry got screwed up and it quit working or some such. The other day I fired up XP and suddenly every program I tried to run couldn't be loaded by acrobat, seems the .exe file type was given a program to load it called acrobat. So yeah I'd call the Apple products I have used superior to Microsoft's. I have used both heavily since 1984. I program Windows for a living, I use Macs when I want to relax and just use a computer.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[nsayer]

I have run windows xp and several different linuxes on my laptops and desktops, as well as having used Mac OS pretty extensively. Windows XP wins hands down every single time.

snigger. Ok. Whatever.

Courts are now the deciders for quality of tech?

No. But it is a fact that Microsoft is a convicted monopolist and Apple is not. That's all I said.

Apple's monopoly power is also in the hardware-that-is-allowed-to-run-Mac-OSX department

That is not a market. That is a distinction that you have drawn solely for the purpose of your argument. Microsoft's share of the desktop operating system market is in excess of 90%. Hence, they have monopoly power.

Apple's share of the portable music market is something like 70%, so it is a far bigger stretch to suggest that they have monopoly power in that market, but I have conceded the point for the sake of my prior post.

How, seriously, is Apple any better than anything else?

The OP didn't say better, he said different. I gave a list. QED.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[nsayer]

how do you judge the Zune against the iPod? There's no objective criterion there

I'd suggest giving it the "rotten tomatoes" treatment. I've seen far more numerous poor reviews of the Zune than the iPod.

True, but irrelevant. They both engage in business tactics that screw their customers.

Nowhere have I said otherwise. The OP merely asked how Microsoft and Apple were different, and I provided a list.

I'm wondering why geeks give one a pass while they rabidly fight the other.

[citation needed]

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[riceboy50]

I'm wondering why geeks give one a pass while they rabidly fight the other

It's called rooting for the underdog. It happens everywhere, not just in tech.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Zencyde]

Yeah, I'd rather have a Miata over a Microsoft product as well. But I'm an FOSS guy who likes cars.

Also, I think that laptop keyboard design is a stupid trend started (or extensively encouraged) by Apple. Apparently everything is better if it's thinner. This includes laptops, keyboards, and monitors/televisions. Because, apparently making things thinner makes the more useful? Honestly, I'm perfectly comfortable with things that are already thin remaining where they are.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

How so? I have run windows xp and several different linuxes on my laptops and desktops, as well as having used Mac OS pretty extensively. Windows XP wins hands down every single time. What are you using your Mac for that makes it so superior to a windows machine?

Well, I use my mac as a place to store data that i don't want every script kiddie in the world to get their paws on, or virus up the box and have my data deleted.

Considering there are still admin/root remote exploits in all windows versions up through Vista that are still to this day unpatched, which they have known about since at least when Vista came out if not longer.

Maybe you don't mind having to jump through tons of hoops to keep your XP box safe on the net, but the rest of us do.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[nsayer]

Everyone who has chimed in has made the fundamental mistake that my list of differences between the two somehow justify a difference in how both companies should be judged for their behavior.

Go back and read carefully what I said again.

Apart from suggesting that Apple's products are better than Microsoft's (and I stand behind that assertion), where did I say anything that suggested that Apple was either better than or more deserving of a pass than Microsoft?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Zencyde]

I think I'll stick to Linux simply because the support (community support) is just so damned good. And the idea of software repositories has spoiled me rotten. Yeah... some of us don't like being used by corporations when it's unnecessary. :)

Little tidbit: I plugged my RAZR (utter piece of shit) into my Linux box and Ubuntu 8.10 popped up a bubble telling me it's a GSM compatible device and added it to my list of networking devices. Let's see OS X and Windows do THAT out of the box.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[blhack]

Apple's share of the portable music market is something like 70%, so it is a far bigger stretch to suggest that they have monopoly power in that market, but I have conceded the point for the sake of my prior post.

Apple's share of the market for manufacturers of PCs that are allowed to run OSX is 100%. Psystar tried to enter the market, and Apple is (last time I checked pystar is still taking orders) trying to sue them into non-existence in order to maintain their 100% market share.

You may wish to re-check the definition of "Monopoly".

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[slashdotlurker]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

The OS. No doubt. But no one buys a computer for an OS. They buy it for apps. In that area, Windows beats the crap out of Mac. Disclaimer : I am a longtime Linux user who uses crossover for the few apps that have no Linux replacements.

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

Yet. Size for size, I am not sure that Apple's actions less intrusive and deliberately open-source unfriendly (unfriendly by design) than Microsoft's. If you roll back time to when Microsoft was as big a player on the desktop as Apple is now, I think they were significantly less intrusive (I will readily grant that they were in their drug dealer mode then).
It is my opinion that if Apple ever grows to be the size of Microsoft in terms of market share on the desktop, they will be far far more unfriendly to third party apps or even other platforms than Microsoft ever were. Its the Apple mentality which contains being a control freak in a rather large measure in addition to their other "virtues" (which involve robbing customers etc.).

Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

True and it is instructive to compare how they are handling the challengers to their dominance. Apple today (and yesterday and probably tomorrow) is like Gates + Ballmer circa 2003 on steroids.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Serious Callers Only]

Windows XP wins hands down every single time.

If you dispense with the hand-waving, by what metric does it 'win'? One look at the control panels for Windows XP let me know all I need to about the lack of thought that has gone into the UI (and by extension the OS), and on that score it loses for me. I'm sure on other metrics it is adequate. I can't imagine how you would compare it to OS X and Linux (I'm thinking of Ubuntu) and consider it *winning*. It also lacks for example a lot of unix utilities that you can take for granted on other operating systems.

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

Courts are now the deciders for quality of tech?

No, courts are the deciders on illegal, predatory behaviour in the market, and that is what Microsoft were convicted of. If that sits fine with you, feel free to ignore it. It's you who has to deal wtih them.

Microsofts policy is "Here, do whatever you want with this so long as you buy it".

No, it's, here do whatever you want so long as you use exclusively our products, otherwise we will make life painful for you (from DR-DOS and Lotus on). They're very similar to Apple in some domains like music or entertainment, which makes a nonsense of your 'we are licensing this to you...' line on Apple. See Xbox, and PlaysForSure.

Apple certainly has faults, but setting them up as some fall-guy for all DRM or control is patently absurd - many other players in the market including Microsoft have been trying to control what their consumers do with their products.

How, seriously, is Apple any better than anything else?

For the reasons you so airily dismiss in your post. Maybe they're meaningless to you, but certainly people do choose things other than Microsoft products after some thought.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[AlXtreme]

How, seriously, is Apple any better than anything else?

Well, Jobs' magical fairy dust is better than anything else.

It's the dust that makes everything worth 3x their normal price, force you to buy a toy made in China even if it means waiting in line for a day and makes you act like you're suffering from rabies if anyone were ever to say anything slightly negative about said toy. You'll even rationalize using the DMCA to limit your own freedom.

I have an iPod. It has been collecting dust for a while now, as I listen to music on my Nokia. I've had a couple of macs but since the Plus/SE time they never have actually been _better_ than a PC. The Jesusphone? Meh.

Apple has their fans. They've been the driving force behind the company since the early days. That's where Apple has been better than everyone else. But for the love of Jobs, I really don't get why.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[blhack]

No, it's, here do whatever you want so long as you use exclusively our products, otherwise we will make life painful for you (from DR-DOS and Lotus on). They're very similar to Apple in some domains like music or entertainment, which makes a nonsense of your 'we are licensing this to you...' line on Apple. See Xbox, and PlaysForSure.

Huh, I guess I got a goofy copy of it or something. I use firefox, inkscape, scribus, gimp, VLC, Opera, Itunes, putty, psftp, pscp, python and a whole slew of other open-source or designed-for-linux ported-to-windows apps on my XP machine and it hasn't complained once!

In FACT!! Whats odd is that some of these apps seem to run better on my windows machine than they do on any of my linux or BSD machines!

There was one time where I even installed Flash instead of silverlight..don't tell microsoft, i would hate for them to come and give me whatever copy of windows you're using.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Because their design aesthetic matches my spartan apartment and my geek-chic lifestyle? Because cash registers are so last year? (I just noticed this last one - I'm late to the party).

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Blakey Rat]

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

The iPod isn't "vastly superior" to the Zune. OS X isn't "vastly superior" to Vista. You weaken your point with the overstatement.

I'm not arguing that they aren't superior at all, but "vastly" is a vast over-statement, here. Personally, I like Vista better than OS X, but I like my iPhone better as a music player than my Zune. (But I hate iTunes about 10,000 times more than the Zune software... the Zune software is actually quite nice, iTunes is a bloated, buggy, POS.)

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[basicio]

Apple's PR team is much better--that's why Apple avoids all of the crap that gets tossed at MS.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[mrchaotica]

how do you judge the Zune against the iPod? There's no objective criterion there.

Yeah there is:

• iPods sync with iTunes; Zunes do not.
• iPods have a much bigger accessory market
• Lots of car stereos support iPods (esp. Toyotas); to properly support a Zune you'd have to buy a Ford.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[stewbacca]

Not like this argument is older than you (probably) but I can't let a Mac vs. PC troll like yours go unanswered. I'll save my best answers for threads where it isn't off-topic but here's a start.

Windows XP wins hands down every single time.

You mean like when you try to rename a file but it is open so you can't rename it without closing it first? Seems like XP doesn't win "hands down ever single time". (Just the tip-o-the-iceberg). There also seems to be entire fields of study in the area of usability and the creative industry that tend to disagree with your sentiment, but those are mostly overpaid hippy college researcher types, so what do they know about the real world anyway?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Jherek Carnelian]

It doesn't help that Mac's always use their own special apostrophe character that looks like a capital A with a hat on it when viewed on other systems.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[tvon]

How the hell did that mess of a comment get modded up to "+5, Insightful"? I expect rapid anti-Apple madness around here, but I don't expect them to get modded up so high.

Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's.

How so? I have run windows xp and several different linuxes on my laptops and desktops, as well as having used Mac OS pretty extensively.

What does linux have to do with it?

Windows XP wins hands down every single time.

What does Windows XP win at, being superior? How so? Doing what?

Microsoft has been convicted of anti-trust violations in federal court. Apple has not.

Courts are now the deciders for quality of tech?

Who said anything about courts being deciders of tech quality? You're pulling nonsense out of thin air. The question was "how are Apple and Microsoft different" and that was one example. Not a great example, but still...

Apple's monopoly power is in the portable music market. Microsoft's is in the desktop operating system market.

Apple's monopoly power is also in the hardware-that-is-allowed-to-run-Mac-OSX department.

Sure, and Microsoft has a monopoly on what hardware you can run the Xbox 360 system on.

Microsofts policy is "Here, do whatever you want with this so long as you buy it".

Yeah right, that's their policy.

Apple's policy is "We are licensing this to you. You have no rights to use it for anything other than what we explicitly declare and you better not fucking try to develop for it because we will sue you in to oblivion."

There is a large community of Apple developers that would disagree with that statement.

How, seriously, is Apple any better than anything else?

So now they're the worst "anything"? Right.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[stewbacca]

There's always that annoying directional pad thing that has a mind of its own on the Zune. I can't get that thing to navigate anywhere near the correct direction. Maybe I have fat fingers, but it isn't a problem with the iPod.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[stewbacca]

But no one buys a computer for an OS.

I guess you are wrong, because I have been doing exactly that since 1987. What good are all those apps if you have a POS OS trying to control them all?

They buy it for apps. In that area, Windows beats the crap out of Mac.

But a Mac can run Windows, so what's your point? I'm really getting tired of this argument. "Beats the crap" out of a Mac? I'm not convinced.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Plus, from nsayer's experience, Steve Jobs gives great anal.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

W. is the decider!

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Lets take that argument further

* More games on Windows that anything else
* More professional applications (not some buggy sourcforge crap) on Windows
* All hardware comes with drivers for whatever windows is the current version
* Microsoft has more money so it wont go out of business.. aka support, updates etc etc
* You dont have to buy overpriced made in china apple hardware.

Apple sucks and Linux sucks.... Logical conclusion taking your toddler brain logic to the final conclusion.

It was tough trying to follow your logic, most of us cant imagine how retards like you think.. .. I tried.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[rdoger6424]

BMW has a 100% market share of BMWs. They should allow competition.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[mjwx]

We give Apple a pass because where Microsoft just screws us, Apple cuddles with us before it leaves.

Microsoft is at least kind enough to use water-based lube and a condom, while the cuddles still feel cold and impersonal.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Idiomatick]

Wow "Apple's products are vastly superior to Microsoft's." getting modded +5 informative? I must be lost, i'm deep in the reality distortion field.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[larry bagina]

psystar's antitrust complaint against apple was rejected. But I'm sure you know what a monopoly is, unlike that judge guy.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Did anybody say it did?

http://daringfireball.net/, possibly.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[chthonicdaemon]

FWIW, Apple make a development environment called Xcode.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Well, whatever. All I know is that I can drag files from my Zune BACK TO any computer, with no nonsense involved. I also have my entire library on the Zune in AAC, and it doesn't care. Any supported format has the same functionality, even if it's The Enemies. Also, it works perfectly with Songbird / Linux.

Apple wants many golds from me, so they don't want me to copy from an iPod to a computer, or even plug an iPod into another computer without nuking it. And they could support WMA/WMV, it's certainly been around long enough, they just don't want to. Stubbornness I suppose. And I'm SOL if I don't want to use iTunes, which seems to work better on OS X than on Windows - I wonder why?

I don't know about you, but the Microsoft platform certainly seems like the more open one to me.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

What are you using your Mac for that makes it so superior to a windows machine?

What are you using your windows machine for that makes it so superior to a Mac?

You know, while we're all just refuting points with more subjective opinions and such.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Tensor]

ROFL ... its 4am and I did not expect to laugh when i am so tired.

Thanks !

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Serious Callers Only]

Huh, I guess I got a goofy copy of it or something. I use firefox, inkscape, scribus, gimp, VLC, Opera, Itunes, putty, psftp, pscp, python and a whole slew of other open-source or designed-for-linux ported-to-windows apps on my XP machine and it hasn't complained once!

Opera began on windows BTW. I wasn't talking about Linux UI apps ported to Windows, I'm aware there are some, and yes some command line tools run fine via *third party* add-ons like cygwin. There are issues running things like ruby on windows, and you certainly wouldn't want to use it as a development environment using non-microsoft tools, unlike Linux or OS X. As I said, you may be happy with what you have, but it doesn't mean everyone would be or that Windows is somehow better.

In FACT!! Whats odd is that some of these apps seem to run better on my windows machine than they do on any of my linux or BSD machines!

Better in what way? More hand-waving.

There was one time where I even installed Flash instead of silverlight..don't tell microsoft, i would hate for them to come and give me whatever copy of windows you're using.

Funny that you mention that, as Silverlight is designed precisely to guide you into using Microsoft tools. When they break Flash deliberately and try to kill it (as they did with Java), I'm sure you'll find some rationalisation as to why Silverlight 'runs better' and wins.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[jonaskoelker]

Microsoft's PC peripheals are second to none

They're the ones making the Kinesis Ergo Elan keyboards and the Logitech Marble Mouse? ;)

On a serious note: how are Microsoft's peripherals better than those two? And for bonus points, find reasons that are not personal value judgments, such as "damages your hands less" or "lets you do your work faster".

[I'm not claiming the things I use are the best, just that it's not clear to me how Microsoft's offerings are better]

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

And they get paid more.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Wheely]

Amen to that. Sometimes I remember to press the right combination of keys but mostly I don't. (apostrophe courtesy of Linux this time)

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Wheely]

To be fair, OSX isn't all crud. It's core audio subsystem beats the living crap out of Linux and alsa. You can plug in vast arrays of midi or audio devices into firewire or USB ports and OSX handles it beautifully. You can pull them out, aggregate them together or whatever you like but mostly you plug things in and the correct thing happens.

However, the rest of OSX drives me nuts. It is inconsistent, stupid and not particularly efficient.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Zencyde]

Ugh... ALSA definitely needs configuration for my (relatively common) motherboard. It works mostly; but, it tries to claim I have a rear channel and points it towards the center channel. It calls it "LFE". I wonder if they would consider implementing a database of proper configurations for various chipsets...

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Um, when I view that post with my OS X system, I see the umlauted "A" character, too. So, there must be something odd about the setting of your text encoding or something. Because, I don't think that the default text encoding (at least for U.S. English) creates odd single-quote characters.

Here is a whole bunch of them, btw. ' ' ' ' ' ' '

Now, did those appear as "hatted A" chars, or single quotes? If it is the latter, then it is something in the config. of YOUR system, not OS X in general.

And why do you say OS X is unstable? I have been running OS X since 1999, and I haven't seen a Kernel Panic except twice: Once was back in the days of 10.1, and was from some POS F/OSS video player app (can't remember which, not VLC), and the other was when I bought some bad 3rd party RAM. And I use Final Cut, Logic, etc.

BTW, I am posting this as AC, ONLY because, if I "log in" now, Slashdot kicks me all the fuck back to the main page, and I have to dig through a gazillion posts just to get back to where I was.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Draek]

On a serious note: how are Microsoft's peripherals better than those two? And for bonus points, find reasons that are not personal value judgments, such as "damages your hands less" or "lets you do your work faster".

In comparisons between PC peripheals, there's only one characteristic that can be objetively evaluated, and that's price. Everything else is a personal value judgement, and in *my* personal value judgement, I've yet to use an "ergonomic" keyboard that doesn't utterly suck, or a Logitech product that's good enough to justify the price tag (they don't suck, they just don't excel either, IMHO).

Your opinion may be different, of course, and I have no problem with that but Microsoft's peripheal offerings have enough of a following, IMHO, to call them superior to what Apple bundles with their computers and as such disproving the "Apple makes superior products" claim of the previous poster.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Draek]

Apart from suggesting that Apple's products are better than Microsoft's (and I stand behind that assertion), where did I say anything that suggested that Apple was either better than or more deserving of a pass than Microsoft?

The fact that you replied to a post that asked whether there was any difference in the companies themselves to merit the difference in judgement towards them. If they're irrelevant, why list them? hell, I could name a few other differences too: one company's name starts with a M, and the other with an A, one's name has 9 letters, the other 5, and though both companies' CEO are named Steve, one's Ballmer and the other's Jobs. Really useful, isn't it?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[MasterOfMagic]

Heard of that time when Microsoft locked down everything it had, fucked and censored its own fans and customers and had the most obnoxious followers on the planet?

Sounds like the Windows Vista launch to me and the whole scuttlebutt going on with the Vista Capable Program, and yes, I've heard plenty about it.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

and IBM controls 100% of the z/OS computer market ... how dare they!

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[nsayer]

If they're irrelevant, why list them?

Because OP asked how they were different. He asked, I answered.

I could name a few other differences too

Excellent. The list has grown. However, I would say that the list I gave had more significant differences between the two.

But the next question OP asked was how those differences allowed one company to be judged differently than the other, and my reply questioned that assertion that it followed that they should.

Once again, go back and read carefully what I said. I don't think that you yet have.

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

We give Apple a pass because where Microsoft just screws us, Apple cuddles with us before it leaves.

Shouldn't that be a 5, Insightful?

Re:Microsoft and Apple

[NuclearKangaroo]

My pleasure. :)

Which leads to a question

[Vexorian]

Why hasn't the EU screwed apple already? The itunes-ipod abuse is like 10 times worse than IE-windows, yet nobody seems to be doing anything to stop this abusive non-sense.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Anonymous Coward]

Because the EU lives in a magical land with fairies and leprechauns!

Not to mention the the EU also likes the warm-and-fuzzy feeling that Apple gives them. No, that's not a hummer and no this isn't a flame.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Red Flayer]

Why hasn't the EU screwed apple already? The itunes-ipod abuse is like 10 times worse than IE-windows, yet nobody seems to be doing anything to stop this abusive non-sense.

One reason is because Apple does not have a monopoly. It's ok to mildly abuse your customers if they can go to one of your competitors.

ITMS is far from the sole provider of online music, and Apple is far from the sole provider of "mp3" players.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Firehed]

IE-Windows is only harmful to web developers. Windows-All PC Hardware, not so much. While they've taken some legal shit for the former (though moreso with WMP than IE, if memory serves), it's the latter that really got them in trouble.

Re:Which leads to a question

[tgatliff]

Maybe it is because people actually like the iTunes -> iPod setup.

Meaning, you are not required to buy an iPod or iPhone. Also, you are not required to buy iTunes. There are plenty of other options to choose from. In MS Windows case, all of the vendor applications were written for Windows, so you really had no choice...

Re:Which leads to a question

[jorgis]

I wouldn't say nobody is doing anything.. Just because Apple doesn't get the treatment MS has gotten, doesn't mean nobody cares or does anything. ;) The Ombudsman of Norway has since sometime 2006 been in a legal battle against Apple for locking music on iTunes to their iPod's, demanding that it either only sell music playable on other players or open up iTunes to be able to export music to a format playable by other players (eg. DRM-free MP3). The latest development is that the case has going to be brought up for Markedsrådet (eng: The marketing council, a court for marketing related cases), which basically has the authority to set requirements for what Apple may sell/market in Norway. This may just lead to Apple stopping all sales of non-iTunes Plus music in Norway, solving the problem but leaving us with only a subset of the available music on iTunes..

Re:Which leads to a question

[JonathanBoyd]

Why hasn't the EU screwed apple already? The itunes-ipod abuse is like 10 times worse than IE-windows, yet nobody seems to be doing anything to stop this abusive non-sense.

That would be because Apple are merely restricting how you use their own product. They're not interfering with anyone else's competing product, dictating to retailers which products they stock or to suppliers which companies they can sell to i.e. they're not preventing competition in the market of 'digital music players and downloadable music' - an entirely different situation to the Windows/IE one. Plus their market share is lower.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Anonymous Coward]

ITMS is far from the sole provider of online music, and Apple is far from the sole provider of "mp3" players.

However, just like windows, these product make up the vast majority of the market in question. This is why apple is shitting over everyone, it's a huge revenue stream they're trying to keep hold of. And like MS before them, the more people that use their products, the more fanboys like you will have their voices diluted.

Face the facts, apple are getting worse for the consumer, have been for a number of years, and are as desparate for the lock-in model, just as MS were in the 90s. After all, it's extremely successful when it works. Now that more of the masses are trying them out, more are finding it's hype and shit dressed up for the ball. Look up the skirt, and it's still a skanky hairy muff. And that's coming from someone who's spent over $8k on apple gear in the last three years, which is likely to be all they get from me.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Anonymous Coward]

According tho this, http://www.usatoday.com/tech/products/services/2006-07-30-emusic_x.htm) In 2006 ITMS had nearly 70% market share of the digital download music market. EMusic was in second at 11%. For all intents and porposes, that makes it a monopoly. There is nothing wrong with having a monopoly. But when you have a monopoly, it is not OK to use it to dominate another market, or to lock your customers into your services.

Re:Which leads to a question

[sbeckstead]

It's simple, like your understanding of monopolies.

Having a monopoly isn't illegal. Using unfair means to maintain that monopoly is illegal.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Taibhsear]

I assume you meant you are not required to buy music from iTunes, since iTunes is a free download. Personally I have played with iTunes on friends' computers and I hated it. When I got my 5th Gen iPod (only reason I got it was because it was the biggest storage on the market at the time) I never even installed iTunes. Winamp runs it natively perfectly and IMO is set up WAY better. You can also extract files from any mp3 player connected to the computer and have the metadata and file names written in a coherent manner. No asinine obfuscation of filenames to prevent you from sneaker netting media around with your friends. Oh and Amarok works just as well if you run linux (I dualboot Ubuntu and XP).

Re:Which leads to a question

[Red Flayer]

We're talking about the EU. Care to look up Apple's current market share in the EU? You'll find it to be different.

The EU != the US. 2006 != 2008.

While Apple is the dominant player in the market, that does not mean that they are a de facto monopoly. You'll see from EU spokespeople that they do not consider Apple to be a monopoly partly because of the competition from pirated music.

Re:Which leads to a question

[prockcore]

When I got my 5th Gen iPod (only reason I got it was because it was the biggest storage on the market at the time) I never even installed iTunes.

Yeah, but that's not possible with the 6th Gen iPods... that's what this article is about. You *must* use iTunes to add music to 6th Gen iPods.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Anonymous Coward]

What OS are you using? Microsoft has never had a monopoly over anything, except perhaps in a narrowly-defined lawyerly sense. Next thing you'll be telling me that it's because of monopolistic, anti-consumer tactics that there are more cars on the road than motorcycles.

Linux is a thrill, but it's not for everyone. Most people don't think, "Man, with sed, postfix and xargs I could get some shit DONE today!". I do, but everyone else at work just wants Word and Excel to work more-or-less reliably.

One is a simple to use machine that gets the job done, and the other is high-performance, specialized, and either a lot of fun or death on wheels, depending on conditions.

Re:Which leads to a question

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Why are you comparing this to IE? Why not to Microsoft's music stores, some were they've shut down the servers leaving the customers with non-functioning music files that they paid for. Apple has yet to do anything like that.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Tensor]

So:
Its illegal for MS to integrate IE into xp and vista .... but fine when Apple does it (with safari obviously)

Its ok for them to intentionally cripple the bluetooth stack in the iphone, but when Verizon did it with the motorola v710 (preventing photos to be synched via bt) they were evil and got a class action lawsuit for their evil practices. ... i don't get it.

Re:Which leads to a question

[sam0737]

maybe because you don't get an ipod free for buying a Mac?

Re:Which leads to a question

[Anonymous Coward]

No monopoly? You're joking right? You don't call the iPod a prime example of monopoly? I sure do. It's bad enough that I can't find "alternative" players (outside the *snort* Zune) anymore. But the massive overload of iPods has given Apple carte blanche to do whatever the hell they want. They CONTROL the audio standard. They could have made or broke, say, Ogg Vorbis so what did they do? They broke it. There's no reason why the iPod can't decode Ogg...but apple doesn't want you to. Ogg is forever fringe because of it. Ditto for FLAC. The official Apple blessing falls only on MP3, AAC and their stupid and unneccesary ALAC codec. There's no point in promoting "free" alternatives when Apple essentially controls the hardware. Sure Rockbox is great if you've got an old device, but they are forever playing catch-up.

What apple has done with audio codecs is EXACLTY how a monopoly works.

But whatever. The Apple cult here will surely mod me down.

Re:Which leads to a question

[Anonymous Coward]

What are you talking about? Why are you marked +5 Informative?

The suit was over Windows coming bundled with software. Meaning that Microsoft had to release a version of Windows without IE or Windows Media Player.

It would be like EU telling Apple to strip Safari, iTunes, and iLife from Mac OSX because it provided Apple with an unfair advantage (i.e. their software comes bundled). Instead Apple's defense to date has been:

"If you don't let me be me, than I will not be friends with you and leave!"

When France told them they would have to strip out DRM from their iTunes store and provide interoperability, they told the court they would stop sales in France. Apple is the 16-year old girl of courts, whereas Microsoft has become the fat kid who everyone picks on.

The suit was brought on by our friends Real, et. al. They were pissed that RealAudio wasn't selling well, and blamed it on Microsoft bundling Windows Media player with the OS.

Windows has far more choices in terms of software then Mac OSX ever did.

So the question comes back, why doesn't EU go after Apple, when apple is far more anti-competitive (as defined by EU and US courts) than Microsoft is.

Take 'em down boys

[JBG667]

http://www.omm.com/sanfrancisco/

BTW, the lawyer's name is Ramage - quite appropriate in my opinion.

tr.v., rammed, ramÂming, rams.

      1. To strike or drive against with a heavy impact; butt: rammed the door with a sledgehammer until it broke open.
      2. To force or press into place.
      3. To cram; stuff: rammed the clothes into the suitcase.
      4. To force passage or acceptance of: rammed the project through the city council despite local opposition.

Re:Take 'em down boys

[danomac]

Meh, if you think that's good... when I was dealing with my mother's estate, the lawyer's assistant's name was Sue. How fitting is that?

Nissan

[Rinisari]

I just bought a new Nissan, fully loaded, except the iPod connection package. The dealer was curious as to why I specifically didn't want it, especially he knows I'm into all kinds of technology and gadgets. My reply: "I would never use a device that locks down what I put on it."

Re:Nissan

[ActionDesignStudios]

Wow, dude. You're like, a total badass. Fight the power!

Re:Nissan

[MightyYar]

That Nissan of yours has just a *few* more proprietary parts than your iPod... just sayin'. iPods play unlocked content just fine, you know.

Re:Nissan

[againjj]

That Nissan of yours has just a *few* more proprietary parts than your iPod... just sayin'.

That's not relevant.

iPods play unlocked content just fine, you know.

That is.

Having proprietary parts does not imply lockdown. What is at issue here is lockdown of use. He can use his Nissan however he darn well pleases (modulo applicable laws). He can not (will not?) with the iPod, however, as alternate interface software is being targeted. Though, he only complains about the locking down of content, as opposed to the interface, which means his complaint is accurately addressed by your second statement.

Re:Nissan

[poetmatt]

Yeah, what you basically gave up was also called a "headphone jack", not so much specifically an ipod package.

Re:Nissan

[Uksi]

Yes, Nissan (like many other auto manufacturers) does not release a list of troubleshooting CEL codes, so when something that's not standard goes wrong, you won't be able to figure it out, unless you have the dealership's diagnostic system (or Google for the code and hope to find someone who's run into this). And you can't diagnose ABS, airbags and other systems without a proprietary interface either, so good luck getting that figured out at your local mechanic. Off to the stealership you go.

Re:Nissan

[AnswerIs42]

So.. you don't use the locks on the car then? Rules out the trunk as well. They "lock down" what you put in it.

Re:Nissan

[MightyYar]

Nice.

I don't know about Nissan, but Toyota sure ain't your friend if it's copyright you are itchin' about.

And here's Nissan abusing trademark law.

Re:Nissan

[MightyYar]

Having proprietary parts does not imply lockdown.

Really? Try looking up CEL codes on Google and get back to me. They keep 'em largely secret to shuttle you into their dealers. And there's nothing "open" about their engine control computer - so no, you can't use the car any way you wish any more than you can use the chip in your iPod any way that you want.

Re:Nissan

[QuantumRoot]

O RLY?

Re:Nissan

[Hatta]

And here's Nissan abusing trademark law.

That's not even the worst. I'm sure as hell never buying a Nissan.

Re:Nissan

[MightyYar]

Oh my, how'd I forget that?

Re:Nissan

[againjj]

You mean like this?
http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/nissan/
It took me less than a minute to find this (search terms: "nissan computer error codes"). And anyone could get the information out of the service manuals. Don't forget that you can walk into any auto parts store and grab a reader for most common computers, so you don't need a dealer or other mechanic.

Besides, no one is wanting to desolder the chips out of an iPod, so that example is pointless. They want to interface to the iPod in ways not intended by the manufacturer, which the Nissan owner could do. I knew a paraplegic that had after market modifications made to a van that replaced the standard control with a panel board, removed the driver's seat, and added a ramp and pathway to the driver's seat. My father's truck consists of a 49 Ford pickup with a 67 Chevy engine, with an adapter to interface the two. No one wants to use a car's computer apart from the engine. It does not lock down the user of a car in any way, except when that computer must be replaced, it must be purchased from Nissan. But that is true about a book such as the latest Stephen King novel, and generally people don't claim lockdown for physical books -- they are actually a prime example in comparisons to software or eBooks. Cars similarly are much less locked down.

Last, even if you come up with an example where there is lockdown in the presence of proprietary parts, that still does not invalidate "Having proprietary parts does not imply lockdown." Rather, you have to show that in all cases of proprietary parts, there is lockdown.

Re:Nissan

[stewbacca]

So I'm just gonna play devil's advocate and guess you've bought an iPod then? You know you can buy non-drm tunes from the iTunes store, rip your own cds and buy all kinds of mp3s without drm and an iPod will play them all, right? Let's not forget that iPods don't care about DRM either, because you are not limited to the number of iPods authorized to play drm files. The only thing Apple DRM does is limit the number of personal computers (five) you can play the songs on.

Re:Nissan

[Vegeta99]

I bet that Nissan's a lot like my Volkswagen in that sure, there's an OBD-II port, but the codes only apply to what the government requires for emissions. Other diagnostic systems need to be accessed by a Volkswagen dealer computer or a "Vag-Com"

Re:Nissan

[MightyYar]

You mean like this?
http://www.obd-codes.com/trouble_codes/nissan/ [obd-codes.com]

Yes, sites exist where the codes have been figured out - but that doesn't mean that Nissan didn't make it difficult. This is analogous to Apple's keeping the iPod protocols and file formats secret - yet people still figured it out and created web sites. Furthermore, the OBD-II connector and some of the codes are mandated by law - so it's no surprise that you can plug into it. Prior to the law, the auto manufacturers used proprietary connectors.

I knew a paraplegic that had after market modifications made to a van that replaced the standard control with a panel board, removed the driver's seat, and added a ramp and pathway to the driver's seat.

So you couldn't rig an iPod with external hardware? If there was demand for a big external LCD screen on an iPod, it could be done. It's not like you need Nissan's (or Apple's) permission to make hardware mods.

My father's truck consists of a 49 Ford pickup with a 67 Chevy engine, with an adapter to interface the two.

Neither the '49 Ford nor the '67 Chevy has a computer, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. You could probably rig up a FrankenPod if you really wanted to with an "adapter". I mean, here's a guy who hooked up his iPod to a full-sized hard drive for some reason.

No one wants to use a car's computer apart from the engine.

True, but lots of people tune their engines by changing the ROMs - no thanks to the car companies. It's such a headache that aftermarket companies like Haltech make a good living selling entirely new engine management systems, despite the OEM hardware being perfectly capable. I've never modded a Nissan, but my understanding is that you have to solder the boards.

But you don't have to play with the computer to see how much the car companies screw you. Proprietary connectors abound, no more grease fittings, you need weird tools that are specific to brand - if not model. Hell, they even make the warranties dependent on using their fluids now.

As for implying lockdown - I probably chose a bad portion of your message to quote. I will say, however, that it's very hard to think of a case where proprietary parts are present and yet there is no attempt at lockdown.

Re:Nissan

[againjj]

I knew a paraplegic that had after market modifications made to a van that replaced the standard control with a panel board, removed the driver's seat, and added a ramp and pathway to the driver's seat.

So you couldn't rig an iPod with external hardware? If there was demand for a big external LCD screen on an iPod, it could be done. It's not like you need Nissan's (or Apple's) permission to make hardware mods.

The reason this is analogous is that the dashboard of a car is the car's interface, just as iTunes is the iPod's interface. Nissan is not stopping someone from doing this, but now Apple is.

My father's truck consists of a 49 Ford pickup with a 67 Chevy engine, with an adapter to interface the two.

Neither the '49 Ford nor the '67 Chevy has a computer, so I'm not sure where you are going with this. You could probably rig up a FrankenPod if you really wanted to with an "adapter". I mean, here's a guy who hooked up his iPod to a full-sized hard drive for some reason.

Just another example. Given that you mentioned the car computer, which is part of the engine really, then one could consider the entire chassis/body as the interface and replace that. If you want an example with a computer, I know someone who dropped a 2005(?) Toyota engine into a 1980's Jeep.

No one wants to use a car's computer apart from the engine.

True, but lots of people tune their engines by changing the ROMs - no thanks to the car companies. It's such a headache that aftermarket companies like Haltech make a good living selling entirely new engine management systems, despite the OEM hardware being perfectly capable. I've never modded a Nissan, but my understanding is that you have to solder the boards.

And Nissan doesn't stop you, which was the point.

But you don't have to play with the computer to see how much the car companies screw you. Proprietary connectors abound, no more grease fittings, you need weird tools that are specific to brand - if not model. Hell, they even make the warranties dependent on using their fluids now.

I basically agree. Nissan does attempt lockdown. However, the difference is between making it difficult, and invoking law.

As for implying lockdown - I probably chose a bad portion of your message to quote. I will say, however, that it's very hard to think of a case where proprietary parts are present and yet there is no attempt at lockdown.

Again, I basically agree. The cases I think of are where pluggability is important (you can swap hard drives, monitors, etc. all you want in a computer), where the vendor does not see a possible revenue stream (some devices have the spec open for people to write Linux drivers), or where the item is low tech (furniture, clothing).

Re:Nissan

[MightyYar]

I basically agree. Nissan does attempt lockdown. However, the difference is between making it difficult, and invoking law.

Nissan invokes law when they can. They've stopped "gray market" imports using trademark law. They've taken "nissan.com" from a guy named Nissan. Any of these corporations will use whatever laws they can to improve profits.

Anyway, my point was that it was silly to shun the silly little iPod for ideological reasons when the car company that built the car has no moral or ethical claim above Apple.

Re:Nissan

[againjj]

I basically agree. Nissan does attempt lockdown. However, the difference is between making it difficult, and invoking law.

Nissan invokes law when they can. They've stopped "gray market" imports using trademark law. They've taken "nissan.com" from a guy named Nissan. Any of these corporations will use whatever laws they can to improve profits.

Pure technicality: they tried (and failed) to take nissan.com.

Anyway, my point was that it was silly to shun the silly little iPod for ideological reasons when the car company that built the car has no moral or ethical claim above Apple.

Point accepted.

Oh Apple, how could you!!!

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple this is just so wrong of you, you make me so mad, well, um, oh who am I kidding. I love you Apple. You are the apple of my eye. I love you truly my sweet sweet ipod/iphone/itunes/ijobs provider. Forsake me not.

XOXO

Your fanboy,

CmdrTaco

P.S. that quip about you being lame was just a joke, my baby

Banshee just got ported to Mac OS

[TheModelEskimo]

...coincidence? Something tells me no.

Re:Banshee just got ported to Mac OS

[Anonymous Coward]

Installing .NET on a Mac? That just disgusting, next you tell us to install Safari and iTunes unter windows?!

Re:Banshee just got ported to Mac OS

[MBGMorden]

Songbird has been out for Mac OS for a long time though, and IMHO is a much better media library app than Banshee.

Rampage

[Qubit]

I first read Apple's lawyer's name as "Rampage"...then when I looked more closely I noticed that his name was just "Ramage".

Pity. It would be so appropriate.

Re:Rampage

[Anonymous Coward]

Think "buttrammage".

I want an iPod touch

[13bPower]

I really want an iPod touch, but if it won't work with Banshee than I will not buy one. What a PITA, I thought they worked.

Re:I want an iPod touch

[X0563511]

I don't want an MP3 player that does not present a filesystem.

Re:I want an iPod touch

[Anonymous Coward]

I want a portable music player that plays music, by song, album, artist, random shuffle, or playlist (including dynamic on-the-fly updated playlists). I don't give a crap how it stores the data as long as it easily plays and syncs with my computer. It could store everything in one massive memory block for all I care.

Same goes for my music library on the computer. It's managing songs (music, really), not files. That they happen to be represented by files is an implementation detail I don't care about, as long as I can easily access them as needed when I want to transfer them to other devices or software.

I used to obsess over little details like that. But then one day I realized such obsession is wasted energy as long as the implementation works, and that was the day my life became a little more enjoyable.

Why can't I use my hardware?

[wikki]

Why are companies so intent on trying to lock people out of their hardware? I have stayed out of the portable MP3 market for years, but recently got a used 5th gen IPOD off of craigslist. Luckily it works fine with Amarok, and other Linux apps.

I just don't understand what they gain by locking out a certain group of users from their Ipods.

The main reason I got an iPod was because I knew I could use it in linux.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[Sir_Lewk]

FYI, if you install Rockbox on your ipod you can use it to play oggvorbis and flac files too. That's what I do myself, and it's also the reason I'd never get a new ipod.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[berend botje]

I have an iPod mini, the built-like-a-tank aluminum one. Love it to bits, gets used every day. And it syncs great on Linux, I use Rhythmbox, but Banshee (and others) do a fine job also. However, the battery gets a little tired and I have been looking at an Ipod Touch. Nifty little device. Except, there is no way to sync it if you don't run iTunes. And as that won't run on Wine, I'm out of luck. Or, rather, Apple is out of luck. No sale.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[Dorkmaster Flek]

I did this myself, and it's specifically the reason why I grabbed a 5.5 gen iPod rather than the newer (and easier to find) 6th gen "Classic" variety. I can play my collection in Ogg Vorbis and update it with rsync. I love their hardware, but they won't let me do what I want with it.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[Fnord666]

If you have an iPod mini and don't mind seeing its guts, there is a nice DIY on the web for converting it to use flash memory rather than a hard drive. While you have it open pop in a new battery and you are good to go for quite a while. Battery life will be improved as well.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[Anonymous Coward]

Why are companies so intent on trying to lock people out of their hardware? Absolute fucking arrogance, that's why. At least in Apple's case.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Flak from having major issues with 3rd party devices when they add new features to iTunes? Because to ensure a smooth experience for every device would cost them a lot. Just easier to not bother letting them in to begin with.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[Ren Hoak]

They're not trying to lock people out of their hardware, though that's the perspective of tech geeks (like myself) who want the freedom to mix and match technologies until we build our perfect setup.

What they are trying to do is lock people into their hardware. Their intent is to get people (in volumes that far outwight the tech geek population) to use their product and then find themselves inconvenienced should they later decide to upgrade to competing products. If they can make it more convenient for Joe Consumer's next purchase to be one of their own products rather than what another company offers, they secure their own financial future. Joe Consumer isn't looking that far down the road and isn't planning to use the product in a manner exceeding the manufacturer's expectations, so Joe Consumer makes his purchase without considering these issues.

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[berend botje]

Well, isn't that the right info at the right time! I'll guess I will send my Mini off for conversion to Flash and a new battery. So, no need for a Touch and it keeps my money in my pocket. Thanks!

Re:Why can't I use my hardware?

[wikki]

Ok, I get this, but how does what is described here do that? The user already has all of their music on their hard drive. This just seems to keep them from using another piece of software from connecting to the iPod.

I guess it does lock the user into iTunes, which probably generates a lot more money than the iPod sales.

Oh look.

[cloakable]

Apple are exploiting a monopoly in one market (iPhone/iPod) to establish a monopoly in another (iTunes).

Hopefully the EU will commence some asskicking.

Re:Oh look.

[Anonymous Coward]

Apple doesn't have a monopoly on portable media players.

Re:Oh look.

[Dog-Cow]

If every unique brand makes its holder a monopolist, then every single company that makes a product is a monopolist.

You are not only stupid, you're an idiot.

Re:Oh look.

[againjj]

There is no monopoly. iPhones are something like 3% of the market (units), so that is a laugh. The iPod has about 70% market share (units), and it has not grown for a couple years.

What have are they gaining?

[bugg_tb]

What are they gaining by adding the hash and stopping people working it out? I've got an old Ipod but I will need to upgrade sometime and I use linux. I like ITunes but I wouldn't install Windows for it, so that would then make me go looking for a different Mp3 player. I'm sure the hash will get cracked, but I don't see whats the big deal.

Thank you Apple

[1053r]

I've been considering buying a non-iPod for my next Mp3 player, but wasn't sure. Now Apple has done the nice thing for me and solidified my decision -- Any suggestions on what my next non-evil Mp3 player should be?

Re:Thank you Apple

[human spam filter]

I just bought a Creative Zen X-Fi.. I'm waiting for it to arrive and I'm crossing my fingers that it will work nicely with Amarok.

Re:Thank you Apple

[smellsofbikes]

I agree with other respondents: almost anything, but my (older, discontined) Creative Zen M works beautifully with Amarok, has a radio, plays both video and audio for longer than my 5g ipod, and the video converter (windows only, so far, though you can fake it with ffmpeg) actually works, rather than spending 2 hours crunching only to say it can't convert the file, the way iTunes always seems to. Too bad the Zen looks like a 1980's remote control, but if you're primarily interested in how well it works, rather than how it looks, it's a nifty device.

Re:Thank you Apple

[Xtifr]

Depends on what you want. Samsung is one of the few to actually advertise the Ogg Vorbis support that most* include these days, which is why they get my support and dollars. You may have other priorities.

* pretty much any modern portable mp3 player uses a standard decoder chipset which supports Vorbis. Notable exceptions include Apple and possibly MS and Sony and Creative (haven't confirmed the latter three). MS's own MTP protocol even has a predefined ID assigned to Vorbis.

Re:Thank you Apple

[default luser]

Take a look at this wonderful website. Between the in-depth reviews and lively forum communities, they won't steer you wrong.

They even have a great online player comparison tool if you can't make up your mind.

Re:Thank you Apple

[Draek]

Depends on your needs. If all you need is something to stick in your pocket with enough music to last you the trip from home to work and back, I'd recommend an el-cheapo chinese-made MP3 player. They can be had for around ~$30, hold around 2 GBs of MP3s, and not only work as standard USB Storage Devices, but also use standard AAA batteries so you can buy a couple of rechargeables anywhere, and in an emergency buy replacements even in a grocery store.

Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

What is it about Apple products that make people willing to put up with all the crap they do to lock customers into everything. They do more bullying and steering of their customers through proprietary formats and schemes than any other company I know of.

Is having the newest Shiny Thing(tm) really worth putting up with Apple?

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[berend botje]

Yeah, for the most part it is. The thing is, the products are really slick and Just Work. There is a sense of ease, of comfort even.

That's to say, they won't sell me the iPod Touch I so very much like to have, as I have no way to sync it on Linux. Too bad, both Apple and I are losing here.

Anyone had any luck running iTunes on Wine? The installer crashes furiously here.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[socketwiz]

I have an iPhone and their DRM scheme doesn't affect me at all. I pay $0.99 for each song and I'm able to play it on my computer and my phone. If I want to use the song in a home movie or something, I simply burn it to a CD, then import it to my movie project. I can then use my song basically anywhere I choose.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[pandrijeczko]

I just by the CD...

At a minimum of 10 songs average on a CD, I can usually get it for the equivalent of $9.99 myself. It's uncompressed and doesn't need to go through a second lossy conversion to get it back onto CD...

I can rip it to what devices I like at whatever bit-rate I like to as many devices I like...

My friends and family can borrow it and listen to it...

If I get bored with it, I can sell it and with the money I make put it towards the cost of another CD...

I can sit and read the sleeve notes while sitting on the toilet... ...and having saved money by buying a reasonably priced phone and music player, I can put the money towards a nice shiny hifi on which I can enjoy my nice shiny CD in all it's full uncompressed beauty...

So stick your iPhone and DRM where you think the sun shines out of...

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[DCstewieG]

If there's one thing so many Slashdotters don't understand, it's the common, non-technical person. Here's how that type of person uses their iPod:

1. Insert a CD
2. Let iTunes import the CD
3. Sync the iPod
4. Know that they can play their music on the computer or the iPod

That's it. They aren't "putting up" with Apple. They're easily organizing and listening to their music.

I used to be a control freak about my music organization. When I first got my iPod I wouldn't dare let iTunes manage my music folder. It didn't take me long to realize that it was pointless, so now I give iTunes control. But guess what? It doesn't even matter because I never access music through the filesystem. I have absolutely no reason to.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[MrEkted]

I do exactly the same thing, but then I rip the CD to my iTunes. I've configured iTunes to rip to mp3, so I store all the files DRM-free. What's the big deal?

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[MBGMorden]

And if you ever switch to a phone that isn't by Apple? Or you want to play your songs on your Linux computer?

Sure, "burn to a cd and rerip". That's effectively circumventing the DRM system that "doesn't affect you at all", and you're loosing some quality in the process.

I personally would rather just buy my songs DRM free off of Amazon.com.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[MBGMorden]

Except that you have a false sense of security. I realize their software setup is great. Personally, I use iTunes and have an iPod too (an 8GB Nano). The software is setup nice. However, when I rip, my song's don't get DRM'd. When I buy songs, I buy them off Amazon.com and no DRM is included.

So, if Creative comes out with this new abso-fucking-lutely awsome portable audio player next year, guess what: I can buy one and play my songs. If you've been buying off of iTunes though? Sorry. Your songs are stuck in Apple's system. If you find a program that works EVEN BETTER than Apple's for organizing your music? Sorry. Your songs are STILL stuck in Apple's system.

Or worse, what happens when a better, cheaper, easier music shop opens with it's OWN DRM. Now, you either continue paying Apple's higher price per song, or start living with half your music stuck in one system and half in another, with no easy way to merge them.

The whole thing is stupid. Consumers don't care about DRM yet because it hasn't bitten them in the ass. That day is coming though, and coming fast.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[pandrijeczko]

Yes, and you still have the CD.

The OP was talking about paying $0.99 per track - by which it's safe to assume he did that as an *alternative* to buying the CD.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[DCstewieG]

I won't argue that buying from the ITMS is a problem. I don't touch DRMed music. But the last thing I remember when talking to someone about that was that "he had to rebuy music on CD that he had on cassette." He is just used to the fact that music doesn't work forever...and this was even a technical guy. I was very surprised.

In any case, I was more arguing against the assertion that people put up with Apple to get the newest shiny object. I just don't think that's true.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Yvan256]

You can rip to AAC and still be DRM-free, you know. Ripping music to MP3 is like ripping a DVD to MPEG-1.

You're using a CODEC that's a decade old.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Yvan256]

And once you start to realize the usefulness of meta information and smart playlists, there's no turning back to managing files by hand. It's pointless, as you say.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Creepy Crawler]

Actually, I remember it being on SGI's around 92 and SunOS in 94 I believe.

And after I checked Wikipedia, the final draft was in '92.

So .. more than a decade. Try 17 years.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Eil]

Is having the newest Shiny Thing(tm) really worth putting up with Apple?

Ask millions of teenagers.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Yvan256]

Well, that only proves my point even further. I do remember WinPlay3 on Windows 3.11, so yes, MP3 is extremely old in computing terms.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[MBGMorden]

But the last thing I remember when talking to someone about that was that "he had to rebuy music on CD that he had on cassette." He is just used to the fact that music doesn't work forever...and this was even a technical guy. I was very surprised.

True, but this is a bit different IMHO. Format shifts tend to happen across timeframes measured in decades. This is more akin to having to rebuy your music every time you buy a new CD player (or at least switch brands of players).

Not to mention a lot of people refuse to rebuy media either way. Often older people (by "older" I mean over 40), but most people I know who had movies on VHS when DVD hit shelves didn't replace them. If they switched they switched for new purchases but still keep their VCR for their old movies.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[ion.simon.c]

The Unicode folks shipped working code in 1992.
RedBook dates from 1980.
ASCII dates from 1962.

Bitrot is a fiction, boss. : )

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[kerin]

I have an iPhone and their DRM scheme doesn't affect me at all. I pay $0.99 for each song and I'm able to play it on my computer and my phone. If I want to use the song in a home movie or something, I simply burn it to a CD, then import it to my movie project. I can then use my song basically anywhere I choose.

What gets me about your comment is how you start off insisting that [iTunes DRM] doesn't affect you, and then spend the rest of the post explaining how it DOES.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Intrinsic]

I dont know about you guys, but I use winamp to handle all my music and its got everything itunes has without all the bloat, so I dont get why people even use it other than the fact that they dont know any better....

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[SoupIsGoodFood_42]

Put up with what crap? I still find iTunes and the iPod to be the best on the market, and all my music is in MP3 or MP4 format, with no DRM anywhere. How am I locked-in, exactly?

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[Anonymous Coward]

If I want to use the song in a home movie or something, I simply burn it to a CD, then import it to my movie project.

Oh, the simplicity! You just explained an extra step that requires additional hardware and a CD every time you do it... but hey, if it helps, you just go on and tell yourself the DRM scheme doesn't affect you at all.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[wzzzzrd]

he just did.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[fuzzlost]

What is it about Apple products that make people willing to put up with all the crap they do to lock customers into everything. They do more bullying and steering of their customers through proprietary formats and schemes than any other company I know of.
Is having the newest Shiny Thing(tm) really worth putting up with Apple?

I am far from an Apple fanboy, I own precisely one Apple device, an iPhone 3G. It actually was not my first choice in smartphones, I initially bought an HTC Tilt running Windows Mobile 6. After the headache of trying to navigate the interface, horrible touch screen sensitivity (even the stylus was a little difficult to use, fingers? Out of the question). The killer was installing 3rd part apps. Half the apps I tried I could not get working with less than an hour worth of work. I never could get DivX working. Even getting the phone to sync with Microsoft's syncing program was a slight hassle, getting things to the phone and such. The HTC Tilt was sleek and sexy, but it was just missing intuitiveness, even if it had more features than the iPhone(java, tethering, access to the file system), it was a pain to use.
So I took it back to the AT&T store, and played with the iPhone for about thirty minutes. And it just worked. So I traded my phone back in, and took an iPhone home. iTunes/iPhone just work. Sure, I know that I am locked in, but my only real lament is lack of Java support (something that I am banking on Apple eventually including). Sure, I can only go through the app store, but... it all works. It works well as a phone, well as a music player, and works well for a mobile gaming platform.
So is it all about the newest Shiny Thing? Not really. It's about having a device that does what it is supposed to, easily with as little hassle as possible.

Re:Why do people still deal with Apple?

[The $teve]

Limewire FTW?

Congratulations Apple

[Daniel Weis]

You have now given me a renewed interest in helping this project attain its goal.

Re:Congratulations Apple

[NoisySplatter]

Streisand effect... GO!

The new version of iTunes sucks too

[Gizzmonic]

I was unimpressed with the new version of iTunes, too. Turning off links to the Music Store no longer works either, unless you use this hack.

Re:The new version of iTunes sucks too

[plasmacutter]

I was unimpressed with the new version of iTunes, too. Turning off links to the Music Store no longer works either, unless you use this hack.

This is false.

Go under parental in the optons

check "itunes store" under disable. No more links, no more store.

Needless to say though, I wont be buying an ipod for my next player.

Re:The new version of iTunes sucks too

[Anonymous Coward]

thanks for the link, I have been annoyed by the ITMS arrows as well. they are happily gone now.

Just say NO, bought a Zen

[Front Line Assembly]

I must say that I bought a creative zen because I hate using ipods. You can't just copy files over to them and back to your computer. Oh no no, you must use itunes and authorize machines etc., and if you screw up there goes your collection.
Of course the zen isn't as "sexy" as the ipod, but SFW? It's in my pocket playing music, and astonishingly it works! And I can freely copy music here and there, and share with friends (which is legal where I live, thank you very much cd/dcd/mp3 player taxes).

Re:Just say NO, bought a Zen

[Omega996]

If someone is retarded/stupid/ignorant enough to keep an entire collection of music or video only on a portable media player, then that person deserves to lose it. That's akin to keeping important personal documents on a laptop, never backing it up, and then decrying the fact that all of that personal information is lost forever when the laptop was stolen after being left at a local $coffeenazi shop.

How's the interface for the Zen, or playlist management using whatever software you have? That's more important to me than whether i can give copies of my music to my friends.

Re:Just say NO, bought a Zen

[Anonymous Coward]

It's in my pocket playing music, and astonishingly it works!

And this differs from most people's use of the iPod in what manner?

I mean, my used iPod Classic plays music. I feed it music, it plays music. Done. Fancy? Special? Outlandish? No, no, and no. It plays music. That's all I particularly care about it. Sure, my next music player may not be (with things like this, probably will not be) an iPod, but that will hopefully be a long way off, given that, well, this one is still playing music. Which is its job. Which is why I'm not frothing at the mouth over this.

Seriously, if you hate hate HATE it, don't buy it. Then you wouldn't have any reason to complain. Or, as is the case with you, to preach to the choir and brag about your l33t non-Appleness.

Re:Just say NO, bought a Zen

[Piranhaa]

Zen is locked down the same, if not more than the iPod. You HAVE to use Windows(R) and good luck using any other operating system. Sure, it lets you do a bit more with the device, but definitely aren't comparable trade offs.

I had a Sandisk Sansa with Rockbox on it. However, I lightly tossed it into my duffel bag (yes it WAS a light toss into my duffel bag), and the screen cracked. If it had been an iPod, you could order a new screen of eBlahy and swap it out easily (they are replaceable). This is not the case on the Sansa. The screen is SOLDERED with about 20-40 of the tiniest pin points imaginable. I went to a 8gb Gen3 Refurb'd Nano. I am locked to iTunes (however, I've never spent a penny on their music), but I can use it on my OSx system OR a Windows system if I choose. The iPod Dock is also really the only connection that's stayed around for (8?) years. I have a dock connector on the back of my car's deck as well, which lets me control my iPod from my deck.

And yes, I'm in Canada as well, so sharing music isn't illegal. However, if bill C-61 gets introduced and passed with the Conservatives (and I did vote Conservative - better than seeing a huge increase in taxes with EVERY other party), we're all screwed with copying/sharing - and not just music.. ALL DRM/electronic 'locking' mechanism schemes.

Re:Just say NO, bought a Zen

[Creepy Crawler]

If you are on Linux, go try out Amarok.

My GF got me an Ipod, nice gift considering it was a 60GB. However, I had a rather nasty problem. When I used Itunes on my server (about 120k songs) it died a rather nasty molass-ey death. It took Windows down to 1MHz speed and took down the whole machine. Yuck.

I eventually got rid of Windows (well, not quite, I emulate a X86 environ via VBox) and installed Ubuntu on my Thinkpad T61 with all intel hw. After that, everything on Linux just works thanks to Thinkwiki. Well... I had my ipod stored away cause Windows farted at it. Instead, I loaded up Amarok and lo and behold! The program scanned my whole library in one (very long) fell swoop. After it was done, I queued up discographies of musicians whom I liked and it just works.

Well, considering my iPod was a 5th gen video, I also installed Rockbox on it. Damn, now THAT is some serious music playing software, and open to boot.

Also, aside from that, a friend had a bunch of music on a Zen and couldnt pull it from the player (she had a mac). I ended up extracting every song perfect using Amarok. Turns out, Amarok doesnt support the stupid "Dont get songs from MTP devices" crap that windows follows.

Re:Just say NO, bought a Zen

[ZmeiGorynych]

Well, for example when I connected my iPod to a USB port to recharge it, fucking iTunes saved my on the go playlist (without my asking for it), meaning if I add any more songs on the go, they go into a different list, so I can't get a continuously growing on the go list without figuring out how to merge playlists in iTunes (is that even possible?). And if I access my iPod from Amarok under Linux and then connect it to iTunes, it wipes playlists. And I can't copy the songs from my ipod to a machine other than the one they were synced from. And, and , and...

With my last ipod, I ended up playing a game seeing how to throw it against the pavement so it bounces as high as possible. I now own a SanDisk Sansa View, and while it has its share of problems, it doesn't stop me from accessing it however I want, and only does things when I tell it to. No more ipods for me.

Mirrored!

[NeuralAbyss]

It's not that hard to mirror said content outside the US..

Unusual tagging...

[Kabuthunk]

Why is this article tagged "outbreak of stupidity"? In reality, it should be tagged "same ol', same ol'". An outbreak of stupidity would imply that wasn't already the norm.

Re:Unusual tagging...

[Ginger Unicorn]

although with the number of articles that are tagged "suddenoutbreakofcommonsense" on slashdot, the "suddenoutbreak" part has started to sound a bit daft. more like "constantreportsofcommonsense". Or "weshouldallprobablystopbeingsonihilisticandcynical"

Dear Apple

[seeker_1us]

Thanks, I will never be buying any of your products.

I'll stick with building my own systems, and installing Linux, and I'll use digital music players that support Ogg-vorbis.

It is quite obvious that you do not want any customer you cannot control.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

I hate to say it but unless you're a gay art student with plenty of free time to sit around in Starbucks drinking Moccacoccanoccachinos, Apple won't let you buy one... you're nowhere near enough of a fashionable but oppressed minority with elitist tendencies.

Re:Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

you go, Girl! ^snap!^

MediaMonkey?

[MoFoQ]

I've been using the latest version of MediaMonkey which supports iPhone 2.0/2.1.
The moment I found out, I was hella happy; dTunes (not iTunes) has it's advantages but it isn't as integrated as "Mobile Player"
dTunes for one, doesn't support categorization of any sort, let alone any of the advanced features such as play/stop via the mic "squeeze" switch.

Move the project

[MacColossus]

Can't the project be moved to the forums at thepiratebay.org? :-) They have a little history with Apple legal notices. http://static.thepiratebay.org/apple_response.txt

The web site was not about breaking Fairplay.

[Anonymous Coward]

It is worth pointing out that the letter that the lawyers sent claimed that the web site contained information about breaking the DRM found in iTunes, but that is not the case.

The web site contained information on how to be able to *read and write* the iTunes database, to allow you for example to use your iPod from Linux and update the song list.

What happened is that recent versions of the firmware and iTunes now use a secret hash that they compute over the *directory listing*. If the hash does not match, then the iPod/iPhone refuses to load the database. So this is effectively a mechanism to prevent third-parties to upload un-DRMed songs to the iPhone/iPod and had nothing to do --as the lawyer claimed-- with breaking the DRM in the files themselves.

You have to wonder if these lawyers or Apple are not in overstepping some legal boundaries, they could be liable for lying.

Re:The web site was not about breaking Fairplay.

[profplump]

It's just to stop third-party interfaces. It has nothing whatever to do with DRM-encumbered media files -- the Apple-provided interface is perfectly happy to let you load media files with our without DRM.

The "lockdown" is new...

[BlueScreenOfTOM]

You could always buy a used 5th Gen iPod. I have a 5.5 Gen and I don't have a single AAC file, but I've still got over 30 GB of music on it. I can plug my iPod into any Windows or Mac and copy any music off of it whenever I want with no restrictions (admittedly with the help of some freeware which reads the iTunes index files). The iPod is just a hard drive that stores it's MP3s with a funky naming scheme in a hidden folder.

This "lockdown" is relatively new if you use plain old MP3s instead of AAC. And part of the reason I bought an iPod was because every audio device made in the last 5 years seems to have a nifty direct interface...

Re:The "lockdown" is new...

[profplump]

Exactly what does the iPod do to "lockdown" AAC files that it doesn't do to MP3 files?

Re:The "lockdown" is new...

[BlueScreenOfTOM]

I have no idea, I can't speak from experience, except that I know that AAC can have DRM and MP3 doesn't. So I'm guessing that, while you might be able to get AAC files off an iPod, if they're DRM'd you won't necessarily be able to play them everywhere.

Re:The "lockdown" is new...

[Yvan256]

Ripping to AAC won't put DRM on your own files. Heck, even the "iTunes Plus" tracks have no DRM (and they're 256kbps too).

Re:The "lockdown" is new...

[Anonymous Coward]

You could always buy a used 5th Gen iPod.

Yep, he sure could. Or he could just get something good instead. But yeah, ok, smart shoppers check the used market.

Re:The "lockdown" is new...

[stewbacca]

The DRM doesn't affect iPods at all. There is no limit to the number of iPods you can put songs on. The drm only affects the number of personal computers that are authorized to play the file.

Not a DMCA takedown notice

[KeithIrwin]

Interestingly enough, that's not a DMCA takedown notice. It's just a threat dressed up to look like a takedown notice. You can tell because it doesn't allege copyright infringement.

Notice, for instance, that the "DMCA Certification" part at the bottom says "I hereby state, under penalty of perjury, that I have a good faith belief that the activities identified above are not authorized by Apple, that the information in this notification is accurate, and that I am authorized to act on behalf of Apple in this regard."

What it doesn't say is that the works in question are owned by Apple or anything else which in anyway makes a copyright claim.

What it does allege is that they're violating the anti-circumvention provision of the DMCA. There is no takedown procedure for violating the anti-circumvention provision because there is no safe-harbor. If you create an circumventing device, you have violated the DMCA and you can't escape liability by following takedown notices.

The further reason that it isn't a DMCA takedown notice is that what they ask to remove is not something that the receivers have a legal obligation to take down. Information about the workings of Apple's cryptographic schemes, whether or not they comprise an means which effectively controls access to a work, are not unto itself a device which circumvents their schemes, and, as such, is not in violation of the DMCA.

Although Mr. Ramage writes "The DMCA explicitly prohibits the dissemination of information that can be used to circumvent such technology." that's very simply not true. The DMCA outlaws the creation of circumventing devices, but it does not outlaw exchanging information about how to create one. This, along with the research exception, is why DRM and other security research can still happen and has only rarely been hindered by the DMCA, and even then only by the specter of lawsuits.

Beyond that, Apple's hash scheme quite certainly doesn't apply for DMCA protection for one simple reason: it isn't a scheme which, under the definitions of the DMCA, "effectively protects a copyrighted work." There are two distinct reasons why it doesn't qualify. First, it doesn't protect copyrighted files. It only protects the database which is not copyrighted and not eligible for copyright since it is not a creative work. Second, the hash protects it against modification, not reading. As such, it does not "effectively protect a copyrighted work" because the legal definition refers only to protecting something from being read in an unauthorized manner, not from being written.

So, this might have been a valid takedown notice if:
1) The hash in question were an effective measure under the legal definition
2) It were protecting copyrighted information
3) The DMCA outlawed the dissemination of information which could lead to creating circumvention devices
4) There were a safe-harbor provision allowing service providers to avoid liability

Except that the actions so far also all fall under the interoperability exception. Given that their only goal is to allow other programs to work with the iPod, this falls very, very squarely under interoperability exception.

So, there would also have to be a fifth condition;
5) There were no interoperability exception.
As it stands, this notice has no legal standing, and if it were sent to me, I would ignore it. Hopefully the lawyers with whom this project consults will come to the same conclusion.

Now, what Apple could do instead would be to assert copyright over the disassembled/decompiled versions of the source code which appeared on the web page. I would argue that that approach would also be legally invalid, but at least it wouldn't be so obviously so. It could at least lead to some fairly subtle legal arguments.

This notice, on the other hand, is just factually and legally incorrect.

Re:Not a DMCA takedown notice

[fuzzyfuzzyfungus]

Wow, that is super sleazy.

Re:Not a DMCA takedown notice

[HTH NE1]

So, this might have been a valid takedown notice if:
3) The DMCA outlawed the dissemination of information which could lead to creating circumvention devices

Distribution of DRM'd information leads to the creation of circumvention devices. That's not correlation; that is causation!

Re:Not a DMCA takedown notice

[Anonymous Coward]

You fail at understanding the definition of "which."

Re:Not a DMCA takedown notice

[Anonymous Coward]

No, you fail at identifying the prepositional phrase.

Re:Not a DMCA takedown notice

[Anonymous Coward]

I didn't even considering the other aspects of the DMCA just the fact that they're obviously working on interoperability.

Re:Edirol R09

[fishbowl]

I never wanted a music "player". I wanted a recorder. For one thing, I make my own music. For another thing, I listen to .wav format, not MP3. For another thing, my average track is 45 to 90 minutes long and doesn't originate from a CD rip. When I want to hear relatively mainstreamish, low-fi things, I have internet radio for that. But most of my listening time is spent on things where I have some involvement in its production, and usually in a situation where I or my client or my partner controls the copyright. Sure there are better pocket-sized recorders than my Edirol, but I have what I need and it's pretty danged good; at least as good as my studio mixer or my DAW. And the built-in mics are okay (just okay).

This might be on purpose...

[Anonymous Coward]

After all, they can't help any open-source projects directly, or the record labels would take their content and go home. Without content, the iPod is worthless. Maybe this is a sneaky means to get people to work out the new hash? The labels make them take "measures" against you using the content you paid for, so they half-ass the enforcement of said measures until they have sufficient footing to challenge them directly...

new term

[Anonymous Coward]

I want to coin a new term for this DRM crap:

Vendor Lock In - User Lock Out

Is this one of the first non-euphemistic terms for DRM?

Re:new term

[otis wildflower]

Is this one of the first non-euphemistic terms for DRM?

Not really, I'm afraid, but it's pretty good.. I also quite like "Treacherous Computing"...

Re:new term

[ameyer17]

There's also "Fair Use Circumvention Kit".

DMCA allows reverse engineering

[flyingfsck]

for compatibility. So I don't think Apple has a case.

Re:DMCA allows reverse engineering

[ChadL]

http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20050221-4636.html
This seems to be the same as the Lexmark vs SCC case a while back. Took a while, but SCC finally won.

For the lazy: Static Control Components made a chip that got around an authentication procedure between the cartage and the printer to prevent refills of the cartage. Lexmark got an injunction, SCC appealed, and finally won.

Mod Parent UP

[argent]

Mod parent up "informative" and "bloody fascinating".

Standing?

[Sloppy]

Is Apple claiming to be the copyright holder of the database that the iPod firmware prevents access to?

They have no real DMCA case here, and would lose if only people could afford the court costs. Maybe a music copyright holder would have standing if someone defeated Fairplay itself, but the applicability to the database hashing is pretty damn iffy.

wow, and check this out

[Sloppy]

The DMCA explicitly prohibits the dissemination of information that can be used to circumvent such technology.

Uh, no, actually it explicitly prohibits trafficking in "technology, product, service, device, component, or part thereof," not necessarily all information. You can persuade a judge that Congress meant to restrict speech in addition to those other things, but don't say it "explicitly prohibits" speech, because it obviously doesn't.

Re:wow, and check this out

[Anonymous Coward]

Uhhh now read the next sentence. Do you see the respondent actually said that what the Apple lawyer said was incorrect? You should be modded as -5 Because you obviously did not read the full response before getting outraged

I can avoid Apple, but not Microsoft

[Anonymous Coward]

You can avoid Apple products but you can't avoid Windows products. Even if Apple had a monopoly on music players, I can still get a Sansa and use a whole host of standardized analog (stereo-mini) and digital (USB) means to work with it along with FOSS music players and DRM-free stores (Amazon or plain-old CDs). These are by no means shuttered out to me just because Apple has decided to standardize on their proprietary dock connector, iTunes, and iTMS.

Microsoft, on the other hand, has forced me to buy into their Windows+Office world to communicate in my industry. AND they have been shown to use this monopoly to prevent competing products from arising in all but niche areas.

Seems like two completely different animals to me. Sure they both suck, but I don't have to care about Apple.

Re:I can avoid Apple, but not Microsoft

[QuantumRoot]

Is that so?
Me, I know a number of people who don't run Windows at home. I even know some who don't run Windows at work. I'm not sure what industry you work in, but even if you have to use Windows at work, no one is forcing you to at home. You can avoid it other than for your job. And frankly, work is work. There are lots of things you can't avoid at $work, unless you change jobs.

Same ass send same message to iFuse

[mycroes]

The iFuse project that aims to support some of the iphone and ipod touch features under linux got about the same message, from the same dickhead lawyer. Basically they told him to go fuck himself (they didn't try to make it polite), because he has nothing to do with apple. Someone should revoke this guy's license...

Apple is what apple does

[slashdotlurker]

Its not enough for them to charge the suckers an arm and a leg for their products. They also need to control what you paid good money for and what you own.
Control freaks.

iTunes Lock-In

[Oceanplexian]

The problem with the iTunes hashing mechanism is that it's purpose isn't to protect music but to protect the ipod/iphone library file.

This takedown is essentially trying to lock out 3rd party media players (Winamp, Amarok, etc) under the guise of content protection.

Re:iTunes Lock-In

[base3]

Mod parent up. If Microsoft did this, people would be calling for a Justice department anti-trust investigation and Steve Ballmer's head on a pike. But when Apple does it, people inhale Steve's stale farts like they were the essence of sunshine and rainbows.

Hmmm

[jav1231]

If I had to guess I'd venture that Ian's email address is actually IRamage - at - omm.com. You know, should anyone care to send an email. His profile can be found at http://www.omm.com/ianramage/

Why no mention of iTunes forcing QuickTime?

[hyperwall]

This was probably the biggest thing that bothered me about iTunes, and was the first thing I removed when I installed the latest version of "iTunes + QuickTime." I think I can speak for many people when I say QuickTime has to be one of the worst media players out there. I have been on Media Player Classic for years now and don't think I could ever go back to anything else. With support for a QuickTime alternative that works in a tiny media player with huge functionality (minus a library, but that is what windows explorer plus drag and drop is for.) All I wanted was to point iTunes to one directory to look in for my music (another local user on my Windows PC) and I could not find any options for it. I figured maybe they would have it in the latest version, but alas a product that "just works" will "just work" the way Apple intends for it to. I am now a Songbird user and will stay on it as long as I have my iPod. At least it will let me use part of my brain and add some functionality to my software.

In short I refuse to keep QuickTime on my PC as it is a load of garbage (i mean who hides the auto-start feature in the web preferences?). This for me was reason enough to finally dump iTunes once and for all (not that I needed any more.) When my iPod dies I will certainly look for an alternative media player that works the way I want it to.

Control Freaks

[Nom du Keyboard]

Apple are a bunch of Control Freaks, and it has bitten them in their collective butts before, Macintosh being a great case in point. The open Apple ][ was a dominant machine that simply needed to transition to 16-bit processing and 20-bit address spaces. Instead the closed Mac lost out to the IBM PC with expansion slots and eventually clone hardware makers. Every time Apple turns the screws down even tighter they only give those willing to go either way another reason to eschew Apple in favor of other platforms.

While some fanboys will jump in to yell that Apple's gaining market share every quarter, the only place they lead is in iPods. In computers and phones they lag far behind and aren't looking to reach 50% of those markets in the foreseeable future.

Beware of the file limit

[ZmeiGorynych]

I almost bought one of those until I realized they can't deal with more than 9999 songs for the HD-based players and something like 3000 songs for the flash-based ones. That's right, a hard limit on number of songs, regardless of actual storage space. Cowons have great reviews otherwise, but I want _all_ of my music on my player, and the above is a killer.

If only they were not so inept & heavy-handed

[Bearhouse]

I've no problem accepting the terms of use for music that I've paid to download from Apple et al.
If you don't want to accept their terms, don't do it.

The only problem is when the entire protection system is so screwed that you cannot ALSO use the software - and legally-acquired songs - of your choice, rather than exclusively Big Brother's mandated stuff. Hiding behind the 'closed is required to make it safe and easy to use' figleaf just does not cut it anymore. Apple is the new IBM.

It's all hubris anyway, since the vast majority of content played on iStuff does not come from iTunes. No doubt Jobs would like to change this, and get us to download all our content via expensive mobile-phone tie-ins. That's - urm - not working so far.

So, the net effect is to push smart people into Songbird and Mediamonkey's arms, not to mention also in the direction of the nearest torrent site.

Own goal, Steve.

I won't buy another one

[speedtux]

I have a couple of iPods. I think the software that runs on them, as well as iTunes itself, is pretty mediocre. But the widespread hardware support and the fact that I could plug them in to a Linux system and they just worked made all of that bearable.

With the iPod Touch and its proprietary hash, Apple has crossed the line. With Apple's own software, the iPod Touch can't even be moved between desktop and laptop, and I don't have any option anymore other than to use Apple's shitty iTunes software. My next video player is going to be something like an Archos 5, and for music, a simple $50 no-name player does just fine.

So Hard Really?

[bill_mcgonigle]

Just what is the point of having ipod? Why can't the competitors to apple just sit down and devise a common method for syncing the device to a media player?

I'm looking at a Pioneer car stereo that has a USB connector on the front. A $20 flash drive will hold everything I could want for car listening, and it doesn't need physical space, and it's really small, and it doesn't need power, and it's not going to lose its battery overnight in a cold car.

Sounds great... but I'd like to have playcounts/playdates and podcast bookmarks saved so I can sync. This seems like a trivial job, but has anybody worked out a standard? .m3u isn't it.

Apple not as abusive as Microsoft (used to be?)

[Anonymous Coward]

Why hasn't the EU screwed apple already? The itunes-ipod abuse is like 10 times worse than IE-windows, yet nobody seems to be doing anything to stop this abusive non-sense.

One reason is because Apple does not have a monopoly. It's ok to mildly abuse your customers if they can go to one of your competitors.

ITMS is far from the sole provider of online music, and Apple is far from the sole provider of "mp3" players.

Apple has also not used its dominant position in the audio player market to kill off competition like MS did with Windows/IE and Netscape.

If you own an iPod you are free to purchase music from the iTunes store, from a retail via CDs, or from another (DRM-free) online retailer (Amazon, Magnatune). The iTMS also allows for DRM-free files where the copyright holder has allowed Apple to do so (sadly currently only EMI).

While ideally it would be cool if Apple would license FairPlay, I think it's better that they fight for DRM-free files.

Apple also tends to use standards without extending them, whereas Microsoft isn't well-known for that.

If you don't like the iPod system you are free to use other devices. However, if you don't like Windows your choices have, until recently, been very limited. Remember that the Microsoft was tried in the late '90s, when the Mac was still obscure and Linux was only started out. The situation of course has improved a lot (IMHO) since then from a competition perspective.

Re:Apple not as abusive as Microsoft (used to be?)

[jrumney]

Apple also tends to use standards without extending them, whereas Microsoft isn't well-known for that.

In this case, Microsoft has pushed its standard (the unextended version at least) as a standard and encouraged competitors to use it, while Apple tries to keep its proprietary protocol completely locked up through abuse of the DMCA.

Re:Apple not as abusive as Microsoft (used to be?)

[Vexorian]

Apple has also not used its dominant position in the audio player market to kill off competition like MS did with Windows/IE and Netscape. If you own an iPod you are free to purchase music from the iTunes store, from a retail via CDs, or from another (DRM-free) online retailer (Amazon, Magnatune). The iTMS also allows for DRM-free files where the copyright holder has allowed Apple to do so (sadly currently only EMI).

Basically, you are not, oh sure, it is possible, just as it was 'possible' to install netscape in windows.

Regardless of stores, there's basically no way a music player can compete with itunes, since you need to reverse engineer and break hashes just to do that. Just in another slashdot thread we had rants about songbird not being able to manage your iphone... These sort of devices to prevent itunes competition have a name, is it antit... something like that?

The difference between Microsoft and Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

With Microsoft, it's an case of man screwing his fellow man.
With Apple, it's the other way 'round.

(Sorry, old joke. "Capitalism is where man exploits his fellow man; with Communism, it's the other way around").

USB is a *fucking standard*

[DrYak]

pin density is one factor that certainly weighed on that decision.

We are in 2008. Why would you even need to have a separate pin for everything ?!?

We have very nice, completely standardized connection such as :
- USB (specially since the On-The-Go and Pict-Bridge standards where the same physical connector can switch between master and slave depending on needs).
- FireWire (which has the advantage of allowing several masters on the same bus and device sharing both master and slave role - just like SCSI. And has overall much better latency and bandwidth once you factor all possible overhead)

They are almost ubiquitous. Today it's hard to find a device which is NOT USB-enabled. (although not all FireWire connectors you may encounter are 6pins with power. 4pins data-only are popular on some portable device).

And they can easily do pretty much everything you cited and much-much more.

Audio/Video (+controls for it) over FireWire is just a piece of cake, the standard was created with that purpose in mind.

how would you create video out from a USB port?

- If the device is a master and is PUSHing video OUT, video-over USB was among the first standardized stuff, with USB-to-VGA dongle being very popular. It's already a very popular method to get 2ndary output from device which lack a VGA or DVI out. Or get a 3rd output.
- If the device is a slave and you are PULLing video FROM device, then a USB video device is perfect for it, just like thousands of Webcams, video receiver, etc. There's even an emerging standard called UVC - USB Video Class (Before UVC, every webcam USB chip used a different protocol requiring several different procols).

Given the sensitiveness of analog to electronic noise, digital video out makes A LOT of sense. And given that hosting the electronics for a DVI/HDMI/miniDisplay port would unnecessarily increase the costs of the device, the USB-to-VGA or UVC is the best compromise.

the radio

You must be joking. Just look at the crazy amount of USB FM+TV+DVB+DAB receiver dongles.
There's a custom version of the OpenMoko sold with such an USB receiver contained in a spacer between the battery and the original cover.

If you want a radio *emitter*, see next question about audio.

headphone adapter?

Still keeping with the everything over USB :
- USB audio is an absolutely standard protocol.
In fact dozens of headphone made for laptop/skype don't plug into the audio in/out ports, but instead plug into an USB port.
As USB Audio does both input and output, it doesn't matter which is master which is slave, you can establish an audio link over USB.

Now, plain analog audio has had a standard for many years : the simple 3mm Jack. For a quick and easy analog access you should leave an audio jack on the machine.

For even more practical solution, you could go for a 3 or 4 ring jack instead of a classical stereo one, and carry video, s-video and/or mic.
Put a LED on the bottom of the connector and it can also work as a nice digital out (Sony's MiniDisc already used hybrid optical+analog contacts for quite some time).
Put them in line with the usb at very specific distance one from each other and you have a perfect connector with both analog and digital.

The only reason not to do this is because by letting normal audio connection (jack), the constructor lose the incentive for users to buy the more expensive USB-based peripherals.

artist/song/albumart along with audio out for the dock devices?

That is just plain stupid.
All this meta-data you cite is never going to be transmitted by lots of dedicated pins.
Normally such kind of data is just emitted over a serial connection. (Even before the age of USB, Sony MiniDisc already used a serial link to transmit this. Audio goes through analog+optical jack, meta-data

Re:USB is a *fucking standard*

[rootofevil]

that doesnt address either of the major points:

battery life
early days of the dock connector when none of this existed.

the minidisc has additional pin connectors next to the audio jack for transmitting data - more proprietary connectors.

Lawsuit waiting to happen

[DrYak]

The only proprietary bit is the mapping from pins to signal formats, and this was reverse-engineered within a few weeks of the first iPods with a dock connector being released.

And Apple would probably happily unleash the lawyers against anyone implementing anything more than a hobby project using iPod-compatible pins.

Also the connector requires you to have yet one more different cable with you. Whereas, a sequence of USB + Firewire + multipupose jack can be plugged by standard cable like any other device.

USB On-the-Go

[DrYak]

Actually, a standard USB interface couldn't possibly provide such functionality because one end must be the host and the other the peer, but your suggestion requires that the media player be able to function as both

Yes, it can. It's called On-The-Go and is already used by lots of devices.

(Mainly smartphones and cameras).

Any USB interface which deviates from this practice is by definition non-standard.

OtG is an official supplement of USB 2.0. And OtG device can interact without any problem with plain USB slaves or USB masters.

Re:USB On-the-Go

[geekoid]

Now just go back in time and make it available when 4 years sooner so Apple could use it.

Ang you and I both know that if they changed you would be whining about them changing.

Requiem

[Anonymous Coward]

This does look like it's similar to the FairPlay DRM scheme. Requiem is supposed to break it. The source can be found here:

http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/4518884

Antitrust Laws

[Anonymous Coward]

There is a no tying two technologies together act in Antitrust law. Mind you I am not a lawyer so that is if I understand it correctly. This would make Apple one of the biggest abusers of Monopoly I could think of. You need a Mac to run OS X. You can't install whatever you want on your Touch. You need a cable with a special chip to do video out on the touch. I think technology copyright law is a mess cause the people making the rules don't understand technology enough. They tend to go overboard to make the people that would lobby happy, but screw the public in the process. Where is the democracy, the voices of the masses, in that?

Send feed back now

[Intrinsic]

Here is what I wrote to apple on the feedback section of their site.

So im writing you right now because I use your products and im seeing a uneasy trend going on with 6th gen devices... We have allot of people in the world that don't want to use ITunes for any reason and now you are forcing people to do so. I suggest that you rethink that policy. Part of using a music player is having the ability to have freedom of choice to use any software to sync music and music free of DRM restrictions, when you place restrictions on your device that prevents freedom you are treating people like children. you need to allow people to make their own choices and stop trying to restrict peoples freedom. Start now, before you lose an important base of customers.

Scott Larson

Uh? You are pirating there.

[jotaeleemeese]

The moment you rip the CD and then lend it to friends you are technically a copyright infringer.

I am not saying it should be any different, but lets not fool ourselves: legislation all around the world is aiming to make natural use of media like the one you describe illegal.

The interesting question is: if the majority of the public is most likely against this kind of pro-cartel legislation, how it comes that the few execs in the big corporations interested have more say with politicians than we, the people?

When politicians ask why people are disengaged from politics this is a perfect example of why: we know we are not the master of our elected representatives ....

The lesser evil

[acb]

If you have to choose either Windows or MacOS X for a platform (let's say, you need to run things not available on Linux; it happens), OSX is the lesser evil. It doesn't have the BluRay-mandated DRM infrastructure in the kernel making the system slow and fragile, and it is based on UNIX with some very elegant technologies on top. Apple's APIs are also considerably less horrendous than Microsoft's, at least since the move to Cocoa.

As far as audio players go, Apple are evil, though they seem to be the only people making decent-sized hard-disk-based players with a passable interface for going through large music collections (i.e., the iPod scroll wheel is a lot better than stabbing at the down button with your finger for 30 seconds as you make your way down the alphabet). Having said that, if someone made a player that did something similar but was mountable from Linux/UNIX, I'd be interested.

Dear Apple

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't fuck with Songbird. Thanks.

It plays apps

[tepples]

Just what is the point of having ipod?

Because unlike most other MP3 players, iPod Touch plays apps. Nintendo doesn't want Nintendo DS owners to play games that are developed in a home office. Apple, on the other hand, has no problems with homemade apps and games developed by Mac owners as long as they aren't trademark-infringing.

And so it goes

[geekoid]

Apple get's something good going, people like it..and then they let it evolve into a pain in the butt horror of it's former self.

Now that tye have competition, there going to be getting paranoid and try to control the things they can not control..and fail at it. I predict that in 3 years they will loose the gain they have made in the market in the last 5 years.

How does Steve Jobs reconcile being a

[geekoid]

Buddhist and making decisions that are against the core Buddhist beliefs?

And this is why I gave a G1.

[geekoid]

I was sitting on the fence between a new iPhone and a G1 Android. Thanks for making the decision easy, Steve.

mixed metaphor

[Spazmania]

That lawyer doesn't seem to know what's going on. A DMCA takedown notice is when you complain (under penalty of purgery) that a page is violating your copyrights and demand that it be removed. Apple makes no such complaint here, nor can they: the discussion does not infringe Apple's copyrights.

Instead Apple complains that the discussion violates a different portion of the DMCA. That's perhaps arguable, but the appropriate form of complaint would have been a cease-and-desist notice.