Valve's Gabe Newell On DRM

Ars Technica is running a story about recent comments by Valve's Gabe Newell in which he bluntly stated, "As far as DRM goes, most DRM strategies are just dumb. The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)." Ars then points out a response by Microsoft's Games for Windows Community Manager Ryan Miller suggesting Rockstar Games' recent decision not to have install limits for the PC version of GTA IV made the use of SecuROM acceptable. GameSetWatch has a related piece discussing the difficulty in measuring piracy and enforcing infringement laws.

Comments

I like Steam

[iamwhoiamtoday]

I really like how Steam currently works. Only one computer can be logged into the same account at a time, I can download / install all games on any computer, it works (mostly) in Wine. I also don't have to mess around with disks.

Steam seems to me to be a rather effective method of DRM. I can only be logged into the account from ONE computer at a time, and I can play my games. what's the problem?

Re:I like Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

My account was deactivated and they simply refused to tell me why, just that it was shut down due to suspicious activity (I had steam installed on about 6 computers that I own). They actually suggested I could create a new account and purchase the games again if i wanted to play. If you think you own the software you purchase through Steam, you are dead wrong. Valve can flip a switch and turn it off whenever they want. I'll never buy another game from steam or another Valve product ever again. I'll just download any new half life games from isohunt. the way I see it, they owe me about 350 dollars so I'll simply download anything I want to cover that

Re:I like Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

Actually, my fear with steam is not the account being disabled- that did happen once, they then fixed it after a week. But VAC bans, as in, someone steals your password, cheats on the account, gets it VAC'd, then you lose the value of every multiplayer game in your Steam account. They'll undo disables- they will NOT undo VAC bans.

Re:I like Steam

[Drinking Bleach]

Steam is basically the sanest solution to keep things clean for legitimate users. You just buy a game and download it, however many times you like or need. Pirates are always going to crack DRM, there's little reason to battle them only to punish legitimate users. See any torrent site and look for cracked versions of Valve games that no longer require Steam -- they're not hard to find, and it just furthers the point that pirates will do whatever to get a free lunch.

Steam is non-intrusive and allows all legitimate users to get and use games easily.

Re:I like Steam

[GFree678]

what's the problem?

Let's hope you don't want to resell a game you purchased from Steam.

Let's hope that VAC works perfectly and won't ban you from VAC servers by accident because you were running something perfectly legit which happened to trip its detection mechanism.

Let's hope that when Gabe says Valve will release an unlock tool so you can play your games when/if Valve ever collapses, he actually follows through.

Disclaimer: I've used Steam for years and continue to do so. I think it's great... as long as nothing goes wrong.

Re:I like Steam

[AuMatar]

Unless Steam decides you're not the owner, you lose the password, they think you're a cheater, etc. Then they take away all your games. I'll ignore DRM in bought games because it can be disabled, I will never buy a steam game.

Re:I like Steam

[D.A. Zollinger]

what's the problem?

The problem is that once you purchase the game, you cannot return it, you cannot sell it, and you cannot give it away/transfer it to another party.

As well, despite the fact that the steam version has no packaging costs, no printing costs, no warehousing costs, no stocking, shipping, or handling costs, you are still paying the same for the game as everyone else who bought it in the store.

Finally, the Steam store does not answer to market concerns, and operates arbitrarily. For example: In most stores, once the demand for a game has worn off, the price comes down in order to move the remaining copies of a game to make room for new games. In the Steam store, costs remain the same until the vendor authorizes a price reduction based on arbitrary decisions (increase sales volume, allow for pricing difference between game and sequel, etc.).

The technology embedded in Steam would allow for the first issue to be resolved, should Valve care to pursue this. As well, a second Steam store, not operated by Valve, yet accessible on the Steam system would ensure that the last two issues are properly addressed.

Re:I like Steam

[Patrik_AKA_RedX]

Yesterday I wanted to play Halflife during my lunch break on my laptop. Mind that this is my private laptop and therefore I've no internet connection at work. Ofcourse Steam decided that I can't play until I've reconnected to internet first.
Makes me wonder why I bought it instead of pirating it. I've had done the latter I would have been able to play.
Steam is a nice way to distribute games, but honestly the requirement to connect every so often is a pain in the ass for those of us who rarely find the time to play.

Re:I like Steam

[TheKidWho]

Steam is more than just DRM, it also provides cheating protection which is why the older games now require it for online play.

Re:I like Steam

[anomnomnomymous]

Wow, somehow I don't believe a thing of what you're saying there: How convenient of you to post as an AC...

I had some small problems with my creditcard not being accepted (after already having bought a few games over Steam that way), and my account getting locked.
It took one email, where they immedeately re-activated the account, and told me that they found the use of the CC suspicious (as I was staying in the UK at the time; not the country I had been buying the previous games from).

A friend of mine was also locked out of his account, and also had the same customer-focused replies that I got.

So quit the bullshitting, or put your money where your mouth is and at least post under a non-anonymous nickname.

Re:I like Steam

[El_Muerte_TDS]

So what that he posted AC, it doesn't change the fact that Valve has a kill switch for your steam account and therefore all games associated with that. That's a form of DRM I also don't like. And for that reason I don't play steam games.

Re:I like Steam

[Leonard Fedorov]

Because all pubishments for cheating infringement are handled completely via steam's account system - aka VAC bans.

Re:I like Steam

[Burnhard]

IANAL, but you should have legal redress if you haven't broken the TOS. My nephew got a VAC ban for using a "wall hack". In effect he had to start a brand new steam account because he only played VAC based multi-player games. In fact the only people I've heard about who have had their accounts disabled or VAC bans are almost always cheating/hacking in some way or engaged in some other nefarious activity.

So the trade-off with Steam is as follows: you have the convenience of having a delivery platform you can take anywhere, it's easy to purchase/patch new games, you don't have to faff about with CD's. The downside is you share ownership with Steam - which means you can't hack/crack/etc. without the possibility of losing your purchases. In my view the benefits to me as a gamer outweigh the costs, because I don't hack to run cracked/downloaded games.

Re:I like Steam

[Kattspya]

Hmmm... looks like you're right. The normal behavior for STEAM is to just fall back to offline mode when it can't reach the servers. I just disabled my network connection and tried to start STEAM and it wouldn't run in offline mode. After going online without updating anything and then trying again offline mode worked fine. Perhaps there is some silly timeout or maybe it bugs out but that behavior isn't acceptable. Try contacting customer support and ask what the hell is up.

Re:I like Steam

[DigitalisAkujin]

Steam has an offline mode. A little bit of reading would have told you that.

Re:I like Steam

[MR.Mic]

Uncheck "Don't save account credentials on this computer" in steam settings.
Then you only have to log in once, and the computer will allow you to go into offline mode any time after that.

It works for my laptop when I can't get wifi when traveling.

Re:I like Steam

[ion.simon.c]

When HL2EP1 was launched, I did buy it, brought home an start installing. After keeeping my CPU 100% for 2 hours...

There's this newfangled invention called DMA. You might wanna look into it.

Re:I like Steam

[ion.simon.c]

Yeppers. That works for me, too.

Re:I like Steam

[ion.simon.c]

See, it's comments like this that make me suspect that Steam really gets a free pass with gamers, *probably* because it's from Valve.

Agreed.

Translation: "Again, I am so glad it limits me to one computer. Also, it lets me play "my" game as long as the server is around

Valve has said that they'll free all purchased games if they ever go out of business. OTOH, that's just words, so... *shrug*

Re:I like Steam

[TheRaven64]

I used to play a lot of Half Life mods, particularly CounterStrike. When Steam came out, I installed it and used it a bit, but it had numerous issues and when I had to reinstall Windows I didn't put it back. Since I bought Half Life, I still have the option of playing the last pre-Steam version (although I don't know if anyone still runs servers for it). I wrote to Gabe at the time to explain my decision when I got the 'you haven't logged in to your Steam account for 30 days' email, and explained that I would not be buying any future games that required Steam.

Given the number of people who defend Steam on /. I think he's probably right about people not caring about the DRM. For me, it's a simple question of value. Anything I buy from Steam, or any other DRM source, only works as long as the seller wants it to work. It's the equivalent of something bought 'sold as seen' from a dodgy guy at a car boot sale. It may or may not ever work, but if it's cheap enough then I might consider it. Steam games are not cheap enough to warrant this risk.

Re:I like Steam

[Nocterro]

It may or may not ever work, but if it's cheap enough then I might consider it. Steam games are not cheap enough to warrant this risk.

The award winning Audio-surf was recently sold at a cost of $2 on Steam for a week. I grabbed it, and it's a cool little game. Not everything on Steam is a full traditional game; it has a wide range.

Re:I like Steam

[Atriqus]

I've logged into plenty more than 6 computers with my steam account. Either they like me much more than you, or the suspicious activity in question was something other than the installation count.

Re:I like Steam

[Moryath]

I won't touch Steam.

It's not that the games don't interest me, it's (a) the fact that I'm exposing my machine to their kill-switch and (b) the fact that I should never, EVER have to go through "activation" bullshit to play a single-player game.

Steam carries DRM. I do everything in my power to (a) remove DRM from the things I purchase where it cannot be avoided and (b) avoid it the rest of the time.

Sorry, Valve. You get in bed with DRM, you lose business. THAT is how DRM really works.

Re:I like Steam

[sleeponthemic]

First of all, posting anonymously would be wise when you're making the point that you intend to pirate games to your hearts content - and I'm sure that was the motive in doing so. Not to mention the trivial nature of signing up for another account here, anyway.

Secondly, if you take the time to consider what is being said here, you will realise that prompt answers from Steam when they're after your money do not in any way indemnify them from other customer service nightmares. You can do a chargeback on them within a period of time so it is no gigantic surprise that they play nice in billing you. Furthermore, you're talking about communication with billing, as opposed to what is probably more specifically an account misbehaviour team issue and hence, another department and completely irrelevant to your own experiences with consist of a paltry 2 of the millions of customer interactions steam experience (but somehow using this massive sample allowing you to assume you're right and he's making it up).

All in all, I call bullshit on your weak reasoning.

Re:I like Steam

[TheNinjaroach]

I like Steam, too. I have a sneaking suspicion that the authentication servers for Steam will be around for much longer than I could have ever held onto my installation media. The model works better for me than dealing with scratched disks and empty CD cases.

I can download / install all games on any computer, it works (mostly) in Wine. I also don't have to mess around with disks.

I found out I can move my Steam folder to any PC and "it just works" with valid credentials. I was delighted to see that I can run all of my HL-2 games under Wine, executing them straight off my Windows partition. The only thing I have to change are my display preferences, the resolution always gets reset when I swap OSes on it.

Re:I like Steam

[gcnaddict]

"Let's hope that VAC works perfectly and won't ban you from VAC servers by accident because you were running something perfectly legit which happened to trip its detection mechanism."

PROTIP: VAC is triggered by the detection of entire known binaries. You can't trip it accidentally without having the cheating mechanism on-disk, and if you do have it on-disk... well that's your fault.
I always wonder why there's some poor cheater who comes up with this "I was banned but I didn't cheat" excuse, because it doesn't hold up at all when others know how VAC works.

Re:I like Steam

[hal9000(jr)]

Off-line mode only works if you go into off-line mode *while still on-line*. A little bit of trail and error would have told you that.

Re:I like Steam

[MyDixieWrecked]

Does steam require an internet connection to play, though?

That's one of my big problems with DRM in general. I've run across it with iTunes purchases (the reason I don't buy off itunes anymore unless it's something I can't find anywhere else or I just want one track) and I've had the problem with my 360 in the past, too.

At my last apartment, the cable modem was spotty at best during the evenings for months. I was unable to play my xboxlivearcade games on my 360 because the latency on the 'net wasn't allowing me to log into xboxlive. It was a total pain in the ass.

When I was traveling several years ago, I brought my powerbook and wasn't able to listen to any of my itunes purchases. There was no internet at the hotel in Phoenix, so the entire trip, I was without a small portion of my music library. This may have been a fluke, though, since I thought that the machine would have a key to play the tracks even if you're offline... or maybe they've fixed that, since, but it's annoying nonetheless.

My biggest issue with DRM'd music/video is that typically, you get a product with far inferior quality and more restrictions for use for about the same price. I'd rather buy the CD and mp3 it myself or buy the DVD and rip it so I can play it on my ipod/iphone/laptop/360/desktop. The digital versions that vendors provide are strictly convenient to purchase and nothing more.

Re:I like Steam

[reddrakos]

I enjoy steam very much as well, I would like to change one thing about it though...you should be able to 'transfer' games between accounts. My brother is all the time buying games and he then gives them to me after he is done with them. I wish we could have our own accounts so that he could transfer them to me when he is finished with one.

Re:I like Steam

[robot_love]

Sorry, Valve. You get in bed with DRM, you lose business. THAT is how DRM really works.

...except Valve is doing quite well and selling a lot of games. Something about your logic isn't right.

Re:I like Steam

[ch1lly]

Translation: "It doesn't work all the time with Linux and it doesn't give me a physical copy to have as a backup. I love it!"

You can have discs if you want them. Steam includes a tool to backup your games. Plus you can buy the games in retail which comes with the discs of course if you prefer.

Re:I like Steam

[internerdj]

It requires an internet connection to register, but not to play. I'm sure that can still be a deal breaker for some people. My experience is limited to Valve games, I haven't had any problem with any of the games I own.

Re:I like Steam

[Chaos Incarnate]

You can still play it just fine; there just aren't any servers for it, or a master server anymore. (If there were regular servers left, you could still connect via the console.) Neither of those are uncommon occurrences for a game three years old, much less ten.

Re:I like Steam

[Seq]

As I've said for a while, Steam is an excellent implementation of a bad idea.

I don't like DRM, but somehow Steam manages to do it without any intrusion. As Impulse seems to be leaning toward that path, I hope they are very careful to not add intrusive restrictions (basically just anti-concurrency, like Steam)

I consider it unfortunate that Steam even supports third-party DRM, though. Now I need to read about a particular game to find out that, despite Steam's assurances and capabilities, the game will still be limited to 5 installs (X3:Terran Conflict, Farcry 2, Bioshock).

Valve has promised to release an update freeing Steam purchased games in an end-of-life scenario. Unfortunately it won't help these third-party games that use securom. You'll just be SOL.

Re:I like Steam

[kalirion]

I hate the fact that you're still dependent on logging into Steam to play the game. Sure, you can set it for "offline" mode, but to do that you have to, guess what, Log In! So your internet connection goes down, or Steam rolls out a huge update and everybody and their grandmother are pushing steam servers into non-responsiveness (as happened with the TF2 update earlier this year), what then? You can't play HL2 Episode 3 or whatever other single player game you purchased through them until the connection's back.

Other than that, it's nice to play without worrying about CDs or malware installed on your computer to make publishers feel more secure.

Re:I like Steam

[travbrad]

So to activate off-line mode you have to be on-line? *head explodes*

The only games I play on steam are online/multi-player anyway, so not a big deal for me. For people wanting to play single-player or against bots though, that's completely retarded. Better off pirating if you are playing single-player games I guess..

Re:I like Steam

[jatriska]

Same here, though they did claim to have a reason for deactivating my account.

They told me I had been cheating -- which is odd given I had a dialup connection (which makes Steam all the more fun) and had never played a multiplayer session as a result of said dialup connection.

They told me it was impossible for my account to have been compromised and if I wanted to play, I should go out and buy the games all over again.

Re:I like Steam

[travbrad]

Meh, kind of. It does permanently ban people if they get caught cheating, but their detection system is nearly worthless. For Counter-Strike Source alone there are probably 100+ different hacks (aimbots, wallhacks, no-recoil, etc) that simply don't get detected.

Re:I like Steam

[MyDixieWrecked]

maybe I'll register for that... I'm curious how left4dead plays on a PC (as opposed to my 360).

Other than that, I can't think of any games I'd wanna play on the service.

I mostly only game when I don't have access to an internet connection since 90% of what I do on my computer requires it... it kinda sucks that I'm so dependent on the internets.

Re:I like Steam

[Sj0]

If you can get into the account, why not just gift your main account with the games?

If you can't get into your account, doesn't it make sense that they wouldn't remove games from an account you can't really prove is yours?

Re:I like Steam

[HAKdragon]

I was unable to play my xboxlivearcade games on my 360 because the latency on the 'net wasn't allowing me to log into xboxlive.
 
When you buy games on Xbox Live, the purchase gets attached to two things, your account and the system on which you bought the game. If you've only owned one console, then you should be able to play the game without having to connect to Live. If you have your account on a second (or third) system, then you can play the full game as long as you're logged into Live. If you've gotten a replacement system, then Microsoft does have a license transfer tool on xbox.com

Re:I like Steam

[Hatta]

Have you considered taking them to court? $350 is about the right amount to make it worthwhile going to small claims court. The nice thing about small claims court, no lawyers. I'd argue that the clauses in their TOS allowing them to terminate service on a mere belief of wrongdoing, with no appeal or arbitration process, or refund of any kind are unconscionable. Look into it. At the very least, you'll cause Valve $350 worth of trouble, and it might even make a nice story for /.

Re:I like Steam

[MunchMunch]

"You can have discs if you want them. Steam includes a tool to backup your games." Plus you can buy the games in retail which comes with the discs of course if you prefer."

Thanks, I did not know that you could back them up after downloading them.

However, the disc is still basically just a big authorization key, since what really allows you to play or not is the server. So having a disc is really just misleading you into believing you 'own' something.

Though kind of moot since apparently most of Slashdot (though not you, thankfully) would rather just mod me troll than respond to my arguments. :)

Re:I like Steam

[Bombula]

The problem is that once you purchase the game, you cannot return it, you cannot sell it, and you cannot give it away/transfer it to another party.

This is the 'software as a service' model. You don't own a product, and the license to use the service is itself not a product either. So you have nothing you can sell or trade. You have no asset, in other words. This makes you vulnerable because unlike with a product, to get any utility from a service you are totally dependent upon the service provider.

Re:I like Steam

[SScorpio]

Steam doesn't let you gift games out of an account. It's true that you can purchase games and then gift them to someone, but once a attached to an account it can't get sent to someone else. This prevents people from being able to trade games with one another which is one of my main issues with digital downloads and the new installation limits in newer games.

Re:I like Steam

[Ornedan]

Also, it's "go out of business". What if EA or other DRM-happy giant corporation buys them out?

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

And that's the reason I am began to get more interested in console games. PC games are getting to crippled. The license is mine and I should have the right to pass it along just as a xbox or PS3 disk.

They will just plain kill pc gaming if this becomes a trend

Re:I like Steam

[Chris Burke]

Given the number of people who defend Steam on /. I think he's probably right about people not caring about the DRM.

Most people don't care about DRM as long as they don't notice it, and that includes /.ers. Some care based solely on principle, some care because they don't trust any DRM to be unnoticeable. Most just want to play a game they paid for, and if DRM doesn't stop them from doing that then no, they don't care. There are no articles about xbox DRM because you never see it, you stick a game into your console and it plays.

Steam's DRM is mostly harmless, most of the time. Thus it falls beneath most people's thresholds of caring. When it actually breaks, like the AC post above describes, then damned right people will care even if they didn't even know what DRM was before. They may even become distrustful of DRM in general. That won't necessarily affect the opinions of people for whom it is working.

So I think he is right, to the extent that DRM is done "right" and is unobtrusive and doesn't break your games. As time goes on, as DRM becomes more common, and more people get bit by it, then there will be more people who will consider the potential for DRM to break their games, and more people will care.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

Agreed. But I still wanna play Half Life 2 on a DRM-free way

Re:I like Steam

[MyDixieWrecked]

my account has lived on many different units... my account originally lived on my old roommate's xbox which RRoD'd and was repaired/replaced 6 times, so far (it RRoD'd again last month and he still hasn't gotten it back)... I've since purchased my own 360 which is where my account lives now.

I've also transfered my account to my friend's unit to show him some XBLA games without him needing to purchase his own copy.

I guess I'll look into the license transfer tool.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

You say so until you, as a legitimate user, asks them for something (like a license transfer) and get a no-no as an answer.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

In fact the only people I've heard about who have had their accounts disabled or VAC bans are almost always cheating/hacking in some way or engaged in some other nefarious activity.

And what happen with those that don't? They get fucked and loose their money. No, thank's. Steam is out for me.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

In short. Steam improves things for the company and fucks-up the user. I agreed 100% with you

Re:I like Steam

[Cowmonaut]

If enough people give them the feedback, they'll add the features. Valve is smart and actually cares about their customers (my experience, and the experience of every gamer I know or met online). The main issues with Steam's DRM are that they A) can kill your account anytime they want and B) you "need" an Internet connection even if you buy the physical media.

In regards to A, then I hope you never play any MMO or online game. Period. You've been able to get your accounts banned for a while. I DO agree that it should be a per game basis with Steam. So if you get banned on Counter Strike you can still play Half Life Deathmatch online. But Valve doesn't have any incentive to ban people unless they cause an issue for others. They make money on you having your account and buying MORE games later.

As to B, they've been improving this and now its just the initial setup from my experience that needs a 'Net connection. Since I like my games being up to date this isn't an issue for me personally but some people like playing unpatched games I suppose. I DO wish Offline mode was the default though and you had to opt IN to it being online.

Re:I like Steam

[Omestes]

The iTunes thing is just odd, I've never had a problem with offline play. Right now I'm using a MacMini as my jukebox, and it hardly ever is online, yet it hasn't given me any problems with iTMS purchases. As far as DRM goes, iTunes is the best, its rather convenient, and non intrusive (which doesn't go so far, its like saying "as far as dictators go, Castro is the best"). You probably found a bug, or accidentally clicked "unauthorize", or such.

My problem with DRM such as Steam, is that it is only trustworthy in the short term. I have a CD wallet of hundreds of games, most of them old, and a large amount of them from defunct publishers. I enjoy reinstalling them, from time to time, and replaying them. With Steam this activity is dependent on whether or not Valve is in business 10 years from now, and whether or not they feel like keeping their Steam/authentication servers active all that time. Neither of these propositions I trust.

Imagine if the original Fallout games (Interplay = dead) required online authorization? Or Total Annihilation (Cave Dog = REALLY dead)? Both of these games I recently installed on my computer, which I couldn't do with current Valve products. Its like buying a book you can only read if the author is still alive, which makes very little sense.

I don't trust other people to keep my keys, fully realizing that times do change, and companies (no matter how strong they seem) die. It's my $50, and I might want to reclaim my value 10 years down the road.

The only ethical solution I've found so far is buying it, then downloading a cracked ISO and burning it (replacing the original disk). Yes, its still illegal, but I take upholding my ethics (I own what I purchase) over legal technicalities.

Re:I like Steam

[Omestes]

PROTIP: VAC is triggered by the detection of entire known binaries. You can't trip it accidentally without having the cheating mechanism on-disk, and if you do have it on-disk... well that's your fault.

As if software can never go wrong. False positives will always exist.

Yes, there is a very slim chance of it happening, but it still is possible.

There are other ways it can happen, like hacked accounts, or such.

Also... Having a cheating program on your HDD, is not the same thing as cheating. Isn't that somewhat a "thoughcrime"? It should only ban for ACTUALLY cheating, and not just having some software sitting about.

Re:I like Steam

[SScorpio]

The disks actually aren't an authorization key. The retail versions of Valve games come with a disk and a CD-key. You can start Steam and then select the activate production option and add the key. The game will then attach itself to your account and you can download the game if you want.

The disk just contains copies of the game's data files from it's initial release. It can save you a little bit of time with not having to download everything though.

You are right about the trick into making you thing you "own" something though.

Re:I like Steam

[fotbr]

Yet I've bought many more games via Steam than I would have if I had to go to the store to get them. I'm sure I'm not the only person who has done so.

If sales caused by Steam > sales lost because of Steam, how exactly is Steam bad for business?

In other words, if I run a business (say, a restaurant) and institute a no-children policy, thereby "losing" some business (parents bringing their children), but in the process I gain more business (people who want to eat without kids being around), why are the "lost" sales a negative?

Sorry, I couldn't think of a car analogy that would work.

Re:I like Steam

[halcyon1234]

The problem is that once you purchase the game, you cannot return it, you cannot sell it, and you cannot give it away/transfer it to another party.

Agreed with that, though in theory you could sell someone your Steam account (unless that's against the EULA. I haven't read it)

As well, despite the fact that the steam version has no packaging costs, no printing costs, no warehousing costs, no stocking, shipping, or handling costs, you are still paying the same for the game as everyone else who bought it in the store. Finally, the Steam store does not answer to market concerns, and operates arbitrarily...

They do have bandwidth, hosting, electricity and administrative costs, though. If those are on the same level as brick'n'mortar overhead, who knows.

And I would argue that they are responding to market demands. If they offered all the games for $2, it would murder their retail division. The market says people will pay $X for a boxed version. They won't pay $Y for a digital version, and wouldn't buy the boxed version if the digital was priced at $Z. So the market has demanded a digital copy for somewhere between $Y and $Z. B&M stores drop prices and clear out inventory due to limitations of physical space. The market dictates that newer games sell better, so the profit:space ratio is higher for those products. As you pointed out, Steam has no shelf/warehouse/stocking requirements, so they don't have the same physical pressure to lower the price of product. In fact, as a popular game goes out of stock at EB, you'd think the price at Steam would RISE-- as per market demands. If the product is popular, and demand is high, price goes up. The set price just comes down to market demands. 10 copies with $10 profit, or 70 copies with $1 profit? (Ignoring, of course, the intangibles such as market share, brand loyalty, install base, PR, etc).

So while I think you're right that there's more that Steam can do to be The Awesomest, they are far from ignoring market demands. It's just that their market, while it has some unique benefits, doesn't live in isolation from other markets-- and those have an impact

Re:I like Steam

[vux984]

Steam seems to me to be a rather effective method of DRM. I can only be logged into the account from ONE computer at a time, and I can play my games. what's the problem?

1) One day you might be part of a family, and will consider sharing your stuff.

And then it will happen that you want to play YOUR copy of game X online, while someone else in your family wants to play YOUR copy of game Y online. Steam's DRM prevents this.

That would be like not being allowed to read ANY of your books because your wife was currently reading one of them.

The only solution is to buy additional copies of a game YOU ALREADY HAVE on a separate account, even though the copy of the game YOU ALREADY HAVE isn't even being used.

2) Steam might one day decide not to authorize you to play your games. Maybe your account will get hacked and banned, and you lose all your games. Maybe they'll go bankrupt.

My policy is simply that every steam game I buy gets its own account. I lose a chunk of convenience because of this, but at least I can do things like use 2 of my games at the same time, or give/lend a game I don't want anymore away, and the worst case if an account gets compromised/banned - I lose one game. But I actively avoid buying steam games because of the hassle, and only have 2, instead of the 10+ I'd easily have if it weren't for the DRM.

Re:I like Steam

[khellendros1984]

I guess the way that I think about it is that I have access to my account from anywhere. I can load my games onto some random computer and be good to go. A friend's house or whatever. I like that value. And if they do something to lock me out, I would have no problem whatsoever with downloading a Steam crack, and continuing to play my games. In theory, I'm against DRM. But I feel like it become a moot point when it actually provides me some value, and I have the power to circumvent it should I choose to. Note that I don't play online often, when I say this.

Re:I like Steam

[khellendros1984]

Well,

theoretically

, Valve will unlock all the Steam installs if they go out of business. I have no idea if it will actually work that way, of course. There could just as easily be "unavoidable technical issues" (i.e. newly developed contractual obligations with former competitors or whatever) that prevent them from unlocking the games.

Looking at old games, I guess I can point out how many needed a manual, or a key decoder spinner or whatever. So many of those have been cracked (eventually). I can still play them, even when the companies are gone. The same thing will happen here. Copy protection, DRM, all that cruft....essentially useless. It's broken within days of the games' releases. So while I dislike DRM strongly, I somehow doubt that it'll work well as a lock against access to older games.

Re:I like Steam

[RiotingPacifist]

For me thats one of the things valves adds. If your account contributes to cheating, then fuck you. Your still free to play single player games and on non-vac servers, what GP said is much more scarey (if its more than a glitch as it was for you) the idea that they can disable your entire account single-player stuff too.

Re:I like Steam

[RiotingPacifist]

Hes using almost always in the same way that you say water is almost always wet. If you cheat then you lose the right to play the game on vac protected server, you still get offline play and non-vac servers

Re:I like Steam

[RiotingPacifist]

Its been awhile since i used steam but IRRC you had to periodically re-register even if you ticked the offline mode box.

Re:I like Steam

[RiotingPacifist]

I reinstall my computer, or what-fucking-ever.

Sell me the product I want to buy, and I'll buy it.

Don't, and I won't.

Can't get any simpler than that.

Thats what i actually liked about steam was i could forget about cds, honestly i tend to torrent stuff i have just because i cant be botherd to keep a stack of CDs, steam lets you get all your games back after reinstall.

Re:I like Steam

[morari]

The problem is that I have to purchase four different copies of Team Fortress 2 just to play it with my family on my private home network. Several other Steam games that I've tried don't have this problem as they can be played in Offline Mode. Of course then the wife and I can't play against someone online. I guess that scenario doesn't sound as legitimate though. However, I feel that if I don't own the games I buy, I should at least have a home license. That extends to any software, really.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

Mmmm, you understand me wrongly. There are other issues regarding steam besides VAC protected cheating. My case is a used game that can't be transfered from my friend's account to mine. The guy want to give it to me but steam doesn't allow this kind of stuff. On console gaming I would just go home with the disk and bam. The game is mine from now on.

Re:I like Steam

[Burnhard]

Hes using almost always in the same way that you say water is almost always wet

Well, sometimes water is steam and only has the quality `wet' when it condenses.

As I have scientific background, I'm loathe to say "always" or 100%, because I don't have the facts in front of me (only Steam do). However, if anecdotal evidence is good enough for you, I can say that I don't know anyone innocent who has been banned from Steam. Moreover I do know that Terms and Conditions are worthless if a court decides them to be unreasonable and it's possible that this may be the case if Steam were to ban an account without evidence of wrong-doing. I'm not saying it's necessarily right, only that the benefits for me as a gamer outweigh the negatives and that's why I continue to use and support Steam.

Re:I like Steam

[gladbach]

I had my account compromised, however I was not banned for cheating. I just could no longer log in. I simply sent in a support ticket, verified my information, and the account was restored.

I personally love steam. I find the value to be far larger, simply due to the fact that I don't need to keep track of my cds, and keys for said cds. I delete the local content I don't wish to play, and when i get the urge to play one of my older games, I simply redownload and off I go. I actually play my old games now, whereas I have yet to reinstall my old games I've purchased still on CD...

To me, steam is one of the best things to happen to pc gaming. I generally have not bought a game that was not released on steam.

Re:I like Steam

[Applekid]

For Counter-Strike Source alone there are probably 100+ different hacks (aimbots, wallhacks, no-recoil, etc) that simply don't get detected.

A) When it comes to permanently and irreversably banning people from playing online on pretty much any server, I'd rather they be more conservative than squash all the cheaters taking many more innocents with them.

B) Cheats exist and ARE detectable... the thing is an entire group of users never suffer the consequences. Valve made cyber cafe accounts immune to VAC bans in order to keep favor with those businesses. Clearly can't have a situation where someone pays $10, loads a cheat from a USB drive, and proceeds to undermine the entire business getting it banned. Someone playing at a cyber cafe gets a new unique Steam ID each time they play a game, so even if the server kicks them they can come right back. Google for CafeBlock and encourage the admins of your favorite server to run it.

Re:I like Steam

[Burnhard]

Yes, this is one of the things I dislike about it compared to owning hard-copy. At the very least you'd think Steam would implement a feature where I could pay some small sum to transfer it to someone else's account. It's a delicate balance as a business proposition because it's possible you'd buy it for them anyway (as a gift perhaps), or that they would want to play it so much they'd buy it for themselves as full price. I suppose the egg-heads could optimise the price of transfer in such a way as to hit the sweet spot.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

I wouldn't mind paying a small fee for the transfer. It drives me crazy to see that it is not possible. It would drive me crazy too if I had to pay, lets say, 20 bucks to transfer a $25 game

Re:I like Steam

[vux984]

This is the 'software as a service' model. You don't own a product, and the license to use the service is itself not a product either. So you have nothing you can sell or trade. You have no asset, in other words. This makes you vulnerable because unlike with a product, to get any utility from a service you are totally dependent upon the service provider.

Yet these games are 'sold' on shelves at retail in boxes. How is that not highly deceptive?

When I bought a copy of 'Lost Planet' at EB a few months back, well... hmmm ...see right there its FUCKED. It turns out that according to Valve, I didn't buy a copy. Yet I have a box, and disk, and a receipt... and it looks like all the other products I've ever bought... except for some fine print that I needed a free steam account.

The trouble with SAAS isn't the model itself its that they are selling SAAS as if it were regular software that you actually bought, and not drawing a real distinction, relying on the consumers understanding of how buying normally works to get them to take home their SAAS stuff and then spring the SAAS limitations on them months or years later. They might not have bought it in the first place if they were properly informed about what they bought^H^H^H^H^H ... that they weren't in fact buying anything but were merely "subscribing" to something.

SAAS sales are analogous to walking into a store, picking a big screen TV, paying the sticker price for it cash, walking home, setting it up, and then 3 years later some guy comes and takes it away telling you that you'd only rented it. Sure some of the other TVs were actually for sale, but the one you picked, was just TV-as-a-service. Yes, yes, I know we didn't mention it, and yes, yes, I know it looked like we were selling it by putting it in with all the other stuff that really was for sale, but hey... it was in the fine print on the bottom of the box that this unit was a limited rental, what? why didn't you read it?

Re:I like Steam

[TheSambassador]

I agree. I've never had any problems with Steam, and I may have "pushed the limits" as far as using more than 1 computer at a time with it. I don't have to worry about keeping install CDs around, I have a nice friend system that I can access from ANY game, steam or non steam (the Steam Community Overlay is actually really cool), and they have a huge catalog of games that I can browse through.

I think that the people who have problems with Steam are in a very small minority. However, that's comparable to the "small minority" that have problems with DRM. However, IMO, Steam is a much better system.

Re:I like Steam

[afidel]

All multiplayer console games just tie a license key to your online account which is exactly the same concept, you can't resell the game because it has basically no value without the ability to use it in multiplayer.

Re:I like Steam

[atomic-penguin]

After keeeping my CPU 100% for 2 hours

Maybe you should not install the game on your 486 SX, dude.

I tryed later the Steam way - about 4 hours and a half. And I finished that game in about 7 hours.

If you had a decent Internet connection it should not have taken much longer than an hour. Maybe, just maybe, you should think about ditching the 14.4 modem for something faster.

Re:I like Steam

[BitZtream]

I just feel that it should be pointed out that the 'no lawyers' thing only applies to individuals suing individuals, not individuals suing a company or the other way around.

A corp like Valve is a legal entity not a person, when they go to small claims court they are allowed to be represented by a lawyer on the corps behalf. Don't think for a second that by suing them you're going to meet Gabe and be able to have a battle of wits in front of the judge.

You'll meet one of their lawyers who will promptly tear you a new legal asshole and you'll get thrown out. Unless you happen to get lucky enough to come before the judge who is sympathetic to the individual, which does happen in small claims.

Re:I like Steam

[Haeleth]

Far be it from me to accuse you of lying, but what you're saying is rather implausible and completely contradicts their widely publicised and well-documented behaviour.

If they catch you cheating, your account is permanently banned from their multiplayer servers, and you do have to buy the games again on a different account if you want to play them multiplayer on Valve's servers again. But the account itself is not deactivated; you can still play all your single-player games, and you can still play the multiplayer games on third-party servers that don't block cheaters.

So if you had a dialup connection and weren't playing multiplayer games anyway, then you wouldn't have noticed any ill effects at all from a cheater ban.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

And it can't be transfered!? Crap! Am I the only one who thinks this is outrageous?!

Re:I like Steam

[Ant P.]

I always wonder why there's some poor cheater who comes up with this "I was banned but I didn't cheat" excuse, because it doesn't hold up at all when others know how VAC works.

Now say someone got their hands on one of these files... then linked to it using an <img> tag on... say... a valve-related forum.
Hmm.

Re:I like Steam

[travbrad]

I agree with both your points. However, you can google "css hacks" or something similar and find tons of hacks that are undetectable. It would be nice if Valve could make the effort to find those hacks themselves and figure out how detect them.

The wallhacks are particularly bad in this regard. There are wallhack packages that were released YEARS ago that still work. All it would take is a quick scan of the users "materials" folder every once in awhile, like every 20th time they join a server. I realize there are custom skins and whatnot, but wallhacks are easily distinguishable from new gun skins (for example).

I hardly even play it anymore though, and when I do I tend to just play on servers with admins (only the less obvious hackers can get away with it then, and they are killable ;))

Re:I like Steam

[ion.simon.c]

Exactly.
And what if they're just lying? What if they never free the games, ever? *shrug*

If you *really* want to play this game well, you have to consider that we're fucked, regardless of the presence of any DRM scheme. We're buying closed-source products made for a closed-source OS. In the long run, our games *will* either stop functioning, or require complex hacks to keep running.

Re:I like Steam

[lupis42]

Back before there was a good offline mode, I worked around it by the simple (relatively) expedient of borrowing a steam account from a friend who didn't have a moral objection to needing to be online to play a single player game. I got to not support a DRM scheme I didn't agree with, not break the law or pirate the game, and play the game. Since Valve introduced offline mode, more than half of my gaming dollars go through that store. Prices are often but not always a bit lower, and I love the convenience of not needing discs or anything. Go to friends house, borrow his old machine, log into Steam with my account, and we're LANing.

Re:I like Steam

[PylonHead]

Wow. You're a scary MF.

Re:I like Steam

[knails]

You know, you can always rip an disk image instead, and if the game needs a key, store it as text with the image. Simple as that.

Re:I like Steam

[ozphx]

Its no more of an effective killswitch than a key ban for some other system. If they flick the switch you go download on of the many steam emulators or game specific cracks - and keep running the single player component of your games. (With the same pissed off look on your face as if say EA blocked your Battlefield 2 key).

Re:I like Steam

[ozphx]

I liked Steam until I bought GTA4. I had hoped that by getting on Steam that there would be the nice happy Steam DRM experience (ie: it just works) rather than the assrape.

I had to sign up and sign in to both Games For Windows Live, and Rockstar Social Club. I had to link these profiles together (or the game would crash on startup with an MMA10 error). I had to install SecureROM and activate my copy. As there is apparantly unlimited activations, I'm not sure who is actually benefiting from this additional DRM.

Then theres a whole bunch of performance issues and crashes, which presumably will be patched. Still, its a fucking dodgy console port, and I suggest that anyone who isn't really really interested in the multiplayer to pirate the damn thing.

I wasted twice the value of the game in my time trying to get the goddamn thing to work.

Are you hearing this Rockstar? If I'd waited for the Skulluptra rip, I wouldve had one-fucking-click install, and none of your bullshit. I paid you to get fucked right up the arse. Good luck getting another sale out of me - you are going to have to put some damn good multiplayer in everything you sell now - or you can fuck right off.

Re:I like Steam

[Anonymous Coward]

It's really arrogant and kind of narrow-minded to assume that just because you like DRM, that it should be allowed.

Fixed that for you.

Re:I like Steam

[Stormie]

Yesterday I wanted to play Halflife during my lunch break on my laptop. Mind that this is my private laptop and therefore I've no internet connection at work. Ofcourse Steam decided that I can't play until I've reconnected to internet first.

Steam screwed me the same way. I had a prolonged internet outage at home, and deprived of World of Warcraft I went looking for a single-player game to amuse me. Decided to replay Half-life 2. But no. No internet = no single-player HL2 thanks to Steam's DRM. You can be sure that I will never be purchasing another game via Steam, and also that I laughed derisively at Newell's comment that "The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to), not by decreasing the value of a product (maybe I'll be able to play my game and maybe I won't)."

Re:I like Steam

[lachlan76]

Try buying a second-hand game. Half-life might have predated Steam at first, but if it's been previously registered with Steam, you can't update, and multiplayer goes out the window.

Not to mention this wonderful quote from their support forums:

Your account got banned because VAC detected a cheat being used with your account. Period. It didn't make a mistake. We will not un-ban your account regardless of the reason.

Certainly a graceful way to respond to people who have had up to hundreds of dollars worth of software destroyed. It's not happened to me, but those words have stuck with me, and are, in my opinion, indicative of the spirit in which such software behaves.

Re:I like Steam

[gumpish]

Let's hope that when Gabe says Valve will release an unlock tool so you can play your games when/if Valve ever collapses, he actually follows through.

Their termination clause explicitly states that Valve has no olbligation to do so. (I actually stopped to read it before buying GTA 4, and I'm glad that I did. Of course, buying a boxed copy of GTA 4 wasn't much more appealing since both versions have SecuRom... Neither Valve nor Rockstar will be getting my business now.)

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

The problem is the license is already tied to the guy's account and he plays other stuff online. I can't just log in with his account because this would prevent him from playing his other games.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

But the least of my problems is banning! What pisses me off is the lack o freedom to do whaterver a want with my license (give it away, combine it with another steam account, etc, etc)

Re:I like Steam

[closetpsycho]

What multiplayer console game does this? I play a LOT of games, and I've never encountered this problem with any of them. If it's a downloaded game, then yes, it is tied to your system. But every console game that I've ever purchased a disc for has been able to be resold. The only exceptions are things like pre-order bonuses that can't be transferred once linked to your account. But those are usually just extra skins for something or another and don't actually add any gameplay elements. You can still very much play all of the multiplayer and single player modes with ease.

Re:I like Steam

[TheRaven64]

But what would happen if your restaurant had a 'family' section? Would you then get the money from the people who didn't want to eat with kids and from the people who wanted to come with their family?

The question is not 'did switching from business model A to business model B give a net increase in customers' it's 'did switching from business model A to business model B give a smaller net increase in customers than switching to business model C would have done?'

I don't know the answer to that question, all I know is that they have lost business from me personally through the DRM in Steam, where they would have got additional sales from me if Steam had existed but been optional and not bundled DRM.

Re:I like Steam

[fotbr]

Depending on the rest of the restaurant's business model, a "family" section may be incompatible (say, the overall image one wants to present). Also, you end up with one group or the other (or, more likely, both groups) ending up less than happy with the divide and/or presence of the other group.

In any case, sometimes a change resulting in losing customers isn't a bad thing for business, if the change results in an overall increase for the business. The key, of course, is wether that change is a sustainable one, and not (as in the case of certain car companies -- hey, whaddaya know, cars DO fit!) throwing away the business to chase next quarter's fiscal reports. As far as the sustainability of Steam, so far, so good.

Re:I like Steam

[NekoXP]

Nice one, now you can go back to hugging that tree.

Re:I like Steam

[lupis42]

Log into his account. Go into offline mode. He can resume playing his other games.

Re:I like Steam

[danieltdp]

Nice idea. It is a little cumbersome as I had to call him every time I wanna play, but it's better than nothing.

Re:I like Steam

[xXJackxHackXx]

lawyers arent allowed in small claims court, the company has to send a non lawyer representative to the court...

Re:I like Steam

[2TecTom]

only when it makes Valve money - otherwise those PHBs won't do diddly

sadly, they don't really care about customers or gaming, just how much they can get for how little they can provide

big business sucks when it comes to community and creative efforts as they just won't play fairly with others

personally, I refuse to support evil by buying into corporate schemes

Re:I like Steam

[stephenhawking]

Doesn't matter what the "suspicious activity" was. If I commit suspicious activity in my Tahoe, should Chevy be able to come to my house and get it back? If I bash some drunk's head in with my strat, should fender show up at the gig wanting the guitar back? When you buy something, you buy it. There shouldn't be a kill switch. I've already bought two steam games, halflife and defcon, but I don't even play those because I don't want steam even installed on my machine anymore.

Piracy, oh really?

[kvezach]

DRM can't be about piracy. In the very best case, it's about opening day piracy; any longer and the cracks are already out, and you don't have to be a wizard to go to TPB or GameCopyWorld and download them.

Re:Piracy, oh really?

[Anonymous Coward]

Spore was 0-day'd, it really is just about pissing off legitimate users.

Re:Piracy, oh really?

[Asmor]

0-day? Pfft.

It's been a while since I did much with warez, but I distinctly remember many things (including the game Rune) being available for download much sooner than it was available to buy.

Re:Piracy, oh really?

[Chyeld]

DRM, regardless of the claims otherwise, is pretty much about one thing and one thing only:

Killing the 'used' game market, both the "I bought this game three years ago and want to play it again" and the "I'd like to trade this game for another at GameTard" kind.

As you mentioned, it doesn't stop piracy. Anyone who is going to pirate a game can do so with almost absurd ease, without DRM being any real impediment.

I am sure that there are developers out there that actually buy the "stop piracy" line, but if you read between the lines of what 90% of the developers out there say about the used game market, you realize that regardless of what they say DRM is for, the primary and as of yet sole utility of DRM for them is killing used games.

Sadly, for the most part there are few companies who are willing to act as if removing your right to resell your possesions is anything other than their birth given right and this is why things like limited installs and one use only activation codes exist.

This is also why I actually support Valve's Steam. It's not that they are any different with the purpose of their DRM, you certainly will find it pretty much impossible to resell a game you've purchased through Steam. But at least they are providing added value to the proposition in 'compensation' for this. I consider it a fair trade. In exchange for games tied to their system, I get an effectively perpetual online 'backup' for each game and built-in community apps for them.

Maybe someday Valve will turn around and 'betray' the trust people have given them in this regard. Perhaps they'll not provide an unlock method for their games if the ever take Steam down. But then again, perhaps they will. Valve isn't Microsoft or Apple. They don't have a long record of screwing folk over as a matter of practice or policy rather than mistake. I prefer to give companies that have a history of behaving well the benefit of the doubt when possible and revise it as events make necessary.

Priceless

[Goldberg's Pants]

Gabe comes out and says this the day after GTA IV has released on Steam complete with Securom.

Dear Mr Miller: No, it is NOT acceptable, and I will no longer be buying any games that follow what you consider acceptable. So many of the issues people have with running new titles is down to the copy protection.

I really want the PC to die as a mainstream gaming platform to be honest. (And I say that as a hardcore PC gamer for the last 12 years.) Despite all the mounting evidence that shows it's ineffectual and pointless, copy protection is getting worse and worse. Kill the platform entirely, EA and the like can fuck off to the consoles and stay there in their happy little pirate free zone (yeah right), and the PC can go back to serving niche genres for a smaller customer base that are actually treated like customers and not thieves.

Re:Priceless

[Pushpabon]

The death of pc gaming won't be due to piracy but the ever increasing dumbing down of titles and the half-assed job of porting shitty console titles to PC because the publishers want to cater to the retard masses who buy their games instead of the smart adults who want to play games such as Deus Ex and System Shock 2.

Re:Priceless

[DigitalisAkujin]

That's a pretty ignorant view point when companies are making millions from sales of PC games despite the warez scene.

DRM is a waste of time for any game played online when you need a CDKey to identify yourself with the server. And that's all of them these days. There's very little reply value in the single player modes of some of these games.

Re:Priceless

[ion.simon.c]

Surely you don't mean to tell me that legit CDKeys can't be generated? ;)

Re:Priceless

[Winckle]

They can be generated, but they won't check against the database of legitimately generated keys.

Re:Priceless

[Lostlander]

Figuring out the algorithm for a keygen takes about as long as cracking an executable. Either way it's a bunch of math

Re:Priceless

[petermgreen]

I would expect it to take MUCH longer if the key algorithm is correctly designed.

Re:Priceless

[Sj0]

I think you're way off-base.

The games I buy off of xbox live have exactly ONE install, and god help you if you delete the game.

This is better than a PC?

Re:Priceless

[mrchaotica]

I really want the PC to die as a mainstream gaming platform to be honest.

Why? DRM on the PC may be bad, but consoles are completely locked!

I want console gaming to die!

Re:Priceless

[Lostlander]

True you can get direct feedback from the files as to whether or not your crack is working and you can monitor memory where a keygen is quite a bit more hit and miss.

Re:Priceless

[CronoCloud]

The death of pc gaming won't be due to piracy but the ever increasing dumbing down of titles

You'll have to define dumbing down for me. Do you mean gameplay or more likely, just control changes.

and the half-assed job of porting shitty console titles to PC because the publishers want to cater to the retard masses who buy their games

When you work you want to get paid, right? You don't want developers to get paid for their work?

instead of the smart adults who want to play games such as Deus Ex and System Shock 2.

I must have imagined playing Deus Ex on my PS2.

A port of the game, entitled Deus Ex: The Conspiracy, was also released for the PlayStation 2, on March 25, 2002. Along with pre-rendered introductory and ending cinematics which replaced the original versions, it features a streamlined interface with auto aim, and improved graphics and motion captured character models. Some levels were changed and chopped down into smaller areas separated by load-screens, due to the memory limitations of the PlayStation 2.

Re:Priceless

[CronoCloud]

but consoles are completely locked!

Not completely locked. Sony doesn't care what you do with your PS2 or PS3 as long as you do it under Linux under a run-time environment/hypervisor. I'm glad consoles are mostly locked, it keeps crappy cheapo eastern European dev houses from releasing all their Myst clones and Diablo clones with bad production values on them.

Re:Priceless

[petermgreen]

Lets say every key consisted of a clear part describing what it was a key for and it's serial number. and then a digital signature. If the key is encoded in base32 and we use a sha1 hash for our signature that would give us a key arround 40 characters (assuming say an 8 bit product code and a 32 bit serial number)

Without the private key for the signature (which need never be placed on an internet connected machine) the only way to make a keygen would be to crack the public/private key encryption used which seems unlikely to me.

Re:Priceless

[Applekid]

They can be generated, but they won't check against the database of legitimately generated keys.

Well, statistically speaking, they might... and wind up causing a problem for someone else down the line.

Re:Priceless

[Goldberg's Pants]

From the developers point of view, yes, it is.

Re:Priceless

[grumbel]

You'll have to define dumbing down for me. Do you mean gameplay or more likely, just control changes.

There are basically two problems. One is simply lack of proper controls, a control scheme that works well with a gamepad is a different then one that works well with a mouse and quite frequently it has happened that developers only did a console style controls without adapting it properly to the PC resulting in an awkward experience. Same is of course also true in the other direction, a PC port to console does often not work very well. The issue of controls of course blends into gameplay and balancing as well (mouse aims more exact, so enemy formations that work on console can be boring on PC).

The second issue is one of attention span, console games are designed for shorter attention spans on average, so they tend to be simpler then PC games. This is much less visible today then it was 10 years ago, because we have so many cross platform titles these days and most of the complex PC genres have died out or at least fallen out of mainstream long ago, most prominent examples are the flightsims, but there are also point&click adventures and western RPGs.

Re:Priceless

[grumbel]

The difference is that DRM on a console works together with the hardware/firmware to accomplish its goal. DRM on the PC on the other side works against the hardware and OS and thus breaks lots of stuff and leads to tons of incompatibilities and problems. From a freedom-loving point of view that might not be much of a difference, but from a gamers point of view its a hell of a difference. The issue with PC DRM isn't that its DRM, but simply that it breaks stuff, if it wouldn't constantly do that, sometimes even intentional, it would be much less hated.

Re:Priceless

[IntergalacticWalrus]

I think you're not looking at the big picture here.

First up, computers are designed as general purpose machines, so any kind of locking up goes against their greater purpose (ie. be a tool that allows its owner to do whatever he wants). Yeah, we both agree on that. DRM bad, software freedom good, etc.

But when you buy a console, you are fully aware that it is locked down. Unlike the computer it is NOT a general purpose machine. Its only intended goal is to play games. The lockdown works in favor of that. It ensures the vendor that it can maintain a certain level of quality and consistency of the product, and minimize piracy. Every software that's executed is proprietary and closed source, so the openness of the hardware is irrelevent.

If anything, getting rid of the mainstream PC gaming platform in favor of consoles will only bring MORE freedom to the computing world. For example, I know many people who won't consider using Linux because of mainstream games. If they were to migrate their gaming needs to consoles, the need for Windows would be greatly diminished.

That's the great thing about consoles: they isolate closed content to a single, isolated hardware platform, freeing up our general purpose machines from that burden.

Re:Priceless

[mrchaotica]

I think you're not looking at the big picture here.

I think I'm looking at a bigger picture than you realize.

Whether DRM is right or wrong doesn't depend on what the "intent" of the machine is; DRM is inherently wrong by its nature. It doesn't become magically okay if you were "aware" of it, or if it helps the publisher, or even if it's "isolated" to a single platform. Think about it -- DRM is "isolated" to Windows and Mac, "freeing up" our Linux machines from that burden. But is that good enough? Of course not! Trying to put DRM in a "walled garden" and then pretending it's okay to ignore it doesn't work; in reality the walls are around us and we're just depriving ourselves of the outside world.

Let me ask you a question: is it okay for a movie to have DRM? What about a song? What about a book? Is the answer "no?" Well, then, what makes a game any different? Why should games get a free pass if other forms of expression don't?

In fact, you know what? Game software has even more of a need to be free of DRM than anything else! Compare it to a normal piece of software -- Linux, for instance. Fifty years from now, who's going to care about 2.6.whatever? Nobody! But fifty years from now, who's going to care about Half-Life? I know I will! Unlike applications, where the only important thing is functionality that can be completely superseded by a new version, unique stories and fun experiences don't go obsolete.

Now, compare a game to a movie or song. Even when a movie or song is DRM'd, it's more likely to last than a game. Since it's a standard, there'll still be hardware around 50 years from now that can play DVDs. But consoles aren't standards, and a PS3 is going to be a rare beast in 2058. Unlike music and movies, games need to be maintained by either porting them or writing emulators for them. And it's perversely evil to intentionally make that harder to do by infecting them with DRM!

Of course, all these arguments I make about DRM also apply to proprietary source code (and art assets, etc. for that matter). It's a tragedy how much has already been lost, and will continue to be lost, because we were too stupid to keep copies of it. And to exacerbate that with DRM is unconscionable -- it's like tossing a lit match into the Library of Alexandria.

Re:Priceless

[CronoCloud]

There are a few games that I think work very well as a console port. My favorite example is Diablo, which IMHO plays better (and faster) on the PS1 than the PC. I am still miffed that Orange Box on the PS3 does not have mouse support (at least in Single Player and Portal) even though PS2 port of Half-Life 1 does. Even though I loathe WASD as a control scheme for movement, I like mouse aiming and given the choice I'll use it in a console game. Did it in the PS1 ports of Quake II and Alien Resurrection, did it again in Half Life and Deux Ex for the PS2.

The second issue is one of attention span, console games are designed for shorter attention spans on average, so they tend to be simpler then PC games.

They are? That might have been the case 20 or 30 years ago, but not these days or even 10 years ago. There are some pretty looooong and HUGE console games out there, even back in the NES days many games simply could not be beat in one sitting. You'd have to save, or get a password save, or simply pause. And considering how FPS's and RTS's replaced all those Avalon Hill and SSI wargames and RPG's as the big genre's (changing demographics did that by itself) I don't think PC gamers have any longer attention spans than console gamers, if they ever did considering how many arcade ports there were for the C64.

Re:Priceless

[grumbel]

I am talking about attention span, not length, i.e. how long it takes till the player gets his 'return of investment' and well, a 15 years ago you had flightsims on a PC and jump'n runs on the console, quite a different learning curve. Today that of course is less meaningful, but you can still tell from a mile away that something like Stalker or Sins of the Solar Empire is a PC game, not a console one. This by the way does not refer to the gamers itself, but the publishers expectation of gamers and its probally more true for Western console developers then it was for Japanese. Lots of JRPGs never got released in the Europe because they where considered unfit for the market and that includes high profile stuff like ChronoTrigger and FF3.

But as said, it gets more and more meaningless these days, as PC games get more console-like and console games more PC like and half of them are developed cross platform anyway.

There's nothing blunt about it.

[subreality]

The goal should be to create greater value for customers through service value (make it easy for me to play my games whenever and wherever I want to)

No, the goal is to increase revenues by decreasing piracy and preventing sale of used games. What is said above is their method of making it palatable to the consumer.

If the goal was *really* to "create greater value" and "make it easy to play games whenever and wherever" the solution would be simple: DON'T USE DRM.

I understand the need to fight piracy, but quit trying to spin it like it's being done for me, or that there's some silver lining.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Loibisch]

The thing is that some forms of DRM allow for distribution schemes previously not possible. I can see your point when talking about hard copies you buy at a store. DRM in those copies is definitely not helping the consumer.

Now take Steam on the other hand. Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play. This would be equivalent to being able to copy a game you bought at the store for all of your friends.

So in this case, DRM actually makes a new distribution channel possible, which in the case of Steam is indeed a greater value to the consumer.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Dunbal]

No, the goal is to increase revenues by decreasing piracy and preventing sale of used games.

      No, the goal (for the DRM peddler) is to PRETEND to offer increased revenues by PRETENDING to decrease piracy and prevent sale of used games. However the only revenue that is actually increased is the "security" company's.

      No one wants to buy shitty games. The good games are cracked usually within hours of release with few exceptions. However good games still make money. If Electronic Arts could build a multi-billion dollar company by releasing endless versions of the same steaming piles of shit, there's money to be made despite piracy.

      But it's so easy to blame lack of sales on copyright infringement. Piracy and sales are DIRECTLY, not inversely, proportional. If a game sucks NO ONE WILL PIRATE IT. So if your game didn't sell it's because IT SUCKS, not because everyone managed to download it before going to the store.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[JorDan Clock]

I don't think it's spin. DRM doesn't just refer to companies stealing your rights, sometimes DRM can refer to your right to manage digital media. In this case, Steam is two types of DRM. It protects Valve from piracy and allows you to manage your games from a central location.

"Don't use DRM" is too broad. What is a problem, though, is DRM that places the "rights" of the producer too far ahead of that of the buyer. Basically, when it starts managing our rights when we don't want it to.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Stormwatch]

Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

But that is what already happens anyway! Take a look at The Pirate Bay, Mininova, Black Cats, whatever... name any game, it's probably there. DRM is a serious nuisance to legit clients, but merely a quick and fun challenge to crackers. All this DRM-mania does nothing but make piracy look more attractive!

Gotta admire the GOG people... they sell some nice stuff at decent prices, and don't give you any of that DRM bullshit.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Anonymous Coward]

Now take Steam on the other hand. Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

How very wrong. Just look at totalgaming.net (or now: Impulsedriven). StarDock is offering something like Steam but completely without DRM. And it works! Sins of a Solar Empire, a game released without any form of copy protection both retail and over their online download service, sold great.
They offer a DRM-free game for you to enjoy and patches are only available through their Steam-like plattform. But unlike Steam it doesn't force you do download patches nor does it have to run in the background while playing.

Their business model works great. They add values to paying customers in providing really good (content-adding) patches for customers only.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Ash-Fox]

StarDock is offering something like Steam but completely without DRM.

When is StarDock going to release a game I might want. Like a freeform space like X3: Terran conflict or FPS like the Unreal series?

Right now they have no games that interest me, or many other gamers I know. Of course there is no piracy on mass.

But unlike Steam it doesn't force you do download patches

Uncheck the "keep my game up to date" box in the game's properties?

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[argent]

In this case, Steam is two types of DRM. It protects Valve from piracy and allows you to manage your games from a central location.

You don't need Steam to keep a copy of your games on a server. Steam just forces you to only use THEIR server.

"Copy Protection" or "DRM", it's only there to restrict the purchaser's rights. It may be necessary to do that in some cases, but that doesn't change the fact that... no matter what you call it... it can only *restrict* what you can do with the software you legally installed. It only adds value for the consumer to the extent that it encourages creators to publish (which is where the "it may be necessary" part comes in).

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Loibisch]

Sure, all of this would also be possible withOUT DRM, but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

But that is what already happens anyway! Take a look at The Pirate Bay, Mininova, Black Cats, whatever... name any game, it's probably there. DRM is a serious nuisance to legit clients, but merely a quick and fun challenge to crackers. All this DRM-mania does nothing but make piracy look more attractive!

I'm sorry, but any argument starting with "pirating it off the internet is easier than buying" is just stupid. Yeah, of course pirating it is easier, but it's also illegal and can get you caught, possibly costing you more than your house is worth. So wanna take the risk? Fine with me...I don't.

Gotta admire the GOG people... they sell some nice stuff at decent prices, and don't give you any of that DRM bullshit.

Yeah, because implementing a DRM scheme for games that old and which they don't have the source code to would certainly cost more money than ever being made off the titles.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Saint_Waldo]

Explain World of Goo. 90% piracy rate seems to give lie to your logic.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

...but it wouldn't be much of a business model if everyone could just download everything to any computer and just leave it there for someone else to play.

In 20+ years of computing, this has always been the case, and it hasn't come close to destroying the business model. This is simply a perpetual 'slippery slope'.

So in this case, DRM actually makes a new distribution channel possible....

I suppose. I mean, really, all it's doing is comforting a bunch of people that think you are a thief.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[martinw89]

In their own study they admitted their figures were a very rough estimation.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[danieltdp]

Microsoft cut their prices in Brazil in half. You know what happened with their profit? Went up 500%. They sold 10 TIMES MORE.That says quite a lot about piracy, IMO.

90% piracy with 10 times more sales is nothing. They put DRM and the total sales go down with piracy counts...

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Dunbal]

First, explain how the 90% number is derived, apart from the "rectal extraction" technique. A quick google search shows over a million hits for that number, but saying something a million times doesn't make it true.

Then, recognize that the company that produced it is making profit. Most of those front page google hits admit this. By no means are they going bankrupt despite this "90% piracy rate", whatever THAT means. AFAIK there's no reliable method to detect how many copies are downloaded on emule/vuze/torrent sites. Does it mean they sold 90% less copies than expected? Ahh, that's a number you can calculate - but ok I expect to sell one million grains of sand from my back yard tonight. Am I setting myself up for disappointment later this evening you think?

Thirdly, my statement stands. "Piracy" is directly proportional to how good a game is. I've never seen World of Goo, but it seems rather popular obviously.

I fail to see how my argument is refuted by your statement.

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[Discrete_infinity]

The effect I believe you are referring to is well known in economics and elsewhere as the Laffer curve ala Arthur Laffer. Although Laffer made the concept well known, IIRC Keynes is credited often for developing the idea.

Cheers

Re:There's nothing blunt about it.

[danieltdp]

With the bonus that I am talking about a real case in the software industry! ;-) Brazilian prices for software are unbelievable when compared with middle class wages. The price they charge now is more reasonable

Absurd system requirements

[Hard Core Rikki]

If only they could've optimized this game a bit... It's absurd for a game to propose graphic options 'not supported by today's latest graphic cards'. Maxxing on Medium Quality at 1600x1200 simply doesn't look right. Restricting enjoyable experience in such way to a minority of spend-happy gamers with highend rigs: the new restricitng in this digital age? Even Crysis runs much better than this. IF it runs runs a dog on everyone's rigs, not even pirates will manage to run it, let alone 'enjoy' having pirated it. StarDock at least had their concept right (good games that look good, without either requiring powerful systems or being overpriced. Oh, and little to no digital restrictions too). http://www.shacknews.com/featuredarticle.x?id=1026

Re:Absurd system requirements

[sabre3999]

Until they let me use a mouse and keyboard to move and look FPS's like Halo, or mouse functionality to enable easy inventory management games like Mass Effect/KOTOR or more proper RPGs, there's going to be quite a difference in experience. I can think of games that were completely ruined due to their "console feel"... see Deus Ex Invisible War for a good example. There was nothing wrong with its predecessor, but they catered it's sequel to consoles. The result was a good game and great story with a horribly translated UI, which dumbed down the interface. Bioshock is another example. Play System Shock 2, which it is seen as a spiritual successor to. You can see the influence it had on Bioshock, but just as evident are the concessions made so that Bioshock would be console-friendly. That is not to say certain games wouldn't do good being simplified, but simply that consoles are quite limited because of their interface devices.

As well, what's with this BS of games designed for $5K+ computers? My personal rig cost less than $1K and there's nothing I can't play decently when near maxed... except maybe Crysis, but it's really just a glorified tech demo to me anyways. Fallout 3, Red Alert 3, Prince of Persia, Sins of a Solar Empire. They all run exceptionally well with my 1st gen Core2, 975 chipset board, 2GB or RAM, and my Radeon 4850 and they all look astonishingly good. You don't have to spend a fortune on your rig to find good performance. Unless you want a laptop to do it (those shouldn't even be called laptops, but that's another argument.)

In short - I own 2 360's and love them, but consoles will never replace my beloved PC.

Re:Absurd system requirements

[CronoCloud]

You shouldn't blame the consoles themselves for Deus Ex 2, blame the original Xbox for not including USB ports, because the PS2 port of the original Deus Ex game had mouse and keyboard support. (though using a hybrid method of controlling movement with the analog stick on the Dual Shock and aiming with the mouse works best)

I also make a firm distinction between "dumbed down" and "altered and simplified for ease of use". For UI, simpler is better. UI shouldn't be complex for complexity's sake and shouldn't get in the way of actually enjoying the game.

Re:fff

[dougisfunny]

Fast Faction Farming? What does that have to do with DRM?

Funny he should mention that...

[Balinares]

Just yesterday evening, I was browsing PC games at the local store, having reinstalled a Windows partition recently, and spotted the box version of Portal. Awesome, I told myself, been wanting to play that one ever since I heard of it, let's purchase this shit. (Mind you, everything about the plot and even the ending are utterly spoiled by now, but who cares, the gameplay seems terrific.)

But for safety, I checked out the small print at the back of the box.

Which said something along the lines of, the game you are shelling out money for will just plain not run outright, you'll have to allow it to go online and then maybe our servers will allow it to run if you accept an EULA that you'll know nothing about until then.

End result: no go, sorry. If I give money for a product, I want it to run when I feel like running it. One less sale for you, dude. (Not that you give a damn about one sale, I'm sure.)

Re:Funny he should mention that...

[JorDan Clock]

I didn't have any problem installing The Orange Box on a PC when the wireless network was down. When I finally got it back online, Steam updated the game and that was it. I can continue playing in "offline mode" which is exactly the same as "online mode" except I don't get friends list updates and snazzy things like that.

Re:Funny he should mention that...

[Balinares]

Thanks for the interesting input -- I'd mod you up, but I have already contributed to the thread, obviously.

If the game (which was standalone Portal, mind you, not the Orange Box) can indeed be installed and played offline, then my objection no longer holds. The box, however, does explicitly state otherwise; I'd like to be able to understand why.

Re:Funny he should mention that...

[TheThiefMaster]

Get the xbox 360 version of portal (in the orange box) then.

Re:Funny he should mention that...

[FrostDust]

You can definitely play offline, but you have to log in and connect to their servers before first playing, and then manually pick "Offline Mode". After that, you never have to connect again if you can't or don't want to.

DRM vs. Torture.

[crhylove]

DRM is a lot like torture:

It doesn't work.
It only hurts innocent people.
The truly guilty completely avoid it.
It makes the person doing it less popular.
It's unpleasant.
It's foolish.
It's evil.
Despite clear evidence that it IN NO WAY helps anyone, it is continuing to be done by a large institution against innocent people and other victims that have no relation to the initial causality.

If you are pro DRM, or pro torture, you are either horrifically ignorant, willfully stupid, or malevolently mis-informed.

Either way, do the math (or the research), and please wake the fuck up.

Torture and DRM are outmoded and outdated ideas that fail miserably at the assigned task, and should be completely eliminated, for the benefit of all, most importantly you promoting it.

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[Dr. Manhattan]

Smacking the side of the computer also can work to get things running, but that doesn't mean it's actually a useful tool. Here, go educate yourself. (But what does he know, he's just the guy who got someone to give up Zarqawi's location...)

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[Prien715]

It's evil.

It'll be a great day in the world when there's no genocide, starvation, or actual torture and we can call DRM evil. Until then, I think "mildly annoying" might be more appropriate.

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[bruins01]

I think you should look up what the word "anecdote" means.

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[crhylove]

Thank God, compared to the corrupt bank mother fuckers that just fleeced this country for 700 trillion or whatever.... I'm sure they are way less menacing than Zarqface or whomever I've never heard of. Quick, let's put them up in posh hotels!!

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[crhylove]

I think he does actually. Does anybody want a peanut?

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[crhylove]

You're missing the scale of this thing. If this DRM bullshit is taking even 2 minutes of anyone's precious time, anywhere, it is probably taking 2 minutes of MILLIONS OF PEOPLE'S TIME, also, which means a few 1,000 actual human lifetimes or lives.

This is the real crime here. Not that some kid wants to play a game for free. Duh.

These guys can totally suck my dick. All the way down till they mildly tickle my scrote.

And: I'M GOING TO PLAY THE GAME FOR FREE! FUCK YOU!!!!!

No, not really. I'm sure once I beat the missions I'll just go back to playing Urban Terror anyway, AND IT'S FREE!

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[Prien715]

I'm really really hoping you're being sarcastic or don't believe what you're saying.

While time is wasted on DRM, it's a game...it's as much a waste of time as commercials on TV. Or if you consider games and TV wastes of time to begin with, you should stop committing suicide.

Go play outside Timmy and let the adults handle the world's real problems.

Re:DRM vs. Torture.

[crhylove]

There is a difference between suicide and murder. One is voluntary. DRM is not voluntary. Except with bit torrent, it actually is.

I think this sums the situation up rather nicely

[Vitani]

"Until publishers do more to welcome their legitimate customers as friends instead of treating them as potential pirates, piracy will continue to eat at profits and morale."

I don't dislike Steam, but I don't like it either

[Joe U]

I'm mixed on Steam. I like the automatic downloads and automatic updates, but I'm wary of situations where 2 or 3 people in my family want to play different Steam powered games at the same time. They're locked into one account.

I won't be buying GTA IV on Steam for that reason. I don't want to lock the family out of Peggle.

The current bottom of the page quip has it right:

[Lord Byron II]

"The truth is what is; what should be is a dirty lie. -- Lenny Bruce"

The truth is that DRM sucks.

What should be is that the developers and producers should be adding additional value for legitimate consumers.

Piracy, the better choice

[Meneth]

http://www.kareldonk.com/karel/2007/01/02/piracy-the-better-choice/

I like steam too, but...

[tohoward]

I purchased Bioshock on steam, and later found out I got the unexpected bonus of additional DRM. I'm willing to live with the DRM limits that steam itself imposes, but I DAMN WELL better not get any more than that. It ticks me off that now I have to research what games I can buy on steam to see if they come with more crap. If they do, I don't see any point to purchasing on steam when I can just buy the CD/DVD...which is exactly what I did for Fallout 3. At least I get the added benefit of having real install media since I'm forced to have this crap DRM anyway.

And yes, yes, I know I could download a crack/nocd/pirate copy. In general I prefer to be able to easily update my games (esp. newer releases, which are usually at least somewhat buggy) and not have to deal with getting a new crack/nocd after a patch. Is it so hard to just sell me the damn game and let me play it?

Re:I like steam too, but...

[Bobfrankly1]

Bioshock doesn't have multi-player. Unless they are adding new content, I wouldn't sweat being unable to patch. Unless the game is broke from the beginning, it's not too much to worry about.

Which should put an end to the myth

[tkrotchko]

"As well, despite the fact that the steam version has no packaging costs, no printing costs, no warehousing costs, no stocking, shipping, or handling costs, you are still paying the same for the game as everyone else who bought it in the store."

Which highlights that games are priced for what people will pay; the cost has nothing whatsoever to do with the costs of production/development.

The corollary to this, of course, is that piracy drives up the cost of games. In fact, piracy drives down the revenue of game producers, but has no impact on price. If you think about this, it makes sense. But people still think selling price is directly related to production price, and they're really not related.

I had problems with Steam too

[danieltdp]

My case was very simple. A friend of mine bought Half Life 2 and didn't liked it (crazy guy...), so he gave me the game.

Only then I figured out that it is impossible to transfer a game from one account to another! There is no way I can play the game without stopping him from playing his other games. I contacted steam support and they just told me that it is impossible to transfer the game.

This really sucks. I, for one, just began to hate valve and steam. I don't intend to spend my money there ever again.

Re:I had problems with Steam too

[danieltdp]

Trolling some times is funny, heh!? You buy a car and then sell it to me. Is ford giving me a free car? I guess no... The same applies here.

This specific license of the game is not that important to me. But this case points out the bad scenarios I would have to deal with if I buy steam games. So, its no steam for me at all. Ever.

Re:I had problems with Steam too

[Haeleth]

So basically you're cutting off your nose to spite someone else's face? That sounds like perfectly rational behaviour.

Re:I had problems with Steam too

[danieltdp]

I don't get it. I've spent money on steam stuff before. If I do it again, isn't an additional instance of something that happened before? Why can't I say "again"?

Re:I had problems with Steam too

[danieltdp]

No, I am basically avoiding future headaches. It is a lot more simples than you are making it sound.

Steam is the worst type of DRM

[danieltdp]

Note that the account kill switch is a multiple-game license kill switch. If someone at Valve's decides that you are a fucking bastard, he can take away from you a bunch of licenses that are worth hundreds of dollars. This is the worst type of DRM I've ever seen. It combines all your stuff in one package that is all or nothing.

6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another

[tkrotchko]

"but consoles are completely locked!"

They are, but your console doesn't get hosed by a bad implementation of DRM, and better, you can sell your console games when you're done. You can also loan them to your friends if they want to play.

Re:6 of one, 1/2 dozen of another

[StarWreck]

but your console doesn't get hosed by a bad implementation of DRM,

Not entirely true. If Microsoft detects, over the internet, that you have a mod-chip, they ban your Xbox from XBox live... and then you can never play an Xbox game online again... EVER! Unless you hack it even more to let you play online while making the Xbox think you're playing on a LAN.

DRM'd games on Steam are redundant and useless

[FrostDust]

For all the power Valve seems to have, you think they'd be more resistant to the inclusion of DRM on the third party games they sell. I understand the publishers would probably play hardball, saying "keep the DRM attached or you can't sell or game," Valve isn't exactly hurting for money. I'd expect them to simply refuse to carry games with DRM systems attached, caring more of the reputation of their service and benefit of their users than making a bit more money.
I was especially surprised at the several games which featured install limits, despite being offered through Steam. Firstly, one of the key features Steam advertises being able to install and play any game anywhere, as long as you can get online. A five install, let alone a five PC, limit directly contradicts this. Secondly, Steam only allows a user to be logged in one PC at a time. If the publishers fear you buying the game and then installing it on your friend's PC, basically allowing two people to play the game for the price of one, Steam would make this unable to happen. It works even better than the DRM systems normally in use. It'd be impossible for you to install the game, then log into your friend's PC, install the game there, and both play the game simultaneously. You can't have a situation where two people are playing the game for the price of one.
If you and your friend both shared the account, and logged in and predetermined different times, then yeah, that would work. But then, there's no functional difference than if you and your friend met up and took turns on the one PC it was installed on, and Steam wouldn't be any worse at preventing this than whatever DRM is packaged with the game normally, unless it also institutes an IP limit or something.

Re:DRM'd games on Steam are redundant and useless

[Bobfrankly1]

Curious, which games offered through Steam have an install limit? I'm not asking for a complete list, but 2-3 would be good.

Re:DRM'd games on Steam are redundant and useless

[FrostDust]

They have a complete list somehwere in the Steam forums, but the Crysis expansion does have this limit, as does Far Cry 2. Furthermore, it will say in a game's system requirements panel if it uses DRM, so you can be informed before you buy the product. It's not like Steam tries to hide it from the customer.

Looking at all the comments

[Bobfrankly1]

I'm looking at all the comments and seeing roughly a 50/50 split concerning Steam. I think that really says something they Valve has the support of about half the people who are commenting here. Most of the threads that involve DRM get's slashdotters posting mostly against DRM, with few supporting it.

But Steam really does offer a value in exchange for the DRM, in that you can install on multiple computers and even perform that install right off the internet. Not everyone finds that trade-off appealing, but there are those of us that do find that trade-off to be worth it.

The AC's posting that Valve took away their accounts are amusing, as they very likely can play their purchased games off-line (might have to disable internet to get them started), and they probably were doing something that actually warranted the ban (who really wants to play with cheaters?) Posting as AC means we can't review comment history to see if it's a dunce or someone who really happens to know what they're speaking of, making it difficult to lend any weight to thier accusations unless you go through your life with a tinfoil hat on.

Steam may not be for everyone, but at least they provide a benefit in exchange for the DRM.

5 of my friends have bought GTA IV PC at retail...

[Amphetam1ne]

... 3 of them can't play for more than 5-10 minutes without securom bombing and forcing the game to close instantly. The other 2 can't even get it to start up.

Aparently it only cost Rockstar $200k to cause this much inconvenience to their legitimate users.

Am waiting to see how long it takes for a fully functional crack to come out. Been just over 48 hours so far and it appears to be harder to crack cleanly than your average copy protection. Rockstar are claiming that it's "Uncrackable", which may not have been their best choice of words when the scene crackers are motivated primarily by having the bragging rights of being the 1st to bypass the most difficult DRM.

Steam Community Makes It Worthwhile

[tepp]

I'm surprised nobody here is talking about the real feature of Steam that got me to accept it - even to change my buying style to buy games through steam first. That's the Steam Community.

I play TF2 on the same set of servers at fairly regular times. Over the months, I've become acquaintances with many of the skilled players who also play on the same servers. When they first started sending me friend invites, I was hesitant, but decided to try it.

It's turned out to be a blast. I can look at my friends list and see when a critical mass of skill is on the server, and know the game is really competitive. I know when my favorite medics or favorite healing targets are on, and know the game will be more teamwork oriented rather than just a bunch of randoms playing solo. Plus a lot of us have started talking via the steam im, discussing our gaming rigs, our tf2 keyboard layouts, etc.

The best part was when L4D came out. Most of my tf2 friends bought it, and we all started playing L4D together. It was a blast - the same people I enjoy playing TF2 with in an entirely different game, without having to do any elaborate planning. (Heck I don't even have email address for most of the people on my list, trying to coordinate that manually would be impossible). Being able to transition into an entirely new game with the same set of good people, rather than starting all over, weeding out the 5 year olds, the mic spammers, the racists, the homophobes... was so nice.

I've switched to buying almost all my games through steam. Steam Community has also turned into a nice form of viral advertising for indie games. I saw a friend of mine playing World of Goo. I im'd him, asking him if it was good. He raved about it, so I downloaded the demo free from Steam, played it, liked it, bought it. I started playing world of goo, and two other people IM'd me asking if it was good. One of them just played the demo but didn't like it, the other ended up buying the game too. And who knows if the cycle continued. So from one sale, you got 2 more via steam community reviews. That's incredibly effective word of mouth advertising... I don't normally go around asking people about games, or raving about games I play, but if I see someone playing a game I'm interested in, I'll drop them an IM to see if they like it too. The Steam Overlay which goes on top of all games - easily toggled off and on, makes it easy to carry on conversations while playing games.

Anyway that's my 0.02$. I'm not a huge fan of DRM, but Steam's made it worthwhile for me, and added a whole lot to my multiplayer gaming experience. Plus it's exposed me to a bunch of indie titles for cheap that I would've never tried otherwise - I got AudioSurf for 2$, World of Goo, the Penny Arcade Adventures, etc, all because they were being played by friends, and had good recommendations, and were easy and convenient to purchase. :)

Support GOG.com to show them that drm-free sells

[Optic7]

Don't forget about gog.com where you can buy games that are completely DRM-free, and cheap. Show the industry that this is what we want.

Re:I don't dislike Steam, but I don't like it eith

[shot151]

Couldn't you go into offline mode for the two other computers? Play games in o

How it should work

[sqrt(2)]

Steam should work like this:

I purchase a game through Steam and it downloads and is installed. It creates a directory containing all of the game data. If I want I can copy that directory to any other computer and play it as much as I want without logging in our validating or even installing steam at all. No DRM to speak of, no serial numbers, nothing. If I don't want a game anymore, I can remove it from my account and give it away or sell it to someone else.

When steam looks like that, then I'll use it. I know that will never, ever, ever happen but that's the minimum acceptable standard for me.

Re:I don't dislike Steam, but I don't like it eith

[Joe U]

Sure, until two people want to play online games. Steam needs family accounts.

Advantages of Steam

[smileytshirt]

I must say that "my friend" is an avid downloader of games/music/movies/everything from bittorrent sites, and he never thought he would ever pay for any IP that he can get for free. But ever since he installed Steam, he has actually surprised even himself and has bought many games legitimately. The reason is its just so simple, you never have to worry about patches and updates, everything just works. Not only that but "he" can install steam on his laptop, and desktop, and work computer and play his games wherever he wants to. Yes, he is concerned about the fact that his games could potentially be pulled from him at any point, but the benefits outweigh the concern in my opinion (err.. i mean "his" opinion). And it also provides opportunity for great offers. The other day he picked up Half Life original for 99c. Now you wouldn't find that in any store.

New Thoughts About Steam / DRM

[anonymous-2342342]

I've been thinking about it lately, because I like so many on this site... couldn't stand the thought of DRM... but I bought HL2 anyway, I bought Bioshock anyway... and I've come to this conclusion.

When I go play golf, I spend anywhere from $20 to $100 dollars for the round, depending on the course, or the season. I spend about $20 to $30 bucks in beer, and in turn, I get about 4 to 5 hours of entertainment.

With a good video game, I spend about $40 to $50, and I usually get about 16+ hours of entertainment out of it for a good single player game. With multi-player games, I get a good 300 to 500 hours of entertainment out of my $50 investment.

And in my thoughts about Steam and DRM in general, I realized all the complaints really don't apply to me, because I usually just play a game once, or play it till I get bored with it, then it goes on a bookshelf and never gets used again.

I have countless games on my bookshelf that I've played through once, and even a handful that I haven't even played at all. There's only a few that I've bothered to play a few times, or have dedicated 100's of hours to... such as

CS:S, Quake 1 2 3 and 4, a few Unreal Tournaments, a couple Battlefields and a few other games.

Anyway, my point of all this is, after giving some though to it, I really don't care if there is DRM in the game or not, seeing as how they all end up in a big pile on a bookshelf anyway.

Mod Parent Down!

[Rambling Paladin]

If you delete an XBL game you downloaded, you can redownload it again (for free) as many times as you damn well please - just go into your account history and select "Download Again".

You can find plenty of faults with the XBL system, but let's not stoop to FUD.