Second Google Android Phone Revealed

KrispyDroid writes "The world's second Google Android phone has been unveiled — by an Australian-based electronics company called Kogan. It will ship worldwide on Jan 29. It looks like a surprisingly nice form factor, not unlike a Blackberry Bold. The phones will be sold without a contract at low prices — $A299 ($US192)."

Comments

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[VagaStorm]

The HTC dream is currently only sold as TMobile G1 in the us, where as this one is sold world wide, at a decent price to :)

When will it become *our* phones?

[CRCulver]

For all the hype that Android was to be an open platform, there's no sign yet of a phone that is completely hackable by the end user. The docs are out there, such as The Busy Coder's Guide to Android Development , so we could see a utopia of community-driven apps, but it seems like Google is uninterested in the end user's extendibility of the platform, which was supposedly it's raison d'etre.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

...so we could see a utopia of community-driven apps, but it seems like Google is uninterested in the end user's extendibility of the platform, which was supposedly it's raison d'etre.

How is it Google's fault that developers aren't embracing the platform? It seems like that's the developers doing.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Eli Gottlieb]

If you want something completely open, you can run Trolltech's Qtopia on the latest Openmoko hardware.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

The problem is that Android is "tivoizable" and this was actually done on the HTC+TMobile product, making it no more interesting than the iPhone. Until we get a phone that doesn't use any code signing, nobody is going to be very interested in the product, because it's merely an iPhone competitor (and the iPhone has Apple's sexy marketing behind it, so you might as well just develop for that and make more money).

If this doesn't use any code signing, then this might be the beginning of Android getting serious. If it does use code signing, then Android's time just isn't here yet.

The software just doesn't matter until we have the hardware and (and non-hostile firmware!) for it to run on top of.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Nursie]

I have an openmoko freerunner running android, so IMHO that's the second android phone, though it's not on sale with android preinstalled yet, and not everything is working.

New image today - check out the Openmoko community discussion forum/mail list.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[girlintraining]

it seems like Google is uninterested in the end user's extendibility of the platform, which was supposedly it's raison d'etre.

One would hope this isn't the selling point of the phone, but rather that it is a flexible phone that meets the users' needs. The fact that it's hackable and "community-driven" is a means, not an end.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

Fucking nerds.

Why are you on Slashdot?

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Eric Smith]

If Google was uninterested in the end-user's extensibility of Android, they wouldn't have made the SDK publicly available at no charge.

I suspect the reason the G1 won't allow installation of non-signed firmware is due to carrier (T-Mobile) requirements, not because Google doesn't want you to be able to hack it.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Microlith]

If the openmoko hardware was worth a damn, then maybe.

It's OK if you don't care for fast data, or being able to reliably make phone calls.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Eli Gottlieb]

I thought the inability to make phone calls was a software issue.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[argent]

It's sold without contract to any network. They have no incentive to restrict it.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[recharged95]

If it does come out, Koolu is the answer to your question. Unfortunately it's a bit immature though they promised a working version last month (didn't happen). It shows promise. I thought it was a pipe dream as they are late on delivery, BUT you can download the source here, which shows commitment at least.

.

I'm running the openmoko Android version from Sean McNeil (check out openmoko's wiki) in dual boot mode, along with Qtopia and it shows promise too, though I think koolu's team of devs will likely reach a optimized distro quicker. Comparing both the G1 and Freerunner, Android runs faster on the G1 (of course), where as the Freerunner has the ArmV4 compatibility issue (DOH!) and the lack of keyboard (all OM touchscreen keyboards fail at this current time).

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[maxume]

Have your mom save a couple of tin cans, and then get her to buy you some string.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

comments like this will get you killed around here ... the Androids will kill off the iPhone and other "closed" platforms because it's open. that is why linux has taken over the desktop.

oops... nevermind...

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Nursie]

It is.

Unfortunately the software stack written by the openmoko guys is (and it pains me to say this) in a total shambles, and until very recently the developers basically refused to do anything about it, preferring to "look to the future" and make shiny bells and whistles. I'm watching the android software on OM very carefully because it seems to me that when the porting is finished (and it's got a decent way there, it runs and makes calls) it'll turn the OM into a decent phone.

Yes, there are problems - no camera, no 3G - but it's interesting from a linux-geek perspective at the moment.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Goaway]

And you're not allowed to complain about it if you aren't going to fix it by yourself!

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Nursie]

Have you tried todays image from Sean and the latest (oversize) kernel?

You'll need to mess around with uboot to get the large kernel going, but after that it has an onscreen keyboard and you can answer calls with it.

Far from perfect, but making progress. I do want to see what Koolu have done too.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

Or be able to touch the touchscreen!

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Goaway]

Unfortunately it's a bit immature

Neeext!

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[xaositects]

If you want something completely open, you can run Trolltech's Qtopia on the latest Openmoko hardware.

when they finally find their direction maybe.
oh, and offer a keyboard that can be used without the head of a straight pin as a stylus.

3G would be useful as well.

Qtopia is getting there but still has a long way to go for running a phone of everyday use.

what it is good for is having a little linux-based computer to carry around performing network intrusion tests and the like. As a phone, though, no thanks.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Timmmm]

But Android doesn't have an on-screen keyboard, and the Neo Freerunner doesn't have a physical keyboard (and the screen doesn't really look big enough for an on screen one anyway). So how do you type?

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

the iphone is a superior device but I'll get an android phone because I want to tinker with it, I already know java and I don't feel like paying for an apple SDK or selling apps.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Eli Gottlieb]

Right, that's what I thought. I figured it was OK if you ran Qtopia instead of the OpenMoko distribution, but the GGP claims that the OpenMoko hardware makes it unreliable at making phone calls.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Nursie]

Nah, it's just poor software as far as I can tell. The infuriating thing about the 2008.X stack (for me) was that the UI was unresponsive so that when you hit "pick up" it would take a while to register the button press. In the mean time I don't know if it's registered it or not so I hit it again. But then the hang up button appears in the same place and it's stored up the mouse click to apply to that...

Could have killed that damn phone right then.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[geeklawyer]

And you're not allowed to complain about it if you aren't going to fix it by yourself!

I guess you're new to Open Source ;)

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Kazin]

You, like most other people, seem to think that Google has some sort of say in wether the phones are hackable or not. Google published (and open-sourced) the OS and SDK. What manufacturers do with their phones is their business.

And like someone else said, if you want a fully hackable phone, go get an OpenMoko. Nobody promised you that Android would be this.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[unixfan]

What about supporting open media formats like OGG and FLAC?!! The owner talks bout being a long time OSS supporter, but ignores these vital formats! Weak!

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

But Android doesn't have an on-screen keyboard [yet]

FTFY. I believe part of the porting process to the openmoko hardware was dedicated to implementing an onscreen keyboard. Can anyone confirm this?

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[sootman]

He might have gotten confused by the name and thought this was some other kind of "slash" site. :-) No worries, happens all the time.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

For some people, it IS the end.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[supernova_hq]

Have you looked at the Nokia N-Series (N700/N800)? Most of their phones run linux out of the box, with root access only a "apt-get install chroot" away.

I have the N810 (ok, not actually a phone, but same line) and it runs maemo (debian derivative) by default. I have full root access, can SSH into it remotely, do rDesktop, add custom repositories, install deb files, etc. Basically it's a linux computer that fits in your pocket!

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[chill]

Oh, man. That one continually shoots my blood pressure thru the roof. It does the same thing on QTopia.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[mmurphy000]

there's no sign yet of a phone that is completely hackable by the end user

If you're referring to the ability to replace the firmware, that is definitely a disappointment. However, that's between HTC and T-Mobile. With Android published under the Apache License 2.0, there's not much anyone can do to force HTC and T-Mobile to allow self-signed firmware. My hope, though, is that some of these non-carrier devices, like the one cited in the OP, will allow replacement firmware. Only time will tell.

The docs are out there, such as The Busy Coder's Guide to Android Development.

Thanks for the shout-out!

so we could see a utopia of community-driven apps, but it seems like Google is uninterested in the end user's extendibility of the platform, which was supposedly it's raison d'etre.

On the apps front, I suspect part of the hang-up is that the Android Market — the closest counterpart to the iPhone App Store — is only supporting free apps right now. Vendors interested in turning a buck (or yen or euro or whatever) either need to use one of the other markets or wait for the Android Market to start supporting paid-for apps. That's reputedly coming in Q1.

Even given that, the Android Market has a fair number of apps there. I don't remember the release rates for the iPhone apps when its SDK was released, but I'd be a bit surprised if Android is dramatically off the pace. Yes, many of the apps are trivial (umpteen tip calculators, flashlights, etc.), but it's not like every iPhone or WinMo app is a blockbuster. Considering hardware has been available for 5-6 weeks, I'm relatively pleased with the response to date, for what my opinion is worth.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[NickFortune]

One would hope this isn't the selling point of the phone, but rather that it is a flexible phone that meets the users' needs. The fact that it's hackable and "community-driven" is a means, not an end.

I suppose the question following on from there is selling point to whom?.

If the sales pitch is directed at phone manufacturers, then giving them a cheap software stack that they can customise to suit their desires, and then lock down tight, Is probably going to be very appealing. That said, it doesn't really offer the end user very much in that scenario.

If it's selling to end user, as in trying get people excited about using Android, then, really, it's got to be hackable.

It's a tricky one for Google. Do you GPLv3 the stack, and hope that community pressure will drive adoption? Or do you licence the code so it can be locked down, and hope for buy in from the manufacturers who want to use DRM on ringtones or are frightened you might filter out their SMS spam?

I couldn't really blame Google for going for the second option, but I can surely understand the disappointment of those who'd hoped for something that would be open to the end user.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[sreid]

my thoughts exactly... pls mod parent insightful

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[KZigurs]

I am a mobile developer. So far all android related has been going exactly the way I expected when 6 months ago I said to colleague 'meh, whey will fuck it up.'
They have, at least for me as developer. First device is a [nice, but still] clumsy brick for fanboys. Main selling point is that it is open and something instead of being easy to use and cool. Target audience is exactly the same idiots that used to buy HTC windows mobile shit (and not use even 1% of what they could do with them, while still feeling somehow superior to a fckn nokia 6310i, in example). And guess what - it is actually made by HTC too (what essentially guarantees that it will disintegrate within 6-9 months).
Yes, it is a nice platform. Yes, it had a lot of promise. No, open model does not work if you want to create consumer market. No, there is zero chance that after start like this there will be any real hit device for the platform. Yes, iPhone is better. Yes, googles' app store will fail to take off exactly thanks to the fact that it is still not clear who the customer will be.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[mrchaotica]

And on top of all that, it does you absolutely no good (up to this point) if you use a carrier other than T-Mobile.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[quenda]

So how do you type?

It has a USB port, right?

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[johanatan]

Hey listen, that came from sexconker. I'd say he has a pretty good grasp of what is sexy or not.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[sciurus0]

Can you leave your phone turned on for 24 hours without charging it? I'd love to get an Openmoko running the Qtopia or Android stack if they have working power management.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

There is also no sign of how much storage is available. To be really competitive with the iphone it should match its storage. So the android should sell both the 8gb and 16gb, or better.

So far we have heard nothing, but it does look tempting.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Mr2001]

Until we get a phone that doesn't use any code signing, nobody is going to be very interested in the product, because it's merely an iPhone competitor (and the iPhone has Apple's sexy marketing behind it, so you might as well just develop for that and make more money).

But to develop for the iPhone, you need to get a $99 development license, and then you still have to play by Apple's rules: no emulators, no competing with built-in apps, etc.

Developing for Android is free, and there are no limitations on what you're allowed to develop or distribute. You can write software that not only competes with built-in apps, but actually replaces them. And you can distribute them through Google's marketplace, through a competing marketplace, through your own web site, or anywhere else.

Code signing only means that you can't replace the OS with a version you've compiled yourself... but even that is being worked around.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Directrix1]

I am an app developer (mobile included). I have developed a couple of apps for the Android platform just to test the SDK. It works pretty well, but lacks some dialogs which are standard on desktop OS's (color picker, file save/open dialogs). All of that is kind of offloaded to the developer. It has *A LOT* of great potential to extend every part of the OS's interface. I am far more excited for Android than iPhone since iPhone really restricts what you can do with it. Hell you can't even have an app run in the background. How dumb is that?

Android won't compete with iPhone as much at first simply because there isn't enough marketing. But it will catch up and then some once more power apps (free even, gasp) show up. As far as the G1 goes, its a pretty nice phone, but making it T-Mobile only in the US was not very smart. T-Mobile has very little 3G support throughout the US. Nothing against T-Mobile really, its just young in that respect.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[AC-x]

On the Moon, nerds get their pants pulled down and they are spanked with Moonrocks

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[ChunderDownunder]

Type??? It's a phone for heavens sake! Keyboards are sooooo last millennium.
If you must, carry a fold up bluetooth keyboard, or one of those lasery things - or, heaven forbid, ssh.
For everything else, dictation. I'm sure google has, or should shortly have, a 3G voice to SMS service.
And if you must spell something out there's always November Alfa Tango Oscar.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Timmmm]

So when you need to enter someone's name, write a text message or type in a URL you need to get out your bluetooth keyboard?

Are you being serious?

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[ChunderDownunder]

Nope. :)

I have a phone with a slide out 12-key thumb-pad. At no stage would I consider that 'typing'.

Smart-phone users, at times, sound like they want to compose vast tomes on these things...

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Threni]

I've heard about Android for a while, and it sounds great. I like Google as a company too. I really wanted to get an Android phone, but that first one, physical construction wise, is a tacky plasticy piece of crap. Now I have to wait, and because I tend to get 12/18 month contracts (cheaper that way) I'll probably miss out on Android for that period of time. Perhaps, though, by then there'll be one which is somewhere close to the iPhone in looks and (more importantly) construction.

Incidentally, perhaps someone reading this can explain why some manufacturers opt for such crappy construction quality for their kit? Not the motherboard, chips etc - just the case, hinges, connectors etc? Aren't they built for next to nothing? Isn't it worth spending a few more pence/cents (whatever) to make the box you put your hard r&d/software into look a little less like something you've got from a christmas cracker?

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Nursie]

24 hours?

You've gotta kidding right?

This thing has one of the biggest capacity batteries you can get in that sort of form factor and.... no. It barely lasts 12. One of the many not working things on Android is suspend, so it just sits there and burns power by illuminating its screen.

There's a long way to go. I love playing with it, but I have another phone for actual use. I tried for two months when on holiday and would gladly have taken a hammer to it several times.

Dunno about Qtopia though, never tried that one.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Nursie]

Well, unlike the iPhone, the android phones have a micro SDHC slot, so you can put cards in. I consider this a strong point.

But yes, they ought to try and match or better apple's internal storage too.

My main problem with the G1 or HTC or whatever it is - It's ugly. The openmoko's not the world's prettiest device either. Apple have everyone beat on looks.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[sexconker]

Troll?
Really?

You missed the fucking joke!

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Eric Smith]

I agree that the G1 isn't nearly as stylish in appearance as the iPhone. However, the physical construction seems quite solid.

If you're referring to the display motion, that's actually quite robust, even though to a casual inspection it might not seem that way. A lot of engineering and testing went into that mechanism.

Personally, I don't choose a phone for the purpose of impressing other people with how cool I am. The G1 works quite well, so not being as stylish as the iPhone doesn't bother me that much. The phone usually spends more than 23 hours a day either in my pocket or on the nightstand, so it's not as if I spend a great deal of time looking at it.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[MathiasTCK]

It's $25 to distribute through the Android Marketplace

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[MathiasTCK]

From google's announcement on their Android blog today

"
Second, many of you have asked if developer devices will be available. We've worked with our partners to create a program for developers to purchase devices that enable them to test and debug applications more easily.
"

You can buy what seems to be basically be the same phone as the G1 unlocked straight from google for $400, and they specifically state you can install your own firmware.

Re:When will it become *our* phones?

[Anonymous Coward]

I thought that the point of Android being open source was so that we could see phones like the Agora, which is super low priced WITHOUT a contract and being controlled by big carriers... NOT necessarily so that is could be completely hackable by the end user. That simply wouldn't be practical to the vast majority of people in the world; cheap smartphones are. - even though I wouldn't mind Android running on my HTC s620.

Sweet

[religious freak]

I think I might buy one, I try to avoid 1.0 anything. This one should be solid. I've had my same cell phone for about 4 years now; guess it's probably time for an upgrade.

Re:Sweet

[Korin43]

Be careful, it won't be out of beta until 2015!

Oh my, should one CLONE an android?

[Anonymous Coward]

God's law has been shat on now

OMG

[sexconker]

The first gPhone was good, but not great.
Android's had some growing pains, but now we've finally got a real iPhone killer on our hands.

(Yes, they call every Android-based phone a "gPhone".)

Re:OMG

[sexconker]

Damned /. ripping out my
</retarded Google fanboy>
line.

Re:OMG

[Anonymous Coward]

Needs to add in a tag in before the post.

Re:OMG

[amRadioHed]

Isn't gPhone a downgrade from an iPhone? I'm holding out for the jPhone.

Re:OMG

[Anonymous Coward]

No no no, you got it all wrong... zPhone is the lowest price and aPhone is the best. So jPhone is below iPhone and gPhone is above iPhone but below aPhone.

Re:OMG

[Anonymous Coward]

Sorry but this blackberry wanna be is no competitor to the tmobile branded gphone let alont the iphone. Just because something has chrome and has shiney plastic/metal doesn't mean its "good/better" Look at the specs, heck the camera is only a 2.0 where the tmobile g1 is 3.2. that's a downgrade!!

One thing i like about my g1 is the fact that its a matte/slightly rubberized finish since its not slippery and doesn't slip out of my hands as often as old iphone, AND it doesn't show any finger prints! (not counting screen!) so you can have all of your chrome and shiney.

meh...

[Farmer Pete]

I'm personally a little more interested in a phone that truly is open, not just one that is claimed to be open. The unlocked aspect of this model is nice, but I have a feeling that is more of an Australian thing, and less of an Android thing.

Re:meh...

[Eric Smith]

Until it ships, we won't know how open it is. Even ignoring the carrier lock, the G1 won't install non-signed firmware, so it's less open than many of us would like. Since the Kogan phone isn't carrier-locked, maybe it will allow non-signed firmware as well.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[Andy_R]

The T-Mobile G1 is not just US only, it's also on sale under the same name here in the United Kingdom.

Warning - design is not final yet

[ribuck]

From Kogan's website:

The design of the Kogan Agora and Kogan Agora Pro, when dispatched, will be materially similar to the images set out on this website. Despite this, Kogan Technologies reserves the right to make non-material modifications to the design of the phones in its sole discretion.

Also, I won't be surprised if the shipping date slips.

Re:Warning - design is not final yet

[kiehlster]

Also, I won't be surprised if the shipping date slips.

But it would have been so cool if this phone was released on my birthday. I guess I won't buy one after all. It's too expensive for a non-birthday splurge.

Re:Warning - design is not final yet

[Anonymous Coward]

It already has..

Re:Warning - design is not final yet

[pablodiazgutierrez]

Hey, I was thinking the same! In fact, I just sent this link to my girlfriend. Hi hun! Still, it's expensive even for a bday... Perhaps splitting the cost :).

Re:Warning - design is not final yet

[Hadlock]

Well it's a freight shipment from China, which are notoriously late. Unless you own all the product on the ship (think apple at a major product launch like the iPhone, new iMac, etc), you're screwed, especially if you're using a budget carrier which he undoubtedly is. Jan 29th means he was told "last week in January" which means "third week of february". Depending on how badly he's pissed off samsung for lifting the curtian behind the wizard of oz on how LCD manufacturing works, they may pull some strings to get it caught up in customs for a few weeks and make him sweat it out.

Why is it not OPEN open ?

[rixster_uk]

Follow the money - manufacturer makes the phone, sells it for x to the network. If and only if network sees a potential to earn at least x/2 from services (internet / sms /mms etc etc ) will it then allow you to buy the phone for x/2...
If the OS was fully open, then there would be no incentive for the network to buy the phone and subsidize the price - i.e. if you want a truly open phone - you'll get it but at a price.
Shameless plug: I've got both the iphone sdk and the android sdk - I find the google sdk 20x easier to get stuff done and the marketplace puts your apps up *instantly* (upgrades and all). However, the marketplace is suffering from kids abusing the comment capability but when that's nailed (and of course the ability to actually charge for apps) I think we will see very high quality apps coming out for the google phone. Or at least I hope so - I'm writing a game in progress which I hope to earn a bit of cash. (Even more shameless plug : http://www.barcodebeasties.com/ )

Re:Why is it not OPEN open ?

[Microlith]

Technically, since this phone is being sold directly it's highly likely that the phone will be as open as can be, short of openmoko's level.

If the OS was fully open, then there would be no incentive for the network to buy the phone and subsidize the price - i.e. if you want a truly open phone - you'll get it but at a price.

It's more the other way around, the networks buy the phone and subsidize the price and thus work with the hardware manufacturer to lock down the OS. Phones you can get around this with almost always tend to, as you said, come at a price. Such as this which isn't that bad, really, but we'll know more at the end of January when people get their hands on it.

Shame about the display though, but that's what you get in the form factor it uses.

Re:Why is it not OPEN open ?

[i_b_don]

I'm sorry, but i don't get it. Phone companies give you phones or discount phones for you purely to get you to sign their contract. Why do they care one whit for how open or not a phone is? they wouldn't care if they had to give you a "massage" from a beautiful girl if it would get you to sign the contract just so long as you put your John Hancock on the dotted line.

The only time this appears to be a factor is when they sell you the special features, text messaging etc, ring tones, etc. Is this really what you're arguing is that they absolutely refuse to "open" the OS to keep those two cash cows restricted to their 10 cents a letter pricing scheme? That doesn't really smell right. There's just no way they can contain those in the era of the smart phone.

Beyond that, using a phone on a different network seems rather a small concern. After 2 years on a contract every phone company is trying to "sell" you a shinny new phone anyway to temp you into switching. So the concern that you might pick up and move to a different company with the same phone seems like peanuts.

The Android won't change that either. Even if the Android took off and you purchase an "open" model... you don't think that in two years you wouldn't want to pick up the new faster model that's smaller, looks cooler, has more memory and a better screen?

I feel like i'm missing something in the whole "there's no way a phone company wouldn't lock down their phones" argument.

d

I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[caseih]

I don't really need or want an iPhone or an Android phone. What I want is a nice, compact, multi-touch platform like the iPod Touch that runs android. Android has the potential to power a real iPod killer that's a nice platform for all kinds of apps.

Initially I was very excited about the iPod Touch and bought one. But Apple's desire to completely and utterly control what I do with my own device has really turned me off of it. If I could have a similar device that was open to installation of apps and development without deferring to the whims of Google or any other manufacturer, I'd gladly shell out another $300 for an android device sans phone. Seems like manufactures aren't even bothering to compete with Apple in general (maybe android isn't good enough to compete with the iPhone and iPod touch), but rather are aiming for the already existing market of mediocre products such as blackberry, palm, and windows smartphones. Kind of sad, really. In this market things like video and audio playback seem almost like afterthoughts, which poorly designed apps to do this and little to no support for integrating with PC-based software, such as would be similar to iTunes. Sure you can dump songs on a little chip, but how well does the playback system work? is it fully integrated like it is on the iPhone and obviously the iPod Touch? How well can it integrate with Amarok or Songbird? Seems like there are a lot of opportunities here. Of course maybe they feel the mp3 player market is so saturated that it doesn't matter. After all business users care mainly about their e-mail. I get the impression I will never be in the target market for any of these companies.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Nursie]

"I'd gladly shell out another $300 for an android device sans phone."

Android can successfully be run on the Nokia N810, An internet tablet with WiFi (and there's a WiMAX version too).

Maybe a little more than $300, but as a foreigner I don't know how to access google US to do a shopping search.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[whisper_jeff]

Android has the potential to power a real iPod killer...

I've read that, in regards to other products, about 100 times before. Eventually it'll be true...

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Anonymous Coward]

I think you would be surprised by the flexibility and well-designed-ness of the G1. Although it doesn't support multitouch, the platform is generally well designed. Media support runs well (I would say as well as the iPhone), and although there's no amarok/songbird integration, banshee's latest version will support full android integration. Don't get too down on the platform yet, good stuff is coming...

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[michaelfellis]

If you're willing to pay an additional $300 for a phone you can install your own applications on, you could put $201 of that money back in your pocket and spend just $99 to become a registered iPhone developer. Once you've done that, you'll have a developer certificate that permits you to create and install as many applications as you want on your device.

If your applications work well, you could then either give them away via the App Store or, if you choose, you might even get compensated for your effort. In the latter case, you could very likely recover at least the $99 you invested.

Seems to me like the Touch was a good choice after all.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[caseih]

I'm afraid you've dramatically missed the point. I'm not interested in selling my soul to Apple for this privilege. Initially I only made the purchase (and arguably it was foolish) because I knew I could jailbreak the device and do what I wanted with it. However, Apple chose to go to war against those who would use the device in ways Apple didn't want (oh the irony of living in a free country) and they have decided it's illegal for me to use my iPod to sync against Amarok if I ever upgrade to 2.x (which they practically force on me every time I plug it into a computer with iTunes on it).

I want a platform that I'm free to do anything I want with, since I own it. I want to be able to write new software, access the shell, sync against amarok, etc. I don't want to pay apple $100 for the privilege of accessing a device I already own and should have access too. That's just silly and a bit ludicrous if you think about it. Cue the bad car analogies... Sure we'll sell you a car. But if you want access to the trunk you have to pay us for a trunk license and then we reserve the right to take away the key at any time if we see fit.

As for being compensated for my work, Apple's policies don't even allow GPL'd software at all, so I couldn't even offer my work to others to begin with.

In hindsight, the iPod was a stupid buy. It doesn't work well with just about anything. I can't easily attach peripherals to it, except what Apple sanctions. However at the time it was the best device (when jailbroken) on the planet. I'm hoping that a device with Android will reach that point soon.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Anonymous Coward]

Nokia n810 running Linux Maemo is probably the closest you'll come to what you're looking for.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[EvilNTUser]

The N810 already runs Linux with a Nokia UI. There's no reason to install Android.

In addition, Nokia has been shipping phones that let you install anything you want for years, and their phone OS will become open source as of next year. They even provide native Python interpreters.

The main reason Nokia is so unpopular in the US is that they refused to cripple their phones as much as the carriers wanted. Unfortunately even nerds in America are apparently too dependent on force fed advertising.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[HardCase]

oh the irony of living in a free country

"And the award for worst misuse of the term 'free country' in a /. thread goes to..."

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[bigstrat2003]

Apple's policies don't even allow GPL'd software at all, so I couldn't even offer my work to others to begin with.

The GPL isn't a prerequisite for offering your work to others.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Anonymous Coward]

Despite the inability to freely modify the OS on a device like the G1 actual development seems to be much more open than on the iphone. First of all, you don't have to go through the Android Market for new apps. That is currently what pay applications have to do due to the lack of pay support on the Market currently. Even if you do use the Market Google has stated that they won't take down apps that "compete" with their applications. There are also a number of applications that can make fairly large changes to the system(the installer specifically tells you what you are granting it access to). For example, you can switch out the default sound/ringtone selector to be able to read from mp3 and an audio recorder. There is another one that can modify the animation on screen transitions. I would say at this point the system is far less locked down than the iphone.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[sacrilicious]

The N810 already runs Linux with a Nokia UI. There's no reason to install Android.

Last I looked, the development procedures for the Nokia tablets involved having to do cross compiling, and required tools that could only be run on linux (not on osx, not on windows). If this is still the case, I'd say there's a significant reason to install Android.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[amohat]

"I'd gladly shell out another $300 for an android device sans phone."

Like somebody already said, there are and have been very suitable alternatives for people like you. Who are looking for a tiny little handheld computer.

You may find this odd, but you are a insignificant minority. The rest of us want a phone, need a phone, and will never be satisfied until the tiny little handheld computer also handles all our communications, especially voice. (preferably, over IP)

On a side note, I can't wait until something like Android becomes a ubiquitous embedded platform on any hardware they can think of to stuff it in...yes, with phone! Vehicles, appliances, furniture, it calls us, we call it...flying cars not far behind!

As for the rest of us, if it doesn't do phone, and do it well, we don't want it. Thankfully, we got phones aplenty...now we just need one that is a decent tiny little computer...and the iphone aint it, not even close.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Anonymous Coward]

so jailbreak you iPod Touch. Here is a list of some of the howto's etc.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[johanatan]

Or, maybe it was that NGAGE thingy that left a bad taste in their mouths??

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[black_lbi]

The main reason Nokia is so unpopular in the US is that they refused to cripple their phones as much as the carriers wanted. Unfortunately even nerds in America are apparently too dependent on force fed advertising.

Or maybe that sorry excuse for an OS (called Symbian) has something to do with it ...
I have a Nokia N73 ... and the OS is painfully slow ... I don't understand how going through some menus can take so damn long. I'm not even talking about browsing.
And why are there so many versions of the os? symbian 6, 6.1 v2 v3, uiq, 9 ... what the hell? It doesn't feel right, it just seems like bad hw/sw design.
Finally, nokia phones are pretty expensive, considering their capabilities ...

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Nursie]

Are you in the US?

They're not that pricy in europe, AFAICT. I think it's an artifact of their non-cooperation with the US telcos love of disbaling all the functions on the phone so they can squeeze you for more money.

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[MathiasTCK]

I agree completely. I similarly love my Ipod touch (although I wish I had generation 2 with the speaker and external volume control). Before that I used a blackberry curve to connect to my WiFi, (and before that a Nokia series 40).

Re:I just want an android device, not a smartphone

[Beyond_GoodandEvil]

The main reason Nokia is so unpopular in the US is that they refused to cripple their phones as much as the carriers wanted. Unfortunately even nerds in America are apparently too dependent on force fed advertising.
Another reason may be Nokia's latest phones inability to work well w/ in car bluetooth systems. My Nokia E61 which I find a joy to use doesn't work at all w/ the bluetooth system in my BMW, the old ngage handset I have does. Thus for long trips I have to swap the sim into the ngage if I want to use the bluetooth in the car. Now, the car's bluetooth will work w/ the moto razr no problem, so this fault lies at the feet of Nokia.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[VagaStorm]

Oh yes, I forgot. It should be on sale now or soon in other TMobile markeds. No word yet as to when the dream version wil be available in the rest of the world :(

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[Enderandrew]

I wasn't aware the G1 was the Dream. Okay, I am firmly an idiot. Thanks. Do you know if any other carriers might possibly pick up the Dream?

Link to the manufacturer

[quarterbuck]

They are selling them at $299 on their website
$399 with Camera and GPS .
I hope the prices are in Australian dollars, that would make it a pretty good buy
And the website has this comment "PRE-ORDER NOW TO AVOID DISAPPOINTMENT - DEMAND WILL EXCEED SUPPLY!"
I wonder how they know for certain that demand WILL exceed supply ?

Re:Link to the manufacturer

[turtledawn]

They're only building one and they promised it to Sergei. :-p

Re:Link to the manufacturer

[ianare]

The Agora will cost AU$299, and the Agora Pro will be AU$399.

$299 AUD ~= $195 USD
$399 AUD ~= $260 USD

Re:Link to the manufacturer

[knavel]

According to their checkout process, it IS in Australian currency. So it comes out to just under $300 USD, including international shipping.

Dammit, now I want one. I wonder if the battery life is any better than the G1?

Re:Link to the manufacturer

[glittalogik]

http://xe.com/ucc

Recent worldwide economic conditions have raped the Australian dollar right through its pants. It's going to be quite a long time until AU$300 is 'just under' US$300 again...

Re:Link to the manufacturer

[quenda]

Those prices include 10% tax, which international orders should not be paying.

Re:Link to the manufacturer

[Anonymous Coward]

no, i meant $399 AUD (for the pro model) + international shipping costs is approx $300 USD.

disclaimer: my math may still suck

Which cell providers will support it?

[Anonymous Coward]

Does anyone know which cell phone companies in the U.S. will support this phone?

Re:Which cell providers will support it?

[ianare]

it's unlocked, so any service that accepts :
GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz), 3G
should work.

Display resoultion

[Eric Smith]

Is half that of the G1. Not bad for the price, but if I had to choose between the two I'd pick the G1. Since I'm a developer, I'll buy one anyhow, to ensure that my apps work well on it.

Different hardware spec to the G1

[Andy_R]

The first thing that strikes me about this phone is that the spec is noticeably different from the other shipping Android phone, the screen is 320x240 not 480x320, and the camera is 2 megapixel not 3.2.

It will be very interesting to see how well the software on the AppStore^H^H^H^H Android MarketTM works on different hardware, and how many developers will be willing and/or able to patch their software to work on it.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[Microlith]

Probably about as well as the overall marketplace for Windows Mobile apps and other smartphones is, IE it's terribly fragmented and support for some things is incredibly spotty. You may find interesting apps that don't support your resolution, or don't rotate properly.

Each permutation of the hardware that is added requires more testing to ensure it works. The fact that JAVA is being used hasn't helped much in the cell phone world. In contrast, Apple's console-like iPhone and iPod Touch have attracted developers far more quickly than any other non-console mobile platform.

I guess that's the tradeoff for openness, you're guaranteed fragmentation.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[Anonymous Coward]

If the 2 megapixel camera has better glass it will decimate the 3.2 megapixel with a crap lens.

Megapixels mean nothing in picture quality. never shop by megapixels.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[immcintosh]

Android applications, if properly made, are pretty screen-agnostic. The UI layout code is designed to heavily emphasize relative placement rather than absolute. Hell, even on the G1 you need a little leeway because of the way everything changes size when you flip the screen orientation.

Overall, only the very laziest developers should have to do any significant patching, if any at all.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[joshv]

It is sometimes *really* hard to make apps that work at all resolutions when you don't have much screen real estate. One of my apps will break horribly on this new screen layout, and I am not sure how to fix it. The other should work ok, but it won't be as usable, and will limit the amount of functionality. Detecting all this will be an utter nightmare.

My guess is that many of the android market apps will not work properly on this new phone.

This is what I like about the iPhone - there is *one* resolution and two orientations - that's it.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[joshv]

That's all well and good until I have to fit a certain amount of data on the screen. If I've designed for a larger screen, it's simply not going to fit, however flexible the layout.

Now I could design for the lowest possible screen resolution, but that will limit functionality or force me to produce a UI that's artificially small on larger screens.

Even the studious developers will have a lot of work to do making their apps work properly at lower resolutions.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[immcintosh]

Have you done much development with the Android API and actually used the phones? I have a hard time thinking of any program you'd be making on a mobile phone that wouldn't be able to easily scale by 100 pixels one way or another. Certainly nothing I have on my G1 would qualify as such. And having played around making some apps with the API, it really encourages you to design in a way that scales transparently to different screen sizes.

I'm curious what sort of program you're envisioning that has to cram so much into a non-scrollable area that it couldn't reasonably be resized.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[lwsimon]

Depends on the use. There is definately a lower limit to the resolution of the sensor, under which the best glass in the world won't help. Its around 1.0 - 2.0 MP for a cameraphone, I'd say, as I don't see anyone printing those.

In this case, yes, it will. For a pocket cam, around 6MP is the lower limit - anything over that, shop glass first, higher MP is gravy.

I do pro-level photography with my Nikon D70, which is 6.3MP. After Photoshop and processing, I've printed up to 24x36" with fair quality. Out of the camera, 6.3MP = 280dpi @ 8x10" -- more than enough for most uses.

(I use a full-frame DSLR for jobs where higher quality is needed)

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[joshv]

I've developed two successful apps. One somewhat successful, one very successful. The most successful one is the most resolution independent. In coding it, I've done nothing that depends on any particular resolution. It randomly crashes in the emulator using QVGA (the resolution of the Aussie google phone). Even if it didn't crash, several of the screens are next to useless in the lower resolution, there is simply not enough space without recoding them.

Now, I could recode my app to use smaller fonts, lower the width/height of the UI components - but it would make my app less useful on the G1. Why would I want to do such a thing?

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[immcintosh]

Dollars to donuts the crashing is on account of the emulator, not the program. It's a nice emulator, but I've actually had some stability problems with it just running with default settings.

Mind if I ask which program it is that can not be reasonably scaled down without making the fonts too small? I haven't really found any on my phone so far that seem like they'd fit the bill. Not that I don't believe you, more that I want to see what sorts of designs to ideally try to avoid when I start porting stuff to the platform.

Re:Different hardware spec to the G1

[joshv]

My apps run fine in the emulator at 320x480, no crashes.

Here is the deal, at 320x240, I go from 480 vertical pixels to 240. Ouch. Now I guess you could force the people who bought this new POS android phone to flip their phone sideways so that my app has 320 pixels - still quite a crunch - and have fun typing on this phone sideways.

But regardless, supporting such low resolution will take some doing on my part, and require me to maintain separate layouts, and possibly different code paths that reduce functionality or make other compromises. And at some point there are just some things that can't reasonably be done in half the screen real estate. I am likely not going to take the time to support such low screen resolutions in my apps.

Actually, this is the third Android phone

[Anonymous Coward]

zzzPhone is supposedly already shipping their fully customized phone running Android, and the price is considerably lower. Plus you can add darn near any feature you might want. If they actually deliver, they'll be the ones to beat.

Re:Actually, this is the third Android phone

[Inzite]

Have you actually seen a zzzPhone? Even a video of a zzzPhone?

All I've seen are Photoshopped images, and very poor ones at that (far worse than the Agora images).

Until someone gets a zzzPhone in their hands, it's vaporware.

Re:Actually, this is the third Android phone

[Em Ellel]

Never heard of these guys before, but looking at their site, somehow I doubt it will ever see the light of day. Looks like vaporware scam at its finest. That said, I'm willing to be surprised. (Not sending them a dime though.)

-Em

Re:Actually, this is the third Android phone

[PenguinX]

I looked at the zzzphone site, and was inclined to agree with you but there are reviews of the product on Youtube and other sites:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y-qnewSjATw

Apparently the old saying is true, "can't tell a whether or not a smartphone is a scam by its webpage".

-b

Re:Actually, this is the third Android phone

[Em Ellel]

Apparently the old saying is true, "can't tell a whether or not a smartphone is a scam by its webpage".

LOL. After I posted I did some Googling and general findings are:

* You may or may not get anything when you pay

* If you do get something, what you get may or may not have anything to do with what you ordered.

* What's inside the box may be different than what it says on the outside of the box it came in - from little things like megapixel count to bigger things like what OS is used to huge things like frequency compatibility (i.e. does not work in the US)

* The owner of the business is an American living in China who refuses to have his real name associated with the company.

So it is not a direct scam, just a crappy product from a shady company...

I think review demonstrated some of it. My favorite bit of the review is: "well, you have to turn it on and off a few times until it works..."

-Em

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[digitalunity]

The phone you speak of is sold in the US under contract or at ridiculous retail prices without contract. This phone is unique as it's one of the few phones with excellent functionality that can be purchased at a reasonable cost without a contract.

Most consumers actually like getting their phones at very low subsidized cost through their wireless carrier but I'm a firm believer this has an astoundingly negative impact on competition. The wireless carriers dictate to the device manufacturers which features are allowed.

Separating phone functionality from the control of the carriers will TREMENDOUSLY improve competition and have a very beneficial impact on end users. I'm a little surprised the FTC hasn't stepped in already on behalf of consumers. Wireless plans in the US have gone up dramatically in cost over the last 15 years. The phone companies like to quote cost:minute rates because it makes them look cheaper. The fact is, the cost of text messaging has gone UP and data transfer rates are still prohibitive for most end users to really use the full capacity of their phones.

no 3G

[slashdotmsiriv]

so, I'll pass

The Kogan!

[Anonymous Coward]

The Kogan?

There can be only one!!

Re: yes 3G

[Em Ellel]

For you and other reading-challenged - from the very beginning of the article:

Both models include HSDPA 3G, Bluetooth 2.0+ EDR, QWERTY keyboard, 2.5â touchscreen and a microSD slot. The Pro adds WiFi, GPS and a 2.0 megapixel camera to the base model's specs.

accelerometer?

[sucati]

either no accelerometer on this or they just didn't list it.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[Enderandrew]

I agree that data plans are pretty ridiculous, but I think we will move away from the "per text message charge" era and people will embrace the unlimited plans. When everyone is offering a true unlimited plan for $99, then choosing networks is actually a matter of networks or unique features. I think it will force carriers to improve their networks and offer better speeds, or start lowering the price of their unlimited plan.

Dollars?

[19061969]

Is this USD or AUD? The page seems to be a US page (and anyway, USD is the most commonly quoted currency) but it discusses a phone being released in Oz so I'm not sure.

Re:Dollars?

[duplicate-nickname]

If you think Australian Personal Computer Magazine is a US site, then there isn't much we can do to help you.

Re:Dollars?

[raju1kabir]

What is even one thing about the page that makes you think it's a "US page"?

• "nine" is an Australian TV network. It's nothing in the US.
• The headline says "Australian".
• The article mentions Australia twice in the first paragraph.
• The iPhone ad on the right side lists a bunch of Australian cell phone companies (Optus, etc.) that don't mean anything in the US.
• The "Most discussed stories" box mentions Australia or Australian ISP iiNet in almost half the headlines and mentions the US in none.
• The comments are full of words like "Bollocks" and citations from Australian web sites.
• The copyright notice at the bottom references a Pty Ltd. When's the last time you saw one of those in the US?

I'm not Australian (Lord be praised) and this was obvious to me within half a second.

Re:Dollars?

[mjwx]

Is this USD or AUD?

Try a link to the Kogan web site
http://www.kogan.com.au

You tell me.

The page seems to be a US page

Strange, I didnt notice that Australian PC magazine was a US site.

Also I'm having a bit of trouble finding this address in the US:
APC Magazine Street address:
Level 18, 66 Goulburn St,
Sydney, NSW 2000

And certainly never mind that the first two lines of the article clearly mentioned Australia:

Australian-based tech importer Kogan has revealed the first Google Android-based phone that will ship in Australia

So reading a review from an Australian magazine, about an Austalian company, importing phones into Australia I think it's fairly safe to assume that the price is in Australian dollars.

Linux iPhone hack is an interesting alternative

[jbeach]

http://forum.insanelymac.com/index.php?s=64f3739b65d34dc1e9ed83f26151baac&showtopic=138694 That said, I'm still having trouble getting OSX86 to work on my Intel box, so hackeat emptor. I don't know how to write my own sound drivers for my PC Intel motherboard, so that's hangup there...

No product design is ever finished

[EmbeddedJanitor]

You clearly have not been a part of many hardware development exercises.

Thinking that product follows a design it then ship it model is as broken as thinking the same for software.

It is very common for hardware designs to be modified during their lifetime. Frequently the first shipped product will have some hand modified parts to the circuit which will get fixed in a subsequent design. Frequently designs get modified to use cheaper components etc.

iPhone User Tries One Out

[immcintosh]

Having had the iPhone since early first generation, I recently decided to try out the G1, and I have been very pleasantly surprised. Feature-wise it's pretty much on par with the iPhone, but I've found the UI to (surprisingly enough) be more user-friendly and substantially more responsive (opening the contact list on the iPhone takes forever, for example). The web browser is a lot easier to use anywhere you need to deal with forms, too.

After the major issues I've had with the iPhone (dropped calls, completely missed calls that never ever register on the phone, random total system crashes, etc...), I would honestly recommend Android over it for anybody who doesn't have an obsessive Apple fetish. So far it just seems to work more smoothly and reliably. It being much more open is icing on the cake, and conveys some very obvious advantages, like how developers are encouraged to make drop-in replacements for its built-in components (like a new email program), whereas Apple apparently forbids the same practice on the iPhone.

Overall, I'm definitely gonna be sticking with my Android phone, but thankfully first gen iPhones still resell for a decent price :) It's good to see more models coming out--hopefully it'll really start catching on.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[bberens]

I see the problem a little differently. Right now EVERY SINGLE rate plan is priced so that the carrier can subsidize the price of the phone. If I go to a carrier they will give me a free phone or at the very least dramatically reduce the price of the phone if I sign a contract for 2 years. In my imaginary example let's say I get a contract + phone for $50/mo for 2 years. Now if I go to that same carrier and say I ALREADY have a phone I would like to use, what is the cost of service? They will respond: Well, we have this $50/mo plan for you. In the current market I'm paying for the 'subsidized' phone whether I get the phone or not, which is ridiculous. The only way to NOT have to do this is to get a pay as you go plan, which is annoying because I don't want to have to keep buying cards/minutes. I just want to pay $40/mo for the same plan I could get for $50/mo + phone. Until the phone is no longer subsidized by the rate plans, I don't think we'll every be free of this ridiculous system.

One thing remains in the way

[StarKruzr]

Software locks in the form of chroot jails and forbidding root on your own device, such as those that Android phones and the iPhone line have.

If this obstruction is removed, my (jailbroken) iPhone will be on eBay faster than you can say "screw you, Steve Jobs."

verizon? or something else?

[myfigurefemale]

so the only US carrier this will work with is Verizon? Or do I have that reversed? Thanks!

Suprise?

[Slash.Poop]

It looks like a surprisingly nice form factor

Why is it surpiseing? Is Apple the only company that makes pretty products?

Re:Suprise?

[Yosho]

Why is it surpiseing? Is Apple the only company that makes pretty products?

No, it's surprising because most cell phone designs are crappy.

At least, I presume that's why the submitter thinks it's surprisingly nice. I took a look at it and it looks more or less like every other crappy phone design to me. But, to be honest, I hate phones that have half of their face taken up by a tiny keyboard.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[Anonymous Coward]

The wireless carriers dictate to the device manufacturers which features are allowed.
Slightly off-topic, but I recently considered the fact that for some reason, there is no rush to deliver helpful services on the PSTN handset. Why can't my home phone do call screening if I have caller ID? This seems like an inexpensive feature to implement that would have give a good competitive advantage.

Ask Slashdot

[End Program]

I have not done the research, but can I assume Google will be tracking my every move on any phone that has the Android OS?

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[xda]

MetroPCS, Cricket... If you don't mind the limited coverage area. They make you buy the flimsy phones at full price, but their rates are very low. Best thing is NO CONTRACT! I hope that these types of providers will grow quickly and make AT&T/Verizon change their practices.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[bigstrat2003]

Out of curiosity, what's the difference between paying $40 to the phone company every month for your normal plan, or paying for more minutes every month? I fail to see how it's any different.

I hope to God you're right.

[StarKruzr]

I don't see how they can do it, honestly. How do you sell a device like this with no contract subsidy for $900?

Re:I hope to God you're right.

[argent]

Where do you get that price from?

The phones will be sold without a contract at low prices -- $A299 ($US192).

Re:I hope to God you're right.

[ozmanjusri]

How do you sell a device like this with no contract subsidy for $900?

There's an interesting backstory to that low price (AU$299/$399, btw).

Kogan is an Australian online retailer. They started when Kogan got pissed off with always being ripped off on local pricing and decided to go direct to Chinese manufacturers.

Eighteen months ago young tech-head Ruslan Kogan wanted an LCD television but didn't want to pay full price for it.

He did some research and sent a few emails to factories in China, and now the 24-year-old not only has a new 117cm high-definition TV in his lounge room, he is planning to go global with his own brand of consumer electronics.

http://www.smh.com.au/news/biztech/entrepreneur-cuts-tv-middle-men/2007/03/26/1174761375485.html

That story is a little over a year old; now there's a lot more products in his store and he's taking on the big electronic retailers over here. http://www.kogan.com.au/profile/

Re:I hope to God you're right.

[lwsimon]

Hmm.

That's cool as hell. This is what it takes to be a nerd - not technical knowledge, not glasses, not an odd aroma - the motivation and desire to go out and do it yourself.

Re:I hope to God you're right.

[Hadlock]

I'm seeing this happening in the commercial furniture industry as well. Importers/warehouses/middlemen are thinning out as online retailers start buying things directly from the manufacturer and warehousing it locally without a brick and mortar solution. This is different from how things worked in the past, where you would buy products from a brand who had them designed, advertised and manufactured for you. Instead of top down retailing like apple you're going to see more bottom up online retailing as international manufacturing capacity increasingly becomes more sophisticated.with the advent of online retailing the riskiest part of retail has been removed and there's essentially no operating cost anymore.

Re: yes 3G

[PotPieMan]

True. However, according to the full specifications, the phone does not support the frequency band used by T-Mobile USA for HSDPA.

Another week...

[hort_wort]

another android phone headline. Seriously, are they sponsoring this website? Why can't we hear about androids like Gigilo Jane? You know, she recently got #34 in "Top 50 Hottest Sci-fi Girls" by UGO.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[MrNemesis]

Dunno if mine is the exception that (dis)proves the rule or whatever, but I've had the same contract with Vodafone in the UK for just under 10 years, and I've been buying my own phones since 2001/2002. Every 12 months I get a phone call from Vodafone telling me my contract is up for renewal and would I like to upgrade my phone, every time I say no. They always (unfailingly always) offer me more and more ludicrous deals in order to keep my custom - in the form of cuts in the monthly tariff, extra free minutes, free minutes now usable in business hours, free minutes now usable across all networks, free minutes now usable in Europe off-peak, £75 rebate, no tariff for 6 months... and it's not even like I make alot of calls, and I find it impossible to go over my rolling 1000 free texts.

Anyone out there acquainted with the mobile telco industry able to inform us exactly how much of your average monthly bill is allocated to subsidising the "Oooh, Shiny!" people who get a new phone every 6-12 months?

Seriously, judging by what my friends pay for similar tariffs, I've saved myself an utter packet by buying sensible phones for ~£300 every few years rather than the flash-du-jour that most people end up with. Not trying to sound like a smug elitist prick, this originally started out as me thinking throwing away perfectly functional tech for the sake of a shinier thing distasteful, until I found out how much leverage it gave me with my contract.

Re:verizon? or something else?

[SaDan]

UMTS/HSDPA (850, 1900, 2100 MHz)
GSM/EDGE (850, 900, 1800, 1900 MHz)

GSM based, so most certainly NOT Verizon, Sprint, or US Cellular.

Free country?!

[Anonymous Coward]

Free country?! Free as in beer?

Where do I find it? I want to reserve the oil rights.

note the increased processor speed

[DragonTHC]

up to 624MHz from 528MHz. Seems like a useful jump.

Camera-less?

[Anonymous Coward]

Will anyone be releasing an android phone with no camera? It's getting harder and harder to find decent phones without all the extra crap that I don't need. I'd love to support google on this but I'm looking for a "less is more" concept, not an "everything in one" device.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[bkr1_2k]

Not needing more minutes, first of all. Paying for a subsidized phone you don't want to use is just paying "extra". The service providers know this, so should you.

It's the same reason text messages, which take up less bandwidth, cost more than phone calls do. It's a "feature" for you whether you use it or not, so you get charged at ridiculous rates for "convenience" while the service providers make a fortune.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[bigstrat2003]

Huh? I didn't say that it doesn't make sense to not want to subsidize a phone with your plan. That makes perfect sense. I'm saying, assuming you only pay for your phone plan for sake of argument, you pay your $40 worth of phone bill to the provider every month. What difference does it make if you're paying for some plan, or paying for minutes in advance?

Shame about screen resolution

[zuperduperman]

I'm a junkie for a hi res screen, I don't think I can take a step back from the beautiful ipod at 480x320. Not to mention that many many web sites are going to be optimized for this slightly higher res so I think 320 x 240 just isn't going to cut it.

The other main criterion that I am waiting for before I splurge on an "all-in-one" device is stereo bluetooth. So many phones support bluetooth but not the A2DP profile (if I understand right, Android itself doesn't support A2DP at all). Why is this so hard to do?

Re:Link to the manufacturer - Expensive shipping

[Anonymous Coward]

They are selling them at $299 on their website

$399 with Camera and GPS .
  I hope the prices are in Australian dollars, that would make it a pretty good buy

Just looking at their web site, they're charging $60 AUD for international shipping, which seems like a lot for just a phone!

Also international sales should not be charged GST (Australian VAT or sales tax) so they should take 9.09% of the main item's price, or about $23.00 USD at current rates.

Open them up!

[lord_sarpedon]

I love my G1. I thankfully got one that shipped with the earlier mega-bugged software revision and have held on to root access.

Only certain people are trying to lock you out. Set a few build parameters, extract a few blobs from the handset, and you suddenly have a Dream-compatible Android build. For those that have root, modified recovery partitions are readily available which allow you to flash your own modified update packages. However, I compiled my own with a few changes - I don't like the idea of everyone having the private key (the test keys) that are trusted by my phone.

We don't want an arms race of phone lock down here. People need to quit bitching about code signing - it's a _good_ thing. People _want_ their updates to be signed by t-mobile as opposed to provided with a wink by...whoever is running the wifi network / tower they're using...

There should be a low level means to reflash these things over USB. Recovery partition and app still needed - the update packages contain scripts and deltas and all sorts. I want a well-defined means to throw an image at the device and in the process change the allowed keys to something other than the carrier.

Yes, that's a phone specific, non android thing. But don't be surprised if it's there anyway. It's not terribly uncommon to manufacture a device with (mostly) blank chips and flash them through some interface on the device, external or otherwise. It's cheaper. Easier to roll out new revisions. Etc.

Methinks some work should be done ripping apart the proprietary bootloaders as these things roll out. It's probably the best way to safe root access on (some) devices.

Re:Open them up!

[lord_sarpedon]

I say it and it is so.

HTC bootloader was dumped just the other day. Imagine that. I expect interesting news in the near future.
http://forum.xda-developers.com/showthread.php?t=454665

Re:ok, some 3G (AT&T but not TMobile)

[Em Ellel]

True. However, according to the full specifications, the phone does not support the frequency band used by T-Mobile USA for HSDPA.

But unlike G1, it does support AT&T G3 frequency :-D. If you are on TMobile, can't see why you would not get G1 in the first place.

-Em

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[mrchaotica]

Pay-as-you-go tends to have higher per-minute costs than monthly plans.

Re:ok, some 3G (AT&T but not TMobile)

[mjwx]

But unlike G1, it does support AT&T G3 frequency

The phone was designed to work in Australia not the US with Kogan being an Australian company. it uses the HSDPA and UTMS standards which are in use in Australia and much of Europe and Asia.

can't see why you would not get G1 in the first place.

Because the G1 isn't available in Australia or any other part of the world.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[Miseph]

Presumably it could be used on another GSM network with a different SIM card. Here in the states, AT&T/Cingular is one such network, and as I understand there are no carriers outside of here, Japan and parts of Australia that use anything else (ie. CDMA).

Here's how it looks compared to the T-Mobile G1

[slick sorter]

Interesting comparison of the new Android phone here, compared with T-Mobile G1 and Blackberry Bold: http://www.pcauthority.com.au/Review/130280,kogan-agora--a-simpler-practical-google-phone.aspx In a nutshell, it's a Blackberry, but with Android.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[pablodiazgutierrez]

If you have a good phone and don't need an upgrade, you might want to keep it and save the $10 per month. I know I would.

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[Anonymous Coward]

I just want to pay $40/mo for the same plan I could get for $50/mo + phone.

The plan difference is 10 dollars which over 2 years is 240 dollars. That is the cost of the phone right there. What did you expect?

WIMAX

[lasse_2]

Will that run on Wimax?

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[MathiasTCK]

Not anymore!

http://android-developers.blogspot.com/2008/12/new-resources-for-developers.html

"
Second, many of you have asked if developer devices will be available. We've worked with our partners to create a program for developers to purchase devices that enable them to test and debug applications more easily.
"

Out of the box you got something that looks like the G1, but is not locked to any carrier.

Better yet, after you get yourself a $400 unlocked Android phone, you can get Android source, and put your own version on your device. Perhaps you will give yourself root access. Perhaps you'll figure out the right way to run native code on the device...

Re:HTC Touch Dream

[VagaStorm]

Thanx :) My country is yet not on the list, but several comparable countries where, so that page is now on my constant watch list :)