Nintendo's Miyamoto On Innovation, Wii Ambitions

Edge Magazine is running an interview with Nintendo game designer Shigeru Miyamoto about some of the company's recent projects, such as Wii Music and Wii Fit. Miyamoto talks about his ambitions for the titles, as well as the difficulty in continuing to entertain players by surprising them. He refers to Wii Music as "music software" rather than a game, and says the primary intent was to bring music to families and assist in music education. The conversation then turns to where Nintendo can go in the future; Miyamoto discusses integrating new technologies into popular game franchises, and the dilemma Nintendo will face when designing its next console — do they stick with updated versions of their innovative controllers, do they return to a more standard build, or do they bring a completely different input device to the table?

Comments

Wii Music, Huh?

[eldavojohn]

In regards to Wii Music he said:

I really don't know who are actually going to purchase the game, but I hope that schoolchildren will play.

I couldn't agree more. For those of you thinking that this will offer high quality tracks from all eras of music, guess again.

I could go into a lengthy diatribe about the shortages of Wii Music but instead, I'll referrence IGN that pointed out the biggest deficiency:

Before we even get to the gameplay breakdown, though, take a second and think about what you might value in a game dedicated to music. I imagine a robust roster of popular, classic and contemporary songs tops the list for obvious reasons. What about an assurance that the songs included will be presented in the highest audio quality possible? I mean, people went nuts when they found out that the musical tracks in the Wii version of Guitar Hero were outputted in mono, and with good reason: we expect a certain caliber of presentation from today's software. Unfortunately, with Wii Music Nintendo has demonstrated that it doesn't care to satisfy expectations. Not only are most of the 50-plus tracks lifted from the public domain -- such timeless hits as Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, O Christmas Tree, My Grandfather's Clock and Bridal Chorus -- but they are also rendered in archaic, amateur MIDI. I've heard some good MIDI renditions in my day and let me tell you, you won't find any of them in Wii Music. It is a good thing that Beethoven is long dead because he would not ever wish to hear the game's lifeless version of Ode to Joy.

Seriously, Ode to Joy done in MIDI? Are you trying to scare your children away from Beethoven?

They gave this game a 5.0 out of 10.0 and I think that's a tad generous. This game is seriously only for the very young. Great for that and introduction to music but no more.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[AdmiralXyz]

Even that's a little generous. To me, Wii Music sounded like the kind of sounds produced in Hollywood movies when a bunch of mentally challenged children try to form a band. Wii Sports and Play were good titles that cleverly used the remote controller but Music just dropped the ball. Still, the interview is fascinating (you want to RTFA this time), and I can't wait to see what Miyamoto comes up with next. Wii Music aside, he's easily one of if not the most talented name in video game design.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[omega_dk]

How would they do it other than MIDI? Don't forget they have 50 instruments in addition to the 50 songs. Frankly, the music can sound great if you put some time into making it; see http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-KrPgcUcKyU or http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QeJiVMlbwao for reference.

Frankly, comparing it to a game where the choice is (Play Guitar Track) or (Don't play guitar track) seems silly. This is much more a game that is trying to get you to think about composing music, and seeing the ways different sounds work when combined. It has an entirely different reason for existing than a symphony orchestra playing Beethoven.

Much like I would never compare Wii Fit to running a mile every day, I wouldn't compare Wii Music (or any other rhythm game) to playing music; think of them as a way to expand your thinking, and to perhaps add more breadth to the things you care about. It's sharpening the saw in game form, basically.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[infrequent]

Well, it seems like you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

I could "go into a lengthy diatribe about" the many brilliant ideas in Wii Music, but instead, I'll respond to your vaguely sketched out MIDI criticism, borrowed by none other than the IGN reviewer who stated far in advance of the game's release that he was dying to tear it apart, and who also posts those rather juvenile rants about how Nintendo doesn't make enough Zelda games, etc.

This will, however, require some quick digression into the question of the point of this game. This isn't a game with pre-recorded tracks that you simply try to play through in glorified Simon-Says style, as in Rock Band styled games. Instead, the entire objective of this game is to take a familiar tune and rearrange it into something new, or take it into a musical domain far removed from its original settings.

For the uninitiated, here's a very quick rundown of what you do:

1. Pick a song from the list
2. Pick an instrument to play, and a role for that instrument. This is crucial; if you pick, say, a cello, and assign it the role of "harmony", the notes available to you as you play through the song will be chosen in a roughly contrapuntal relation to the main melody. If you choose the role of "chord", the cello will be able to play chords following the basic harmonic progression of the song. Or assign it to "bass", and so on.
3. Play through the song using the chosen instrument in the chosen role. Here's the interesting part -- while the specific notes played will be drawn from the combination of instrument and role, you can play the instrument however you'd like, holding out notes for suspensions, syncopating the rhythm, adding fills and sectional variations, etc. Each instrument also has various advanced controls, allowing you, for instance, to double pick, mute the strings, or bend notes on the guitar. Of utmost importance to the quality of your performance, however, will certainly be your restraint and control of dynamics -- here Wii Music's controls truly shine, picking up movements from the slightest tap on the piano's keys to a resounding chord.
4. Now restraint and style becomes even more important: you continue to perform instruments in chosen roles until you fill all six parts of the song, overdubbing with your previous parts to create your own rendition of the song.

The possibilities are endless, and here's why, at last, something like MIDI is necessary for this game: you can't use prerecorded parts like other rhythm games, and you need to allow the user to do anything with the notes played, with dynamics, bending, and other touches depending on the instrument.

Perhaps they could have used even better MIDI voices, but the actually sound very good if used properly in a creative arrangement. Here are three very different videos, from three different authors, created with Wii Music: surely there is no mistaking the MIDI roots if you listen closely, but overall the sound is amazingly good for a game that is so open-ended.

Frere Jacques Every Breath You Take Sukiyaki

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

In response to this though. As a parent, to see my not-quite-2 year old shaking her controllers playing the piano was worth the price of the game just for that 30 seconds of pure joy she got :)

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Epistax]

... by having a recorded music track AND midi for every instrument, so anything someone is playing goes along with the midi and anything being left to the game is played by recording? Or would that sound too crappy?

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[feepness]

It amazes me to see people rabidly defending the Wii after all this time.

For a year all we ever heard about the PS3 was "Where are the games?" Well, they're here... for the PS3.

As for the Wii?

Where are the games?

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Here, just like for the PS3.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

In regards to Wii Music he said:

I really don't know who are actually going to purchase the game, but I hope that schoolchildren will play.

I couldn't agree more. For those of you thinking that this will offer high quality tracks from all eras of music, guess again.

I could go into a lengthy diatribe about the shortages of Wii Music but instead, I'll referrence IGN that pointed out the biggest deficiency:

Before we even get to the gameplay breakdown, though, take a second and think about what you might value in a game dedicated to music. I imagine a robust roster of popular, classic and contemporary songs tops the list for obvious reasons. What about an assurance that the songs included will be presented in the highest audio quality possible? I mean, people went nuts when they found out that the musical tracks in the Wii version of Guitar Hero were outputted in mono, and with good reason: we expect a certain caliber of presentation from today's software. Unfortunately, with Wii Music Nintendo has demonstrated that it doesn't care to satisfy expectations. Not only are most of the 50-plus tracks lifted from the public domain -- such timeless hits as Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star, O Christmas Tree, My Grandfather's Clock and Bridal Chorus -- but they are also rendered in archaic, amateur MIDI. I've heard some good MIDI renditions in my day and let me tell you, you won't find any of them in Wii Music. It is a good thing that Beethoven is long dead because he would not ever wish to hear the game's lifeless version of Ode to Joy.

Seriously, Ode to Joy done in MIDI? Are you trying to scare your children away from Beethoven?

They gave this game a 5.0 out of 10.0 and I think that's a tad generous. This game is seriously only for the very young. Great for that and introduction to music but no more.

This website is informative, visitors will surely be benefited, Its our pleasure to read informative content on this useful website.
We have also described about examinations, Praxis Study, Praxis II test in our website www.teachingsolutions.org

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[SBFCOblivion]

It is a good thing that Beethoven is long dead because he would not ever wish to hear the game's lifeless version of Ode to Joy.

Hmm...something tells me that were he still alive this wouldn't be a problem.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Go suck on sony's dong and get a rootkit infection, k.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

the MIDI roots if you listen closely

Yes, and you can see the TCP/IP roots of this message if you look closely ;)

The music that sounds like "MIDI" is probably a poor quality synthesizer or the samples/wavetables they're using as sound sources. MIDI is a serial control protocol. Maybe you were thinking of General MIDI, which does tend to sound like shit.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Omestes]

Eh, the games are in the Wii. Between virtual arcade, their Xbox Arcade clone, and actual releases, their doing rather well. Granted I am a bit miffed about the lack of 3rd party releases, but still there is plenty to do. The lack of 3rd party released is largely based on the idiocy of developers refusing to offer solid products to the Wii, as much as it is Nintendo's fault for making a system with sub-par graphics (the only thing that matters to young gamers).

I'm not, btw, crying for the lack of stealth shooters based in WWII (or not, to a lesser but still significant degree), which seems to be all that the gaming industry has been able to produce for the last 5 years.

Stop being a fan boy, all the systems have major faults right now, both hardware wise, and in terms of diversity of releases. Out of the 9,000 PS3 games, there might be 5 I'd want to play (of those 4 have PC versions which will be better). The 360 has mortality issues, and has the same game problem as the PS3 (I hate racing and stealth shooters which are the only things out there). The Wii is a graphical weakling, and only has Nintendo releases (though they are largely quality).

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Wheely]

Though I know next to nothing about Wii Music, I do know that this reviewer isn't very good.

The bizarre statement "archaic, amateur MIDI" is only slightly less weird than the concept of deriding an "Ode to Joy done in MIDI".

I take it you, and this reviewer do not know what MIDI is. MIDI is only a protocol for describing musical events. It has no sound of its own.

All professional recording studios make extensive use of MIDI for driving sampled or modeled instruments or for syncing and for hardware controllers (e.g. those exciting desks full of sliders and knobs).

I guarantee you that most of the music you listen to, even live stage music, is driven by MIDI.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[LordVader717]

It is a good thing that Beethoven is long dead because he would not ever wish to hear the game's lifeless version of Ode to Joy.

What a douchebag.
Beethoven would be thrilled to be able to hear it all, as he was practically deaf when he finished his ninth.
And sure, he wouldn't be amazed by MIDI sequencing and the possibilities it gives to composers, but would be dissapointed that he could (or probably couldn't!) tell the diffference between a real piano performance and a sequenced track.

Whenever you see a reviewer bashing "MIDI" it shows you that they have absoutely no clue. "Amateur" and "archaic"? What a retard!
The fidelity depends purely on the quality of the synthesizer. If it was MIDI that made it sound bad, then 95% of all game soundtracks would sound bad.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[LordVader717]

General MIDI too, is just a list of instruments. How the sound is sythesized is another matter.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

What's wrong with MIDI ?
Most of the songs you know from the 80's, 90's and a bit of now are made with MIDI.

It's just the horrible synthesis they use which makes it unbearable.
It probably does have something to do with Wii CPU and memory limitations.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[jimicus]

How would they do it other than MIDI? Don't forget they have 50 instruments in addition to the 50 songs.

Well, the obvious solution that I can think of would be something like a tracker MOD file. (see also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trackers)

For some reason these never really caught on on the PC but they were commonly used for game soundtracks in the early 1990's on many other platforms because while they store the notes and tempo (like a MIDI file), they can also store samples, guaranteeing what the track will sound like regardless of what system's playing it.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[AlXtreme]

The possibilities are endless, and here's why, at last, something like MIDI is necessary for this game: you can't use prerecorded parts like other rhythm games, and you need to allow the user to do anything with the notes played, with dynamics, bending, and other touches depending on the instrument.

Having fooled around with Wii Music for a bit myself, I concur that using MIDI was the only choice possible for a game like this.

However, this is no excuse for the poor choice of tracks. I understand that Nintendo wasn't going to shell out megabucks to license a hundred popular songs, but they did hype up Wii Music quite a bit so you have to be able to show something. Like the IGN reviewer, the only track I actually enjoyed was the F-Zero one.

I understand throwing in a few public domain scores to keep costs down, but if you're being cheap on the music (the main selling point of the game for most), don't be surprised if the game falls flat for many. This coupled with the fact that you can't make your own original tracks but only replay existing ones, Wii Music has been a let-down for me.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

When will people learn to understand that MIDI is simply a format that defines when notes need to be played. It has no concept of storing actual sound data, that is managed by your MIDI Synthesizer.

I have some high quality samples of the UK Philharmonia Orchestra that I run in my sampler. I use MIDI to play them.

MIDI defines the content, not the sound.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

The possibilities are endless, and here's why, at last, something like MIDI is necessary for this game: you can't use prerecorded parts like other rhythm games, and you need to allow the user to do anything with the notes played, with dynamics, bending, and other touches depending on the instrument.

Perhaps they could have used even better MIDI voices, but the actually sound very good if used properly in a creative arrangement. Here are three very different videos, from three different authors, created with Wii Music: surely there is no mistaking the MIDI roots if you listen closely, but overall the sound is amazingly good for a game that is so open-ended.

I never understood why the MOD format never took off for this sort of thing. MODs sound *way* better than MIDIs and are programmable just like MIDIs.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[gEvil (beta)]

Your post is ill-informed and simple-minded. Must be because you used ASCII characters. Seriously, a slashdot post in ASCII?

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Seriously, Ode to Joy done in MIDI? Are you trying to scare your children away from Beethoven?

Just FYI, MIDI can sound GREAT. Many professional musicians use it.

Since MIDI file just holds the notes, temp, etc of the music, the quality of the sound will depend on the hardware that it's being played on.
The same 100kb file that will sound like a shitty ringtone in bad hardware can really sound like a freaking live human orchestra in the right hardware (ie, a pro sound card, good instrument libraries and good speakers).

There are instrument libraries that cost literally thousands of dollars.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[poot_rootbeer]

Seriously, Ode to Joy done in MIDI? Are you trying to scare your children away from Beethoven?

"MIDI" is a protocol for defining musical events and there is no correlation between its use and audio fidelity.

You can buy a MIDI keyboard at a professional music gear shop for $4,000, or you can buy a MIDI keyboard at Walmart for $99. As you can imagine, the difference in sound quality between these two models will be profound -- but they're both still MIDI.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Your attitude shows pretty much everything wrong with the so-called "hardcore market" today, and why, for the health of gaming as a hobby, the hardcore's dominance needs to be crushed. Time to go back to the fringe where you belong.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Wheely]

Seriously, Ode to Joy done in MIDI? Are you trying to scare your children away from Beethoven?

"MIDI" is a protocol for defining musical events and there is no correlation between its use and audio fidelity.

You can buy a MIDI keyboard at a professional music gear shop for $4,000, or you can buy a MIDI keyboard at Walmart for $99. As you can imagine, the difference in sound quality between these two models will be profound -- but they're both still MIDI.

They will sound exactly the same i.e. neither of them will make a sound at all. What they might do is drive their own internal synthesizer which will be better or worse quality depending on price but many professional keyboards don`t do this.

A good modern MIDI keyboard will be completely incapable of making a sound. Mine can`t. When you pay a lot of money for a midi keyboard you are paying for the weight and responsiveness of the keys, the number of sliders and knobs it has to send additional MIDI events and the quality of the parts. You might also be paying for the name of course.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

I actually do not believe that the song selection has anything to do with saving money. Instead, the game developers have chosen a list of familiar tunes ranging from folk melodies to classical pieces, with just a few pop songs and Nintendo themes thrown in, in order to emphasize and encourage the process of rearranging something familiar in order to put a new spin on it.

Note that the game doesn't even show you any musical score by default (and, if enabled, the score will only show you the main melody's notes, no suggestion for how you might play the accompaniment). This means that the tunes need to be instantly familiar -- and familiar worldwide, I might add. Remember why the somewhat comical name "Wii" was chosen in the first place: to have a name that will be pronounced the same everywhere. This game has no localization, ie., everyone gets the same tracklist regardless of region.

Hence, the familiar folk tunes, some from other parts of the world, the well-known classical pieces, and the choice of only pop songs (Material Girl, for instance) that are likely to be very recognizable even in regions where very few of our Top 40 Hits filter in.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[fbjon]

There are many technical differences, but the only practical difference between a mod file and a midi file is that the mod file usually includes the samples used. A midi file uses whatever compatible sound source you have available, so if you have a really good synth, you'll get good music, but if you're just using the default built-in crap in Windows, you'll naturally get crap. It doesn't make any sense to say one "sounds better" than the other, since they have no inherent sound quality as such.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Anonymous Coward]

Barf

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[KDR_11k]

I think people just want the MIDI system to use better samples so the play actually sounds like a live performance (which is something you'd expect about a game were you, well, perform live). Not a problem with MIDI itself, just the data that's being fed into it.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[poot_rootbeer]

We seem to differ in our use of terminology. When you say "MIDI keyboard", you mean "MIDI keyboard controller only" -- a device that simply converts key presses, knob twiddles, etc. into a stream of MIDI messages. When I say it, I mean a device which does that, but also incorporates hardware that can convert those events into audible sound. It's a category that includes synthesizers, digital pianos, arranger workstations, etc. etc...

You'd be hard-pressed to find a controller-only device at Walmart, or one that goes for $4000 and doesn't include some form of tone generator.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[KDR_11k]

Now that I think about it using licensed songs might not be possible. Remember, the game is about making cover versions of the included songs and sharing those, using something licensed might be a copyright violation for the users since they'd have to pay royalties for their cover. AFAIK the Rockband (or GH sumthing, didn't bother to remember) song creation and uploading mode explicitely prohibits covering copyrighted songs for legal reasons.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Wheely]

Well, the discussion has centered around the idea that there is such a thing as "MIDI music" which is just nonsense. Fact is MIDI doesnÂt make any noise at all.

The keyboard you are talking about is both a MIDI keyboard and a synthesizer. Nowadays most people donÂt have that synthesizer in their keyboard and if they do, they just turn it off.

I agree that the cheapest keyboard is likely to incorporate some nasty synthesizer in it. $4000 digital keyboards are very hard to come by these days at all. However, some of the most expensive ones around donÂt generate sounds though some do have synthesizers and sequencers built in. Not sure that they get used that much except for show though.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[MikeBabcock]

The music track composer in Amplitude for the PS2 is more advanced than Wii Music within its own confines, has better quality sound, and has full range samples.

Expanding that to current consoles should lead to something MUCH better than Wii Music.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[bonch]

The MIDI music on the Wii is using sound samples. Sometimes I think people misunderstand what MIDI is. It's just raw music data, and the output can be anything. I haven't heard FM synthesized MIDI in a long time.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[bonch]

You're being ridiculously semantic just to feel intellectually superior. Of course there's such a thing as "MIDI music." It refers to the music that is in MIDI format.

A CD doesn't make noise by itself either, but I doubt you're going to argue that it isn't what would be referred to a "CD of music." Well, maybe you will just to have something to argue about.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Iced_Eagle]

I think that Wii Music came out maybe too early. There are better forms of MIDI on the horizon that sound a lot better and more like instruments than they do in Wii Music. Also, what's even more scary with Wii Music, and why most people give it a bad rap is that it quite literally requires the person to be creative with their music playing. It's super easy to play instruments badly, and this very much holds true in Wii Music. However, when you can actually be creative, follow the rhythms and patterns of the song you're playing, then you can get something great out of it. Compare that to Rock Band where you don't have to be creative usually as you play what they tell you to play. What's great is that you not only feel more like you are in that band (AC/DC or whatever), but you can add your own little flavor with things like the small Drum Breaks. Personally, I'm not a fan of Wii Music. I hate being the person to say this, but when I play video games, I want to feel like I'm freaking awesome. Whether it's saving the galaxy, or being a rockstar. I don't want the game to make me realize how musically challenged I am. Thus, if I'm going to go through all of that trouble, I may as well pick up a real instrument and spend my time working on that. Yes, it's not as easy as button pressing, but you'll get the same effect out of it. I think that feeling of "I want to go get an instrument!" is what Wii Music is also trying to invoke, to get people interested in music. Thus, if the goal is to get people at least interested, then Wii Music has already succeeded.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[Wheely]

I`m not being "ridiculously semantic". I used the term "MIDI music" when pointing out the error in the original comment because that was the term previous posters used. Having said that, nobody refers to MIDI music they only refer to MIDI files and that`s for a reason.

A CD has the finished music encoded digitally. The actual sound you hear is affected to some extent by the post-processing that your player does but is really pretty minimal.

"MIDI music" is a collection of numbers. If you "play" it all it does is say to the "playing" equipment e.g. "select instrument number 58 and play a c# for this long and at this volume". It doesn`t even tell you what instrument number 58 is. You choose what instrument is at number 58 so you can make Ode to Joy come out on a piano or a drum kit.

There is a "standard" set of instruments which isn`t very standard that most people don`t use that defines e.g. a classic piano as instrument number 1. It is called General MIDI but there is so much it doesn`t define and it also only has a limited number of instruments so it is impossible for professional musicians to stick to.

The actual sound you hear when using a MIDI file is completely controlled by some other system for synthesizing noise. If you have a crappy synth module you`ll get sound like a kids toy. If you have a high quality synth or, more likely, set of instrument samples you`ll get sound indistinguishable from the real instrument.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[xouumalperxe]

The MIDI music on the Wii is using sound samples. Sometimes I think people misunderstand what MIDI is. It's just raw music data, and the output can be anything. I haven't heard FM synthesized MIDI in a long time.

In particular, the whole "MOD sounds better because you have control over the samples used" argument crumbles when you're providing your own MIDI implementation/sound banks.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[pizzach]

I'm coming back and replying to an old article. But if there is a chance you see this, omega_dk, it was worth it. Thanks to you, I figured out I could look on youtube to figure out exactly what is possible with Wii Music.

The most interesting thing was that it's entirely possible to do a horrible job playing. In other words, some skill is actually involved. It's also possible to do something very interesting and original, like an acapella Mario Brothers theme.

Re:Wii Music, Huh?

[omega_dk]

I do like the A Capella Mario Bros one. Really well-done. Like I said above, there can be good ones and horrible ones. It's all about playing around. That said, it's also not really for me. My musical talent begins and ends with the kazoo...

Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[tyrantking31]

Shouldn't you be working on the next Zelda title? Wii = Epic Fail

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Come back and tell them that again after it stops being the top-selling console, please.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Wii = Epic Fail

Which is why it regularly outsells the 360 and PS3 combined.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[scubamage]

This is flame bait. And I'll bite.

What complete innovation to game and system input have you designed and mass marketed? What industries have you revolutionized? What pop culture icons have you invented and embedded into the hearts of minds of people worldwide?

Oh, guess you were too busy posting halfwitted posts on the internet to do anything even remotely important.

You, sir, are the epic failure.

Good day.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[madpuppy]

It may be a/the top selling console but, seeing that only people who don't play games are buying them. (eg: old people, parents of very young children, care givers for people with downs and aspergers syndrome.)
People who play games on the other hand know that the Wii is a scam and a waste of money. personally, I LIKE good graphics and a complex storyline, I LIKE to play dvd's and blu-ray discs on my console. I like having the ability to download games and demo's to an internal hard drive. I like using my console as a media server.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

No, im not the troll that started this but here goes...

Wii succeeded in filling the market niche of "that toy that people get for their kids/significant others/parents to shut them up for a little bit"... the Wii remote is a gimmick to get people playing games with gestures instead of thumbs since people who aren't good at their thumbs aren't good with the PS3 or 360. What is terribly innovative about a remote that knows when you've swung it vigorously in the direction of the TV? If there were any accuracy at all in the Wiimote maybe I wouldn't be so pissed about spending like 400 bucks on wii crap games only to realize that the skill required is about equivalent to playig "ball-in-a-cup". Not bitter, i'm not bitter... sigh.

After playing my fair share of games on all the consoles, the Wii strikes me, without a doubt, as the least sophisticated and least satisfying for the bulk of electronic game players.

BUT! Oh, I forgot, it appeals to masses of little girls and old people, good job, you get a gold star. What's next from nintendo? A robotic pony with tennis balls for feet so great grandma can push it around the nursing home.

Anonymous here i come! hell hath no fury like slashdot blindly lusting for the wii...

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[madpuppy]

I get called a troll for saying what is fact? I guess if you have no defense to what I'm saying all you can do is get angry and call me a troll.

blah...cowards

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[madpuppy]

you have hit the nail right on the head, I have one of these dust collectors floating around the house somewhere. thank god I didn't spend my money on it. I also own a PS3 and 360 and love them both. great games excellent controllers great graphics and complex stories with great high quality surround sound.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

What pop culture icons have you invented and embedded into the hearts of minds of people worldwide?

Joe, the plumber. Wait! The other. Mario?

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

personally, I LIKE good graphics and a complex storyline, I LIKE to play dvd's and blu-ray discs on my console. I like having the ability to download games and demo's to an internal hard drive. I like using my console as a media server.

So do I. I also LIKE my Wii.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[stonedcat]

[Insert obligatory and clever "you must be new" joke here.]

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[aliquis]

Though by that logic Vista wouldn't be epic fail vs all other oses? =P

Not saying you're wrong however. But imho Wii is too expensive compared to the really cheap 360.

(And no, no-one need to post anything about adding this and that or whatever, it's still a game capable machine.)

Not saying 360 is the best console though :D

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[aliquis]

That was great, I owe you a blowjob.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

If it is fact, then surely you can provide a reputable and verifiable source for everything you said. But it's not fact, it's your opinion and your flawed observations presented in a juvenile manner so as to get a rise out of people who disagree.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[madpuppy]

This coming from a anon,(but, I still do appreciate you actually answering even if it is anonymously.) so your saying that The Wii is not used by old people and children and that it is a system that is on par with the 360 and PS3? that the Wii does play DVD's? or that you can use it as a media server?

here is something that I posted a while back, and if the big "N" can rake in the cash doing this fine. but, don't presume because casual gamers are buying the Wii that it is somehow superior to the other 2 consoles.

"In a sense, a company selling their console at a loss is good for the buyer, that means that the games have to be compelling enough to sell, because that is where the profit will be coming from. with the Wii, (a console that is very limited and its only claim to fame is it's unique controller) the big "N" makes a profit on every unit sold, the games cannot even be considered secondary, the selling of more nintendo brand "gadgets" and "doodads" meant to make the Wii work like it should have in the first place takes second slot in the Priority list apparently. so, essentially, Nintendo just t-bagged all of its fans and customers with The Wii. that is why most games on the Wii are shovelware. and every once in a while Nintendo throws a bone out by updating an older game, changing the name slightly a parading it out to get more people to fall into its trap."

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[madpuppy]

and as for "a reputable and verifiable source for everything you said."

So, you don't watch the news, Old people and young or "special" children are the number one customers.
http://media.www.dailyvidette.com/media/storage/paper420/news/2008/02/18/News/Nintendo.Wii.Used.For.Rehabilitation.Purposes.wiihab-3215373.shtml
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2007/02/nintendos-wii-in-nursing-home.html
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,260990,00.html
http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/23/nintendos-wii-a-hit-with-the-geriatric-set/
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art58580.asp
http://www.shortnews.com/start.cfm?id=65566
http://www.specialkids.com/my_weblog/2008/09/research-shows-rehabilitation-benefits-of-using-nintendo-wii.html
http://www.nypsystem.org/press/2008/04/st-marys-at-forefront-of-thera.html
https://www.mywii.com.au/NewsDetail.aspx?id=2150

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

If the GP isn't a game designer, then he doesn't have to design games. It's not a matter of whether he can personally outdo Shigeru Miyamoto, it's whether other game designers can, which they have.

By your flawed logic, you would be unable to argue whether or not Microsoft makes fantastic operating systems unless you, personally, can create one that is better. I'm willing to bet that you can't.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[madpuppy]

just for the record, I have a Wii........its around here somewhere under about 6 inches of dust.
My 9 year old Nephew uses it to play smackdown raw or some such crap. He begs me to let him play the PS3 or 360. He calls the Wii "the Weak" Like this "come on, pleeeese let me play the PS3 I don't want to play the Weak anymore!! the Wii is essentially a gamecube with a 100 more mhz processor and a gimmicy imprecise controller scheme.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

only people who don't play games are buying them.

You didn't provide a source for this.

People who play games on the other hand know that the Wii is a scam and a waste of money.

Or this.

personally, I LIKE good graphics and a complex storyline, I LIKE to play dvd's and blu-ray discs on my console. I like having the ability to download games and demo's to an internal hard drive. I like using my console as a media server.

Good to know, not "fact".

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[gnick]

don't presume because casual gamers are buying the Wii that it is somehow superior to the other 2 consoles.

Selling the most units / making the most profit does indeed make it the best console (assuming that those statistics are accurate - I haven't checked sales nor profit per sale and just inferred them from your post). Do you really think that Sony/Microsoft are aiming at some idealistic game-platform utopia rather than just trying to make as much as they can with their consoles? They put out the product that they thought would be the most successful monetarily and are trying to compete. Nintendo found a largely untapped market and nailed it. The best console, by Nintendo's, Sony's, and Microsoft's definition, is the console that makes the most money. So, according to your accusations, yes - Nintendo made the best console, despite failing to appeal to hard-core gamers.

Nintendo just t-bagged all of its fans and customers with The Wii.

If I can expect a t-bagging with every purchase, then I will be a satisfied paying customer. If identifying its customers needs and meeting them at a price that's mutually acceptable is somehow wrong, why would any major brand want to be right?

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

This coming from a anon,(but, I still do appreciate you actually answering even if it is anonymously.)

As a response to a comment you made anonymously. Either that, or your parents were very creative.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[gnick]

Highly publicized != "number one".

Appealing to a wide range of audiences != Unenjoyable by 31337 players just looking for a good time.

Seriously dude, what's with the hate? Do you hate ice cream because "Old people and young or "special" children" enjoy it?

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

If Vista shows a profit, then it is not epic fail...

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[dougisfunny]

Sounds like you want a PC.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

frankly, it IS a fact that the Wii can NOT play dvd's, Can NOT be used as a media server., can NOT
do good graphics, barely can decode Stereo does NOT have a hard drive, is only about 100mhz faster than the gamecube. those are "facts". like the Wii controller is so imprecise that the big "N" released a doodad to fix that. but, that is what Nintendo is all about these days, selling add-ons and accessories even over selling games. And as for games, Mario 25, Zelda 18 and Smash Bros XXX, Mario kart IX?!?! talking about beating a dead horse. and those are considered "hardcore" games for the console?!?!
Platformers are fun, but, I don't want ALL my games to be platformers!!

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

complex stories on console games? I see you haven't read any decent books or seen any good movies that actually real stories in them.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, If the ice cream I bought was touted as the next big thing and when I opened the package it was made from fish guts and dead raccoons.

I own a Wii, and if I wanted a gamecube with a fancy controller I guess I would have been happy.
I is a big dissapointment, everyone I know that bought one has now moved on and got either the PS3 or the 360.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[aweraw]

PC + Wii = most every major title and genre covered

When I want "good graphics and a complex story line", I fire up the PC... it absolutely destroys the PS3, X360 and Wii for those kinds of games - sure, I have to wait a few months for the games to hit the PC, but so what? I end up paying less for the game, and get a superior experience. The only counter I've heard to that is that "I'm not patient enough to wait for titles to hit PC". I am, so that's moot for me.

On the other hand, when we have people over (usually drinking alcoholic beverages), we fire up the Wii. It's unbeatable in this environment. Never has a gaming device (that I know of) taken the social aspect so far. It's hard to express in words the awesomeness of playing drinking games with the Wii. I am neither a senior citizen or mentally deficient, and I think the Wii is fantastic... but thanks for lumping me in with those groups!

That said, there ARE "mature" games on Wii - just not as many as the PS3 or X360. Plenty of them in fact; more than enough to keep me interested in it for those kinds of games... The PC however eats them all - it's hard to deny that fact.

The PS3 and X360 are good systems, I like them my self - but one need not own either them to experience all the best games that come to market. That's why they can't get a foot up on the Wii.

So, ummm..... I think my point is that you should probably just get over it. The Wii is popular. People like it. It's making gaming a socially acceptable pastime, where it used to be the domain of the geek only. You're entitled to your opinion, but don't act all indignant when people don't agree, and offer their counter points.

</rant>

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

frankly, it IS a fact that the Wii can NOT play dvd's, Can NOT be used as a media server., can NOT
do good graphics, barely can decode Stereo does NOT have a hard drive, is only about 100mhz faster than the gamecube. those are "facts".
I didn't say they weren't.

And as for games, Mario 25, Zelda 18 and Smash Bros XXX, Mario kart IX?!?! talking about beating a dead horse. and those are considered "hardcore" games for the console?!?!
They're as hardcore as Halo 57 and Final Fantasy 376.

Platformers are fun, but, I don't want ALL my games to be platformers!!
Good thing Nintendo has only released one or two platformers for the Wii.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[cxreg]

Selling the most units / making the most profit does indeed make it the best console

And Windows is the best OS and McDonalds is the best hamburger and Titanic is the best movie

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Omestes]

As a gamer in the prime gaming demographic (25-30ish), I own a Wii, and no other console, my only other gaming device is a PC. I play around 90% of my so-called "hardcore" games on the PC, since it still is the best platform for gaming. I'd own a PS3 or a 360 if they had any releases that interested me that were exclusive to them, so far they don't. 90% of console games are stealth shooters, or racing games, which bore me. The only things that consoles have that mildly interest me are JRPGs, but generally they require too much time passively watching cinematics to be able to fit into my life (and are thus boring).

The Wii is good at parties, none of the other consoles really are, outside of the occasional fighting game. None of my friends (in their 30's) are interested in playing Halo, and neither am I. We'd rather get drunk and play Mariokart, or SSBM/B.

So, in your opinion, who the hell is a real gamer? The PC is still the best "hardcore" option, it has the best control scheme for FPSs, more genre's (how many RTSs have you seen on consoles worth playing, or MMOs?), and the most real mutli-player options.

So, excluding quality of game play, and amount sold (the Wii eats it's contenders), then what counts?

Pure graphics? The PC still wins. Story? The PC still wins (excluding games available on both it and other mediums). Controls? It goes to the PC and the Wii. What are you judging by?

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Omestes]

Anecdotal evidence = anecdotal evidence.

I have a Wii, its under no dust. Every time my friends come over they want to play it.

I don't have a 9 year old nephew, so this MIGHT be universal, but my 14 year old cousin loves it.

Your evidence has been broken. Do you really care that much? If you don't like it, good, pawn it. If you like the PS3 or 360, or Dreamcast, or Amiga better, then good. Personal taste is personal taste, live with it. If you really care about who is a "real gamer", then you obviously live a good life, since you have nothing actually important to care about.

I have fun with my Wii, if this makes me not a "gamer", who cares? I also enjoy my expensive computer for gaming, does if this makes me not a "gamer", then I still don't care. I find the PS3 and 360 not worth the extra money, if this ruins my "gamer" cred, then fine. If your the opposite me in every way, then also fine. Its a matter of taste. My liking of the Wii hurts you as much as your obviously (irrational) hatred hurts me; not in the slightest.

My question, though is; WHY THE HELL ARE YOU SO WORKED UP ABOUT CONSUMER ELECTRONICS?!

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[theheadlessrabbit]

while i do agree with that, (after the 360's price drop, it's lowest model is actually cheaper than the wii) nintendo has absolutely no reason whatsoever to lower their prices. the Wii is still frequently sold out, I've seen some stores with a 2 month waiting list.

when demand is so high, why would they lower their price?

I'd expect a wii price drop only when the xbox 360 starts to outsell the wii, and not a moment sooner.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

I own a Wii, and if I wanted a gamecube with a fancy controller I guess I would have been happy.

I suppose you should be, considering that the Wii isn't a Gamecube with a fancy controller; it's a Wii with a fancy controller.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

which they have.

I mostly agree, except for this bit right here. Yeah, dead wrong on that one.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

...Complex stories? Yeah because Halo and Gears are so deep, right?

Not like Nintendo has anything better, discounting EarthBound and MOTHER 3 because they continue to act as if the series doesn't exist.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Not like Nintendo has anything better, discounting EarthBound and MOTHER 3 because they continue to act as if the series doesn't exist.

But Nintendo does have better, even discounting the MOTHER series.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

Get a load of this guy

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[MikeBabcock]

The PC however eats them all - it's hard to deny that fact.

At a price point that's hard to swallow.

If I want better graphics than a PS3 on a PC on modern games at HD resolutions, I'm paying a lot more than the price of a PS3 for that experience.

If I wanted to do it two years ago when I got my PS3, I'd be paying even more.

Also note, the PS3 has exclusives, not a huge library of them, but enough that I wouldn't actually be happy gaming on just my PC instead. But I do have both.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[Anonymous Coward]

From a stock-holder's point-of-view?

Damn straight.

Re:Your nut-guard's wearing thin.

[gnick]

I think that your definition of "best" may differ from industry's. I'm inferring that you're defining "best" as "highest quality". From a corporate stand-point, that's dead wrong. Making the highest quality product is the best decision iff it maximizes your profit. Otherwise it's an ego-stroking mistake.

Think of it this way - Would you rather have half of the profits made from Windows or Linux? McDonald's or Red Robin*? Titanic or Serenity?

Ask the CEOs from Nintendo, Sony, and MS whether they want to have the best console on the market or the one that makes the most money. If they're telling the truth, they'll modify your definition of "best".

*Sorry - I couldn't think of a great burger joint that everyone would know off of the top of my head - Red Robin is decent, lower profit than McDonald's, and well known, but far from the best burger around. If you're ever in Albuquerque, grab a burger and a beer from Chama River Brewing Company just off I-25 & Jefferson. I have no affiliation with them, but they provide awesome burgers & beer.

Dejà Vué All Over Again

[GilliamOS]

I feel this discussion probably happened when the upgrade from SNES to N64 occurred. Back then, who could think of the next big revolution in gaming now that it was 3D? They will find something new, no doubt. Just a matter of how long of a gap between Wii and the new generation console.

Re:Dejà Vué All Over Again

[Enderandrew]

The PC world had been saying for years that 3D was where it was at, and you could see how well Wolfenstein 3D, Doom and the like took off. It took consoles a while to catch up, but the big thing for me with the N64 was the analog joystick. The 3D implementation wasn't great, and camera was terrible. Not to mention that the PS1 killed the N64 in the number of games and sales, despite many games on the PS1 remaining 2D.

Re:Dejà Vué All Over Again

[aliquis]

Though N64 biggest flaw was the cartridges.

Gamecubes biggest flaw was sadly the N64.

Re:Dejà Vué All Over Again

[forkazoo]

Though N64 biggest flaw was the cartridges.

Gamecubes biggest flaw was sadly the N64.

Carts certainly had drawbacks, but you had to love the load time on an N64. With modern hardware X times more powerful than an N64, we have to wait much, much longer to do stuff.

Re:Dejà Vué All Over Again

[aweraw]

You almost brought a tear to my eye... How I long for a return to sub-second level loads. *sniff*

Re:Dejà Vué All Over Again

[MemoryDragon]

Gamecubes biggest flaw was the refusal of Nintendo to add a DVD drive. Nowadays this does not matter anymore back then it seriously was the death of that console!

Re:Dejà Vué All Over Again

[aliquis]

The gamecube HAS a DVD-drive.

It doesn't play DVD-video though, but who cares?

Less third party games and worse sales than the Playstation obviously mattered more.

Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter. Look at DS graphics compared to PSP graphics, or Wii graphics to PS3 graphics. Why issue a new console with the same controllers?

Either make a new console with updated controllers, or completely new controllers. If you're going to use the same controllers, keep the same console.

Re:Next Console?

[andy9701]

But graphics do matter, to some extent. How many games have been developed for the Xbox 360 and/or PS3, but not for the Wii (or maybe a PS2/watered down port was released on the Wii instead)? I only have a Wii (have thought about getting a 360 or PS3, but nothing more as of yet), and there have been quite a few games that I would like to play, but can't, since they haven't been ported to the Wii.

Don't get me wrong - Nintendo makes some great games given the capabilities of the Wii. They're just tying third party developers' hands in the process.

If Nintendo's next console doesn't have the same amount of horsepower as its competitors, then it's going to start losing the hardcore audience (more than they already are, at any rate). Maybe they only want to cater to casual gamers and make tons of money that way - that is their choice, after all. But they shouldn't expect the hardcore gamers to be excited about their hardware if they don't keep up with the times.

Re:Next Console?

[DigiShaman]

No, graphics don't have to matter, but they do aid in the fantasy immersion.

Graphics hardware is getting cheap and plentiful in the market. Why would you want to skimp on it when HDTV display technology is replacing the old 4:3 aspect standard?

Re:Next Console?

[spire3661]

Nintendo has proven that commodity hardware can produce acceptable images fo the mass market at reduced cost. Your statement is a bit overzealous.

Re:Next Console?

[Helios1182]

It turns out you don't need to play to the hardcore gamers. For every hardcore gamer there are a dozen who practically never play video games. My grandparents have a Wii (and use it). Some of their friends have Wiis. They've never shown interest in any other system.

Re:Next Console?

[philspear]

Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter.

When there's a more interesting improvement, at least to the novice gamers. The touch screen and the wiimote are new control devices that attracted a lot of attention and sold a lot of consoles. If nintendo had a standard controller for the wii, it would be selling dead last. That would be partially because of the graphics issue, but I think more because of the dearth of quality games for it.

Of course, you could argue that more people would make games for the wii if it weren't for the controller situation. I really don't know, all I know is that on the wii, most of the games that are worth your time are basically made by nintendo, or else are wii-ware games that are much shorter than a regular release.

That's pretty much the opposite of the other two. Microsoft did own bungie, which made Halo, and Sony has a few of their own, but by and large, you don't buy a PS3 for sony games, or a 360 for microsoft games.

I can't fathom nintendo going back to a more traditional control scheme completely, since it's a great possibility. I could see them making a more traditional controller standard, in addition to the wiimote style controller, to encourage lazy developers to include the wii in their releases.

It would be nice in my opinion if the next nintendo was compatible with the current wiimote, but was graphically more capable, to allow the wii to get all the 3rd party games that were being released on the other consoles... of course then the price would be out of the current range of the current customer base. Oh well, I still want to have my cake and eat it too. Next wii will be more powerful than an XBOX 720, have the wiimote, and will be $20, that's my hope.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Graphics do matter to me. I bought a PS3 first, and bought a Wii later. I like what the PS3 offers, and in a perfect world I would love to see Nintendo go the Sega route and focus on games, rather than offer a console anymore. Let Sony and/or Microsoft take a loss on the hardware, and then create peripherals and games.

That being said, it isn't just graphics as why PS3/360 games don't end up on the Wii. The Wii can't handle complex physics or anything that requires a decent CPU. Heck, Guitar Hero 3 for the Wii originally shipped with MONO sound, because it was really pushing the Wii apparently for the CPU to handle Guitar Hero 3 with stereo sound.

Yet the Wii is selling like mad. They're aiming for a different market than the 360/PS3 crowd. The casual gaming crowd is actually larger. That crowd doesn't care about graphics as much.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

I didn't say that graphics don't matter. I said they don't HAVE TO matter.

By catering to a different demographic, graphics aren't an issue. The hardcore gamer who wants the best looking games will pick up the PS3/360 first. The casual gamer will pick up the Wii first.

Re:Next Console?

[grumbel]

Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter.

Nintendo has mainly shown that graphics don't matter for *them*, if you look at third party developers you get a whole different picture, graphics matter a lot of them, which is why none of them has their big games on the Wii, the big money goes into PS3 and Xbox360 titles.

Re:Next Console?

[LandDolphin]

To them and the millions of people that have purcahsed a Wii

Re:Next Console?

[ninjackn]

Sony has proven controllers don't have to matter. Look at the PS1 controller compared to the P2 controller, or rockband guitar controller to the guitar hero guitar controller.

Why issue a new console with the same controllers?

After spending who knows how much on controllers (
Powerpads, DDR Pads, Arcade Sticks, Guitars, Drums, mics, Wiimote, Wiimote, Wiimote)
I would be HAPPY if the new console was compatible with the older controllers ESPECIALLY since the wiimote can just be used as a wireless connection to the wii/next console.

Re:Next Console?

[sesshomaru]

Look I understand that Nintendo can be profitable making "Games for Grandma." However, if you aren't interested in games for Grandma, why would you care?

Put it another way, do you remember in old issues of the New Zork Times when they were trying to push Cornerstone, their new database program? Well, callow youth that I was, I was slightly interested in it (I was interested in computers in general) but I couldn't understand what these articles were doing in a newsletter from my favorite game company (Infocom).

Now, in an alternate universe where my favorite game company became a business software company and dropped out of the game business (as opposed to the real world where they bankrupted themselves with this ill-conceived venture) would I still care about them? Probably not.

I may get a Wii someday, but it would be a vast understatement to say that I am disappointed with most of the games for it. They certainly aren't using there position as number one console to attract anything too outside what you'd expect, and it seems like when you look at their console they get the occaisional Manhunt or Bully but no Bioshock or Fallout (or Persona for that matter).

Re:Next Console?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Heck, Guitar Hero 3 for the Wii originally shipped with MONO sound, because it was really pushing the Wii apparently for the CPU to handle Guitar Hero 3 with stereo sound.

Yeah, that's why it was released on the PS2. :P

The CPU problem was with the PC version, not the Wii version.

Re:Next Console?

[tukkayoot]

I'm a Nintendo fanboy, camped out for my Wii on launch day, don't own a PS3 or 360, but I have to say that I think some of the criticisms against the Wii here are spot-on. The idea of motion-controlled games is nice, but I think the implementation leaves something to be desired, and the lack of a hard drive and strong graphical capabilities (compared to the other consoles) really does limit the system's potential.

As for the casual gamers ... a friend of mine with all three systems regularly hosts game nights for his church and guess what system we end up playing the most? The PS3 for Rock Band/Rock Band 2 and, more recently, Little Big World. Of course, Rock Band is available on the Wii as well, but the fact that new songs are released every week has helped keep the game fresh, while the novelty of the wiimote faded a long time ago.

The Wii may have broader appeal than the other systems, but that doesn't mean it's a better system. That's why I'm with the parent in hoping that the next Nintendo system is packing some horsepower. Your grandparents will presumably still be happy with GameCube-level graphics two years from now Nintendo can keep releasing new controllers and relatively simple, inexpensive games to keep that segment of the market happy.

But as for me, I want the next generation of Zelda, Mario and Metroid games to push the envelope, not only in terms of game-play and controls, but also when it comes to scope, graphics, etc. and enjoy every major multiplatform release on my Nintendo without the game losing any major features or visual appeal.

Re:Next Console?

[Helios1182]

Some of the criticism is certainly valid and spot on, but this doesn't mean that it is necessarily a problem for Nintendo. Better is a very subjective term. To some it is the range of games, graphics, or innovation. To Nintendo, best is more likely tied to profits and market share.

It may be in Nintendo's best interest to abandon the traditional, smaller hardcore gamer demographic in favor of a much broader new demographic. You can't have the top of the line hardware and keep prices really low, at least not while making a profit. Honestly, it would really surprise me if we didn't see some shifts in the video game industry. Certain companies (or even the same one) targeting different groups. The more diverse the gaming population the more diverse the requirements and styles they will demand.

Just because Nintendo changes their focus doesn't mean there won't be other companies to fill the desires of hardcore gamers. Like you said, you could get a PS3 or XB360. Actually, I would like to see more diversity in systems. Give me another company that comes up with a new platform and controller paradigm. Develop a system for people with disabilities. What should happen is more competition and more innovation -- better for everyone in the long run.

Conclusion: Nintendo no longer catering to their traditional demographic may be sad, but it isn't bad -- someone else will pick up the slack if there is demand.

*I don't own any of the systems, but I have played them all. They are all fun and good in their own ways, but none is perfect for everything.

Re:Next Console?

[cheater512]

Nintendo doesnt care about the hardcore audience.
They are doing what they have always done best - making fun games.

The number of polygons in a game is not proportional to how fun the game is - no matter what the Microsoft and Sony marketing departments say.

The reason why the Wii is outselling the other two consoles is because it focuses on fun and the quality of the games.
That appeals to the majority of the market.

Re:Next Console?

[cheater512]

One reason is because graphics hardware *isnt* cheap.

Go in a store and look at the prices of the consoles.
You will see that the Wii is the cheapest by a good margin, and Nintendo isnt making a loss on the consoles unlike Sony and MS.

Re:Next Console?

[cheater512]

And thats also why more Wii's are sold than the PS3 and Xbox. :P

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Except the PS2 version could put out stereo sound.

Re:Next Console?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Yeah and the Wii is significantly more powerful than the PS2. It wasn't due to lack of power, it was simply a fuckup and it ended in a class action lawsuit.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Who the hell modded that Troll?

Frankly I don't care, but I am really confused. I get when people disagree or don't like certain comments, but I am really confused here.

Who seriously thought I was trolling there?

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

The graphics do matter, because non-2D DS games looks like shit and 2D games would look so much better with the same system specs as the PSP. And many games would look much better on the Wii if it had the PS3s hardware.

Your logic is flawed, just because it's superior in other ways, which may even tip the balance scale over don't make graphics not mattering.

Why NOT use a new console with the same controllers?

I'm really confident Nintendo would sell lots of DS2s even if they had the same controllers but much updated performance. Same for Wii.

PSP isn't even a failure, it sells really well, sure DS outperforms it, but the PSP is still a huge success.

The PS3 probably fails on highest price and really few reasons to get that console since it's so few exclusive titles and it kind of don't offer much over the 360.

Graphics DO matter, DS and Wii still sells good.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

... Also while Nintendo may be innovative in hardware they don't offer that innovative software. Sure there are cooking books, this music software, WiiFit, Nintendogs and crap like that but neither of that would interest me.

Their biggest titles are most often the same old favourites. But how funny is the next mario game? New Mario Kart? Next Metroid FPS?

More or less the same fucking experience.

New graphics/performance don't guarantee new games, but you can make some games which couldn't be made before because they would had been too complex.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

... Also (again...) compare say Call of Duty on the DS to PC/PS3/whatever and say that you'd rather play that game on the DS ...

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

And how many games have they compared to a hardcore gamer?

Re:Next Console?

[andy9701]

You said what I meant to say - the Wii just can't handle what the others can. I'm no Nintendo fanboy, but I've always enjoyed their games. If they can't keep up with the others come the next generation of consoles, I doubt that I'll buy the Nintendo console next time around.

Re:Next Console?

[Ihmhi]

I'm glad to see that there can be people here who own a console and aren't going to irrationally defend it when they are presented with its flaws.

I don't own a Wii, but a close friend of mine owned one. I tried out some of the games and I was thoroughly unimpressed. The motion controls are often gimmicky and not implemented very well. I don't think I've read or seen a review yet about a game that makes ample use of the motion controls and there isn't some complaint about them being glitchy. (If you do happen upon one, please feel free to post it here in response.)

The PS3's Sixaxis controls have (from the reviews I've seen) been often reviewed unfavorably as well. The real matter is games that require it versus games that offer it as an option. Both consoles have games that would have been great had it not been for the required motion controls and no option to change them.

I honestly think Nintendo deliberately went for low-powered, cheap, and gimmicky for the Wii. The Gamecube didn't perform as well as they had expected. I think that they wanted something they could crank out cheaply and make a profit on. (I believe PS3s and 360s are sold at a loss, whereas a Wii represents something on the order of $50 profit for Nintendo.)

IMO this is all basically Nintendo trying to recover from its missteps in the last 10 years. I'm hoping that they can come up with something interesting in the next generation that is as innovative as the Wii is without sacrificing graphics or functionality. And please, enough with the gimmicks!

Re:Next Console?

[westlake]

Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter. Look at DS graphics compared to PSP graphics, or Wii graphics to PS3 graphics.

The HDTV "set" just keeps getting bigger and better and cheaper. Maxing out at 480p isn't going to cut it the next time around.

There is also competition from the Blu-Ray BD player, the PS3 and the XBox 360 integrated with Netflix and other services.

The do-everything HD media box is edging very close to the price point of a next generation Nintendo.

Re:Next Console?

[andy9701]

That's very true. If that's the direction that Nintendo wants to go, more power to them. I just don't think that I'm their target market anymore, sadly.

Re:Next Console?

[i.of.the.storm]

I agree that usually their biggest and best titles are continuations of their classic franchises, but you have to admit that those games (Zelda, Mario Kart, Metroid (which is not an FPS by the way), Smash) are all really good, and Smash and Mario Kart have an incredible amount of replay value. I play Brawl nearly every day, and a lot of people in college do the same. They might not always make huge innovations in gameplay, but they do make pretty damn fun games.

Re:Next Console?

[maglor_83]

Actually I see the 360 Arcade is the cheapest, with the Pro being the same price as the Wii.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Here is the weird thing, Nintendo isn't milking these franchises enough. Where is Castlevania? Where is Metroid? Why didn't they have a real Mario game during the entire Gamecube lifespan? (Sunshine wasn't a proper sequel to 64 the way Galaxy is).

Instead Nintendo leaves their fans screaming for more, year after year, and instead resells the same game we've bought on three different systems on the virtual console.

Re:Next Console?

[grumbel]

39mil Wii, 24mil Xbox360, 18mil PS3

When you take them one by one the Wii wins by a long shot, but PS3 and Xbox360 together still have more then the Wii. 'Hardcore gaming' isn't half as dead as some people claim. Seems more like an even split between hardcore and casual stuff these days.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Actually my PS3 just died. My daughter shoved change in the BluRay slot and screwed the laser up. However Sony has a deal where you can buy a new PS3 for $250 brand new through them if you sign up for a Sony card. I just ordered one. So a brand new PS3 at Wii pricing. It is hard to argue with.

Re:Next Console?

[grumbel]

Where is Castlevania?

It came out a few days ago and judging from the reviews it sucks pretty badly.

Re:Next Console?

[RyoShin]

Disclaimer: I own a Nintendo Wii and love it.

Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter

...to the non-hardcore crowd, whom I shall refer to as "casuals" for the purpose of this post (though the term is a bad one, IMO).

True, a lot of the "hardcore" Nintendo fans have embraced it, but more because they had to than they wanted to. The thing with casual players is that they have far less brand loyalty. If the PS4 or XBox1080 can match Nintendo's next console on controls (I guarantee they'll all use something based off of Nintendo's Wiimote) and offer the same price, these casuals fill flock. Part of that is because the PS3 and 360 already do a hell of a lot more than the Wii does now, and I don't think Nintendo's going to turn around on that. After all, their answer to "need more gigs" was "here, gigs transfer faster now!" Media playback (especially DVDs, BR with the PS3), profiles, working with friends accounts (seriously, who wants to deal with a 12 digit number when you can just get username?), and so forth.

What Nintendo does have going for it, though, is limit(CGI)->inf. Graphics can still increase, but every new leap will be less distinguishable from the last. Compare 2600 to NES, NES to SNES, SNES to PS1, PS1 to XBox, XBox to PS3. I don't know that there's a point where graphics won't ever be able to increase (we might hit a "good enough" level where further refinement slows down), but over time there will be less of a need to do so. Microsoft and Sony will likely focus on making another "leap" in their graphics, seeing that as a huge benefit when paired with their Wiimote-copycats, while Nintendo will be able to just play catchup. If Nintendo brings out a console that's on par with the 360, they'll be much closer to whatever MSFT/Sony comes out with than they are now.

But, for the time being, a lot of games that developers would love to stick on the Wii because of its install base aren't getting the Wii treatment when going mutli-console, because 95% of the time this means that the team has to re-work half the game rather than just cut bits and pieces then port it. When casuals are so willing to jump ship, Nintendo might find themselves in a precarious situation if they make the wrong moves (such as they did with the SNES->N64 era) since the more loyal and "hardcore" side may be straddling the line to get their fill of amazing graphics and good online play (Nintendo's online strategy is horrible.) It also doesn't help that many times the motion controls are "forced" on there by developers, making no sense and just being there so they can claim "we do waggle!" Not a fault of Nintendo, of course, but it still doesn't help.

(On a side note, I believe Nintendo should go with HD-DVD for their next console media format.)

Re:Next Console?

[pizzach]

But graphics do matter, to some extent. How many games have been developed for the Xbox 360 and/or PS3, but not for the Wii (or maybe a PS2/watered down port was released on the Wii instead)? I only have a Wii (have thought about getting a 360 or PS3, but nothing more as of yet), and there have been quite a few games that I would like to play, but can't, since they haven't been ported to the Wii.

There is a lovely chicken and egg problem here that most people don't realize. Even if Nintendo released a more conventional system, they would still have problems getting mature games on their system. Further complicating the problem, development costs are much more expensive for HD games and Nintendo hardware was growing less popular at the time. I don't think a lot of the popular Xbox 360 and PS3 would have made it to Nintendo's console either way.

Re:Next Console?

[infrequent]

Castlevania is not produced or developed by Nintendo; they have nothing to do with it. Metroid and Mario games, of course, are, and their entries on the Wii have been excellent by most estimations.

Re:Next Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

Real men play Wii and PC games. The best combination by far.

Re:Next Console?

[Sparton]

Weaker graphics is an interesting point, but it's far from the only one.

Think of something like Dynasty Warriors: Gundam. There's no way in hell a game like that could ever get released for the Wii, because it's got way too much going on at once. All of the enemies on screen, with all their AI running, all of their attacks (shooting attacks? Better generate particles that have to check for collision every frame), all of the other random particle effects, all the enemies in level doing what they're supposed to do... all that eats up a lot of horsepower.

Since less of everything has to go on at once, you have to redesign how enemies react, how many are going to take action at once, and so forth.

Then you take into the graphics thing, about how each model needs to be made lower poly and each texture smaller, and you can't really do that in 10 seconds and have it not look like garbage.

And with all of that, it makes the tens of thousands of lines of code for the initial version unusable in the new environment in any way. Even though you'd have to rewrite it for a different platform anyways (even between PS3 and 360), a lot of the logic would end up changing because of how everything would have to be redesigned to work at a weaker scale. It's basically like taking someone else's game, then redoing it from scratch. And that costs a lot of money, for a market of gamers that is largely made out to be casual.

Re:Next Console?

[lysergic.acid]

well, the DSi looks to be the next generation of the DS (as the DS won't be forwards-compatible with DSi games), and it's pretty much going to be exactly what you said--DS controls with much more processing power.

and you're absolutely right about the PSP. the DS, like the Wii, appeals to a lot more casual gamers and thus outsells the PSP. however, the PSP is an incredible device in its own right. as a portable general entertainment system, it beats the DS hands down. and though the DS' touchscreen creates a lot of new & interesting gameplay possibilities, the DS' hardware just doesn't cut it for modern 3D graphics. the two systems are made for two different markets; just because the DS appeals to a larger population doesn't mean it's superior.

personally, i'd rather have a portable device that surfs the web, plays music/videos, displays e-books, and can play 3D sports games, racers, shooters, etc. than a device that only plays games, and that can't run the type of games that i like.

Re:Next Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

I took a vow of silence and I'm averse to aggression, but Jesus, I'm tired of this. Why does every post praising Microsoft has to start with "I'm a Linux fanboy, but", and every post praising Sony with "I'm a Nintendo fanboy, but"? I'm tired of this karma-whoring gimmick.

Re:Next Console?

[VinylRecords]

Why issue a new console with the same controllers?

Are you serious?

Why get a new computer with the same mouse and keyboard? When you got your new computer didn't you get the new radical mouse with the toaster attached to it? Or the keyboard that could transform into a duck?

Maybe people get a new PC or console with the SAME controllers because the new computer/console is faster, or has a new graphics processors, digital optical output, twice as much ram, a dvd player, a blu ray player, internet capability, etc.

The mouse and keyboard combo has been around on computers for years and people don't get completely new controllers for their PCs (and MACs). Why would SONY change the PS1/PS2 controller radically for the PS3. The PS3 Dualshock 3 controller is perfect for most games that don't need a custom controller (like an arcade stick or drum set). "If it ain't broke don't fix it".

Mouse and keyboard is still great, Dualshock is still excellent.

Re:Next Console?

[PitaBred]

Nintendo makes a profit on each console, and has a huge fan-base. Why would they consider losing money on consoles like Sony and Microsoft do?

Sony and Microsoft are like Ferrari and Lamborghini. Fast, flashy, expensive, and only for die-hards. The Wii is a nice little 4-door sedan that anyone can get in and drive, and it's even got a nice little plastic spoiler on the back to make it a bit sporty. No, there aren't a lot of heavy-horsepower games on the Wii... but there are a lot of accessible, fun games on it. Which is what is making Nintendo a metric fuckton of money.

And if they make a higher-horsepower version of the Wii that's backwards compatible? I'll buy it in a heartbeat. But the Wii's games are just more fun for family and friends than on other systems.

Re:Next Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

Next Metroid FPS?

The metroid series wasn't originally an FPS, but a non-linear action adventure side scrolling game. It was actually an innovation back when Metroid Prime came out that the transition from 2D to 3D was made.

Re:Next Console?

[PitaBred]

And the people MAKING the big money are the ones selling the games for the Wii.

Initially the Wii wasn't expected to be a hit, so all the big houses geared up for the PS3/360. Of course their flagship games won't come out for the Wii... they weren't planning on it. But the PS3 and the 360 are made for hardcore gamers, and there are a lot more casual gamers out there. Companies are realizing that, and a number of them have announced games for the Wii that they weren't originally planning on ever having.

Re:Next Console?

[walshy007]

the ps1 controller was essentially a snes controller with extra l/r buttons. as much as I'd hate to say it, I'd like to see them do something original for once.

Re:Next Console?

[CronoCloud]

But how many games do they have? It's fine that the casual gamers and granny gamers own Wii's but for a lot of those folks, they use it like one of those 5 old arcade games in a joystick things. It's essentially a box that plays Wii sports (or perhaps Wii Fit for those thirtysomething/fortysomething soccer moms who use it instead of Yoga/Pilates DVD's) and not much more. In this household the PS3 is used more hours, because it is more versatile, video/music/games/GameOS web browser good enough for Hulu/Linux)

Re:Next Console?

[CronoCloud]

Don't forget all those PS2's that Sony is still selling...that thing just won't DIE.

Re:Next Console?

[Narishma]

Fun is subjective.

Re:Next Console?

[andy9701]

I'd agree with you, except for one small problem: DRM. Many PC games that are ports of console titles are so filled with limiting DRM that you can't install them without messing up your computer. Take Mirror's Edge (currently available for the 360 and PS3) - while I haven't heard an official announcement yet, I would be very surprised if it didn't include SecureROM since EA is publishing it. Even if they are "generous" and allow 5 installs (like with Red Alert 3) instead of 3 (like with Spore), you still can't uninstall SecureROM without reinstalling your operating system. That is not something that I want to support with my money.

I realize that developers and publishers need to do something to protect their games on the PC, but that's just going too far. While there is some DRM built into console titles, it is no where near as bad as with PC games.

Re:Next Console?

[grumbel]

As far as I know most of the bigger third-party games on Wii have tanked, the games that sell are the Nintendo ones. Those publishers that make money are making it because they produce the cheap minigame collections, not those that do the Zack&Wikis.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

Because after two weeks I got bored of the Wii and frustrated that the miracle-motion-sensing really wasn't all that great. I don't have four people over at my house to play Mario Kart all the time, which might prolong the life of the console. As a single player, I have played my PS3 for a year and I don't get tired of it because there are tons of single player games with great experiences there, and free online play. The Wii requires me to get friend codes and none of my friends own a Wii.

Re:Next Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

MarioKart on Wii is good. Smash on Wii is a horribly broken abomination of boring.

Re:Next Console?

[Jeppe Salvesen]

Agreed. I guess Nintendo needed the Wii in order to regain the initiative. They plainly did not have the research resources to both keep focus on the performance cycle and creating the wiimote. Hopefully the Wiii will display pretty graphics on our 40+ inch 1080p TV sets!

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

I think mario kart is quite boring in single player, it's really good vs someone else though but I doubt it makes a huge difference if you play it on say the gamecube or the wii?

I'm not really into smash brawl, but I haven't been much into any fighting game except maybe street figher II because I never learn all the combinations :D. Just press around ;/

I agree they are fun, but not very innovative, lots of them is the same old. 3 castlevania games on the DS, 3-4 on the GBA, and so on, story will probably be totally different and level design to but it's still very familiar.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

I hate the fucking pussels in Sunshine, they are too hard for me :D
And I don't like how the concept is so different, but galaxy looks pretty different to. Wasn't there supposed to be a Mario 128 for the gamecube? Or was that for Wii/Revolution?

There is a whole bunch of Castlevania on the DS.

2 Metroid on Gamecube, 1 on Wii, 1 "real one" on DS and 1 "pinball" on DS.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

It's not a next generation DS, just a DS with cam and SD-card slot but no ability to play GBA. Obviously some games won't be backwards compatible.

I haven't heard anything about more processing power on it, scrapping the ARM7 I may have heard.

I have the DS, but I would soo like it if it offered the graphical capabilities of the PSP, and he said graphics don't matter ...

Kind of all 3D-environment games on the DS looks like shit, and the RPGs (even the 3D ones) and such could look even better in higher res.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

But it plays like an FPS now? Even though it might be an "adventure puzzle map exploring FPS."

I have Metroid on my NES to, so I know what it was ..

Re:Next Console?

[flitty]

The number of polygons in a game is not proportional to how fun the game is - no matter what the Microsoft and Sony marketing departments say.

Unless those polygons are directly proportional to the number of Enemies the system is able to generate/show. SEE: Dead Rising for Wii. A mall full of, say, 6 zombies just doesn't seem to have the same effect/gameplay possibilities.
There are some gameplay ideas/mechanics that require more advanced physics simulations and processing power to do. Do Physics = Fun? No, but processing power does allow for different gameplay possibilities.

Re:Next Console?

[pembo13]

And some people are too hardcore for fun.

Re:Next Console?

[rxan]

Wii being better for Nintendo or not, I was severely disappointed by the console.

However, if you aren't interested in games for Grandma, why would you care?

Exactly. I felt that most of the games simply weren't as immersive as with other consoles. They were either directed towards casual gamers and might as well have been put on Pop Cap online games, or the flaky motion controls just got in the way of the experience. After having the console for 4 months, I had already stopped playing. I have heard similar experiences from many, many people.

Maybe innovate the controllers fully next time instead of cheaping-out just to make a profit. It would also help if any third parties were able to make as good of games as first parties when using motion controls.

Good news is that everyone's still hooked on the system, so Christmas is going to be a great time to sell!

Re:Next Console?

[rxan]

The reason why the Wii is outselling the other two consoles is because it focuses on fun and the quality of the games.

I disagree with that. Most Wii games focus on using motion controls for the sake of using motion controls. It mostly results in a bad experience that people think they will like because they have never tried it before. This is why Nintendo keeps popping out different peripherals every few months: to entice new gamers.

But to say that there is fun and quality in their games, well I wouldn't agree with that. A lot of the games for Wii would be much more fun without motion controls at all.

Re:Next Console?

[Narishma]

No they just like a different kind of fun.

Re:Next Console?

[Mister_Stoopid]

Competition is great, but the last thing I want is ten different systems, each with 1 or 2 exclusive titles that I really want to play.

Re:Next Console?

[lysergic.acid]

upon more research, it appears that i was indeed mistaken. but this iterative upgrade to the DS still confuses me. i mean, why not just come out with a camera attachment for the DS and DS lite so that early adopters don't get left out on new titles?

i'm still really torn about the DS. its larger market share means that it gets the lion's share of games, especially smaller non-mainstream titles. it's sort of in the same niche as the PSX or PS2 in terms of all the import RPGs it gets, most of which are 2D and sprite-based isometric perspective. even franchises that were traditionally native to the PS1 and PS2, such as the Front Mission series, are going to the DS rather than PSP.

but i still can't bring myself to buy a second portable gaming device for those games alone (i still have plenty of PSP games i haven't even had time to play through), plus a used PS2 would probably be cheaper if i want to play games from those franchises. so for now i guess i'll just have to settle for playing old PSX titles using PopStation.

Re:Next Console?

[EastCoastSurfer]

More or less the same fucking experience.

You've pretty much described all of gaming. Adding better graphics or more guys on the screen at once doesn't change the fact that it's the same game as the ones before it. I'd love to hear about all these 'new' games that we can now have because of better graphics and horsepower. The last great, innovative game I played was Braid from the xbox arcade. Braid could have been on any platform since the gameplay is what made it such a good game.

Re:Next Console?

[PitaBred]

And you probably live alone, don't you? Those of us with families really like the Wii because it doesn't force one person to monopolize the TV if they want to play a game. I still have games on the PS2 I want to play through, but I don't because my wife wants to use the TV, too. We can agree on playing things like Mario Kart or Raving Rabbids together, though.

Re:Next Console?

[Enderandrew]

I have a wife, a daughter, and my mother-in-law moved in with us. However my daughter is three. We play Wii together, in that I give her a Wiimote without batteries when I'm playing and she "plays" along. My wife and I occasionally play together, but we both really got bored with the Wii after about two-three weeks.

We have tons of TVs, tons of consoles, and tons of computers in this house. I prefer social activities, but we often tend to do our own thing.

Re:Next Console?

[tukkayoot]

Conclusion: Nintendo no longer catering to their traditional demographic may be sad, but it isn't bad -- someone else will pick up the slack if there is demand.

It's bad in the sense that someone else pointed out -- it means you have to spend $300 (plus accessories) on a console if you want access to Nintendo's traditional franchise titles, but doesn't get many of the big AAA cross-platform games like Fallout 3 (maybe a bad example, because I'd prefer to play it on the PC anyway).

Also, I'm someone who enjoys casual titles as well as the more hardcore ones, and it seems to me that Nintendo is getting a little lazy in this regard too. One of the first things that got me excited about the Wii upon reading about WiiConnect24 and the motion controls was the next Animal Crossing game -- but it turns out that Animal Crossing: City Folk is just an unimaginative rehash of the previous AC titles that doesn't even try to use many of the Wii's best features to its advantage. That may be fine for folks who didn't own the GameCube version of the game, but for me it was a big letdown. I'm not even going to bother to buy one of the games that had me most psyched-up about the console in the first place.

They're catering to a more casual audience, but also a less critical and demanding audience, which means they can afford to cut corners and let quality decline and innovation lapse. Nintendo's strategy is smart, but from my own selfish perspective, I think their success may end up being a bad thing for gaming in the long run, if Nintendo (and other companies) learn the wrong lessons.

Re:Next Console?

[tepples]

If nintendo had a standard controller for the wii, it would be selling dead last.

Nintendo has the Classic Controller that plugs into the Wii Remote. Is the Classic Controller selling dead last? Or perhaps I completely misunderstand what you're trying to say.

That would be partially because of the graphics issue

Wii has more detailed graphics than PS2. So why aren't all third-party PS2 games ported to Wii?

I could see them making a more traditional controller standard, in addition to the wiimote style controller, to encourage lazy developers to include the wii in their releases.

I thought that's what the included Nunchuk was for: provide a left stick plus L1 and L2 buttons for more traditional control styles.

Re:Next Console?

[i.of.the.storm]

Mario Kart and Brawl are both mainly fun with other people, and I guess whether you enjoy the single player depends on your tastes. I find Mario Kart fun to try to perfect my times and scores, if mainly just to unlock more characters. I'm not really into any fighting games besides Brawl.

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

It's less about research and more about the unit costs. Both the 360 and PS3 had to overstretch to get a notable graphics jump on the last generation, the result was a high unit cost leading to high retail prices and losses. Nintendo had to avoid console losses (since they still had the risk of falling flat if they miscalculated) and still had to have a normal price, the new controllers already add to the unit cost and to push the graphics they'd have to throw a lot of money at each system. That additional money wouldn't have done anything if their analysis was correct (and it was) since they figured that the graphics are more than people really need and cost way more than they bring in sales.

Re:Next Console?

[tukkayoot]

OK, I'll feed the troll.

It was a cliched and unimaginative way of opening my post, but it's true. Also, wasn't really my aim to praise Sony, but I do lament the fact that the Wii lacks a couple of the big features that its competitors sport in this generation of consoles, and I hope that in the next generation of consoles, Nintendo tries harder to compete head-to-head with MS and Sony, while continuing to support the Wii as an inexpensive toy for old folks and casual gamers.

Re:Next Console?

[ShakaUVM]

>>Nintendo has proven graphics don't have to matter.

The problem is, their QA control of games released for the Wii is really spotty. More than half the games I've bought for the Wii have been so horrendously bad, that we stopped playing them in 10 minutes. Sega Tennis, Godzilla Unleashed, Super Monkey Ball: Banana Blitz, the list goes on and on.

Sony maintains a much tighter control of game development, and there's only been one game for the PS3 (the Sonic game that came out when the PS3 first came out) that was really, really terrible.

Re:Next Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

They certainly aren't using there position as number one console to attract anything too outside what you'd expect, and it seems like when you look at their console they get the occaisional Manhunt or Bully but no Bioshock or Fallout (or Persona for that matter).

That's kinda funny that you put it that way, because those kind of games *are* exactly what I'd expect to see on a console, and the Wii's lack of them are notable. Nintendo *is* doing stuff outside what you'd expect.

As a previously-but-no-longer-hardcore gamer, I don't care to play games like Manhunt, Bully, Bioshock, or Fallout anymore (at least not with high replay value). I'm in my late 20s and grew up with the original NES and GameBoy, then SNES, and then N64. I skipped the GameCube and dropped back a generation, getting a PS1 to play with, but I probably stopped considering myself a hardcore console gamer shortly after I got my N64 (probably the girlfriend in HS had a bit to do with that).

Fast-forward a bunch of years: I just started playing Wii (a couple friends have one), and this is the first time in years I'm interested in getting a console again (I've decided I'll be getting one for Christmas). Yes, I've played Xbox, Xbox 360, PS2, and PS3; my experience with any one of them is certainly more extensive than with the Wii. But the Wii is just... much more compelling.

Sure, it might not be for everyone, but... so what? Nintendo is still (back to?) a company I'm happy to spend money on.

Re:Next Console?

[kelnos]

They're catering to a more casual audience, but also a less critical and demanding audience, which means they can afford to cut corners and let quality decline and innovation lapse.

I'm not sure I buy that. Just because someone is the kind of gamer who plays for 30 minutes 2 or 3 times per week before going to bed and not 2 hours a day every day, it doesn't mean they understand less about game quality. In some cases I'd argue just the opposite: the play controls and experience need to be much tighter to avoid frustrating people who aren't used to a 'normal' gaming experience.

Single anecdotal data point, but: I'm a former hardcore gamer who grew up with the NES and SNES. I'm now a casual gamer -- if anything, I'm even more critical and demanding than I used to be. Back then, I'd play just for the sake of playing, for wanting to complete a game. Now I play because I want to have fun. If a game throws stupid obstacles at me (whether it's a part of lazy storytelling or poor use of the controller or whatever), I'm not going to have fun, and I'm not going to keep plugging away at it simply because I "have to."

In contrast, I have a friend who grew up *never* playing video games, and today still doesn't like playing them. When she's coaxed/cajoled into playing, she usually ends up frustrated very quickly. After I get my Wii, I hope to see if she might find games on it that she actually could enjoy. I'm optimistic.

Re:Next Console?

[kelnos]

Both consoles have games that would have been great had it not been for the required motion controls and no option to change them.

This I think is key. I recently played Mario Kart for the first time on the Wii, with the semi-ridiculous wiimote steering-wheel attachment. The game was actually very frustrating, with the karts very difficult to control. Fortunately, the game allows you to play in the more traditional non-motion-controlled manner.

(I did try the motion-controlled method again later, but this time without the steering-wheel attachment, and I had a much better time. Perhaps it's just something that takes some getting used to. But the point is that Nintendo at least gave the gamer a choice here.)

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

See: Earth Defense Force 2 (PS2). Tons of enemies swarming towards you at the same time in a city where you can destroy any building with a few explosives (and bigger weapons will level a whole block, especially when the UFOs go all Independence Day on the city). It's all about the implementation.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

Well, I guess they could make a camera for the GBA-slot, maybe they will. Though it's also Nintendo and they like to give the same old people an excuse to buy the same console again :D

The DSi offer more things, such as some internal storage and so on. Guess we'll have to wait to see what it will actually be used for. But it's no-way a DS2 or a necessary upgrade. GBA, GBA SP, Gameboy Micro.. Similar with DS, DS lite, DSi, just small improvements.

I wonder if there will really be much awesome games using the webcam, they lose GBA-slot for games like guitar hero, asteroid game and rumble packs, and obviously all GBA games.
Also the DSi won't be region free for a few games which need more region specific connections to the Internet or whatever. Remains to be seen where that really matters.

Just wait for the DS 2 then or whatever the next portable may be called and hope it's backwards compatible :)

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, it's been a few years since the release already. I guess he was talking abouzt back when they were new.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

In realistic FPSs I think better graphics do matter. Nicer looking tanks, environments, bigger maps, more space to explore. On the DS Call of Duty looks really really boring.

The new one looks decent it seems:
http://dsmedia.ign.com/ds/image/article/801/801855/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare-20070705060935949_640w.jpg

Maybe it was an older game or an older versions I've seen pictures from earlier:
http://i.testfreaks.se/images/products/600x400/51/call-of-duty-4-modern-warfare-51357.321587.jpg

Ah, whatever, think that skiing game for the amiga where you go down a hill jumping over houses and such, or in tubes and old skiing games in pipes and such, and compare those to SSX :D

And in 2D cute manga-style RPGs those pretty images looks even more pretty in higher res =P, may not make the game a lot better, but well, I'd rather play it nice looking than ugly :)

I guess there need to be huge leap in technology to bring out a significant different release though, like Quake over Pong, or WoW over Quake.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

Well, I've beaten all the CC's and maps on the DS mainly playing on the toilet, not so on the Gamecube since it's not that fun.

But I really enjoy playing with someone else complaining how bad it goes and how lucky they are or trying to insult them for how bad they play :D

Yeah, I unlocked content on the DS but I haven't read about things you could unlock on the Gamecube so I haven't done that. Only the ghost map for battle which was accidently unlocked :D

Guess I should find some game guide and see what I need to do to unlock more content.

In brawl I think I've unlocked some stuff but I'm not really enjoying it but that's mainly because I don't know how to do everything with each character so each session would have to start by experimenting ..

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

The problem is that third parties put their crappy port teams on game development for the Wii (or, in the case of something like Zack & Wiki, just designed something that was bound to fail), then they wonder why they don't get as many sales as Nintendo (who's putting their best teams on their games and has some of the best teams in the industry anyway). Additionally many seem to think a "casual" game is just a game with dumbed down difficulty but otherwise the same as a core game (see e.g. Henry Hatsworth, there's NOTHING about that game that's "casual" but EA thinks of it as a "casual" game anyway) when the real "casual" games are things like Tetris. "Casual" just means not much time in one sitting and not a regular schedule for gaming, it doesn't mean no difficulty. In fact these people often play the games so much they become masters at it.

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

Obviously better graphics would be nice but "don't matter" means they're no longer a major selling point, people look more for other values than the graphics yet graphics tend to be the biggest cost in console hardware. More graphics mean more unit cost but not more sales.

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

Er, you just discard all of their innovations as not for you, then you complain they aren't innovating? If they're not for you, sure, that's something you can complain about but claiming they aren't innovating simply because none of their inventions matter to YOU?

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

"128 Marios" was a tech demo that later became Pikmin, people have been demanding a Mario 128 because they didn't like Sunshine but I don't think anything like that was ever announced.

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

Metroid Prime is as much a standard FPS as Metroid is a standard platformer. Maybe less since Prime actually plays like 3D Zelda in first person (obviously with more Metroidy designs) rather than, say, Doom.

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

Yeah, NEXT time. They won't bother with HD before then.

The do-everything HD box is irrelevant because it cannot replace the Wii. To most people the Wii is the only console they would ever consider, the PS3 and 360 just aren't options to them and a box that runs their games could just as well lack that feature since these people don't care.

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

You know, back in my day, we called ourselves "hardcore" and laughed at the graphics whores and gore kiddies who care more about superficialities than the actual gameplay but I guess nowadays people who care about "bling bling" like HD, gore, gamerscores, etc are "hardcore"...

Besides, "brand loyality" doesn't work anyway, otherwise the PS3 would have taken the same lead as the PS2, while it did have quite a few inertia sales it isn't even second place now. The number of brand loyal people is MUCH smaller than the number of people who look how a system performs before buying it.

The Wii is more than just controls, it's an integration of software and hardware. Stick a Wiimote on a 360 and Wii owners will still go "WTF" at the system menu. The software of the Wii was critical to its success. Without games like Wii Sports to drive the sales the system wouldn't have gone anywhere, it was the prospect of games anyone could understand without being treated like a retard or having to spend weeks doing the same things to progress through the story. Neither Sony nor MS seems to have any real desire to appeal to those people nor any real understanding of what it takes to get them, throwing a few B-list token games at them and calling it a day.

Also the games that go PS3/360/PC aren't going to take those "casuals" away since they aren't designed with the right requirements for these people. I know MS loves to claim things like "when they graduate from Nintendo we'll take them away" but they don't "graduate", they just have expectations that a regular game fails to fulfill. Losing those expectations is not "graduating", it's developing an insensitivity towards certain design problems in modern games.

Re:Next Console?

[philspear]

Nintendo has the Classic Controller that plugs into the Wii Remote. Is the Classic Controller selling dead last? Or perhaps I completely misunderstand what you're trying to say.

The classic controller is a seperate purchase, not included with the original wii. I'm guessing that a lot of developers don't think porting a game will be worth it if not everyone with the console can play it. Of course, with the amount of consoles the wii has sold, you've got to think that the fraction of wii owners with the classic controller rivals the number of people with PS3s or 360s.
But then, I don't think I've seen a game that can be used with the classic controller that isn't a virtual console game, so maybe nintendo restricts it's usage to the VC.

Whatever the case, it's a weak reason by itself to not put the game out on the wii. Another weak reason is the graphics issue. Another weak reason is the difference in user base. All three weak excuses though translate into few 3rd party games being made for the wii as well as the other 2 consoles.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

I think it's still a (maybe somewhat smaller) selling point, just that Nintendo has made two exceptions. Though they probably got that upgraded graphics wasn't everything themselves.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

But all those titles are shit, how many people do you think really buy and play "cooking mama" or whatever it's called? I feel poor for them.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

Well, somewhat atleast:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Mario_128

Though the name still seems to have been a name for a Mario 64 sequel.

Re:Next Console?

[tepples]

But then, I don't think I've seen a game that can be used with the classic controller that isn't a virtual console game

Then you haven't seen Super Smash Bros. Brawl (Wii Game Disc), Mario Kart Wii (Wii Game Disc), Dr. Mario Online Rx (WiiWare), or Tetris Party (WiiWare), all of which work with the Classic Controller (or with the Wii Remote alone, or with the Wii Remote and Nunchuk).

Re:Next Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

I think the chicken came before the egg.

Re:Next Console?

[MemoryDragon]

Do yourself a favor get your pc a decent graphics card which is cheaper then you have basically everything covered. The PC versions most of the times are graphically better again nowadays and cheaper. There are almost no games which you cannot also get on the PC (except for the Nintendo Stuff and the few games Sony itself produces)
Sometimes you have to wait a little bit but in the end you save a load of money because the games are on the average way cheaper for the PC!

Re:Next Console?

[KDR_11k]

Lots of people. Hell, one of the listed games was Nintendogs which got a 40/40 from Famitsu and is the best selling game this generation (VGchartz lists 20 million sales). Well, unless you count Wii Sports but that's bundled with the console in 2/3 regions, while Nintendogs bundles exist they cost more than the base system.

Re:Next Console?

[aliquis]

I know Nintendogs has sold decent, part of that is probably that it's more or less the only game advertised over here together with new super mario bros so people don't even know there exist other games for the console ...

I wonder if normal people think there haven't come any games for the DS since the TV ads always show the same shit.

Re:Next Console?

[andy9701]

That's what I'm leaning towards doing, actually. My current PC is ~4.5 years old, and can play some games, but most have minimum requirements that are well above it.

The only downside to the PC approach (aside from waiting for some releases, as you said), is that you need to be very careful regarding DRM. :(

Video games for all the family

[David Gerard]

Why stop at schoolchildren? We need a video game console that toddlers will find comfort from too.

(The Atari 2600 will rise again! As a cuddly toy!)

Mod this down fuckers!

[Anonymous Coward]

Mod this down fuckers!

NIntendo always innovated controllers

[CrazyJim1]

I'm hoping for the full body suit for the next nintendo system.

Re:NIntendo always innovated controllers

[shortbusridr]

I don't know if you were kidding or not, but that would actually be a great idea. Not an actual suit persay, but maybe a series of sensors on the body? That would actually insert your motions into the game and allow you to interact with your environment, as opposed to just putting in a video feed (PlayStation Eye). Bravo.

Re:NIntendo always innovated controllers

[Anonymous Coward]

i've been wanting this since i had my original NES...

Re:NIntendo always innovated controllers

[Walpurgiss]

And the WiiFit IX featuring a treadmill, fan resistive bicycle, and free weights to go with those sensors, so you can run, walk, bike, and lift weights without going outside at all.

Re:NIntendo always innovated controllers

[Abreu]

well, imagine small and light position sensors placed in velcro bands that are then placed in the elbows, knees, ankles, waist, shoulders and head, plus a wii-mote and nunchuk.

With this, you get (almost) full body motion capture without having to do the nightmare of trying to sell several sizes of "gaming suits"

Re:NIntendo always innovated controllers

[KingJackaL]

And imagine the hilarity when people put them on in the wrong order!

Waist band around your right arm, right arm band around your left leg - ahhh, I can just picture the legendary extensions to physics that the players' avatar will display... :D

Entertain by surprising?

[Anonymous Coward]

That's laughable, considering their penchant for pumping out a Mario, Metroid, and Zelda game with every platform. They've got this innovative hardware, and all they've done is changed it so instead of pressing A to swing your sword, you flick your wrist. You know what would actually be surprising? Opening a treasure chest in the next Zelda game and not having it pause to play the "da da da da da da da da" soundbyte.

Re:Entertain by surprising?

[renegadesx]

One way that would supprise me is next time Link opens up a treasure chest you get the WTF boom
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WzrrUM5tkhE

Re:Entertain by surprising?

[vux984]

That's laughable, considering their penchant for pumping out a Mario, Metroid, and Zelda game with every platform.

That's a fair comment. Although they've started other new and successful franchises in the interim too... Pokemon, Pikmin, Animal Crossing, Wii Sports (Wii Sports, Wii Ski, Wii Fit, Wii Sports Resort...)

They've got this innovative hardware, and all they've done is changed it so instead of pressing A to swing your sword, you flick your wrist.

Yes, well anything can be reduced to trivialities if you try hard enough.
Tell me, what was the innovation with the Xbox 360 exactly? Higher resolution textures? Now that's trivial.

And Wii's Changing it from pushing a button to flicking your wrist is a massive understatement of the real effect. The new metroid or re4 controls of point-shoot blow away anything else for immersion. A game like Mercury Meltdown or Rayman Raving Rabbids or Dewey's Adventure or Boxing are dramatically enhanced by the Wii's controller... nevermind the direction they're heading with the Wii Fit.

Re:Entertain by surprising?

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

That's laughable, considering their penchant for pumping out a Mario, Metroid, and Zelda game with every platform. They've got this innovative hardware, and all they've done is changed it so instead of pressing A to swing your sword, you flick your wrist.

Wow. You'd think PS3 owners wouldn't have such poor vision.

Re:Entertain by surprising?

[i.of.the.storm]

If they changed the treasure chest sound in the next Zelda I would hunt you down and kill you with a life-sized replica Master Sword. OK, maybe not, but a lot of the appeal of games like Zelda is nostalgia factor, which I will admit affects me a lot too. Zelda games also have a lot of polish, and I especially enjoyed the music in Twilight Princess and WindWaker. I think the reason the controls were basically mappings of buttons to gestures in TP is because it was originally a Gamecube game and they just ported it to have a decent game for launch.

Re:Entertain by surprising?

[LordVader717]

Go and play more than one game, and them come back.

Re:Entertain by surprising?

[meringuoid]

You know what would actually be surprising? Opening a treasure chest in the next Zelda game and not having it pause to play the "da da da da da da da da" soundbyte.

That's the one that plays when you discover a secret. Opening a treasure chest is 'da da da daaaaaaaah'.

wii compaired to other games

[mcfatboy93]

i guess if Nintendo goes back to the origional idea fo sitting in front of a screen with a joystick and a few buttons then people will look at it like the wii was just and expiriment and was too diffrent for them to do something with.

A Wii Surprise

[93 Escort Wagon]

Right now, the "surprise" I'd most like to see coming from Nintendo is a way to expand the Wii's system storage past 512MB. Especially with the Game Cube and WiiWare titles that are available - it just doesn't take a whole lot to fill up your system.

Re:A Wii Surprise

[Anonymous Coward]

Especially with the Game Cube

What? How is playing a game off of a miniature DVD and saving to an external memory card going to fill up your system?

Re:A Wii Surprise

[ShadowRangerRIT]

He probably mean N64. They take a lot more memory than the SNES and earlier games.

Re:A Wii Surprise

[93 Escort Wagon]

He probably mean N64. They take a lot more memory than the SNES and earlier games.

You're right - I was thinking about the N64 games, not the Game Cube games. Sorry about that.

Re:A Wii Surprise

[tepples]

the "surprise" I'd most like to see coming from Nintendo is a way to expand the Wii's system storage past 512MB. Especially with the Game Cube and WiiWare titles that are available

You can re-download already purchased channels for 0 Wii Points, you know.

Re:A Wii Surprise

[93 Escort Wagon]

You can re-download already purchased channels for 0 Wii Points, you know.

Yes, I know - and I've done this in the past. But it's still annoying if you have to do that. Especially since Nintendo's servers occasionally are unavailable.

Re:A Wii Surprise

[tepples]

But it's still annoying if you have to [redownload channels].

I seem to remember having the ability to move channels to an SD card. Or do newer channels (not their save files) carry the no-copy bit?

Head tracking

[Jessified]

I really liked the head tracking demonstration. It would be really cool if Nintendo made some games that incorporated head tracking. In the demo, the guy said that head tracking would only work for that individuals perspective (the person playing), but in FPS' the screen is split anyways when in multiplayer mode, so you could have different head tracking for the individual players. I bet that set up would really sell.

Re:Head tracking

[cheater512]

Problem with head tracking is you need to move your head, but the screen stays put.

Re:Head tracking

[Ambiguous Puzuma]

Head tracking in this case is referring primarily to position rather than orientation. You can move your head quite a bit while looking at the same location (from different angles).
It doesn't take a whole lot of movement to get some useful depth information from a single eye. The same concept should apply to video on a flat screen.
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2005/10/051007100639.htm

Re:Head tracking

[LordVader717]

Haead tracking isn't intended for a fixed perspective like in an FPS.
Head tracking is meant to give you projection of a model suited to your position. Think of it as more of a hologram where you can see a model just behind the screen.

On a FPS though, you're looking in the direction of the character you play.

Re:Head tracking

[Jessified]

But imagine, say you are playing halo, maybe instead of having the two joysticks (one to look, one to strafe), the looking control is coupled to your head tracking device. So then the natural temptation to move your head to see around something actually has meaning. Even if it wouldn't work for an FPS, I'm sure there could be other possibilities.

Re:Head tracking

[Anonymous Coward]

I have used the wiimote to implement head tracking for a school project. Although the videos on youtube give the impression that the headtracked scene appears to be truly 3 dimensional, in reality it is a bit disappointing. When you move your head the perspective changes to match your point of view but there is no illusion of depth as experienced in the youtube demonstration. This has to do with the fact that you perceive the monitor in 3 dimensions but the image on screen in 2D (you see the same image with both eyes). Only when you close one eye the you'll get the illusion of depth as seen in the video.

So the only benefit in using headtracking is perhaps to look around corners. For an immersive 3D experience you have to wear an eye-patch or be a cyclops ;)

Re:Head tracking

[SparkleMotion88]

I think a FPS would work great with *eye* tracking. If you look at something at the edge of the screen, the screen centers on the thing you were looking at. Of course, you would still need to aim with some sort of controller (e.g. light gun), and you would need some way to disable the eye tracking while aiming (e.g. button on light gun).

Re:Head tracking

[Jessified]

Actually yea now that I think about it, it would be weird, because as you moved you head, you would be looking away from the TV. But maybe there is some sort of way, who knows. Wishful thinking, maybe.

Wii controllers and future consoles

[Dracos]

The Wiimote and nunchuck (as well as the other Wii controller accessories) are the biggest innovation in console user interface since 1985, when the NES introduced the horizontal controller form factor that has dominated consoles since then. Nintendo would be making a huge mistake if they went backwards on controller design.

Re:Wii controllers and future consoles

[Anonymous Coward]

Funny, considering that both gamepads and motion sensing controls existed LONG before Nintendo ever did them.

Do you also think that Apple created the mouse?

Make it better. It's a winner

[dinther]

The WII controller has great ideas in it but it can be made much better.

Currently the accelerometers don't deliver the level of control that would allow the user to wield a "light sabre".

The controller needs to know it's orientation better.

Add position sensing so that controller location itself is an input parameter

Implement this stuff properly http://nz.youtube.com/watch?v=ZBdtPz2V_vY

Add a microphone to the controller as the mic in the DS proved to have some brilliant uses. (Blow in the mic to inflate balloons is genius)

Add pulse feedback (A magnetic plunger) for strike or fire recoil

Overall, input accuracy will be a key element to make the controller really useful in gaming.

Re:Make it better. It's a winner

[PitaBred]

You mean something like this?

http://gadgets.boingboing.net/2008/07/16/nintendo-motionplus.html

Re:Make it better. It's a winner

[nEoN nOoDlE]

They're releasing the motion plus add on to make the controller sensors better already.

Meh.

[FatSean]

Games on PS3 and XBox 360 are the same old same old shit. FPS with a thumb controller? Did we lose a war or something?! Wii is interesting enough to get me back into console gaming from PC games, so I plan to get one.

Re:Meh.

[BlindFate]

This is EXACTLY how I feel, and is why I bought my Wii. There's a lot of shovelware, but there are a lot of very good titles out as well.

Re:Meh.

[malefic]

Exactly the same thing I found. I can't stand thumb controllers for most games, so if it's a FPS I'll play it on my computer. Besides which, the Wii is a great party console. I realize the stereotype of Slashdot is that a good portion are sitting alone in their parent's basement anyway, so maybe they don't care, but you get a group of people over, and people will play the Wii, and will play games besides Guitar Hero and Rock Band (about the only 2 party games that actually exist for the other consoles), whereas the only people you'll see playing the 360 or PS3 will be hardcore gamers.

Re:Meh.

[DrGamez]

This is what I felt but looking back on the past I realized I've used my Wii less and less, to hardly ever now. That beautiful initial "FUN" the thing screams wears off quite quickly. You soon find out you're just playing the same old games in a slightly clunky way (not always clunky!). Then you realize FPS on a thumbstick might be more fun until we can get the Wii technology to catch up.

Re:Meh.

[scubamage]

I have actually had the exact opposite experience. We regularly have groups of friends over, and I've found that the number of party oriented games seems to draw people to the system much more than the other systems - the the point where I sold my 360 and kept the Wii. People would watch the 360 for the eyecandy, but when they realized that there's not much more you can do beyond playing with two people, they get bored. There's something fun about watching other people flail around. It says a lot when the tech demo for the game, wii sports, is still everyone's favorite game to play when they come over for beer and cocktails.

Re:Meh.

[coolsnowmen]

...Wii is interesting enough...so I plan to get one.

The wii was launched on September 14, 2006. That is over 2 years ago. WTF are you waiting for?!

Re:Meh.

[dougisfunny]

All the cool kids to say its ok?

Re:Meh.

[Clockwork Apple]

Beer AND cocktails AND people flailing around? Beer and flailing, ok. Cocktails and flailing, ok. Beer and cocktails and trying not to move around too much, ok if you must. But all three together is just asking for trouble.

Your house must smell like puke a lot of the time.

C.

Re:Meh.

[gallwapa]

By September, you mean November 19th?

Re:Meh.

[coolsnowmen]

Oh sorry, I read the launch info quickly. The launch date was announced in sept. to be November. My point still stands.

Re:Meh.

[Anonymous Coward]

I'm guessing you come from the upper Midwest, where a night of drinking in moderation is about as rare as a thin woman. Some of us know what it means to be able to "hold you alcohol" thank you very much.

Re:Meh.

[scubamage]

In some places (at least in the US) there are still shortages of Wii Systems, so a lot of people can't just walk in to a store and buy them. This is in part because Nintendo has decided to market to the UK over the US because of the current economic climate, as discussed in a previous slashdot article.

Re:Meh.

[coolsnowmen]

True, but still a minor point. I understand that perhaps on black friday there were shortages.

But, if you have been looking for a wii for the last year (after the first big shortage), and can't find one then you are:
refusing to pay list price for it,
or live in smalltown without the internet,
or mentally or physically deficient in some way.

Re:Meh.

[Clockwork Apple]

Oh, you just hold it. My bad. Around here we drink it when it is served.

C.

Re:Meh.

[tepples]

if you have been looking for a wii for the last year (after the first big shortage), and can't find one then you are:
refusing to pay list price for it

$250 list price for it, or $550 list price for it plus several titles that I may not want?

or live in smalltown without the internet

I've seen "not available online -- check stores" for the Wii console itself and high prices for bundles.

Re:Meh.

[feepness]

It says a lot when the tech demo for the game, wii sports, is still everyone's favorite game to play when they come over for beer and cocktails.

Yes, volumes.

Here's hoping

[Xs1t0ry]

I hope that whatever the decision they come to about the future of Nintendo consoles that it will take into account gameplay instead of novelty. The Wii is great but it's controllers are a huge leap from the norm and significantly changes the gaming experience - for the worse. Putting novelties like wii sports, etc. aside, the Wii is missing out on a lot of "normal" titles that are very good simply because of its interface. Maybe they can scale it back a bit on the next attempt. It kinda reminds me of pretentious modern art or music... people sacrifice substance in order to "do something original." Of course that's a bit of an exaggeration.

Some kind of middle ground would be optimal.

Re:Here's hoping

[99BottlesOfBeerInMyF]

The Wii is great but it's controllers are a huge leap from the norm and significantly changes the gaming experience - for the worse. Putting novelties like wii sports, etc. aside, the Wii is missing out on a lot of "normal" titles that are very good simply because of its interface.

I disagree. I think you can use the Wii to play normal titles, but they don't sell well because hardcore gamers buy them for other consoles with faster graphics and casual gamers (the Wii stonghold) are more interested in games with smaller learning curves for the gameplay. The exceptions to this are titles with large learning curves and novel gameplay made possible by Wii controllers, but which can't be easily ported to other consoles because of their limited controllers.

Games designed to work across many consoles or primarily for other consoles will never do well on the Wii because they come across as bad ports and don't have the fun of a game designed to work really well with Wii consoles. The same was true for NES games back in the day when people tried to use them with joysticks or to port joystick games to the NES.

Some kind of middle ground would be optimal.

I don't see this happening. Game companies that write for the Wii from the ground up and have good gameplay with those controllers do fine. Game companies that target all the consoles will never do very well on the Wii. They might make enough to make the port profitable, but they will always be eclipsed by "native" titles.

Re:Here's hoping

[Anonymous Coward]

The Wii controller is excellant, as long as the game doesn't rely too much on the motion controls. I love that my hands don't have to be kept in rigid position next to each other, and the pointer works great and is extremely useful. Most of the uses of motion control are a little loose and can be frustrating.

Just add a few more buttons (or move +/-/1/2 into better positions) and I'll be even happier

Mod parent funny!

[cromar]

I love Nintendo, but come on. That was funny.

A suggestion

[baxissimo]

...or do they bring a completely different input device to the table?

I suggest they bring a completely different input device that is a table! Now that's innovation.

As a hardcore gamer...

[7Prime]

There is one nitch not being filled: Wii motion controller innovation applied to indepth games.

I consider myself a hardcore gamer, in the sense that I like huge, lengthy epic games that take skill and dedication. I'm not an FPS or gore hound, but I fit into the "hardcore" category nevertheless. I love the Wii's control systems, the attention to innovation, and I'd like to see that applied to more indepth games. Microsoft and Sony aren't offering it, and neither is Nintendo. Why do I have to choose either gameplay innovation or involving games, but not games that offer both? The two aren't mutually exclusive, and I'm sure that a large percentage of hardcore gamers would be more than happy to get their hands on some unique interface innovations.

Where are the point-and-click adventures? Where are the RPGs that use motion sensing and light-gun to add to their gameplay? Lost Winds really demonstrated to me that you can really use the Wiis control system for more creative, and involving types of games (even if the current WiiWare version is just a prologue). Let's get some more of that, or Okami, or epic RPGs... because we're not going to see them on the 360 or PS3 with those kinds of innovations.

So in closing, no... separating the types of games filled by the Wii, 360 and PS3 doesn't satisfy everyone, because it means you can't mix-and-match the abilities of the different units. The Wii has the potential to completely satisfy me with its current capabilities (honestly, I've had an HDTV for almost 2 years now, and I still don't think it makes one shit of difference, and I'm a video producer), I'd just like to see it expand into more involving areas.

Re:As a hardcore gamer...

[Siener]

Where are the point-and-click adventures?

Have you tried Strong Bad's Cool Game for Attractive People, Zack & Wiki and Sam & Max? (OK, Sam & Max is not a Wii original, but the Wii version is great)

In general I agree with your post. IMO the biggest problem was that 3rd party developers were caught napping. No-one expected the Wii's runaway success. Things are slowly changing though. There are more and more innovative, quality games coming out that were written from the ground up with the Wii's control's in mind rather than crappy ports that are basically PS2 versions of the game with motion control gimmicks added.

The days of the Wii being just for casual games and Nintendo staples like Mario and Zelda are coming to an end. One example of an upcoming Wii game that is both innovative, stylish and that is definitely not "just for kids" is MadWorld. Definitely not the kind of thing you would historcally associate with a Nintendo platform.

However, like you I'm still waiting for quality RPG on the Wii. I also think you would be able to make good RTS's (a genre that consoles have really been lacking in) using the Wiimote

Re:As a hardcore gamer...

[steelfood]

It's a paradigm issue. Developers who do the type of games that fall into the "hardcore" category are too used to designing for regular button controllers. Push a button to get this to happen. Point and click. D-pads.

The Wii's controller not only changes control design, but it also changes the kind of activities games can offer. Advances in both of these areas will take time. Baby steps. Integration of game and control design to the point where it will satisfy a hardcore gamer can only happen afterward both sides have become mature. Unless of course, some genius at the right place and the right time comes along to accelerate the process. But considering the barriers to entry, I'm very doubtful we'll see more than minor advances at a time.

Re:As a hardcore gamer...

[tepples]

Where are the point-and-click adventures?

Did you try Zack and Wiki? What about ScummVM in Homebrew Browser?

Re:Deja Vu All Over Again

[Sparton]

They will find something new, no doubt. Just a matter of how long of a gap between Wii and the new generation console.

Actually, I'm fairly certain that Nintendo will come out with a new console fairly soon (1-2 years from now), refining what they've already done and just trying to add more interesting bits to it (maybe better voice output or something). The main reason I would guess at is stopping themselves from losing so many port opportunities that exist in the 360/PS3 realm because their system can't handle anything close to what is needed.

Game Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

What in the hell is Nintendo thinking? Wii Music isn't really a game, and they approve of some personal cooking training thing for the Nintendo DS that isn't not a game either.

Plus, they need to step it up a notch and start approving some games higher than a T rating.

Re:Game Console?

[Anonymous Coward]

What the hell makes you think they don't approve M rated games? If you search on the esrb's site for m rated Wii games, you get 21 results.

Rabidly defending the Wii?

[Chuck Chunder]

You seem to be the one having a rabid reaction.

Seems to me he was specifically talking about Wii Music and was giving us an idea about how it works.

As someone doesn't know anything about it that hasn't been on a TV advert (ie not much) I found it rather interesting. I'm not exactly going to rush out and buy it but it's interesting to know there is some depth there.

minor nitpick

[petermgreen]

Go in a store and look at the prices of the consoles.
I CBA going to a physicial store to check but I imagine a major online store will be pretty representive (especially the UK i've picked since it is the online arm of a major high street game retailer)

game.co.uk (uk)
xbox 360 (arcade with SEGA Superstars Tennis and PGR 4 bundled): £128.49
wii (with sonic unleashed and 1GB SD card bundled) : £198.49
PS3 (80GB Console with LittleBigPlanet + FIFA 09): £293.61

newegg.com (us)
xbox 360 (arcade with nothing bundled): $199.99
wii (with wii play, quantum of solace, smackdown vs raw and super mario galaxy): $426.95 (they refuse to sell the wii seperately despite quoting a price of $249 for it)
PS3 (with nothing bundled): $399.99

Looks to me like on both those retailers (which I believe are major retailers on thier corresponding side of the pond) the xbox 360 is cheapest, the wii in the middle and the PS3 is most expensive.

Of course that is probablly more of a sign of MS being desperate than anything to do with the actual cost of the consoles.

Re: A console for the disabled ?

[trdrstv]

Give me another company that comes up with a new platform and controller paradigm. Develop a system for people with disabilities. What should happen is more competition and more innovation -- better for everyone in the long run.

Actually that is what Nintendo did. It's the only system that can be (reasonably) played 1 handed (Think WiiSports Tennis, or Tiger Woods Golf) or even without Arms (Wii Fit / DDR) Hell, if someone were ambitious enough they could make a video game without the video... The Wii has a wireless 1 handed controller (with rumble) and Dolby Prologic surround sound so you could conceivably make a "video game" for the blind.

They really need to improve the console's power

[HalAtWork]

Even if graphics don't matter, CPU power matters for stronger AI, and better physics. Look at what LittleBigPlanet is able to do with physics alone. A higher resolution would help to show more details on the screen which would make a difference on the Wii, especially if you are designing games where you have to target objects at a distance, or a game where lighting and shadows play a role in the gameplay, for example. Even Katamari doesn't have the most complex looking graphics on the system, but there are a lot of objects and areas on the screen and in memory at the same time. More memory would allow for more complex scenes and objects, and would also be required for more complex AI and physics. It's not all about 'teh shiny'.

Incredibly cheap synthesizers owned by home users

[tepples]

I take it you, and this reviewer do not know what MIDI is. MIDI is only a protocol for describing musical events. It has no sound of its own.

Imagine this scenario: You ship a composition to a home user as a sequence of musical events. The end user uses the synthesizer built into a low-end PC or a game console to render this sequence of musical events into a sound recording for playback. Unfortunately for you, this synthesizer is incredibly cheap, and home users end up associating this incredibly cheap synthesizer with sequences of musical events because it's the only thing they have that is capable of rendering sequences of musical events into sound recordings.

Wii is cheapest in which country?

[tepples]

Go in a store and look at the prices of the consoles.

I looked in Fort Wayne, Indiana, USA:

• Xbox 360 Arcade with 256 MB internal memory unit: $199
• Wii with 512 MB internal memory unit: sold out in retail stores; $305.00 on an online trading site

You will see that the Wii is the cheapest by a good margin

In what country?

Xbox has Community Games

[tepples]

Tell me, what was the innovation with the Xbox 360 exactly? Higher resolution textures?

Xbox 360's innovation compared to the other consoles is a $1600 complete devkit ($700 Windows PC, $400 Xbox 360 Elite, and $100/yr XNA Creators Club subscription for five-year life of console) available to anyone with a high-speed Internet connection, not just companies with a prior published PC title that lease their own office space.

Re:Xbox has Community Games

[vux984]

Xbox 360's innovation compared to the other consoles is a $1600 complete devkit ($700 Windows PC, $400 Xbox 360 Elite, and $100/yr XNA Creators Club subscription for five-year life of console) available to anyone with a high-speed Internet connection, not just companies with a prior published PC title that lease their own office space.

Congratulations, Microsoft just innovated the Commodore VIC-20

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Vic-20_ad.jpg

"Why buy just a video game? For under $300 get the commodore VIC-20, the wonder computer of the 1980s."

"Sure it plays the great games kids love. But the VIC-20 can also improve learning skills. In fact, it uses the same computer language taught in schools on the Commodore PET"

=facepalm=

Nintendo On

[tepples]

Problem with head tracking is you need to move your head, but the screen stays put.

That's why Nintendo On, the rumored Wii accessory from that six-minute video we all saw before E3, has the screen on a head-mounted unit.

Look at the Super NES

[default luser]

The Super NES made MIDI sound fantastic! The sound chip they used allowed samples to be used, and allowed for filtering features like reverb, to make the music more life-like.

Today's consoles have MIDI chipsets that put the SNES to shame! The Wii and Gamecube make use of Midi for all sorts of musical soundtracks - even the music in Twilight Princess is entirelly MIDI with quality samples and high-resolution DSP effects.

If the MIDI tracks in this game sound like crap, it's not the fault of the hardware; it's the fault of the writers, who didn't take advantage of the features available. The fact is, when done correclty, MIDI sounds great!