Automated Scripts Overrun eBay Holiday Contest

turnkeylinux writes "TechCrunch is reporting that eBay is under fire from users because of a holiday giveaway contest gone awry. On Tuesday Nov. 25, eBay announced its $1 Holiday Doorbusters deals promotion, giving away 100 gifts on a daily basis, all for a $1 fixed price. The gifts ranged from jewelry, clothing, digital cameras, and GPS devices to a brand-new Chevrolet Corvette. The only catch is that there's no announcement on when these items are released or in which category they will be. But cheaters came up with a clever way of winning deals on an automated basis by continuously running scripts to bid on items for $1."

Comments

Time to offload some crap

[hansamurai]

Are these scripts still running. Seems like it's time to list a ton of stuff for a buck that wouldn't even sell at a garage sale. I wonder if they check the shipping price... could really nail them then.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[TheRealMindChild]

Sure, in a perfect ebay where people weren't unscrupulous, this might work. But you have to figure the case is more like, they opened a new account just for this bot (or maybe stole someone elses account), just in case they get caught, their "real" accounts won't get terminated. After their bot runs, they pick and choose what they want. They let the rest go, simply not paying for it.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[theaveng]

You read my mind. I have a few items left-over from last Christmas that didn't sell even when marked down to 0.01 so maybe they'll sell now this year to one of these script-kiddies.

DRAWBACK: A lot of these script-kiddies are probably deadbeat non-payers as well. Surely they are not going to buy 10,000 items that they won last week for a dollar each. Instead they'll just refuse to pay and leave sellers to eat the losses in Ebay fees.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[theaveng]

P.S.

And of course with Ebay's "brilliant" idea to not let sellers give buyers negative feedback, there's no way for us to warn other sellers about these deadbeat non-paying bidders. Yippee.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[nizo]

Your life won't be complete until you augment your iPhone with a new postcard! Bidding starts at only $1!!

Re:Time to offload some crap

[xgr3gx]

Oooh! Scam the scammers!
Sell a bunch of worthless crap for $1 and charge $8 shipping.
Assuming you can get the script to automatically pay with paypal, I'll be selling all of the pennies in my change jar for $9 each!

Re:Time to offload some crap

[Blimey85]

Use a proxy? If you are sophisticated enough to write a bot for this sort of thing, you surely know about using proxies and most likely have some at your disposal. Or maybe your mom hates you and won't let you get broadband to the basement so you are still on dial-up. Each time you dial in, you get a different ip address. But then again, how are you possibly running a bot that needs to make a lot of connections on dial-up? lol

Re:Time to offload some crap

[tlhIngan]

Really? You can't leave negative feedback for buyers?

What is the point of feedback?

Because a good chunk of sellers won't leave feedback until the buyers leave them positive feedback. It became a tit-for-tat system, where sellers could get 100% feedback ratings because buyers who got scammed refused to leave neutral or negative feedback. There were even lawsuits threatened (and maybe even launched) because sellers took negative feedback as libel.

Buyers have few recourses if scammed by a bad seller. Sellers who have a non-paying bidder though, should file a complaint with eBay (who is supposed to refund all fees due, and mark the buyer, I don't know if this happens).

Feedback is supposed to rate the trustworthiness of buyers and (especially) sellers. It's a bit more important for a seller because buyers use that to determine if they should bid since once payment is sent, recourse is limited. Pretty much the worst that can happen for a seller who has a bad buyer is they don't pay. (Of course, there is the issue with sellers claiming they didn't receive it or it was damaged, which is why there's tracking information and insurance, all of which a seller can mandate).

I will agree though that eBay's system is horribly screwed up (as a buyer). Some sellers have gone to use the (neg) in the comments to mean negative feedback. A system where feedback is kept hidden until both parties have sent it in (keeping tit-for-tat at bay) would work better.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[Mister Whirly]

Too expensive. I plan on selling individual toothpicks for $1 - and saying "winner must pick up item in person". I like a profit of $1 per item.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[Poruchik]

As a seller, now I have no recourse against a bad buyer. Ebay does not refund ALL fees, just the final value fee, which is a percentage of the final price that the buyer pays. I lose the insertion fee (which would be refunded if an item is relisted, but not for multiple item auctions) and any and all listing upgrade fees that are substantial. So in essense, it is GOOD for Ebay to have non paying buyers, as they get double the fees if the item has to be relisted.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[Anonymous Coward]

The perfect compromise would be that sellers CAN leave feedback, but they must leave feedback BEFORE the buyer can. Once I give a seller my money, they have everything they need to give me feedback, and they know everything that they and other sellers need to know about me, that I pay on time. I should feel free to leave any feedback I feel appropriate for a seller without worrying that they will leave me negative retaliatory feedback.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[theaveng]

So now we have a solution where buyers can blackmail sellers with comments like, "Give me free shipping or I'll leave a negative on your account," and of course ebay won't do anything to stop the buyers from this blackmail.

>>>Buyers have few recourses if scammed by a bad seller.

Bullshit. I'm a buyer and I have LOTS of recourse for protecting myself:
- threaten to neg seller if he does not do the right thing (not very effective)
- file paypal complaint (you almost always win)
- file credit card chargeback (you win 100%)
- court lawsuit

The real problem is: Who protects the sellers? I had a buyer return an EMPTY envelope to me, and then she filed a credit chargeback to reverse $80 out of my account while she kept the PSP handheld. There was nothing I could do to stop this scam, or any future scams. It's the buyers who are best-protected, and the sellers who are most vulnerable.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[bev_tech_rob]

Some people are already doing that as a way of revenge against the scripters.....a woman was selling pictures of her cat for $1 each by putting DOOR BUSTERS in the picture description.....sold quite a few according to one article.....nice.....

Re:Time to offload some crap

[bev_tech_rob]

Here is a quote from the MSNBC article about the same issue...pretty funny :P

"This is picture I took of my cat with my Cannon Powershot Camera after she overheard that people where using scripting to purchase HOLIDAY DOORBUSTERS items on eBay. Not responsible for poor scripting techniques."

Re:Time to offload some crap

[sukotto]

Why waste any more of your time? Donate anything reasonably nice to the Salvation Army or Goodwill or Freecycle and throw the rest away.

Free yourself from your "stuff"

Give up on those "penny here, dollar there" items and go spend the time you save doing something fun.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[BlueNoteMKVI]

I disagree. I sold some used motorcycle parts a few years ago, clearly stating in the auction that the parts were used and taking very close-up detailed pictures of the parts. Despite that, one buyer left me negative feedback because the item was "scratched." I can think of a dozen other hypothetical situations where I would want to leave negative feedback for a buyer, most involving the buyer not reading the auction or trying to scam a refund after the fact for some BS reason. If a customer is consistently an idiot then he deserves a bad rating so sellers can stay away from him. In the past, eBay would threaten to disable accounts with very poor feedback (I don't know if they ever did). That could save a lot of people a lot of grief.

That's not to say that there aren't dishonest sellers out there. Those sellers deserve negative feedback. Regardless, without any accountability for the buyer, sellers can easily get screwed over.

Re:Time to offload some crap

[rfunches]

Based on that, they should allow sellers and buyers to submit feedback into a private "holding area." Sellers have 14 days to post feedback, and buyers have 30 days to post feedback, leaving enough time for longer payment methods (mailed payment, or waiting for a check to clear) and longer shipping times. If feedback is received from both sides before 14 days, it is released and posted to the accounts immediately; otherwise, any feedback received within the two time frames is released after 30 days. Until one of those two conditions are met, the feedback stays hidden and doesn't appear on a user's account. And to prevent non-paying bidders from having 30 days to hide their status, allow the seller's feedback to post immediately if eBay declares a user is NPB.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[orthancstone]

When griefing gets boring in online games, take it to the next best place: Ebay!

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[jandrese]

Isn't this the foundation of Ebay?

eBay

[olddotter]

eBay needs help. They have alienated there sellers, gone to supporting "stores" more than hobby/small-time sellers, and they take almost 10% of sells.

Now they show they can't think through the obvious implications of a badly designed promotion (scam).

Really ebay would do much better to cut their fees and support the mom and pops in this economic environment. I think the time is ripe for competition in the on-line auction market. http://poorbenjamin.blogspot.com/2008/08/for-jerry-yang-to-ponder.html

Re:eBay

[cwAllenPoole]

s/eBay/Microsoft/ The basic problem though is monopoly. Once an organization reaches critical mass, it has the ability to simply dwarf the competition. Look at how long it has taken to get Firefox to reach its current position, and alternate OS's still haven't managed to even dent the mega-corps. Fortunately things are never quite that bad on the internet, but the fundamental issues are the same.

Re:eBay

[timholman]

eBay needs help. They have alienated there sellers, gone to supporting "stores" more than hobby/small-time sellers, and they take almost 10% of sells.

The problem is that eBay quit being an auction site a long time ago, and now has become the world's biggest flea market. There's nothing necessarily wrong with that; I often will buy some inexpensive item from a "Buy It Now" power seller, but I gave up on actually bidding for items a long time ago. Between the scammers and the snipers, it's not worth the hassle. The power sellers are now eBay's true customer base, and that's who they cater to.

Nowadays I find that Craigslist typically provides a better selection of high-end merchandise, plus you deal with local sellers and buyers without the overhead. The real problem, I think, is that the online auction business model is slowly becoming obsolete - otherwise, you'd see legitimate competitors taking over the market segment that eBay has turned its back on.

Re:eBay

[Blimey85]

It depends on what you are offering. Google seems to be quite good at breaking into existing markets. I've used Gmail for a long time now and most people I know also use it. Even people who before handled email themselves have switched to Gmail. I did just for the spam filtering because no matter how many hours I spent working on it, I could never get filters setup just right on my own servers. A quick signup with Google and a few minutes changing dns and now email for my domains runs through Gmail. I can still access it with whatever program and my phone, plus I have a nice reliable web interface that I didn't have when I did my own email. Yahoo and Hotmail used to dominate and I'm sure they probably still have the majority of the market, either one, but Gmail has grown by leaps and bounds and continues to get larger.

And then there is Google itself. It dominates and has for years.

The iPod and iPhone are two prime examples of taking over markets. If I read the article correctly a week or so ago, the iPhone either has or is about to pass up Blackberry for sales.

What would it take to become larger than eBay? I dunno. Amazon used to have auctions, and maybe they still do, but the couple of times I visited years ago the place was dead. The hot action was on eBay. If a behemoth like Amazon can't pull it off... then again, eBay has continued to piss people off. But so has PayPal, for a lot longer and they are still going strong. Maybe you can treat your customers like shite and get away with it because you are just so large.

Now _this_ is unfair

[Andr T.]

From TFA:

Meanwhile, bot scripts are being offered on RentACoder for $20 and even free of charge here and there.

How can I sell my scripts if there is someone giving them out for free? This is outrageous!

Re:Now _this_ is unfair

[MiniMike]

Sell them for $1. You'll be amazed how many you can sell at that exact price...

Cheaters?

[forand]

I don't see how making a script of this sort is cheating. If they don't want to allow scripting that is their problem to try and stop but anyone with the knowhow will realize that spending 30 min writing a script is much better then spending 24 hrs/day hitting refresh on the same search.

Re:Cheaters?

[LandDolphin]

How is using a script similar to robbing a bank? One is using a tool to make using a service easier, and the other involves the theft of goods (Money). Completely unrelated. If I could mod you down (Overrated), I would have.

Re:Cheaters?

[brian0918]

The two are similar in no way, and sticking them next to eachother in the same post does nothing to make them similar. One is a violation of the rights of another - taking their property without their permission. The other, at best, may be a violation of some end user agreement, resulting in the termination of the user's account, but no rights are being violated. eBay is selling the stuff for $1, and people found a way to find the stuff and buy it. The transaction is made with both parties acting voluntarily. Where's the problem?

Re:Cheaters?

[networkconsultant]

They made the "special" very boring; and repetitive, I cannot remember where I read it but last time I checked any good sysadmin loved to automate the boring and repetitive.

Re:Cheaters?

[sexconker]

You're right, the problem is the argument.
Your argument sucks.

Too bad.

[Jeheto]

It seems Ebay's advertising CEO's have trumped it's techinicians, as is inevitable in all companies.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[Archangel Michael]

World is full of Assholes ... And Assholes use the law to continue to be assholes.

Everyone knows an asshole. You know, the guy/gal who sits on the fence of the law, skirting around the edges, being an asshole and taking every advantage to be one.

We all know we want to punch the asshole in the face, because they definitely deserve it, but we also know that the Asshole will sue and so we don't.

We're in the age of the "legal asshole", the asshole that never breaks any law, but abuses the gray areas simply because they can.

Common theme

[thecalster]

I've seen this done on a few other websites as well... wowhead.com (World of Warcraft db) ran a contest where you had to find where 5 different pictures were located on the site. It wasn't the best contest as the name of the file name was the exact same that they used for the caption as the filename for the page. So what people ended up doing was caching the whole site and just doing a quick search for where file name *******.jpg was located at.

eBay is not news

[zoomshorts]

The first year it was in business, it was fun and useful.
Now it is so-called "power sellers". Just a bunch of merchants
without a brick and mortar presence.

Let it die the death it deserves and stop posting eBay related
CRAP.

How a python script stole Christmas!

[vakond1]

me@localhost:$ python grinch.py -bid_a_buck_on_ebay

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[kiwimate]

How is this ripping off eBay? They were going to sell this item at $1 anyway. If anyone's being ripped off, it's the other eBay users who now realistically have zero chance (as opposed to a miniscule chance) of getting lucky and scoring a nice holiday bonus.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[DRue]

/me hurridly begins posting his "ebook" on ebay for $1 each.

(re)captcha?

[Devil's BSD]

they just couldput in a recaptcha... prevent bot bidding and help digitize books... it's win-win!

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[jhRisk]

More assholes need to get fucked.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[bberens]

By using that logic no company should ever advertise because it raises the base cost of doing business... which is bad for their customers. The reality is that advertising increases market share which generally lowers the per transaction cost and saves customers money. If we all thought your way there'd be no such thing as marketing. Wait.. maybe you're on to something...

They Tried (but mostly failed)

[Anonymous Coward]

Ebay tried to make things harder for the scripters as time went on. The first few days, the listings were simply text, easily searched by bots (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270311657856&ru). They then shifted over to making the entire description an image (http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270313225226&ru).

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[TheLink]

Maybe it's time to sell my set of foldable[1] air guitars. They're still in mint condition since I rarely play them.

[1] Folds up and fits nicely in an envelope. Cool eh?

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[paeanblack]

If the automated scripts are just placing a $1 bid on everything they find, it sounds like a good time to ebay the contents of my penny jar...individually.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[Technician]

If the automated scripts are just placing a $1 bid on everything they find, it sounds like a good time to ebay the contents of my penny jar...individually.

I was thinking more along the lines of state quarters, plus S&H and insurance. Maybe the next sale will be a money maker as the script kiddies find their liability for their purchases mount. If they relesed quarters at 1500 items to each sale item, it would kill the profitability of the scripts and the problem would go away.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[Archangel Michael]

In many places that is still against the law, even if you could get the Asshole to agree to such an invasion. Not getting permission first is definitely a bad idea, and illegal in most jurisdictions.

ON an asside note, most bad laws are written because some Asshole did something that wasn't against the law. So they write a law to make it illegal so we can "legally" punch them in the face (ie jail or fine).

You'll see this everytime someone says ... "There ought to be a law". No, there shouldn't be a law, we should be allowed to punch assholes for being assholes.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[coopaq]

Buyers have no incentive to pay anymore, but you always pay to list the item.

Feedback has been removed so shill bidding is easy.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[Rary]

It's not just assholes that the world is full of.

See, there's three kinds of people: dicks, pussies, and assholes. Pussies think everyone can get along, and dicks just want to fuck all the time without thinking it through. But then you got your assholes, Chuck. And all the assholes want is to shit all over everything! So, pussies may get mad at dicks once in a while, because pussies get fucked by dicks. But dicks also fuck assholes, Chuck. And if they didn't fuck the assholes, you know what you'd get? You'd get your dick and your pussy all covered in shit!

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[treeves]

"The reality is that advertising ... saves customers money."

Amazing, that must be why pharmaceuticals are so inexpensive.

Increased market share reduces cost to the consumer? Where is the maximum on the curve, because clearly a perfect monopoly does not result in the lowest cost to the consumer, since it can charge whatever it wants. Your comment got modded funny, but maybe for the wrong reason.

Re:Craigslist

[alienw]

Unless you live in a fucking ghetto, I don't think this concern is justified. It wouldn't be very smart to rob someone right outside your own house, particularly when the victim has your address. As far as burglars: unless you are selling drugs on Craigslist, I really doubt anything you put on there will interest them. Burglars are opportunistic, and will pick a house that looks like an easy target. They won't spend months researching Craigslist.

You need to be a little less paranoid. Not sure what it is with gun nuts, but you guys are very much out of touch with reality.

The internet is full of backup singers.

[Ostracus]

Welcome to my friends list. "legal asshole" meet your consul in the form of "But I'm not hurting anyone" and backup singer "They're a big company. They deserve it". Seen on tour with "I'm not with them but I secretly agree".

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[iamhassi]

"How is this ripping off eBay?"

Well... by cheating on the contest, it's hurting eBay customers, which could be interpreted as "ripping off" eBay, because they may lose money on this.

However these scripts aren't doing anything ebay wasn't already designed to do. Here's the $1 Corvette auction. Says "Holiday Doorbusters" in text in the auction and it's a $1 auction, so anyone with half a brain could search all auction text for "Holiday Doorbusters" and narrow the search to only auctions that are $1. You can do this manually within the search tools provided by eBay, and that functionality on ebay has been available for many years. Dozens of programs existed for the past few years that can automatically search titles and auctions for keywords and limit it to under a certain price. I have one I use that I know has been around since at least 2003, and I'm sure eBay knows these programs exist.

So if anything eBay did this to themselves and encouraged the "cheating" by making it so simple to do. If they really wanted people to search ebay for great deals they should have made the whole page an image, that would have prevented searching at least.

Re:The internet is full of assholes...

[skinnyrake]

The seller is still able to mark an item as not being paid for, which affects a user's eBay rating.