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Free Resources for Windows Perl Development
jamie pointed out an important announcement in the Perl community. Adam Kennedy, known as Alias, developed Strawberry Perl to "make Win32 a truly first class citizen of the Perl platform world." Over the last year, major CPAN modules have used Strawberry Perl to get to releases that work trouble-free on Windows. But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing. Now Alias has worked with Microsoft's Open Source Software Lab to provide for every CPAN author free access to a centrally-hosted virtual machine environment containing every major version of Windows. "More information (and press releases) will follow, the entire program under which this partnership will be run is so new it's only just been given a name, so some of the organisational details will ironed out as we go. But for now, to all the CPAN authors, all I have to add is... Merry Christmas. P.S. Or your appropriate equivalent religious or non-religious event, if any, occurring during the month of December, etc., etc."
So this guy's alias is alias?
so also said as: adam kennedy, alias: alias.
"But the tens of thousands of smaller modules on CPAN are lagging, in many cases because of lack of access to a Windows environment for development and testing."
I was born on a day, but not yesterday. I must admit to not using perl for anything serious in a very long time, but as I recall, many smaller modules in CPAN didn't even work trouble free on an up-to-date linux machine because they were either badly coded or simply didn't run with newer versions of other dependencies. Maybe things have changed, but I doubt access to Windows machines is a real issue for anybody apart from a tiny handful of GNU diehards/blowhards.
Win32 is the windows API. Making perl for .NET will be fun. Thankfully Parrot will rope other people into doing most of it.
Inventions have long since reached their limit, and I see no hope for further development.-- Frontinus, 1st cent. AD
i hate the break it to you but win32 still dominates the landscape, the cpu being 64bit is irrelevant. sounds like you've been duped by the marketing.
If you mod me down, I will become more powerful than you can imagine....
http://tech.slashdot.org/Strawberry
Do you even lift?
These aren't the 'roids you're looking for.
It includes a pre-configured CPAN-shell and compilation tools for c modules.
Installation is a bit screwy on Vista; it does require some manuevering there, but it works off to bat on xp.
I, for one, am quite happy that there are other options that function well besies ActivePerl; never liked it. No longer is one dependant on the proprietary ppm packaging so much! The value of CPAN is better put to use here.
Though, businesses that rely on perl might want to wait before abandoning activeperl; strawberry is relatively new here...
perl is dying http://use.perl.org/~Ovid/journal/38010
Windows is a rat infestation, the ship (our pirate ship -- we don't believe in imaginary property, and the best way to show our disbelief is by plundering it) is being gnawed apart by rats.
But Perl is amazingly useful. It can make your system do ANYTHING, dance like a monkey? It's on CPAN.
The conclusion to my analogy then is that Perl on Windows is like a remote-controlled bionic rat: a step up from the rest of the rats, but still no monkey.
Maybe this link will be a little more useful: http://strawberryperl.com/
Pearls::Swine
Help stamp out iliturcy.
Both of them?
I know what Win32 is. I also know, having written my own abstraction layer for it, that it's a real POS. Thankfully, I haven't had to use it in over a decade, and have no plans to in the future, just like I don't see myself switching back to Windows either at work or at home.
KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick.
Yes, it's impossible to find a 64-bit only CPU for use with Windows.
Fucking impossible.
Mod me down, my New Earth Global Warmingist friends!
Haven't used Win32 in over a decade. Never used MFC because it was total crap - like a lot of people, I ended up having to write my own abstraction classes since OWL wasn't much better.
Windows is dying. It's like GM. Bloated, pointless, only continuing to exist because "it's too big to fail" - in other words, on its' past momentum. Microsoft either has to break completely with the past (and in so doing, break Win32 compatibility), or continue to be the worlds' most popular malware enabler.
Just the right flavor to go with Chocolate Doom!
Adam, you're the freakin' MAN.
I actually didn't know the breadth of what you were arranging but this is just way beyond what I expected!
I will definitely be taking advantage of this... Next time you're in the Boston area, I want to personally buy you a case of your choice of beer.
(yes, I understand fully that this posting means it's "on the record" :D )
I'm done with sigs. Sigs are lame.
Ah.. so this is how Skynet begins.
http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/u32q/benchmark.php?test=all&lang=perl&lang2=ruby
Why is ruby better? For one, it's object orientation isn't an after-thought, and it's actually useful. For another, it makes it easy to produce readable code (in perl, readable code requires hard work.) Just wish we could catch up in the CPAN department.
"He who would learn astronomy, and other recondite arts, let him go elsewhere. " -- John Calvin, commenting on Genesis 1
"...lack of access to a Windows environment..."
Hello? Virtualization?
Sig this!
>> Free Resources for Windows Perl Development
The definitive one: http://python.org/
I see in the list Windows XP and Server 2003 (they're almost the same...), Vista and Server 2008 (they are exactly the same!). Where's Windows 2000? there's quite a large chunk of users left on that platform. Hell, even a few users on Win98 or NT4 still.
I'm not sure your car analogy is apropos. You had a chance of wrenching on an old Buick. Also, back in the day, the impact of a frizbee did not trigger $4k in damage. You never get out of a body shop for less than $4k.
Get thee glass eyes, and, like a scurvy politician, seem to see things thou dost not.--King Lear
I've used ActiveState's ActivePerl on several windows boxes over the years and have had "trouble-free" experiences with it. Granted, some of the more bleeding-edge modules weren't at the latest revs but the mainstream software I used didn't strictly require those either.
Good point - the old "Windows is like a car with the hood welded shut" strikes again! Darned :-)
The frisbee cost is another good point. Open up the wrong email, or surf the wrong site, and you'll spend more to fix the damage than the OS cost in the first place - and that's even if you had "protection", since anti-virus software is just an arms race.
People that hate perl and people that hate windows can *finally* find some common ground!
Honestly, even a shop teacher can count the number of users that care about this on one hand.
I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. So is Windows Embdedded. Windows Server is gaining marketshare.
YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't. In an above post, you compared Microsoft to GM, and declared that they were dying. Yeah, sure, they're dying exactly like GM, except for the fact that they're making money hand over fist, have over $70 billion in assets, and haven't required a government bailout.
I recently updated to Ubuntu 8.10, and discovered that the sleek, fuel-efficient KDE programs I love were ripped out and replaced with hummers. Honestly, Kolourpaint takes up 50% of my cpu drawing a line.
And I do use 32 bit, because my single 2.8 Ghz processor has served me well for three and a half years, and I don't see any reason to upgrade it.
And just to be clear, that 2.8Ghz is more than most cores nowadays, so though I may be stuck in the past, I'd still say that for the most basic of drawing applications, 50% of one of 8 cores is still ridiculous. Buick indeed.
I maintain a few modules on CPAN. Nothing big, I'm the sole author.
In August, I got email from someone complaining that one of these modules doesn't pass its self-tests. After some back and forth, it turns out that it passes on Linux and fails on Windows. They even submitted a patch, but I don't want to integrate it unless I can test it on Windows.
I've got some Windows machines in my house, but I'd have to put together a usable development environment, and it's a hassle, and I've got a day job, and it just hasn't happened in 4 months.
If Alias et. al. can get me access to a Windows environment, this module could get cleaned up a lot sooner.
I sincerely hope so. But until it kicks the bucket, there's software on it which needs to be supported, and improved Windows testing and debugging of current CPAN modules will make the lives of those of us who use those modules on Windows a whole lot easier.
I, for one, welcome our new Perl virus writing overlords.
Perl has been a first class citizen on Win32 starting with the GSAR port back in late 90s, then Perl for Win32 and now ActivePerl.
In fact ActivePerl was more up to date than unix Perl during the late 5.005 and 5.6 because the pumpkin was primarily a Win32 developer.
If you want to find the second class citizens in the Perl world look at OS2, Aix, Hpux, and other strange unixes. I know you want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation you're now working on is misguided. They did a damn fine job.
...IronPerl
I know [M$] want to make Perl better and are working hard on it, but insulting the people who put together the foundation [M$ is] now working on is misguided.
Yes, a decade ago Perl was a 1st class citizen on Win32, but you miss the point. M$ is doing this to *kill* all non-M$ languages on the Win32 platform, including perl. Don't be confused just because they're all smiling and friendly-like about it.
I've never met Vlad, but he must be proud or annoyed to have TrollTalk dedicated to him.
KDE 4.1 makes Vista look like an old Buick
In your eyes. In mine, they both look like the rear end of a dump truck. I choose my UI for how easy it is to work with, not how easy it is to look at.
"Total destruction the only solution" - Bob Marley
Windows Mobile is everywhere.
No
So is Windows Embdedded
No
Most (embedded / server) places that have linux are not advertised as such.
how long until
Whatever other benefits there are, the main beneficiary of porting open source software projects to the Windows platform is Microsoft.
Bear in mind that if there were no Linux, many of the other open source software projects would not have existed.
Microsoft don't even have to embrace and extinguish when the open source projects are doing it for them.
I think someone needs to get their head out of their ass and face reality. Outside the desktop, Windows isn't visible? Really? Windows Mobile is everywhere. ...
Yes, and that someone is ... you! I'm guessing you didn't see the news Friday that Windows Mobile was just passed in market share by ... the iPhone!
http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=iphone+q3+2008+market+share
The problem for fanbois who point to Microsoft's size as a sign of its invincibility is that ... size is not a sign of invincibility.
You're joking, right? Are we talking about the same Windows Mobile that got its doors blown off in the mobile market by OS X on the iPhone in a mere two quarters?
http://blogs.zdnet.com/microsoft/?p=1163
* * * * *
"Time flies like an arrow. Fruit flies like a banana." —Groucho Marx
Windows Mobile is not everywhere, Windows Mobile is on a bridge to nowhere!
The iPhone has more worldwide market after a mere 2 years, WinMo had over a decade headstart, since it was called WinCE or whatever, and is still irrelevant.
Blackberry dominates in NA, Symbian dominates globally, and Android is going to bite into WinMo's market share before anything else!
GENERATION 25: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation.
haven't required a government bailout
"Required." I like it! Keep talking like that, son, and we might have a place for you in the big leagues!
-- Your obedient servants in government
Do they make you hang out with Ballmer for a week just to get access?
YOU may consider Windows a second-class citizen, but the market sure doesn't.
FUCK the market. The market doesn't know what it wants. It only thinks it knows what it wants because someone has told it what it wants.
Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.
thegodmovie.com - watch it
User maintains 14 accounts on Slashdot.
How much of the server growth is due to capacity, though? I'd like to see some numbers comparing how many users a Windows Server host for a web application can support versus, say, BSD, for the same application. I looked around a bit but couldn't find any.
Perl could be a first class citizen on Windows if MS bundled a C compiler and library like any decent OS does.
Or, you could go and download them, geeze! Why bloat installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?
What about gems?
Right, and MS never bloats installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?
Right, and MS never bloats installations with bundled stuff that the vast majority of users won't ever need?
Your post makes no sense. If Microsoft bundles other things they should also bundle gigabytes of C++? This doesn't follow in any logical way, would make no business sense and would inconvenience most users. Can you even name something comparable that Microsoft bundles with Windows? Most stuff they ship with Windows is very minimal, just enough to get you started; I don't believe any of the components not strictly related to the OS itself came even within an order of magnitude of the size and complexity of a Visual Studio installation. So, the question becomes: did you stop for a moment to think, or did some subcortical Microsoft bashing reflex twich, just as uncontrollable and as pointless as a knee jerk?
And how is the build process for a CPAN module going to automate this if VC isn't installed? ..."
"Dear user, please go here:http:..., then click this and that, wait for the download, then click setup.exe, wait for the install to finish, then come back here and retry. Oh, and mare sure you use only browser X or Y because Microsoft won't support anything else, and make sure you turn on Javascript, and cookies,
thegodmovie.com - watch it
No C compiler requires gigabytes of disk space. C++ isn't used to build Perl.
Explain how this would inconvenience anyone.
The .NET Runtime. It comes with compiler executables for C#, VB.NET and JScript.NET, and it is installed by default since Windows XP SP2.
An IDE, like Visual Studio.NET, is not required to build Perl. You only need a C compiler, linker and make utility.
It's a very dark ride.
You're correct--two wrongs do not make a right. But, in my opinion, a C compiler is more important than much of the other crap they currently distribute.
But, in my opinion, a C compiler is more important than much of the other crap they currently distribute.
:). But you have to consider that the vast majority Windows users don't know (or care about) C. The comparatively few ones knowledgeable enough to need a compiler are knowledgeable enough to download it (with the exception, apparently, of the grand-grand parent). For the others a media player, or a simple mail/news client, or a simple paint program, or even Minesweeper are more important than a C compiler.
Spoken like a developer
And how is the build process for a CPAN module going to automate this if VC isn't installed?
Not a very good question: first, on Windows, most stuff is distributed as binaries. There are lots of tools and facilities for creating installers; compiling source is not a requirement. Anybody who plans to distribute his product in source format to normal Windows users, expecting them to build and install it, has already failed.
Second, if somebody needs to install perl modules, they belong to the "knowledgeable" subset of users I alluded to in another post. They know the module needs to be compiled, they know to go and download Microsoft's free express compilers, or the proper version of GCC, and they are probably capable to handle minor installation and/or compile time issues. But if you go playing with perl without knowing what a compiler is, all I can say is well, lots of luck.
You must be one hell of a businessman.
recently updated to Ubuntu 8.10, and discovered that the sleek, fuel-efficient KDE programs I love were ripped out and replaced with hummers. Honestly, Kolourpaint takes up 50% of my cpu drawing a line.
Ack! You gained gnomexperience!
Perl, C, C++ will take care of most things also OpenGL if you want to help with CAD alternatives.