Windows Cheap Enough For $2B Aussie Laptop Deal

An anonymous reader writes "Windows-based netbooks aren't too expensive to be ruled out of the Aussie government's billion dollar promise to give a laptop to every school-aged child, according to several education departments. The admission follows an earlier report that open source machines based on Ubuntu or Mandriva are the only option to deliver up to four million computers to students for under $2 billion. Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices."

Comments

Too bad there won't be a useful

[Anonymous Coward]

internet connection for each of those school children.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[tchiseen]

If the students get OLPC's maybe they can use the ad-hoc wifi capabilities and make Australia's best internet :P

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[lysergic.acid]

well, since they're netbooks, not desktops, you'd need ubiquitous wireless access in order to match the functionality that would be provided with Ubuntu + OpenOffice. and considering that Australia's one of the few developed countries behind the U.S. in internet infrastructure, that seems very unlikely.

to get the full benefits of the hardware, you pretty much have to go with FOSS or spend a heck of a lot more money.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[unit8765]

No useful internet because of internet filtering in Australia.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[XDirtypunkX]

While Australia's wired access in rural areas is lacking, we have pretty much ubiquitous access to fast mobile (wireless) broadband. In fact, you can get 7.2mbit access pretty much everywhere in the country.

That's soon going to be 21mbit, the first large scale roll-out in the world of that particular mobile technology.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[ZekeSpeak]

While Australia's wired access in rural areas is lacking, we have pretty much ubiquitous access to fast mobile (wireless) broadband. In fact, you can get 7.2mbit access pretty much everywhere in the country.

That's soon going to be 21mbit, the first large scale roll-out in the world of that particular mobile technology.

Really? The best Telstra can do is 3mbps download. If you want to pay $125 a month you can get a 10Gb shaped download plan (shaped to 64kbps if you exceed this). Sounds expensive.

Most of the plans are capped at 1Gb or less (25c a MB if exceeded).

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[theaveng]

So it will cost $1 billion to provide the netbooks, and $10 billion to give everyone wireless internet to access the web-based software. Yeah great solution Microsoft.

The REAL answer is to build the laptops so they don't need internet to run software.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[bsDaemon]

You do realize that the United States is over 2.27x the land area of the EU, right? Australia is also over twice as large as the EU.

The point I'm trying to make is that people complain about the lack of "broadband saturation" in the US, but don't seem to realize that South Korea is 32,622 square miles while the US is over 3.7MILLION square miles.

There is a whole hell of a lot of space to cover, lots of people, etc. The major metro areas have things covered, but its terribly difficult to to get everything covered in a place like the US or Australia where everyone isn't cooped up on top of each other in a small space.

Cut us some slack, dude.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[Golddess]

I was thinking something similar. Forget the problems of intermittent internet connections, what I'm wondering about is will Microsoft revoke access to the apps once the students graduate from school?

Although I guess that only matters if the students get to keep the laptops or if they go back to the school.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[leuchuk]

Is this really a good reason? Why do you want to have a "remote" area - remote defined as being just outside a metropolitan area - have an internet connection which is slower than that of the Hubble telescope?

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[shutdown -p now]

With respect to the US, this was debunked time and time again.

Yes, US is large. But most of its population is still gathered in very densely populated areas. Regardless, even within those areas, broadband saturation is nowhere near as high as it is in similarly populated areas in Europe, not to mention Korea or Japan.

Furthermore, Canada and a few European countries (such as Finland) also have pretty large swathes of land with little population scattered around villages, yet they somehow manage to get broadband there as well.

Try again.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[Achromatic1978]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The "best" Telstra can do is 8mbps download speed over cable, unless you're in, ooh, any capital city, where you get 30mbps download, shaped at 25GB if you go over it for $89. Most plans? There's a 200mb plan, a 400mb plan (obviously aimed at email users), a 12gig (no excess) plan, a 25gig (no excess) plan. Not sure how that works out to be "most plans". That's just a little bit different to 3mbps, 10gb, $125, wouldn't you agree?

However the GP was talking about wireless access via its 3G/3.5G HSDPA network, which is indeed capable of 7mbps currently and has been tested on their commercially deployed network at 21mbps.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[rtb61]

The cloud is just a marketing lie, to try to hide the continual cost of closed source proprietary software. In fact the whole article reflects the continued blatant lie of M$, that open source competes with M$. Opem source is open to everyone, should M$ choose to they can adhere to what is becoming a globally accepted international application and document standard and supply software, the choose to refuse.

In the current economic climate, sending billions of dollars overseas to one foreign corporation, on an annual basis is clearly unreasonable especially when that cost is quite simply wasted and will have to be repeated again and again into the future. Not just the operating system, but also the Office suite, file server software licence fees, mail server software licences, web server software licences and M$ say they can save money by adding educational software lock in on the cloud with either annual licensing fees or, the mind positively boggles but, you expect it with US companies, giving a corporation full access to minors including psychological analysis of the children's documents for targeted marketing solutions force fed in the classroom.

That's the whole basis of the cloud either pay continually for access to your data and the required applications or subject yourself to a continuous stream of marketing effluent both are ludicrous propositions.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[ZekeSpeak]

The "best" Telstra can do is 8mbps download speed over cable,

We were talking wireless broadband, not cable.

I provided information from telstra's own wireless broadband web page, but I suppose you know better than telstra.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[Anonymous Coward]

BUT the headlines are a perfect way to identify Windows....Cheap as in crap. One thing MS provides the PC user is crappy software.

Re:Too bad there won't be a useful

[Anonymous Coward]

Which Australia do you live in? The one where I live, Telstra's NextG network cant achieve more than 2mbps, and Optus is about the same. The coverage is shot and don't even get me started on the costs.

$500 a "netbook"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Must be some pretty damn good machines to pay $500 a unit on an order of 4 million units.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Facetious]

No joke. I just picked up three Acer Aspire One netbooks (Linux edition) for $250 apiece at Newegg.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[aliquis]

When I went to school we even hade to pay for things like compass and protractor, and those things where actually useful for the studies to!

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Akzo]

Things outide the US are generally more expensive, not including shipping/customs costs and currency differences.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Sabriel]

Note that the article is about Australia; one Aussie dollar currently equals 66 US cents and after the various middlemen get their markup the value of a computer in AUD is often double its USD value.

(funny how every time the AUD approaches the USD, something happens to the stock market to bring it back down :p)

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[strider44]

This is in Australian dollars (approx. $330 USD) and includes a maintenance contract.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Chandon Seldon]

Things outide the US are generally more expensive, not including shipping/customs costs and currency differences.

For millions of units of something made in Taiwan, it shouldn't be terribly difficult to get a reasonable price on it in Australia. At that volume, you can rent your own ship. If you're the Australian government, you shouldn't be paying customs. Etc.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[lysergic.acid]

well, 500 AUD = 329.85 USD. which is also the list price for the Asus Eee PC in Australia (for the Linux version, i'm assuming).

shipping/customs shouldn't be a issue since it's being ordered by the Australian government, and in such bulk that the per unit shipping cost would be negligible.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Elektroschock]

And when you use a more efficient Linux environment as LXDE the maschine gets faster and more eco-efficient. If teaching applications move the cloud as Microsoft pretends the client operating system does not matter.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Anonymous Coward]

When I went to school we even hade(had) to pay for things like compass and protractor, and those things where(were) actually useful for the studies to!

Apparently you didn't need to invest in your own spelling books either.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Eskarel]

Unfortunately it doesn't work that way.

Yes, the stuff is made in Taiwan or somewhere else in South East Asia, and yes, that's closer to Australia, than it is to most of the US, but we still pay more for everything.

It's just the way things are. Just about everything is more expensive here.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[MichaelSmith]

well, 500 AUD = 329.85 USD. which is also the list price for the Asus Eee PC in Australia (for the Linux version, i'm assuming).

shipping/customs shouldn't be a issue since it's being ordered by the Australian government, and in such bulk that the per unit shipping cost would be negligible.

The 701 model eee is advertised in the paper here in .au for $350 aud but I have seen it for 300 in a different store and I would expect to pay no more than 250 given that you can get better models now.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[QuantumG]

Oh dear. You're not familiar with the Australian government are you?

For a start, the majority of the cost on computers is luxury tax. Yes, the tax man in Australia still considers computers to be a "luxury".

Secondly, if the education department was to opt not to pay the luxury tax on these laptops then the revenue department would claim a shortfall. Ever wonder why government employees have to pay income tax? I mean, shit, their salary comes from the government. For a while I thought the defense force had got it right and didn't tax the wages of soldiers and airmen and such. But no, my confusion was from the advertising for the army reserve. Apparently that's just a carrot. I don't understand how they figure it's a carrot, but apparently it is. Oh, and for added hilarity, did you know that you have to pay taxes on unemployment benefits received from the government? Typically you don't.. because benefits are so low that it puts you under the tax free threshold.. but if you're unemployed for 6 months and employed for the remaining 6 months of a financial year, your combined incoming (benefits+salary) is taxed.. and you'll pay sales tax either way, and import taxes and luxury tax. Double, triple, quadruple taxes.. the ATO has no shame.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[aliquis]

Or I was sloppy with my fingers.
(Or eventually wasn't thinking that much while typing, hade = had in swedish, so my body may just have decided to type the rest of the word.)

Your comment don't make sense, it would make more sense if we had to invest in them but I didn't .. Guess your right brain half works better than the left one ..

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Chandon Seldon]

There's got to be some Australian government policy making things that way then, because normally this sort of thing gets solve automatically by the market. Think of all the money *you* could make going to Taiwan or Hong Kong, buying netbooks for 250 AUD, shipping them bulk to Australia (probably less than $1/piece) and selling them for $300 AUD...

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Dan541]

You mean the AC wasn't being sarcastic?

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Anonymous Coward]

For a start, the majority of the cost on computers is luxury tax. Yes, the tax man in Australia still considers computers to be a "luxury".

I'm an accountant and this is wrong. There is no luxury tax on computers. It is certainly not the majority of cost on computers.

Secondly, if the education department was to opt not to pay the luxury tax on these laptops then the revenue department would claim a shortfall.

There is no luxury tax. I'll let you work out if it's a taxable supply for GST purposes. Suggest reading the GST Act.

Oh, and for added hilarity, did you know that you have to pay taxes on unemployment benefits received from the government? Typically you don't.. because benefits are so low that it puts you under the tax free threshold.. but if you're unemployed for 6 months and employed for the remaining 6 months of a financial year, your combined incoming (benefits+salary) is taxed.. and you'll pay sales tax either way, and import taxes and luxury tax.

The tax legislation takes the view that it is income. I don't think that's unreasonable.

Double, triple, quadruple taxes.. the ATO has no shame.

You are putting the blame in the wrong spot. The Australian Tax Office's prime responsibility is for the administration of the tax system. They make some rulings, and the courts decide definitively on edge cases but ultimately the tax legislation has been determined by parliament and is contained in the various tax acts.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Anonymous Coward]

what are you talking about? Maybe ten years ago when there was 33% sales tax, but now there is 10% GST on computers and most other things that are not basic foodstuffs.

The idea of taxing benefits is so that if a beneficiary works as well (probably part time) then the income they receive there doesn't get the tax free threshold. If the benefit was tax exempt income then they would be double dipping on the tax free part.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Anonymous Coward]

Taxes are like that most anywhere, though here in the US we dont have a luxury tax on computers afaik.

Every time a dollar changes hands, the government taxes it. You get paid? Pay a state, federal, and other misc taxes. Buy something at the local store? Local, state, federal, and option taxes. Oh, and those dollars get double taxed, since the business owner has to pay business related taxes on that income.

The governments do this because they all want a piece of the pie, and they want to spread it out so its not so obvious. I wish the government would just take their chunk up front, and allow commerce to occur on the backside without intervention.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[novakreo]

Oh, and for added hilarity, did you know that you have to pay taxes on unemployment benefits received from the government? Typically you don't.. because benefits are so low that it puts you under the tax free threshold.. but if you're unemployed for 6 months and employed for the remaining 6 months of a financial year, your combined incoming (benefits+salary) is taxed.. and you'll pay sales tax either way, and import taxes and luxury tax. Double, triple, quadruple taxes.. the ATO has no shame.

If you are concerned that your taxable income might be over the tax-free threshold, you can ask Centrelink to withhold a portion of your benefit to pay to the tax office (just like an employer would, except you can choose the proportion). At the end of the financial year, you will get it back in your tax return if any or all of it is left over.

Re:$500 a "netbook"?

[Eskarel]

Well some of it is tarrifs, and some of it is substantially higher retail wages, but most of it is just the fact that they can.

Distributors(particularly American distributors) can sell stuff to Australia for a higher price than they would at home. Local stores can sell stuff for a higher price because people will pay it.

The free market(if it were even really free) doesn't really tend towards the lowest possible price(though it does tend towards the company with the lowest marginal cost) because at the end of that road is exactly the same situation everyone is in now, but with lower profits.

Mind you with competition from the US, things are getting a bit cheaper, but even iTunes costs more here than it does over there, and always has, even when the currency rates were near parity.

The Pusher

[Forrest Kyle]

Drugs are always affordable when the dealer is trying to get you hooked.

Re:The Pusher

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

Drugs are always affordable when the dealer is trying to get you hooked. (Score:5, Insightful)

That metaphor applies to companies you like, too. It's like saying Microsoft's shit stinks or Microsoft's morning breath is bad.

Way to wisely use those mod points.

Re:The Pusher

[Anonymous Coward]

Drugs are always affordable when the dealer is trying to get you hooked.

if Windows is a drug , I say it's PCP

Re:The Pusher

[ozmanjusri]

That metaphor applies to companies you like, too.

No, not when those companies supply open and interoperable products.

It's like saying Microsoft's shit stinks or Microsoft's morning breath is bad.

I've used their shit, and yeah, it frequently stinks. I don't know what you've been doing to be able to smell their morning breath though. When most of us say Microsoft screws its customers and partners, we mean it metaphorically...

Re:The Pusher

[ozmanjusri]

if Windows is a drug , I say it's PCP

Nah, it'd have to be nicotine.

It's heavily marketed, addictive and once you're hooked, you have to keep spending and spending to get more of the same, though there's been no buzz for decades.

Re:The Pusher

[MobileTatsu-NJG]

No, not when those companies supply open and interoperable products.

Any profit-based business will entice you to stay as a long-term customer. That's not something Microsoft deserves sole credit for. Sorry buddy, that meme is not 'insightful'. Actually it works against the premise in some respects. Oh well.

Re:The Pusher

[Anonymous Coward]

Cigarettes have never had a buzz whatsoever.
Even with small cigarette sized cigars it is easy to see the real effects of nicotine. It is a high similar to alcohol, but without the euphoria. If you OD it gives you nausea.
Cigarettes have the right amount so that it doesn't really do anything for you but still keeps you buying the poison.
This is yet another case where we were better off with Communism.
Viva Fidel!

Educational applications in the cloud

[Bruce Perens]

Educational applications on a web server are nothing new. It's funny, though, that Windows would need them. I have one of these small-cheap-light laptops that cost $350 and is intended for use with Windows "only for web browsing and email". I put Debian on it. There's only one thing I have found that it can't do: build the Linux kernel quickly. It's kind of slow at that, but it works. OpenOffice is no problem, etc.

But with a cloud, you can tie all of those kids into a network that Microsoft will be able to monetize, propogandize, etc.

Bruce

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Rene S. Hollan]

Duh.

Besides, "code you have on the box beats code that might be available".

What's sad here isn't that Mr. Perens comment is, well, common sense, but rather that so many don't see it as so obvious.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Yfrwlf]

Well I don't think the suits that are usually running these IT circuses understand "lock-in" and simple concepts like that so for them it's new. They don't look at long term costs, in every way that term can be applied, they just look at the dollar figure presented, watch the shiny PR video that's shown to them, and then sign the deal. I think many out there in the IT industry have witnessed that. I wouldn't be surprised whatsoever that if they did reject the figure because Linux is free, M$ would probably also give it to them for free.

If they were to put Linux on though, they'd need to standardize on one "distro" until Linux can get it's act together and push some cross-distro software packaging standards, otherwise teachers would not be able to distribute software to them. Even if they did standardize on one distro, of course it's still a needed feature.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[TheRaven64]

You miss the point of this statement:

Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices."

It will keep the costs for the hardware down by hosting the applications elsewhere. Or, to put it another way, they will host education apps online for free (now) so that the required hardware specs are lower, allowing more of the total to be spent on (Microsoft) software used to access the (.NET, Windows-only) server side software (which may not remain free for long after the initial investment on Windows laptops has been made and you are locked in).

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Anonymous Coward]

I've been a sysadmin at a school in Europe, where I had the joy of working with educational software. It wasn't even written by MS, but didn't worked on anything except IE6.

Right now, I bet they'll be using silverlight and/or activeX for an *enhanced* experience, that will only run windows machines using internet explorer.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Bruce Perens]

That's what "monetize" meant :-)

I don't think they're reducing the cost of the hardware, though. $350 USD pays for an Acer Aspire One with 1G RAM and 160G disk at retail. And you can probably get a much better price in a bulk purchase. I think they are budgeting AU $500 per unit. That leaves a lot of money for Microsoft even in the initial purchase.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Dragonslicer]

But with a cloud, you can tie all of those kids into a network that Microsoft will be able to monetize, propogandize, etc.

Isn't that a bit "conspiracy theorist"? Why can't the explanation be something normal, like Microsoft making sure that every kid in Australia grows up believing that computer == Windows.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Anonymous Coward]

Er... Linux Standard Base, anyone?

Though it's hardly been announced to great fanfare, work is being done to standardize a certain amount of the Linux kernel across the various distributions. This should help to bridge one major gap.

Unfortunately, solving the packaging system is going to be much more difficult. It'll likely become a two horse race, between APT and RPM, but that still leaves us with a race to be done (and inevitably, for some people to be burned by).

Unless we want to school all APT distro users in the use of alien... let's stop right there, that isn't going to happen.

And neither will Linux on Aussie netbooks, unless people realise that while F/OSS is free, professional 24/7 support isn't. And don't think M$ is just going to fight fairly - if need be, it's going to be throwing money at the government to secure this deal. They've played this game many a time (most recently, the OOXML fiasco) and won most of them, and they know how short-sighted government officials can be.

Bottom line is, when M$ is trying to secure a market, F/OSS is free but M$ is better than free.

It's only afterwards that people realise what they've done, but a contract is a contract and I doubt there's many ways to wriggle out of that.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Yfrwlf]

You and I mean two completely different things by "standardization". I'm talking about cooperation, "frameworks", APIs, things that allow for interoperability and communication enough to get job done. That's what the LSB failed at doing, because instead of providing solutions, it tried forcing choice, which meant a lack thereof for those who listened. There's no reason, at all, why at least one package format can't be developed, promoted, and made cross-distro. For the last time (since I've said this so much it's tiring), it is not about forcing anyone to choose between RPM or DEB or any of the other package formats out there, it's about getting a damn API/system/whatever in place to allow the choice between formats. It's about untying the formats from the package managers. Breaking down that "software stack" so that it's modular, and you have freedom and choice. Just like BZIP, ZIP, TAR, 7Z, RAR, and all the rest, you should have the choice as to which format you want to use. As long as the format is one that is capable of being able to be dealt with intelligently by any and all package managers, the format is a good one and should be an option for anyone who wants to use it. Any packaging format which cannot easily be used in a cross-platform manner needs to be either updated, or discarded in favor of something that's actually functional as a format which will allow choice instead of breeding new distro repository prisoners which is what distro companies want.

Linux users want more freedom than that, not to mention it needs to be adopted faster and needs more features, and that's one hell of a feature for Linux. Just imagine, actual easy sharing of Linux software with your friends regardless of what distro they are running, and being able to update Firefox easily and quickly directly from the developers who helped make it through your automatic system updates if you want to, being able to install any software from anywhere even if it's not in your proprietary repository, and if you're a developer being able to release ONLY ONE PACKAGE FOR LINUX.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Tubal-Cain]

eb browsing and email". I put Debian on it. There's only one thing I have found that it can't do:

So it can run Crysis?

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Anonymous Coward]

Thank you Bruce.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[dgun]

Educational applications on a web server are nothing new. It's funny, though, that Windows would need them

Exactly.

And it would serve Microsoft right for using a buzzword like 'cloud' if people figured that out.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[janwedekind]

Or to cite Eben Moglen: "Hiding how things work is the opposite of teaching." My suggestion is to give the students a GNU/Linux and Microsoft Windows dual-boot laptop (or a tripple-boot if Apple is ok with Psystar supporting MacOS). The GNU/Linux would include the source code of the system libraries and the Kernel. Then the students will be able to explore the different "user experiences" of developing with free software and developing with proprietary SDKs. If this is not feasible then let the students and their parents decide and have them purchase the laptop and the software+support separately. The school then should teach the concepts instead of the products. It should not be difficult to develop a curriculum using software running on both platforms (as long as it does not involve modifying the operating system) ;)

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[blackest_k]

Netbooks are pretty good for individuals but for educational use does Linux provide whats needed?

It's no good just to say Linux is cheaper than Windows, whats there available in terms of infrastructure, and applications for educational use?

Who's going to put a package together to meet the requirements of the Australian Educational System?

It looks like Microsoft is putting together a simple package for educational use, boot up, sign on and use the system. What has Linux got to offer other than a lower unit price? Is there an organization working to meet the educational requirements?

Is Windows a requirement for "cloud based" computing? Perhaps a Linux system could take advantage of the infrastructure provided by microsoft?

It seems all I have is questions, I'm not trying to flame all my systems run Ubuntu but I am not convinced that Linux has the infrastructure and applications to be easily integrated into the australian education system. I'd love to be proven wrong but Microsoft seems more than willing to invest in bringing a windows solution to the desktop.

btw which netbook did you go for bruce, and was there much work needed to make debian run well on it?

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[leuchuk]

Of course. For MS the "cloud" is luckily in front of the heads of no-techies called politians - they don't see too clear.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[leuchuk]

What kind of "educational use" does MS provide except how to learn to spend money on software? Finally the educational use would be buying software from some vendors, wouldn't it?

Why not something like in the Edubuntu versions? May be "australianized"?

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[HJED]

sorry to burst your bubble but there is a silver light plug-in for Firefox

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Anonymous Coward]

500 AUD = 328 USD at the moment, there's not much money for MS to eat up.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[blackest_k]

well theres a network infra structure to implement, fairly obviously theres a need to seperate student accounts from teachers accounts. Servers which with the "cloud" appear as if they would be maintained by microsoft, necessary texts, which probably will need to have licensed access and drm to protect the publishers and a whole host of other things which are of no interest to us as individuals but will matter to companies looking to make a buck out of educational software. Then there are syllabus requirements ...

Microsoft probably has the resources to make it as easy as logging on to Slashdot for the teachers and students and minimal technical skills required within the schools themselves. Who's going to do this for a Linux solution?

To be honest theres a good chance Microsoft would only support School requirements at a basic level but you can see the requirements of an educational program are different to having a number of educational applications.

       

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[badkarmadayaccount]

You already can. It's called .src.t*z

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Rene S. Hollan]

Yes, but package meta-data (what package managers use to resolve dependencies automagically), is NOT standardized.

Basically, you need a way of naming packages, an inheritance hierarchy describing which packages are extentions of others, virtual packages (so that if you need "foo" functionality, any package that implements "foo" functionality can be used), verification that packages implement the functionality of their virtual bases ("myFoo" works but "yourFOO" is buggy), a means of describing the specific installation details of a package (so that if bar needs libFoo, it knows where to look -- pkgtool does some of this), etc.

There are bits and pieces that solve some of the issues, but not all.

One of the nastyiest hurdles are config files that other packages want to edit: even had a package that needed to change some networking configuration? Is it in /etc/network/interfaces or /etc/sysconfig/network/eth? (or whatever, I'm sure I flubbed the paths somewhere). Ideally the networking "package" should define it's config file format for other packages to munge (or go the route of .d directories where orthogonal configs are separate files). The idea is if you know that use use "networkFoo" you know "networkFoo's" config file format.

But what if there's a competing network config standard for "networkBar", and you have networkBar not networkFoo installed? Shouldn't the "better" packages that depend on network packages be smart enough to deal with both (at least until the dust settles on which is better)?

You can either try to "force" a standard, and deal with issues in the package management system, or figure out the kind of metadata about a package that you need to maintain, and let the package managers arise to the challenge of using it.

Forcing a standard works only if it has already proven itself as a defacto standard that meets 95%+ of use case needs. Look at pkgtool, automake, and autoconf. Kinda ugly, but they do a fairly good job at what they do (and why .tar.gz generally works so well). Trouble is, they don't do everything, nor do they permit deferal of some decisions after compilation time (where, admitedly, there is less freedom). But, if an OS ise defined by "this" particular set of autoconf-aware parameters, presumably those things that depend on them (and only them) can be precompiled in a package for that OS, with the rest compiled at install time.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[badkarmadayaccount]

Uhhh, I was sorta joking, but that was an interesting read nonetheless.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Yfrwlf]

Yeah well it's responses like yours, harping on extremely needed Linux features, that downplays their importance. Allowing anyone to easily click and install software within or without of any silly repository is one very important step in helping Linux software and it's users have more freedom. Copying software is what got Windows as big as it is, if packages were standardized so they could be shared and copied easily without compilation between all distros, Linux and it's programs could spread much more rapidly which will help adoption.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Yfrwlf]

"One of the nastyiest hurdles are config files that other packages want to edit"

Then those programs need a way to play nicely. They need to work out a system to cooperate. Putting off package standardization for so long has allowed this to become even worse. Instead of fixing problems, distro packagers simply make their OWN version of everything, their OWN config files, and that is not the solution to communication and not the way to build a healthy operating system. One that is healthy will have the frameworks/APIs/communication layers, whatever you want to call them, in place so that successful communication between programs will be successful. Linux developers can't just live on islands anymore if they want their software to be used, they have to learn to play nice with others.

So, yes, standard naming conventions or a way to resolve naming collisions or issues on-the-fly, there are many ways of resolving all the issues so that programs can find all the needed files, but still allow package managers to put them where they want to. All you do is provide "dumb" software packages that provide enough metadata as necessary to allow successful installation and running, and then you can have different package managers doing whatever they want. As long as you have at least one API in place, you could also have however many package formats you want even, though maybe it's not even really necessary if the packages are really simple.

All I know is that it's not an unsolvable issue, and all the existing package managers need to make themselves compatible with the existing formats or all adopt compatibility with at least one new or revised format.

I also wanted to add that I think most/all of dependency issues could be resolved by having the package contain URL links to all the dependencies (using a GPG key or whatnot system for security, etc etc), and by having a system where any libraries and versions of libraries could be installed side-by-side. Doing that will *also* help with lagging communication problems, because for the most part if libraries used stable APIs, you should only usually need one version installed at a time, the newer versions should still be able to run programs compiled with the older versions. The "oh screw it, instead of making an API lets just compile every program with X version of this library and have only those program versions in our repository" tactic is old and outdated and doesn't solve the real problem, and of course even further promotes distro lock-in.

Forcing standards is definitely silly, everything should be driven by what is popular, just be wary of distros rebelling against the adoption of cross-distro packaging solutions though because they don't want them, their repositories is what makes them "unique". If all software is open source, why choose one distro over another? The answer should be because you should choose the one that has the most pre-installed software that you want, but you should be able to easily install any programs that the other distros have. Go to the website, click, download, install, it should be that easy.

Linux has been living in the past, it's time to catch up if it wants to see adoption take off much more quickly.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Yfrwlf]

and please excuse all my grammar mistakes and stuff, I was on a rant. ^^

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[badkarmadayaccount]

Dude, I was joking, mmmkay? I completely agree with you, I was just clowning off.

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[leuchuk]

You made some points. But your second paragraph made me think what is school good for: To have NO knowledge about a central technique of nowadays more than the very basics as users? No technical skills in computers? Does it mean to close pupils out of that portion of knowlesge and give it to someone anonymous? I don't know how's it in Australia but in central Europe the average pupil has more knowledge than the average teacher and there's not only a games generation (XBox/PS2 you name it) out there in schools. The Linux solution? The solution where the knowledge is completely outside the school and the insiders are just users? I admit that there's a learning curve with Linux which is probably higher than that of MS (if p&p really works), on the other hand I don't think that the proposal of no knowledge except basics will satisfy the needs of a school as there is often enough a reason for example to reinstall Windows from the scratch and such kind of school would not make even that. Of course MS won't do that, too, except for cash. I expect from a school the development of skills, especially in such important areas. I expect to find in a school at least a few teachers or pupils which have at least some basic knowledge in, for example, how to set up a network. How to give users access. No in-depth details like filigrane program tuning via registry manipulation. Which doesn't mean that this has to be on a Linux mashine. Another thought: Software made in schools or may be by pupils for schools doesn't need DRM. Texts made for the school by teachers in their worktime are anyway copyright of the state. Why should the state get an head ache with DRM to distibute such kind of texts within the schools? I still don't see any _better_ reason for MS (except commercial) than for Edubuntu (a Ubuntu-Linux version with educational programs).

Re:Educational applications in the cloud

[Yfrwlf]

OK fine geez gosh. ^^

But seriously, most Linux users should push for it. :P

What a surprise

[QuantumG]

"We're thinking of using Linux" == "Hey Microsoft, we want a discount!"

Re:What a surprise

[grege1]

I agree absolutely, and Microsoft will have to cave in because the thought of every school kid in the country using Linux and OpenOffice would give them nightmares. I would like to see the Education departments really use Linux laptops, but they do not have the guts to carry it through.

Re:What a surprise

[Yfrwlf]

If it came down to it, M$ would give it to them for free rather than see Linux being used of course. That's why it's up to intelligent employees to realize what the long term costs are, and what they are doing by "selling" the Windows platform to students, so free for them would still be an excellent deal for Microsoft in numerous ways.

Re:What a surprise

[tchiseen]

It's pretty blinking obvious Microsoft is getting desperate to limit the reach of Linux to the masses. They certainly don't want 4 million kids learning that Microsoft is irrelevant, and taking that knowledge with them into the work force in the future.

Re:What a surprise

[Elektroschock]

Indeed, this is why the governments need to invest more in open source. It does not matter if they use it, it is just a fantastic tool to get really cheap procurement contracts.

Re:What a surprise

[Yfrwlf]

Certainly, and that's why education is such a huge target for these corporations, they want teachers teaching students to use the most expensive pieces of software in the industry, which IMO should piss the parents and students off to no end. "Mom, you need to buy me Adobe Creative Suite 3, I need it for class, it's only $500." and "I just got hired on, and you aren't using Windows Vista yet? Your company should upgrade, I was trained on Vista." :P

Many average computer users haven't even heard of Linux even though they use it every day whether they know it or not. That is slowly changing, but M$ is sure doing everything they can to slow its spread. Thus, every little bit done to spread knowledge of it and improve it as a platform, helps.

Re:What a surprise

[QuantumG]

"Mom, you need to buy me Adobe Creative Suite 3, I need it for class, it's only $500."

No, see, Adobe provides "student" editions which are cheaper. And by "cheaper" I mean they cost $100 instead of $500.. but that's still too expensive for the majority of parents with 2.5 kids.

Re:What a surprise

[Yfrwlf]

Right, or basically like what's been said on here many times over, they're like crack dealers, it's the same business model. It's too bad stupid boards/directors/etc in school districts don't think "hmm, I wonder why they're making a student edition to begin with...hmmmmmm..." There's quite a bit of irony in asking for intelligent school directors and boards.

Re:What a surprise

[TheKidWho]

Not at all... The software costs $500 because it takes a long time and a lot of developers to make it. Yes there is free software that can replace some of the functions, but not at the same quality. For example, I'm an engineer, I do a lot of computational work. As a student I was able to get a $100 student copy of matlab. I tried out free software too mind you, but nothing out there compares(octave doesn't compare, nor does scilab). I would gladly pay over $2000 for a professional copy of matlab because it saves me a hell of a lot of time. Same thing for CAD software, find me something that has anywhere near the functionality of Unigraphics NX and that is free and I will switch to it immediately. They make student editions because that's the software that professionals use and they want students to learn the software.

Re:What a surprise

[QuantumG]

Oh do fuck off. The software costs $500 because people will pay $500. If people would pay $5000, they'd charge $5000. If people wouldn't pay $500, they'd charge $100.. which is why they offer that price to students, cause otherwise they won't buy it. It's called the market price and it has nothing to do with how much it costs to make it.

Re:What a surprise

[TheKidWho]

I would gladly pay over $2000 for a professional copy of matlab because it saves me a hell of a lot of time.

I know it's the market price, I doubt Adobe Creative Suite XX costs 10x more to develop than certain AAA video games out there. But that's beside the point. The point being that student versions are offered to learn off of. You also forget that a lot of companies provide student software for free or extremely cheap prices ($5-$20)(Yes many of them get paid indirectly through technology fees, but a lot don't), Autodesk Inventor and Maple being an example.

The parent was arguing that such companies are acting like drug dealers which is disingenuous...

Re:What a surprise

[rdnetto]

Of course, from the government's point of view its actually cheaper to go the Microsoft route. Most people fail to recognize that because Linux is a minority OS, getting support for it is more difficult. There definitely won't be enough technicians to cover every school, so their wages will skyrocket. Better to go with what everyone knows and can support, right?

P.S. I am not against using Linux per-se, I am merely looking at it from an objective and financial POV.

Re:What a surprise

[QuantumG]

The parent was arguing that such companies are acting like drug dealers which is disingenuous...

Why? You have to make an argument. Everyone else can see that they are acting like drug dealers.. giving you your first "hit" for free. So what magical insight do you have that the rest of us are wrong?

My point was, as if anyone cares, that people see a "student edition" of a $500 product for $100 and go "wow, look how cheap that is!" when there are perfectly capable alternatives on the market for much less than even the student price. I actually hear people say with glee "wow, it's great that I can pay $100 now and $400 later when I've learned the product". You fucking what now? You're happy to pay the overpriced cost of the software because they gave you an installment plan? Oh, and BTW, "learning" how to use a piece of software is backasswards.. if you can't figure out how to use the software in the first 15 minutes of sitting in front of it then it is junk and you should raise your standards. But, to be fair, in some circles that's the best software available and the whole stinkin' industry needs to raise their standards at the same time, which will never happen organically.

Plus I felt like ranting.

Re:What a surprise

[TheKidWho]

I'll agree with you, you have a point with certain software. But not every piece of software is so straightforward. Matlab/Simulink for example while easy to pick up, is difficult to master, and I've taken my rounds with octave/scilab as I've said, but they have given me too many issues. UG NX also, or any solid modelling package, while the interface can be picked up in 15 minutes, actually doing useful work with it takes practice. Granted I'm referring to technical software here, more mainstream software like Adobe Creative Suite etc does have plenty of low cost or free alternatives that are equally as good. Heck I use almost all opensource/free software on my linux laptop except for a few apps.

Re:What a surprise

[LingNoi]

Not for long.

Re:What a surprise

[forkazoo]

I agree absolutely, and Microsoft will have to cave in because the thought of every school kid in the country using Linux and OpenOffice would give them nightmares. I would like to see the Education departments really use Linux laptops, but they do not have the guts to carry it through.

You aren't even thinking of the potential consequences if Australia pisses off MS bad enough. Clippy is going to say, "It looks like you are writing a letter about going to Australia. You should know that it doesn't exist. It sank. And, it sucked when it existed. You should tell people to never go near that part of the world. Ever."

Every travel website which uses IIS will stop listing flights to Australia. It won't show up in the Windows time zone selection map in the date and time control panel.

Is Australia prepared to face the sort of war that a pissed MS could bring them?

Re:What a surprise

[grege1]

Given the state of the world that might be a very good thing. We could hide down in the Southern Ocean and let the rest get on with their wars and plagues.

Re:What a surprise

[Hognoxious]

It's called the market price and it has nothing to do with how much it costs to make it.

If it could be made for less, a competitor could do so, sell for less while maintaining the same margin, and steal all their customers.

Re:What a surprise

[shutdown -p now]

Why? You have to make an argument. Everyone else can see that they are acting like drug dealers.. giving you your first "hit" for free. So what magical insight do you have that the rest of us are wrong?

You know, maybe, the fact that they don't sell addictive drugs is a good starting point??

Giving something away for cheap (or free) to lure customers is a pretty traditional and absolutely legit business practice that is widely used everywhere. Saying that it's specifically "acting like drug dealers", while superficially correct (drug dealers obviously also use this scheme, among many others), is indeed rather disingenuous.

Re:What a surprise

[Velex]

What the hell. I have karma to burn.

But, to be fair, in some circles that's the best software available and the whole stinkin' industry needs to raise their standards at the same time, which will never happen organically.

Ah, you must be using Intelligent Series call center software by Amtelco. Damn thing freezes every other call and is slow as hell on dual core 2.4 gHz machines with 1 GB of RAM. Ever been told by a call center operator that their computer is running a bit slow and they need to wait for it to catch up? They're not lying.

/troll

Re:What a surprise

[QuantumG]

"Lock-in" is the addiction. Wow, you really didn't get that analogy did ya?

Re:What a surprise

[QuantumG]

All the people I know who work in call centers use shoddy in-house software running on citrix machines ;)

Re:What a surprise

[shutdown -p now]

"Lock-in" isn't an addiction - it is, at most, a habit.

Habits can be hard and uncomfortable to break, sure. But in the end, breaking so only depends on the willingness of one to do so.

Re:What a surprise

[QuantumG]

I can't believe you're still arguing about this.

Re:What a surprise

[Yfrwlf]

Oh so since there's an expensive monopoly running amuck and gobbling tax dollars left and right, we should let it continue to happen just because that's the way things have always been. Ummmmm no. Governments would save billions and billions of dollars by switching, they could take some of those savings and put it into any open source development of any remaining software needs that there aren't yet open source solutions for. The "not enough workers" argument is a very temporary issue. Sorry but for any and all improvements in technology and science, there is a market force that needs to change and adapt. If they *have* to make a gradual change because it's just not possible, which I highly doubt that'd be the case, fine, but *start it*. If it doesn't get started, how will the economy be able to respond by delivering more Linux-savvy techs? Not that it'd be needed, the basic techs would be doing the same thing, replacing hardware parts that go bad, it's just the administrators that'd be responsible for software deployment and security and such who'd have to learn a few new things, or not, depending on what software deployment system they were using for example. A lot of the software deployment systems out there are compatible with both Linux, Windows, and Mac.

Re:What a surprise

[Alanbly]

It's called the market price and it has nothing to do with how much it costs to make it.

If it could be made for less, a competitor could do so, sell for less while maintaining the same margin, and steal all their customers.

If that were true Linux would be the PC market. It's not one product in a vacuum, it's the whole set, politics and marketing included. Everything made by a big corporation can be made for less, we pay what we pay for everything outside of the product, compatibility, company longevity, support, etc... Why don't drug companies go out of business even if the generic is identical and cheaper? We pay because we perceive that the name means something. Perception and confidence drive the market.

Re:What a surprise

[Hognoxious]

If that were true Linux would be the PC market.

Linux isn't the same as Windows (and more importantly, isn't percieved to be), therefore it's not a direct replacement.

Everything made by a big corporation can be made for less, we pay what we pay for everything outside of the product, compatibility, company longevity, support, etc...

That's part of the product. Or to put it another way, the cost of all that is part of the overheads, which are factored into the cost of the product. So what you're saying boils down to everything can be made for less, if you can make some of the costs go away. Well duh!

Re:What a surprise

[Alanbly]

So what you're saying boils down to everything can be made for less, if you can make some of the costs go away.

No, I'm saying that sometimes things can be purchased for less even if the costs don't go away, or the converse that often people will pay more regardless of the "cost" of production. I'm saying that we pay for intangibles like "brand", "coolness", and perceived quality not just feature sets.

It doesn't cost any more to put a computer in a black case than it does to put it in a beige case, but you'll still pay more for it. It doesn't cost any more to print "Really Awesome" on the front of a toy than it does to print "Sortof Alright" but guess which one people will pay more for.

Not really the same.

[Anonymous Coward]

This seems like apples and oranges... With Ubuntu (for example) they're storing their files locally, with Windows they're going to be stored on Microsoft's servers somewhere, it's not really a comparable solution.

Re:Not really the same.

[EvilIdler]

Why would installing Ubuntu mean that they store files locally? Networked storage wasn't invented by Microsoft.

Re:Not really the same.

[Anonymous Coward]

Because with Ubuntu, the office type software resides on the laptop, and defaults to saving local files. You should be asking why does the Microsoft solution save files on the network? Because they don't intend to install office type software on the laptop at all, only some kind of web browser package.

Oops!

[Anonymous Coward]

I can see a hosted version of Microsoft Office 2007.

The internet (or LAN) goes down, or there's some major power outage, and no-one can do their work or homework.

Re:Oops!

[TheKidWho]

Microsoft ate my homework.

Save money

[lordharsha]

Wouldn't it be more efficient to ditch Windows and use the extra money to give laptops to more children?

Re:Save money

[FudRucker]

absolutely!

Re:Save money

[insane_machine]

Two Laptops Per Child Act (TLPC)

Re:Save money

[Yfrwlf]

Even if Windows was given to them for free, which it very well could be, Microsoft would still get a lot from it and the school district, parents, and students would still lose in various ways.

Re:Save money

[Elektroschock]

But negative prices are still possible! Microsoft should offer the netbooks with Windows away for free to schools. Otherwise the schools pay the lock-in costs and do product training and platform marketing for the monopolist for free. It is like paying for a galley seat and workout.

Re:Save money

[Yfrwlf]

Right, it's great advertising, etc etc, like you said, so M$ certainly could offer them money for agreeing to choose them over Linux. Just depends on how far M$ is willing to go and if they think it's worth it to do so.

Re:Save money

[FishWithAHammer]

The only people who "lose" in such a situation are the people who want the kids forced to use Linux instead of what they'd like. Personally, I don't really care what OS people use. If they want OS X, great. Windows, fine. Linux, sure.

Here's the big question, though: do you really think the people who would use these laptops would rather have Linux? Or do you think they'd rather have the Windows environment that they are used to? And if they'd rather have the latter, who the hell are you to try to shove Linux down their throats? You're no better than the Microsoft you insist that you hate, if you're doing that.

Let 'em use what they want, not what makes your nerd penis happy.

Re:Save money

[rdnetto]

No, cause then they'd spend the extra money (and then some) on find those elusive Linux technicians.

Re:Save money

[TheKidWho]

How do they lose? 90% of all desktops out there are running Windows. Face it, for ordinary desktop work, the world uses windows. Trust me, the people who want to use Linux will use Linux, but Linux isn't ready for the masses. Linux is for people who are willing to put the time into learning their system, and a majority of people could care less. Not everyone plans on becoming a developer/systems admin/insert computer related career here, however.

I've been using Linux since 1999, and the year of Linux on the Desktop has always been next year, and it still is.

Re:Save money

[lordharsha]

Finding us isn't so hard.
1. Announce a marathon of Dr Who/ Firefly/ Star Anything
2. Hand out job offers
3. ???
4. Profit

Re:Save money

[LingNoi]

I think you've completely missed the point.

It's not about forcing people to use Linux. The kids will work on whatever laptops they're given.

The point here is that the governments are going with the wrong solution because:

- There isn't enough money for the windows solution to give every kid a laptop
- Applications hosted over the internet is just dumb, if the internet connection dies no one can do their work.
- If windows was given away for free Microsoft would most likely charge for the hosted apps.

If anything it shows how desperate people are to go with a windows solution even though it's accepted as being the worse one.

who the hell are you to try to shove Linux down their throats?

Whose doing what now? That statement is pretty fucking dumb seeming as no one here has any connections to the Australian government.

It seems you won't be happy unless the Australian government has taken the wrong decision wasting money and not holding it's goal of giving every kid a laptop.

Oh I'm sure they'll thank you two or three years down the line when Microsoft finds it's not economically viable to be hosting those apps anymore for the schools and shuts down the servers rendering the laptops useless without the education software.

Do you also care so much about giving school kids a choice over what textbooks they use too? Seriously, grow up.

Re:Save money

[Antique Geekmeister]

Give out OLPC's, they could distribute easily twice as many machines. And the distributed networking support is far superior to the average Windows or even Linux setup.

Re:Save money

[Anonymous Coward]

Actual specs for the NSW Department of Education tender for 197K laptops.

http://forums.whirlpool.net.au/forum-replies.cfm?t=1096473&p=8

Re:Save money

[Sj0]

I think any kid would prefer local applications to cloud computing. If I was a kid, getting out of school and realising none of my icons work anymore would seem like a raw deal.

I think any kid would prefer not getting viruses. If I was a kid, clicking on a link a friend sent me through MSN and then having my computer crap out for the rest of the school year would suck.

Why is your nerd dick so hard for Windows?

Re:Save money

[Sj0]

You're dead wrong.

The fastest growing segment of the computer industry, netbooks, are substantially run with Linux. These versions are easier to use, less suseptible to viruses, and generally do much better with the available resources than the windows versions of the same machines.

The year of the desktop is past. Linux is on the laptop today. Pick it up on a netbook. I think you'll be surprised at how wrong you are about its viability.

Re:Save money

[TheKidWho]

I already reformatted my laptop a while back from vista to linux and I use it as my main system. Mainly because windows was a resource hog, even for my laptop which is very high end. I agree it's nice for limited resources and may work well on a dedicated machine where the OS is custom fit to the hardware. At that point, a lot of details can be hidden from the user.

Re:Save money

[mab]

"couldn't care less" damn it.

Re:Save money

[Sj0]

We're talking about 4 million netbooks. I don't see the problem.

Re:Save money

[badkarmadayaccount]

Thanks. I needed that.

Re:Save money

[Yfrwlf]

So no one put time into learning Windows they all just magically knew it, and somehow clicking on Apps > Office > OOo Word in Linux takes loads of learning and effort? Wow, news to me.

Does Linux need more improvements? Always, and that will never change, and those improvements are happening. Can it fulfill the needs of many computer users? Yep. Is it free and in general is OSS a good investment? Yep.

Any way, schools should be teaching and promoting OSS, not CSS, and for those areas in which there is a lack of OSS that does what they need, schools should pool their resources and save billions of dollars by paying for OSS development. That's called a long-term investment. It'd be a thousand times cheaper than continuing to pay for CSS, so not only would the parents save their tax money, but they wouldn't have to buy Sally Adobe Creative Suite 3 for $200-500 or whatever.

Amazing how that works I know. So, what part about losing money don't you understand? Or do you still disagree that free alternatives are cheaper? Again, I realize fully that if there are areas where a lot of additional software is needed, that will mean for a bigger initial investment, but a) it still could easily be much much lower than the cost every district pays for CSS, b) it's a long term investment, and c) they can keep using some CSS if needed until funds are available to swap it out.

Lets see, you swap out Windows for Linux in every school district in the U.S. or in the world, that saves you hmmm maybe a few billion dollars right then and there, then you use some of that money to pay some developers to make Reader Rabbit Open Source Edition as well as several other pieces of software if they don't exist yet, then if you still, after all those billions of dollars, have enough money to pay for the development of additional software, run those Windows legacy programs through Wine and wait another year or so until you have your next huge cash injection that you saved by switching, and finished paying for the rest of what's needed.

So, it's very simple, and I hope you now get it. Keep in mind though that regardless, right now there's a lot of money that could be saved by switching to various open source programs, but regardless, it's what needs to at the very least start happening.

The Two Billion Dollar Laptop

[atomicthumbs]

Doubt that this project will catch on.

Re:The Two Billion Dollar Laptop

[inasity_rules]

Sure it will. I'll take 50! Can I write you a check? 2 Billion Zimbabwe dollars is dirt cheap. Why thats barely US$10!

(Moral: Never say "never")

Re:The Two Billion Dollar Laptop

[rabiddeity]

Catch on? No. But it might catch fire!

Re:The Two Billion Dollar Laptop

[Gandalf_Greyhame]

Don't worry about it. This is the Australian Government. They say it is going to cost $2B and take x years to come to fruition, what they mean is that it'll cost $20B and you'll never see it.

I mean here in Melbourne we are STILL waiting for myki

Re:The Two Billion Dollar Laptop

[martin-boundary]

Make it the six billion dollar laptop, add some bionic keyboard and peripheral replacements, and maybe a nuclear battery pack, and you've got yourself the makings of a hit TV series.

Also, in season 3, you could bring in a bionic iBook for a few episodes, who'll get her own spinoff, but make sure it has Ben Browder in it so it'll get canceled after a season and a half.

Teachers were probably the reason.

[Zombie Ryushu]

Of course.

I have a feeling that is what the case will be. The teachers who have Windows desktops in their classrooms took one look at Linux and went "No. You give us Windows or the boxes will wind up collecting dust in the back of the classroom." And that was probably was what alot of the Independent Education software vendors said too. "We have thousands of man hours and workers tied up in this Windows only education software. We will not port our software to Linux. Put Windows on your boxes or we will take our business elsewhere."

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[QuantumG]

Yeah, because ISVs often dictate the terms for government contracts.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[jbolden]

QuantumG is correct also look at the quantities. 4m. 4m units you get to set terms to software vendors.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[Anonymous Coward]

(modding)
The teachers who have Windows desktops in their classrooms took one look at Linux and went "No.
You would think so. As an ex-teacher and a computer consultant, it's the Departments that tell the teachers what to do and not the other way. Feedback from the base up the hierarchy is normally ignored as teachers have no knowledge outside what they are trained to do.
What the Departments and consultants would be saying is:
1. Teacher Training for Ubuntu would be expensive - after all they are the ones who have to show the kiddies how to make it work and use in their particular subject areas. That's a big ask, however in certain subject areas, MACS are used.
2. Consultancy support. That's Departmental based consultancy that are composed of teachers withdrawn from classes and offered full time work to do staff development. Another huge ask. Consultants need to be trained to use the software, right practices etc before they enter a classroom or staffroom.
3. The point of giving kids access to their own personal computers is to prepare them for their working lives and give them opportunities they wouldn't normally have. Now a lot of kids/families have computers, but a significant portion don't or don't have access when they need it. Here it doesn't matter if Windows or Ubuntu get picked as they both serve the purpose well.

Money means everything here, and if the Federal government wants to set aside millions to train consultants to train teachers, then they should have done that 12 months ago.
I bet my union subscription that we'll see Windows XP and not Ubuntu.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[UncleTogie]

What the Departments and consultants would be saying is...

So counter those arguments as thus:

1. The teachers that get sent off for Windows "training" come back nearly as clueless as to usage to make it a laugh at best. Just pick your apps, train a few staff, and have them take it from there. You tell the teachers what to click, and they do so. This is NO different than Windows or OSX. Once those boxes are set up and networked, there is VERY little a teacher needs to do that'd require anything above "user" level.

2. Key phrase here is "teachers pulled from the classroom". If they're already teaching, then they've already been trained on whichever system they're using that year. It isn't like they're going to be installing RAID arrays and other hardware. That's usually saved for the hardware vendor. Once again, this is showing someone how to show someone what to click. No worries.

Here it doesn't matter if Windows or Ubuntu get picked as they both serve the purpose well.

Sure, were it not for the MS plan to host this in "the cloud"... {Oooo, do I hate that 2-word phrase. It's a network, ya doofs. Fraggin' buzzword bingo. {/soapbox}}

Internet access isn't cheap in Australia. Unless they're considering local hosting, MS's apps will eat bandwidth for no reason other than to run a word processor. Multiply that by just a few hundred students, and it starts looking ugly for whomever's paying the ISP. Multiply this by the number of students in Australia, and it's downright nasty.

I could care less which OS they use, as long as they're using SOME sense about it.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[ErkDemon]

Suggested compromise: Placate teachers by keeping Windows XP on the initial batch of laptops, but install OpenOffice instead of MSOffice?

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[ErkDemon]

This is NO different than Windows or OSX. Once those boxes are set up and networked, there is VERY little a teacher needs to do that'd require anything above "user" level.

I dunno, there's a lots more people out there with decent Windows problem-solving skills than the equivalent Linux knowledge. And despite what some people say, there's still parts of linux that aren't as suitable for newbies.

For instance, I was setting up someone's Asus Eee recently, and they were fairly new to the whole windows-icon-mouse thing. The default Eee installation comes with a stupid colour scheme that's all shades of grey - the active window has a grey title strip, the inactive windows have grey title strips, and the interiors of the windows are (of course) grey ... Stupid.

So I figure, no problem, I'll change the default colour scheme to match another computer they used recently. On Windows you just right-click the desktop, a dialog box pops us, you click a tab, and then you select window components and their display properties.

On this version of Linux, you couldn't do it. You couldn't even access alternative Windows schemes unless you opened a terminal window and typed in a load of command-link junk.

And while there were window schemes that the authors were probably very proud of, none of them had the particular colours that I wanted to use. So a simple job that took less than a minute on Windows ended up taking a few hours of R&D, and still wasn't completed satisfactorily. I ended up reading programming specs for raw configuration files before I had an attack of sanity and decided that I was wasting far too much time, and gave up.

One of the first things that many people will want to do when they get a netbook is to change the size of the default window titlebar font, to free up more screen space for documents. Good luck with that if the thing's running the version of linux that comes with the Eee...

I mean, eventually, Linux is going to have all these user-friendly features by default, but it doesn't have them yet, and I can quite see how the people whose job is going to be supporting these things might prefer to stick with "the devil they know" OS for a little bit longer. Depends on exactly how low MS are prepared to go on price.

I guess a good bargaining strategy might be to decide on Ooo rather than MSO, then meet with an MS rep, and say, "We're thinking of going completely over to open source, as a matter of government policy, starting with these student machines. But before we do that, we thought it'd only be fair to ask you guys ... how much would MS be prepared to pay us to put Windows on instead?"

Start with a negative price "It's advertising", and consider using XP if the final negotiated price is zero or negative.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[size8]

Snekking right! The Aussie govt buy 4 million laptops, the software creators should be clambering over each other to get a contract. This would be a wonderful opportunity for Free software. Aussies should start lobbying their representatives *now*, to shun the Microsoft solution and get the children some of the good stuff. As for the "software in the cloud" solution: is Microsoft going to give each child a free internet connection at home? Somehow I doubt it. Which means poorer children won't be able to do their homework. The information divide gets wider...

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[jbolden]

I wouldn't say wider. Wealthier children already have computers they have free access to. Giving them a computer does nothing.

I agree though that "hosting in the cloud" is a terrible idea. At lets say $100 * 4m units the Aussie govt can get some very nice educational software however they want it. Educational games / tools are not like entertainment oriented games in terms of cost of development.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[Tweenk]

Eee runs Linpus Linux, which is utter shit. Nothing can prevent people from creating distros which are useless, but then again, nobody is forced to use them. I don't know why they didn't use a decent distribution like Ubuntu or Fedora and instead opted to torture people with this abomination. It looks like they wanted to show people that Linux netbooks are not in demand through preinstalling an extremely crappy version of Linux that would scare off just about anybody.

For me changing the titlebar font size is only a few clicks: System->Preferences->Appearance, Font tab, pick another font size. Changing the window theme is roughly the same amount of "work". The user-friendly features are there already, you just have to cooperate with a packaging team that doesn't suck.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[ErkDemon]

Well, if the Eee's version of Linux is unusually, er, "non-optimal", then that's a shame, because for most people who've been encouraged to take a risk and buy a non-MS netbook, I'm guessing that that's probably what they've ended up with.

I mean, don't get me wrong, I really hope that Oz does specify a non-MS OS, and I hope that it's a resounding success. I also definitely think they should go with Ooo rather than MSO, and that the "non-MS Office" decision should be an easy choice. It probably also helps that MS isn't an Ozzie company, and that Australians tend to like to think of themselves as pretty independent, self-reliant people. Going with Linux would tie in nicely with that.

But if they end up chickening out and going with XP after all, I can kinda understand that, too. Maybe it'll depend on how risk-averse they're feeling, and how desperate MS are not to "lose" Australia. It'd be great to have an English-speaking country standardising on open-source software, though.

Re:Teachers were probably the reason.

[Anonymous Coward]

"We have thousands of man hours and workers tied up in this Windows only education software. We will not port our software to Linux."

Surely the Windows-only companies would make a port. If a company has the opportunity to sell even one million copies (25% of the machines), porting the software to Linux is a no-brainer. If it takes a thousand man-hours to create the port, that's one hour of work for every thousand copies sold.

What a great alternative

[meist3r]

Owning a netbook that merely runs a basic version of an operating sytem that the company itself wants to get rid off and as the only reason to chose over a full-scale FOSS option I get an MS version of Google Apps? No thanks, take the Linux computers and spend whatever you're saving on some Tux-savvy teachers.

Re:What a great alternative

[Anonymous Coward]

... you're an idiot. Good teachers aren't easy to recruit, most teachers are the education equivalent of 'code monkeys' and the good ones don't usually get a chance to reveal themselves to the higher ups. It's a damn shame too... unfortunately due to severe teacher shortage we don't have a choice but to keep and hire more teaching-monkeys.

Re:What a great alternative

[GFree678]

spend whatever you're saving on some Tux-savvy teachers.

They don't exist. Not in the necessary numbers.

Re:What a great alternative

[lysergic.acid]

i'm sure they exist, they just aren't sought after by schools because everyone uses Windows. if you're only ever putting out ads looking for teachers proficient in Windows, then that's all you'll ever come across. that does not mean that Linux or even Unix-savvy teachers don't exist. and even if there aren't enough at the moment, by actually creating a demand for such teachers you'll start attracting Linux users to the teacher profession, not to mention it'll pressure current teachers to pick up Linux.

i mean, do you think that there was already an existing computer-savvy workforce when PCs were first introduced? no, but people quickly adapted and a workforce was created to fill the immense demand for computer skills. there's no reason to think that it would be any different with Linux instructors.

Re:What a great alternative

[FishWithAHammer]

spend whatever you're saving on some Tux-savvy teachers.

And how many of those exist, exactly? The answer is "not very many."

Face it--Linux remains difficult to use (I say this as an OSS contributor, myself, with a lot of *nix time under my belt). The retraining would be expensive, quite potentially more expensive than any Microsoft infrastructure, and the users would still in all likelihood complain that it's Not Windows. You'd have to have a very compelling reason to force a switch to something nobody uses and nobody wants in order to justify user pushback and retraining costs.

That reason does not, at present, exist. Maybe it will in the future, and I hope it does, but at present it simply isn't there. Sorry. Quit evangelizing and get back to improving the product and maybe that reason will be there.

Re:What a great alternative

[LingNoi]

So what's the difference? They're crap on windows, they're crap on Ubuntu.. I don't see the point you're making here..

Re:What a great alternative

[LingNoi]

What the hell are you talking about?

There's nothing difficult about using Linux in a school environment. What are these laptops going to be used for? Office and Web Browsing at most.

Go away troll.

Re:What a great alternative

[ChunderDownunder]

Teachers maybe not but perhaps the librarian!

Re:What a great alternative

[shoemilk]

Teachers should wear tuxedos?

in the could

[Anonymous Coward]

Ha host the software in the cloud so that the students can access it on their broadband connection.

You know, the one they are totally building.

that just sounds weird...

[xda]

hosting the educational software in a cloud... is this a licensing thing? or HDD space issue?

knowing microsoft it's a licensing thing, and its pretty funny they are going to give the software to every fraking kid in Australia BUT to complicate things with licensing scheme crap. Just put the damn software on the laptop so these kids can focus on learning instead of licensing!

Re:that just sounds weird...

[cyber-dragon.net]

But why? They want to teach them that they are inherently criminals and will be treated as such for the rest of their lives early. If you get them used to it as children they won't know any better as adults.

Re:that just sounds weird...

[rkanodia]

They are Australian...

Cloud == Cheaper??

[Lord Byron II]

I don't think so. It's just a nice way to guarantee that the government will have to buy and maintain some MS servers.

Considering overhead...

[Methlin]

The cheapest EEE should be around $380AUD which should leave plenty for bureaucratic overhead, graft, and kickbacks. However that's the Linux version, the ones that can actually run XP would be around $530AUD which is over budget.

Re:Considering overhead...

[Shados]

When you buy for 2 billion worth, you tend to get better deals, so I'm not sure those numbers will be on the dot.

Re:Considering overhead...

[Elektroschock]

Samsung is currently top of the class.

Re:Considering overhead...

[petermgreen]

All of the EEEs can run XP.

not every kid

[Anonymous Coward]

TFA states that the laptop is being given to "every school aged child" - its actually only every student in senior high school (4th - 6th form)

Computer != Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it's a tool, but wouldn't that $2 billion be better spent on smaller class sizes, better teachers, etc.?

Re:Computer != Education

[TheRaven64]

This is $500 per student. I'm assuming those are Australian dollars, so around $330 US dollars. That buys you somewhere between a quarter and a half of a teacher, for one year, per class of 30. Looking at some real numbers, the starting salary for a teacher in Australia is $41,109, or the same cost as 82 laptops. I couldn't find any data on the average class size in Australia, but buying 1/82 of a teacher per child doesn't sound like it would make much difference, especially since it would only last for one year.

Re:Computer != Education

[Antony-Kyre]

Yeah, I guess you're right.

But are there any studies showing that students having laptops improve their learning to justify such an expense?

Do the students keep the laptops post-graduation?

And, could some overcrowded schools benefit from more teachers to reduce class size? Not all schools, but some.

And, where precisely is this money coming from? The taxpayers, right? Is Australia in a recession like America? Maybe it's time to conserve rather than spend.

Re:Computer != Education

[XDirtypunkX]

Australia is very much a Keynesian oriented economy. Australia is also not currently in recession and has a budget surplus. We may not have a surplus when it's over and we may get dragged into recession by the rest of you, but for now the government can spend to keep the economy from going into recession. In fact, it's the Keynesian way :-).

Because big government contracts coming from the budget surplus (or even a small temporary deficit) give the economy a much needed kick.

Re:Computer != Education

[Anonymous Coward]

Sure, it's a tool, but wouldn't that $2 billion be better spent on smaller class sizes, better teachers, etc.?

No, it wouldn't. Teachers are all well and good, but seriously, how much did you learn in school prior to university? For me, it was just a bit of French and an appreciation of Shakespeare.

Now, those are fine things, and the French is even a useful skill. However, it was because I had an internet-connected computer that I was able to teach myself to read and write Japanese (and speak it to an extent) before I ever even met someone who spoke the language. Books wouldn't have done the trick; I tried books. They didn't work, and after I learned enough from the internet to know what I was doing, I realized that almost everything the books I had read told me was bullshit because the authors figured I was to stupid too handle stuff like non-Romance/Germanic grammar and Chinese characters.

I figure that a lot of people here at Slashdot taught themselves about programming or something in a similar manner, no?

Yes, spending money on the things you mention is good, but self-motivated students won't be able to excel without a computer, and I'm sure not all self-motivated students are as lucky as I was in living in a family that can afford such things.

Re:Computer != Education

[Anonymous Coward]

to stupid too handle

This is the same Anonymous Coward as wrote this post. All I have to say for myself is *facepalm*.

Re:Computer != Education

[im_thatoneguy]

Every kid will probably need to be computer savvy to be employable.

Not every kid needs to know the history of the baltic sea to be employed.

Laptops might not serve the greater educational needs... but it's a skill that needs to be learned.

We all sit on our laptops now poo pooing free laptops. "No kid needs a computer at school!" but we also all probably had a computer waiting for us at home. There are millions and millions of kids in low income households who have no access to a computer. They aren't going to get on the Internet. They aren't going to graduate with the skills necessary to be employable in a modern workforce.

Computer Science is a great subject to get a degree in. But if you barely understand the mouse/window/icon paradigm when you enter college you won't stand a chance.

Slashdot readers are by and large the product of self education. We're the people all students compete against in the workforce. The mere presence of a computer encouraged us to learn it. It's terribly hypocritical to question whether it benefits other students when we ourselves highly value our early and deep interaction with computer technology.

Being computer illiterate is as large of an impediment to employment as being unable to read. Just about everything is computer controlled now. Children need to feel comfortable and confident when working with computer technology. Even if that means they're a bit more distracted.

M$'s software = free when unwanted

[Yfrwlf]

Especially with education. If it came down to it, I think they'd offer it for free to the schools in this situation rather than let Linux be used.

Re:M$'s software = free when unwanted

[FishWithAHammer]

"Unwanted"? Bullshit. Windows is a better choice here because the teachers and the students are already accustomed to it. How many teachers and students out there want Linux? Very few, I'd wager. The cost savings would fall under the problems of retraining and user resistance/pushback. It's just not a smart move.

Now, if you lot did less evangelization and more making Linux an excellent desktop, maybe people would want it. The contribution of code is worth a lot more than "BAWWW NOBODY WANTS OUR SHIT!".

Re:M$'s software = free when unwanted

[Yfrwlf]

Users don't always like change, but most teachers and students would not have a problem with the switch, it's very easy and usable software, and since it'd save billions of dollars globally, it needs to happen. If there's something that needs to be developed that someone needs on top of what already exists, take some of those billions in savings and pay for it's development.

But, since I don't think I can use logical and rational argument against you because I think you're just trolling, here goes: So you're saying we should keep wasting tax money on expensive proprietary shit software because the Linux desktop is too hard to use? Going to Apps > Office > Write is soooooo hard. I think I hurt my wrist doing it. *ouch*

Yeah, you definitely deserve "troll", sorry, you're either really stupid, really ignorant, or just trolling, so I really don't feel like wasting anymore time than this. Go to http://www.ubuntu.com/ and try out the Linux desktop sometime, that's the last help you're getting from me.

Summary incorrect

[kaos07]

to give a laptop to every school-aged child

No, the policy is to give upper high school children in years 9-12 a laptop not "every school-aged child".

Re:Summary incorrect

[Anonymous Coward]

I shake my head every time I see one of these discussions about purchasing a laptop for every(whatever 'every' means) student. Purchasing is the tip of the iceberg here. Have any of these administrators ever purchased and maintained there own laptop/software and been responsible for keeping it running? Then theirs the internet connection costs and speeds required to run Microsofts cloud(vapor) ware.

Many kids have trouble making sure their homework makes it to class, let alone a laptop. You thought you'd heard every excuse in the book before, wait until someone has to explain where their laptop went.

I'm smelling a tax increase...

Re:Summary incorrect

[deniable]

Last thing I heard, it was a $700 tax credit to parents that bought their kids a laptop. Is this a replacement for that? It looks like another election promise is morphing. Where does the year 9-12 bracket come from. That doesn't match any school I've seen. Must be an eastern states thing.

Re:Summary incorrect

[kaos07]

No, it's not a replacement for anything. this was a pre-election promise that is now a policy. The 9-12 "bracket" was what was decided by the Government. It may actually be 10-12, bot 100%. Either way the summary is incorrect and giving laptops to 12 year olds would be ridiculous.

Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS piper

[Reapl]

OK, so Micro$haft have come up with a cost model that in the short term "may" allow the laptops to be purchased for the same money, but ffs can't people look long term with this stuff and not just the initial up front cost.

So you aren't paying the MS tax for office now, but instead you are just amoritising that cost over years of needing larger internet bandwidth to the "cloud". With some of the crap being bandied about down here lets go out on the edge and look at issues with this...
    - The new $8Billion national broadband network of which one core issue is to provide school networks if it doesn't come off then stuffed internet for schools means no cloud that will be useful
    - The great aussie internet fence (like the rabbit proof fence not the great wall)... if you are using the cloud lets hope no cloud server accidently gets put on the black list...
    - I have not seen anything from MS that show the ongoing cost analysis of this
    - how much to upgrade the version of office in the 'cloud'?
    - how and at what cost to get non-MS products into this mysterios 'cloud'?
    - when are MS going to force me to upgrade ALL my netbooks because the latest cloud products don't work on the old core netbook OS? (and it will be forced look at their track record)

Basically, I don't like ther risks or the costings of this cloud computing model for schools like this...

New Windows 7/Vista Part Deux?

[RancidPickle]

Wow, I thought Vista had terrible hardware requirements, but by deciding on Windows, they need a $2,000,000,000AU laptop to run it. What's next for Vista III? Someone will have to build Deep Thought?

Technical reasons?

[luis_schultz]

So, basically, I am very curious about the technical reasons which led the Australian government into considering this option.

Personally, I can see no reason for one to pay money for an architechture/platform depedent, time/space inefficient, closed operational system with no guarantees of freedom from malicious software even from the own vendor while one is next to an architechture independent, extremely efficient and open source costless alternative... except perhaps for either ignorance or corruption or both. Sadly, none of those are actually technical reasons...

That said, I think making the deal with MS going against all technical evidence should constitute a public crime just like it probably would were things out of the IT world.

By the way, MS offering to lower prices for school children often remembers me of a drug dealer selling the first handful of drugs for a low price to an unaddicted youngster.

Re:Technical reasons?

[kaos07]

The reason is that the government needs to consider all reasonable options and can't simply dismiss the biggest software provider in the world without potentially opening itself up to claims that the tender process was prohibitive.

Re:Technical reasons?

[Anonymous Coward]

How about compatibility with tens of thousands of past and future applications?

Re:Technical reasons?

[luis_schultz]

I see the point.

I thought they had already decided not to run windows and are now reconsidering the decision.

Still, I guess they will open up themselves to brutally more critics should they actually go with MS.

Re:Technical reasons?

[Yfrwlf]

It's just much easier and faster to call them dumb. ^^

Re:Technical reasons?

[luis_schultz]

True, but that would make it a lot easier for people to call me a troll. :-)

P.S.: I am not a troll.

Re:Technical reasons?

[LingNoi]

and why would school kids using the laptops to web browser and do office need that?

Re:Technical reasons?

[kaos07]

No, the government never ruled out Microsoft. A third-party report stated that Linux would be the cheapest option and MS too expensive.

Re:Technical reasons?

[luis_schultz]

Oh, sorry then. Wrong complaint timing. :-)

Re:Technical reasons?

[Yfrwlf]

Touché. ^^

Explaining why they're dumb takes so long sometimes though.

Forever?

[__aasqbs9791]

Are they promising to keep the cloud software available for as long as the laptops last, even if that's many, many years? Oh, they aren't? Then no deal. And that's not even considering that software doesn't do you much good if you don't have a good net connection. Much like power windows in a car (see what I did there?) they aren't much good if the power goes out. Cloud software like this needs to be more like power locks. Work both with and without power, they degrade gracefully.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[Yfrwlf]

It's simple, Linux = free. Windows = cost. They want money, they're a business, that's why they push their product. Even if they sold it to them for free, M$ would still benefit from them using it.

So, I don't need to see a cost analysis, and I definitely don't need to see one from M$ to try to justify their existence to me. Money should go into FOSS through paid development, bounties, and support. That should be what all institutions are geared towards, but instead they are stuck in the past.

"Here's a government contract to make the FOSS equivalent of Reader Rabbit for students for our schools. We are now taking bids."

That's the kind of stuff everyone should be seeing from their governments. The amount of money that every single school district spends on individual purchases for close source software, oftentimes it being the same software over and over and over again for all the licenses, would be enough money to pay developers to program every single piece of open source software schools would ever need all over the entire world a hundred times over, and what's more it would be a long-term investment instead of a flash in the pan. When governments wake up to this, the world will be a better place, but they won't wake up until citizens start waking them.

P.S., of course you can apply it to all other branches of governments, to businesses, and everyone else. The amount of money thrown away for temporary software orgasms is astronomical. More cooperation is needed for the new age of software development.

yeah, right!

[Jane Q. Public]

We'll still charge you loads for the OS, but we'll let you use our "cloud applications" real cheap!

What a load of horseshit.

With Ubuntu and Open Office, they can have better OS and better software for free, and not have to rely on an internet connection all the time!

Re:yeah, right!

[Anonymous Coward]

I use Fedora at home exclusively (except for games) and, therefore, Open Office (actually Go-OO). Although as much as I hate MS Operating Systems, I do like their Office suite. I am not sure if this is because of familiarity (I use it at work) or for another reason. Using Open Office I always feel like I'm using an inferior product. I really hope this changes, and the latest iterations/versions go a long way towards achieving this--I in no way want to dilute the tremendous efforts of people working on Open Office. I am just saying that, at this point in time, "better software" might not be the best phrase to use.

What Microsoft didn't say in the article was...

[layer3switch]

Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud

"We'll have software that runs on the device but also leverage Live Services and other applications that run in the cloud."

LITERALLY.

Microsoft 1 :: Children 0

At Redmond, WA, life is good...

Don't forget all the great data mining benefits...

[Anonymous Coward]

... that MS can harvest from observing all the behavioral patterns of another generation of information consumers in the MS "Cloud". I love the the term "cloud"... reminds me of something natural, good, etc... in effect, I think it's a great way to have people relinquish their privacy rights wholesale... reminds me of the good old eula. I think it's slippery slope for both sides and could lead to a confidence "bubble"... like the internet "bubble" and the housing "bubble" in the US... I think it's the same cast of characters, but with different costumes putting on the same play with a different title.

Get off your high horse, kid

[westlake]

Drugs are always affordable when the dealer is trying to get you hooked.

You only have to mouse over to Walmart.com to see Windows becoming very competitive with Linux in the netbook sector.

It's a familiar story.

The OEM Linux box enters the retail market with bottom-feeder specs.

It is never upgraded - even as the entry-level Windows PC approaches the same price point with hardware that was mid-line or better six months or so back.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[FishWithAHammer]

It's simple, Linux = free. Windows = cost.

Now when did retraining suddenly become free?

"Here's a government contract to make the FOSS equivalent of Reader Rabbit for students for our schools. We are now taking bids."

So...in other words, Linux isn't free.

I'm kind of curious how much OSS code you actually contribute, as opposed to whining about how bad Microsoft is.

I am Australian...

[spandex_panda]

and I for one would make a phone call if I knew who to. I would recommend using Linux and in particular striking a deal for support from Ubuntu or Redhat to get a custom OS running on 10" eees or U100 Winds. This way you would pay ~$500 AUD for each and the OS would be top notch. An issue with the Linux on these little laptops is that it seems rushed together. Using a full fledged Linux distro with package management would empower kids like nothing else! What with 2 million kids banging away at python and the few of them who contribute patches contributing patches to Ubuntu it would be a very great thing! Next they support their parents and grandparents building and maintaining their Ubuntu Pcs ... I recommend Microsoft should pay to get Windows on these things!

Re:I am Australian...

[XDirtypunkX]

Make a phone call to your local member and the relevant member of cabinet/shadow cabinet (might be more productive) asking them to ask questions in parliament or raise the issue on your behalf. That's the way to go.

Bad idea, Microsoft or not

[pembo13]

Having all of your apps in a remote "cloud" cannot possibly be a good idea, at least for a school. How much are they going to have to beef up their network just for that alone?

Figures

[Anonymous Coward]

Just like Microsoft to say "But we can be good AND cost-efficient too! (...if we lower our profit margins...)" when they start losing ground.

Re:Get off your high horse, kid

[Ant P.]

It is never upgraded

Well when you're used to an OS that needs reformatting every six months to get it back to a usable speed, I can see why that might be an issue.

Why doesn't the US do this?

[Taken07]

I want a fucking laptop ...

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[Anonymous Coward]

You're still here? I told you that you're embarassing yourself and that you should just get off Slashdot.

We're really bored of the tripe and fish guts posted by FishWithAHammer, it's like reading posts by the anti-Twitter. And like Twitter, you're a troll, so get sensible or piss off.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[LingNoi]

From the article you didn't read..

On the whole, Zymaris believes that embedding Windows architectures in the education system is an expensive resource vacuum.

He claims that state education departments nationwide are spending a combined $100 million on Windows desktop refreshes every three or four years.

Also, Why are you talking about re-training for? These are laptops for the kids not the teachers.

Are you trying to suggest that a kid couldn't figure out how to open and use firefox or open office on a netbook? What nonsense.

Anyone else skeptical at the "cloud computing" bit

[sarkeizen]

But he revealed for the first time that cloud-based applications may be used alongside traditionally licensed software to make Microsoft-based tender proposals more attractive and cost-effective.

âoeNot everything has to run [locally] on the device,â said Watson.

âoeWeâ(TM)ll have software that runs on the device but also leverage Live Services and other applications that run in the cloud.â

If it's a common educational application that could be run locally on the machine anyway. How is it cheaper to run it in the cloud? Remember the context here seems to be about the purchase price of the laptop. It's conceivable that MS is reducing support load but I doubt by very much.

The cloud hosted application is going to have an ongoing cost that the local application isn't.

To me this sounds like MS using a different delivery mechanism to justify a discount that would probably anger their other channel partners.

But really it seems much cheaper to simply send an OS image to the laptop maker.

Missed opportunity

[tregeagle]

Seems like we are headed for another missed opportunity.

There is a pattern. The technical research staff hand in their reports and are sent back to their labs and only then do the Microsoft sales people swoop.

We all know that 'Selling Windows' is Microsoft's business, not making our lives easier. ...sigh, hoping it is not so.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[tregeagle]

Open Goverment (up to a point), seems to be the stuff of dreams.
Wouldn't it be great to know exactly what the process is behind this whole, "billion dollar promise". Probably not much money when you consider how much the education sector here in Oz spends on licensing and re-licensing software that has open alternatives.

Have you ever tried using any gov.au website? They are generally hard to navigate, bureaucratic and bloated with useless information. Admittedly it must be a huge and difficult job corralling all that information but I'd love to see someone trying (hopefully with a little success).

VICtoria, Not N.S.W.

[Anonymous Coward]

Firstly, It is the Victorian(Another state) that has said that windows is 'affordable'

And last of all. It is the same provincial department that has attempted to blame Lenovo for the failure of Site-Based linux servers at all 1800 Schools in Victoria. Which turned out to be an internal blunder. and has banned internal torrent tracker for patch distribution across an gigabit wide area network because of the evil word 'p2p' !

lol..

[Anonymous Coward]

Nice trolling.. Too bad that in the few minutes it took you to type your deluded fantasies, a few thousand people just bought PCs with Linux pre-installed .. ahh.. crap I mean.. OSX .. oh no.. Thats right it was Vista..

Tell me, why is linux even relavant? I mean , 1%? Seriously.. after SEVENTEEN YEARS of development, all they can manage is 1%.. WOW, just WOW. Might want to contact Microsoft, They'll tell linus how to write a decent OS that 90% of the world uses... :(

Bugs like https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/257666 really scare me. If my 2 year old nephew accidentally puts the SD card in... boom.. instant crash. I guess its a good thing I dont use OSS malware.

So, Will you now do the penguin dance for me?

Re:lol..

[Anonymous Coward]

Might want to contact Microsoft, They'll tell linus how to write a decent OS that 90% of the world uses

You cannot be talking about Windows as you mentioned decent. Pray tell, when will Microsoft start to write that decent OS?

And why do people keep with the lies about marketshare. Nobody really knows what the true marketshare of each OS is and each time someone publishes statistics, or people like you keep repeating them, they just publish a lie.

Take your '1%' in SEVENTEEN YEARS of development, how do you get to this figure exactly? Is it from the recent statistics published by Net Applications? (I think that was the company). Well, if so they were web browser figures. Why is this significant? Well, quite a lot of web users are forced to change the user agent on their browsers to identify them as WINDOWS!! So this could mean that Windows is actually lower, far lower, than the 89% they have, while DESKTOP Linux and OS-X may be actually far higher than the statistics show.

Have you considered Linux as a server? Supposedly holds 12.7% of the server market. Not much but consider one thing: This only includes servers that were purchased. Company built servers are not counted and believe me, there are a lot of them out there. Windows is counted in pre-built and home built because all sales of Windows server is counted, whereas Linux downloads are not counted.

Have you been looking at the figures of Linux use recently? Fedora Linux has about 9 million unique IPs using it. But how many of those IP addresses have more than one copy of Fedora running? Me, I have 4 copies so based on me alone you could say there are 36 million copies of Fedora Linux being used. Don't forget that I have not even started on Red Hat Enterprise, Ubuntu, Suse, Debian etc.

What about the laptot (or netbook for you yanks)? Supposedly Linux has taken 30% of that market. No doubt you will show your stupidity and say that Linux version returns are 4 times higher than Windows versions, despite the CEO of Asus negating that statement. The return figure statement comes from MSI, who appears to have been bullied by Microsoft as they have mysteriously dropped their Linux model.

Basically, by spouting the 1% figure you show yourself as a pathetic troll who is unwilling to grasp the reality of Linux's growth despite all of the evidence out there. Think about it for a minute, if Linux really had less than 1% then why are Microsoft so frightened of it and doing their best to destroy the product and its name? IMO Microsoft probably have an idea of what Linux's true marketshare is and that is why they are worried. Like Apple's OS-X, Linux is nowhere near Windows figures yet, but it is growing, and this scares Microsoft

A real PM

[symbolset]

A real PM could get the unit cost down to $300, and use the other $200 for labor cost for the related services and servers.

Windows wins here because they can afford to drive their unit cost into negative numbers. There's no credible antitrust agency that would prevent that.

Which leads credence to the growing opinion that Windows adds negative value. Another word for negative value is 'cost'.

More computers = quick fix

[Cinnaman]

If they pumped that money into the state government school systems, I wonder what effect reduced class sizes, free materials, extracurricular programs etc. would have.
Possibly a lot more than sending crates of laptops across the nation.

It may cheaper at first

[Arancaytar]

But Windows will ultimately cost more to maintain, even if it seems cheaper... now... oh wait...

Happier Children

[Jamie's Nightmare]

Another benefit of this, is the children will be happier. Show me data that proves a majority of people would rather use Linux over Windows. You sure can't use the marketplace to prove it, because in that view Linux is barely noticeable. We aren't talking about IT slobs with BO problems or some nerd with 14 caseless computers in his room. We are talking about people, real people.

Re:Happier Children

[Anonymous Coward]

I think this is where people get it wrong. I have used Windows for a long time. I have spent a lot of time learning new things. As I have done this, I have come to understand that the more you know, the more you realize there is to know about computers. Most people don't know enough about computers to really care about Windows vs. Linux. They just care that their computer works. I work with a lady that pays a kid $150 every 2 months or so to "clean up her computer". It sounds to me like all he does is delete internet files, run virus scans, and defrag her computer. She pays because she doesn't care to know what's going on, she just wants it to work. My wife is exactly the same way. I installed linux on the computer, and showed her how to find her email and the word processor. That's all she cares about. She now prefers to use linux over widows (the computer is dual-booted), because she understands that it is more secure. Also (and more importantly) it is just as easy to get to what she needs. Indeed school children, and most people are the same way. People act like hardcore gamers or tech savvy users are the norm in the general computer user world -- they are not. People will use whatever works for their purpose. most of the time, it is internet surfing and email. I can't tell you the number if times I have heard people say "I'm not that good with computers, all I do is surf/eBay/other and check my email." Hell, that's all most people do!!! I think linux can handle that.

If MS keeps doing this...

[Hymer]

...soon we will be able to download a pirated copy of Windows and send MS $2 (money transfer so we have a proof) and
have a fully legal Windows. Microsoft will not be able to keep the value of Windows up if they start to give it away for almost
free to everyone who "considers Linux".
btw. what is keeping me from buying a $2 legal copy of Microsoft Windows somwhere in the 3rd. world and using it in the US ?
hey... I'm having a Deja-Vu here... didn't IBM do the same with OS/2 Warp3.

Let them...

[WoollyMittens]

Let them enslave themselves and the entire next generation to corporate lock-in. We really don't need all the extra competition when they grow up.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[FishWithAHammer]

The anti-twitter! Except I don't sockpuppet and point out valid issues and...oh, right, I develop Linux-based open-source software! Holy shit, ain't that amazing?

So they get to promote their OS and their cloud

[Anonymous Coward]

Don't trust 'em. They're pure evil

Try Python

[mangu]

I'm an engineer, I do a lot of computational work. As a student I was able to get a $100 student copy of matlab. I tried out free software too mind you, but nothing out there compares(octave doesn't compare, nor does scilab).

I think you are stuck with the wrong language. For me, Python using the SciPy library has been a true Matlab killer. Why limit yourself to a language that's optimized for math when you have an alternative that's just as efficient for scientific, mathematic, and every other sort of program you could imagine?

And if you don't want to throw away your Matlab expertise, Matplotlib has a compatibility layer that present a programming interface in Python that's similar to many Matlab functions.

And all that is Free Software.

Re:Try Python

[TheKidWho]

I've been moving from C/C++ to python/LISP recently so I'm ahead of you there :P But python still lacks simulink for control system analysis, which is where a majority of my computational work is in.

Re:Try Python

[TheKidWho]

Thank you for the link however, I'm going to try it out.

Most of both are uninhabited

[Anonymous Coward]

If you only had one megacity in the US with all 250 million people there, you would still have 2.27 times the land area of the EU.

Would this extreme case be proof that the US cannot get the logistics together?

No.

So why is it that New York State with a far higher population density than Germany or the UK has worse broadband than either (even though the UK's broadband is pretty damn crap)?

hidden costs in the clouds ..

[rs232]

"Microsoft itself claimed it will keep costs per unit down by hosting a lot of the educational software in the cloud rather than on the netbook devices"

How is this going to make Windows-based netbooks less expensive since the cloud is going to absorb any alleged savings in the basic latop version. Who is going to pay to upgrade the network to run on the cloud?

inefficiencies at the DET before SharePoint ..

[rs232]

DET, the source of the 'admission' that Microsoft-based laptops aren't too expensive, is also a long time customer of Microsoft Gold Certified Partner OBS, who according to this article saved $208,000 a year on an intranet. According to the report, the savings occurred as a result of certain inefficiencies such as:

"Because DET uses a range of technology platforms .. When staff needed to apply for access to network resources, they had to fill in a paper form. It could take up to 10 working days before an applicant received access"

"Information about meetings for ITD managers and various DET committees was distributed by email"

"Some staff maintained individual news archives .. on high-availability network or email servers"

"As part of the pilot project, Microsoft engaged independent business analyst BearingPoint to measure the potential impact of the Microsoft solution"

"For almost 10 years, BearingPoint and Microsoft have worked together"

The original Linux USB Key proposal

[Anonymous Coward]

The Australian Federal and State governments have announced programmes to give school kids laptops. However, there are ongoing cost and deployment issues, which are causing these programmes to be delayed or stopped. In response to this, Cybersource has prepared a free, Linux-based solution, for use by Australian Schools, which makes it possible to bring one million new laptops to Australian school children.

"It's a simple proposition; we've prepared an open solution which delivers the best-possible value to education for netbook or laptop roll-outs," suggested Con Zymaris, CEO of long-running Linux firm Cybersource. "Our proposal is to use low-cost netbooks, allocating one per two students, with the students using 'live' Linux USB keys to store their operating system, applications and school-work. This results in a major reduction in installation and maintenance complexity, but still allows the students flexibility in how they use their netbooks and applications."

The solution, in summary:

1. Each pair of students is provided with a new netbook (ie, Eee PC, Aspire One, Dell Mini 9, etc. style laptop).

2. Each individual student is given a 2-4GB USB key, which has a self-booting Linux OS and all the core apps they need. This greatly reduces ongoing IT tech support costs as the software is easy to 'install', update and 'revive' - simply remove the old or non-functioning USB key, pop in the new one, and reboot.

3. The students store all their data on the USB key, and sync that data with a central server. They can access this data through a web- interface, ie, the school Intranet or Learning Management System (eg, Moodle or LAMS, both if which are free software.)

4. The school's existing wireless/wired network is used for connectivity, so no additional cabling is needed. The school's existing power sockets are used to recharge the netbooks; no additional power resources are needed.

5. If *anything* goes wrong with the operating system or applications, the student's USB key is re-imaged with a fresh OS/apps copy, and their data is fetched from the central Intranet server.

6. If the student forgets their USB key at home, they can be issued a temporary one, and their 'data' is always available via the school's file-store Intranet.

7. The USB system and application image comes bundled with hundreds of free and open source applications (eg, Firefox, OpenOffice.org etc), for all manner of school and educational requirements: Maths, Science, Geography, Music theory, Multimedia and Languages.

8. No Linux or additional systems expertise is needed, as the technology to create (ie, image) new USB drives with a Linux distribution exists and is very easy to use. Therefore, there would be no issues with current IT staff not having the knowledge needed to deploy and support these new netbooks.

9. The students can use their USB key on any of the school-supplied netbooks, or, for that matter, any other PC they may have at school, home or in the local library.

"Our expectation is that this programme can be established for a cost of $500 per unit (ie, for 2 students sharing), or $1000 per 4 students. This includes all hardware and software costs. All that remains is the effort of having designated teaching staff image the USB keys, which is a trivial, one-click exercise," said Zymaris.

"We've seen approaches similar to this one work in other countries. For instance, in France, 175,000 'live' Linux USB keys were supplied to Parisian school children[1]. It's clear that with the approach we've outlined above, it is feasible to ensure that every single school child in Australia has access to an educational netbook/laptop for much of the school week, and to have that laptop filled with hundreds of useful educational software applications, all within the budget offered by the Government. Only Linux and Open Source software can deliver on such a promise," continued Zymaris.

"We must also provide our response to what we've been informed is the key criticism against

Warning: Known sockpuppet/troll

[Anonymous Coward]

User maintains more than a dozen sockpuppet accounts on Slashdot.

Warning: Known sockpuppet/troll

[Anonymous Coward]

User maintains more than a dozen sockpuppet accounts on Slashdot.

Warning: Known sockpuppet/troll

[Anonymous Coward]

User maintains more than a dozen sockpuppet accounts on Slashdot.

Smile when you say that...

[westlake]

User maintains more than a dozen sockpuppet accounts on Slashdot.

No he doesn't.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[Yfrwlf]

Yeah basically I have to agree to your post's responders. You're rehashing stupid discussions that everyone else knows but you, but I'll be nice and assume you're not trolling but are serious, and give you your reply.

When I said Linux = free, I was talking about the software. You're correct that training costs money, but that's an extremely temporary issue that doesn't matter. If you stay on Windows and other proprietary software, you will continue to pay YOUR tax money to those companies, whereas if your government *invested* in a FOSS switch, it would be far far cheaper, even if not in the short term which it *would* be, it would still be cheaper in the long run. It takes a small amount of intelligence and wisdom to see that I guess.

Obviously you wouldn't have to switch to OSS in every area right away though, to make the transition less bumpy, but you may end up paying for some proprietary Linux software, but when funds get pooled enough, eventually you'll pay for OSS development for the remaining things you need.

Windows is just an OS, so is Linux. Linux happens to be free and very capable of running any programs that Windows can. Thus, moving to GNU/Linux and/or other free systems is what needs to happen.

As for your last comments, again you show extremely stupid ignorance. OSS is free. What I'm saying is that for those areas where programs are needed that aren't already available, instead of paying money to closed, proprietary solutions, if all that money was pooled together it could pay for the development of an equivalent program that is open source for far, far less. Also, the updates and newer versions would also be far cheaper, because a) you wouldn't have to purchase the software all over again and b) instead you'd be paying for incremental updates, meaning far shorter development time, because you'd already "own" the main backends of the programs since they're open source Software companies make heaps of money for their shitty educational software in particular. I know, I've worked around it and with it, I've worked for districts so I know how it all works and how many $'s are attached to it. Proprietary software companies are profiting off of your tax money simply because they refuse or aren't intelligent enough to work together. When you have cooperation, OSS particularly begins to shine.

Re:Pay now or pay later... you still pay the MS pi

[Yfrwlf]

It takes some wisdom and intelligence to see the long-term picture of open source software. Either they're trolling, stupid, or ignorant. Even if open source software took a greater initial payment to switch to, it is a much greater investment. Even if it did take higher initial costs, you could pull that back by sticking with a few closed pieces of software until the funds were sufficient to get them replaced.